Kristen Buckingham joins Elle Decor “A-Listers”

[elle]

http://editoratlarge.com/articles/elle-d%C3%A9cor-unveils-the-2013-%E2%80%9Ca-listers%E2%80%9D-at-nyc-lunch--2

ELLE DÉCOR unveils the 2013 “A-Listers” at NYC lunch

Posted on Friday, June 07, 2013.

On Tuesday afternoon, top industry professionals came together for an intimate lunch and celebration at the Modern restaurant in New York City, to honor the 10 designers and firms most recently named to the ELLE DÉCOR A-List.

The A-List is the magazine’s fourth annual salute to the country’s top talents—designers who continue to excite, inspire and intrigue ELLE DÉCOR readers and editors.



From left: Michael Boodro, Robert Mishaan, Larry Laslo, Jamie Drake and Barbara Friedmann

“This is the first year that we have included some international designers,” said editor-in-chief of ELLE DÉCOR, Michael Boodro. “ELLE DÉCOR has always had an international focus, but this is the first year we have included some of the wonderful international designers we feature.”



From left: honorees Kristen Buckingham, Jessie Carrier and Mara Miller

This year’s A-List honorees included: Kristen Buckingham, Carrier and Company, Champeau & Wilde, Jean-Louis Deniot, Thomas Jayne, Brian J. McCarthy, Larry Laslo, Tom Scheerer, Studio Peregalli and Alan Wazenberg.

“We're very proud of the diversity of this year's list,” said Boodro. “It ranges from well-known designers who probably should have been on the list already—Thomas Jayne, Tom Scheerer, and Alan Wanzenberg, for example—to rising stars such Kristen Buckingham and Jesse Carrier and Mara Miller of Carrier and Company. And the range of styles in which they work is inspiring, from the laid-back California chic of Kristen Buckingham to the high Parisian glamour of Jean-Louis Deniot.”

These designers join the ranks of other A-Listers from previous years including Jamie Drake, Thom Filicia, Bunny Williams, Alex Papachristidis, Vicente Wolf, Kelly Wearstler, Alexa Hampton, Miles Redd and many more.

Here’s a bit more about each of the designers, as seen in the June issue of ELLE DÉCOR:



Buckingham's living room in Los Angeles. Photo Credit: Simon Upton, ELLE DÉCOR

Los Angeles–based Buckingham discovered her passion for design while working on a dream home for her family. Her Wallace Neff–inspired house led to decorating an actual Neff homestead for actress Reese Witherspoon, as well as to an eponymous shop along the La Cienega design corridor, where she showcases antiques and modern art, as well as her line of bespoke furniture. “Everything I gravitate toward is traditional at heart but has an edge to it,” said Buckingham. “I like things fresh and clean—nothing is worse than a home where no one could possibly be comfortable."



Den of a home designed by Carrier and Company in Connecticut. Photo Credit: William Waldron, ELLE DÉCOR

In 2010, ELLE DÉCOR named Carrier and Miller as designers to watch—but over the past three years, the husband-and-wife team has gone from emerging to established. Ever since a boost from Vogue editor Anna Wintour, an early high-profile client, the New York couple has been turning out a stunning string of interiors for clients in places from Connecticut to Florida, each with a distinctly different vibe. “Every project is shaped to fit the user—we don’t have a stamp or a look,” said Carrier. “What we maintain,” added Miller, “is a point of view that’s edited, light, and tailored.” This fall, that vision will extend to product design, with a collection of carpets for Studio Four NYC.



Champeau & Wilde-designed living room in Manhattan. Photo Credit: Courtesy of Champeau & Wilde, ELLE DÉCOR

The Franco-American husband-and-wife team of Laurent Champeau and Kelli Wilde has been creating sophisticated interiors since 2011. Fluent in spaces of all kinds, the Paris-based couple is as adept at designing a New York white-box penthouse as an ornate apartment on the Seine. “Every home you design is a collaboration,” said Champeau, “between your taste, the client’s taste, the location, and how the client lives.” While they don’t have a signature look, the phrase “understated chic” resonates for them, said Wilde. “When you walk into our rooms, you are not afraid to sit down,” she adds. Currently working on a loft, a pied-à-terre, and a house in Paris, they will open a U.S. office this year.



Paris living room designed by Deniot. Photo Credit: Miguel Flores-Viana, ELLE DÉCOR

With a gifted sense of scale and proportion, Deniot creates interiors with classic architectural details that have been cleaned up and sharpened for today. “I’ve always loved his- tory—every period,” said the Parisian designer. “But even when I use academic details, I come out with my own versions of them.” Frequently working in muted colors, Deniot adds drama with show stopping finishes and materials, and no shortage of sculptural and textural elements. His current projects include residences from New York to New Delhi, as well as furniture and lighting collections for Jean de Merry, George Smith, Bronze d’Art Français, Marc de Berny, and Pouenat.



Jayne's sitting room in New Orleans. Photo Credit: William Waldron, ELLE DÉCOR

“I’m deeply interested in history, but employ it in a contemporary way,” said Jayne, a go-to designer for grand interiors with an impressive sense of age. “I think of tradition in an active voice, not a passive voice—because it’s not a tradition if it’s dead.” After his training at the Winterthur Museum and brief stints at the Metropolitan Museum of Art and Historic Deerfield, Jayne brings a curator’s depth of knowledge about American decorative arts along with a top designer’s eye to each of his commissions. It’s an ideal mix for projects like the President’s House at Yale University, which Jayne is currently designing with selections from the school’s art gallery.



Library in McCarthy's New York apartment. Photo Credit: William Waldron, ELLE DÉCOR

The New York–based designer McCarthy draws inspiration from the culture and elegance of European living, but “distilled through an American thought process,” he said. That translates into eclectic spaces grounded by an understanding of history, but realized with a focus on functionality, comfort, and sumptuous materials. McCarthy, a former partner at Parish Hadley, frequently strikes just the right note in his clients’ homes by creating custom elements with far-flung artisans—from a Japanese textile designer to a Parisian atelier that normally specializes in appliqué and embroidery for haute couture. His first book, aptly titled Luminous Interiors, is due out this fall.



Laslo's Palm Beach living room. Photo Credit: Eric Piasecki, ELLE DÉCOR

“My work is classic, but with a surprising twist,” said designer Laslo. “There’s that edge that tells you it’s 2013, not 1998.” He creates crisp interiors that pull freely from different periods, and the unexpected elements often come from striking contemporary artworks or bold combinations of colors—hardly a surprise given Laslo’s background. He worked as a painter and fashion illustrator before landing his first big interior design commission: overhauling Bergdorf Goodman in the 1980s. Since then, in addition to homes for private clients across the country, he has designed furniture, fabrics, and other products for companies such as Robert Allen and Guy Chaddock & Co.



Guest room in Scheerer's Paris home. Photo Credit: Simon Upton, ELLE DÉCOR

Although this native New Yorker has a degree in architecture, Scheerer prefers the term “decorator.” “We’ve lost confidence in the power of decorating,” he said, “which is the part of design I like best.” He’s calling his upcoming book Tom Scheerer Decorates, an homage to inspiration Billy Baldwin. “I like to think of my rooms as cheerful,” he said. They also tend to be tailored, textured, and tonal rather than heavily embellished, although his “relaxed modernism” can also embrace the occasional antique or saucy textile. New projects include a house in Antigua, a resort in Panama, and a home on Harbour Island in the Bahamas.



Sitting room of a London house designed by Studio Peregalli. Photo Credit: Roger Davies ELLE DÉCOR

The Milan-based duo of Roberto Peregalli and Laura Sartori Rimini specializes in baronial rooms that are steeped in history without being tied to any period. Working with salvaged fragments and highly skilled artisans, they fashion dramatic spaces “that do not live in the past but interpret it,” said Peregalli. “We match the past with something that lives now,” continues Rimini, “but gives the impression of having always been there.” The firm’s American projects include a Manhattan apartment for style arbiter Hamish Bowles— who wrote a foreword for their monograph, The Invention of the Past—and a Gramercy Park townhouse for artists Rachel Feinstein and John Currin.



Wazenberg's living room on Fire Island, New York. Photo Credit: Peter Estersohn, ELLE DÉCOR

“I don’t think I have a signature look,” said Illinois native and Harvard-trained architect Wanzenberg. “It’s more like a sensibility,” he added, describing his work as confident, spontaneous, and edited. It’s also elegant, understated, and serene. Common to his clients, he says, is “a high commitment to art and exceptional furniture.” His work is modern, but far from cold or sterile. Currently on his calendar is the renovation of an apartment in Manhattan’s famed Ansonia building and the conversion of the Toy Center building into condos. He’s also designing a line of fixtures for Remains Lighting and working on his first book.

Photos from lunch courtesy of Angela Pham, BFA for ELLE DÉCOR



thanks to Amlyn for the find :)

[Amlyn]

Looks like we got some pics from the event here.

http://bfanyc.com/people/kristen-buckingham

[bombaysaffires]

I find it fascinating that the celeb (or one of the celebs) Kristen decorated for was Reese Witherspoon. Reese of course has a connection to Stevie, being the person Stevie wants to play her "in the movie about us" as she said to Mick in her documentary. And Reese was in the studio hanging out with Stevie and Dave Stewart...

Is there never anything Stevie or LB does that doesn't circle back to entangle the other??

[Nico]

Great for Kristen! I was just wondering...they seem to show that picture of the living room with the picture collage wall a lot when showcasing Kristen's accomplishments. I know she has done more. She has the two homes that were in Elle Decor, then the Reese Witherspoon home, and I believe one other room was featured in a magazine or news article a few years back.

What is everyone's opinions of her work?

Do you have a preference: minimalistic verses...um non-minimialistic?

What do you think of that living room with the "picture frame collage" wall?

How about her separate pieces? Anything stand out?

I'm curious because- outside of Elle Decor I really haven't heard much about her as an interior designer.

Has anyone been in her store?

[nicole21290]

Anything stand out? Um, yes. My absolute favourite of her pieces is the darling crescent moon lamp.

For no particular reason... :D

(and i hate that wall with the pictures frames, lol)

[Nico]

Anything stand out? Um, yes. My absolute favourite of her pieces is the darling crescent moon lamp.

For no particular reason... :D

(and i hate that wall with the pictures frames, lol)

Yeah that crescent moon lamp...I'm sorry but it bothers me a tad. Why would it have to be specifically a crescent moon lamp? I'm not saying it wasn't a completely original idea- but it does seem dubious that it would be the precise style of moon someone else wears religiously around her neck. Maybe it was a sweet gesture to her?

[Nico]

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Bvdi801_yzg/UgB0gs96nhI/AAAAAAAAWyU/_3LtMV-fX_k/w572-h854-no/Screen+Shot+2013-08-05+at+11.55.31+PM.png

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-JN6U-clHjyE/UgB0iNa8K9I/AAAAAAAAWys/BHLMyB9qdc0/w865-h693-no/Screen+Shot+2013-08-05+at+11.55.40+PM.png


https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-QQ_f6wKjlNY/UgB0k7bFIqI/AAAAAAAAWzE/lp3aJkPBlRc/w849-h854-no/Screen+Shot+2013-08-05+at+11.56.00+PM.png

[Amlyn]

I think she should send the lace back to Stevie. Just seems so random on that kind of shirt.

[Desiree]

A couple of my gf's, who really should know, think that Kristen has had cosmetic work done, cheekbone implants? Or something? I'm on the fence....anyone?

[michelej1]

“I like things fresh and clean—nothing is worse than a home where no one could possibly be comfortable."



But I think some of her rooms do look like places where no one could possibly be comfortable.

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn2/michelej1/kristen-buckingham-interior-design-1_zps4753d2ca.jpg (http://s300.photobucket.com/user/michelej1/media/kristen-buckingham-interior-design-1_zps4753d2ca.jpg.html)

Even just visually, this room is exhausting.

And as for the picture frames, that's not the only place where she's done them. She does them in the bedroom too and even in the anteroom you can see through the doors in that photo above, there are picture frames all over the place.

Michele

[CADreaming]

I think she should send the lace back to Stevie. Just seems so random on that kind of shirt.

:laugh::laugh:

It does look like the remnants from Stevie's "wedding" dress... :D

[elle]

What is everyone's opinions of her work?
ehm, no comment.
Do you have a preference: minimalistic verses...um non-minimialistic?

What do you think of that living room with the "picture frame collage" wall?

yes i have a strong preference for minimalistic when it comes to design and home decorating. i like a lot of mid-century modern, mixed with warm natural materials (wood, cork, stone). i like clean lines. therefore my "no comment" above. there's nothing minimalistic about KB's decorating style. it's over-cluttered, too busy, and i don't like the style of the furniture pieces she uses. even if there would be some pretty pieces of furniture and art you wouldn't be able to notice them among all the clutter. if some of those paintings are originals, i'm sure those painters didn't dream that their art would be watered down and lost in the sea of 20 other paintings that don't go with it. :shrug:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Bvdi801_yzg/UgB0gs96nhI/AAAAAAAAWyU/_3LtMV-fX_k/w572-h854-no/Screen+Shot+2013-08-05+at+11.55.31+PM.png

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-QQ_f6wKjlNY/UgB0k7bFIqI/AAAAAAAAWzE/lp3aJkPBlRc/w849-h854-no/Screen+Shot+2013-08-05+at+11.56.00+PM.png

she's a very beautiful and natural looking girl. cheekbones and blue eyes - those kids had some nice features to inherit from both of their parents! extremely good looking people. :nod:

[michelej1]

I also think that furniture in a room should have something in common. Same wood, same maker, same era, something. She likes to mix and match. There are some pictures of that same room above taken from a different angle and you look at the side chairs and you get a completely different feeling than when you look at it from the sofa and picture frame view.

I think it's great for different rooms in the house to have different auras, depending on their function, but I don't think the SAME room in the house should. The problem with mixing the formal and informal together in the same room is that when you put a bunch of people together in it, it's hard for them to share the same activity. I'll recline here and you, ah, practice your posture over there.

She'll have a sitting room and I'll think, "Oh, that's nice and comfy. I just want to go there with a good book and read on a rainy day." So, there's a loveseat with soft cushions and fabric that draws you in. Then, you look in the corner and she's got some hard, upright Victorian chair there, where someone should sit, shoulders straight and chin up, when they're taking elocution lessons, right next to the comfy loveseat. I just think, "what's up?" Rather schizophrenic.

Michele

[bombaysaffires]

I also think that furniture in a room should have something in common. Same wood, same maker, same era, something. She likes to mix and match. There are some pictures of that same room above taken from a different angle and you look at the side chairs and you get a completely different feeling than when you look at it from the sofa and picture frame view.

I think it's great for different rooms in the house to have different auras, depending on their function, but I don't think the SAME room in the house should. The problem with mixing the formal and informal together in the same room is that when you put a bunch of people together in it, it's hard for them to share the same activity. I'll recline here and you, ah, practice your posture over there.

She'll have a sitting room and I'll think, "Oh, that's nice and comfy. I just want to go there with a good book and read on a rainy day." So, there's a loveseat with soft cushions and fabric that draws you in. Then, you look in the corner and she's got some hard, upright Victorian chair there, where someone should sit, shoulders straight and chin up, when they're taking elocution lessons, right next to the comfy loveseat. I just think, "what's up?" Rather schizophrenic.

Michele

also, that living room has yet ANOTHER sofa and coffee table that have NOTHING whatsoever to do with the ones shown-- DIRECTLY across from the ones shown... sort of like mirror-image yet totally unmatched. I especially hate the two coffee tables together... just weird, like someone was randomly storing furniture in the room.

[Nico]

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn2/michelej1/kristen-buckingham-interior-design-1_zps4753d2ca.jpg (http://s300.photobucket.com/user/michelej1/media/kristen-buckingham-interior-design-1_zps4753d2ca.jpg.html)


It's too cluttered for me. My ideal room needs as little as possible so that certain things can make a statement. Like that piano would probably be the center of my room, and maybe 3-5 framed pictures. I don't want to make it look like a museum and, like, feel worried if there was a black-out that I would knock over some precious porcelain item or hurt myself trying to move around in there.

Also, I've always loved the "less is more" approach. I just like the idea of walking into a room and being able to see the light from outside shine on to one or two things, not an assortment of things. I love color but it does not need to look like a Pollack painting of furniture, home accessories, paintings, etc. just everywhere. I like space. I like room. I like to feel like my house is about me and not my things.

[michelej1]

It's too cluttered for me. My ideal room needs as little as possible so that certain things can make a statement. Like that piano would probably be the center of my room,

That piano is shoe-horned into the room. It looks like it's trying desperately not to be noticed, hunching its shoulders, huddling up: "Don't mind me. I'm just a baby grand. Please go on about your business."

One good thing about this decorating style is if you have a pink elephant that you want to ignore, Kristen could camoflage it for you.

Michele

[fairydust75]

A couple of my gf's, who really should know, think that Kristen has had cosmetic work done, cheekbone implants? Or something? I'm on the fence....anyone?

You read my mind. Something is definitely different. Maybe she's just maturing ....:shrug:

[Desiree]

Yeah, but isn't she just 34? I felt like I looked better than ever in my 30's! Her cheekbones do look done tho the more I look...:shrug:

[fairydust75]

Yeah, but isn't she just 34? I felt like I looked better than ever in my 30's! Her cheekbones do look done tho the more I look...:shrug:

I believe shes s bit older then that. In her 40's.

[elle]

Yeah, but isn't she just 34? I felt like I looked better than ever in my 30's! Her cheekbones do look done tho the more I look...:shrug:

Will is 15. do you think Kristen's been with LB since she was 18?

she's somewhere around 43 or 44.

whether she had work done or not i'm not sure, but she is one beautiful lady, either way.

[CADreaming]

According to press she is 43.

[Desiree]

Will is 15. do you think Kristen's been with LB since she was 18?

she's somewhere around 43 or 44.

whether she had work done or not i'm not sure, but she is one beautiful lady, either way.

:sorry:Hey, Elle. That was a careless, still very young for surgery IMHO and yes she is very striking! Was just actually repeating questions my friends and I were talking about, like I said, I'm still on the fence.:shrug:

[Desiree]

One of the girls said her check bones were done in her 30's, Kristen's that is.

[michelej1]

Norway, Sweden . . . I don't really know what Kristen's background is, but I think her daughters have inherited enough of her Northern Europe look to make me conclude that it's not all the result of plastic surgery.

I think she must have had at least some cheekbones to begin with.

Michele

[Lindsfan]

Will is 15. do you think Kristen's been with LB since she was 18?

she's somewhere around 43 or 44.

whether she had work done or not i'm not sure, but she is one beautiful lady, either way.

Norway, Sweden . . . I don't really know what Kristen's background is, but I think her daughters have inherited enough of her Northern Europe look to make me conclude that it's not all the result of plastic surgery.

I think she must have had at least some cheekbones to begin with.

Michele

I don't think she's changed that much, looks wise, over the years, and not because of surgery, but because she has good genes, eats well, stays fit, etc.

Like Lindsey, she's beautiful, and ages well. Newsflash: Not everyone who looks good in their 40's, 50's and 60's has had surgery.

[bombaysaffires]

I don't think she's changed that much, looks wise, over the years, and not because of surgery, but because she has good genes, eats well, stays fit, etc.

Like Lindsey, she's beautiful, and ages well. Newsflash: Not everyone who looks good in their 40's, 50's and 60's has had surgery.

no one stays looking exactly the same naturally; time adds some wear and tear, wrinkles, grey hair, etc.
She clearly works on her appearance... exercise, diet, and I'm sure, living in LA, she has her face worked on. At the very least that means regular skin care, facials, peels, professional make up, and I suspect also includes small enhancements like fillers (you can't be in your 40s and fair skinned and living in a sunny climate and not have a few wrinkles around the eyes and the dreaded 'parenthesis' lines around your mouth etc). I certainly don't hold any of that against her at all. I'd bet at least some juvederm and botox.

The cheeks somehow do look a bit knobby though... sort of like Madonna's after her cheek implants. Sort of like boobs, most people who get cheek implants go too big. I'd suspect she's had them, but haven't seen too many pics of her from the more than decade ago when she and LB first got together. Maybe she did have good cheekbones and her cheeks below the bone have just gotten a bit more hollowed out. But the "knobbiness" of them.. so big and rounded when the rest of her face isn't so fleshy, makes me wonder. :shrug:

[CADreaming]

Not that I really care, but I do think she's had a nose job and probably some other minor things. I definitely do not think she's au naturel.

Also, just since the word has been passed around here a few times, I wouldn't describe her as beautiful. She's attractive, maybe even pretty, but not beautiful.

[TrueFaith77]

She's not beautiful.

She looks like she had work done to me also, though I can't tell what.

And I really like the room. :)

[louielouie2000]

She's not beautiful.

She looks like she had work done to me also, though I can't tell what.

And I really like the room. :)

Cheek implants. Possible dermal fillers in her face as well. I think she is stunning, though.

Regarding her decorating style, I love her usage of vintage/retro objects, patterns, & colors. Sometimes she pulls it all together gorgeously; other times it looks cluttered and/or things clash monumentally.

For instance, I think this is an example of her at her best. Each painting in this collection is beautiful, and the number of them together really makes an impact. The unusual placement of them is really cool.

http://www.desiretoinspire.net/storage/living-rooms/kristenbuckingham18.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1262744790398

Her kitchen is beautiful... the floor is so unique, the contrasting cabinet & island colors really pop, the lights are exquisite, and the whole space looks very livable (having the stove so far off to one side is kinda weird, though).

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_lwz5d9gvaZ4/TL9b4Hg84bI/AAAAAAAAAf4/2h909U3hNdo/s400/Kitchen+1+Kristen+Buckingham.jpg

http://www.desiretoinspire.net/storage/kitchens/kristenbuckingham5.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1262744878267

This room is Kristin at her worst, though. So much clutter; so many clashing objects, styles, colors, patterns, etc.

http://www.desiretoinspire.net/storage/living-rooms/kristenbuckingham16.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1262745035549

[michelej1]

What was really great about that one picture of the crazy frame room was the shot where she had the flower arrangement on the table. The way those flowers pulled out the color in the sofa was amazing. Even though I think that sofa is super ugly, the way it was staged in back of that flower arrangement was stunning. When you can add tiny adornment like that, you don't need to do too much more.

But I'm crazy for flowers anyway. If I was independently wealthy, a lot of my money would go to flower arrangements.

As for her looks, I think her features are close to what is generally considered classic, symmetrical beauty.

I'm ok with her being called beautiful. I don't think it's as much of an exaggeration as it is in most cases. I don't particularly think she's beautiful, but I can only think of 3 celebrities I've ever thought were beautiful anyway. Lindsey, Gillian Anderson and Kristina Malandro. Other than that . . . meh. And even with Gillian, I'm aware that she's not beautiful, because when I saw her before Scully I didn't think she was. Scully just made me fall in love with her and then, I guess, I thought she was beautiful.

I think that Kristin is much more attractive than either the gal or the dame, but I'm not about to trade either of those 2 in for Kristin any time soon.

Michele

[Desiree]

Not that I really care, but I do think she's had a nose job and probably some other minor things. I definitely do not think she's au naturel.

Also, just since the word has been passed around here a few times, I wouldn't describe her as beautiful. She's attractive, maybe even pretty, but not beautiful.

What you said...exactly!:]

[HelloMonster]

I don't find her much of anything. Nice hair, nice skin, nice body... But her face is jarring. It's skeletal, really. Such deep deep set eyes in massive sockets, and huge cheekbones. I'm sure she has a beautiful personality to keep Lindsey happy, though! It's what's most important, anyways. :o

[CADreaming]

I don't find her much of anything. Nice hair, nice skin, nice body... But her face is jarring. It's skeletal, really. Such deep deep set eyes in massive sockets, and huge cheekbones.

Yes, you're right. And her eye sockets have been that way for a while. In case anyone wants to dispute it, you can tell in the NTL doc when she was in her 30's. just as a comparison, not about looks, but Stevie is in her 60's and that is just now becoming noticeable with her sockets, which is normal.

[michelej1]

I will say I don't think much of CAH's looks back in the day or any of his other girlfriends that I've seen. Kristen is the best looking of the bunch. Good job making that the one you knocked up, Linds.


Michele

[elle]

Kristen is the best looking of the bunch. Good job making that the one you knocked up, Linds.

lol Michele.

really, i'm confused with all the comments i'm reading... just wondering, with all the people here judging whether KB is beautiful, who IS physically beautiful to you? from what i've been reading seems your definition of beauty (and we are talking physical, none of us know the woman to be able to judge her personality) is much much narrower than mine.

KB has what i would call classical Scandinavian pretty look. i don't think i've ever seen a bad photo of her, and bunch of them were far from posed. i suspect she's one of those women that if you passed by her on the street you'd think she's stunning.

again, i don't seem to be nearly as judgmental look-wise as most of people commenting on KB's look here.

or is it just that she's not SN and therefore you feel you'd be somehow betraying your admiration for her if you think that LB's wife is beautiful? :shrug: ;)

[CADreaming]

Not me. I could care less who she is married to. I don't think she's beautiful and definitely don't agree with Michele that she was the best looking out of LB's "bunch". Really has nothing to do with Stevie for goodness sake. I guess it's just true what they say, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[Desiree]

I will say I don't think much of CAH's looks back in the day or any of his other girlfriends that I've seen. Kristen is the best looking of the bunch. Good job making that the one you knocked up, Linds.


Michele

Good one, Michele! But, it is strange sometimes the people others choose to be with and how we (others) see those choices, and how many times a good majority feel the same way. For example, think SN with Waddy...:sorry:

[michelej1]

Good one, Michele! But, it is strange sometimes the people others choose to be with and how we (others) see those choices, and how many times a good majority feel the same way. For example, think SN with Waddy...:sorry:

Waddy. I think he looks bad, but I don't know about his personality. I've never seen him say anything objectionable and don't know anything bad about him except the child pornography arrest. In Stevie's place, with all of their years together, if he is very supportive and they have this bond . . . I could definitely see them coming together.

Joe Walsh just seems like an obnoxious person, looks aside.

Mick ... I don't think he's attractive, but his personality is kind of distancing too; it's not just the way he looks. Just in that interview where he was saying he was wearing his brown underpants. Ugh.

Michele

[Desiree]

Not me. I could care less who she is married to. I don't think she's beautiful and definitely don't agree with Michele that she was the best looking out of LB's "bunch". Really has nothing to do with Stevie for goodness sake. I guess it's just true what they say, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Nor me...both SN and LB have kind of different than traditional, i.e., hugely famous, wealthy, etc. but they don't necessarily go for the 'great beauty, very exotic type many of their ilk have traditionally gone for.

Btw, just to be clear, I don't care if you are black, white, male, female, hetero, homo, fat or skinny, whatever...if you are nice and respectful to me I will be nice and respectful to you...period.:cool:

[CADreaming]

Cannot see Stevie with Waddy for some reason I just think that's a line that wouldn't be crossed.

[Desiree]

Mick ... I don't think he's attractive, but his personality is kind of distancing too; it's not just the way he looks. Just in that interview where he was saying he was wearing his brown underpants. Ugh. Michele

I feel bad for that remark about Waddy because I believe he and SN have a very long and deep affiliation and friendship. I believe he must support her and vis versa. He can also play the hell out of a guitar...I've heard him nail LB's parts more than a few times! I was trying to make a point...:shrug:

:laugh:You crack me up....couldn't agree more. He is totally objectionable for the most part, lol!

[HelloMonster]

really, i'm confused with all the comments i'm reading... just wondering, with all the people here judging whether KB is beautiful, who IS physically beautiful to you?

I personally think Scarlett Johansson is gorgeous. Beautiful skin and hair, sexy blue eyes, eyebrows nicely shaped and not over-plucked, high cheekbones, and full lips on a heart shaped face. Her bottom jaw is not as wide, or wider than her cheekbones unlike KB. (Just an honest observation!) I know I find others beautiful, but I can't think of any, naturally.

Plus, her father is from Copenhagen. Scandinavian perfection! :laugh:

[michelej1]

I feel bad for that remark about Waddy because I believe he and SN have a very long and deep affiliation and friendship. I believe he must support her and vis versa. He can also play the hell out of a guitar...I've heard him nail LB's parts more than a few times! I was trying to make a point...:shrug:



Well, I think the "majority" opinion about Waddy vs. Kristen's looks would be quite different, if there was a public opinion poll.

For the most part, if we're talking about the way men Stevie dated in the seventies or eighties looked, it's very hard for me to tell. I see a picture of Lindsey, Ken, Keith, Curry and a lot of those guys all together with all of that hair and the beards and the mustaches and none of them look any better or worse than the other, as far as I can tell.

To me, Don Henley and Joe are not good looking, but I'm not thinking that Lindsey is looking that good on the BN cover either.

As for the rock star "ilk" I think those models that the male rock stars like to date look like horses. I was looking at a slide show of Mick Jagger's loves and "Woof, woof."

Michele

[elle]

Nor me...both SN and LB have kind of different than traditional, i.e., hugely famous, wealthy, etc. but they don't necessarily go for the 'great beauty, very exotic type many of their ilk have traditionally gone for.
i don't know. to me, KB has typical trophy wife look about her.

either way, imagine if the woman he married was NOT pretty?! remember how there were articles about people throwing rude remarks to Carolyn Kennedy on the street, that she's not pretty enough to be John Kennedy Jr.'s wife? and reading what people have no qualms saying about KB in all kinds of social media mostly just based on who she is married to... idk. although i may be very very wrong - looking at John and Yoko or Paul and Linda, for example - neither of them being a classical trophy wife. but John and Paul's relationship is actually more equivalent to Lindsey and Stevie i guess, so maybe that's not a good comparison - since people blamed and were very pissed at Yoko for taking John away from Paul and the Beatles.

[elle]

Joe Walsh just seems like an obnoxious person, looks aside.

you know, i watched that Eagles movie recently and current post-alcoholic Joe Walsh comes across as pretty cool actually. Glenn Frey however - speaking of obnoxious!

i don't know whether that's true, but someone told me that during the Eagles tour, the rest of them told Joe Walsh he has to reign in his stage antics since they look boring in comparison. :laugh:

[michelej1]

i don't know. to me, KB has typical trophy wife look about her.

I agree.

What you said about the Carolyn Kennedy comments is strange to me, because I also considered her a classic beauty. I think JFK, Jr. was gorgeous, but I think that she was a good match for him physically.

Before I logged back on I was actually thinking about the Beatles' wives. I'm sure their fans denigrated ALL of them, except for Barbara Bach. But I don't think Kristen is in Linda McCartney's league by any stretch of the imagination. Don't hate me Linda fans. I actually liked Wings. And I'm just here trying to avoid people who are talking about Breaking Bad when I can't be spoiled, so...

You know I do think about it. Like Jimmy Fallon just had his baby via surrogate and his wife is 46 years old and not what I would have expected. It made me feel good actually to see her.

Beauty is definitely in the eye of the biased. I don't think people are attractive or not attractive if they come in and intervene in something I like, but I definitely do feel they are interloping and I resent it, even if my thoughts are irrational.

For instance, when I watched AHI I wanted Sheryl to get her paws off of Lindsey. I kept saying, "Why does she keep touching him? What is her deal??" On the other hand, when Waddy and Lindsey walked off with their arms around each other, I was thrilled and rewound that moment many times. But don't think I rewind Waddy and Stevie's public displays of affection, because I do NOT.

Michele

[bombaysaffires]

Classic beauty? Catherine Deneuve in her prime. A woman who would be considered beautiful in any period in history.

As for Kristen being the only one LB knocked up, I'm not so sure. Certainly she's the only one who actually had children by him. Carol claims to have gotten knocked up by him, and we don't know about Stevie....

[michelej1]

As for Kristen being the only one LB knocked up, I'm not so sure. Certainly she's the only one who actually had children by him. Carol claims to have gotten knocked up by him, and we don't know about Stevie....

Yes, I was concerned with actual children. I don't care about pregnancies or alleged pregnancies.

Make her up and I think Kristen looks just as good as Deneuve or any of those actresses. Michele

[bombaysaffires]

Yes, I was concerned with actual children. I don't care about pregnancies or alleged pregnancies.

Ahhh. I was thrown by the term "knocked up".

[michelej1]

Ahhh. I was thrown by the term "knocked up".

My point was I was saying he did a good job waiting to procreate with her, due to her looks. Certainly the term "knocked up" means pregnancy, but I was trying to be glib, not technical.

Michele

[Desiree]

Cannot see Stevie with Waddy for some reason I just think that's a line that wouldn't be crossed.

I could swear I read somewhere that they had been together...?

[michelej1]

I could swear I read somewhere that they had been together...?

Well, I'd guess they probably have. But there's no basis. I think the only reason that fans believe that is because Stevie said "If Anyone Falls" is about Waddy. But that doesn't mean it was about him romantically. She could have said if anyone falls in love, it will be one of us, but just meaning her OR Waddy could fall in love with someone else. Not each other:laugh: .

Michele

[Desiree]

No basis? and you know THAT how? Actually, I remember reading it and being stunned because (i'm obviously not a nice person) I find Waddy to be physically unattractive! It has nothing to do with If Anyone Falls, AND kiddie porn charges are serious to me!

[michelej1]

No basis? and you know THAT how? Actually, I remember reading it and being stunned because (i'm obviously not a nice person) I find Waddy to be physically unattractive! It has nothing to do with If Anyone Falls, AND kiddie porn charges are serious to me!

I know that HOW?? What do you mean? I don't have to have a "how" for knowing there's no basis for me thinking that Waddy and Stevie are together. I know what I've read and relied on and what I haven't. If you think they have, because you read it somewhere, then great. I haven't read it anywhere, from any credible source.

I think that child pornography charges are very serious, but I don't know the details of the arrest. He and his wife were both charged and I don't know what the evidence was against him. People who know him, like Brett, say that it was all a terrible misunderstanding. If it's true he was doing that, then I don't even think he should be in Stevie's band anymore. But I trust he gave them an explanation that they actually believed, so I go from the premise that he's not a child pornographer.

Michele

[kak125]

its strange to me but when i look at pictures of Kristin I see like no life in her eyes at all like she has no personality or something. its hard to explain but she just doesnt seem like she is ever very interested or happy when taking pictures and she isnt very expressive at all. she could just be uncomfortable taking pictures is all but i just think that if i had a conversation with her that it would be boring. like some people i know are just so bland that i cant really hang out with them. they put me to sleep -ha!!

[CADreaming]

its strange to me but when i look at pictures of Kristin I see like no life in her eyes at all like she has no personality or something. its hard to explain but she just doesnt seem like she is ever very interested or happy when taking pictures and she isnt very expressive at all. she could just be uncomfortable taking pictures is all but i just think that if i had a conversation with her that it would be boring. like some people i know are just so bland that i cant really hang out with them. they put me to sleep -ha!!

Oh, I get what you're saying. Maybe it's the botox or whatever, but it's a little odd. I mean, most actresses start out as models.

[Nico]

I agree.

What you said about the Carolyn Kennedy comments is strange to me, because I also considered her a classic beauty. I think JFK, Jr. was gorgeous, but I think that she was a good match for him physically.

Before I logged back on I was actually thinking about the Beatles' wives. I'm sure their fans denigrated ALL of them, except for Barbara Bach. But I don't think Kristen is in Linda McCartney's league by any stretch of the imagination.

Michele

I also loved, LOVED, Carolyn Kennedy. I think elle was probably spot-on about people treating her terribly, but Carolyn was a vivacious and beautiful woman. She had impeccable, breathtaking style and a classic allure. In my opinion, Kristen is more conventionally pretty than Carolyn in the face, but Carolyn had something graceful and timeless about her looks that has stood the test of time. As someone who has studied fashion extensively, she is one of my all-time favorites. And she was also an incredibly sweet woman with a very rich personality. I'm a fan of CK.

I don't know what you're saying here about Linda, Michele. Are you saying Kristen isn't in the same league in terms of the hate thrown at Linda McCartney, or she's nowhere near her in some other way?

Linda was a special case. She was definitely not a rock star arm-candy type and she never wanted to be. She was such a trailblazer and so uniquely herself despite all the negativity that she has become an inspiration to a ton of people. Linda was so many things more than Mrs. McCartney and she had a fiery way about her that helped balance Paul, who imo has never been the same without her or John. She was incredible. I always thought she was beautiful- in a much more natural way than some of the women then who caked on loads of makeup and were basically unrecognizable without. She never wore makeup (and she also wore knee socks with muumuus and had a mullet). She was really her own person and a strong, strong, amazing woman. Stella reminds me a lot of her. I'd say hands-down LM is my fave Beatles wife. :nod:

As far as Kristen's looks are concerned, I don't even bother debate it. She is beautiful and has lovely skin and lovely eyes. I don't think of her often, but the most positive thing I will say for Kristen- and the thing that matters most to me as a fan of her husband- is that she has really provided LB with balance, support, and a gorgeous family. He has been absolutely prolific for a while and I will give her credit for some of that. There is a desire for him to go out there and share his music, and her encouragement is probably one of the most pivotal things spearing that along. So for that I give her a great deal of respect. Even if her designs aren't my thing, she can do whatever she wants and I still will respect this VERY huge part about her.

[lbfan]

. . . the most positive thing I will say for Kristen- and the thing that matters most to me as a fan of her husband- is that she has really provided LB with balance, support, and a gorgeous family. He has been absolutely prolific for a while and I will give her credit for some of that. There is a desire for him to go out there and share his music, and her encouragement is probably one of the most pivotal things spearing that along. So for that I give her a great deal of respect. Even if her designs aren't my thing, she can do whatever she wants and I still will respect this VERY huge part about her.

I absolutely agree with this! The post-OOTC era (1993 to 1997) was tough on his fans that loved that album/CD. The aptly described prolific output beginning with Under The Skin CD has to be attributed, in some part, to his wife and children.

[CADreaming]

I absolutely agree with this! The post-OOTC era (1993 to 1997) was tough on his fans that loved that album/CD. The aptly described prolific output beginning with Under The Skin CD has to be attributed, in some part, to his wife and children.

I don't disagree that having a family has inspired Lindsey, but in reference to this period of time, he had most of GOS completed when he met Kristen. And, it was almost 10 years afterwards before UTS was released. I guess inspiration is one thing but getting stuff released is something else all together.

[elle]

I don't disagree that having a family has inspired Lindsey, but in reference to this period of time, he had most of GOS completed when he met Kristen. And, it was almost 10 years afterwards before UTS was released. I guess inspiration is one thing but getting stuff released is something else all together.

family inspired him, and finally being done with the big record company set him free to just keep releasing stuff as he's putting it together.

GOS1 could have been out anytime between 1997 and 2001, and it would have been such a gem of a record. i may be wrong but until proven otherwise i'm sticking with the opinion that WBs or someone there screwed Lindsey over royaly over GOS1 - and i give him a lot of credit for taking all that in stride. but he stayed with WB way too long after that, i guess out of inertia, or fear how does it work out there when you are not a part of the large company. glad he finally saw the light in 2011 and has been releasing stuff like crazy since then. :nod:

[michelej1]

I don't know what you're saying here about Linda, Michele. Are you saying Kristen isn't in the same league in terms of the hate thrown at Linda McCartney, or she's nowhere near her in some other way?


I was talking about the comments regarding McCartney's looks.

As far as Carolyn Bessette goes, I think her features were more conventional and appealing than Jackie's but that she and Jackie certainly shared a sense of style and taste. Caroline doesn't have that herself, but with the poetry, pictures and audio tapes she's released, she's done great things since her mother died to share more of Jackie with the public and I really think I have such a greater idea of Jackie's whole personality in all of its facets now than I did while she lived. Too bad I'll never know how Carolyn's story would have played out.

Michele

[CADreaming]

^I think he mentioned the WB shakeup during that made a casualty of GOS. I don't think we really know nor do I believe it is his nature to take it in stride, but there are pros & cons to having the independent releases. I like the speed of availability for sure. I think I miss some of the production values though, or final mixing or wherever it is that they cut corners.

[elle]

^I think he mentioned the WB shakeup during that made a casualty of GOS. I don't think we really know nor do I believe it is his nature to take it in stride,

we don't know, and same as you, i would have never expected him to. but he seemed to have remained friends and talks nicely about some of the main figures at WB at the time.

[michelej1]

we don't know, and same as you, i would have never expected him to. but he seemed to have remained friends and talks nicely about some of the main figures at WB at the time.

He seems to feel that the guy who betrayed him didn't really have a choice and that he wanted to continue supporting the album but just couldn't. So, Lindsey seems to have felt let down, but also understood the climate at WB left no other choice. So, yes I think he took it in stride because he realized that the person you have the most contact with isn't the ultimate decision maker. It would be like attacking the cashier because you didn't like how the store was stocked.

Michele

[vivfox]

It would be like attacking the cashier because you didn't like how the store was stocked.

We should be glad then that Lindsey is not a hip hop artist. He might have grabbed a gun and killed the guy.

[CADreaming]

He seems to feel that the guy who betrayed him didn't really have a choice and that he wanted to continue supporting the album but just couldn't. So, Lindsey seems to have felt let down, but also understood the climate at WB left no other choice. So, yes I think he took it in stride because he realized that the person you have the most contact with isn't the ultimate decision maker. It would be like attacking the cashier because you didn't like how the store was stocked.

Michele

I don't think Tom was the guy he would have been upset with. I can't remember the other name.

[michelej1]

I don't think Tom was the guy he would have been upset with. I can't remember the other name.

The people he would have been upset with weren't even there when he received initial support for GOS. From what he's said they came in later and he didn't have any relationship with them. Plus, he had no power anyway. He had no leverage. He might have thought he would get some after The Dance, but that never happened.

Michele

[bombaysaffires]

I don't think Tom was the guy he would have been upset with. I can't remember the other name.

Rob Cavallo?

[michelej1]

Rob Cavallo?

I think it was mostly Tom. Before he came in they didn't want Lindsey's solo album anyway. Lindsey said he felt it was a "lame duck" situation and he thought he'd just wait until someone else was in charge. Meanwhile, he worked with FM. Tom Whalley came in as head and he said he liked the album and I think that made Lindsey very hopeful. But did Tom really like it or was he just making nice with Lindsey because he wanted more FM? Hard to say.

When Lindsey actually had an album, Whalley was indifferent to it and said that WB was not going to promote it. So, at that point, I think is when Lindsey felt he'd been stabbed in the back, because Tom did sort of a flip flop. But I think he also felt that WB was in such a state of flux (and the record business as a whole was) that he didn't hold Whalley personally responsible, even though he seems to be the one that Lindsey was having all the conversations with. I think he thought that Whalley was just trying to hang on to his job -- which he lost soon enough anyway.

At one point, it was like Lindsey was almost blaming himself, saying that maybe WB wasn't promoting his album because he'd called it "boutique," as if describing it in a different way to them would have made them roll out the PR department full blast. It wouldn't have.

Michele

[elle]

I think it was mostly Tom. Before he came in they didn't want Lindsey's solo album anyway. Lindsey said he felt it was a "lame duck" situation and he thought he'd just wait until someone else was in charge. Meanwhile, he worked with FM. Tom Whalley came in as head and he said he liked the album and I think that made Lindsey very hopeful. But did Tom really like it or was he just making nice with Lindsey because he wanted more FM? Hard to say.

When Lindsey actually had an album, Whalley was indifferent to it and said that WB was not going to promote it. So, at that point, I think is when Lindsey felt he'd been stabbed in the back, because Tom did sort of a flip flop. But I think he also felt that WB was in such a state of flux (and the record business as a whole was) that he didn't hold Whalley personally responsible, even though he seems to be the one that Lindsey was having all the conversations with. I think he thought that Whalley was just trying to hang on to his job -- which he lost soon enough anyway.

At one point, it was like Lindsey was almost blaming himself, saying that maybe WB wasn't promoting his album because he'd called it "boutique," as if describing it in a different way to them would have made them roll out the PR department full blast. It wouldn't have.

Michele

interesting. from some things Cavallo said in one of the FM docs (BTM maybe, although not sure which one?), it sounded he was partially working with Lindsey on GOS some time around 1995-1996 (he did co-produce some of those songs with him)... he claimed he said to LB that he has been inactive for a number of years and that if he puts out another solo album after all this time it would make a splash... and that even bigger splash would be a FM reunion (i.e. the Dance), and so LB agreed to wait for FM reunion first... or something like that. seems that Cavallo was trying to transmit some message he received from higher ups to LB at the time. once the dance happened, it would have been a perfect time imo to put out GOS (like in 1998/99), but my speculation is that at the time someone held it back - again... till LB tried to give the updated version to WB again in 2001. i think in 2001 he may have worked with Whalley and that's the period you are referring to?

from various interviews, Lindsey seems to consider both Whalley and Cavallo friends and doesn't really blame either one for what happened. when he was talking about One Take, he described a record company executive that cannot go against the board and general business / stock market / whatever mentality and has limited power if he wants to survive in his position. Cavallo just became what? WB CEO or something equivalent? after Whalley was apparently pushed out. Lindsey also mentions his friend Cavallo who just became a head of WB and cannot do what should be right for the art, just what's right for the business, in one of the SWS era interviews, and says that he completely understands that. he makes it sound like he doesn't condone it and wouldn't do it himself, but completely understands it.

[CADreaming]

I think it was mostly Tom. Before he came in they didn't want Lindsey's solo album anyway. Lindsey said he felt it was a "lame duck" situation and he thought he'd just wait until someone else was in charge. Meanwhile, he worked with FM. Tom Whalley came in as head and he said he liked the album and I think that made Lindsey very hopeful. But did Tom really like it or was he just making nice with Lindsey because he wanted more FM? Hard to say.

When Lindsey actually had an album, Whalley was indifferent to it and said that WB was not going to promote it. So, at that point, I think is when Lindsey felt he'd been stabbed in the back, because Tom did sort of a flip flop. But I think he also felt that WB was in such a state of flux (and the record business as a whole was) that he didn't hold Whalley personally responsible, even though he seems to be the one that Lindsey was having all the conversations with. I think he thought that Whalley was just trying to hang on to his job -- which he lost soon enough anyway.

At one point, it was like Lindsey was almost blaming himself, saying that maybe WB wasn't promoting his album because he'd called it "boutique," as if describing it in a different way to them would have made them roll out the PR department full blast. It wouldn't have.

Michele

Yeah - I'm thinking about comments LukeA made about this way back in one of our discussions - maybe even in regards to Kristen. I don't have time to try and research right now. Ugh. But seems like there was more animosity about it from LB at the time. Which I don't blame him-- I think taking it in stride was a little after the fact though.

[elle]

Yeah - I'm thinking about comments LukeA made about this way back in one of our discussions - maybe even in regards to Kristen. I don't have time to try and research right now. Ugh. But seems like there was more animosity about it from LB at the time. Which I don't blame him-- I think taking it in stride was a little after the fact though.

yeah, i'd be probably still be pissed if i was him, although i guess at same point you just accept it as destiny. plus i don't know the real and whole story. but, i'm pissed now when i just think about not having GOS1 released and how all those songs were scattered around various albums. i'm pissed when i read currently ongoing SYW thread in Rumours forum and many people who are FM or SN fans first clearly do not appreciate those songs. i know it's stupid but when someone says Murrow or Red Rover are "weak" songs or throwaway songs makes me fume and i have to hold myself back from not posting in that thread.

guess it's kinda like you with BN reissue, only worse b/c there was NEVER an official album. yeah i have the MP3s, and it's amazing, but i would have still liked to have that out as an official release. LB solo release, as it was supposed to be.

i guess all the yoga / meditation / shrinkage may have played the role in LB's current attitude towards what happened.

and, i have to say, after i first heard his 6 SWS songs and once that album came out, i stopped feeling that bad about the whole GOS1 debacle, because artistically i felt LB has finally moved passed it. i did not feel that way when i listened to UTS and GOS (official). so maybe that also plays into LB's current acceptance - because eventually he may came out a better artist because of what happened in those 5-10 years.

[michelej1]

interesting. from some things Cavallo said in one of the FM docs (BTM maybe, although not sure which one?), it sounded he was partially working with Lindsey on GOS some time around 1995-1996 (he did co-produce some of those songs with him)... he claimed he said to LB that he has been inactive for a number of years and that if he puts out another solo album after all this time it would make a splash... and that even bigger splash would be a FM reunion (i.e. the Dance), and so LB agreed to wait for FM reunion first... or something like that. seems that Cavallo was trying to transmit some message he received from higher ups to LB at the time. once the dance happened, it would have been a perfect time imo to put out GOS (like in 1998/99), but my speculation is that at the time someone held it back - again... till LB tried to give the updated version to WB again in 2001. i think in 2001 he may have worked with Whalley and that's the period you are referring to?


No, I'm talking about before Whalley even came. That's when Lindsey said that he was first told that they didn't want his album. So, he figured that the people in charge would be fired soon anyway and he would just wait out the lame duck transition and wait to see who came in next. Then Tom is the one who came in next and Lindsey got his hopes in again. But they had already been dashed by WB before Tom.

Michele

[elle]

No, I'm talking about before Whalley even came. That's when Lindsey said that he was first told that they didn't want his album. So, he figured that the people in charge would be fired soon anyway and he would just wait out the lame duck transition and wait to see who came in next. Then Tom is the one who came in next and Lindsey got his hopes in again. But they had already been dashed by WB before Tom.

Michele

so the period you are talking about - would that fit somewhere between 1996 and 2001? (sorry, for some reason i need to fit what's happening to years / timeframe in my mind :shrug:)

[michelej1]

so the period you are talking about - would that fit somewhere between 1996 and 2001? (sorry, for some reason i need to fit what's happening to years / timeframe in my mind :shrug:)

Yes, it would.

Michele

[secret love]

yeah, i'd be probably still be pissed if i was him, although i guess at same point you just accept it as destiny. plus i don't know the real and whole story. but, i'm pissed now when i just think about not having GOS1 released and how all those songs were scattered around various albums. i'm pissed when i read currently ongoing SYW thread in Rumours forum and many people who are FM or SN fans first clearly do not appreciate those songs. i know it's stupid but when someone says Murrow or Red Rover are "weak" songs or throwaway songs makes me fume and i have to hold myself back from not posting in that thread.

guess it's kinda like you with BN reissue, only worse b/c there was NEVER an official album. yeah i have the MP3s, and it's amazing, but i would have still liked to have that out as an official release. LB solo release, as it was supposed to be.

i guess all the yoga / meditation / shrinkage may have played the role in LB's current attitude towards what happened.

and, i have to say, after i first heard his 6 SWS songs and once that album came out, i stopped feeling that bad about the whole GOS1 debacle, because artistically i felt LB has finally moved passed it. i did not feel that way when i listened to UTS and GOS (official). so maybe that also plays into LB's current acceptance - because eventually he may came out a better artist because of what happened in those 5-10 years.

You're funny, Elle. I know I am one of the people who said Murrow and Red Rover are weak songs. I don't mind that you disagree. Feel free to fume about it...lol...when it comes to music there are so many different strokes for different folks!

[elle]

You're funny, Elle. I know I am one of the people who said Murrow and Red Rover are weak songs. I don't mind that you disagree. Feel free to fume about it...lol...when it comes to music there are so many different strokes for different folks!

i like your open mind and general attitude, secret love. you are open to healthy discussion and differing opinions and i appreciate that a lot, because many people get in a defensive mode instead, for whatever reason.

but see, although i agree with you that tastes are different, and very much so in FM world with so many different songwriters (and i especially appreciate that you came over to LB board to discuss this!), i think some songs are objectively weak, while others are objectively strong, regardless of whether one likes them.

i can appreciate that Red Rover or Murrow are not everybody's cup of tea, that they may be too frantic, too rocking, too much guitar for someone's taste, or whatever problem you have with them. but objectively those are strong songs. so that's where i make a distinction. some songs may be weak, but you or i may love them regardless, for whatever reason (Silver Girls comes to mind ;). others may be strong, but you or i may dislike them.

[secret love]

i like your open mind and general attitude, secret love. you are open to healthy discussion and differing opinions and i appreciate that a lot, because many people get in a defensive mode instead, for whatever reason.

but see, although i agree with you that tastes are different, and very much so in FM world with so many different songwriters (and i especially appreciate that you came over to LB board to discuss this!), i think some songs are objectively weak, while others are objectively strong, regardless of whether one likes them.

i can appreciate that Red Rover or Murrow are not everybody's cup of tea, that they may be too frantic, too rocking, too much guitar for someone's taste, or whatever problem you have with them. but objectively those are strong songs. so that's where i make a distinction. some songs may be weak, but you or i may love them regardless, for whatever reason (Silver Girls comes to mind ;). others may be strong, but you or i may dislike them.

I see what you mean, when I talk about songs being weak of course I can only rely on my own experiences of music in order to judge that. When I play Murrow for other people they have been known to find it very unsettling to the point of asking me to turn the song down or off. Red Rover I agree is a more objectively-strong song. And my personal opinion? There are very few songs on Fleetwood Mac's Say You Will album which I don't like: but yes, Murrow is one of them - I tried to like it I really did but just couldn't. Red Rover initially I enjoyed but I have listened to it enough for the song to lose the appeal it once had.

I actually am a lyricist. And I simply cannot say that the lyrics to Red Rover are objectively strong because I would be lying to myself. If I wrote a song like that I would not feel personally satisfied with it. But as I say, initially I liked it but it wore thin after a few listens and then began to sound tired, worn and cliched.

Again - I agree with you that objectively, we can consider Silver Girl to be a weak song. I love it too, though! And why? Not because Stevie's voice sounds pleasant, not because the music is good (Stevie's vocal on Silver Girl is sub-par and the music is boring)...I like the song because it was written about Sheryl Crow. And apparently this multi-millionaire (Sheryl) has problems just like us. Sure she has money and privilege. But according to Stevie's lyric: Sheryl was born into the wrong generation - S. Crow regrets not signing papers/contracts. Sheryl is a "wild adventurer"...she is a person who makes mistakes, whose life is not perfect and who Stevie clearly adores and counts as a true friend. And it is this story that I love: this honesty and openness. The lyric is just a reminder to me of how much Stevie loves, cares for, stands up for and protects her friends.

But the notion that a song can be "objectively strong" or "objectively weak" is an interesting one. For example, Rock Lobster by the B-52s, a song which so many people love, for me - is from a technical/instrumental perspective, a weak song. But it is so goddamn groovy! It doesn't take a virtuoso musician to play the opening riff but it just sounds so silly and fun that it makes you wanna dance and be happy aha. :]

Would you consider Rock Lobster strong or weak from an objective standpoint?

And within Fleetwood Mac: Running Through the Garden. Weak/strong?

ETA: Let me just clarify the reason why I don't like Murrow or Red Rover has very little to do with the music and everything to do with the lyric. The guitars sound just fine. Mick is in fine form. But what I really connect to in a song is the words. And Lindsey offered in Murrow a very interesting political comment (well...it is more of a political rant but anyways...) about contemporary journalism being in a state of disrepute. Fair enough. I agree. But enough with the melodrama of "pneumatic drills and sharpening knives, blood in the sky, are you dead or alive?" He is just ranting and raving and its is incoherent and illogical - and Linds is seems like an intelligent person and he is still capable of writing better lyrics than the Murrow lyric. Technically Murrow is a brilliant song but the guitar playing is just showy and too noisy for me. Red Rover: I love the instrumental track. I hate the lyric. Same problem.

Lindsey does not seem to have the skill to write lyrics which are accessible to the average listener, whilst remaining opaque so that there is no concern over people spreading rumours such as: "Oh my God did you hear Lindsey is finally Saying Goodbye to Stevie after 25 years and at last their relationship...is all over Red Rover?" Like sorry, Elle, I don't know if you like the lyrics is Red Rover or Say Goodbye for that matter - but I would be personally embarrassed to sing the words Lindsey does live when he performs Red Rover and Say Goodbye live in concert. Too cliched and transparent and all about Stevie, yet again. Stevie the woman who does not love him, and has felt rather indifferent about Lindsey for at least the past 15 years if not much longer. She counts him as a friend nothing more... and I think it is unfair for Lindsey to write these silly lyrics which are disingenous to the true nature of Buckingham/Nicks' relationship. Unfair on the listener. Unfair on Lindsey's wife/kids and unfair on Stevie. It's just ...fake.

[elle]

all about Stevie, yet again. Stevie the woman who does not love him, and has felt rather indifferent about Lindsey for at least the past 15 years if not much longer. She counts him as a friend nothing more...

see i think that we came to a point which seem to happen a lot here - many SN fans seem to appreciate lyrics in her songs first, not so much music. maybe because english is my second language, what i look for in my music is just that - music! although Keith Urban once said that who cares whether one understands the lyrics, if the music is good that's all that's important! (when Fogerty teased him that Australians cannot possibly understand and love his song about baseball).

you love SN's words, but i don't know enough of them to judge, and most of them that people quote as profound and changing their lives seem prosaic to me.

LB is a musician first. Ken Caillat tells a story how during Rumours recording LB would come in with the music and no lyrics, write the sentence on the piece of paper, tear it down into words, and give each person in the studio one piece of paper to write the sentence around the word on that paper! than he'd put them all together and try to make a song out of it! :laugh: :D i find that highly amusing and hilarious, while to you as a lyricist this may be highly offensive?

there is a discussion in a thread somewhere here how he's actually been a very interesting lyricist when he wants to throughout his career, even though he himself puts his ability as a lyricist down.

there are also discussions about different LB songs and buckets like political, social commentary, love, lust, anger etc songs somewhere here. nowhere did i see yet discussed that Red Rover is about Stevie but maybe i missed it?

i usually don't think that even the songs people seem to think LB or SN wrote about each other for sure really are about the other. and i also don't think that songs that LB did write about SN and people are interpreting as longing for lost love are really that. like in It Takes Time, when he says "it was all for you" i don't necessarily interpret that as for gaining her love... more like it was about their constant never ending professional competition and he was always trying to prove something to her.

so, although i personally do think the whole SN/LB love story / dialoguing that they keep still going in songs to this day is somewhat weird and annoying and they should move on (although you can probably find many Lindsey fans that love Stevie's recent songs written about him - because they are about him, while i find some of her recent lyrics sadly stuck somewhere in girl in her 20s instead of an adult woman who lived her life territory), i'm confused about where your apparent certainty about either of them wanting each other in a lover sense these days is coming from (you seem to be certain Lindsey wants to have that with Stevie while she doesn't with him for whatever reason? frankly, looking at their interactions on stage in front of me during this tour i don't think either of them wants that kind of relationship at this point. yes they flirt. Lindsey flirts with 20 other women or girls at the same time too :laugh: ).

[elle]

Lindsey does not seem to have the skill to write lyrics which are accessible to the average listener, whilst remaining opaque
Too cliched and transparent and all about Stevie, yet again.

i looked for thread where we specifically discussed Red Rover lyrics (you know - if gods looked at the world they created and concluded it became too much of a mess so they decided to pull the plug). can't find that thread, but here are 2 threads where LB's political and social commentary songs were discussed a bit http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showthread.php?t=49785 as well as a poll voting Murrow and RR as people's favorite songs in that category http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showthread.php?t=49812&highlight=social+commentary - something that must look stunningly weird to you lol.

anyway, i didn't find any implications anywhere Red Rover is love song about Stevie. it seems to be neatly stashed into social commentary category, especially with the intro LB was giving it during SYW tour as well his Soundstage. so maybe he's too opaque of a lyricist for you after all? ;) :laugh:

EDIT: found very old discussion thread (that i've never seen before, from 2004!) on the meaning of Red Rover lyrics http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showthread.php?t=14710&highlight=rover+gods

[Lindsfan]

but see, although i agree with you that tastes are different, and very much so in FM world with so many different songwriters (and i especially appreciate that you came over to LB board to discuss this!), i think some songs are objectively weak, while others are objectively strong, regardless of whether one likes them.

i can appreciate that Red Rover or Murrow are not everybody's cup of tea, that they may be too frantic, too rocking, too much guitar for someone's taste, or whatever problem you have with them. but objectively those are strong songs. so that's where i make a distinction. some songs may be weak, but you or i may love them regardless, for whatever reason (Silver Girls comes to mind ;). others may be strong, but you or i may dislike them.

I was thinking that very thing. I'm glad you pointed out the distinction. Red Rover and Murrow are hardly weak songs, just because someone doesn't like, get, or appreciate them.



I actually am a lyricist. And I simply cannot say that the lyrics to Red Rover are objectively strong because I would be lying to myself.


Lindsey does not seem to have the skill to write lyrics which are accessible to the average listener, whilst remaining opaque

Objectively, I think they're great, and the links Elle pointed out, above, show that plenty of people not only like, but take different meaning from, those lyrics. Again, just because they're not for everyone, doesn't make them objectively bad.

I also think Lindsey's perfectly capable of writing accessible lyrics. I just think he prefers not to...that is, if he even thinks about it at all. :D He writes what he wants to write. He usually writes the music first, so of course, he's not walking around with lyrics running through his brain day and night, but when he sets down to finally add lyrics to his music, I have no doubt he can go in any direction he feels, and I very much doubt that the first thing that he thinks is gee, how can I make this accessible? Or, gee, I sure hope this appeals to the masses ;)

Besides, lyrics can be accessible to a smaller audience, right?