Say You Will sales ten years after release

[PolishStevieFan]

Does anybody know if "Say You Will" approaches Platinum status? I remember reading somewhere that initially it sold 850.000 copies in US. It's been 10 years since its release, so maybe it has fair chance to finally be certified Platinum, especially considering that Fleetwood Mac's latest tour might enhance popularity of their old catalogue.

[Jondalar]

I don't think an audit has been performed on Fleetwood Mac since around 2009. Landslide has sold over 1,000,000 digital copies but its not been ceritified platinum.

[mitzo]

I like this question - it would be great if it hit platinum. Quite a remarkable album in many ways. Except sales.

[Dex]

Say You Will was the first FM album I bought that I really liked (Bare Trees was the second. Go figure.) Even though I like to think that I find record sales-figures meaningless, I can't help but feel a bit thrilled by the idea of such an important album to me going platinum. :)

Do sales-figures these days include digital purchases? Or is it still physical stuff only?

[WildHearted]

Say You Will was the first FM album I bought that I really liked (Bare Trees was the second. Go figure.) Even though I like to think that I find record sales-figures meaningless, I can't help but feel a bit thrilled by the idea of such an important album to me going platinum. :)

Do sales-figures these days include digital purchases? Or is it still physical stuff only?

They include digital.

[jcalzaretta]

Why would there be no audit? I would have thought it was automatic but it sounds as if someone needs to request? I would think Fleetwood Mac would want it for Rumours and Landslide. I have to think Rumours has sold another million since 2003 (last time it was certified).

[kak125]

Why would there be no audit? I would have thought it was automatic but it sounds as if someone needs to request? I would think Fleetwood Mac would want it for Rumours and Landslide. I have to think Rumours has sold another million since 2003 (last time it was certified).

i think they would have to pay for an audit and i guess nobody is going to do that. ugh!

[dreamer78]

they are still getting the money right?
any body know if they get something that shows them what the check is for ? like this amount for this album , etc?

[jcalzaretta]

Seems like Mick would want to know the status. This is his legacy.

[bethelblues]

Looking back on this album, I think it could've been great, maybe even without Christine's participation. I know some say her presence was needed to bring balance to the different styles, reign in Lindsey's material and more esoteric choices.

Instead of 18 songs, there should have been 10 or 11, which would've made it more definitive and streamlined to listen to. Maybe a shorter run time would've helped it reach platinum status with better critical reviews?? Maybe then they could've gotten some Grammy traction?? I fully believe the order should have been changed up to make it seem a little more cohesive, and not the two separate solo records critique everyone seems to give. I'm sure some of you disagree but I would've preferred Thrown Down as the first track, since I love the opening guitar part/instrumental that builds over several bars. It also didn't help that Stevie wasn't happy with the production of her songs, one small public example we all have being the Thrown Down incident. But I have to agree, some of the production choices were odd, and not just for her songs. I can't listen to this version of Bleed to Love Her or Say Goodbye. The former is way over-produced and is missing the raw passion of The Dance performance, and why Lindsey sped up the latter one doesn't make any sense to me. It loses the power and time for the listener to comprehend the song's meaning and lyrics. Two goodbye tracks at the end only solidifies the disparity, that each songwriter needed their own ending to the album. I'm sure some of you have some opinions on the album too...overall, I see the potential is there, and I can definitely see why some say the work is underrated. I only wish in hindsight they had made a few different choices, as the reception might have been more positive and then we might've seen another album sooner.

[bluefox4000]

This album crushed my hopes for a FM sans Christine. I know this album introduced a lot of people to the Mac, But.....man did it not work for me. I call it the solo mash-up. Still does not work for me, ten years on. I still have the album cause i'm a completest.....but it gathers dust.

Mick

[Jondalar]

This album crushed my hopes for a FM sans Christine. I know this album introduced a lot of people to the Mac, But.....man did it not work for me. I call it the solo mash-up. Still does not work for me, ten years on. I still have the album cause i'm a completest.....but it gathers dust.

Mick

I don't think works either. They didn't harmonize like they are doing on Extended Play. It was too long and they didn't sound like a group. I like a lot of the songs on it, but as a cohesive Fleetwood Mac, no way. It was two solo albums meshed together. I'm really liking what I"m hearing on EP though.

[seekerj]

This album crushed my hopes for a FM sans Christine. I know this album introduced a lot of people to the Mac, But.....man did it not work for me. I call it the solo mash-up. Still does not work for me, ten years on. I still have the album cause i'm a completest.....but it gathers dust.

Mick

I just don't understand why only this particular album gets called out for this. When were any albums "cohesive", and if so, what about them was cohesive? The music, the arrangements, the lyrics... what? To me, all Rumours-era line-up FM albums, having three songwriters, have always had a "separate" feeling to the songs. And that's a good thing, and it's why I was attracted to the band in the first place. I'm sorry, but Monday Morning does not sound like Sugar Daddy to me. Second Hand News does not sound like Songbird. Think About Me does not sound like Beautiful Child. And anything by Stevie or Christine on Mirage does not sound like any of Lindsey's songs on Mirage. (Actually, nothing on this planet sounds like Lindsey's Mirage songs.)

[WildHearted]

I really love Say You Will, actually, save for a few songs that I could do without. I'd be interested to see what the sales figures are for it today.

[bluefox4000]

I just don't understand why only this particular album gets called out for this. When were any albums "cohesive", and if so, what about them was cohesive? The music, the arrangements, the lyrics... what? To me, all Rumours-era line-up FM albums, having three songwriters, have always had a "separate" feeling to the songs. And that's a good thing, and it's why I was attracted to the band in the first place. I'm sorry, but Monday Morning does not sound like Sugar Daddy to me. Second Hand News does not sound like Songbird. Think About Me does not sound like Beautiful Child. And anything by Stevie or Christine on Mirage does not sound like any of Lindsey's songs on Mirage. (Actually, nothing on this planet sounds like Lindsey's Mirage songs.)


I dunno.......lol. I don't. Maybe It's cause Chris isn't there. So it's more noticeable. I DO know I don't like it:laugh:;)

Mick

[KarmaContestant]

Looking back on this album, I think it could've been great, maybe even without Christine's participation. I know some say her presence was needed to bring balance to the different styles, reign in Lindsey's material and more esoteric choices.

Instead of 18 songs, there should have been 10 or 11, which would've made it more definitive and streamlined to listen to. Maybe a shorter run time would've helped it reach platinum status with better critical reviews?? Maybe then they could've gotten some Grammy traction?? I fully believe the order should have been changed up to make it seem a little more cohesive, and not the two separate solo records critique everyone seems to give. I'm sure some of you disagree but I would've preferred Thrown Down as the first track, since I love the opening guitar part/instrumental that builds over several bars. It also didn't help that Stevie wasn't happy with the production of her songs, one small public example we all have being the Thrown Down incident. But I have to agree, some of the production choices were odd, and not just for her songs. I can't listen to this version of Bleed to Love Her or Say Goodbye. The former is way over-produced and is missing the raw passion of The Dance performance, and why Lindsey sped up the latter one doesn't make any sense to me. It loses the power and time for the listener to comprehend the song's meaning and lyrics. Two goodbye tracks at the end only solidifies the disparity, that each songwriter needed their own ending to the album. I'm sure some of you have some opinions on the album too...overall, I see the potential is there, and I can definitely see why some say the work is underrated. I only wish in hindsight they had made a few different choices, as the reception might have been more positive and then we might've seen another album sooner.


Great points! One of the advantages to trimming SYW down to 10 or 11 songs would have been enough leftover songs to release a follow-up album the following year. The 7/8 songs, plus the extra two tracks from the Deluxe version of SYW.

Alternatively, we could have had singles with real b-sides, or a E.P in 2004 or 2005. Lots of options.

All in all, I like SYW, I think it's a strong album, and while it does indeed sound like two solo albums mashed together, I sort of like that it has a he-said she-said back and forth feel to it.

[mitzo]

I actually like the meshed solo project feel of SYW and the 18 tracks make it an extra juicy listen, to me. The downside is that it seems Lindsey had complete free reign to go nuts with things like Murrow and Red Rover and Come. Meanwhile, these are Stevie's best efforts in decades - why she bitches about Lindsey's production on the songs is a mystery to me, he coaxed out some remarkable vocals and made real sonic gems out of virtually all of them. In contrast to the ragged, often drab production on most of TISL.
I love every Stevie track on here, even Silver Girl.

So anyway, yeah, how many units sold?

[bluefox4000]

I remember Seeing the run time and that making it almost DOA to me. I hate super CD cramming run times. I love music.....but I don't have the patience for anything over 45 mins.....i'm serious. Maybe 50 Mins, but that's pushing it. you better have strong materiel. I have tons of playlists of my versions of albums, lol

Again I don't why it comes across so strongly as a non group effort but boy is the feeling there

Mic

[Jondalar]

This thead has made me break out Say You Will :)

[MikeVielhaber]

Great points! One of the advantages to trimming SYW down to 10 or 11 songs would have been enough leftover songs to release a follow-up album the following year. The 7/8 songs, plus the extra two tracks from the Deluxe version of SYW.

Alternatively, we could have had singles with real b-sides, or a E.P in 2004 or 2005. Lots of options.

All in all, I like SYW, I think it's a strong album, and while it does indeed sound like two solo albums mashed together, I sort of like that it has a he-said she-said back and forth feel to it.

I get why some would say Lindsey's tracks sound like a solo album....because they were recorded with that intent and Stevie was shoe horned in after the fact. Most of them any way. But Stevie's songs were recorded for Fleetwood Mac (and some even written with the band in mind) and arranged and produced by Lindsey. What did they have to sound like to not sound like a solo project?

[kak125]

ahh i have been listening to say you will like crazy the past few months. its still one of my favorite cd's and i pretty much love all the songs on it. i think its just as amazing today as it was 10 years ago.

[KarmaContestant]

What did they have to sound like to not sound like a solo project?

Great question, and one I'm not sure I really have an answer for. In my opinion, *not* all of the tracks sound like solo songs, most notably Steal Your Heart Away, Bleed To Love Her, Peacekeeper, Miranda, What's The World Coming To, Say Goodbye, Goodbye Baby, Thrown Down, Not Make Believe, Silver Girl, Say You Will, Illume, Smile At You and Destiny Rules. That's a lot, actually, and they all sound very much at home on a Fleetwood Mac album.

I think the most notable "solo" sounding songs are the rest: Murrow, Come, Red Rover, Running Through The Garden and Everybody Finds Out. Perhaps it's just that these songs stand out so much from their album-mates that they overshadow the "Fleetwood Mac sound" of the other tracks.

Christine offered a lot of temperance between the quirky and mystical of Lindsey and Stevie, respectively; temperance that is missing from SYW.

Again, this is just my opinion.

[bethelblues]

To be honest, I don't think Stevie has been able to capture mystical the way she used to. In a few tracks on this album and In Your Dreams, she often comes off more kitsch, riffing on and attempting to recreate her older work. I think, for instance, the album cover for In Your Dreams may speak to my point.

[bluefox4000]

To be honest, I don't think Stevie has been able to capture mystical the way she used to. In a few tracks on this album and In Your Dreams, she often comes off more kitsch, riffing on and attempting to recreate her older work. I think, for instance, the album cover for In Your Dreams may speak to my point.


For a wonderful album, IMO...that cover nearly made me vomit. Awfully over the top. I'm Stevie...magical.....Did I mention I'm Stevie.....Nicks:laugh:

Mick

[RockawayBlind]

Great question, and one I'm not sure I really have an answer for. In my opinion, *not* all of the tracks sound like solo songs, most notably Steal Your Heart Away, Bleed To Love Her, Peacekeeper, Miranda, What's The World Coming To, Say Goodbye, Goodbye Baby, Thrown Down, Not Make Believe, Silver Girl, Say You Will, Illume, Smile At You and Destiny Rules. That's a lot, actually, and they all sound very much at home on a Fleetwood Mac album.

In truth, all of the songs could have sounded like they belonged on a FM album, but the production was uneven. Stevie's songs, with a couple of exceptions, were produced to be commercial and, in my humble opinion, rather pedestrian in a few cases. Lindsey's songs were mixed and produced with a different mentality, so they didn't mesh too well. Some of Lindsey's choices were odd, too. For instance, Come, Murrow and Say Goodbye would have worked better on a solo project.

Say You Will has some real flashes of brilliance but it lacks cohesion and suffers from poor quality in some of Stevie's songs. Garden and Silver Girl are atrocious, and should have been dropped.

[vivfox]

Instead of 18 songs, there should have been 10 or 11, which would've made it more definitive and streamlined to listen to. Maybe a shorter run time would've helped it reach platinum status


A lot of the fans feel this way but I am thrilled with the amount of songs they gave us. I'd be thrilled with a five album pack of songs from them released at the same time. There is something on there to appeal to all our taste buds. Silver Hurl is the only song I'm not fond of.
To make an album go platinum, the correct song has to be a single. Not since the Tango album have FM or Warner Bros. figured out which song(s) that would be. They should poll us first.

I also wanted to say that I am thrilled with you as a new member. I love reading your opinions on everything Fleetwood Mac.

[bethelblues]

For a wonderful album, IMO...that cover nearly made me vomit. Awfully over the top. I'm Stevie...magical.....Did I mention I'm Stevie.....Nicks:laugh:

Mick

Honestly though, maybe the album cover had more of an impact in the low sales than Stevie may think. When I saw it, I was like barf....that quality is always there, it's ingrained, she doesn't need to hit us over the head with it. It spoke more to the style of a much younger artist and I thought it was corny. I would've gone with a more artistic cover, some kind of collage or montage maybe of her different dreams together: the moonlight, Italy, the ocean, a road trip. Anyway, we're just speaking to the mystical element and how in recent years it may sometimes come off as kitsch when Stevie tries to recreate it and goes over the top.

[bethelblues]

A lot of the fans feel this way but I am thrilled with the amount of songs they gave us. I'd be thrilled with a five album pack of songs from them released at the same time. There is something on there to appeal to all our taste buds. Silver Hurl is the only song I'm not fond of.
To make an album go platinum, the correct song has to be a single. Not since the Tango album have FM or Warner Bros. figured out which song(s) that would be. They should poll us first.

I also wanted to say that I am thrilled with you as a new member. I love reading your opinions on everything Fleetwood Mac.

I wonder, on this record, what do you think the right single would've been? Say You Will probably got the most playtime, right? But Peacekeeper did chart on the hot 100.

Thanks for the comment. I was compelled to post after I saw the show in New York. I wish Fleetwood Mac listened more to the fans as bands like the Stones have done. It is disappointing that they aren't run as efficiently as they could be, taking full advantage of more than just one of their great albums and their various sounds. There's so much there...maybe if some of us have good ideas, it'll get back to them.

Two such ideas of mine: 1. Cut a new album, dialogue it with Rumours as a view of their relationships many years later, about change and reunion, coming back together...2. Bring back Fireflies (I love the lyrics of the fireflies drawn to the light, all together), and put all effort into getting Christine back onboard.

[michelej1]

I get why some would say Lindsey's tracks sound like a solo album....because they were recorded with that intent and Stevie was shoe horned in after the fact. Most of them any way. But Stevie's songs were recorded for Fleetwood Mac (and some even written with the band in mind) and arranged and produced by Lindsey. What did they have to sound like to not sound like a solo project?

Good point. Stevie wrote four new songs for FM and as for Lindsey, even though BTLH and SYHA were solo songs, they were going to be solo songs with Christine, Mick and John on them so . . . pretty Macky in my book. That's six tracks down and 12 (yikes) to go:laugh:.

But really, I think it's very popular to say that SYW was just two solo albums slapped together, but I don't think it's true fundamentally.

Michele

[vivfox]

I wonder, on this record, what do you think the right single would've been? Say You Will probably got the most playtime, right? But Peacekeeper did chart on the hot 100.


First of all the album should have been titled: Steal Your Heart Away or just Steal Your Heart. Say You Will is not a phrase people say.

A good lead single could have been Everybody Finds Out, Running Through the Garden, Steal Your Heart Away or Murrow.

[michelej1]

A lot of the fans feel this way but I am thrilled with the amount of songs they gave us.

True. In Michigan there is a deli that my mom complains about. She says, "the food is good, but they just put too much meat in the sandwiches. It makes them really hard to eat." My uncle and grandmother would look at her and say, "Who complains about their being too much meat in a sandwich!" That's what I think when people say that about SYW.

But it was a badly sequenced album. The close works for me. In fact, those 2 songs following each other makes me like both of them better than I would have separately. But that's a horrendous way to open the album. I'm not criticizing the songs themselves (although I don't like WTWCT) but the trio combo was fatal. That's not the way to lure any listener in.

Then, you have Running Through the Garden and Silver Girl back to back as well. I don't think Stevie is an album sequencer and she may never have sequenced any album at all, so, I'm not saying the tracklisting needed her touch, but whoever slapped it together (Lindsey?) needed somebody's help quite badly.

Michele

[michelej1]

Honestly though, maybe the album cover had more of an impact in the low sales than Stevie may think. When I saw it, I was like barf....that quality is always there, it's ingrained, she doesn't need to hit us over the head with it. It spoke more to the style of a much younger artist and I thought it was corny. I would've gone with a more artistic cover, some kind of collage or montage maybe of her different dreams together: the moonlight, Italy, the ocean, a road trip. Anyway, we're just speaking to the mystical element and how in recent years it may sometimes come off as kitsch when Stevie tries to recreate it and goes over the top.

The white horse stuck out like a pink elephant. It was such a horrendous and incongruent choice for her. It certainly surprised me.

Michele

[michelej1]

First of all the album should have been titled: Steal Your Heart Away or just Steal Your Heart. Say You Will is not a phrase people say.



Well, more people say "say you will" than say "tango in the night."

I think Thrown Down would have been an excellent album title.

Of course, once you get inside the song you have another phrase that no one ever says: "like a barricade.":laugh:

Michele

[bethelblues]

Well, more people say "say you will" than say "tango in the night."

I think Thrown Down would have been an excellent album title.

Of course, once you get inside the song you have another phrase that no one ever says: "like a barricade.":laugh:

Michele

I think it should have been the first track, too.

[MikeVielhaber]

First of all the album should have been titled: Steal Your Heart Away or just Steal Your Heart. Say You Will is not a phrase people say.

There was also a hit song by Foreigner called "Say You Will". Just saying.

[vivfox]

Of course, once you get inside the song(Thrown Down) you have another phrase that no one ever says: "like a barricade.":laugh:

Since 1975 Stevie has known what it's like to have a barricade separating her from us. It might be a phrase used amongst famous musicians for all we know.

[michelej1]

Since 1975 Stevie has known what it's like to have a barricade separating her from us. It might be a phrase used amongst famous musicians for all we know.

As with a cordon, a barricade is not a unique concept, but saying "thrown down like a barricade" does not make a particularly smooth lyric. I always find myself singing "hurricane" instead.

Michele

[TerraRhiannon]

How great would it be if this album was certified platinum! I would be totally thrilled. Although I have mixed feelings about this album, I'm in the same boat in thinking it should have only been 10-12 songs long maximum. There are some truly terrible songs on this LP. Silver Girl, Red Rover and Goodbye Baby to name a few. :shrug: kill me.

And I actually like Running Through The Garden, which seems to be an unpopular opinion. Destiny Rules is an awesome song but Stevie's vocal is just blah.

[bluefox4000]

I just listened to it.....Surprise surprise not as bad as I remember. Still the production blows and 18 songs is......overboard. think of what a nicely trimmed album it could have made.

Mick

[RockawayBlind]

A better album would have been:

1. Right Place to Fade
2. Say You Will
3. Bleed to Lover Her
4. What's the World Coming To
5. Thrown Down
6. Peacekeeper
7. Illume
8. Red Rover
9. Destiny Rules
10. Steal Your Heart Away
11. Say Goodbye
12. Everybody Finds Out
13. Goodbye Baby

I might play around with the sequence a bit more. "Come" has never done it for me. "Miranda" is a cool song but would have worked better as a Lindsey solo track. I might have used "Someone's Gotta Change Your Mind" instead of "Bleed to Love Her," but I do love the studio version of the song.

I'm not crazy about "Illume" for two reasons: The guitars sound a little plastic to me and the lyrics make me cringe but the track does have a cool, weird vibe with subtle Middle Eastern accents, so it would stay.

Someone made a point about singles. Not only has FM kind of lost its way on picking the right singles but track sequencing has also been poor. I know Lindsey wanted to make a point with Murrow, but the song didn't belong where it is, and "What's the World Coming To," though pleasant enough, is almost too bland for a first track. "Right Place to Fade" would have been a perfect opener.

[bethelblues]

As with a cordon, a barricade is not a unique concept, but saying "thrown down like a barricade" does not make a particularly smooth lyric. I always find myself singing "hurricane" instead.

Michele

Uh oh, are you changing Stevie's lyrics? To Thrown Down? I think I've seen that before somewhere from someone else. Remember, it's the poet that she is.

...though sometimes that's not very poetic at all, and forced. I think I like hurricane better.

[KenshiMaster16]

On my iPod, I have the tracklisting down to 13;

01 What's The World Coming To
02 Thrown Down
03 Peacekeeper
04 Say You Will
05 Red Rover
06 Come
07 Running Through The Garden
08 Bleed To Love Her
09 Steal Your Heart Away
10 Everybody Finds Out
11 Destiny Rules
12 Say Goodbye
13 Goodbye Baby

[Villavic]

SYW is one of those albums I never listen entirely, unlike Rumours, Tusk, Mirage or White. So that confirms I don' like it enough.

It seems it only got Gold certif:

Region Certification Sales/shipments
Canada (Music Canada)Gold 50,000^
United Kingdom (BPI) Gold 100,000^
United States (RIAA) Gold 500,000^

Say You Will (http://www.riaa.com/goldandplatinumdata.php?artist=%22Say+You+Will%22)

[KenB]

Someone made a point about singles. Not only has FM kind of lost its way on picking the right singles but track sequencing has also been poor. I know Lindsey wanted to make a point with Murrow, but the song didn't belong where it is, and "What's the World Coming To," though pleasant enough, is almost too bland for a first track. "Right Place to Fade" would have been a perfect opener.

The most radio-friendly songs on SYW are Thrown Down, What's the World Coming To, and Bleed to Love Her. I would have released them as singles in that order. I'd love to hear the specifics of Stevie's complaints about the production of Thrown Down, since for me it's both the best-produced track on the album and the poppiest. The production on it actually makes me think of a contemporary "Gypsy," sound-wise.

I actually really love a number of songs from SYW. Most of them are Lindsey's. Honestly, the only Stevie songs on it that I listen to today are Thrown Down, Goodbye Baby (I love its gentle, lullaby-like quality), and Destiny Rules. The rest of her SYW songs just lack basic melodies; they nearly all have this minor-key, drone-y quality that makes me impatient for a chord change to come along. Illume is the worst in that regard.

I disagree with the person who said Bleed to Love Her is overproduced. I love how layered it is, and I find it passionate, very pretty, and emotionally moving.

Also, I even *thought* I loved the much-maligned Say Goodbye... until I heard the live version. I still like the studio version, but slowing it down really brings out the beauty and tenderness in the song. What would have been awesome on the new EP is a new studio version of SG that's closer to the live version. (Is there a very clean-sounding live recording of SG out there anywhere?)

[bethelblues]

I disagree with the person who said Bleed to Love Her is overproduced. I love how layered it is, and I find it passionate, very pretty, and emotionally moving.

I was the person. Let me explain what I think: I think Lindsey tends to overproduce his vocals on studio recordings, which lose the roughness of his current voice and in some ways try to mirror his much younger and higher sound. I actually think that Lindsey has a very feminine style of singing in his studio work (not that that is a bad thing). I see that here in Bleed to Love Her, which I believe absolutely pales to its live performance from The Dance which had so much passion. The song, in my opinion, became merely ordinary with its way overbearing electronic drum beat and is much weaker than its less complex version, arguably one of the best Lindsey has written. And that's because it's missing the raw emotion he brings to his concert vocals. It was by far my favorite of their new songs performed for The Dance.

[Jondalar]

The album feels uneven.

Well I like almost all Lindseys song on the album and his songs would make an excellent solo album. I thought Lindsey should of had 4 singles from this album, but radio put them out to pasture.

I don't think Stevie's songs are as good as his. The production on Illume and Thrown Down is stellar but I don't like the lyrics at all. Doesn't make a lick of sense, and if someone has to constantly explain the meaning of a song, there is a problem. I think the song Goodbye Baby is very weak. I like the words to Silver Girl, but its blah. Everybody Finds Out doesn't feel right on Fleetwood Mac Album. Neither does Running through the Garden. I do think that her work on this album was better than TISL. Destiny Rules was my favorite song from her on this album.

They just don't sound like a group.

[bluefox4000]

I remember being so excited about coming to Bleed to Love her.....And then my face just Deflating. Lindsey.......What. Did. You. Do????? Talk about killing a song with just so many layers of crap. First Buckingham guitar solo that was boring too.

I'll stick to the Dance on this one.

Mick

[aleuzzi]

I've come to really appreciate Say You Will. It has so much music. Generous! It's uneven and occasionally scattershot but overall the quality is pretty high. It's certainly the best MAC studio album since Mirage, I think.

But I was--and continue to be--way more amped about In the Meantime, which has more classic Mac music on it than the actual Mac album.

[StevieNicksfann]

I love all of Stevie's songs on the album (and yes there songs of hers I don't like) including Not Make Believe which should have been a single imo. I also usually like a lot of Lindsey's stuff (I love all 3 of his compositions on the EP) but only Miranda, Bleed To Love Her, and Steal Your Heart Away really do anything for me - although I can tolerate WTWCT and Peacekeeper. I do like the live version of Say Goodbye. The rest just don't speak to me.

Single choices imho:


Thrown Down
Miranda
Say You Will
Steal Your Heart Away
Not Make Believe
Bleed To Love Her
Running Through The Garden
Goodbye Baby

I go back and forth on Destiny Rules and Everybody Finds Out. But bottom line that's how strong I think Stevie's contributions were.

[MikeVielhaber]

A better album would have been:

1. Right Place to Fade
2. Say You Will
3. Bleed to Lover Her
4. What's the World Coming To
5. Thrown Down
6. Peacekeeper
7. Illume
8. Red Rover
9. Destiny Rules
10. Steal Your Heart Away
11. Say Goodbye
12. Everybody Finds Out
13. Goodbye Baby

I might play around with the sequence a bit more. "Come" has never done it for me. "Miranda" is a cool song but would have worked better as a Lindsey solo track. I might have used "Someone's Gotta Change Your Mind" instead of "Bleed to Love Her," but I do love the studio version of the song.

I'm not crazy about "Illume" for two reasons: The guitars sound a little plastic to me and the lyrics make me cringe but the track does have a cool, weird vibe with subtle Middle Eastern accents, so it would stay.

Someone made a point about singles. Not only has FM kind of lost its way on picking the right singles but track sequencing has also been poor. I know Lindsey wanted to make a point with Murrow, but the song didn't belong where it is, and "What's the World Coming To," though pleasant enough, is almost too bland for a first track. "Right Place to Fade" would have been a perfect opener.

I remember when Say You Will came out being disappointed that "Right Place to Fade" (or "Twist of Fate" as I knew it at the time) was not on there. I thought it would've fit perfectly. I was disappointed again when Under the Skin came out and then finally glad to finally see it when Gift of Screws came out.

[bethelblues]

I remember being so excited about coming to Bleed to Love her.....And then my face just Deflating. Lindsey.......What. Did. You. Do????? Talk about killing a song with just so many layers of crap. First Buckingham guitar solo that was boring too.

Yeah, my feelings exactly.

...but I don't like the lyrics at all. Doesn't make a lick of sense, and if someone has to constantly explain the meaning of a song, there is a problem.

This is something keen to pick up on. When people don't get what the person is singing about, then their ideas don't translate and the music fails to resonate as strongly with the target audience. The singles have to do that first and foremost. As much as I love the opening to Thrown Down and think it's a really catchy song, there are certainly some weird lyric choices. Apparently, some people think this song (along with Fall From Grace) was written about what may have happened in 1997. That Lindsey had been flirting with Stevie during The Dance (see the 5-member interview on YouTube), and they quite possibly rekindled their relationship in an affair when Lindsey found out his girlfriend was pregnant. I asked about this in the Stevie and Lindsey intimacy thread, and it seems like it is a theory that's been around. But for the casual listener, can they actually get any sense of that through the song?

[KenB]

I remember being so excited about coming to Bleed to Love her.....And then my face just Deflating. Lindsey.......What. Did. You. Do????? Talk about killing a song with just so many layers of crap. First Buckingham guitar solo that was boring too.

I'll stick to the Dance on this one.

Mick

Huh. I just don't get it. I just went back and listened to Bleed to Love Her on "The Dance" again, and I honestly don't hear how the live version is so much better. I do agree that Lindsey's vocal is rawer on the live version and maybe too processed on SYW. But apart from that one element, I prefer the production on the studio track. I *love* the extended ending, from the texture of the guitar to the solo itself. And I don't hear the mechanized percussion others have mentioned, except a bit near the beginning before Mick kicks in, and it just doesn't bother me there. For me, the SYV version of Bleed to Love Her is one of Lindsey's all-time high points with Mac.

[KarmaContestant]

The white horse stuck out like a pink elephant. It was such a horrendous and incongruent choice for her. It certainly surprised me.

Michele

I love the cover of IYD. The white horse is representative of Rhiannon, who rode about on a white horse.

Stevie's still *really* into that mythology, even though she rarely speaks of it any longer.

[MikeVielhaber]

Huh. I just don't get it. I just went back and listened to Bleed to Love Her on "The Dance" again, and I honestly don't hear how the live version is so much better. I do agree that Lindsey's vocal is rawer on the live version and maybe too processed on SYW. But apart from that one element, I prefer the production on the studio track. I *love* the extended ending, from the texture of the guitar to the solo itself. And I don't hear the mechanized percussion others have mentioned, except a bit near the beginning before Mick kicks in, and it just doesn't bother me there. For me, the SYV version of Bleed to Love Her is one of Lindsey's all-time high points with Mac.

I definitely think the ending of the studio version is better. And the bridge is pushing his vocal range a bit on The Dance version. Otherwise, they're equal to me.

[AbbiJoy78]

Say You Will was the first Fleetwood Mac album that came out when I was a big fan. For me it was like an event, and it was around my birthday and I played it that whole month of May....and then in the middle of that month, that was when the tour was in my area and I saw two shows. So it was like this fan-overload for me, and that MAY have biased why I loved this album SO much. All of the above played its part: first album as a real fan, a tour right away to hear these songs live --so soon into getting the album, and all of this feeling like a great b-day present. For others who have been a fan since the beginning, maybe this album fell short for you, or was too all-over-the place. For ME, it was 18 songs of ecstacy LOL. I mean the album went on and on.

Parts of it seemed like a Trouble In Shangri-La Part 2. But I loved that album too. I got into that WAY more than I could with In Your Dreams. So I really loved Stevie's songs on SYW. And Lindsey's were all good too.

Yes it may be like two solo albums together, but when you have Stevie's vocals in the background on a Lindsey song, and vice versa, and then the production factor, well...then it becomes FM. And finally Sad Angel brings some of that back for me this year!:D

[michelej1]

I love the cover of IYD. The white horse is representative of Rhiannon, who rode about on a white horse.

Stevie's still *really* into that mythology, even though she rarely speaks of it any longer.

And Stevie does use that imagery in her concert drawings that play behind the songs. Rhiannon is sharp-featured, hooded, mysterious in those drawings, but on the album cover, Stevie doesn't look like Rhiannon to me. She looks like a peasant woman.

Michele

[michelej1]

Say You Will was the first Fleetwood Mac album that came out when I was a big fan. For me it was like an event,

Yes, I can understand this. It's how I felt about Mirage. I became a fan before it was released and it was the first album I had time to anticipate. I used to go to the library and look at Billboard, because a subscription was too much for me to afford and I'd go to the record store and they would have these "new release" press memos that I would ask the clerk if I could see. I was just waiting for it.

Michele

[KarmaContestant]

And Stevie does use that imagery in her concert drawings that play behind the songs. Rhiannon is sharp-featured, hooded, mysterious in those drawings, but on the album cover, Stevie doesn't look like Rhiannon to me. She looks like a peasant woman.
Michele

:laugh: I'm thinking that she would disagree. :p

[michelej1]

:laugh: I'm thinking that she would disagree. :p

She looks like a midwife who rode 10 miles to deliver the villager's baby.

But that makes me think of what Stevie would be like in the delivery room. I remember that time she said that she and someone else visited Robin in the hospital and the doctor took Robin's temp and it was normal, but Stevie's was high.

I could see her in the room when some woman went into labor. Stevie would be convinced that she was having contractions.

Michele

[KarmaContestant]

She looks like a midwife who rode 10 miles to deliver the villager's baby.



Oh come on. :laugh: No peasant woman was ever so clean or had hair so smoothly brushed. Or a dress so finely made. And certainly, no peasant owned such a perfectly shiny white horse with a halo that followed them around. :D

[bethelblues]

Oh come on. :laugh: No peasant woman was ever so clean or had hair so smoothly brushed. Or a dress so finely made. And certainly, no peasant owned such a perfectly shiny white horse with a halo that followed them around. :D

Exactly, the hair makes her Stevie Nicks. She's not in character or anything. I can only laugh when I think of what Lindsey might have said (not to Stevie, of course) upon first glimpsing the album cover.

[michelej1]

That's the point. She looks like Stevie Nicks, not a Welsh witch and not particularly mystical. I really don't think STEVIE does horses, although she has been on them when playing characters. The fact that she is herself in that photo makes the horse terribly incongruent to my eyes. Michele

[vivfox]

I used to go to the library and look at Billboard, because a subscription was too much for me to afford and I'd go to the record store and they would have these "new release" press memos that I would ask the clerk if I could see.

I'm glad you said this because it reminded me how I used to go to my favorite record store and gladly wait a week or two for the current issue of Billboard to be given to me. This went on for years and years. My favorite column was Boxscore. I was always excited to see how well Stevie or FM were doing in concert and how much money they were making. I actually once purchased a six month subscription so I could get them mailed to me. This was in 1984 and FM or Stevie didn't do any touring then. It felt like a large waste of money because there was hardly anything at all pertaining to them in the magazine at that time, but I did learn a lot of how the music business ran.

[evenstevie23]

As with a cordon, a barricade is not a unique concept, but saying "thrown down like a barricade" does not make a particularly smooth lyric. I always find myself singing "hurricane" instead.

Michele
:nod: After watching the Youtube version where Lindsey is trying to direct Stevie on her person usage in "Thrown Down" and she retorts that that is how she writes as a poet, etc, I have found myself singing the words you describe. I thought I was the only one.:laugh:

[SteveMacD]

I'm glad you said this because it reminded me how I used to go to my favorite record store and gladly wait a week or two for the current issue of Billboard to be given to me. This went on for years and years. My favorite column was Boxscore. I was always excited to see how well Stevie or FM were doing in concert and how much money they were making. I actually once purchased a six month subscription so I could get them mailed to me. This was in 1984 and FM or Stevie didn't do any touring then.
You made Christine cry.

[vivfox]

You made Christine cry.


Her audience capacity wasn't large enough to enter Billboard's Boxscores.

[Macfanforever]

I always love SYW.It got great radio airplay and all tunes are great.

[RockawayBlind]

The most radio-friendly songs on SYW are Thrown Down, What's the World Coming To, and Bleed to Love Her. I would have released them as singles in that order.

I think SYW is also a pretty good single, though the song is a bit dull. In my sequencing, I front-load the album with these songs because they are more commercially appealing. In the old days, bands would put the better songs, or the ones they thought would be singles, up front. SYW suffers in this regard because it gets too weird too quickly.

[michelej1]

Yes, I'm no fan of Over and Over, but I think the first 3 songs do give you a good representation of what you're going to find on that looong album.

SYW needed to do that. Open with Say You Will and Peacekeeper .

Michele

[Ulpian]

I always love SYW.It got great radio airplay and all tunes are great.

It has grown on me. I think there are some beautiful songs, but there is also some padding / utter rubbish.

I could easily have cut Red Rover, Silver Girl and Come.

For me this was the first album that came out when I was a real fan. I got really into FM just as The Dance tour had stopped. I suppose I was disappointed that Christine didn't feature beyond BTLH and SYHA and at the time that really put me off.

Now, I would say Peacekeeper and Thrown Down are up there with my favourite FM songs.

I also quite like that you can hear Christine on BTLH, particularly. Although I like The Dance version, the studio track feels like a nice 'goodbye' to the five-person lineup as I hear them all on it.

[TheSorcerer]

Two of my favourite Fleetwood Mac songs appear on Say You Will - Illume and Steal Your Heart Away. The main problem with the album is that it's bloated and full of filler. If they had cut maybe 6 tracks and kept 12 it would have been a really strong album.

My ideal 12 track album would be:

What's the World Coming to
Illume
Thrown Down
Miranda
Say You Will
Peacekeeper
Come
Running Through the Garden
Steal Your Heart Away
bleed to love her
Destiny Rules
Goodbye Baby

I do prefer the version of Thrown Down that Stevie recorded during the TISL album sessions to the one on SYW. It's definitely a better album than The Eagles comeback album in 2007. That was a bloody snoozefest.

[vivfox]

If they had cut maybe 6 tracks and kept 12 it would have been a really strong album.


In the real world, what if they had done what you asked? You know the outcome would have been six of your chosen songs would have been cut and the ones you call turds would have been included. With 18 songs there are so many for you to love and hate that what you end up enjoying becomes a full albums worth of material anyway.

[elle]

In the real world, what if they had done what you asked? You know the outcome would have been six of your chosen songs would have been cut and the ones you call turds would have been included. With 18 songs there are so many for you to love and hate that what you end up enjoying becomes a full albums worth of material anyway.

exactly! i'm reading all these posts where people state how their main problem is that they got too much music for their money.

this problem statement is usually followed by which songs they'd select to stay and which ones they'd cut. and almost every one of the posters has a very different selection, calling completely different songs brilliant or filler. :) :D

nevertheless, it is very interesting to see which songs different people select and how different tastes are. :nod: and i do have my own selection too, of course. mostly my preference would have been Lindsey releasing original Gift of Screws and him never ever getting around to co-writing WTWCT. of Stevie's songs on SYW i do love Destiny Rules, and can listen to Say You Will, plus Thrown Down is very, as Lindsey would say, fleetwood-mac-y.

i agree that album sequencing is atrocious.

re left-field-different-progressive or whatever you would call them songs that so many would exclude, remember, that's what FM was going for at the time. Lindsey was not going for fleetwood-mac-y, he was going for we-are-still-great-evolving-band. at least according to everything he said in that DR doc. i guess they somehow decided after SYW that world wanted just BN fleetwood-mac-y... so that's what they seem to be trying to do with current set of songs, mostly.

i mean, Sad Angel is practically a FM/LB formula for a perfect pop song - a bit of verses, a layer of catchy chorus, a layer of catchy guitar parts, small guitar solo, a layer of bitc*ing about something the other band member did, mix it up and voila! the result is still a great extremely catchy song, don't get me wrong. :D :cool:

[Say You Will]

I agree. I feel the songs on SYW are some of Stevie's strongest in years. Much more than IYD, While I understand why people are having issues with the length of the CD and the number of songs. I am very happy that it was released like this. To me, the more FM songs the better.
I also miss Christine's presence but she didn't want to contribute and that was that..

[gldstwmn]

i think they would have to pay for an audit and i guess nobody is going to do that. ugh!

Why bother at this point? It's not like they have anything to prove. If it were me I'd just sit back and collect the checks. :]

[shackin'up]

re left-field-different-progressive or whatever you would call them songs that so many would exclude, remember, that's what FM was going for at the time. Lindsey was not going for fleetwood-mac-y, he was going for we-are-still-great-evolving-band. at least according to everything he said in that DR doc. i guess they somehow decided after SYW that world wanted just BN fleetwood-mac-y... so that's what they seem to be trying to do with current set of songs, mostly.

i mean, Sad Angel is practically a FM/LB formula for a perfect pop song - a bit of verses, a layer of catchy chorus, a layer of catchy guitar parts, small guitar solo, a layer of bitc*ing about something the other band member did, mix it up and voila! the result is still a great extremely catchy song, don't get me wrong. :D :cool:

But the main Fleetwood Mac-y attraction of Sad Angel is the exquisite rythmtrack. Those two nail that song, and make it sound like the brand.

[elle]

i mean, Sad Angel is practically a FM/LB formula for a perfect pop song - a bit of verses, a layer of catchy chorus, a layer of catchy guitar parts, small guitar solo, a layer of bitc*ing about something the other band member did, mix it up and voila! the result is still a great extremely catchy song, don't get me wrong. :D :cool:

But the main Fleetwood Mac-y attraction of Sad Angel is the exquisite rythmtrack. Those two nail that song, and make it sound like the brand.

agree, although i wouldn't say the main, more like the sum of the parts. and that's what apparently happened in the studio according to Mick - LB brought the ingredients i listed above, and FM brought what you listed, and it all meshed "organically".

i have to also say, rhythm section has been very strong, tight, and pronounced in live versions on this tour so far, with several old songs nicely reworked (Not That Funny comes to mind).

[secondhandchain]

But the main Fleetwood Mac-y attraction of Sad Angel is the exquisite rythmtrack. Those two nail that song, and make it sound like the brand.

Same for Miss Fantasy. Mick is great on this track. His fill out of the bridge is classic mac. Lindsey seems to be letting him play a little more instead of just holding the steady beat.

[RockawayBlind]

this problem statement is usually followed by which songs they'd select to stay and which ones they'd cut. and almost every one of the posters has a very different selection, calling completely different songs brilliant or filler. :) :D


That's generally true, but I think there is some consensus on Silver Girl, Running Through the Garden and Come. If you did a poll, they would qualify as the biggest turds.

[MikeVielhaber]

That's generally true, but I think there is some consensus on Silver Girl, Running Through the Garden and Come. If you did a poll, they would qualify as the biggest turds.

I think Come is great rocker. Probably better for solo, but it's good. The other two are kind of meh though.

[RockawayBlind]

I think Come is great rocker. Probably better for solo, but it's good. The other two are kind of meh though.

Yeah, Come is one of those love it or hate it songs. It's screechy and horrid to my ear, though it starts out very interesting.

[tabruns]

So in this entire thread did anyone actually ever post updated sales figures (not awards but actual numbers) for SYW? :)

[Jondalar]

So in this entire thread did anyone actually ever post updated sales figures (not awards but actual numbers) for SYW? :)

Billboard by Keith Caulfield, Los Angeles | May 10, 2013 8:30 AM EDT
http://www.billboard.com/biz/article...rling-hits-new

-- Fleetwood Mac, "Extended Play" (EP) (No. 48): After a 10 year wait, Fleetwood Mac has returned to the Billboard 200 chart with a new studio album. The legendary band's Extended Play (EP) bows at No. 48, selling 9,000 copies in its first week.

The self-released set, issued on the LMJS imprint (an acronym for the first names of the four members of the band), is exclusive to iTunes. The four-song effort is the group's first release outside of the Warner Music family of labels since 1971.

The band's last full-length album, “Say You Will,” released on Reprise/Warner Bros., arrived on the chart almost exactly 10 years ago this week. The set debuted and peaked at No. 3 on the chart dated May 3, 2003. To date, it has sold 864,000 copies in the United States.

[KenB]

[QUOTE=Jondalar;1092604]Billboard by Keith Caulfield, Los Angeles | May 10, 2013 8:30 AM EDT
http://www.billboard.com/biz/article...rling-hits-new

-- Fleetwood Mac, "Extended Play" (EP) (No. 48): After a 10 year wait, Fleetwood Mac has returned to the Billboard 200 chart with a new studio album. The legendary band's Extended Play (EP) bows at No. 48, selling 9,000 copies in its first week.

This isn't about the SYW question -- but, yikes. 9,000 copies? At $4 a pop, that's $36,000, of which the band will get about $20,000. For a legacy act like FM, sales almost always drop off after the first week. $20,000 in an album's biggest week might be nice for a young indie band, but for Mac it's tantamount to no income at all. With numbers like that, what would the incentive be for them to continue recording? (I don't think Lindsey cares about the money, but it's clear from her recent comments that Stevie does -- and it appears she's right that people don't care enough to buy their songs anymore.)

[KenshiMaster16]

[QUOTE=Jondalar;1092604]Billboard by Keith Caulfield, Los Angeles | May 10, 2013 8:30 AM EDT
http://www.billboard.com/biz/article...rling-hits-new

-- Fleetwood Mac, "Extended Play" (EP) (No. 48): After a 10 year wait, Fleetwood Mac has returned to the Billboard 200 chart with a new studio album. The legendary band's Extended Play (EP) bows at No. 48, selling 9,000 copies in its first week.

This isn't about the SYW question -- but, yikes. 9,000 copies? At $4 a pop, that's $36,000, of which the band will get about $20,000. For a legacy act like FM, sales almost always drop off after the first week. $20,000 in an album's biggest week might be nice for a young indie band, but for Mac it's tantamount to no income at all. With numbers like that, what would the incentive be for them to continue recording? (I don't think Lindsey cares about the money, but it's clear from her recent comments that Stevie does -- and it appears she's right that people don't care enough to buy their songs anymore.)

Has less to do with people not wanting it and more to do with people not knowing it exists. I've been playing the EP through my iPod in my store I manage since its release and every day I have at least a few people ask me or my employee's if that's new Mac material thats being played and why and how the material 'snuck out' and if it was available for purchase yet. Radio isn't picking it up, there's no real promotion unless you find out about it the night you see them on tour (if you are seeing them this go around) and thus far it's only been on iTunes and now Amazon with no physical release set in stone yet. Not to mention it's released through them so there were no online ads, no commercials, no television/radio promotion deals, nothing of the likes they had with Say You Will's release. That's the problem. They self released an EP with no promotion and limited availability. As excited as I was for this new music, those are about the numbers I was expecting. With the age of the internet, the majority of music-buyers don't hunt down music, they buy what they hear that they like. The problem is, unless you know for a fact it's on iTunes or Amazon or whatever, you're not hearing it unless you see them live. There lies the problem.

[KarmaContestant]

[QUOTE=Jondalar;1092604]Billboard by Keith Caulfield, Los Angeles | May 10, 2013 8:30 AM EDT
http://www.billboard.com/biz/article...rling-hits-new

-- Fleetwood Mac, "Extended Play" (EP) (No. 48): After a 10 year wait, Fleetwood Mac has returned to the Billboard 200 chart with a new studio album. The legendary band's Extended Play (EP) bows at No. 48, selling 9,000 copies in its first week.

This isn't about the SYW question -- but, yikes. 9,000 copies? At $4 a pop, that's $36,000, of which the band will get about $20,000. For a legacy act like FM, sales almost always drop off after the first week. $20,000 in an album's biggest week might be nice for a young indie band, but for Mac it's tantamount to no income at all. With numbers like that, what would the incentive be for them to continue recording? (I don't think Lindsey cares about the money, but it's clear from her recent comments that Stevie does -- and it appears she's right that people don't care enough to buy their songs anymore.)

The thing is, bands and singers don't make riches from album sales anymore. They just...don't. An indie band that sold 9,000 copies wouldn't make squat from their album sales - maybe 3% if they are lucky. The real money is in touring, and with many bands these days a new album is the promotion for a tour - in the old days it was the tour that promoted the album, back when tickets were cheap and royalties were high, but that's just not the way it works anymore.

That's why people like the Stones and Madonna don't bother to release albums, or choose instead to release crappy albums. When you make 300M off a tour, who needs album sales? :shrug:

One could make the argument that Fleetwood Mac doesn't need good albums either, or albums at all, in order to sell concert tickets. In that same light, I think the E.P. is really, truly, just a gift for fans - Lindsey likes recording and he knows that we want...no, rather, he knows that we WAAAAANNNNTTTTTT new music.

[shackin'up]

Yeah, Come is one of those love it or hate it songs. It's screechy and horrid to my ear, though it starts out very interesting.

Come is special. Weird, ugly, But with an unneglectible tension.

[michelej1]

I really don't think that Come belonged on an FM album, but it does have it's charm and was especially good during Lindsey's last tour.

Aside from the guitar solo, the rise and fall, from quiet, to crescendo and then crash, is very dramatic.

Michele

[elle]

One could make the argument that Fleetwood Mac doesn't need good albums either, or albums at all, in order to sell concert tickets. In that same light, I think the E.P. is really, truly, just a gift for fans - Lindsey likes recording and he knows that we want...no, rather, he knows that we WAAAAANNNNTTTTTT new music.

completely agree. :thumbsup:

[redbird]

For me the best songs on this album are just so much better than the worst ones, I can't figure out why they're together except that they were ready to go. But then as someone else pointed out, what's good and what's bad is subjective and we all have different opinions. I feel like the creme de la creme of SYW is only 10-12 songs, but I wouldn't need to cut that many so long as I could be rid of "Say You Will" and especially "What's the World Coming To". Lindsey may have done amazing things on this record, but o h m y g o d that song is such pap. The other 16 songs I can deal with. Even though I think that "Illume" and "Silver Girl" are a little too awkward at points, and "Peacekeeper" and "Steal Your Heart Away" are also a little bland (not nearly as bad as WTWCT). "Come" and "Goodbye Baby" aren't especially meaningful to me but I can appreciate them.

I always think of SYW as two albums, but not necessary the Stevie solo album + the Lindsey solo album, rather the album I want and the album I don't :laugh: But yes it's subjective. Maybe it's my attention span at fault; I really like albums to be artistic statements in themselves, either that or retrospective compilations, and I feel like SYW would hold my attention more if it was shorter and told more of a story. It doesn't fascinate me the way double-album Tusk did, I mean, at least 8 of the songs are ostensibly designed to be radio-friendly (but I don't like 2003 radio the way I like 1977 radio, granted I've only heard 1977 radio through the oldies station), and some of that feels a lot like filler to me.

I do have a personal version of SYW I put on my own iPod, but it's not perfect either so I don't imagine I could do sooo much better. For one, Stevie's songs are way more "topical" in that, if this is the story of Fleetwood Mac since the The Dance reunion, all the songs I'd keep of hers are either about Lindsey to some extent or about herself in the context of relationships, while Lindsey's got songs about the news media and politics and whatnot. I'm sure someone else could make a sound argument against my choices. (If anyone cares, "Miranda", "Thrown Down" and "Bleed to Love Her" would be the first three spots in some order, then "Murrow" followed by "Everybody Finds Out" followed by "Smile At You" as the **** Just Got Real part of the album, then "Red Rover" as a breather, and then it has to end with "Running Through the Garden", "Destiny Rules", and "Say Goodbye".)

This thread did make me re-listen to the album again, and boy "Say Goodbye" really is much better slowed down ala the live performances. Still a moving song though. "I fall down, I get up" has become something of a coping mechanism for me personally, hahah, glad to know I'm not the only one Lindsey.

(I'm sorry I know this thread is a month old, I'm bored and I didn't get to go to my concert and I needed to talk Mac :laugh:)

[secret love]

For me the best songs on this album are just so much better than the worst ones, I can't figure out why they're together except that they were ready to go. But then as someone else pointed out, what's good and what's bad is subjective and we all have different opinions. I feel like the creme de la creme of SYW is only 10-12 songs, but I wouldn't need to cut that many so long as I could be rid of "Say You Will" and especially "What's the World Coming To". Lindsey may have done amazing things on this record, but o h m y g o d that song is such pap. The other 16 songs I can deal with. Even though I think that "Illume" and "Silver Girl" are a little too awkward at points, and "Peacekeeper" and "Steal Your Heart Away" are also a little bland (not nearly as bad as WTWCT). "Come" and "Goodbye Baby" aren't especially meaningful to me but I can appreciate them.

I always think of SYW as two albums, but not necessary the Stevie solo album + the Lindsey solo album, rather the album I want and the album I don't :laugh: But yes it's subjective. Maybe it's my attention span at fault; I really like albums to be artistic statements in themselves, either that or retrospective compilations, and I feel like SYW would hold my attention more if it was shorter and told more of a story. It doesn't fascinate me the way double-album Tusk did, I mean, at least 8 of the songs are ostensibly designed to be radio-friendly (but I don't like 2003 radio the way I like 1977 radio, granted I've only heard 1977 radio through the oldies station), and some of that feels a lot like filler to me.

I do have a personal version of SYW I put on my own iPod, but it's not perfect either so I don't imagine I could do sooo much better. For one, Stevie's songs are way more "topical" in that, if this is the story of Fleetwood Mac since the The Dance reunion, all the songs I'd keep of hers are either about Lindsey to some extent or about herself in the context of relationships, while Lindsey's got songs about the news media and politics and whatnot. I'm sure someone else could make a sound argument against my choices. (If anyone cares, "Miranda", "Thrown Down" and "Bleed to Love Her" would be the first three spots in some order, then "Murrow" followed by "Everybody Finds Out" followed by "Smile At You" as the **** Just Got Real part of the album, then "Red Rover" as a breather, and then it has to end with "Running Through the Garden", "Destiny Rules", and "Say Goodbye".)

This thread did make me re-listen to the album again, and boy "Say Goodbye" really is much better slowed down ala the live performances. Still a moving song though. "I fall down, I get up" has become something of a coping mechanism for me personally, hahah, glad to know I'm not the only one Lindsey.

(I'm sorry I know this thread is a month old, I'm bored and I didn't get to go to my concert and I needed to talk Mac :laugh:)

Funny that you say you can't stand What's the World Coming To ...I really like it and find it quite endearing. It sounds like a political statement to me almost (like Peacekeeper) - it's a nice little departure from the Mac's usual subject matter (love, relationships, fellow band members). Say You Will I fell in love with from the first listen and it also helped to inspire me to write my first song.

I hated Say Goodbye at first because it sounded very cliched to my ear and instrumentally quite bland. However it has grown on me particularly after viewing the professionally shot 2003 (Live in Boston) and 2005 (Live at the Bass Performance Hall) live performances of the song - there is some beauty in these gentle performances that did not really translate well on to tape in my opinion. Goodbye Baby is beautiful...for me it's more about end of life than the end of Stevie and Lindsey's relationship. If you were to interpret the lyrics literally it could be about an abortion, or a miscarriage...but who knows?

Thrown Down and Steal Your Heart Away were the stand out tracks for me on the Say You Will record. I know Thrown Down was written in 1997 and that Stevie said it is about Lindsey...but this doesn't really make sense to me (unless the song is a complete lie hehe!). "He fell for her again/She watched it happen" and "Maybe now he could prove to her that he could be good for her and that they should be together" don't really fit with what BN were saying at the time, e.g. Lindsey suggesting (tongue in cheek/sarcastically) that he and Stevie might hook up again sometime soon (It was a joke - he did not seem to have any desire for this to happen)... Stevie responding with "Over my dead body"

Anyway, Thrown Down is a great song and Steal Your Heart Away is too - it's just wonderful. I really liked Say You Will as a complete album. Could have done without Murrow, Red Rover, Smile at You, Say Goodbye. The Dance version of Bleed to Love Her is my favourite but I like both versions (live and studio). SYW is definitely reminiscent of Tusk (Tusk is obviously a superior product, but both albums are experimental to varying degrees, both are double albums). I loved Stevie's bonus track Not Make Believe - love: "It hurts my self esteem, it hurts my every-thing. I am reeling ooh it hurts my feelings"!

SYW does feel like the Stevie show to me though - let's face it, Lindsey put just two new songs on the table (I think they were WTWCT and Peacekeeper). Stevie wrote four great new songs with Fleetwood Mac in mind (SYW, Illume, Destiny Rules, Silver Girl) and finally finished and recorded some great demos diehard fans no doubt had been wanting for years ... she didn't just lift the majority of her contribution of songs off what was intended to be a solo record like Lindsey. That said - they both brought their A-game. Was a shame Stevie only performed two of her own SYW songs on the 2003-2004 world tour. Would have been good to keep Running Through the Garden and Destiny Rules in the set, even better have all the eight "new" songs played on opening night plus Steal Your Heart Away and Thrown Down.

This post has gone on much too long ... sorry guys! Here's something I thought might be worth sharing while I think of it (writing about Goodbye Baby made me think of this song for some reason... if you haven't heard it do yourself a favour and give it a listen!).

Sigh ... so many great unreleased songs to her name and Stevie still will not contribute to a new Fleetwood Mac album...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UurPDrrRe4

[MikeVielhaber]

SYW is definitely reminiscent of Tusk (Tusk is obviously a superior product, but both albums are experimental to varying degrees, both are double albums).


This was discussed on another music forum I frequent. I think there's a difference between a double album and a long single CD album. It has to do with the artist's intent. A single album and a double album are usually different in more than just length. They even went on and on about double vs. single in the documentary with single winning out (Lindsey being the only advocate for double). So I view SYW as a single album and Tusk a double even though SYW is (barely) longer, time wise.

[KarmaContestant]

I wish Fleetwood Mac had performed the entire SYW album when they toured in 2003.

They could have done some old hits for a four or six song encore.

Siouxsie just peformed at Yoko Ono's Meltdown in London, and she performed the Banshees entire third album, in the original tracklist order, took a break, then came out and did another 10 songs or so to satisfy the audience craving for 'hits'.

[secret love]

I wish Fleetwood Mac had performed the entire SYW album when they toured in 2003.

They could have done some old hits for a four or six song encore.

Siouxsie just peformed at Yoko Ono's Meltdown in London, and she performed the Banshees entire third album, in the original tracklist order, took a break, then came out and did another 10 songs or so to satisfy the audience craving for 'hits'.

That would have been awesome! Though when Fleetwood Mac can't even bring themselves to play all four songs on their EP live, it does seem unlikely that they would play more than the usual four to six songs live from any future full-length albums with accompanying tours.

I've read about other artists playing entire albums start to finish at their concerts - what I read said they normally play the non-album tracks first then shoot right into the album. The reverse of that as you described could work well too - guess it just depends on the artist/band as to how they arrange the setlist.

What's the general feeling amongst Ledgies regarding the likelihood of at least one final Fleetwood Mac album? Which band members (past and present) do we think will be involved? (These questions probably belong in a different thread)

Regarding the original poster's concern with SYW sales ten years after release, I reckon it would have achieved platinum status by now. Interesting how in 1979-1980 Tusk achieved double platinum status (possibly triple or quadruple platinum by now maybe) but was regarded as a commercial failure. I bet Lindsey, Mick, John and Stevie would be thrilled to achieve double platinum sales in today's climate!

How times change...

[redbird]

secret love,

Stevie might have said "Over my dead body" out loud but that doesn't mean part of her didn't wanted to be persuaded (and Lindsey would have to "prove to her" that it wouldn't be dark and miserable again). And I'm not the biggest expert on the topic but Lindsey's body language in the 5-member interview for the The Dance reunion (April 97?) kinda makes me think he was pretty sincerely interested. I'm sure it's covered in other threads though.

About the songs' sources: if Lindsey's songs come from solo projects, if Stevie's come from old demos, it doesn't really affect my appreciation of the album so long as the songs are well written, well produced, well performed, and hopefully hang together. Stevie writes in such a way that she can separate when she's writing specifically *for* Fleetwood Mac and when she's not. Christine never wrote that way, though, and maybe Lindsey's creative process can't strictly be fit into that model either.

For whatever reason I find the disparate decadence on Tusk more interesting than SYW, but as this goes to show, different strokes for different folks :)

[KarmaContestant]

That would have been awesome! Though when Fleetwood Mac can't even bring themselves to play all four songs on their EP live, it does seem unlikely that they would play more than the usual four to six songs live from any future full-length albums with accompanying tours.

I've read about other artists playing entire albums start to finish at their concerts - what I read said they normally play the non-album tracks first then shoot right into the album. The reverse of that as you described could work well too - guess it just depends on the artist/band as to how they arrange the setlist.


Yeah... Fleetwood Mac doing this type of thing is pretty unlikely to ever happen, but I think it's a great way to do a show when promoting a new album.

For SYW, it might have been harder to find room for fan favorites only because the album is already 18 tracks. But for the current tour? An entire album would be easy, and still leave enough room in the setlist for a dozen top-40 tracks. They could even mix it up - perform Mirage one night, and Rumours the next, and Tango the following show. Of course....without Christine, the magic of performing an entire album would be greatly diminished.

And I'm not sure Stevie can remember that many lyrics. :laugh:

[chiliD]

About the songs' sources: if Lindsey's songs come from solo projects, if Stevie's come from old demos, it doesn't really affect my appreciation of the album so long as the songs are well written, well produced, well performed, and hopefully hang together. Stevie writes in such a way that she can separate when she's writing specifically *for* Fleetwood Mac and when she's not. Christine never wrote that way, though, and maybe Lindsey's creative process can't strictly be fit into that model either.


My biggest criticism of SYW (ok, besides the fact that there are a couple of Stevie's tunes I just cannot stand) is that Lindsey was seemingly really lazy (or just downright uncreative) about his guitar parts. "Destiny Rules", "Peacekeeper", "Thrown Down", "Miranda" & "Murrow..." all start with eerily similar sounding guitar parts that it takes me a few seconds to name which song it is. It's as if his creativity just got caught in a rut like a car tire on a snow-covered country road's shoulder.

I do have a personal version of SYW I put on my own iPod, but it's not perfect either so I don't imagine I could do sooo much better.

I did that with Tusk...as well as Say You Will...and since most of Lindsey's tunes were nicked (no pun intended) from the aborted original GOS album, I did the same thing...replaced a couple of his SYW songs with songs from the original GOS I felt flowed better (and sounded more "Fleetwood Mac-ish", that he later officially released on solo album(s)...also did a similar thing with one of Stevie's tunes, too).

Here's how it came out:

Say You Will
Bleed To Love Her
Thrown Down (used the "Wall Of Sound" version...or "TISL version" whichever you want to call it...it just SOUNDS more "Fleetwood Mac" to my ears...plus it gets rid of one of those cloned sounding guitar intros)
Try For The Sun (yeah, it's a cover, but the lyrical content seems to pretty much nail the whole "Lindsey & Stevie" thing than "Red Rover")
Destiny Rules
What's The World Coming To?
Illume
Murrow Turning Over In His Grave
Peacekeeper (would've preferred the solo Lindsey version, which is a bit faster, but the SYW version has Stevie's voice which makes it more "Mac")
Everybody Finds Out
Miranda
Smile At You
Steal Your Heart Away
Not Make Believe
Down On Rodeo (with Mick & John on this track, why it didn't make the album to begin with is just downright a head-scratcher...maybe the victim of the "no we're not making a double CD"). Could've almost ended the album with it, but with 2 "Goodbye" songs to choose from, I just couldn't put it last.
Goodbye Baby

[UndoingTheLaces]

...if this is the story of Fleetwood Mac since the The Dance reunion, all the songs I'd keep of hers are either about Lindsey to some extent or about herself in the context of relationships, while Lindsey's got songs about the news media and politics and whatnot.

I think it would have been great to have the continuing saga of Stevie and Lindsey played out almost in tribute to Rumors since they specifically steered clear of making a Rumors II, as Lindsey often puts it, and Stevie did a great job of playing that up for Say You Will. She knew the fans would eat it up and we do. The idea that there's an alternate universe where Buckingham & Nicks are a couple and have put the past aside is very appealing. But I'm sure it's hard enough for his wife and children to see all the press about their decades old relationship in the media all the time, can you imagine what it would be like for him to be writing love songs to her now?

Although I must admit there's a really tragic element in Thrown Down even though it's a relatively happy sounding song. The fact that she wrote it during the Dance tour and it has this sort of feeling that maybe there's still a chance. Then he gets married and has some kids and it's like "so... there's this song I wrote... and it's not about you... but it's about this... guy... who I used to date and have a band with and moved to LA with and did a lot of cocaine and sex with... and it's about how we're in love again after many years and how it could finally work out for us... but it's not you."

[michelej1]

Although I must admit there's a really tragic element in Thrown Down even though it's a relatively happy sounding song.

You think so? I don't think it's happy sounding at all. I think it's heart breaking. Any optimism it mentions is in the past tense, like looking through a rearview window. Well, I thought it might work out . . . but it didn't.

But it's beautiful. You've shaken my faith in everything else. It just says to me, "I still believe in you, despite everything" and that's just SOB.

Michele

[redbird]

Oh yeah I don't expect Lindsey to really air his side of whatever went on around The Dance particularly loudly (although with three songs on Extended Play that seem to be all about Stevie ... :laugh:), just saying, my idea of a concept to build a shorter version of SYW around isn't strictly cohesive either.

I think they're used to the weirdness of going into the studio and getting acquainted with each other's songs for the first time and how coincidentally familiar those stories sound, although probably it's still something of a trip every time.

"Thrown Down" is a pretty emotionally tough song, yes, all Stevie's songs that have to do with her relationship with faith and hopefulness and believing always get to me a bit.

[UndoingTheLaces]

You think so? I don't think it's happy sounding at all. I think it's heart breaking. Any optimism it mentions is in the past tense, like looking through a rearview window. Well, I thought it might work out . . . but it didn't.

But it's beautiful. You've shaken my faith in everything else. It just says to me, "I still believe in you, despite everything" and that's just SOB.

Michele

It's got some really sweet moments. Like "He held her hands, she listened to what he had to say" and "Maybe now he could prove to her that he could be good for her and they should be together". Lots of songs are written in the past tense. That doesn't mean that the feeling of the song is over. We know it's over because of what we know about them in real life but in the context of the song it could be interpreted to mean that after many years they finally found peace with each other. And the last line about how he'd never told her how hard it was without her sort of leads you to believe that he's telling her that now. I guess everyone can have different interpretations of it.

[BlueLight]

I've struggled to compile a good, pared down track listing for SYW for quite some time. Here's my current, still imperfect 11-track list:

Say You Will (Single Remix Cold Edit)
Miranda
Thrown Down
Red Rover
Running Through The Garden
Peacekeeper
Smile At You
Bleed To Love Her
Destiny Rules
Steal Your Heart Away
Goodbye Baby

[StevieNicksfann]

I still love the album but the running order for me changes depending on mood. The one thing I consistently feel, however, is that Not Make Believe should have made the regular version of the album. In fact, I think it would have been a great single.

Thrown Down
Miranda
Running Through The Garden
Steal Your Heart Away
Destiny Rules
Say You Will
Bleed To Love Her
Not Make Believe
Say Goodbye
Smile At You
Everybody Finds Out
What's The World Coming To?
Silver Girl
Peacekeeper
Goodbye Baby

Illume is the only Stevie song that although I like, I can't seem to fit in sequence that makes sense to me.

Singles to me would have been:

Thrown Down
Miranda
Say You Will (I think would have been stronger if it preceded Peacekeeper which should never have been a single in its current form or at the very least should not have led off the album in singles)
Bleed To Love Her
Running Through The Garden
Steal Your Heart Away
Not Make Believe
Goodbye Baby

I could also see potentially Peacekeeper, Destiny Rules, Everybody Finds Out, and What's The World Coming To? as singles if they had remixing.

[secondhandchain]

ugh Running through the Garden is terrible and Murrow is not single material. I agree about Everybody finds out.

[Macfanforever]

I have to say SYW done great with excellent radio airplay then.

[BlueLight]

I love every song on the album, including bonus tracks - - with the exception of Come and Silver Girl. It just has never quite gelled for me as a cohesive album. I continue to hope that the 4 omitted tracks will surface one day (bonus tracks for the band's new album!?), although I'm not holding my breath.

[Tusky]

Here's my imperfect tracklisting (with Christine's songs)...

Right Place To Fade
Sorcerer
Northern Star
Planets Of The Universe
Red Rover
Temporary One
Fall From Grace
Friend
Steal Your Heart Away
Everybody Finds Out
Down On Rodeo
You Are
Thrown Down
Someone's Gotta Change Your Mind

[BlueLight]

Here's my imperfect tracklisting (with Christine's songs)...

Right Place To Fade
Sorcerer
Northern Star
Planets Of The Universe
Red Rover
Temporary One
Fall From Grace
Friend
Steal Your Heart Away
Everybody Finds Out
Down On Rodeo
You Are
Thrown Down
Someone's Gotta Change Your Mind

I like it! "Right Place To Fade" would have been a fantastic Fleetwood Mac song.

[Tusky]

Thanks! It's not mid-tempo either, so makes a good opener (RockawayBlind gave me the idea!).

[Kubrick2788]

When I put this on in the car it's a 14 track album instead of 18. I dropped Murrow, Steal Your Heart Away, Illume, Running Through the Garden, and Silver Girl. Popped Not Make Believe in to get them even. It runs like this:

WTWCT
Say You Will
BTLH
Red Rover
Not Make Believe
Peacekeeper
Come
Everybody Finds Out
Destiny Rules
Miranda
Thrown Down
Smile At You
Say Goodbye
Goodbye Baby

This way they each get to dominate a half of the record. For me it works better than the original. Goes by pretty quick.

[Tusky]

Love that!

[SpyNote]

Christine offered a lot of temperance between the quirky and mystical of Lindsey and Stevie, respectively; temperance that is missing from SYW.

You hit it on the nail. SYW is one hot mess! :] But there are some strong tracks on it. I would have released it like this and put the rest of the songs on the limited edition disc.


What's the World Coming To
Say You Will
Peacekeeper
Thrown Down
Steal Your Heart Away
Miranda
Destiny Rules
Bleed to Love Her
Everybody Finds Out
Say Goodbye
Goodbye Baby

[MikeVielhaber]

You hit it on the nail. SYW is one hot mess! :] But there are some strong tracks on it. I would have released it like this and put the rest of the songs on the limited edition disc.


What's the World Coming To
Say You Will
Peacekeeper
Thrown Down
Steal Your Heart Away
Miranda
Destiny Rules
Bleed to Love Her
Everybody Finds Out
Say Goodbye
Goodbye Baby

I'm sure Stevie and Lindsey would have to make it an even number of tracks to give each the same amount of songs. That's what happened on the released album, so I'm sure whatever alternate configuration they came up with would've been like that as well.

[SpyNote]

I'm sure Stevie and Lindsey would have to make it an even number of tracks to give each the same amount of songs. That's what happened on the released album, so I'm sure whatever alternate configuration they came up with would've been like that as well.

That's probably true. I just don't think any other song, besides the 11 listed, go together. The others definitely belong on solo projects. As much as I love "Running Through the Garden," it never evolved from the new wave trappings of Rock a Little.

[shackin'up]

Right Place To Fade
Destiny Rules
Thrown Down
Bleed To Love Her
Wait for You
Everybody Finds Out
Say You Will
Gift Of Screws
Not Make Believe
Miranda
Smile At You
Someone's Gonna Change Your Mind
Peacekeeper
Goodbye Baby

Don't know about the Running Order, but I chose to pick other selections from Lindsey's original GOS. Ofcourse some of them would have been opened up for Stevie's voice. Although I love red rover, murrow, and come, that are typical LB soloefforts. I'm not a fan of rodeo. This way, the album would have had more uptempo partitions.

[Keith]

Where ever Fleetwood Mac is with this possible new album, I hope they utilize one of the band’s biggest strengths - the vocals of the band members. A highlight for me of “Say You Will” is how, throughout the record, there are some great moments of Stevie and Lindsey harmonizing and/or singing on each other’s songs - Steal Her Heart Away, Peacekeeper**, What’s the World Coming To, Thrown Down, Smile at You are my favorites - I hope we hear the three harmonize and sing on each other’s songs throughout the new record. Man, “Tusk” would have been much better if there was more singing from the three.

On its release date, I listened to "Say You Will" twice from front to back, then made two play lists which has pretty much been the way I listen to these songs..

So with 10 new Stevie Nicks songs, of course I had to make a “Stevie only” version..

Say You Will
Thrown Down
Destiny Rules
Not Make Believe
Illume
Running Through the Garden
Everybody Finds Out
Smile at You
Silver Girl
Say Goodbye

I listen to it sometimes - it would be in the bottom tier of my favorite Stevie albums - but I mainly listen to my FM play list when I want some “Say You Will.”

So let’s say I worked for a record company and I was asked to take these SYW tracks and make an album with 12 tracks and market it to the masses. No more than 12 tracks because they also wanted to issue it on vinyl as a single disc.

And this is how the album would play out (very similar to how Daniel would sequence the record)..

What’s The World’s Coming To
Say You Will
Peacekeeper
Thrown Down
Bleed to Love Her
Not Make Believe
Miranda
Destiny Rules
Steal Your Heart Away
Everybody Finds Out
Smile At You
Say Goodbye

Two songs I kept going back and forth on were Red Rover and Illume, but I couldn’t make them fit into the SYW puzzle and also didn’t want to replace any other track with one of them. Really like both songs, though. I would have included all the rest of the tracks as part of extras in the deluxe version making it more attractive to hardcore fans.

I had forgotten how badly SYW was sequenced - great songs, but no cohesion, and way too long. I would have went with my 12 tracks with a name change to “Gone to the Moon” - SYW is Fleetwood Mac’s worst album title. And, I would keep the cover art. Me like.

Just finished watching the news.. “What’s the world coming to.. what’s the world coming to? Everyone’s gone to the moon..”

[Kubrick2788]

I was thinking about this when I posted the way I rearranged the tracks and I couldn't think of a line from a song or some other word/phrase that could title the album. I think Say You Will works in a couple ways and easily fits in with the previous album titles. Maybe it was a compromise like so many other things. A line or the title from Say Goodbye might have been good. Though I'm sure they'd be loathe to make such a foreboding statement.