The Sunday Times: Excess all areas

[SpyNote]

Here's a new article promoting the upcoming UK tour. Mick's second autobiography called Play On is coming out next year. Christine's "rather lonely" in Kent, but still won't rejoin the band. She's still hinting at a cameo performance at one of the UK shows. There are some pictures in the article, which you can see here (http://stevie-nicks.info/2013/08/18/excess-all-areas/).

Excess all areas
The Sunday Times (http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/Magazine/article1302331.ece) (UK) (subscription) / Matt Munday / Sunday, August 18, 2013

Mick Fleetwood has survived nearly 50 years in rock’s most dysfunctional band, Fleetwood Mac. Now they’re back on the road

Mick Fleetwood looks like a bohemian Santa with his bushy white beard, pastel shirt, black waistcoat and flat cap. Not all his tales from the rock’n’roll frontline are as jolly as his appearance, though. At one point he has to choke back tears of regret. He has lived a life of such abandon that he admits he is lucky to still be here. “I’ve inherited some good genes,” he explains.

It is often reported that Fleetwood put $8m of cocaine up his nose, and though this is an exaggeration, he says, if he hadn’t stopped consuming the drug so vigorously “the next stop would have been a wooden box”. His former bandmate in Fleetwood Mac, Christine McVie, had earlier told me that the men in the band used to rack out lines of coke like “blooming great rails” – whereas she and Stevie Nicks, the female contingent, would restrict themselves to “ladylike” portions, carried around their necks in jeweled buckles that had dainty silver spoons inside. “It was the 1970s,” she shrugged. “There was a lot going around.”

“I’m not advocating cocaine at all, but the truth is, I had a good time,” says Fleetwood. “But then, without realising it, you’re getting too out of it. You’re sleeping for three days, or you’re up for nine days or whatever. And eventually you don’t feel good at any time.”

He quit taking coke “a long time ago,” but the booze has been harder to let go. “I haven’t been drunk for five months now,” he announces. With a 46-date tour of America about to begin soon after we meet, followed by European dates including four in Britain in September, he has had to shape up. “I knew I was drinking too much,” he says. “And the more I don’t drink, the more I realise I was really drinking too much.”

‘I was still behaving like I was 32 years old, and you can’t be doing that ****. I suppose I was late getting off the bus’

Why still so excessive? Fleetwood is 66 — aren’t these meant to be the golden years, where living is easy? “We’re all still learning to take care of ourselves,” he says, “because Fleetwood Mac have worked really hard at pushing some envelopes. And of course you’ve got to change your behaviours, but I’ve had moments — really not that long ago — where I wasn’t getting it. I was still behaving like I was 32 years old, and you can’t be doing that ****. I suppose I was late getting off the bus.”

Perhaps it has also been the process of writing his autobiography, Play On, due to be published by Little, Brown next year, that has helped Fleetwood to take stock and start implementing some changes. Toning down his lifestyle has not been easy — playing rock’n’roll is practically all he has ever done (aside from dabbling as a restaurateur, with rather mixed results).

He was born in 1947 in Redruth, Cornwall, to a military family. His grandfather, John, had been killed at Gallipoli in the Great War, and his father, Mike, had served in the RAF in the Second World War. Like many army brats, Mick was sent to boarding school, but hated it because he was an undiagnosed dyslexic, and as a result “didn’t learn ****”.

This gave him a lifelong fear of structured learning. “To this day, I don’t know what I’m doing,” he confesses. “I actually don’t know what a verse is, or a chorus. You can sing a song and show me, but don’t give me a bit of paper and say, ‘Oh, you know that bit there…’ ”

He says he is nervous about the tour, and still suffers from severe stage fright. “I’m just hoping I don’t forget all my parts.”

It seems extraordinary that he still feels so shaky — despite having spent the last 47 years performing in one of the most commercially successful British rock bands since the Beatles.

“It goes way back,” he says. “So this is going to be interesting. I’ll have a glass of wine beforehand, but I don’t want to drink myself into a stupor just so I don’t get frightened. If I have four glasses of wine during a show, that’s cool — so long as I don’t get on the plane and finish off two more bottles.”

It is also surprising how raw he seems. I suspect he may be playing up to his own mythology a little — he is a self-confessed drama queen — but the disquiet seems real. I ask if his fear of not feeling is ultimately the fear of losing his creativity. “It’s more a fear of losing my life,” he says, dramatically.

Fleetwood left school as soon as he could, at 16, and moved to London to join the thriving blues scene. In this milieu he would meet bass guitarist John McVie, son of a west London sheet-metal worker, and they formed a band in 1967 with the guitarist Peter Green, who was a big star back then, but also a troubled soul who hated the limelight. So Green named the group after its rhythm section — Fleetwood Mac.

Success would follow, as did numerous line-up changes. Peter Green dropped too much acid and developed schizophrenia, and a series of other guitarists each had their own failings. One, Danny Kirwan, was highly strung and wept while he played; another, Bob Weston, was sacked after an affair with Fleetwood’s first wife, Jenny; and a third, Jeremy Spencer, popped out of a hotel in Los Angeles to buy a newspaper, joined a religious cult and never returned.

When things fell apart it was often Mick who rallied the troops and kept things going — he even became the band’s manager for a spell. “Mick would never let it end,” says Christine McVie. “Fleetwood Mac is his baby.”

Having moved to America with the band in the early 1970s after a career lull, Fleetwood met two penniless musicians in LA, Lindsey Buckingham and Stevie Nicks, then a couple, and invited them to join.

‘We’re totally driven by drama. I think we’re calming down a bit, but we’re terrified of not feeling. It’s sort of an addiction, really’

The first record they did together in 1975, Fleetwood Mac, was a hit that sold 5m copies. But their career zenith arrived a year later with the release of the follow-up, Rumours. To date, the album has sold more than 40m copies and is the ninth bestseller of all time. And it is still winning them new fans: it was reissued in Britain in January this year and went straight into the album chart at No 3.

What made rumours such a powerful piece of work was an almost perfect storm of dysfunction that engulfed its creators — and which still affects the band now. As they recorded the album in Sausalito, California, Lindsey Buckingham and Stevie Nicks’s 10-year relationship was ending; the eight-year marriage of the other couple in the band, Christine and John McVie, had just imploded; and Fleetwood’s marriage to the model Jenny Boyd, with whom he has two daughters, had also recently collapsed.

To make matters even more intense, their failed relationships became the subject of the bitter breakup lyrics, which were artfully juxtaposed with sweet soft-rock melodies. But despite the shared heartbreak (and mutual loathing, depending on who was in the room together), all could hear the music’s potential. Songs such as “Dreams” and “Go Your Own Way” would take them to the top of the charts in record-breaking style — “Michael Jackson territory” is how Lindsey Buckingham describes it. So they famously anaesthetised themselves with cocaine from an ever-present velvet bag to endure the recording. Keep numb and carry on.

“Imagine your relationship fell apart, but you had children, and you both have to put your **** away to some extent and make sure the children aren’t damaged,” Fleetwood says. “The band was our child. We got through it, and not without some damage emotionally. Plus, it was the only thing we knew.”

Well, almost. Fleetwood also knew how to party. The bandmate he is most similar to in this regard, he says, is Stevie Nicks — the witchy blonde rock goddess whose long, and ultimately successful, struggle with cocaine and tranquillisers is well documented. “We’re totally driven by drama,” says Fleetwood. “I think we’re calming down a bit, but we’re terrified of not feeling. So if nothing’s happening you’ll worry yourself into creating a drama — just so you’ve got something to react to. It’s sort of an addiction, really.”

And a highly lucrative addiction it has been, thanks to Fleetwood Mac’s ability to convert personal tragedy into musical alchemy. Rumours made the five members of Fleetwood Mac — the “classic” line-up — extremely rich. Estimates of the net worth of Lindsey Buckingham (guitar, vocals, production), Stevie Nicks (vocals, tambourine), Christine McVie (keyboard, vocals) and John McVie (bass) range from $45m up to $65m.

Estimates for Mick Fleetwood’s haul are markedly more moderate: around $9m. This is partly because he has not been as prolific a songwriter as other members: he’s the drummer, so earns more from touring than from royalties. He has also lost a fortune on bad property deals and failed restaurants, though this hasn’t deterred him from opening another, Fleetwood’s on Front St, on the Hawaiian island of Maui, where he lives (he recently separated from his third wife, Lynn). A “Mick’s Margarita” from the cocktail menu includes tequila, elderflower liqueur, fresh-pressed lime juice, agave nectar and is “capped with Mick’s Pinot Noir.”

For years after Rumours, the private-jet lifestyle kept running into turbulence. The band were papering over the cracks, which must surely have widened when Fleetwood and Nicks had a fling, although Buckingham, her ex, denies it caused a problem. “It was a reflection of the times we were living in,” he told me. “You can’t separate individual acts from the times. Stevie was prolific in that way, shall we say, and so was Mick — and so was I. So it never really bothered me at all. I had dealt with the hurt of losing Stevie long before that.”

But at least Mick was gentleman enough to tell Buckingham about the affair in person before the latter heard any, um, rumours. “He came over to my house and sat me down at my kitchen table and said, ‘Me and Stevie are an item,’ ” says Buckingham. “And I said, ‘Oh, OK.’ Because, really, should I have been surprised?”

The bubble was always going to burst. Christine McVie went on to date the Beach Boy Dennis Wilson — another renowned sybarite — before eventually burning out in the late 1990s, selling her LA mansion and moving to a Kent farmhouse to lead a “solitary life.” This, she told me, has recently become “rather lonely — apart from my brother and sister-in-law I still don’t know anyone down here.” She keeps in touch with the band, but insists she has no plans to rejoin and won’t be performing on this tour (she hasn’t ruled out a cameo appearance for the British dates, however). Buckingham, meanwhile, left Fleetwood Mac for nine years, before returning in 1996.

“We were Bonnie and Clyde, me and Stevie, and Lindsey got fed up with it,” Fleetwood says. “But he left out of fear — he didn’t want to be around us, because we were too stoned. Only recently, he admitted that he was really frightened that Stevie was going to die, and he didn’t want to be around it. That’s a really deep-rooted regard for someone. And that’s, ah…” his voice is suddenly trembling and his eyes are moist, but the British stiff upper lip fast reasserts itself. “That’s part of our whole thing.”

‘We were Bonnie and Clyde, me and Stevie, and Lindsey got fed up with it,’ Fleetwood says

Predictably, this isn’t quite the way Buckingham recalls it. “Frightened may not be the right word,” he says evenly. “It was more frustrated. Or maybe I was frightened, but for myself. Everyone in that subculture thought that drugs were what you had to do; that turned out to be a load of crap. You can be just as creative when you’re sober. There was this idea that we were somehow rejecting values we didn’t believe in. And the irony was that we ended up becoming just as decadent as the things we were railing against.”

As the Fleetwood Mac tour got underway, news broke that Fleetwood’s third marriage had crumbled — it was reported that he had filed for joint custody of his twin 11-year-old daughters. I wondered whether he would find succor among his bandmates, and whether he would conquer his demons on the road.

Months later, I spoke to Stevie Nicks and asked how things were going. “I don’t know what’s come over Mick, but he’s on fire,” she said. “He’s playing better than he’s ever played. He’s rocking on that stage.”

According to Nicks, Fleetwood had been venting everything during the shows — but not in the bar afterwards. The party animal had remained in his cage. “I’m up there onstage looking at everybody and thinking this is amazing, because we’re all sober up here,” Nicks intoned in a husky voice full of warmth and melancholy. “Nobody’s drunk. And we’re all having an incredible time.”

Nicks also revealed that she and Buckingham had only recently made their peace, after falling out in 2003 over creative differences (neither will elaborate). Oh, the drama — when will it ever end? Anyway, Nicks had promised Fleetwood that she would try to repair the relationship before the tour.

“I said to Lindsey, ‘We have got to change this. We cannot be enemies for one more day,’ ” Nicks recalled. “Because you never know — things happen. You don’t know if you’ll ever tour again. So we have to walk on stage hand in hand, and we have to mean it.”

And, against all odds, that’s what they appear to have done. Peace has finally broken out among the ranks of Fleetwood Mac. God only knows whether it will last. There is even talk of a new album — the band brought out a four-track EP, Extended Play, in April, their first new material for 10 years, and it has been warmly received by fans and critics. Naturally it’s full of elegiac songs about dysfunctional relationships and aching hearts.

“This might sound corny,” Fleetwood had said to me, just before we said goodbye, “but the biggest rumour about Fleetwood Mac is that we don’t really like each other. I understand why people would think that, after everything we’ve said and done. But the reality is, we love each other. We just push the wrong buttons.”

Fleetwood Mac tour the UK and Ireland this autumn; Rumours (Deluxe Reissue) is out now

[michelej1]

I love Lindsey saying that "frightened" might not be the word for it and toning down the high blown romantic spin.

Michele

[desertangel]

Interesting read... enjoyable with some good nuggets. Thanks for sharing!

[vivfox]

Excellent article. I'm guessing the falling out between Lindsey and Stevie in 2003 was the result of Stevie not being happy with Lindsey's productions of her SYW songs.

[michelej1]

Excellent article. I'm guessing the falling out between Lindsey and Stevie in 2003 was the result of Stevie not being happy with Lindsey's productions of her SYW songs.

Well, yes, I think that was true, but then they seemed to have made up over that and gone on to fight about something else at the end of the tour in
2004. I don't think they were fighting the whole tour. I think things got off to a shaky start, but then mended, but then there was some kind of blow up at the end of the tour.

Michele

[louielouie2000]

I wonder if these quote snippets from Christine are new, old, or simply second hand information purveyed by Mick/Stevie/Lindsey?

I think the creative differences alluded to from Say You Will are more extensive than just Lindsey's treatment of Stevie's songs. It has to do with everything- the fight over SYW being a double/single album, the fight over who would mix SYW, the fact that the band had basically recorded Lindsey's songs & forged a direction for the album before Stevie arrived; the whole thing was an ego battle. Stevie lost in a lot of ways, and that undoubtedly angered her. The band started recording without her, they pretty much laid out the sound & direction of the album without her input, she didn't get her mixer (Chris Lord Alge), she had to supply more songs than she wanted to, she had to agree to let Lindsey make her songs edgier so they'd match his, etc. The only way she really won was by denying SYW being a double album; but since the album had 18 songs on a single disc, she didn't get paid for half the songs she contributed. To top things off, Say You Will was the poorest selling album Stevie had been involved in. I can see how the whole thing made her sore. At the same time, she is the one who dawdled & arrived on the scene too late to really take ownership in Say You Will. Maybe they all learned something from the experience, and will correct these wrongs with one last album. I have my doubts after seeing what they did with Extended Play, though.

[MikeInNV]

I wonder if these quote snippets from Christine are new, old, or simply second hand information purveyed by Mick/Stevie/Lindsey?

I think the creative differences alluded to from Say You Will are more extensive than just Lindsey's treatment of Stevie's songs. It has to do with everything- the fight over SYW being a double/single album, the fight over who would mix SYW, the fact that the band had basically recorded Lindsey's songs & forged a direction for the album before Stevie arrived; the whole thing was an ego battle. Stevie lost in a lot of ways, and that undoubtedly angered her. The band started recording without her, they pretty much laid out the sound & direction of the album without her input, she didn't get her mixer (Chris Lord Alge), she had to supply more songs than she wanted to, she had to agree to let Lindsey make her songs edgier so they'd match his, etc. The only way she really won was by denying SYW being a double album; but since the album had 18 songs on a single disc, she didn't get paid for half the songs she contributed. To top things off, Say You Will was the poorest selling album Stevie had been involved in. I can see how the whole thing made her sore. At the same time, she is the one who dawdled & arrived on the scene too late to really take ownership in Say You Will. Maybe they all learned something from the experience, and will correct these wrongs with one last album. I have my doubts after seeing what they did with Extended Play, though.

I'm not sure I would say dawdled. She was genuinely busy releasing, promoting, and touring behind TISL. Beginning with Mirage, the band has always taken advantage of the fact that they can get some of the work done without Stevie, and then incorporate her stuff when time allows. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it wouldn't be beneficial to have her there for all the sessions (Tango would have been better), but it seems as much a band decision as it does hers.

[michelej1]

The only way she really won was by denying SYW being a double album; but since the album had 18 songs on a single disc, she didn't get paid for half the songs she contributed.

Based on DR, I thought Lindsey ate the costs of the excess songs, since he is the one who pushed for them and he used the tour to make up the money. Michele

[michelej1]

I wonder if these quote snippets from Christine are new, old, or simply second hand information purveyed by Mick/Stevie/Lindsey?



The "blooming great rails" quote seems new. So, if she told that to this writer, she probably said it some time this year, maybe not recently. More like when she returned to England after her visit to Hawaii.

Michele

[CADreaming]

I love Lindsey saying that "frightened" might not be the word for it and toning down the high blown romantic spin.

Michele

Poppycock. Either way, he doesn't mind playing that card now. I don't know why he can't say he was frightened about it. Based on Debbie's personal conversation with him about Stevie, it seemed obvious he was very frightened for her - and I'm sure frustrated, concerned, angry, flippant. All the gamut of emotions that happen when someone you care about is an addict and you are dealing with that directly or indirectly. And, maybe it did open his eyes to his own need to watch where he was headed.

Excellent article. I'm guessing the falling out between Lindsey and Stevie in 2003 was the result of Stevie not being happy with Lindsey's productions of her SYW songs.

Which is why she called him up desperate to get him to do Soldiers Angel, because he was the only one who could do it.

I get so tired of the SYW fight speculation. But also because this "we made up finally" is already insinuating it was only a recent thing and has nothing to do with the alleged SA make up which happened in 2010....

[aleuzzi]

A pretty good article.

The Danny Kirwan weeping detail was misplaced in a list of things that were fundamentally negative. From what I've read, he used to weep because he felt the music so deeply, which his bandmates respected.

The Christine news doesn't surprise me at all. Is it too much to hope that some of that loneliness she feels on her big estate will spur her into another creative project? Perhaps getting some of her beloved solo-band lads together for some more music making?

So glad Lindsey corrected the rather absurd notion that he left the band because he was frightened for Stevie and Mick, that he was fed up with their Bonnie and Clyde antics.

[CADreaming]

So glad Lindsey corrected the rather absurd notion that he left the band because he was frightened for Stevie and Mick, that he was fed up with their Bonnie and Clyde antics.

Wow. It's absurd to be frightened someone might die...and not just anyone, but someone you share a deep history with? I mean, regardless of animosities, I think that unless you have ice water running through your veins it would definitely be on the emotional front burner.

[bombaysaffires]

Wow. It's absurd to be frightened someone might die...and not just anyone, but someone you share a deep history with? I mean, regardless of animosities, I think that unless you have ice water running through your veins it would definitely be on the emotional front burner.

I think that was part of the mix, but it certainly wasn't the main or only reason he left the band, which is how some folks read the tone of the article. Clearly he left for a lot of artistic and professional/business reasons about how the band was going creatively as much as Stevie's drug addiction. I think he was very concerned about that personally, but he was also concerned with how it impacted the band's ability to get good work done and also the age-old tensions between his creative direction and that of other band members. I can see where some might think it's just a tad too simplistic for the article to imply Stevie's drug addiction and/or her relationship with Mick on a personal level were the main reasons he left. He left because on ALL levels (personal, creative, business etc) that group of people were one effed up mess and he just didn't want to deal with it anymore. Can't say I blame him. But you have to wonder if the creative differences were still the same and neither Stevie nor Mick were as addicted as they were would he have left anyway? I suspect yes.:shrug:

[michelej1]

Wow. It's absurd to be frightened someone might die...and not just anyone, but someone you share a deep history with? I mean, regardless of animosities, I think that unless you have ice water running through your veins it would definitely be on the emotional front burner.

No, it's not absurd. But Lindsey has rejected that language. It sounded overblown when Stevie said it and, Mick is her twin and followed suit. It seems quite natural to me that Lindsey would say that's not exactly how he would describe it.

It doesn't mean that anyone feels that you can't be concerned for an addict. That's not what's at issue here. It's Lindsey describing his own feelings, as opposed to Mick and Stevie's drama. As you know, Lindsey loves to wax sentimental on his own and will do so on many subjects concerning himself and Stevie. As you say, he "plays that card" if he wants. But if he chooses to express himself differently on this subject, it makes sense to me, because I think it's more in keeping with how he felt. And I thought Stevie's comments were princessy.

It doesn't mean he doesn't care for her and has not felt concern for her. I think he felt concern for her and Mick at the time, but I also think they were driving him crazy. And he left for self-preservation. Boo hoo I didn't want to see the love of my life die. Give me a break. When you are going through something, even with people you love very much, sometimes you get so frustrated with their behavior that you just think in terms of getting away from it. You don't think in terms of "what if I might lose them." I know someone whose son robbed her for drugs and she was devastated and wanted nothing more to do with him. When he died, she never stopped mourning the loss and the possessions he stole seemed like the least important thing in the world. But that was in the face of his actual death. When he took the things, she wanted to kill him herself.

If Lindsey says he wasn't feeling that fear for Stevie in 1987, it sounds perfectly logical to me and nothing like denial. People don't live in a fairy bubble all the time. His comments sound closer to truth than denial to me, which doesn't mean he won't say very high, romantic and overblown things about Stevie next month. I'm sure he will.

Michele

[shackin'up]

I still think that the inclusion of 'come' on the album AND the tour, irritated the s**t out of Stevie too, because people would think that song was about her. She had a point there. Although I adore the song and it's liveversion, it should have been what it originally was: a Lindsey Buckingham-track, not a Fleetwood Mac-song.

[michelej1]

He left because on ALL levels (personal, creative, business etc) that group of people were one effed up mess and he just didn't want to deal with it anymore. Can't say I blame him. But you have to wonder if the creative differences were still the same and neither Stevie nor Mick were as addicted as they were would he have left anyway? I suspect yes.:shrug:

I think he would have at least done the tour, if they'd had a calmer recording process. He seemed to have planned for Tango to be their last album anyway, but I don't think he intended things to end so abruptly. I think it would have been worth it to him to stay with FM closer to launching his own solo album, if he could have just tolerated that environment, but he couldn't. Even today, he still complains about the chaos of the trailer at his home and how all the goings on upset his girlfriend. Stevie was off on the Petty/Dylan tour and things just disintegrated completely after that.

In fact, I don't think he became worried for Stevie's life until the BTM tour when he saw them. I don't think her mortality (as opposed to just everyone's craziness, including his own) was on his mind in 1987.

Michele

[Ulpian]

The Christine news doesn't surprise me at all. Is it too much to hope that some of that loneliness she feels on her big estate will spur her into another creative project? Perhaps getting some of her beloved solo-band lads together for some more music making?

To some extent I was saddened to hear that Christine is lonely. However, she is to some extent the author of her own misfortune by making the drastic changes she made in '98 and, if some reports are to be believed, then retreated behind her gates and rarely ventured out into the world. I hope some writing and maybe a new album will encourage her to get back out there and remind everyone what a brilliant person she is.

[CADreaming]

No, it's not absurd. But Lindsey has rejected that language. It sounded overblown when Stevie said it and, Mick is her twin and followed suit. It seems quite natural to me that Lindsey would say that's not exactly how he would describe it.

It doesn't mean that anyone feels that you can't be concerned for an addict. That's not what's at issue here. It's Lindsey describing his own feelings, as opposed to Mick and Stevie's drama. As you know, Lindsey loves to wax sentimental on his own and will do so on many subjects concerning himself and Stevie. As you say, he "plays that card" if he wants. But if he chooses to express himself differently on this subject, it makes sense to me, because I think it's more in keeping with how he felt. And I thought Stevie's comments were princessy.

It doesn't mean he doesn't care for her and has not felt concern for her. I think he felt concern for her and Mick at the time, but I also think they were driving him crazy. And he left for self-preservation. Boo hoo I didn't want to see the love of my life die. Give me a break. When you are going through something, even with people you love very much, sometimes you get so frustrated with their behavior that you just think in terms of getting away from it. You don't think in terms of "what if I might lose them." I know someone whose son robbed her for drugs and she was devastated and wanted nothing more to do with him. When he died, she never stopped mourning the loss and the possessions he stole seemed like the least important thing in the world. But that was in the face of his actual death. When he took the things, she wanted to kill him herself.

If Lindsey says he wasn't feeling that fear for Stevie in 1987, it sounds perfectly logical to me and nothing like denial. People don't live in a fairy bubble all the time. His comments sound closer to truth than denial to me, which doesn't mean he won't say very high, romantic and overblown things about Stevie next month. I'm sure he will.

Michele

Yeah, I really get all that. I still think its absurd to think its absurd of Lindsey to have that emotion. One day when my addict brother dies, I'm sure my anger at him and his addiction will lessen, but as angry as I am now and as hard as I have to be in order not to play enabler, I'm still - everyday- frightened he might die. Or maybe more frightened that that day will be today.

So, I don't care what year it was or what day even it was or even if he doesn't want to admit it 25 years later in an interview. Lindsey was certainly afraid/frightened about Stevie dying. And, a lot of other people were too.

[Desiree]

Yeah, I really get all that. I still think its absurd to think its absurd of Lindsey to have that emotion. One day when my addict brother dies, I'm sure my anger at him and his addiction will lessen, but as angry as I am now and as hard as I have to be in order not to play enabler, I'm still - everyday- frightened he might die. Or maybe more frightened that that day will be today.

So, I don't care what year it was or what day even it was or even if he doesn't want to admit it 25 years later in an interview. Lindsey was certainly afraid/frightened about Stevie dying. And, a lot of other people were too.

Yep, yep, yep...all the way...you sound like someone who truly knows about dealing with and loving an addict...me too, so many emotions, mostly bad when it is at an end and you know it! And, the fear, yes, LB, you were scared ****less so just admit it, fool! You are human, right? I think LB was in just as much trouble as SN, too. Why they choose to play that down, I don't know, but he was just plain CRAZY at that point and it took years for him to pull himself together too! I try hard to like LB but sometimes it's hard because like Stevie, he says the stupidest crap sometimes! SN was a crazy DRUG ADDICT... LB was a CRAZY drug addict...there, done!:sorry:

[aleuzzi]

Wow. It's absurd to be frightened someone might die...and not just anyone, but someone you share a deep history with? I mean, regardless of animosities, I think that unless you have ice water running through your veins it would definitely be on the emotional front burner.

I don't think it's absurd for someone to be frightened another might die...but Stevie and Mick claim their behavior had Lindsey so frightened for their lives that he quit the band. THAT is absurd, especially since it was only recently offered as a reason.

I think Mick and Stevie are doing here what Mick says in the article each is prone to do: create drama in the absence of drama.

That's me. Someone could see it another way, obviously.

[MikeInNV]

For me it's a timing thing. Lindsey put up with all the craziness during the making of Tango. When he quit the band, just before they were ready to head out on tour, Stevie was in pretty good shape. I guess she was already on Klonopin, but at that point it was probably a reasonable dose. She looks and sounds great in all of the Tango promotion, videos, interviews, etc. I would think any fear he may have had would have subsided by that time.

[CADreaming]

Yep, yep, yep...all the way...you sound like someone who truly knows about dealing with and loving an addict...me too, so many emotions, mostly bad when it is at an end and you know it! And, the fear, yes, LB, you were scared ****less so just admit it, fool! You are human, right? I think LB was in just as much trouble as SN, too. Why they choose to play that down, I don't know, but he was just plain CRAZY at that point and it took years for him to pull himself together too! I try hard to like LB but sometimes it's hard because like Stevie, he says the stupidest crap sometimes! SN was a crazy DRUG ADDICT... LB was a CRAZY drug addict...there, done!:sorry:

Yes, more than one, unfortunately. I am curious about the extent of the others' problems too & if there was rehab. Especially with Mick's new revelations about drinking.

I don't think it's absurd for someone to be frightened another might die...but Stevie and Mick claim their behavior had Lindsey so frightened for their lives that he quit the band. THAT is absurd, especially since it was only recently offered as a reason.

I think Mick and Stevie are doing here what Mick says in the article each is prone to do: create drama in the absence of drama.

That's me. Someone could see it another way, obviously.

Oh! Ha! Yeah ok - I see what you mean. I think its rooted in truth, with a heavy dose of embellishment.
For me it's a timing thing. Lindsey put up with all the craziness during the making of Tango. When he quit the band, just before they were ready to head out on tour, Stevie was in pretty good shape. I guess she was already on Klonopin, but at that point it was probably a reasonable dose. She looks and sounds great in all of the Tango promotion, videos, interviews, etc. I would think any fear he may have had would have subsided by that time.

Great point! I didn't think of that. She was seemingly on an upswing. Although her attacking him may have given him reason to think otherwise.

[vivfox]

This thread is a fun read I am enjoying immensely.

[michelej1]

I don't think it's absurd for someone to be frightened another might die...but Stevie and Mick claim their behavior had Lindsey so frightened for their lives that he quit the band. THAT is absurd, especially since it was only recently offered as a reason.



Right. Just as this isn't the first time they claim they've made up, this isn't the first time they've discussed his reasons for leaving in 1987. In 1997, Mick said that Lindsey was scared to be around him, Mick, because he thought the continued exposure might make Lindsey go into drug (or alcohol) overdrive too. That's what Lindsey was telling Mick when they first reunited and it's in line what Lindsey is himself saying about his feelings NOW.

Lindsey is not shy about talking about his feelings for Stevie. Even in 1997 he was discussing how she was so much like the girl he used to live with and loving things up. He's not afraid to expose softness or affection. In fact, if anything he gets a little too sappy (i.e. the crying in DR -- and actually, the way he choked up over John, I guess he was afraid John might die at one point too -- although I guess that didn't make him leave the band:laugh:).

He's not coy or careful about putting his heart on his sleeve, if he feels like it. If he'd actually felt he left the band because he was scared she was going to die, I think he'd have said it. Then and now.

Michele

[michelej1]

So, I don't care what year it was or what day even it was or even if he doesn't want to admit it 25 years later in an interview. Lindsey was certainly afraid/frightened about Stevie dying. And, a lot of other people were too.

I don't think a lot of people were scared about Stevie dying in 1987. As Klonopin got a bigger grip on her, then I think that changed. But with the cocaine and her Betty Ford stint, I don't think they thought things were near the fatal point. I think they just thought she was out of control as far as being rational or reliable, professionally.

Michele

[michelej1]

To some extent I was saddened to hear that Christine is lonely. However, she is to some extent the author of her own misfortune by making the drastic changes she made in '98 and, if some reports are to be believed, then retreated behind her gates and rarely ventured out into the world.

I don't know who the comment came from (my money is on Mick), but I think it answers our question of whether that ring she had on her left hand was a wedding ring. Sounds like it wasn't.

Michele

[CADreaming]

I don't think a lot of people were scared about Stevie dying in 1987. As Klonopin got a bigger grip on her, then I think that changed. But with the cocaine and her Betty Ford stint, I don't think they thought things were near the fatal point. I think they just thought she was out of control as far as being rational or reliable, professionally.

Michele

Yeah, that is true, I guess.

Well, it wouldn't be the first time they had their dates wrong. :laugh:

[Ulpian]

I don't know who the comment came from (my money is on Mick), but I think it answers our question of whether that ring she had on her left hand was a wedding ring. Sounds like it wasn't.

Michele

" Christine McVie went on to date the Beach Boy Dennis Wilson — another renowned sybarite — before eventually burning out in the late 1990s, selling her LA mansion and moving to a Kent farmhouse to lead a “solitary life.” This, she told me, has recently become “rather lonely — apart from my brother and sister-in-law I still don’t know anyone down here.” "

That's Christine saying it herself, though, right?

I don't want to be critical, but 15 years is long enough to get to know other people if you make the effort. If you don't - and by all we have read post-'97 Christine has intentionally kept to herself - it's difficult for others to feel too sympathetic when you end up feeling lonely.

I love her, but I think she maybe needs to snap out of this hermit thing and find a man / friends / a band to keep her busy ;)

[michelej1]

That's Christine saying it herself, though, right?

Yes, you're right.

I don't want to be critical, but 15 years is long enough to get to know other people if you make the effort. If you don't - and by all we have read post-'97 Christine has intentionally kept to herself - it's difficult for others to feel too sympathetic when you end up feeling lonely.

I love her, but I think she maybe needs to snap out of this hermit thing and find a man / friends / a band to keep her busy ;)

I thought she was surrounded by not only her brother, but nieces and nephews and their offspring visiting all the time. I know she probably felt when her dad died, she hadn't spent the time with him that she should have and she didn't want that to happen with the rest of the family, but find a happy medium.

Well, she has that place in London still, I imagine. Maybe when she goes there she can reconnect with people. But yes, after 2 years, if I found myself feeling lonely, I definitely would have changed up how much time I spent there. Go there when you want to unplug, but don't live there full time.

Michele

[jbrownsjr]

Yes, you're right.



I thought she was surrounded by not only her brother, but nieces and nephews and their offspring visiting all the time. I know she probably felt when her dad died, she hadn't spent the time with him that she should have and she didn't want that to happen with the rest of the family, but find a happy medium.

Well, she has that place in London still, I imagine. Maybe when she goes there she can reconnect with people. But yes, after 2 years, if I found myself feeling lonely, I definitely would have changed up how much time I spent there. Go there when you want to unplug, but don't live there full time.

Michele

If you're lonely... write some music!!

[secret love]

Excellent article. I'm guessing the falling out between Lindsey and Stevie in 2003 was the result of Stevie not being happy with Lindsey's productions of her SYW songs.

Obviously I support this view too. That is all on the public record in Destiny Rules doco. And just ...Stevie's body language in interviews of the Say You Will era, some of the things she said. When Stevie Nicks says something that she does not believe to be true, when she tells a lie - it is just obvious. She wears her heart on her sleeve so you can tell when she says "It's heavy, isn't it?" bout SYW album, yes it is heavy. But you know she choose Illume as her favourite song from the album in some interview (or possibly that was Mick's favourite song).

The problem is we can't know the full story because Stevie doesn't want to dwell on it - SYW - nor does Lindsey. He thinks it turned out great, because his GOS1 songs were awesome I must admit (though some of the lyrics are cliched, I just cannot give his music playing/guitars poor critique) - and 7 of the 16 or so songs intended for GOS1 ended up being released, owned by and sold under the guise of "Fleetwood Mac".

I think Lindsey ...this is only my hunch...he probably doesn't care how his music is released provided his creative vision is fulfilled. He may have had his most successful solo album ever with GOS1 but instead he got to help Fleetwood Mac achieve ~800000 sales (0.8 million) with Say You Will. I'd say it's possibly more than that. It achieved Gold status but the sales figures have not been recorded/reported for a long time now, so it could actually have achieved platinum sales over the last ten years.

And it is probably difficult for Lindsey to let go of some anger that the best music he has ever produced was not compiled into one "artpiece" or "artwork" or whatever. But here's the reality kids: I can make the intended playlist of GOS1 using SYW songs and GOS2 and I get not the same thing, but music with a gorgeous soothing contralto female voice on the recording too. Plus Mick. Plus John laying down the bass lines, and black keys might I add on Syw.

Anyways...why write all this? Lindsey is big enough and ugly enough to accept now all that his job entails! He does not care any more about how he got ripped off in SYW by losing his rights to make GOS1 and be a really successful solo artist for the first time ever (meaning: similar to Stevie's star power/solo work income). And Stevie does not resent Lindsey for having smaller, more intimate solo work experiences. She got that with Dave Stewart and In Your Dreams, she worked first with Dave and her bandmates Waddy, the girls Lori and the other girl. Some other people too of course. In 2010. Then she released her record and she "personally sold" it to 300000 people.

And she was NOT dissatisfied with the album sales of IYD. The journalist who said she was needs to watch the interview she said this in, in context. It's like 15 min and he used a 15 second soundbite to write that Nicks was unhappy with her album sales. Not true. She does not care. Why would she? She's rich. She doesn't have to make money any more. She has investments and financially trained people to help her maintain those investments to secure her income. She wanted to make a record she liked, on her own terms, with Dave. And she did.

It's just four adults doing a job together these days I'd say. Four adults who all adore each other. ;)

[Ulpian]

Yes, you're right.



I thought she was surrounded by not only her brother, but nieces and nephews and their offspring visiting all the time. I know she probably felt when her dad died, she hadn't spent the time with him that she should have and she didn't want that to happen with the rest of the family, but find a happy medium.

Well, she has that place in London still, I imagine. Maybe when she goes there she can reconnect with people. But yes, after 2 years, if I found myself feeling lonely, I definitely would have changed up how much time I spent there. Go there when you want to unplug, but don't live there full time.

Michele

Agreed. I'd be in that London apartment during the weekend and maybe out in the countryside a few weekdays to recharge.

[michelej1]

If you're lonely... write some music!!

Mick said she was, after Hawaii. We just have to find something for her to do with it!

Michele

[aleuzzi]

If you're lonely... write some music!!

Yesssssssssss! And record it.

[louielouie2000]

I'm not sure I would say dawdled. She was genuinely busy releasing, promoting, and touring behind TISL. Beginning with Mirage, the band has always taken advantage of the fact that they can get some of the work done without Stevie, and then incorporate her stuff when time allows. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it wouldn't be beneficial to have her there for all the sessions (Tango would have been better), but it seems as much a band decision as it does hers.

No doubt, she was busy for most of the second half of 2001 touring to support TISL. But surely she could have popped in several times to check on SYW's recording during 2001. She also had most of December of 2001 off, but didn't begin her involvement in SYW until early 2002. And it was clear in the Destiny Rules documentary that her first day with the band in 2002 was just that. She had NO idea what they'd been up to, what direction the recording was going in, the vision of a double album, none of it. Yes, the band could have waited for her... but she could have found some time in 2001 just to check on things, too.

I think Stevie was used to Christine being in the band as a more pop-friendly and very formidable/respected musical force. I have a distinct feeling that post Tusk, Christine had a way of reigning in Lindsey when he went too far out into left field. In turn, Christine probably got Stevie to meet Lindsey in the middle when it came to her own songs. I just think Stevie was shocked by the all male dynamic, and what it really meant in regards to the way it changed the band's sound AND power structure. SYW must have been tough for Stevie because she lost an ally with Christine; and someone who really helped bridge the chasm between herself & Lindsey musically. That's probably exactly why more than a decade has passed since the last Fleetwood Mac album.

[secret love]

No doubt, she was busy for most of the second half of 2001 touring to support TISL. But surely she could have popped in several times to check on SYW's recording during 2001. She also had most of December of 2001 off, but didn't begin her involvement in SYW until early 2002. And it was clear in the Destiny Rules documentary that her first day with the band in 2002 was just that. She had NO idea what they'd been up to, what direction the recording was going in, the vision of a double album, none of it. Yes, the band could have waited for her... but she could have found some time in 2001 just to check on things, too.

I think Stevie was used to Christine being in the band as a more pop-friendly and very formidable/respected musical force. I have a distinct feeling that post Tusk, Christine had a way of reigning in Lindsey when he went too far out into left field. In turn, Christine probably got Stevie to meet Lindsey in the middle when it came to her own songs. I just think Stevie was shocked by the all male dynamic, and what it really meant in regards to the way it changed the band's sound AND power structure. SYW must have been tough for Stevie because she lost an ally with Christine; and someone who really helped bridge the chasm between herself & Lindsey musically. That's probably exactly why more than a decade has passed since the last Fleetwood Mac album.

Absolutely. Could not have said it better myself. My heart just broke when I say Stevie bring in the beautiful dream catcher on her first day in 2002 in the recording studio for Say You Will - because all the blokes were rolling their eyes at her and they did take the piss out of her a little bit. "Stevie we've been her the past 6 months trying to..." I don't want to misquote Mick but he said they had been there so long trying to pretend she was there - make the songs in her key I guess which I think is D major. Well Rhiannon was originally in D major if my memory serves me correctly. Anyone: what key are majority of Stevie's songs in?

And then Stevie said "good news is I wrote four songs. And I tried to write them as though you guys were there. You weren't there but it was like you were, ya know?" So the whole band obviously tries to do things apart and then get together and nail it down as quick as they feel is practical to avoid the squabbles.

Also it is somewhat of a Lindsey Buckingham signature thing that in his production of songs....well not just Lindsey but the band....they layer their vocals like you say and almost always have done (for the last 30 years at least). :nod:

Yes, it is true Stevie lost an ally in Christine. Supposedly the whole song Say You Will was written for Christine's benefit .....but I don't know if that's just a Rumour pun intended or an acutal fact from Stevie's mouth.

I do not know why it took Fleetwood Mac 36 years to finally get along and I sincerely wish for all my family and friends that our working lives will be much more pleasant than that. Yes they always loved each other and yes they "pushed the wrong buttons" (Mick) but there is no excuse for 36 years of that. It is bitter, angry, self-indulgent and excessive, poisonous for all people involved.

I'm just happy that the four of them are getting along now so finally....Christine feels ok to pop up on stage....also her life is her's now. I don't think the same can be said for Stevie and am willing to bet Nicks has a lot more "people"/minders than C. McVie...! And that's sad, because Stevie always wanted to look after people and have a family and be a mother, have a long term relationship but it never worked out for her. It worked for Chris twice, but failed eventually with John and Eddy. And Chris clearly did not want children. I have a distinct feeling that Stevie did, but it was not possible, and by the way I'm a nursing student: most sexually active women will have at least one miscarriage in their life that they don't even notice (ever been a week late? or two? and then you were fine?). That's because the pregnancy is not viable so the body spontaneously aborts it before the foetus develops.

I know people find it taboo, but just simply, I think Stevie may have wanted children and that many opportunities came up but her health was so poor (e.g. Klonopin and cocaine) that a pregnancy probably would have ended because of her poor health and substance misuse if she ever was pregnant. And I think she absolutely believe this "Destiny Rules" thing. It's not about "spirits are ruthless" - it is about how destiny/fate gets in the way and if she had not joined Fleetwood Mac she probably would have stayed together with Lindsey, had a family and still worked as a musician. But I don't want to get into too much conjecture.....

[CADreaming]

No doubt, she was busy for most of the second half of 2001 touring to support TISL. But surely she could have popped in several times to check on SYW's recording during 2001. She also had most of December of 2001 off, but didn't begin her involvement in SYW until early 2002. And it was clear in the Destiny Rules documentary that her first day with the band in 2002 was just that. She had NO idea what they'd been up to, what direction the recording was going in, the vision of a double album, none of it. Yes, the band could have waited for her... but she could have found some time in 2001 just to check on things, too.

I think Stevie was used to Christine being in the band as a more pop-friendly and very formidable/respected musical force. I have a distinct feeling that post Tusk, Christine had a way of reigning in Lindsey when he went too far out into left field. In turn, Christine probably got Stevie to meet Lindsey in the middle when it came to her own songs. I just think Stevie was shocked by the all male dynamic, and what it really meant in regards to the way it changed the band's sound AND power structure. SYW must have been tough for Stevie because she lost an ally with Christine; and someone who really helped bridge the chasm between herself & Lindsey musically. That's probably exactly why more than a decade has passed since the last Fleetwood Mac album.

But Stevie brought Sheryl Crow in and she was on more than one song. Maybe that was where Stevie started to dislike the project more - when her hopes of Sheryl replacing Christine didn't quite pan out as she hoped.

[Desiree]

For me it's a timing thing. Lindsey put up with all the craziness during the making of Tango. When he quit the band, just before they were ready to head out on tour, Stevie was in pretty good shape. I guess she was already on Klonopin, but at that point it was probably a reasonable dose. She looks and sounds great in all of the Tango promotion, videos, interviews, etc. I would think any fear he may have had would have subsided by that time.

Stevie was in pretty bad shape, really, until 1994 and then some. You don't leave rehab 'fixed', the REAL work begins after you leave. At the end of Tango and as Lindsey was leaving the band, Stevie had just gotten out of rehab for a long term cocaine, etc., etc. addiction and had gone straight onto Klonopin when she left (that's how they did it back then) so...she probably had very little truly clear time in between the coke and Klonopin. Plus, she was dealing with all of the fall out that comes with a completely wrecked life, a life that her family and friends, millions of fans, promoters, colleagues etc. have watched go to the very pinnacle and then fall to the very depths of hell, at her own hands, none the less! I'd say Stevie was probably extremely vulnerable and zoned out even as she came out of rehab and would only get worse for what would end up to be a very long time... I've always thought it was exactly as Lindsey said from the git go, a survival move, his leaving.

[SteveMacD]

I don't know if I agree that Lindsey feared for his personal safety. I don't think he really wanted to be in any band, but especially not one with two strung out drama queens and a recovering addict who's sobriety he doubted would last the tour (and I don't think it did).

[CADreaming]

I've always thought there was something else that broke the camels back. I'm sure his reason is true. But it seems like there's another part that we will probably never know. It doesn't add up to me that he suddenly had this epiphany of how crazy a tour would get. I mean, maybe he witnessed a break in the sobriety at rehearsal or a video shoot or maybe he even partook and then realized how hard it was going to be.

[SteveMacD]

It doesn't add up to me that he suddenly had this epiphany of how crazy a tour would get. I mean, maybe he witnessed a break in the sobriety at rehearsal or a video shoot or maybe he even partook and then realized how hard it was going to be.
My theory is that he just didn't want to be in any band anymore. What was different this time?

Well, per Mick and Billy, Billy was going to be on the Tango tour regardless because Lindsey wanted a second guitarist, and Billy was the obvious choice, considering his work with Mick, Christine, Stevie, and even Lindsey. Maybe Lindsey even figured that Billy could just take over altogether, which would free him up from being in the band.

[CADreaming]

Interesting. I wondered if he had any input in his replacement(s).

But, why didn't he consider not getting so involved in the band before he produced a new album, made videos, did press, and booked a tour?

[SteveMacD]

Interesting. I wondered if he had any input in his replacement(s).
I doubt he had any input, but I'm sure he assumed Billy was their guy. I doubt he'd even heard of Rick Vito, who Mick had met and started to work with on a Rick Vito solo project through Billy.

But, why didn't he consider not getting so involved in the band before he produced a new album, made videos, did press, and booked a tour?
Per an interview I've heard from 1990, Mick got a lawyer to draft some document, and the band started working with a different producer, all of which Lindsey felt was unacceptable. IMO, they should've parted ways with Stevie and Lindsey after the "Tusk" tour, or even the "Mirage" tour and found another guitarist/vocalist (I'm thinking Richard Thompson) and forged forward. No offense to Stevie, but she she was dead weight from 1986 to 1997, and she's all but admitted that.

[bombaysaffires]

I doubt he had any input, but I'm sure he assumed Billy was their guy. I doubt he'd even heard of Rick Vito, who Mick had met and started to work with on a Rick Vito solo project through Billy.


Per an interview I've heard from 1990, Mick got a lawyer to draft some document, and the band started working with a different producer, all of which Lindsey felt was unacceptable. IMO, they should've parted ways with Stevie and Lindsey after the "Tusk" tour, or even the "Mirage" tour and found another guitarist/vocalist (I'm thinking Richard Thompson) and forged forward. No offense to Stevie, but she she was dead weight from 1986 to 1997, and she's all but admitted that.

perhaps, but the fact remains she was the biggest name in the band and they drew a lot of fans to concerts etc based on her name, so ditching her would have seriously reduced their ticket sales and their PR. In many ways Stevie should have left the band for her *own* sake -- a large part of her drug use came out of the grind of running two careers and being exhausted and using coke to keep going.

[vivfox]

Well, per Mick and Billy, Billy was going to be on the Tango tour regardless because Lindsey wanted a second guitarist, and Billy was the obvious choice, considering his work with Mick, Christine, Stevie, and even Lindsey. Maybe Lindsey even figured that Billy could just take over altogether, which would free him up from being in the band.


No where have I ever read where Lindsey said he wanted a second guitarist. He always had Ray Lindsey playing for him right behind a big amp when he needed assistance.

[secret love]

But Stevie brought Sheryl Crow in and she was on more than one song. Maybe that was where Stevie started to dislike the project more - when her hopes of Sheryl replacing Christine didn't quite pan out as she hoped.

See I'm a bit controversial here. Unlike other Mac fans I think it is possible to have a record which is "Fleetwood Mac feat. Sheryl Crow" rather than Sheryl being an actual replacement for Christine. She does not have to join the band to contribute to their music, yes she played vibraphone or some keyboard instrument on Say You Will, backing vocals on Silver Girl and keyboards again on that song too.

If Lindsey was not so proud Sheryl Crow may very well have felt comfortable to contribute to the record more. She was brought in by Stevie as one of Stevie's friends and professional associate. All Mumma Nicks wanted clearly was to have a gal pal in the band to support her and make the whole process a little more relaxed and enjoyable while recording for Say You Will (2003).

She did not achieve this, and not because Crow was unwilling to contribute more to the record, but because there was ... it would seem...resistance from the Buckingham. Mick in some comments about Crow said "it would have been interesting". Lindsey said "What's she going to be doing? She's not going to be singing Christine songs. She's certainly not going to be singing Sheryl Crow songs"

But if Sheryl Crow wants to co-write with Stevie, or even just write a song on her own to perform with Stevie I wish they would just do it. Even if it does not come with the Fleetwood Mac tagline - these two are gorgeous and just amazing artists.

Anxiously anticipating Feels Like Home by Sheryl Crow to be released in just under a month's time, I am!

[michelej1]

No where have I ever read where Lindsey said he wanted a second guitarist. He always had Ray Lindsey playing for him right behind a big amp when he needed assistance.

I know Christine said Lindsey wanted more guitar for a fuller sound too. I never heard Lindsey say he did, although you see the guitar army he had for OOTC, so he might have wanted it for that FM tour. I don't know. Of course, Lindsey made fun of them for having two guitarists to replace him, so who knows. But Christine said that had been his plan.

Michele

[CADreaming]

I know Christine said Lindsey wanted more guitar for a fuller sound too. I never heard Lindsey say he did, although you see the guitar army he had for OOTC, so he might have wanted it for that FM tour. I don't know. Of course, Lindsey made fun of them for having two guitarists to replace him, so who knows. But Christine said that had been his plan.

Michele

That sort of sounds like it wasn't really a surprise then. Is it possible he had told them all along he wasn't doing the tour and maybe they thought they could twist his arm?

[wheart]

No doubt, she was busy for most of the second half of 2001 touring to support TISL. But surely she could have popped in several times to check on SYW's recording during 2001. She also had most of December of 2001 off, but didn't begin her involvement in SYW until early 2002. And it was clear in the Destiny Rules documentary that her first day with the band in 2002 was just that. She had NO idea what they'd been up to, what direction the recording was going in, the vision of a double album, none of it. Yes, the band could have waited for her... but she could have found some time in 2001 just to check on things, too.

I think Stevie was used to Christine being in the band as a more pop-friendly and very formidable/respected musical force. I have a distinct feeling that post Tusk, Christine had a way of reigning in Lindsey when he went too far out into left field. In turn, Christine probably got Stevie to meet Lindsey in the middle when it came to her own songs. I just think Stevie was shocked by the all male dynamic, and what it really meant in regards to the way it changed the band's sound AND power structure. SYW must have been tough for Stevie because she lost an ally with Christine; and someone who really helped bridge the chasm between herself & Lindsey musically. That's probably exactly why more than a decade has passed since the last Fleetwood Mac album.

I really agree with this and never gave the Steve/Christine dynamic in the studio a second thought. I've always known Stevie misses her "big sister" on stage but the studio thing is something entirely different. And yes, I completely agree that it's a big part of the reason there hasn't been a Fleetwood Mac in more than a decade. I think the recording of SYW and subsequent tour left a lasting impression on Stevie.

It also makes me think about her recent comments about telling Lindsey she was sorry and how she felt about things, in the recent Aussie interview. I always assume she's talking about things that happened over 30 years ago when they broke up. But now I thinking that maybe a lot of the issues that S&L are coming to terms with are more recent, say in the past 15 or so years.

So this is a great thread! Thanks for everyone's opinions, insights and speculations.

[michelej1]

That sort of sounds like it wasn't really a surprise then. Is it possible he had told them all along he wasn't doing the tour and maybe they thought they could twist his arm?

I think it's more of a thing where you work up your courage to do something and you just don't. You kind of cop out. I think Lindsey dragged his feet and they all knew he was reluctant and he tried to tell them indirectly, but didn't say the words to them. The farther he let it go, the harder it was. It's like waiting until the wedding day to back out of marriage, even though you knew you weren't really into it 3 months ago. :laugh: Michele

[SteveMacD]

No where have I ever read where Lindsey said he wanted a second guitarist. He always had Ray Lindsey playing for him right behind a big amp when he needed assistance.
Mick and Christine did an interview that came out around Christmas, 1987 for a magazine. I don't remember what it was called (although, I do remember something about Christine having a bumper sticker that said "I Break for Penguins"), and a color copy of this picture was on the cover.
http://www.fleetwoodmacforsale.com/fm111.jpg


In the interview, they said that Lindsey said that he wanted a second full-time guitarist. I think this is the interview where Mick hinted that it probably would have been Billy Burnette. I even asked Billy about that on his Q&A on here, and he confirmed that Mick had said that at one point.

[michelej1]

This is what Christine said:

http://bla.fleetwoodmac.net/index.php?page=index_v2&id=859&c=18

With Buckingham gone, two guitarists--Rick Vito and Billy Burnette--have been added to the touring lineup. Both players have known the other Mac members for years, and, according to McVie, “They fit in perfectly. Billy’s mainly playing rhythm, which is refreshing and really fills out the sound. When we talked with Lindsey about touring and augmenting the band, he was planning on having more people--maybe four guitarists and six percussionists.”

Four guitarists? Maybe Lindsey left because he was ashamed. Maybe he said to himself, "My guitar playing just sucks. I better hire as many more guitarists as possible, because I am really bringing this band down."

Michele

[Deeshere]

This is what Christine said:

http://bla.fleetwoodmac.net/index.php?page=index_v2&id=859&c=18



Four guitarists? Maybe Lindsey left because he was ashamed. Maybe he said to himself, "My guitar playing just sucks. I better hire as many more guitarists as possible, because I am really bringing this band down."

Michele

In several interviews Mick said Lindsey was making all sorts of demands about wanting more guitarists and adding percussionists to the TITN tour. All of which the band agreed to.

I think Lindsey was making large demands from the band hoping the band would say no to them which would give him an excuse he could use to explain why he would not tour with them. No way do I think Lindsey ever thought his guitar playing sucked. (if you don't like it, you just don't have the ears for it ;))

The problem was the band gave into all his demands trying to get him to go on tour, so he was eventually cornered and had to just come out and tell them he was leaving the band which lead to the huge 1987 blow up.

I also wonder how Lindsey would feel if Chris did decide to rejoin the band. I am sure they would all let her, but I get the feeling that Lindsey would not be too happy about it. He's made a point over the years of talking about how much happier he is with the sound of their music and how it sounds more edgy without Chris's piano playing.

Plus I was surprised that in interviews over the years he's mentioned how he felt that Chris and Stevie pushed each other to leave their respective partners, and that he felt that if Stevie did not have Chris there to commiserate with, he and Stevie might have worked things out. It seemed to me that he had a touch of bitterness about it (maybe towards Chris? I don't know) other wise why even bring the subject up.

[michelej1]

Plus I was surprised that in interviews over the years he's mentioned how he felt that Chris and Stevie pushed each other to leave their respective partners, and that he felt that if Stevie did not have Chris there to commiserate with, he and Stevie might have worked things out. It seemed to me that he had a touch of bitterness about it (maybe towards Chris? I don't know) other wise why even bring the subject up.

I think he was upset that Chris did not join them for SYW. If she wanted to come back, not for this tour, but for the next one, I think he would be excited. He might have fewer songs on stage, but she wouldn't press him to cut ISA or anything like that. Plus, she's been writing songs and so has she and she would make it possible for him to have the new album that Stevie has been resisting. She would help him to get around Stevie and the band could promote the whole thing as her last tour with the band and make more money.

As for Lindsey in 1987, I don't think he was making unreasonable demands for the Tango tour. I think he was going for the layered sound that he wanted for his own OOTC tour later. I think he was trying to envision something similar to that for FM's tour and that he still kept that goal in mind when he planned his OOTC tour, although he didn't have FM's budget.

Michele

[SteveMacD]

As for Lindsey in 1987, I don't think he was making unreasonable demands for the Tango tour. I think he was going for the layered sound that he wanted for his own OOTC tour later.
I don't, either, and the band pretty much met all of those demands even without him touring. They had the percussionist, the background singers, two full-time guitarists, and even Ray Lindsey chiming in on "Go Your Own Way."

What has always bothered me is how he said things like "I think it's funny that they had to get two guitarists to replace me."

[Deeshere]

Yeah, I really get all that. I still think its absurd to think its absurd of Lindsey to have that emotion. One day when my addict brother dies, I'm sure my anger at him and his addiction will lessen, but as angry as I am now and as hard as I have to be in order not to play enabler, I'm still - everyday- frightened he might die. Or maybe more frightened that that day will be today.

So, I don't care what year it was or what day even it was or even if he doesn't want to admit it 25 years later in an interview. Lindsey was certainly afraid/frightened about Stevie dying. And, a lot of other people were too.


First of all Dee I want to say I am sorry about the problems you are having with your brother. I hope things get better for both of you soon.

Secondly, why don't we let Lindsey and Stevie explain why Lindsey left the band back in 1987. Here are the direct quotes from the January 2013 Rolling Stone Interview.

Buckingham: I took off in '87 because –

Nicks: You quit.

Buckingham: [Nods] I quit because things were getting a little too crazy, and I wanted to try to get my feet back on the ground. We did Clinton's inauguration in '93, and that was sort of the catalyst and had a delayed reaction. I think by the time you cut to '96, when we contemplated doing The Dance, there had been enough time where we all settled down as people. The craziness that existed in '87 and '88 was gone. We were – for all intents and purposes – adults. I think the time apart helped us appreciate each other. The group has always been a group of people you can say maybe didn't belong in the same band together, but it's the synergy that makes it so magical. We were able to see that more clearly.

Lindsey had hesitated in the past to come back, so did something get resolved?
Buckingham: There were a number of false starts where I was trying to make solo albums. They would get constantly folded into group efforts. In retrospect I can say fair enough that you call yourself a band member and you've got to step up to the plate when the need arises. So that was an issue I had for a number of years that has come and gone. I am more appreciative of the fact that we know each other, we've been through so much together and we are really family.

Nicks: What else happened is I went into rehab on December 12th, 1993 and came out on the 27th of January – 47 days to come off of Klonopin. I nearly died. And I think one of the reasons that Lindsey left is because I was very, very high on this horrific tranquilizer. I didn't even make it to most of the recording sessions for [1987's] Tango in the Night. I was sick. And I think he was horribly worried that I was going to die. That's one of the reasons you [turns to Buckingham] wanted to quit. We had this huge tour and it was booked. We were at Chris' house and [Lindsey] stood up and said "I quit," and I – being so high and so messed up – just raged across the room and I wanted to kill him.

When I came out of rehab, I did a small three-month tour, and I got through it. I was going to be OK, and everyone knew I was going to be OK. And I think that's when Lindsey thought Fleetwood Mac could go on, because his beloved ex-girlfriend was not going to die. She was going to make it.

So everything since then has been different from what it was before?
Buckingham: It's still evolving, and that's the beauty of it too. I've known Stevie since high school. We were a couple for many, many years, and we've been a musical couple forever. After all this time you would think there was nothing left to discover, nothing left to work out, no new chapters to be written. But that is not the case – there are new chapters to be written. It's quite extraordinary.



Lindsey says there were several reasons that he quit the band (that's obviously true) and I know Stevie over dramatizes things a lot, BUT Stevie point blank called him out in front of the interviewer and said that he told her that one of the reasons he quit the band was because he was "horribly worried" she was going to die. Lindsey DID NOT correct her and say she was wrong or was overstating what he said to her (and you know if Lindsey thought she was wrong he would have corrected her) so that leads me to believe that Stevie is telling the truth about what he said to her.

Plus Lindsey said in later (I think 1992) interviews that he was so upset about what was going on in the band during TITN and trying to decide if he should leave the band or not that he started to talk to other people (to get some prospective on what was going on) and even went to see a psychologist to talk about what was going on in the band. To me he must have had some pretty serious issues about what was going on and it would seem that those issues would be much bigger than him not liking the musical direction of the band or the fact that his solo works kept getting folded up into Fleetwood Mac albums.

I attribute a large part of his problem (though I am sure not all of it) to being the fact that he did think Stevie was going to die. He has said that in his past experience that when the band get's out on the road, the drug use is 10 times worse than in the studio, so if Stevie was already so messed up she could hardly function in the studio. I'm sure he believed she would die if they went out and toured. I think him leaving was maybe a way that he could either try and stop the tour or at the very least not have to be a part of (or) have to watch someone he loves die.

In the Sunday times interview I think Lindsey ego is the reason he down played what was said and also Stevie was not there to call him out on anything said and I'm sure she would have.

[louielouie2000]

In several interviews Mick said Lindsey was making all sorts of demands about wanting more guitarists and adding percussionists to the TITN tour. All of which the band agreed to.

I think Lindsey was making large demands from the band hoping the band would say no to them which would give him an excuse he could use to explain why he would not tour with them. No way do I think Lindsey ever thought his guitar playing sucked. (if you don't like it, you just don't have the ears for it ;))

The problem was the band gave into all his demands trying to get him to go on tour, so he was eventually cornered and had to just come out and tell them he was leaving the band which lead to the huge 1987 blow up.

I also wonder how Lindsey would feel if Chris did decide to rejoin the band. I am sure they would all let her, but I get the feeling that Lindsey would not be too happy about it. He's made a point over the years of talking about how much happier he is with the sound of their music and how it sounds more edgy without Chris's piano playing.

Plus I was surprised that in interviews over the years he's mentioned how he felt that Chris and Stevie pushed each other to leave their respective partners, and that he felt that if Stevie did not have Chris there to commiserate with, he and Stevie might have worked things out. It seemed to me that he had a touch of bitterness about it (maybe towards Chris? I don't know) other wise why even bring the subject up.

While I do think Lindsey was dreaming of escaping the band after recording Tango, I don't think he was trying to get fired/make unreasonable demands as a scapegoat. My guess is he was simply trying to relieve some stress by having people help him out onstage. Plus, that person(s) could help insulate him from the band members which he wasn't getting along with at that point (ie: all of them). There are a lot of things you can say about Lindsey (in the past), but I don't think you can say he's ever cared for anything more than the quality/style of the music he's putting out. Be that music recorded, or live. He's very much a purist when it comes to his craft. He may play good cop/bad cop to get his way, but generally speaking, I think (in his mind at least), it's always for the betterment of the songs.

[Deeshere]

he didn't have FM's budget

Michele

That's very true :laugh:. He said he had to pay for all those extra guitarist out of his own pocket and that his accountants wouldn't let him do that again.

[Deeshere]

While I do think Lindsey was dreaming of escaping the band after recording Tango, I don't think he was trying to get fired/make unreasonable demands as a scapegoat. My guess is he was simply trying to relieve some stress by having people help him out onstage. Plus, that person(s) could help insulate him from the band members which he wasn't getting along with at that point (ie: all of them). There are a lot of things you can say about Lindsey (in the past), but I don't think you can say he's ever cared for anything more than the quality/style of the music he's putting out. Be that music recorded, or live. He's very much a purist when it comes to his craft. He may play good cop/bad cop to get his way, but generally speaking, I think (in his mind at least), it's always for the betterment of the songs.


I agree that lindsey is a purist and is always striving for the betterment of the songs, and like Michele said he was headed in the direction of layered sound, but speaking from a strictly monetarily point of view, at the time of TITN, Fleetwood Mac already had pretty large back up band and adding more musicians to the tour would only cut into the bands profits even more.

I know Lindsey is willing to sacrifice money to the good of the music, but he's well aware that the band is not. So it stands to reason that asking for more guitarist more percussionist most likely would not be well revived by the rest of the band and I think he was hoping they would say no to his demands which would give him an excuse to leave or maybe fire him (though I can't see that would ever have happened), but they didn't do it. They agreed because they knew he close to leaving the band, so he had to quit.

If all he wanted was more musicians, so he could create his layered sound or make the sound bigger, or better, he got it. The band agreed to ALL his demands and he STILL would not tour with them.

Obviously, the music was not his main concern or he would have done the TITN tour. That is why I said him making a lot of demands for the TITN tour was one of the ways he was trying to get out.

[jbrownsjr]

I saw the OTTC tour and it was fantastic. I have to say however: I disagree with Lindsey wanting all those extra musicians for Fleetwood Mac shows. I love the rawness of the previous tours, the harmonies, keying in on who is playing what. What has made them such a great band is that each of the instrumentalists are odd players and singers. They strangely gelled together so well. It's what made them so fresh and unique. Even the Bob Welch days worked because each of them had weird playing styles and vocals.

As for LB being afraid for Stevie's health... I totally buy that's a major part of it. And he is totally justified in wanting to get away from that behavior. Especially when he is doing a huge amount of the work.

As for LB and Christine. I simply think he took it hard and was not happy about her leaving. 1. He didn't understand it. 2. He'd just come back and gotten used to FM again.

But the guy that he is, he had to make it work without Christine, and musically he looked at the positives and opportunities. But as we've seen, Christine's absence has been a huge hole for them. SYW is lacking, and that famous blend of magic is a bit less without the 5 of them. And while I love them to death, their voices have aged to the point of making them very less exciting.

In 1987 they did continue without him and I thought Christine was the one that shined live on the Shacking and BTM tours. But when you add session musicians to the weirdness of those guys it becomes a tad boring and almost forced to my ears.

Christine you're lonely, Lindsey you want another album, Stevie, you want another woman...

...Fine Go back to The Chateau in France where Mirage was recorded and spend a month or two together for the last album. Do like Pink Floyd and do NY, Chicago, Toronto, Los Angeles, and add Honolulu. Another FM album with the FAB FIVE will sell if promoted properly. Problem solved.

[secret love]

I saw the OTTC tour and it was fantastic. I have to say however: I disagree with Lindsey wanting all those extra musicians for Fleetwood Mac shows. I love the rawness of the previous tours, the harmonies, keying in on who is playing what. What has made them such a great band is that each of the instrumentalists are odd players and singers. They strangely gelled together so well. It's what made them so fresh and unique. Even the Bob Welch days worked because each of them had weird playing styles and vocals.

As for LB being afraid for Stevie's health... I totally buy that's a major part of it. And he is totally justified in wanting to get away from that behavior. Especially when he is doing a huge amount of the work.

As for LB and Christine. I simply think he took it hard and was not happy about her leaving. 1. He didn't understand it. 2. He'd just come back and gotten used to FM again.

But the guy that he is, he had to make it work without Christine, and musically he looked at the positives and opportunities. But as we've seen, Christine's absence has been a huge hole for them. SYW is lacking, and that famous blend of magic is a bit less without the 5 of them. And while I love them to death, their voices have aged to the point of making them very less exciting.

In 1987 they did continue without him and I thought Christine was the one that shined live on the Shacking and BTM tours. But when you add session musicians to the weirdness of those guys it becomes a tad boring and almost forced to my ears.

Christine you're lonely, Lindsey you want another album, Stevie, you want another woman...

...Fine Go back to The Chateau in France where Mirage was recorded and spend a month or two together for the last album. Do like Pink Floyd and do NY, Chicago, Toronto, Los Angeles, and add Honolulu. Another FM album with the FAB FIVE will sell if promoted properly. Problem solved.

I absolutely agree with the premise of your argument and its conclusion. I would like to add:

As a fan, I do not have any "must dos" or "songs that if we don't play, we'd be taken out the back and shot"...I simply don't care. If Fleetwood Mac wants to do a tour where they just sing what they want to, even if it includes covers, that is fine with me. My preference is for band originals but I believe this is also the preference of all the writers. Furthermore, I believe Mick and John are the only ones who would like to play the blues (and maybe Christine a little too).

I think it is reasonable and achievable provided all of the band members maintain their current states of good health (I'm not referring to drug use: I'm actually referring to conditions of old age! :nod:)

If all of the "FAB FIVE" are alive there is no reason why they can't do just as you've suggested, JBrownsjr. The only thing stopping them all is pride. :(

If we have a new Fleetwood Mac album like this:

3 Stevie songs
3 Christine songs
8 Lindsey Buckingham songs

I honestly don't care. It is better than nothing. My ideal would be

5 Stevie songs
4 Christine songs
8 Lindsey Buckingham songs

but that is just my opinion. I believe the first option I listed is more likely to happen, if at all. If we get a new studio album: I will be thankful and appreciate simply for the pure effort and dedication and hard work of the band at this point.

[SteveMacD]

I attribute a large part of his problem (though I am sure not all of it) to being the fact that he did think Stevie was going to die. He has said that in his past experience that when the band get's out on the road, the drug use is 10 times worse than in the studio, so if Stevie was already so messed up she could hardly function in the studio. I'm sure he believed she would die if they went out and toured. I think him leaving was maybe a way that he could either try and stop the tour or at the very least not have to be a part of (or) have to watch someone he loves die.
The thing that bothers me about all of this is that it JUST focuses on Stevie and her issues. Let's not forget that John McVie just got out of rehab and Mick Fleetwood was still pretty messed up on cocaine in 1987. Would McVie relapse and have a seizure? Would Stevie and/or Mick OD? Could somebody die? Touring under those circumstances would be intimidating for anybody, let alone somebody who wasn't especially fond of touring to begin with.

[jbrownsjr]

I absolutely agree with the premise of your argument and its conclusion. I would like to add:

As a fan, I do not have any "must dos" or "songs that if we don't play, we'd be taken out the back and shot"...I simply don't care. If Fleetwood Mac wants to do a tour where they just sing what they want to, even if it includes covers, that is fine with me. My preference is for band originals but I believe this is also the preference of all the writers. Furthermore, I believe Mick and John are the only ones who would like to play the blues (and maybe Christine a little too).

I think it is reasonable and achievable provided all of the band members maintain their current states of good health (I'm not referring to drug use: I'm actually referring to conditions of old age! :nod:)

If all of the "FAB FIVE" are alive there is no reason why they can't do just as you've suggested, JBrownsjr. The only thing stopping them all is pride. :(

If we have a new Fleetwood Mac album like this:

3 Stevie songs
3 Christine songs
8 Lindsey Buckingham songs

I honestly don't care. It is better than nothing. My ideal would be

5 Stevie songs
4 Christine songs
8 Lindsey Buckingham songs

but that is just my opinion. I believe the first option I listed is more likely to happen, if at all. If we get a new studio album: I will be thankful and appreciate simply for the pure effort and dedication and hard work of the band at this point.

I don't mind this as long as they all record it together. Would rather see LB 4, CM 4, SN 4 LB/CM 1 SN/CM 1

[MikeInNV]

The thing that bothers me about all of this is that it JUST focuses on Stevie and her issues. Let's not forget that John McVie just got out of rehab and Mick Fleetwood was still pretty messed up on cocaine in 1987. Would McVie relapse and have a seizure? Would Stevie and/or Mick OD? Could somebody die? Touring under those circumstances would be intimidating for anybody, let alone somebody who wasn't especially fond of touring to begin with.

Stevie was fine on the Tango tour. By the time that tour started, she had been out of Betty Ford and off coke for nearly a year. All the promo and videos for Tango were great. Yes, she had started Klonopin (although does anyone really know exactly when that started? Sometime after Betty Ford she saw a psychiatrist who prescribed it.) But I don't think we were seeing Klonopin effects in 1987.

[Deeshere]

The thing that bothers me about all of this is that it JUST focuses on Stevie and her issues. Let's not forget that John McVie just got out of rehab and Mick Fleetwood was still pretty messed up on cocaine in 1987. Would McVie relapse and have a seizure? Would Stevie and/or Mick OD? Could somebody die? Touring under those circumstances would be intimidating for anybody, let alone somebody who wasn't especially fond of touring to begin with.


I agree with all your valid points. The reason I pointed more to Stevie than the other's is that at the time TITN was being recorded Lindsey did not have the same kind of friendship/love he has with John and Mick today.

That's not to say he was not worried about them, did not care about them or that he was not afraid that either of them could (or) would die on the road as well. However, the bond/love we see between Lindsey, Mick and John now seems to have happened around 95-96 when he brought them in to back up his solo album, and solidified even more during 2001-2002 when they were making SYW. Everyone was in a much better place physically and emotionally. Mick said he and Lindsey has long lunches and talked through a lot of old issues and came to understand each other in a way they never had before and developed a deep friendship that would last no matter what. However, all that happen after Lindsey left in 87.

Also neither Stevie nor Mick mention Lindsey being worried about either Mick or John health as a reason for him leaving, and that was why I focused more on Stevie than the other two.

[michelej1]

That's not to say he was not worried about them, did not care about them or that he was not afraid that either of them could (or) would die on the road as well. However, the bond/love we see between Lindsey, Mick and John now seems to have happened around 95-96 when he brought them in to back up his solo album, and solidified even more during 2001-2002 when they were making SYW. Everyone was in a much better place physically and emotionally. Mick said he and Lindsey has long lunches and talked through a lot of old issues and came to understand each other in a way they never had before and developed a deep friendship that would last no matter what. However, all that happen after Lindsey left in 87.


I think Mick and Lindsey have been very close ever since Tusk, if not earlier. They logged a lot of studio time together and just getting Mick to convince the other band members to go ahead with Lindsey's version of Tusk took a lot of intimacy between them. They may have not have been social friends, exactly, but I think they had a loving and complicated relationship by that time certainly.

There was bitterness after Lindsey left the band, but I think it's very telling that Lindsey wanted to attend Mick's wedding, anyway. He wanted to extend that olive branch.

Michele

[michelej1]

To Steve's point, yes Mick was crazy at the time and he said 15 years ago that Lindsey left, in part, because of the way Mick was acting back then. I totally believe that's true.

Mick not only had the substance abuse problems, but financial problems (caused no doubt by the abuse) and he was miffed at Lindsey for not caring about the fact that Mick so desperately needed the tour money when Lindsey decided to leave the band. So, I'm sure he was especially wacky. When Lindsey complains about that Winnebago in his yard, I think he was trying to run from Mick (and I don't know what John was doing those days, maybe John too) and Stevie. Though with Stevie, I think her not being there for a lot of the recording was as troublesome for him as her being there.

One interesting thing Mick said right after Lindsey left is that if they had not pushed going on the road and just recorded Tango with no tour, then Lindsey might not have left when he did. But that would have been unfair to the rest of them, because if they left it to Lindsey, he would have sat around for another 4 years doing nothing and they would be saying, "Are you in the band or not?". Mick said they really had to put their foot down and insist on touring in 1987 and that's what made Lindsey leave. Otherwise, it might have just hung in limbo.

Michele

[CADreaming]

Though with Stevie, I think her not being there for a lot of the recording was as troublesome for him as her being there.



Michele

Stevie said that was "really hard for him" in the DS doc. And, Lindsey has alluded to that too.

[Tango]

He quit taking coke “a long time ago,” but the booze has been harder to let go. “I haven’t been drunk for five months now,” he announces. With a 46-date tour of America about to begin soon after we meet, followed by European dates including four in Britain in September, he has had to shape up. “I knew I was drinking too much,” he says. “And the more I don’t drink, the more I realise I was really drinking too much.”


"I suppose I was late getting off the bus.”


It seems extraordinary that he still feels so shaky — despite having spent the last 47 years performing in one of the most commercially successful British rock bands since the Beatles.

“It goes way back,” he says. “So this is going to be interesting. I’ll have a glass of wine beforehand, but I don’t want to drink myself into a stupor just so I don’t get frightened. If I have four glasses of wine during a show, that’s cool — so long as I don’t get on the plane and finish off two more bottles.”

...........
As the Fleetwood Mac tour got underway, news broke that Fleetwood’s third marriage had crumbled — it was reported that he had filed for joint custody of his twin 11-year-old daughters.



I'm scratching my head as I read this. Mick's got an addictive personality. He has no self control over money, cocaine, or booze. Yet he sells the stuff, he's thinking four glasses of wine during a show is cool (any of you guys drink 4 glasses of wine during your jobs?) and "news broke" that his marriage had crumbled. And with all of this excess going on, he is filing for joint custody of his twin 11 year old daughters. If he admits to drinking four glasses of wine during a show, what's he doing when he's not performing? Lots of regret expressed about the past, and yet his current course isn't looking too safe either.

[Desiree]

Stevie said that was "really hard for him" in the DS doc. And, Lindsey has alluded to that too.

I think that every time FM parted and then came back together for work, it was the same old thing: getting a working relationship going AGAIN, compartmentalizing(LB) the demons, good moments that make you wonder, bad, so bad you never wanted to do it again, and then you get to tour together! Probably got crazier and crazier as their drug and alcohol use escalated (and NOT just SN and MF). Also, each time it was getting back together with people you love and want but can't be with (because you can't behave like adult human beings and iron things out) so all the longing, anger, lust, etc. just goes into a slow boil until it overflows and we see it at the show or hear about it later.

TITN must have been a real horror for LB! The time he usually got to spend with SN did not happen and when she was there, she was ZONED out. SN said that they started her on 1 mg/2 times a day and she probably left Betty Ford on Klonopin because that was the norm back then (that is a large starter dose, btw, and they didn't know what they know now about benzos) and is enough to make 5'1", 110 lb me with full on untreated ADHD, stay half with it, groggy and really not care what happens, if I could even stay awake at all! Very soon thereafter it was 3 times a day. Now the zone is constant and will require more as time goes on to accomplish. If you've ever been around someone addicted to benzos, it ain't fun and is never productive! I hated the way she looked and behaved during the Klonopin days. She was beautiful but so duhhed out and her costumes, etc. became almost clown like. When '94-'95 showed us a new, clean (finally) Stevie, only then did I start to believe she'd live.
So I'd imagine LB, was scared for SN's life, disgusted by her druggy behavior, pissed about his solo stuff turning into a FM record, and on and on and on...I do believe that as angry as he was and as over her crap as he had to have been, that he still loved her and was afraid she'd OD one time and it would finally be too late! According to Keith Olsen, etc. on SN's BTM, she OD'd several times, said they'd have to scoop her up off the floor...anything we know can probably be multiplied 10-fold so it must have been totally shocking to LB who was still fighting his own addictions and demons to actually see the depths to which SN had sunk. What a story! We all have one, but some people.....:p

[HomerMcvie]

I'm scratching my head as I read this. Mick's got an addictive personality. He has no self control over money, cocaine, or booze. Yet he sells the stuff, he's thinking four glasses of wine during a show is cool (any of you guys drink 4 glasses of wine during your jobs?) and "news broke" that his marriage had crumbled. And with all of this excess going on, he is filing for joint custody of his twin 11 year old daughters. If he admits to drinking four glasses of wine during a show, what's he doing when he's not performing? Lots of regret expressed about the past, and yet his current course isn't looking too safe either.

Four glasses isn't that much. Maybe you're not a drinker, but any drinker knows that 4 isn't that much.
I will play a 3 hour show tonight. I will have a large squeeze bottle sitting atop my guitar amp, filled with 1/2 pint of whiskey, and mixed with ginger ale. And all will be good. No mistakes, no forgotten lyrics...just a mild buzz, that will enhance my playing. Fact.:blob2:

[Desiree]

Four glasses isn't that much. Maybe you're not a drinker, but any drinker knows that 4 isn't that much.
I will play a 3 hour show tonight. I will have a large squeeze bottle sitting atop my guitar amp, filled with 1/2 pint of whiskey, and mixed with ginger ale. And all will be good. No mistakes, no forgotten lyrics...just a mild buzz, that will enhance my playing. Fact.:blob2:

I used to drink socially, now I don't. Simply doesn't make me feel good...unless you are an alcoholic or drink excessively, anyone would admit that 4 glasses of wine each nite 'during' the show is a lot! And, as LB and many other musicians and players have said of that 'enhancement' argument...Bull! You do your best work when you are straight and focused! Plus, that's during the show! What about the hours off? Bad, bad influence for those who have beat their demons down...uhh, everyone of them!!!!!:sorry:

[vivfox]

I used to drink socially, now I don't. Simply doesn't make me feel good...unless you are an alcoholic or drink excessively, anyone would admit that 4 glasses of wine each nite 'during' the show is a lot! And, as LB and many other musicians and players have said of that 'enhancement' argument...Bull! You do your best work when you are straight and focused! Plus, that's during the show! What about the hours off? Bad, bad influence for those who have beat their demons down...uhh, everyone of them!!!!!:sorry:


I don't understand why Mick feels the need to drink 4 glasses a night. Some night's it could be five, six or four. Problem is, you can't just have one. Well some people can actually, but not a former alcoholic. Too bad he just can't live a drug and alcohol free lifestyle.

[HomerMcvie]

And, as LB and many other musicians and players have said of that 'enhancement' argument...Bull! You do your best work when you are straight and focused!

Not necessarily true. At least for me. I used to play with a drummer, who didn't drink. And he'd tell me, "David, I've played with a lot of guitarists over the years, and for most, drinking hurts their playing....you are the ONLY guy I've ever seen, whose playing improves with drinking. You're able to venture out on (successful) tangents, when you've got a buzz". So I do think that for some brains, it improves their playing. Not their dexterity of course, but their thought process. You can see how that could be, right?

I think for me, I'm a VERY right brained, concrete thinker, and a buzz let's me close the concrete plant, and venture into left brain land. If I liked pot, I'd be a pot smoker instead, but I don't...

[michelej1]

Stevie said that was "really hard for him" in the DS doc. And, Lindsey has alluded to that too.

This reminds me of some comment Stevie made about people always wanting her in the studio a lot. She said she didn't know why, but speculated that she must be very vibey. I don't remember the exact quote, but it struck me as amusing.

Michele

[MikeInNV]

This reminds me of some comment Stevie made about people always wanting her in the studio a lot. She said she didn't know why, but speculated that she must be very vibey. I don't remember the exact quote, but it struck me as amusing.

Well, after seeing the IYD documentary, I now see Stevie as much more involved in the production of her music....not at the technical level but at the creative level where she's really trying to capture a specific sound. It seems like she would be good to bounce ideas off of, even if wasn't her songs being worked on.

[CADreaming]

Well, after seeing the IYD documentary, I now see Stevie as much more involved in the production of her music....not at the technical level but at the creative level where she's really trying to capture a specific sound. It seems like she would be good to bounce ideas off of, even if wasn't her songs being worked on.

I really enjoyed seeing that side of her. Especially because the specific sounds or direction she wanted for the songs were some of my favorite parts about those songs. I think she actually is a great producer. Must be a reason why she was credited as such way back to the Walter Egan days.

[Deeshere]

[QUOTE=michelej1;1100902]

One interesting thing Mick said right after Lindsey left is that if they had not pushed going on the road and just recorded Tango with no tour, then Lindsey might not have left when he did. But that would have been unfair to the rest of them, because if they left it to Lindsey, he would have sat around for another 4 years doing nothing and they would be saying, "Are you in the band or not?". Mick said they really had to put their foot down and insist on touring in 1987 and that's what made Lindsey leave. Otherwise, it might have just hung in limbo.

Michele[/QUOTE

Your right Mick has said in interviews that if Lindsey was not pushed to tour he most likely would have stayed in the band and just made records.

I think Lindsey has said many times over the years that he loves being in the studio (that's obvious) but did not like to tour because of the party atmosphere and the increased drug use. So I do think that if he was not pushed to do a tour for TITN he would have stayed and done more albums with the band.

Interestedly enough I remember reading an article (I think it was from 87) where Lindsey kept saying he did not see the need to tour for TITN, that he though it was dumb to think that every time you do an album that a tour must be done to push the album. That he thought that, that was just WB's corporate mentality. He said he felt if the music is good it can stand on it's own with out a tour. But that the members of Fleetwood Mac thought they had to tour and he specifically mentioned talking to Chris about it, and she was the one really pushing for the tour. I say it was that interesting, because I always though Mick was the one that was always pushing the band to do tours because he loved being out on the road. Also this doesn't sit well with the bands stock answer of saying that Chis quit the band in 97 because she hated to tour and could not do it anymore.

I don't know if you've heard it but here's the link to a 1990 Radio Interview with Mick, Chris, and Billy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvKMvklt1k0

Parts of it are hilarious, especially when they are talking about why each of the Fleetwood Mac guitarist left the band, including poor Danny Kirwan. I think it also shows if anyone was bitter about the band breaking up it was Chris. I'm sure Mick was too, but Chris is very catty towards Lindsey in this interview. There's also a lot of talk about how TITN came about and about how they forced Lindsey to make a decision about if he was staying in the band or not.

[Desiree]

I don't understand why Mick feels the need to drink 4 glasses a night. Some night's it could be five, six or four. Problem is, you can't just have one. Well some people can actually, but not a former alcoholic. Too bad he just can't live a drug and alcohol free lifestyle.

There's always a wayward child, dark sheep...:(

[michelej1]

But that the members of Fleetwood Mac thought they had to tour and he specifically mentioned talking to Chris about it, and she was the one really pushing for the tour. I say it was that interesting, because I always though Mick was the one that was always pushing the band to do tours because he loved being out on the road. Also this doesn't sit well with the bands stock answer of saying that Chis quit the band in 97 because she hated to tour and could not do it anymore.


Yes, Chris and Lindsey have switched places in many ways. Back then she was saying how she just LOVED to tour. Then later, I think for Going Home, she said how none of them could ever believe that one of them (one of the five) would ever leave and you got a sense of how upset they really were at the time, but they hid it behind snide, false bravura (which I use instead of bravado, because I like the musical reference:laugh:). All the smack Lindsey talked about her in 2003 was quite similar to the stuff she said about him in 1987.

Michele

[mitzo]

This may sound way off track but I wonder if the increasing restrictions on public smoking played a role in Chris's decision not to tour, at all? I mean, not in the hotel, not on the flight, probably not in the limo, not anywhere in the venue backstage etc. etc. It would make a hardened smoker like her very uncomfortable and likely to just retreat to a mansion in Britain. I have heard that that is the reason why some oldsters do not travel much eg. Joannie Mitchell insists on a private jet, and so on.

[sidwich]

Michele[/QUOTE

Your right Mick has said in interviews that if Lindsey was not pushed to tour he most likely would have stayed in the band and just made records.

I think Lindsey has said many times over the years that he loves being in the studio (that's obvious) but did not like to tour because of the party atmosphere and the increased drug use. So I do think that if he was not pushed to do a tour for TITN he would have stayed and done more albums with the band.

Interestedly enough I remember reading an article (I think it was from 87) where Lindsey kept saying he did not see the need to tour for TITN, that he though it was dumb to think that every time you do an album that a tour must be done to push the album. That he thought that, that was just WB's corporate mentality. He said he felt if the music is good it can stand on it's own with out a tour.

.

LOL, so Lindsey really did want to become Brian Wilson (minus Brian's agoraphobia and other health issues). (For those unfamiliar with that part of the Beach Boys Story, at some point Brian Wilson refused to tour anymore and started spending all of his time in the studio, leaving the rest of the band to tour with session musicians like then young Glen Campbell).

[SteveMacD]

unless you are an alcoholic or drink excessively, anyone would admit that 4 glasses of wine each nite 'during' the show is a lot!
I love how people who've never been on tour and have probably never played a live show somehow feel qualified to talk with any sense of authority about Mick's or anyone else's drinking.

I mean, you people don't actually know Mick. You don't know his drinking habits on or off the road or if he's an alcoholic. To make any assumption one way or the other makes you nothing more than a judgmental twit. And God knows the world needs more judgmental twits.

FROM MY OWN EXPERIENCE OF BEING ON TOUR: One day on the road feels like three or four days in regular time. As a result, things like drinking (and eating, but I guess we're not allowed to talk about why Stevie usually looks a lot fatter at the end of the tour) do significantly pick up on the road, however, they just as significantly slow down afterwards for most people.

And really, four glasses of wine for a 6'7" 215+ pound man who's probably sweating out the alcohol faster than he's putting it in doesn't scream alcoholic to me.

And, as LB and many other musicians and players have said of that 'enhancement' argument...Bull! You do your best work when you are straight and focused!
As somebody who has actually gotten up with a guitar strapped on and played to crowds that have included some of my musical heroes, I will say that a few drinks helps take the edge off. I've never gotten any inspiration or anything like that from drinking (or anything else in my younger days), but it makes me less inhibited when I'm up on stage, and it helps me not over-think things, which is when I really start to mess up.

But, like with anything, it's all an individual thing.

[Desiree]

I love how people who've never been on tour and have probably never played a live show somehow feel qualified to talk with any sense of authority about Mick's or anyone else's drinking.

Before you rant, I doubt you'd say who you are, but a little info on your touring and live show would be of interest to me. And, out of interest, how old are you? And, how do you know that I don't play a live show here and there myself? And, when someone like MF, who has been known to abuse drugs and alcohol all his life and admits it freely, has made millions and gone bankrupt...more than once?has married and divorced 4 times and drinks 4 glasses of wine during work, at a show, HE HAS A PROBLEM by most people's estimate!!!!!!! I might be an addictionologist, too! You just don't know, now do you?

I mean, you people don't actually know Mick. You don't know his drinking habits on or off the road or if he's an alcoholic. To make any assumption one way or the other makes you nothing more than a judgmental twit. And God knows the world needs more judgmental twits.

Judgmental twits? You mean like you? Where do you get off talking like that?

FROM MY OWN EXPERIENCE OF BEING ON TOUR[/U][/B]: One day on the road feels like three or four days in regular time. As a result, things like drinking (and eating, but I guess we're not allowed to talk about why Stevie usually looks a lot fatter at the end of the tour) do significantly pick up on the road, however, they just as significantly slow down afterwards for most people.

Whoppie do da...any time people go thru stressful periods they do things like overeat, over drink, over indulge in many things..no matter what your livelihood ....no one is blind here, we all notice the changes occurring among the players over the course of a tour, most of us are really into music and have seen many, many live shows over our own lifetimes.

And really, four glasses of wine for a 6'7" 215+ pound man who's probably sweating out the alcohol faster than he's putting it in doesn't scream alcoholic to me.

Well, water, among other things is great for hydration and avoids the nasty pitfalls of alcohol.

As somebody who has actually gotten up with a guitar strapped on and played to crowds that have included some of my musical heroes, I will say that a few drinks helps take the edge off. I've never gotten any inspiration or anything like that from drinking (or anything else in my younger days), but it makes me less inhibited when I'm up on stage, and it helps me not over-think things, which is when I really start to mess up.

Your attitude here deserves another, whoppie do da!

But, like with anything, it's all an individual thing.

Exactly...:sorry: but, lighten up and stop taking yourself so seriously!

[Deeshere]

I know that I have read some interviews of Lindsey's where he seems kinda harsh with Chris (the whole burning bridges thing) but I not sure he was really that mad at her for leaving.

I guess I was thinking about this article when I wrote that I was wondering how happy Lindsey would be if Chris decided to rejoin the band. I pulled his quote from: Guitar World Acoustic, Number 59, April 2003

GWA So the pieces were fitting back together again-but evidently Christine wasn't part of the equation anymore. What happened?

Buckingham When we were touring behind The Dance album, you could see that Christine wasn't very happy on the road. When it got to the point where we were making a decision about doing more dates-going to other places in the world and then maybe coming back and doing more stuff in the States-she really just pulled the plug. She didn't want to do it. And I have to say, I was maybe the only person that wasn't giving her a hard time about that, because in some ways I was ambivalent about being up there too, for different reasons. I had once again been sucked back into the black hole of Fleetwood Mac. At some point, for my own desires, I wanted to get back to the body of work that is now the new Fleetwood Mac album, but at the time appeared to be a solo album. I didn't want to languish forever.

So I understood her [Christine's] need to do what she wanted to do, even though she was being pressured to continue. In some ways I probably helped enable her to make that decision, which didn't exactly make me very popular at the time. But she just had to pull out, the same way I did in '87. There was a kinship between us in terms of having to make a decision for your own survival. With the band coming back without her, you could say, "Oh, there's a large piece missing"-and in some ways there is. But it also opened up new possibilities for setting an overall tone for the album.

I think it allowed us to make, certainly, a much ballsier album, and allowed Stevie and myself to at least begin rediscovering our dynamic as a two-part vocal group. Now I don't think that's so well represented on the new album, because a lot of the stuff that's mine was already set, and a lot of her songs were already written along certain lines as well. When we do this again-and I hope we do, in a year or so-and we write from the ground up, I hope we do them as two-part harmony songs. So, really, there's been a whole realm that's opened up by virtue of Christine not being here.

[Deeshere]

All the smack Lindsey talked about her in 2003 was quite similar to the stuff she said about him in 1987.

Michele

Maybe Lindsey decided to pay her back for everything she said about him as soon as he got the chance. :laugh:

[SteveMacD]

Before you rant, I doubt you'd say who you are, but a little info on your touring and live show would be of interest to me.
My name was Steve MacDougall (hence my oh so clever username) up until April. I'm now Stephen Hopkins (though I'm toying with going by Espy Hopkins for stage use, since I have a guitar-playing uncle named Steve Hopkins).

I am roadie for lo-fi indie rock pioneers Guided by Voices and I have worked for them since they reunited in 2010, touring across the United States and even to Oslo, Norway. I have also played some one-off shows with Robert Pollard and Mitch Mitchell. There's a lot of footage of me on YouTube lighting Mitch's cigarettes (which is funny, as I don't smoke). I was part of their entourage when they played Letterman. I fill-in on guitar or bass sometimes at soundchecks and rehearsals (as Homer McVie can attest to).

The two main bands I've been in are Motorhead Mountain and Milko Waif & The Bug-Eyed Mums (with Robert Pollard). Just go to YouTube for more info.

And, out of interest, how old are you?
39

And, how do you know that I don't play a live show here and there myself?
To be fair, I said "probably."

And, when someone like MF, who has been known to abuse drugs and alcohol all his life and admits it freely, has made millions and gone bankrupt...more than once? has married and divorced 4 times and drinks 4 glasses of wine during work, at a show, HE HAS A PROBLEM by most people's estimate!!!!!!!
He was addicted to cocaine by his own admission. However, I don't know if he is an alcoholic. One can be a heavy drinker and still NOT be an alcoholic. I don't know Mick and I refuse to speculate. For all I know, he could easily abstain altogether or stop after one or two drinks and think nothing of it. Just because he chooses not to doesn't mean he can't.

But there were a few straw-man arguments there. He's gotten divorced four times. So what? John McVie is an alcoholic who has gone in and out of sobriety and has only been married twice, the current marriage for 35 or so years.

The bankruptcies. Sure, the substance abuse issues contributed, but so did making bad investments. People without substance abuse/addiction issues go bankrupt all the time because they made bad investments.

Drinking on the job. Okay, this is probably the most ridiculous comment yet. His job is playing drums in a rock band, something most people do as an avocation with their musically inclined drinking buddies. As somebody who's been on tour, I can say that the show is the fun part of touring. Everything's set-up, everyone's there, dressed, ready to go. All of the worry/anxiety that goes with being in motion while traveling is behind them, so they can unwind, relax, start focusing on what they need to do, and get ready to put on a good time for people who've paid a lot of money to be there. Perfect time for some wine, I'd say.


None of those things individually or collectively tell me anything one way or the other about how problematic his drinking is or how many of his issues were brought about because of drinking.


I might be an addictionologist, too! You just don't know, now do you?
Well, I've been a Licensed Social Worker for nearly 13 years and I've worked with enough addiction counsellors to know that having red flags doesn't automatically make somebody an addict.

Whoppie do da...any time people go thru stressful periods they do things like overeat, over drink, over indulge in many things..no matter what your livelihood
People aren't over indulging as a coping mechanism for stress on tour. It's more of a festive thing.

[HomerMcvie]

(as Homer McVie can attest to).


This is a lame assed response, but I have 5 former Ledgies invading my house for the weekend, in 8 hours, so I've gotta get to bed(and prep food before that!), BUT...


Every single word of Steve's post, is spot on. People just don't understand what it's like to be in a band. To run your ass off all day, and then try to compose yourself, to put on a show. A good show. And feel good, and relaxed, doing it.

And that is NO OFFENSE to recovering addicts, but my experience with them, is that they're pissed off at anyone who isn't toeing their line. Again, no offense. Only trying to explain that usually, performers need to take the edge off. Until you've been up there in front of thousands of people, don't pretend that you understand. It's not as cut and dried as it seems...

[Desiree]

[QUOTE=HomerMcvie;1100996]This is a lame assed response, but I have 5 former Ledgies invading my house for the weekend, in 8 hours, so I've gotta get to bed(and prep food before that!), BUT...


Every single word of Steve's post, is spot on. People just don't understand what it's like to be in a band. To run your ass off all day, and then try to compose yourself, to put on a show. A good show. And feel good, and relaxed, doing it.

And, I am sorry, too. I just get pissy when anyone acts like what they do gives them some right that those who do something else don't have. A neurosurgeon has an extremely stressful, demanding job, but he doesn't drink or drug to get thru it! By the way, I am not against recreational drug use, per se, but most of us aren't good at keeping it recreational...life is too hard and self medicating sometimes takes over.


And that is NO OFFENSE to recovering addicts, but my experience with them, is that they're pissed off at anyone who isn't toeing their line. Again, no offense. Only trying to explain that usually, performers need to take the edge off. Until you've been up there in front of thousands of people, don't pretend that you understand. It's not as cut and dried as it seems..

I am not a recovering addict either so no offence taken by me, in fact, I agree, I do however speak to large groups on occasion, luckily, I enjoy it and don't get nervous. But, if I did I sure wouldn't smoke a joint or do a shot beforehand!
No, nothing is cut and dry. If a shot or two, whatever, helps, go for it! But, don't make me pay to come see you all gorked out. I have better ways to spend my money. It all has to do with what you can handle as an individual and how many watchers you have around to make sure you live thru it if you can't handle it. I know my opinion is strong and somewhat unyielding but I've dealt with a lot of drug and alcohol fueled people in my life and done more than my own fair share of imbibing myself! I thank God that I was always able to catch myself and of course we get older and move on at some point...if we're lucky!

[HomerMcvie]

We're talking about musicians, not neurosurgeons. :cool:

Pretty big difference in the importance of their jobs, and their impact on others.

[Desiree]

[QUOTE=HomerMcvie;1101018]We're talking about musicians, not neurosurgeons. :cool:


I understand your thinking, the lines are obscured by many shades of gray...

Pretty big difference in the importance of their jobs, and their impact on others.

Like I said, back in the day watching Stevie on stage so ****ed up she couldn't function, well, I was right there with her so I was loving it! Today I would be mad because I would be straight, for the most part (I'm in the audience.) and upset that I'd wasted my money! It's only fun to be around that if you are in the same state. :shrug: We'll just agree that there are many shades of gray when it come to drinking and drugging.

[HomerMcvie]

[QUOTE=HomerMcvie;1101018]We're talking about musicians, not neurosurgeons. :cool:


I understand your thinking, the lines are obscured by many shades of gray...

Pretty big difference in the importance of their jobs, and their impact on others.

Like I said, back in the day watching Stevie on stage so ****ed up she couldn't function, well, I was right there with her so I was loving it! Today I would be mad because I would be straight, for the most part (I'm in the audience.) and upset that I'd wasted my money! It's only fun to be around that if you are in the same state. :shrug: We'll just agree that there are many shades of gray when it come to drinking and drugging.
Agreed! And I have 5 Ledgies that will be at my house within the hour, and we're gonna party our asses off until tomorrow night!!! Ledgie Pool Party!! Actually, we call it Fleetwood Macstock III.

[michelej1]

I know that I have read some interviews of Lindsey's where he seems kinda harsh with Chris (the whole burning bridges thing) but I not sure he was really that mad at her for leaving.

[/B]

Mad is perhaps the wrong word. I think Lindsey was hurt about Christine leaving. He said that during the Dance tour he was the one who encouraged her to go, if she needed to, as a survival move, the way he'd done it. He said it didn't endear him to the other FM members that he supported Chris in that. He also said that he wanted to get back to his solo album anyway.

But I think Lindsey also felt that if they waited long enough, she would come back after The Dance and he felt hurt that she didn't. As for being angry, I think they may have had words, but ultimately he loves her and vice versa. I don't think the words mean that much.

It's just like him saying that her presence accelerated his and Stevie's break up. I think he means that and he's always said it (not just now that Chris is not in the band), but I don't think him thinking that has ever been a barrier in his feelings for Christine. I do feel that although he isn't close to John and is actually closer to Christine, that when it comes to Christine he always throws in a word for John though, maybe because he feels that it was the men vs. the women at one point and he has a sense of solidarity.

If she came back in the future, I think he'd be very happy, even though he would lose his testosterone and 30% of his room and all the other stuff he complains about.

Michele

[Desiree]

[QUOTE=Desiree;1101022]
Agreed! And I have 5 Ledgies that will be at my house within the hour, and we're gonna party our asses off until tomorrow night!!! Ledgie Pool Party!! Actually, we call it Fleetwood Macstock III.

Well, stay safe, have a blast and rock THE MAC, LOUD! :

[HomerMcvie]

[QUOTE=HomerMcvie;1101027]

Well, stay safe, have a blast and rock THE MAC, LOUD! :

Thank you. We DID. And I've got the worst sunburn I've had in a decade!(it was so beautiful this weekend, that we never really got out of the pool)

[aleuzzi]

It's just like him saying that her presence accelerated his and Stevie's break up. I think he means that and he's always said it (not just now that Chris is not in the band), but I don't think him thinking that has ever been a barrier in his feelings for Christine.

Michele

I had never read or heard this but it makes perfect sense. Thanks for sharing it. Do you know of any places I could check this out?

Christine's sisterly relationship with Stevie had to help Stevie get up the courage to walk out on Lindsey. Plus the McVie divorce might have set the stage, too.

[Desiree]

[QUOTE=Desiree;1101080]

Thank you. We DID. And I've got the worst sunburn I've had in a decade!(it was so beautiful this weekend, that we never really got out of the pool)

Bet you all partied hearty...wish I'd been there, a FM weekend! Sounds like the FUN was well worth the sunburn! Keep yourself slathered, and I do mean slathered in Aloe Vera, and if you start getting all itchy and peelie anyway, let the memories scratch the itch!!!!! :D

[michelej1]

I had never read or heard this but it makes perfect sense. Thanks for sharing it. Do you know of any places I could check this out?



Nicole transcribed the Sound Opinions.org interview and it's in the Lindsey section. This is what he said there:

Another thing is that, really, Christine McVie, when we joined the band, was on the outs with John McVie. They were married when we joined and, if Stevie had any of those thoughts, having another woman to corroborate with, it either enlarged the sense of that being the road or it certainly accelerated it, one of the two.

However, he has pointed this out frequently over the years, in different interviews.

Michele

[Desiree]

If she came back in the future, I think he'd be very happy, even though he would lose his testosterone and 30% of his room and all the other stuff he complains about.

Michele

Hahaha! Funny, but I tend to believe that LB has it exactly the way he likes it now, The Buckingham Nicks Show inside of The Fleetwood Mac Show...and I will take what I can get from here on out!!! :blob1:

[Desiree]

I had never read or heard this but it makes perfect sense. Thanks for sharing it. Do you know of any places I could check this out?

Christine's sisterly relationship with Stevie had to help Stevie get up the courage to walk out on Lindsey. Plus the McVie divorce might have set the stage, too.

From the git go, and I do mean the earliest interviews after their breakup and really it happened pretty fast in the grand scheme of things...joining FM to breaking up...he has always laid that blame at Christine's feet, I really think he believes it too. Stevie was already tired of LB's possessiveness and arrogance, etc.; Christine gave her a much needed older female point of reference and a powerful no holes barred one at that, I'd bet! That was all Stevie needed to break completely free of the romantic relationship. LB "ruled" before so...

[Deeshere]

From the git go, and I do mean the earliest interviews after their breakup and really it happened pretty fast in the grand scheme of things...joining FM to breaking up...he has always laid that blame at Christine's feet, I really think he believes it too. Stevie was already tired of LB's possessiveness and arrogance, etc.; Christine gave her a much needed older female point of reference and a powerful no holes barred one at that, I'd bet! That was all Stevie needed to break completely free of the romantic relationship. LB "ruled" before so...


Desiree you could be my new BF. I've seen several of your post. Your honest and you say what you think (regardless of what anyone thinks) and I really respect that type of attitude. Keep it up the world need more honesty in it. :thumbsup:

[iamnotafraid]

Christine gave her a much needed older female point of reference and a powerful no holes barred one at that, I'd bet!

Much needed?

I wonder if Christine gave Stevie advice
on sleeping with Mick?

[applebucked]

Much needed?

I wonder if Christine gave Stevie advice
on sleeping with Mick?

Sleeping with someone else, possible. Sleeping with Mick? Chris would head for Denial-ville! :lol:

[Deeshere]

Much needed?

I wonder if Christine gave Stevie advice
on sleeping with Mick?

No, I think after Rumours blew up, Stevie and Chris were not as close as they were during the early days, so she wouldn't be giving Stevie that advice ;). That's not to say that they were not friends or did not talk, but once they became famous Stevie's "girls" started to go with Stevie everywhere. So, I doubt Stevie and Chris got to have a lot of good old bonding time like they did in Sausalito.

[michelej1]

Hahaha! Funny, but I tend to believe that LB has it exactly the way he likes it now, The Buckingham Nicks Show inside of The Fleetwood Mac Show...and I will take what I can get from here on out!!! :blob1:

I don't think he has it how he likes it because he wants more new music. Christine could get him more music from Stevie. Furthermore, with merchandising, I think a reunion tour would be very profitable, even though they would have to split it between 5 people, not 4. Not that I think Christine would ever tour, anyway.

Michele

[jbrownsjr]

Much needed?

I wonder if Christine gave Stevie advice
on sleeping with Mick?

Well by that time she was no spring chicken, and/or naïve little flower.

[Desiree]

Desiree you could be my new BF. I've seen several of your post. Your honest and you say what you think (regardless of what anyone thinks) and I really respect that type of attitude. Keep it up the world need more honesty in it. :thumbsup:

Thank you, Deeshere, my new BF .:laugh: I just say what I think and try not to say what I can't back up. If I'm wrong about something, I have no trouble saying so and making it right. But, I'll try hard to persuade you if I think I'm truly right One of the best things about getting older for me has been the sure knowledge that I've grown from my experiences. I don't have to be right, heck, no one does. Just live and learn. And respect everyone's differences of opinion, at least really listen...you just might learn something, right?:o

[SteveMacD]

I think saying Lindsey "blames" Christine for the break-up is probably a little strong.

Stevie and Lindsey's relationship was pretty rocky when they joined Fleetwood Mac as it was. After they joined, Lindsey didn't have complete control over everything anymore, which had to be empowering for Stevie. It put her on equal footing with Lindsey. Christine and John were only nominally married at that point, and I think seeing what Christine was doing gave Stevie the courage to do the same. The bottom line is that Stevie wouldn't have split with Lindsey if she was happy with their relationship, and I don't think Christine had any input on THAT point.

[elle]

I think saying Lindsey "blames" Christine for the break-up is probably a little strong.

Stevie and Lindsey's relationship was pretty rocky when they joined Fleetwood Mac as it was. After they joined, Lindsey didn't have complete control over everything anymore, which had to be empowering for Stevie. It put her on equal footing with Lindsey. Christine and John were only nominally married at that point, and I think seeing what Christine was doing gave Stevie the courage to do the same. The bottom line is that Stevie wouldn't have split with Lindsey if she was happy with their relationship, and I don't think Christine had any input on THAT point.

yup, that's what LB said here, among i'm sure many other times:
when asked about rumours era recording experience he said how stevie and christine were egging each other on about being unhappy with their respective relationships and leaving him and JMV and that if SN and CM weren't together in the similar situation maybe those relationships could've still been salvaged or at least dragged on for a while longer. he also said that his and stevie's relationship was on the rocks for a while before that, that she was moving away from him and the way it sounded was like he's thinking he was gonna be dumped sooner or later anyway. ;)
http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showpost.php?p=1026500&postcount=85

[Desiree]

Well by that time she was no spring chicken, and/or naïve little flower.

Somehow, I don't think Stevie ever needed schooling in sex...she seemed to have that down relatively early on according to statements made about her moving upward with it's, uh...help! And, please, I make no judgements about Stevie's choices or anyone else's for that matter. Just repeating what's already out there. :shrug:

[CADreaming]

I think saying Lindsey "blames" Christine for the break-up is probably a little strong.

Stevie and Lindsey's relationship was pretty rocky when they joined Fleetwood Mac as it was. After they joined, Lindsey didn't have complete control over everything anymore, which had to be empowering for Stevie. It put her on equal footing with Lindsey. Christine and John were only nominally married at that point, and I think seeing what Christine was doing gave Stevie the courage to do the same. The bottom line is that Stevie wouldn't have split with Lindsey if she was happy with their relationship, and I don't think Christine had any input on THAT point.

True, but LB has said that he felt it may have been worked out, if Stevie had not had Christine to commiserate with about their men, meaning something Stevie may not have made a big deal out of suddenly became a big deal since Christine was I'm sure griping to her about John and Stevie probably wanted to have something in common with Chris.

[jbrownsjr]

Somehow, I don't think Stevie ever needed schooling in sex...she seemed to have that down relatively early on according to statements made about her moving upward with it's, uh...help! And, please, I make no judgements about Stevie's choices or anyone else's for that matter. Just repeating what's already out there. :shrug:

No judgements taken... I was just adding...

[jbrownsjr]

True, but LB has said that he felt it may have been worked out, if Stevie had not had Christine to commiserate with about their men, meaning something Stevie may not have made a big deal out of suddenly became a big deal since Christine was I'm sure griping to her about John and Stevie probably wanted to have something in common with Chris.

I don't think either one of them (Christine or Stevie) could change the outcomes of either relationship. Egging on, sure... but you can never really talk a friend in or out of a relationship.

[CADreaming]

I don't think either one of them (Christine or Stevie) could change the outcomes of either relationship. Egging on, sure... but you can never really talk a friend in or out of a relationship.

Well, friends can certainly encourage a person to either work on the relationship or convince you all men are pigs. :laugh: And, if you are a people pleaser and are seeking approval from someone who is older and you look up to, sometimes you make decisions that you wouldn't necessarily make if you didn't have that influence / example in your life.

I think that's what LB was saying. The influence was there for Stevie and it made their situation worse, in his eyes.

[Deeshere]

I don't think either one of them (Christine or Stevie) could change the outcomes of either relationship. Egging on, sure... but you can never really talk a friend in or out of a relationship.

That is true. If a relationship is solid then it doesn't matter what someone says to you, you try and work your problems out together.

Stevie and Lindsey have both said that even before Fleetwood Mac they had problems. I think Stevie left Lindsey once or twice (well I guess 2 times because after joining Fleetwood mac she left him for the 3rd time and he's never going back :laugh:) before they joined Fleetwood Mac.

However, both Stevie and Lindsey think thier problems that were fixable, because both Lindsey and Stevie have recently come out and said that they both believe that if they never joined Fleetwood Mac, they would have stayed together, gotten married and had kids (I know during the Oprah interview she said they may have gotten married and had kids, but in her last interview she seemed pretty certain it would have happened).

Now I would not say Christine broke them up. Again, if you are happy, no one can tear your relationship up, also Stevie was most definitely an adult and is very stubborn, so if she wanted to stay with Lindsey she most definitely would have.

However, Chris & Stevie obviously spent many nights together talking about the unhappy state of their relationships, hiding in each other's room and most likely telling each other to dump their husband/partner and move on which they both did.

I'm not sure how close Stevie and John were back in the early days ( I know she adores him now) but, in the early days John was drinking heavily and he had his mate Mick there to talk to about his problems, so I think they were just working friends)

But Lindsey has said that from the very beginning he felt a cosmic connection with Chris and they were actually pretty good friends. You can see them joking around and working quite well together. So I can see that his feelings would be hurt (as I think mine would be) if you found out that someone you liked, admired and felt a friendship towards was telling your partner that they need to get out of your relationship, rather than trying to help you out, by telling them to try and talk it out.

I say talk it out, because again Stevie is now coming out and saying Lindsey did not know how unhappy she was in the relationship or even why she was so unhappy when she left him. So it kind of seems to me if the two of them had actually talked about their problems in the beginning, they might still be together and that is why Lindsey for some reason keeps bringing it up.

[CADreaming]

Stevie and Lindsey have both said that even before Fleetwood Mac they had problems. I think Stevie left Lindsey once or twice (well I guess 2 times because after joining Fleetwood mac she left him for the 3rd time and he's never going back :laugh:) before they joined Fleetwood Mac.

Wasn't the "3rd time" added later in live versions and not in the recorded version?


Now I would not say Christine broke them up....

However, Chris & Stevie obviously spent many nights together talking about the unhappy state of their relationships, hiding in each other's room and most likely telling each other to dump their husband/partner and move on which they both did.

Yeah, Christine didn't break them up. But, under the influence of some wine, did she point out things about Lindsey that she thought Stevie shouldn't have to put up with and tell her she was young and point out that she wasn't tied (married) to him anyway and she should play the field? Probably. Or Stevie could have just noticed what a great time Christine was having with Curry Grant and realize what a drag it was to always have Lindsey breathing down her neck about her socializing...



But Lindsey has said that from the very beginning he felt a cosmic connection with Chris and they were actually pretty good friends. You can see them joking around and working quite well together. So I can see that his feelings would be hurt (as I think mine would be) if you found out that someone you liked, admired and felt a friendship towards was telling your partner that they need to get out of your relationship, rather than trying to help you out, by telling them to try and talk it out.

But the guys were all holed up in their own place with a bunch of girls, partying too. So, while Stevie is commiserating with Chris, Lindsey is commiserating with John...

[Deeshere]

Wasn't the "3rd time" added later in live versions and not in the recorded version?

But the guys were all holed up in their own place with a bunch of girls, partying too. So, while Stevie is commiserating with Chris, Lindsey is commiserating with John...

You maybe right, I did see an old 76 video and I think in the video he only sang 2 times so I guess the 3 times came later. I seems Stevie and Lindsey were on again and off again for a good long time. Stevie's Journal dated August 24, 1977 said that Lindsey was being a A**Hole to her on the plane again and she could see their relationship was coming to and end.


Also, the guys were all holed up together after they finished recording for the night (a lot of times maybe 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning) and also on the bands day off (and I believe there were very few days off), but Lindsey and Chris saw each other just about every day in the studio while recording because they are both musicians and spent what 12-14 hours a day together when they were recording and working on songs.

Stevie was not there near as much, because she did not play an instrument and so my understanding is she would come to the studio when the band was recording the lyrics of a song or if they were working on her songs. I have read that lot of the time Stevie spend time by herself writing in lyrics and doing other things.

[CADreaming]

You maybe right, I did see an old 76 video and I think in the video he only sang 2 times so I guess the 3 times came later. I seems Stevie and Lindsey were on again and off again for a good long time. Stevie's Journal dated August 24, 1977 said that Lindsey was being a A**Hole to her on the plane again and she could see their relationship was coming to and end.

Lol! Right! Thought she had realized that in '76 or '75 or '74...that was one really slow end, because there they were being all couply again in '78...

Also, the guys were all holed up together after they finished recording for the night (a lot of times maybe 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning) and also on the bands day off (and I believe there were very few days off), but Lindsey and Chris saw each other just about every day in the studio while recording because they are both musicians and spent what 12-14 hours a day together when they were recording and working on songs.

Stevie was not there near as much, because she did not play an instrument and so my understanding is she would come to the studio when the band was recording the lyrics of a song or if they were working on her songs. I have read that lot of the time Stevie spend time by herself writing in lyrics and doing other things.

But, even during Rumours & Tusk eras she was around a lot more than Mirage and obviously Tango.

[michelej1]

I think saying Lindsey "blames" Christine for the break-up is probably a little strong.

Stevie and Lindsey's relationship was pretty rocky when they joined Fleetwood Mac as it was. After they joined, Lindsey didn't have complete control over everything anymore, which had to be empowering for Stevie. It put her on equal footing with Lindsey. Christine and John were only nominally married at that point, and I think seeing what Christine was doing gave Stevie the courage to do the same. The bottom line is that Stevie wouldn't have split with Lindsey if she was happy with their relationship, and I don't think Christine had any input on THAT point.

I agree with this. The way I imagine it, I would find it unlikely that Christine actually encouraged Stevie to leave so much as just having someone to commiserate with who was also separating made it seem (to Stevie) like it wouldn't be such a risky thing to do for the band's stability.

Stevie said that she had been trying to hold it together ever since she and Lindsey joined the band and, if they hadn't gotten that offer from Mick, I think she would have walked anyway, at least temporarily, as she had in the past (although she has said that when her parents sent her back to school, they would have supported Lindsey too, if need be). Being in FM and having that initial success probably kept them together a little longer, because she didn't want to endanger that income and exposure. And when Christine left John without planning to break up the band, Stevie probably felt more strongly that she could leave without everything falling apart for FM too.

She repeats that they weren't about to let the men force them out of the band (i.e. when she talks about Think About It). I think having someone else breaking up at the same time made her more certain that she could eave Lindsey without it resulting in her being kicked out of FM.

I think Christine's influence sprang more from the fact that she left John and Stevie had that example of how things would play out if she left too, rather than from Christine advising Stevie to leave anyone.

Michele

[applebucked]

True. :nod:

Besides, Christine doesn't seem the type who would advise her on those aspects. If there's something wrong musically, maybe. But on these kinds of things? :distress:

[michelej1]

But the guys were all holed up in their own place with a bunch of girls, partying too. So, while Stevie is commiserating with Chris, Lindsey is commiserating with John...

Yeah, I remember when Lindsey would describe Rumours, he would say that they were all talking to each other, except for John, because John didn't write songs. So, he seemed aware that John's side of things wasn't being reflected in the album, anyway, even if he got his say behind the scenes.

I think Christine was commiserating with Lindsey a little too. I think of that one interview where she mentioned that he had been moping around and then he started to get a few girlfriends together and his spirits looked up. Michele

[applebucked]

In other words, Chris was the band's Agony Aunt. :lol:

[michelej1]

True. :nod:

Besides, Christine doesn't seem the type who would advise her on those aspects. If there's something wrong musically, maybe. But on these kinds of things? :distress:

Then again, if you believe Carol Anne, Christine sort of gave CAH a test when she started dating Lindsey to see if she passed muster. Later, CAH says that Christine would always go out with her and say she was keeping an eye on her for Lindsey, but CAH thought she was really making sure CAH was staying away from Dennis Wilson.

Michele

[applebucked]

Then again, if you believe Carol Anne, Christine sort of gave CAH a test when she started dating Lindsey to see if she passed muster. Later, CAH says that Christine would always go out with her and say she was keeping an eye on her for Lindsey, but CAH thought she was really making sure CAH was staying away from Dennis Wilson.
That must be really hard for CAH. :lol: Knowing Christine and her unwavering loyalty (and what can happen if she messes with her).

[ejb1969]

I think saying Lindsey "blames" Christine for the break-up is probably a little strong.

Stevie and Lindsey's relationship was pretty rocky when they joined Fleetwood Mac as it was. After they joined, Lindsey didn't have complete control over everything anymore, which had to be empowering for Stevie. It put her on equal footing with Lindsey. Christine and John were only nominally married at that point, and I think seeing what Christine was doing gave Stevie the courage to do the same. The bottom line is that Stevie wouldn't have split with Lindsey if she was happy with their relationship, and I don't think Christine had any input on THAT point.

I agree. Women's Lib and the ERA were hot politically too; so there may have been some cultural influence at play.

Also, it's not likely that Chris would deliberately meddle in a situation that had the potential to break up the band.

[Deeshere]

Then again, if you believe Carol Anne, Christine sort of gave CAH a test when she started dating Lindsey to see if she passed muster. Later, CAH says that Christine would always go out with her and say she was keeping an eye on her for Lindsey, but CAH thought she was really making sure CAH was staying away from Dennis Wilson.

Michele

I think Christine hung around her for both of those reasons. 1) so lindsey would not be upset with her that she left her alone with a guy and 2) so Christine would not be upset she left Carol alone with a guy that was also her boyfriend.

I looks like those suspicions may have been right, because Dennis said he slept with Carol and even though she vehemently denies it. Lindsey obviously believed Dennis because in later (think 87) interview Lindsey said he always liked Dennis even though Dennis had slept with one of his girlfriends.

[iamnotafraid]

Sleeping with someone else, possible...

So she was kind of like Stevie's Madam.

[iamnotafraid]

No, I think after Rumours blew up, Stevie and Chris were not as close as they were during the early days, so she wouldn't be giving Stevie that advice ;). ...


I'd like to hear some of their conversations.
Sometimes misery loves company as the old
saying goes. And I'd bet money that Christine
and John's relationship didn't do Lindsey any
favors.

[CADreaming]

So she was kind of like Stevie's Madam.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[michelej1]

I looks like those suspicions may have been right, because Dennis said he slept with Carol and even though she vehemently denies it. Lindsey obviously believed Dennis because in later (think 87) interview Lindsey said he always liked Dennis even though Dennis had slept with one of his girlfriends.

I guess it was more than a suspicion according to Carol. Dennis actually told Christine that he slept with Carol, but when confronted Carol said that Dennis was lying. At the time, it seems like Lindsey at least acted like he believed CAH (although inside he probably didn't) and stood by her, but Christine thought Carol was lying and was really hurt.

Michele

[CADreaming]

I guess it was more than a suspicion according to Carol. Dennis actually told Christine that he slept with Carol, but when confronted Carol said that Dennis was lying. At the time, it seems like Lindsey at least acted like he believed CAH (although inside he probably didn't) and stood by her, but Christine thought Carol was lying and was really hurt.

Michele

Yeah...I thought she was lying too. :laugh:

[bombaysaffires]

Well, friends can certainly encourage a person to either work on the relationship or convince you all men are pigs. :laugh: And, if you are a people pleaser and are seeking approval from someone who is older and you look up to, sometimes you make decisions that you wouldn't necessarily make if you didn't have that influence / example in your life.

I think that's what LB was saying. The influence was there for Stevie and it made their situation worse, in his eyes.

well I think Lindsey is still in some form of denial about their relationship in those days.

Stevie has said in interviews waaay back that she and Lindsey were about to break up right when FMac came calling. Her words were that "we couldn't break up and join FM at the same time. It was too much for one heart to take. So we didn't. We stayed together for over a year" and then she talked about how they started making money, and "I had nice apartment, I could go into a store and buy some clothes, so I felt better. And Lindsey felt better" and how they just "rode that airstream" -- the high of joining hte band, recording a great album, touring etc etc. Then "when we had all 'airstreamed out' we realized that nothing had really changed" in the relationship and it still wasn't working.

So maybe LB is hanging onto that year-ish period where Stevie opted not to leave and add to all the upheaval going on in their careers. Maybe she was also being savvy and not busting up their duo in case the FM situation didn't work out. Who knows. She's not dumb. But clearly Stevie didn't see that period as a major resurgence of their relationship, just a "hanging in" period to see if it would get better, and it didn't. Seems like Lindsey maybe really thought they had turned a corner and gotten back on track. YMMV

[CADreaming]

well I think Lindsey is still in some form of denial about their relationship in those days.

Stevie has said in interviews waaay back that she and Lindsey were about to break up right when FMac came calling. Her words were that "we couldn't break up and join FM at the same time. It was too much for one heart to take. So we didn't. We stayed together for over a year" and then she talked about how they started making money, and "I had nice apartment, I could go into a store and buy some clothes, so I felt better. And Lindsey felt better" and how they just "rode that airstream" -- the high of joining hte band, recording a great album, touring etc etc. Then "when we had all 'airstreamed out' we realized that nothing had really changed" in the relationship and it still wasn't working.

So maybe LB is hanging onto that year-ish period where Stevie opted not to leave and add to all the upheaval going on in their careers. Maybe she was also being savvy and not busting up their duo in case the FM situation didn't work out. Who knows. She's not dumb. But clearly Stevie didn't see that period as a major resurgence of their relationship, just a "hanging in" period to see if it would get better, and it didn't. Seems like Lindsey maybe really thought they had turned a corner and gotten back on track. YMMV

Wait is that airstream a quote from Stevie or is that you? Because that's just funny!

I've heard her go from one extreme to the other as she is prone to do - she has made it sound like things were just not fun to they were practically broken up - I think she's a bit wishy washy anyway, as most good Geminis are, so... I can see how Lindsey might have been confused about their status. He prob still is. :laugh: Like he asked her at MSG earlier, "The war's over, right?" And she said, "The war's pretty good." (Meaning, make no mistake Mr. Buckingham, there is still a war. But, I'm winning!) Hahaha

[bombaysaffires]

Wait is that airstream a quote from Stevie or is that you? Because that's just funny!

I've heard her go from one extreme to the other as she is prone to do - she has made it sound like things were just not fun to they were practically broken up - I think she's a bit wishy washy anyway, as most good Geminis are, so... I can see how Lindsey might have been confused about their status. He prob still is. :laugh: Like he asked her at MSG earlier, "The war's over, right?" And she said, "The war's pretty good." (Meaning, make no mistake Mr. Buckingham, there is still a war. But, I'm winning!) Hahaha


no, the airstream quote was all Stevie. :nod:

the parts in quotes were from her mouth. The interview was during her media blitz before Bella Donna.. so like 80/81. I have several of her interviews still on cassette from those days. I keep thinking one day I'm going to transcribe them and post them, because it can be really fun to listen to her version of history 30 years ago, to how she tells things now. ;)

[CADreaming]

no, the airstream quote was all Stevie. :nod:

the parts in quotes were from her mouth. The interview was during her media blitz before Bella Donna.. so like 80/81. I have several of her interviews still on cassette from those days. I keep thinking one day I'm going to transcribe them and post them, because it can be really fun to listen to her version of history 30 years ago, to how she tells things now. ;)

Oh that would be awesome to read. She cracks me up.

[applebucked]

So she was kind of like Stevie's Madam.

You did not just put that thought in my head. :laugh: "I'll hook you up with Stevie here. Blonde, petite, with a voice that can sing to the heavens, among other things...You will love her."

Ooh, I would love to read that interview too.

[Deeshere]

well I think Lindsey is still in some form of denial about their relationship in those days.

So maybe LB is hanging onto that year-ish period where Stevie opted not to leave and add to all the upheaval going on in their careers. Maybe she was also being savvy and not busting up their duo in case the FM situation didn't work out. Who knows. She's not dumb. But clearly Stevie didn't see that period as a major resurgence of their relationship, just a "hanging in" period to see if it would get better, and it didn't. Seems like Lindsey maybe really thought they had turned a corner and gotten back on track. YMMV

I don't think Lindsey was in denial, I just don't think Stevie was very clear with him about how she was feeling. She says she's the mediator, so it would stand to reason that she was giving him mixed messages.
On one hand saying she did not want to be with him anymore because it was too hard to work together and have a relationship and then on the other hand telling him how she still loved him and always would.

In light of all the new revelations Stevie and Lindsey have been giving about their relationship, I think it's safe to say she was not talking to Lindsey about her true feelings because she was afraid it would lead to another fight and she did not want to deal with it.

By the way in case anyone thinks I don't like Stevie. I just want to make clear that I love both Stevie and Lindsey, I have CD's and downloads of both of their solo works as well as Fleetwood Mac. I am only trying to make the picture bigger to show that I believe both of them had logical reasons for doing and saying what they did.

Unfortunately for both of them there was a lot of love between them, but they were just on different wave lengths.

[michelej1]

I think one problem is that the press and the band tend to summarize things for the sake of an interview. So, Stevie probably wasn't clear to Lindsey on why she left, because she didn't leave just one time and they didn't have just one clean, clear cut break up. They seem to have had fights that left the relationship in limbo: not fully together, not living as husband and wife like they had practically done earlier. Yet, they were still sleeping together sometimes. So, they were sometimes lovers or enemies with benefits. Then, they'd fight and they'd quasi-break up all over again.

I don't think it was one big show down, but a series of them. So, it's not like they could have a conversation that laid all the grievances out, because it was all just one big continued glob of grievance, reconciliation and grievance.

Michele

[michelej1]

You did not just put that thought in my head. :laugh: "I'll hook you up with Stevie here. Blonde, petite, with a voice that can sing to the heavens, among other things...You will love her."



This line reminds me of, Sister Honey.

Michele

[applebucked]

In light of all the new revelations Stevie and Lindsey have been giving about their relationship, I think it's safe to say she was not talking to Lindsey about her true feelings because she was afraid it would lead to another fight and she did not want to deal with it.

And knowing Lindsey's past history with his sudden outbursts, quite justifiable.

I think one problem is that the press and the band tend to summarize things for the sake of an interview. So, Stevie probably wasn't clear to Lindsey on why she left, because she didn't leave just one time and they didn't have just one clean, clear cut break up. They seem to have had fights that left the relationship in limbo: not fully together, not living as husband and wife like they had practically done earlier. Yet, they were still sleeping together sometimes. So, they were sometimes lovers or enemies with benefits. Then, they'd fight and they'd quasi-break up all over again.

I don't think it was one big show down, but a series of them. So, it's not like they could have a conversation that laid all the grievances out, because it was all just one big continued glob of grievance, reconciliation and grievance.
This what makes getting the full picture frustrating. So much missing pieces, contradictions, red herrings. My head is spinning from all this

This line reminds me of, Sister Honey.
On hindsight, it is a Sister Honey reference. :lol:

[iamnotafraid]

You did not just put that thought in my head. :laugh: "I'll hook you up with Stevie here. Blonde, petite, with a voice that can sing to the heavens, among other things...You will love her."



We need a timeline of Stevie's jobs to put things
in perspective.

Waitress
Maid
Call Girl
Rock Star

Something like that.

[Desiree]

We need a timeline of Stevie's jobs to put things
in perspective.

Waitress
Maid
Call Girl
Rock Star

Something like that.

Call girl! She may have gotten around but I don't think she got paid!!!!:p

[Deeshere]

You girls be nice :nod: Stevie's may have had lots of boyfriends (She says that she did not date as many guys as people think), but either way she was never, never a call girl.

[fairydust75]

From the git go, and I do mean the earliest interviews after their breakup and really it happened pretty fast in the grand scheme of things...joining FM to breaking up...he has always laid that blame at Christine's feet, I really think he believes it too. Stevie was already tired of LB's possessiveness and arrogance, etc.; Christine gave her a much needed older female point of reference and a powerful no holes barred one at that, I'd bet! That was all Stevie needed to break completely free of the romantic relationship. LB "ruled" before so...


There was also an interview, maybe a meet n greet during his solo tour for Under the skin/Gift of screws era that he even thought Christine had meddled again in a similar fashion during The Dance era as well.

[applebucked]

There was also an interview, maybe a meet n greet during his solo tour for Under the skin/Gift of screws era that he even thought Christine had meddled again in a similar fashion during The Dance era as well.
tsk, tsk, tsk, Christine is always meddling with everyone's personal business.

[Deeshere]

There was also an interview, maybe a meet n greet during his solo tour for Under the skin/Gift of screws era that he even thought Christine had meddled again in a similar fashion during The Dance era as well.

I read a post a while back where someone else mentioned the same thing, I'm intrigued, I'm going to have to Google and find the article.

I may ruffle some feathers here, but as much as I like Christine, I have always thought she was jealous of Stevie and Lindsey's relationship. I mean I would be jealous and I didn't even have to watch Lindsey fawn all over Stevie day in and day out, while having serious marital problems.

I always remember the old Fleetwood Mac pic before Stevie and Lindsey broke up where Lindsey is in he green velvet suit with his arm around Stevie's neck holding her tightly and smiling. Over to the side you see John standing with his hands at his sides and Christine beside him looking over at Stevie and Lindsey with a big smile and trying to grab Johns hand and put his arm around her.

I know a lot of people speculate that maybe Christine and Lindsey had an affair during The Dance Tour, but I don't see it especially if in later interviews he was talking about how Chris may have or tried to kibosh him trying to get back together with Stevie during The Dance Tour.

[bombaysaffires]

There was also an interview, maybe a meet n greet during his solo tour for Under the skin/Gift of screws era that he even thought Christine had meddled again in a similar fashion during The Dance era as well.

what did he say about it??

[SteveMacD]

There was also an interview, maybe a meet n greet during his solo tour for Under the skin/Gift of screws era that he even thought Christine had meddled again in a similar fashion during The Dance era as well.
Wasn't Kristen pregnant with their first child on The Dance tour?

[fairydust75]

Wasn't Kristen pregnant with their first child on The Dance tour?

I believe he was dating her, but not pregnant yet. I think he was referring to when the reunion was just starting to come together.

[fairydust75]

what did he say about it??

I'll haft to research it a bit to refresh my memory, probably should have donecthst before I posted. :sorry:
I'll post when I get my facts straight, unless somebody else can put their fingers on it.
I apologise for not having my s*#t together..:confused:

[bombaysaffires]

I'll haft to research it a bit to refresh my memory, probably should have donecthst before I posted. :sorry:
I'll post when I get my facts straight, unless somebody else can put their fingers on it.
I apologise for not having my s*#t together..:confused:

eh, no worries. If you do find it at some point tho, I'd love to hear what he had to say.

tut,tut, Lindsey, always blaming others for snags in your relationship with Stevie..... ;)

[SteveMacD]

I believe he was dating her, but not pregnant yet. I think he was referring to when the reunion was just starting to come together.
Ah. Well, FWIW, per LB's Penguin bio, "On July 8, 1998, Lindsey, along with girlfriend Kristen Messner, welcomed a son, William Gregory Buckingham, weighing 7 pounds 6 ounces," so she got pregnant on tour, probably in early to mid-October.

[Deeshere]

Ah. Well, FWIW, per LB's Penguin bio, "On July 8, 1998, Lindsey, along with girlfriend Kristen Messner, welcomed a son, William Gregory Buckingham, weighing 7 pounds 6 ounces," so she got pregnant on tour, probably in early to mid-October.

Actually, although there's really no way to know for sure, will was born July 8, 1998, so most people have speculated Lindsey's birthday October 3 must have been a really good night for him. ;):laugh:

[applebucked]

Most definitely it was. :laugh:

[michelej1]

I'll haft to research it a bit to refresh my memory, probably should have donecthst before I posted. :sorry:
I'll post when I get my facts straight, unless somebody else can put their fingers on it.
I apologise for not having my s*#t together..:confused:

While, in 1997, Lindsey might have made the comment that Christine exacerbated tensions between him and Stevie, I believe that he was referencing an earlier time, still talking about what had happened in the seventies, not anything that happened in 1997, even if he spoke of it then, as is his wont.

Now, Stevie did say a few years after the Dance that, in the end, even Christine knew that SnL just wanted to sing together. So, I was always curious about that throwaway comment from her and, of course, I was very troubled to have Stevie and Lindsey do Big Love and Landslide on Letterman and at the RRHOF.

Michele

[applebucked]

Now, Stevie did say a few years after the Dance that, in the end, even Christine knew that SnL just wanted to sing together. So, I was always curious about that throwaway comment from her and, of course, I was very troubled to have Stevie and Lindsey do Big Love and Landslide on Letterman and at the RRHOF.

I'm still baffled about this too. :confused: Why just them in the first place?

[iamnotafraid]

You girls be nice :nod: Stevie's may have had lots of boyfriends, but she was never, never a call girl.


You girls? Whom are you speaking to?

In Stevie's upcoming autobiography Through The
Eyes Of A Dragon (Simon And Schuster), chapter
seven is titled "Making It The Hard Way". So I guess
we will find out all about the call girl year(s).

[SteveMacD]

Actually, although there's really no way to know for sure, will was born July 8, 1998, so most people have speculated Lindsey's birthday October 3 must have been a really good night for him. ;):laugh:
Eh, I can't imagine being in the mood after a show in Cincinnati...Of course, I'm from Dayton. Although, it WAS a good show.

[Desiree]

You girls be nice :nod: Stevie's may have had lots of boyfriends (She says that she did not date as many guys as people think), but either way she was never, never a call girl.

I've always thought she seemed to have boyfriends for the periods she was home or even on the road solo if she was working with someone...Jimmy Iovine comes to mind. And, I'm sure she partook of what was available to her when she wanted to for sexual release. I sure hope she never white washes the realities of her life because she has never made excuses and why should she? I respect the fact that she has lived life on her own terms, to the degree that that is ever really possible.

And, Stevie, a call girl...that's one of those comments that makes me go, huh? :shrug:

[michelej1]

Eh, I can't imagine being in the mood after a show in Cincinnati...Of course, I'm from Dayton. Although, it WAS a good show.

John said his girls only like to travel with him to shows in places like NYC, but I guess when you're still dating, you're all lovey dovey and go on tour to cities that aren't exciting. Once you've been married for 10 years you're like, "Yeah, let me know when you'll be in Paris. Maybe I'll join you then."

Michele

[Desiree]

There was also an interview, maybe a meet n greet during his solo tour for Under the skin/Gift of screws era that he even thought Christine had meddled again in a similar fashion during The Dance era as well.

It's interesting to read this because while I've been going thru what I can find on The Dance Tour, I began to wonder what Christine thought of the very obvious interaction between Stevie and LB...you can see her watching them during many of the videos...do you remember how she meddled? I do remember towards the end of her time with FM someone asked her about S&L ever getting back together and she burst everyone's bubble with a not so nice seeming, never going to happen type answer. Wonder if she's the one who didn't approve in Everybody Finds Out?

[Desiree]

No judgements taken... I was just adding...

Misunderstanding alert!:distress: I was just afraid people might think I was judging! Didn't think you were. ;)

[Desiree]

Well, friends can certainly encourage a person to either work on the relationship or convince you all men are pigs. :laugh: And, if you are a people pleaser and are seeking approval from someone who is older and you look up to, sometimes you make decisions that you wouldn't necessarily make if you didn't have that influence / example in your life.

I think that's what LB was saying. The influence was there for Stevie and it made their situation worse, in his eyes.

Yep, what you said...

[Desiree]

I read a post a while back where someone else mentioned the same thing, I'm intrigued, I'm going to have to Google and find the article.

Me, too! Never heard anything about that!

I know a lot of people speculate that maybe Christine and Lindsey had an affair during The Dance Tour, but I don't see it especially if in later interviews he was talking about how Chris may have or tried to kibosh him trying to get back together with Stevie during The Dance Tour.

I think that neither Stevie nor Christine would ever have crossed THAT line with Lindsey and John. Most female friends hold to that line especially when a relationship has been of the nature theirs were.

What interviews? I never read them...info, please!!!

[applebucked]

I know a lot of people speculate that maybe Christine and Lindsey had an affair during The Dance Tour, but I don't see it especially if in later interviews he was talking about how Chris may have or tried to kibosh him trying to get back together with Stevie during The Dance Tour.
I don't think Lindsey and Christine had an affair during The Dance. (a short fling in the 80s, possible, but not this era) Also if anyone finds the article about this, please post it. I've looked for it. Nada

[Deeshere]

You girls? Whom are you speaking to?

In Stevie's upcoming autobiography Through The
Eyes Of A Dragon (Simon And Schuster), chapter
seven is titled "Making It The Hard Way". So I guess
we will find out all about the call girl year(s).

Sorry, I should have said, you ladies :nod:

[michelej1]

It's interesting to read this because while I've been going thru what I can find on The Dance Tour, I began to wonder what Christine thought of the very obvious interaction between Stevie and LB...you can see her watching them during many of the videos...do you remember how she meddled? I do remember towards the end of her time with FM someone asked her about S&L ever getting back together and she burst everyone's bubble with a not so nice seeming, never going to happen type answer. Wonder if she's the one who didn't approve in Everybody Finds Out?

If Lindsey had said she meddled at that time, it would have changed the entire trajectory of fan conversation for all these years. Altered the course of history -- or, at least, of gossip. First of all, that comment of his would have come up every single time Christine's departure from the band was mentioned. Secondly, it would validate everyone's suspicion that Stevie and Lindsey had an affair in 1997, which was interrupted by Kristen's pregnancy.

If Lindsey had made such a comment, it would not be forgotten. It would be oft-repeated and cited with the reverence of The Ten Commandments among fan discussions.

While I often think of Christine's forgiveness lyrics and wonder if they have to do with Stevie and Lindsey (i.e. she's not trapped in the middle of her own affair, but in the drama of theirs), I do not think Lindsey or anyone else saying that she interfered with his and Stevie's relationship would have slipped through the cracks of the fans' collective memory.

Except in song lyrics, he has never acknowledged that he and Stevie had anything to break up or meddle in, in 1997.

Michele

[Desiree]

Sorry, I should have said, you ladies :nod:

I'm cool with ladies, girls, women, whatever, I am all of them at one time or another. And, my girls will always be my girls!:shrug:

[Desiree]

You girls? Whom are you speaking to?

In Stevie's upcoming autobiography Through The
Eyes Of A Dragon (Simon And Schuster), chapter
seven is titled "Making It The Hard Way". So I guess
we will find out all about the call girl year(s).

You are joking, right? Gotta say, I for one don't think the call girl line is funny, not because it's Stevie but because it's just ugly...just saying. :distress:

[applebucked]

Honestly, I don't see Stevie being a call girl by any stretch of the imagination.

[iamnotafraid]

Sorry, I should have said, you ladies :nod:


Ladies?

As the song says...
I'm a U.S. Male, I was born in a little Alabama town
on a Sunday morn...

____________________________________________

Stevie - Call Girl

That might be a little bit of an exaggeration on my part.

[elle]

Ladies?

As the song says...
I'm a U.S. Male, I was born in a little Alabama town
on a Sunday morn...



lmao while reading your exchanges iamnotafraid. you humor is completely confusing all these new girls on the board :D

glad to see you popping back! :xoxo:

[applebucked]

Maybe I should read the entire exchange before commenting because I do love my off-color humor. :laugh:

[Desiree]

lmao while reading your exchanges iamnotafraid. you humor is completely confusing all these new girls on the board :D

glad to see you popping back! :xoxo:

Uh, I guess you could call me new, Elle, but I just don't see any humor in the call girl comments. If I'm missing something, ok...I'm just gonna bypass them tho. That's my prerogative and his to continue the line, but it's kind of like that coke up the butt thing. I can just see Stevie's face when asked:

Interviewer, "Were you a call girl at some point in your past?"

Stevie Nicks, "No, idiot, I'm a rock and roll singer, I just liked having sex and I did it for free!"

..:sorry:

[iamnotafraid]

but it's kind of like that coke up the butt thing. I can just see Stevie's face when asked:

Interviewer, "Were you a call girl at some point in your past?"

Stevie Nicks, "No, idiot, I'm a rock and roll singer, I just liked having sex and I did it for free!"

..:sorry:


^ Desiree that's worse than anything I wrote!

I mean what's worse, being a whore or a slut?

And I am not saying Stevie was either.

You did make me laugh though.

[Deeshere]

Ladies?

As the song says...
I'm a U.S. Male, I was born in a little Alabama town
on a Sunday morn....

Well it looks like I owe you another apology.... Sorry I offend you SIR... I will not make the same mistake twice..

[iamnotafraid]

Well it looks like I owe you another apology.... Sorry I offend you SIR... I will not make the same mistake twice..

No, no apology needed.
It made me laugh.

[Desiree]

[QUOTE=iamnotafraid;1101726]^ Desiree that's worse than anything I wrote!

I mean what's worse, being a whore or a slut?

And I am not saying Stevie was either.

You did make me laugh though.[/]

The interview part was exaggerated, of course, I doubt she'd call an interviewer an idiot to his face, even tho I'd bet she's wanted too! But, in all seriousness, I try not to call people names or judge them for that matter. We're all human and we all do bad things we regret and most of us know it and don't need to be called out a for it. I certainly fit that bill. Sorry, not preaching either...although it sounds like it! :laugh:

[Deeshere]

No, no apology needed.
It made me laugh.

Glad you have a good since of humor. It comes in very handy when your posting on this board. :nod::laugh:

[applebucked]

:lol: I could imagine Stevie saying that!

Yes, a good sense of humor always helps.