Rolling Stone: Stevie Nicks Sees Women's Rights Slipping

[bluecalmsea]

Opinionated comments section! http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/stevie-nicks-sees-womens-rights-slipping-and-i-hate-it-20130315

http://i.imgur.com/5Udj0Td.jpg

Dan Rys
March 15, 2013 10:55 AM ET
"The true rock legends truly changed the game," said NPR's Ann Powers by way of introduction Thursday at SXSW Music. "Stevie Nicks definitely changed the game."

Powers conducted a Q&A with the very busy Fleetwood Mac singer – in addition to performing with Dave Grohl's Sound City Players at SXSW, she has a new tour and is set to release a new solo album. The talk ran down the story of Nicks and Lindsey Buckingham joining Fleetwood Mac, her regimen for keeping her voice in shape even at the age of 64 and her myriad performing influences. But it opened and closed with a discussion about feminism – not only in the largely male-dominated world of rock & roll, but in society today.

"We fought very hard for feminism, for women's rights," Nicks said in response to a question from the crowd. "What I'm seeing today is a very opposite thing. I don't know why, but I see women being put back in their place. And I hate it. We're losing all we worked so hard for, and it really bums me out."

Nicks and bandmate Christine McVie were strong female figures in an industry where many male musicians were hero-worshipped by fans across the world, and Nicks said they worked to change the perception of women within the rock & roll circles of the Seventies. "I said to Chris, we can never be treated like second-class citizens," she explained. "When we walk into a room we have to float in like goddesses, because that's how we wanted to be treated. We demanded that from the beginning."

Nicks also recalled her days in San Francisco in the late Sixties and early Seventies, when she and Buckingham opened for headliners from Janis Joplin to Jimi Hendrix. "Flamboyance and attitude from Janis, humbleness and grace from Hendrix, and a little bit of slinky from Grace Slick," she said. "Those were the three people who I emulated when I was on stage."

And while it's been more than 30 years since she took up her place in Fleetwood Mac, her voice – bolstered by a vocal coach she has worked with since 1997 – isn't letting her down yet. "Opera singers sing into their 80s," she said. "I don't plan to be doing [hundreds] of shows when I'm 85, but I do plan to still be out there singing when I'm a seriously older woman."

[FierySequences]

Op

Powers conducted a Q&A with the very busy Fleetwood Mac singer – in addition to performing with Dave Grohl's Sound City Players at SXSW, she has a new tour and is set to release a new solo album. ."

this is nice, thx for posting!

Is this a misprint or is this the "tribute" album SN referred to shortly after her mom's death?

Could this be the reason Stevie doesn't want a new FM album out now?

[elle]

what a crock of sh*t.

putting down every other woman especially from the current generation, while putting herself on a pedestal of fighting for women's rights?? pleeeeeease. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[FierySequences]

******************

[elle]

******************

yeah i think the reporter got it confused with IYD movie, as i said in the SXSW thread where i first posted that RS article.

[bombaysaffires]

as a feminist, I am choosing to make a more frivolous comment-- Mama needs a trim.

[HejiraNYC]

what a crock of sh*t.

putting down every other woman especially from the current generation, while putting herself on a pedestal of fighting for women's rights?? pleeeeeease. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Your decidedly strange fascination (that you will never admit) with Stevie aside, why do you feel such venom for a woman who speaks her mind? And how, exactly, is she "putting herself on a pedestal" for simply voicing an opinion (that I happen to agree with). And it doesn't negate the fact that, yes, in a number of ways, Stevie blazed a trail for women in rock music. She was a female singer/songwriter and co-leader of a rock and roll band at a time when women in music were, for the most part, given songs to sing and told to fall in line behind their male songwriters, producers and musicians. Stevie was part of a small elite group of female musicians (Joni Mitchell, Carly Simon, Grace Slick, Ann/Nancy Wilson, etc.) who actually had independence and clout in a man's world. And it seems that Stevie was singular in her ability to be a strong woman who did not give into the peer pressure to display stereotypically masculine mannerisms, e.g., Joan Jett. IF Stevie wanted to put herself on a pedestal as a pioneer as a woman in rock and roll, she has certainly earned that right.

[MikeInNV]

what a crock of sh*t.

putting down every other woman especially from the current generation, while putting herself on a pedestal of fighting for women's rights?? pleeeeeease. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I guess when you hate someone, you'll interpret their words in the worst possible light. I didn't see her putting herself on a pedestal just because she said she and Chris had to fight for their place; I've heard the same thing from the Wilson sisters and other female rockers from that era. I also definitely didn't hear her put down "every other woman." If anything, the comment about "women being put back" is a slam against the current industry's men.

[elle]

lol. i was waiting for all these reactions from the guys.

wonder how Christine McVie feels if she ever reads any of these statements from Ms Nicks.

[redbird]

Stevie isn't putting herself on a pedestal above other women, she is saying that the industry is taking advantage of women and not giving them the rights that she and others like her fought for in their generation.

In Stevie's generation, all women had to be fighters, why Stevie shouldn't count as one of them is beyond me (it's not like she said "I fought, and I was the only one", she said "WE fought"). She has always included Christine McVie as her ally in this fight.

[elle]

Stevie isn't putting herself on a pedestal above other women, she is saying that the industry is taking advantage of women and not giving them the rights that she and others like her fought for in their generation.

tell me, how did she fight for those rights? i would like to understand what everybody is talking about when they say that. what i always see is just Ms Nicks saying about herself how she's a trailblazer for women everywhere, and then some people just repeating her words, same as several guys already did in this thread.

her exact quote about how she did it from this interview is "Nicks said they worked to change the perception of women within the rock & roll circles of the Seventies. "I said to Chris, we can never be treated like second-class citizens," she explained. "When we walk into a room we have to float in like goddesses, because that's how we wanted to be treated. We demanded that from the beginning."

you need to float like a goddess so you can get your rights? what?? sorry, i think i can have my rights without having to float. i like to stomp.

[johnnystorms]

lol. i was waiting for all these reactions from the guys.

wonder how Christine McVie feels if she ever reads any of these statements from Ms Nicks.

so you PURPOSELY try to antagonize Stevie fans to "wait" for our reactions? what fun!!!

[elle]

so you PURPOSELY try to antagonize Stevie fans to "wait" for our reactions? what fun!!!

actually, although i'm mostly here for fun, this is one issue i feel very strongly about.

people calling themselves trailblazers on a particular issue if they are not belittle others who are.

[johnnystorms]

actually, although i'm mostly here for fun, this is one issue i feel very strongly about.

people calling themselves trailblazers on a particular issue if they are not belittle others who are.

how is she NOT a "trailblazer"? how many other women were so prominent in rock bands in her era?

[redbird]

tell me, how did she fight for those rights? i would like to understand what everybody is talking about when they say that. what i always see is just Ms Nicks saying about herself how she's a trailblazer for women everywhere, and then some people just repeating her words, same as several guys already did in this thread.

her exact quote about how she did it from this interview is "Nicks said they worked to change the perception of women within the rock & roll circles of the Seventies. "I said to Chris, we can never be treated like second-class citizens," she explained. "When we walk into a room we have to float in like goddesses, because that's how we wanted to be treated. We demanded that from the beginning."

you need to float like a goddess so you can get your rights? what?? sorry, i think i can have my rights without having to float. i like to stomp.

Then you stomp, you do your thing, like floating like a goddess is her thing. I don't get the distinction you're trying to make here at all. Do you think she'd tell you that you're doing it wrong? Or ... I don't understand what your concrete point is here. Do you think she's saying that women have to wear chiffon and capes in order to be strong fighters?

Rock'n'roll is an industry full of huge egos. You need to make sure your ego is given as wide a berth as anyone else's to make it clear that you won't accept being treated like a doormat. I think it is pretty obvious that that's what "floating in like a goddess" refers to. If everyone else in the room is a smug arrogant asshat, then yeah, be a diva if that's what it takes. Why the hell not. Anyone who thinks that you can fight a demanding industry without being demanding in turn is naive.

What did she do? She was a visible part of a huge rock and roll band. She wrote many of its songs, including some of its best songs, she had a successful solo career motivated by a desire to fulfill her own personal artistic needs and career ambitions even if it upset the apple cart to some extent or other. She sang in a traditionally masculine connoted genre but did not erase her femininity even though feminine things (ie ballet, fairies, blah blah blah) are considered trivial and easily dismissed.

Why on earth do you begrudge her this? Does it lessen Lindsey or Christine or John or Mick? Is it wrong for her to recognize her impact? Stevie, Ann and Nancy Wilson, Pat Benetar, Joan Jett, Patti Smith, Tina and Janis and Joni and Grace, the number of women who have managed to earn their spot alongside the far more numerous male names that get mentioned in lists of great rock'n'rollers is few, that's just a fact. Stevie is among an elite group of women, if you ask people to name great women of rock'n'roll the list is not going to get much bigger. Check any Rolling Stone special or NME or what have you. Is that all a big hoax Stevie Nicks pulled on the world, to convince them she's the be all end all? She payed big bucks to steal the "Reigning queen of rock'n'roll" moniker from someone far worthier?

Do you really think that's what she's saying here?

What in this article gave rise to your comments? The part where she said "we"? The part were she acknowledged her own heroes like Janis? From that you get that Stevie Nicks considers herself the sole single trailblazer for women? What she said was that she had to fight. Along with other women that had to fight. And she finds it unfortunate that that fight did not result in permanent gains.

[Johnny Stew]

people calling themselves trailblazers on a particular issue if they are not belittle others who are.

Nowhere in those quotes, did Stevie refer to herself as a trailblazer. And what she did say, has been corroborated by other female artists of her era. They were not treated equally by the men running the business (Kim Carnes was even told once by a label president, that the record company "already had their female artist"), and often times they weren't even afforded equal treatment by their male peers.

So, yes, those ladies had to work to be respected. And as Ann & Nancy Wilson have said, they often had to work twice as hard as the men on stage to get that respect.

As far the "float like goddesses" comment -- that's Stevie speak for "hold our heads up high and exude confidence."

[elle]

What in this article gave rise to your comments?

first time i''ve heard of SN she was giving this statement how she was the first woman rocker in men's world, blazing the trail for all other women that came after her. (i'm paraphrasing, but that was the jest of it)

i though wow, i completely get and love what she's saying, i should look up this woman i've never heard of but who was apparently the first. so i did. and i looked up the years she was talking about. and felt she's belittling all these other women musicians and rock stars who came before her and at the same time as her. including Janis.

i guess everybody here knows and accepts that she rambles on and doesn't really think what she's saying every time, and that maybe she doesn't really mean it the way it comes out... but not everybody knows and understands that if they don't know much about her.

as for the pop music world now, maybe i'm wrong, but people like Gaga or Adele seem like pretty powerful and strong women, no?

[johnnystorms]

first time i''ve heard of SN she was giving this statement how she was the first woman rocker in men's world, blazing the trail for all other women that came after her. (i'm paraphrasing, but that was the jest of it)

i though wow, i completely get and love what she's saying, i should look up this woman i've never heard of but who was apparently the first. so i did. and i looked up the years she was talking about. and felt she's belittling all these other women musicians and rock stars who came before her and at the same time as her. including Janis.

i guess everybody here knows and accepts that she rambles on and doesn't really think what she's saying every time, and that maybe she doesn't really mean it the way it comes out... but not everybody knows and understands that if they don't know much about her.

as for the pop music world now, maybe i'm wrong, but people like Gaga or Adele seem like pretty powerful and strong women, no?

as a fan of BOTH Adele, and Gaga, they are NOT in Stevie's league. they rely HEAViLY on "co"-writers and TEAMS of producers.

[elle]

what she did say, has been corroborated by other female artists of her era. They were not treated equally by the men running the business (Kim Carnes was even told once by a label president, that the record company "already had their female artist"), and often times they weren't even afforded equal treatment by their male peers.

So, yes, those ladies had to work to be respected. And as Ann & Nancy Wilson have said, they often had to work twice as hard as the men on stage to get that respect.

i'm not arguing any of these points. we all probably saw that recent study that majority of people even now (and even women), when they are given exact same resume to consider for a job position, but one with man's name and other with woman's on the top of it, somehow conclude that man is more qualified.

[Johnny Stew]

i guess everybody here knows and accepts that she rambles on and doesn't really think what she's saying every time, and that maybe she doesn't really mean it the way it comes out... but not everybody knows and understands that if they don't know much about her.

as for the pop music world now, maybe i'm wrong, but people like Gaga or Adele seem like pretty powerful and strong women, no?

I've read hundreds of articles on Stevie over the past 28 years, and I don't recall her ever once implying that she was the first female rocker in a man's world. She's always included Chris, Ann, Nancy, Linda, et al, when talking about this subject.

In regards to Janis (and Stevie certainly gives her a lot of credit too), I think the reason she often isn't included with this particular group of women, is the fact that she presented herself in a more aggressive fashion (as was stated earlier in this thread about Joan Jett). She was very much "one of the guys," by all accounts.

i guess everybody here knows and accepts that she rambles on and doesn't really think what she's saying every time, and that maybe she doesn't really mean it the way it comes out... but not everybody knows and understands that if they don't know much about her.

Stevie speaks off the cuff, thankfully. No rehearsed responses or speeches. So, yeah, I'm sure there are times when things don't come out quite the way she meant them, but I prefer that. It's refreshing, and keeps things interesting when she's answering the same questions she's been asked for decades. It also shows us more of her human side.

If people who aren't as familiar with her don't get that, so be it.

[elle]

as a fan of BOTH Adele, and Gaga, they are NOT in Stevie's league. they rely HEAViLY on "co"-writers and TEAMS of producers.
you are going off topic. we are NOT discussing who we think is a better artist, what we are discussing is this:
"We fought very hard for feminism, for women's rights," Nicks said in response to a question from the crowd. "What I'm seeing today is a very opposite thing. I don't know why, but I see women being put back in their place. And I hate it. We're losing all we worked so hard for, and it really bums me out."
what i'm saying is that somehow i can't see someone like Gaga allowing anybody to "put her in her place".

[WildHearted]

you are going off topic. we are NOT discussing who we think is a better artist, what we are discussing is this:

what i'm saying is that somehow i can't see someone like Gaga allowing anybody to "put her in her place".

You are completely missing the point of her statement.

She is not taking a dig at the women of today - she's taking a dig at SOCIETY trying to put women "back in their place" after they've fought so hard to reach such heights and saying that she hates it. What you could possibly find wrong in that, or how you could possibly construe that as her belittling other women is completely beyond me, honestly.

[elle]

IIn regards to Janis (and Stevie certainly gives her a lot of credit too), I think the reason she often isn't included with this particular group of women, is the fact that she presented herself in a more aggressive fashion (as was stated earlier in this thread about Joan Jett). She was very much "one of the guys," by all accounts.
so they don't count because woman has to be gorgeous and attractive to men to get ahead? smells like sexism.

[Johnny Stew]

what i'm saying is that somehow i can't see someone like Gaga allowing anybody to "put her in her place".

But it's telling, no, that of all the women in the industry right now, we have to keep coming back to the examples of Lady Gaga and Adele. Truth is, comparatively there really aren't a lot of women currently on the charts who aren't manufactured by a team of male managers, male record company execs, male songwriters, etc.

Which is why Stevie champions women like Vanessa Carlton, Norah Jones, and Michelle Branch.

[elle]

she's taking a dig at SOCIETY trying to put women "back in their place"
aren't women part of the society too?

the way i read her statement is - today's women are allowing themselves to be "put in their place" (whatever that is lol?), while she was fighting against that.

[WildHearted]

aren't women part of the society too?

the way i read her statement is - today's women are allowing themselves to be "put in their place" (whatever that is lol?), while she was fighting against that.

Of course women are members of society, but society as a WHOLE is still a patriarchy.

Quite frankly, I think you read her statement wrong. And I don't think her statement was limited to the music industry - I also read that she mentioned that she was interested in getting involved in women's rights in a political fashion, too, although it is not quoted in this article.

[Johnny Stew]

so they don't count because woman has to be gorgeous and attractive to men to get ahead? smells like sexism.

No ma'am -- but the argument is that you shouldn't have to act like a guy to be respected by them. Stevie wanted to be allowed, and for other female rockers to be allowed, to still be pretty and feminine (if they so desired), while being afforded the same level of respect for their talents as the men.

[elle]

But it's telling, no, that of all the women in the industry right now, we have to keep coming back to the examples of Lady Gaga and Adele. Truth is, comparatively there really aren't a lot of women currently on the charts who aren't manufactured by a team of male managers, male record company execs, male songwriters, etc.

Which is why Stevie champions women like Vanessa Carlton, Norah Jones, and Michelle Branch.

didn't know she championed Norah Jones, interesting.

i may be easily wrong but she seems to publicly champion women who are on the top and don't really need a champion (Taylor Swift, Katy Perry, Reese Witherspoon come to mind), not anybody who's struggling (kick-her-why-she's-down Lindsey Lohan).

i think Lady Gaga is the opposite of Stevie Nicks. now there's a woman who was apparently told no and shown the door plenty of times because she was "not pretty enough" to succeed in the industry where looks are more important than talent.

[redbird]

Gaga and Adele both have their contributions to the cause of individuality, but I would contend that they're not really breaking new ground. Gaga seems to me to deal in the same stock-in-trade as Madonna (catchy songs + controversial image), and I think Adele herself has said something to the effect of "I'm a pop star, I'm not really doing anything new". I will try and look for the quote although I doubt I'll be able to find it.

I think women have generally had it easier in pop music than in rock music. But I don't know if Stevie is referring to success in a given genre or if she's talking about being taken advantage of by labels. I do think that a lot of record execs and the like are men, though, and that inevitably tilts things in a given direction.

Generally I think Stevie has a pretty pessimistic view of the business today, and I'm not sure I agree with all of it, but I'm also nowhere near the industry myself and I also don't think one can conclude that she's blaming or condemning female artists. She's disappointed not to see more push back than what she wants to see, but she can't be feeling bad for anyone but the female artists themselves since they are the ones suffering from it. I see her being friendly or complementary in some way or other with so many younger women, Beyonce, Sheryl Crow, Carly Rae Jepsen of all people. I think in the controversy with Nicki Minaj (for which she apologized for her comments twds Minaj) she said that she was coming from a place of protectiveness of Mariah Carey. I dunno, I actually can't think of another woman of her generation who connects so positively with as many younger women, to be honest. It's to the point where I was actually shocked that she was so cold towards Lindsay Lohan, it didn't seem like her MO.

And there's a huge difference between saying women have to be like one of the guys and women can't be like one of the guys. I think it's obvious which one is the issue here. Being like one of the guys helps women be taken more seriously, which is wrong. That doesn't make it wrong for a woman to be like one of the guys. That shouldn't need spelling out.

[Johnny Stew]

didn't know she championed Norah Jones, interesting.

i may be easily wrong but she seems to publicly champion women who are on the top and don't really need a champion (Taylor Swift, Katy Perry, Reese Witherspoon come to mind), not anybody who's struggling (kick-her-why-she's-down Lindsey Lohan).

Stevie's almost always supported up & coming female artists, like Louise Goffin, Sandy Stewart and Marilyn Martin. But I'm sure that, in a lot of cases, she doesn't really get to know some of these women (like Norah Jones) until they've already gotten their foot at least partially in the door (she wouldn't really have much of an opportunity to be introduced to them prior to that).

But I really can't think of many artists for whom the notion of "Girl Power" is as important as it seems to be to Stevie. Rather than treat them like "the competition," she praises other female artists and embraces them.

i think Lady Gaga is the opposite of Stevie Nicks. now there's a woman who was apparently told no and shown the door plenty of times because she was "not pretty enough" to succeed in the industry where looks are more important than talent.

A fact which actually strengthens Stevie's point -- in the 2000s, after all the inroads made during the '70s & '80s, female artists are still being told they're "not pretty enough," instead of being signed on the merit of their talents.

[elle]

I do think that a lot of record execs and the like are men, though, and that inevitably tilts things in a given direction.
there's a job for Stevie then if she wants to fight for women's rights - take over some of those industry positions from men and make it better. she's powerful, has experience in business, money, connections, visibility, why not if that's what she cares about?

Being like one of the guys helps women be taken more seriously.
do you really think that? i haven't really encountered that but maybe i'm just oblivious or don't care for such propositions.

[WildHearted]

do you really think that? i haven't really encountered that but maybe i'm just oblivious or don't care for such propositions.

You really have never experienced this, as a woman? It's sadly but definitely true.

[elle]

i'm not really sure why is everybody trying to argue there's still inequality today. that is not in the question, we all agree on this (and i'm glad we do!).

[elle]

and again:

we all probably saw that recent study that majority of people even now (and even women), when they are given exact same resume to consider for a job position, but one with man's name and other with woman's on the top of it, somehow conclude that man is more qualified.

[redbird]

do you really think that? i haven't really encountered that but maybe i'm just oblivious or don't care for such propositions.

Different situations screw women over in different ways.

I was a STEM person until very recently deciding to change my career. I took tons of science and math classes and the older I got the fewer women there were with me in those classes. I took chess classes as a kid and I was one of very few girls there. I dropped out of computer classes because I got tired of feeling like there was some game being played with how femininely or masculinely I chose to present myself. In those situations, something like wearing pink or liking a Disney princess, or when I got older, daring to wear a miniskirt could make me be seen as less serious, for sure. My mother told me she was often told how she could and could not wear her hair at work because it was naturally curly and thus too sexy for her to be viewed as professional.

You could just as easily find a woman who had difficulties because she was not feminine enough. She might get made fun of as undateable, she might get told she can't be a ballerina, she might get ostracized for her looks by idiot youtube commenters. None of it is right and none of it is fair, but all of it exists, unfortunately.

Stevie was sexy enough to be wanted for her marketability. She was also sexy enough to get dismissed as an insignificant contributor. It's a double bind, you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't. In rock and roll, being a sexy woman could get you success as, what, a groupie? Just because you're beautiful and sell records doesn't mean men will like it any more when you tell them "THIS is when I want to wear that dress, not THEN" or "I will record THIS song, not THAT one" or, you know, "You wouldn't say that to Bob Dylan."

[johnnystorms]

probably best to ignore elle's posts. clearly only here to stir the pot.

[elle]

Different situations screw women over in different ways.
true about different situations.

Stevie was sexy enough to be wanted for her marketability. She was also sexy enough to get dismissed as an insignificant contributor. It's a double bind, you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.
i don't think anybody could dismiss someone like Chrissie Hynde as insignificant contributor. and i don't think Christine McVie was considered significant contributor because she was not sexy enough to be dismissed. ;)

[elle]

probably best to ignore elle's posts. clearly only here to stir the pot.

that is very disrespectful and dismissive (hey, are you dismissing me and my points because i'm a woman? ;) lol).

we are having a discussion about women's issues some of us care about. if you don't, feel free to stay out of it.

[redbird]

i don't think anybody could dismiss someone like Chrissie Hynde as insignificant contributor. and i don't think Christine McVie was considered significant contributor because she was not sexy enough to be dismissed. ;)
Chrissie Hynde was the leader of her band, the dynamics are not straightforwardly comparable to Fleetwood Mac; nor can I recall her image being as feminine as Stevie's. But in any case just because some women are luckier doesn't mean it doesn't happen. As for your latter statement you know very well that's a total non-starter. "Because Stevie Nicks was sexy, she was not always seen as a significant contributor" cannot by any logic convert to "Anyone who is seen as a significant contributor is seen as such because they are not sexy", much less "Anyone who is a significant contributor is such because they are not sexy." That's logical gymnastics. Christine McVie was seen as a significant contributor because that's exactly what she was. If she was not similarly dismissed as Stevie, we can point to Stevie's bouncier personality, her ultra feminine couture, her "confessional" lyrics, her dependency on others to provide instrumentation, as things that are all coded as more "feminine" experiences by society. I'm not going to sit and debate about what's sexy or not to me as a person, I think I've been on the level and it's transparent that what I'm talking about is what sells as sexy in the MTV era.

[windbecame]

:xoxo::xoxo:i'm not really sure why is everybody trying to argue there's still inequality today. that is not in the question, we all agree on this (and i'm glad we do!).

again.... Janet Jackson!! you run that board nobody comments on LOL.... why on EARTH are you on Stevie's page?????:shrug: you don't even like her???? :xoxo: :sorry: but not really.....so i guess. "that''s the way love goes" :blob2:

[LittleSpacey]

:xoxo::xoxo:

again.... Janet Jackson!! you run that board nobody comments on LOL.... why on EARTH are you on Stevie's page?????:shrug: you don't even like her???? :xoxo: :sorry: but not really.....so i guess. "that''s the way love goes" :blob2:

Yes, yes, and YES!

[DashingDan]

Put on your shawl and LEAN IN!

[BrownEyedGirl26]

lol. i was waiting for all these reactions from the guys.

wonder how Christine McVie feels if she ever reads any of these statements from Ms Nicks.

Elle, haven't you heard the phrase, "If you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all"?:shrug:Better still, just stay on the Lindsey section then we won't have to read all of your negativity day after day!:rolleyes:

[cliffdweller]

"Float in like goddesses." I love this statement, and it couldn't be more accurate. Stevie may not have been the first female rocker, but she was definitely one of the first for MY generation to really make a statement about women in rock. I looked up to her, Ann and Nancy Wilson, Pat Benetar, Cyndi Lauper, etc. I was a child of the 80's and these women were goddesses. And Stevie, to me, was the most unique of all, in fact, I think she's pretty unique for any era. And that voice. There's nothing in the world like it.

[Johnny Stew]

i'm not really sure why is everybody trying to argue there's still inequality today. that is not in the question, we all agree on this (and i'm glad we do!).

I don't agree whatsoever with those who are making this personal and attacking you individually, but I've read this thread again and I'm still not sure exactly what is "in question."

[rhiannondontgo]

It amazes me that anyone could ever say that Stevie Nicks is not a trailblazer for women. Stevie is absolutely a feminist icon. This is a woman who chose a career over a family or a husband. A woman who admits to having had abortions. A woman who is straight up about how many men have screwed her over, and admits to every last discrepancy and affair and addiction, and openly says she doesn't mind giving up romance or marriage or companionship for her job. How many people can say that unabashedly? And in addition to that, she didn't play the "girl singer role" women so often took on in those days. She partied as hard as the men did. She did just as many drugs. She had just as much sex. She was never a housewife type of woman and she never claimed to be. I'm not saying all of her choices were right, but she definitely paved the way for a lot of other female musicians to come into their own. She's a beautiful, sexy woman who dresses up in lace and velvet and chiffon and platforms, but is taken seriously by every man in the business. She earned that. She never sacrificed her femininity and confidence to be treated like a serious musician. She proved herself to be treated that way. C'mon guys, we all know the rest of the band is incredibly talented, some of which perhaps even moreso than Stevie. But Stevie Nicks is what made FM mainstream. Rhiannon was their very first hit, Dreams was their only #1 song, she's the only one of them to have a very successful solo career and be so totally well-known. And that's amazing for the woman who started off not even wanted in the band, and then was being considered as the 'little sister' of the band. For so long she was thought of as second class due to her sex, and probably due to her beauty and femininity and glamour. As mentioned, people like Janis were taken more seriously because in addition to the talent she undoubtedly had, she wasn't much one for glitz and rhinestones and girliness. And that made her 'one of the guys', and she was taken seriously. Stevie wasn't always. Reminds me of this interview:

High Times: What about [a relationship with] someone like Don Henley, who knows [what your lifestyle is like]? He's in the same position.

SN: When I was going out with Don, it was five years ago and I was much less busy. Fleetwood Mac was much less popular, we were just beginning. When I was with Lindsey, we lived together and were famous. It was the opposite extreme. I'll never forget the day I was up at Don's house having dinner with him and his manager, Irving Azoff, who is now my manager five years later, and Glenn Frey of the Eagles walked in and looked at me and said, "Spoiled yet," like no mention of Fleetwood Mac. I was not even in the league of a singer. I was nothing more than a girl. My claws went out and I wanted to get out of there.

High Times: I don't know him well, but that sounds typical of Glenn Frey.

SN: He's witchy! And I love Glenn and that was a long time ago. That was my first taste of what it was like to be a happening girl rock 'n roll singer and have people not relate to me like I even had a job. I went out with John David Souther for a while, who is cute and wonderful but very Texas and I found when I was with him, I didn't mention Fleetwood Mac ever. It didn't help my status with the man to bring up anything I did, so I didn't. And then you start saying, "But I work too. I'm happening. I write songs, but you aren't giving me a break."



I'm not saying Stevie was the only one who paved the way, she obviously was not. Janis and Grace Slick started it before her. Linda and Ann and Nancy were doing it at the same time that she was. People like Madonna and Cyndi Lauper continued after her. Some women don't even get much recognition for their trailblazing actions. Did you all know Cher was the first woman to show her belly button on tv, and was criticized for it by the public? Did you know the press and country fans everywhere slandered Dolly Parton in the late 70s for talking about her sexual experiences in her teenage years during an interview? Or that in 1968, long before country was ever female-friendly, she released a single called Just Because I'm a Woman, about how hypocritical it is for men to judge women on past sexual discrepancies, or whether they drink or smoke or whatever, when they all are guilty of the same? Or that Debbie Harry, who started her career as a playboy bunny (!) and was considered one of the most beautiful women in the world, actually preached equality and anti-racism all throughout her career, is credited with making rap mainstream, actually named her band after the cat-calls from men in cars who would yell "hey blondie!" out at her and whistle; in an attempt to re-claim the rude nickname, and that she openly admits to her plastic surgery, sexual experiences with women, and past drug addictions?
There have been hundreds of female public figures who have together paved the way for girls of today, and it's preposterous to stay Stevie isn't one of them. Maybe some have accomplished more than others, or should be considered bigger trailblazers. But no matter where you rank her, she is on that list.

[Aussie W/Heart]

Love this post:thumbsup:

[michelej1]

Still a goddess: Stevie Nicks delivers elegant, empowering words at SXSW

Austin Culture Map
http://austin.culturemap.com/newsdetail/03-16-13-still-a-goddess-stevie-nicks-delivers-elegant-empowering-words-at-sxsw/

03.16.13 | 03:40 pm
At 64 years old, Stevie Nicks is a steadfast embodiment of the rock goddess persona that developed almost overnight in 1975, a living example that female empowerment still has a leg to stand on.

Preparing for a spring tour with Fleetwood Mac and releasing documentary In Your Dreams (which chronicles the creation of her 2011 album of the same title), Nicks sat down for an intimate interview with NPR’s Ann Powers as part of the SXSW Music programming.

What began as the linear talk of an unparalleled career manifested into a magical hour where stardom wasn’t the theme. She spoke candidly about her rise to fame, but it was Nicks’ balance of elegance and empowerment that took center stage.

After explaining how she and partner Lindsey Buckingham rose to fame with Fleetwood Mac (the two joined in January 1975 and “together were a millionaire” by October), Nicks spoke of the gender equality she fought for early in her career. From the onset, Nicks insisted that she and Christine McVie, her Fleetwood Mac counterpart, be treated as equals, not dismissed due to frail figures or softer voices.

“We have to walk in with a big attitude,” Nicks recalled. “We have to flow in like goddesses.”

This dichotomy of attitude and goddess is a continuous theme in Nicks’ career, the physical manifestation of which can be seen each time she performs. Nicks called her onstage persona an amalgamation of three rock and roll greats: Janis Joplin, Jimi Hendrix and Grace Slick (Jefferson Airplane).

From Joplin, she adopted the rock and roll attitude. “When she walked on that stage, she was a knockout and she was a hard rock singer and she could hold that audience in her hand.” From Hendrix, it was softness. “He was the opposite of Janis.” He was “super humble” and “super graceful.”

“I got a little bit of slinky from Grace Slick,” she continued. “I try to be as elegant as I can," she said, noting that the "masculine side comes through also.” “You try to find a nice way to blend them all.”

That blend translates to the celebrated solo career that Nicks has balanced since the release of 1981’s Bella Donna. The process of creating solo work has been a necessary “vehicle,” for Nicks, a way to produce the “trunk full of songs” she’s carried around since 1973, without leaving Fleetwood Mac behind.

“I love my band. I would never break up Fleetwood Mac ever,” she said. “I just take the time in between — I just take their vacations [to do solo albums].”

As a solo artist and member of one of the most influential bands of all time, Nicks has written and performed some of rock’s most identifiable songs (“Landslide,” “Rhiannon,” “Edge of Seventeen”). “I live for those moments,” she said of fans identifying with her stories.

“It’s something that I feel it’s my job, it’s my duty to actually share that with all of you guys,” she said. “I want to be a teacher.”

Perhaps Nicks’ most poignant teaching moment at SXSW came at the end of her scheduled appearance when a young audience member asked for the singer’s opinion about the current role of women in society.

“I see women being put really back in their place. And I hate it,” Nicks said. “We’re losing what we fought so hard for.”

“I feel that women aren’t getting much support now,” Nicks continued, questioning what’s causing modern women to “back off."

Her final thought on the matter was delivered in terse, empowering rock goddess form. "All I can say to that question is don’t.”

[olive]

"Flamboyance and attitude from Janis, " ???????????

This has always annoyed me , Janis was wild on stage and wore Color!! Steve stays in a 2 foot perimeter of her mic stand and has worn the same Black shmatte for year , with not much variation

[FierySequences]

It
I'm not saying Stevie was the only one who paved the way, she obviously was not. Janis and Grace Slick started it before her. Linda and Ann and Nancy were doing it at the same time that she was. People like Madonna and Cyndi Lauper continued after her. Some women don't even get much recognition for their trailblazing actions. Did you all know Cher was the first woman to show her belly button on tv, and was criticized for it by the public? Did you know the press and country fans everywhere slandered Dolly Parton in the late 70s for talking about her sexual experiences in her teenage years during an interview? Or that in 1968, long before country was ever female-friendly, she released a single called Just Because I'm a Woman, about how hypocritical it is for men to judge women on past sexual discrepancies, or whether they drink or smoke or whatever, when they all are guilty of the same? Or that Debbie Harry, who started her career as a playboy bunny (!) and was considered one of the most beautiful women in the world, actually preached equality and anti-racism all throughout her career, is credited with making rap mainstream, actually named her band after the cat-calls from men in cars who would yell "hey blondie!" out at her and whistle; in an attempt to re-claim the rude nickname, and that she openly admits to her plastic surgery, sexual experiences with women, and past drug addictions?
There have been hundreds of female public figures who have together paved the way for girls of today, and it's preposterous to stay Stevie isn't one of them. Maybe some have accomplished more than others, or should be considered bigger trailblazers. But no matter where you rank her, she is on that list.

I love this post!

Shout out to Blondie, Tina Turner, and Cher!

[WildHearted]

"Flamboyance and attitude from Janis, " ???????????

This has always annoyed me , Janis was wild on stage and wore Color!! Steve stays in a 2 foot perimeter of her mic stand and has worn the same Black shmatte for year , with not much variation

She does now, but she didn't 30-40 years ago...

[elle]

I don't agree whatsoever with those who are making this personal and attacking you individually
right? there was so much of it that i'm almost worried that i might be attacked by a chiff army at one of the upcoming Mac shows.:distress: if that happens i will count on Ed's righteous and chivalrous nature (that i hope he does have somewhere bellow it all) to come through in my defense. :nod:

This is a woman who chose a career over a family or a husband. A woman who admits to having had abortions. A woman who is straight up about how many men have screwed her over, and admits to every last discrepancy and affair and addiction, and openly says she doesn't mind giving up romance or marriage or companionship for her job. How many people can say that unabashedly? And in addition to that, she didn't play the "girl singer role" women so often took on in those days. She partied as hard as the men did. She did just as many drugs. She had just as much sex. She was never a housewife type of woman and she never claimed to be. I'm not saying all of her choices were right, but she definitely paved the way for a lot of other female musicians to come into their own. She's a beautiful, sexy woman who dresses up in lace and velvet and chiffon and platforms, but is taken seriously by every man in the business. She earned that. She never sacrificed her femininity and confidence to be treated like a serious musician. She proved herself to be treated that way.

.........

I'm not saying Stevie was the only one who paved the way, she obviously was not. Janis and Grace Slick started it before her. Linda and Ann and Nancy were doing it at the same time that she was. People like Madonna and Cyndi Lauper continued after her. Some women don't even get much recognition for their trailblazing actions. Did you all know Cher was the first woman to show her belly button on tv, and was criticized for it by the public? Did you know the press and country fans everywhere slandered Dolly Parton in the late 70s for talking about her sexual experiences in her teenage years during an interview? Or that in 1968, long before country was ever female-friendly, she released a single called Just Because I'm a Woman, about how hypocritical it is for men to judge women on past sexual discrepancies, or whether they drink or smoke or whatever, when they all are guilty of the same? Or that Debbie Harry, who started her career as a playboy bunny (!) and was considered one of the most beautiful women in the world, actually preached equality and anti-racism all throughout her career, is credited with making rap mainstream, actually named her band after the cat-calls from men in cars who would yell "hey blondie!" out at her and whistle; in an attempt to re-claim the rude nickname, and that she openly admits to her plastic surgery, sexual experiences with women, and past drug addictions?
There have been hundreds of female public figures who have together paved the way for girls of today, and it's preposterous to stay Stevie isn't one of them. Maybe some have accomplished more than others, or should be considered bigger trailblazers. But no matter where you rank her, she is on that list.
thank you for taking the time to write this really nice post! i was not going to go into this thread anymore because it became way too petty (see Johnny Stew's quote above), but this post brought me back.

it is so nice to see the recognition of all these other women. among others we are forgetting, i would definitely add Chrissie Hynde who successfully led her own band as someone already pointed out in this thread, and also Suzi Quatro the first female bass player to become a major rock star and had first hit singles in the early 70s.

[elle]

I love this post!

Shout out to Blondie, Tina Turner, and Cher!

yes, definitely Tina! :thumbsup:

[Christopher]

what a crock of sh*t.

putting down every other woman especially from the current generation, while putting herself on a pedestal of fighting for women's rights?? pleeeeeease. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I gotta say, your initial comments sure seem like you popped off (early) & jumped to assumption here, perhaps due to your apparent disrespect, and/or weary views on Ms. Nicks. :shrug: Because after reading this interview, clearly Stevie never said anything that should be construed to assume she herself (only) put herself on THE said pedestal, or put down any other women.:cool:

I have not meticulously read through every nuance of everyones responses here, but I don't think that anyone has touched upon what I believe to be Stevie's potetial mindset of the question posed about women rights being stripped away today. There is currently a not so subtle assault (particularly from the Republican right wing factions) on all U.S. womens health reproductive rights, ranging from Planned Parenthood attacks to outright vitriol about overturning "Roe -vs- Wade" and a womens right to choose. I think its entirely possible that Stevie does not entirely live in a rock n' roll bubble, and is very aware of this current women's rights political hot potato being regurgitated 40 years later. Stevie clearly had the right to choose and allegedly did so, and I'm sure this is a passionate subject for her and her generation of women.

[michelej1]

right? there was so much of it that i'm almost worried that i might be attacked by a chiff army at one of the upcoming Mac shows.:distress: if that happens i will count on Ed's righteous and chivalrous nature (that i hope he does have somewhere bellow it all) to come through in my defense. :nod:


Oh, I did laugh at Hejira saying that. I don't think anyone thinks you're obsessed with her:laugh:.

Michele

[elle]

I have not meticulously read through ever nuance of everyones responses here, but I don't think that anyone has touched upon what I believe to be Stevie's potetial mindset of the question posed about women rights being stripped away today. There is currently a not so subtle assault (particularly from the Republican right wing factions) on all U.S. womens health reproductive rights, ranging from Planned Parenthood attacks to outright vitriol about overturning "Roe -vs- Wade" and a women's right to choose.

i agree with this and thought that's what she actually must be talking about after i cooled down a bit.

i haven't looked at any statistics and am not sure whether what's upfront in political debate and on tv is paralleled or completely unrelated to what is happening jobwise - whether things like pay inequality, number of high positions held by women, women with children going back to workforce, etc went down, up or stayed the same over the last few decades.

[QueenStevie]

I have not meticulously read through every nuance of everyones responses here, but I don't think that anyone has touched upon what I believe to be Stevie's potetial mindset of the question posed about women rights being stripped away today. There is currently a not so subtle assault (particularly from the Republican right wing factions) on all U.S. womens health reproductive rights, ranging from Planned Parenthood attacks to outright vitriol about overturning "Roe -vs- Wade" and a womens right to choose. I think its entirely possible that Stevie does not entirely live in a rock n' roll bubble, and is very aware of this current women's rights political hot potato being regurgitated 40 years later. Stevie clearly had the right to choose and allegedly did so, and I'm sure this is a passionate subject for her and her generation of women.

Well, I don't agree. Hopefully, in one of her IYD screening Q&A's, Stevie gets asked about that, so that we would all know for sure what she meant there!

[michelej1]

I have not meticulously read through every nuance of everyones responses here, but I don't think that anyone has touched upon what I believe to be Stevie's potetial mindset of the question posed about women rights being stripped away today. There is currently a not so subtle assault (particularly from the Republican right wing factions) on all U.S. womens health reproductive rights, ranging from Planned Parenthood attacks to outright vitriol about overturning "Roe -vs- Wade" and a womens right to choose. I think its entirely possible that Stevie does not entirely live in a rock n' roll bubble, and is very aware of this current women's rights political hot potato being regurgitated 40 years later. Stevie clearly had the right to choose and allegedly did so, and I'm sure this is a passionate subject for her and her generation of women.

We are debating many issues on the national stage right now: rape, abortion, Melissa Mayer's installation of a nursery next to her own office, while at the same time telling her employees they can no longer work from home, Sandberg's "Lean in" . . . I'm sure that Stevie's aware of all of these things, but based on the tenor of her comments, I don't think she was talking about womens' reproductive rights, although she probably has feelings on the subject. I think she was talking about career equality more than anything else. I'm aware that pregnancy/family impacts career, but I don't think Stevie's general statement was meant to encompass all of that.

Michele

[WildHearted]

Well, I don't agree. Hopefully, in one of her IYD screening Q&A's, Stevie gets asked about that, so that we would all know for sure what she meant there!

Out of curiosity, why do you disagree?

I tend to think she was talking more about women's role in respect to their careers and general value in society, but I don't necessarily think it impossible that she might have been talking of more political aspects too. The interview is pretty badly chopped up so it's hard to really understand the full context of what she was saying (and also we don't know the exact question she was responding too). Not to mention that this is Stevie, so anything she says is open to interpretation :lol:

[Christopher]

We are debating many issues on the national stage right now: rape, abortion, Melissa Mayer's installation of a nursery next to her own office, while at the same time telling her employees they can no longer work from home, Sandberg's "Lean in" . . . I'm sure that Stevie's aware of all of these things, but based on the tenor of her comments, I don't think she was talking about womens' reproductive rights, although she probably has feelings on the subject. I think she was talking about career equality more than anything else.
Michele
I agree, I should have included an addendum that Stevie's answer was potentially a bigger awareness of women's many current issues (which include women's reproductive choices) that are once again being challenged on the national & political stage.
Instead this thread delineated into some kind of petty competition about whom is or was the bigger woman feminist trailblazer of rock, simply because of a seemingly reactionary opinion by one that Stevie put herself on a pedestal and somehow put down other women.

[elle]

I agree, I should have included an addendum that Stevie's answer was potentially a bigger awareness of women's many current issues (which include women's reproductive choices) that are once again being challenged on the national & political stage.
Instead this thread delineated into some kind of petty competition about whom is or was the bigger woman feminist trailblazer of rock, simply because of a seemingly reactionary opinion by one that Stevie put herself on a pedestal and somehow put down other women.

:laugh: hey now! you all were saying over and over that my reactionary opinion was misplaced, that SN said "we" not "i" in that interview, and that i misunderstood what she meant. by this point in the thread, many here convinced me this may be the case and i may have not been giving her enough credit about recognizing other women rockers.

now you are saying that this thread has turned in "petty competition" because many other women rockers (that would have been encompassed in Stevie's "we", no?) have been recognized and credited too? :confused:

[Christopher]

:laugh: hey now! you all were saying over and over that my reactionary opinion was misplaced, that SN said "we" not "i" in that interview, and that i misunderstood what she meant. by this point in the thread, many here convinced me this may be the case and i may have not been giving her enough credit about recognizing other women rockers.

now you are saying that this thread has turned in "petty competition" because many other women rockers (that would have been encompassed in Stevie's "we", no?) have been recognized and credited too? :confused:

I'm just implying that it's so subjective & secondary to pit all these women's feminist creditials against each other, when it was never Stevie's clear intention to put herself on any pedestal, or before any other women in her response to women's rights.:shrug:

[PenguinHead]

you need to float like a goddess so you can get your rights? what?? sorry, i think i can have my rights without having to float. i like to stomp.

That statement stood out at me. Stevie completely contradicted herself, asserting that all women have be goddess-like to earn their rights. Surely, she likely didn't intend to regress and support old school misogyny, but many people will interpret it that way; the message being that image/looks are what opens doors. Sadly, there's a bit of truth to it!

Ledgies understand Stevie Speak, but the general public doesn't. Any time Stevie publicly speaks about social/political issues, it can be cringe-worthy. She has only a modicum of intelligence to tackle serious issues with any depth of knowledge. Though the her clipped musings are amusing and quirky, it doesn't do her image any favors.

[vivfox]

Ledgies understand Stevie Speak. Any time Stevie publicly speaks about social/political issues, it can be cringe-worthy. She has only a modicum of intelligence to tackle serious issues with any depth of knowledge.

:xoxo::nod::laugh::thumbsup:;)

[bombaysaffires]

I think when Stevie mentioned floating like a goddess she basically means "acting regal" that is, go in strong, expecting to be treated well and with respect, and giving severe disapproval to those who don't comply. You know, imagine doing something Queen Elizabeth doesn't approve of and the cold, stare you'd get from her.....;)

[redbird]

I find it really hard to believe that most people would seriously read that comment and come away with "Stevie Nicks thinks women have to look so beautiful, to the point of being called goddesses for that beauty, in order to earn their rights." It seems really super obvious to me that she is saying that she would make it clear from the way she carried herself that she wouldn't be walked all over. It's utterly nothing I can't imagine someone not named Stevie Nicks saying.

She's clearly talking about attitude with that comment. I've posted that comment a few times on my Tumblr, none of the people who have reacted to it thought she was talking about looking like the patriarchal ideal of beauty, and maybe about 10% even care about Fleetwood Mac.

Yes, "goddess" implies superhuman and feminism isn't about women being superhuman, but in the context of an industry and a culture like rock and roll (in which it's not just fine, it's fun to debate which male star is a god ... and then go spray paint it on alleys ...) who really begrudges her that? Making a mountain out of a molehill IMO.

[bombaysaffires]

here's more of what she said about this in her interview (see the thread with the whole NPR interview for more):

Nicks: It worked. It always worked. So, our boys never went anywhere without us. And we were always invited to the party. But it was because we demanded that from the very beginning. 'Cause you know, you can't just, like, be a wimp and then a year and a half or two years later decide to not be a wimp anymore. Because people will always treat you like a wimp once they have decided that's what you are. So you can never, ever be that. You have to be strong and tough and intelligent and smart and kind of plan out what you're going to say and know who you are. So that people will get that right away. Because then they're always going to be great to you. And they're always going to treat you with respect. And that's what you want, because then they listen to you. And then they listen to your songs. And then they give you a chance. Otherwise, you get nowhere.

[elle]

I'm just implying that it's so subjective & secondary to pit all these women's feminist creditials against each other, when it was never Stevie's clear intention to put herself on any pedestal, or before any other women in her response to women's rights.:shrug:

I don’t see that people are pitting these women or their credentials, feminist or otherwise, against each other; that would be wrong and misplaced. I initially subjectively thought SN was doing this in that npr interview, and it may have been an impression I got from some of her fans - that they think she was somehow more important while disregarding the others. But in the course of this thread, I thought we resolved this was wrong assumption on my part, no?

All these women people were listing and recognizing objectively deserve credit and they and others who we are forgetting were still a small percentage compared to a number of men rockers, and there is ton of space for many many more. Why diminish them by making it a competition?

[UndoingTheLaces]

what a crock of sh*t.

putting down every other woman especially from the current generation, while putting herself on a pedestal of fighting for women's rights?? pleeeeeease. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

If you hate her so much why are you here? We really don't want to hear stuff like this. :(

[Christopher]

All these women people were listing and recognizing objectively deserve credit and they and others who we are forgetting were still a small percentage compared to a number of men rockers, and there is ton of space for many many more. Why diminish them by making it a competition?

That's my point! It is not a competition nor should it be one. Assumptive conjecture on your part drew the ire of some Stevie fans as it should have. :rolleyes: And I quote:"putting down every other woman especially from the current generation, while putting herself on a pedestal of fighting for women's rights?" I was simply touching upon something different entirely (current women's rights issues) since the thread went south after your reactionary initial response. End of story.:cool:

[elle]

why are you here? We really don't want to hear stuff like this. :(

:lol: didn't you just a minute ago profusely thank me for giving you the info about q&a in LA?

[elle]

That's my point! It is not a competition nor should it be one.

glad we agree. :thumbsup:

[UndoingTheLaces]

:lol: didn't you just a minute ago profusely thank me for giving you the info about q&a in LA?

Sorry. I've got a fever and a headache and really cranky. I'm not myself today. I was seriously coming here to delete my comment hoping nobody had seen it. I'm really ashamed. :(

[michelej1]

I find it really hard to believe that most people would seriously read that comment and come away with "Stevie Nicks thinks women have to look so beautiful, to the point of being called goddesses for that beauty, in order to earn their rights." It seems really super obvious to me that she is saying that she would make it clear from the way she carried herself that she wouldn't be walked all over. It's utterly nothing I can't imagine someone not named Stevie Nicks saying.


I don't know if people take away that Stevie thinks women have to look beautiful, but I do think the comment seems flighty and undermines the other part of her message.

To me, Stevie is saying the same thing that she said many years ago, that in Fritz and then in FM she told those men that she would be equal to them on stage AND that she would not be carrying the equipment cases backstage. I think she means to herald both the equality between the sexes and the distinction she perceives between them.

But her statement has been quoted a lot in the wires and I guess I could read the comments sections in the various newspapers to see what non-fans think about it, but the comments sections are a very scary place.

Michele

[WildHearted]

For what it's worth, this same article was posted on Oh No They Didnt, a gossip blog notorious for cutting down celebrities (and which also happens to have a very strong feminist presence). There's basically 100+ comments of people agreeing with her.

http://ohnotheydidnt.livejournal.com/76228689.html?view=comments

[michelej1]

With the context added (thanks to the NPR transcript), float in like goddesses translates into having to command respect.

Michele

[bombaysaffires]

To me, Stevie is saying the same thing that she said many years ago, that in Fritz and then in FM she told those men that she would be equal to them on stage AND that she would not be carrying the equipment cases backstage.


except of course that the men in the bands *were* lugging equipment cases... so she kinda wants to have her cake and eat it too.. ie, be seen/treated as an equal in terms of songwriting and power in the band, but then wants to be treated in a deferential manner and not expected to do any heavy lifting or dirty work because she's a delicate princess whom the gallant knights should want to protect and defend. That part undermines her message as well.

[redbird]

I don't know if people take away that Stevie thinks women have to look beautiful, but I do think the comment seems flighty and undermines the other part of her message.

To each their own indeed then.

I remember Stevie talking about how she couldn't do all the heavy lifting of the instruments on stage like the others do, like Lindsey and John do, and she was solidly deferential to them. She said she couldn't do what they do. She IS physically far far weaker and it'd be weird for anyone to pretend that she isn't.

[redbird]

For what it's worth, this same article was posted on Oh No They Didnt, a gossip blog notorious for cutting down celebrities (and which also happens to have a very strong feminist presence). There's basically 100+ comments of people agreeing with her.

http://ohnotheydidnt.livejournal.com/76228689.html?view=comments

On my personal blog, maybe 10% of people care about Stevie Nicks or Fleetwood Mac, and 80% of people intensively and at times academically care about feminism. Nobody has taken this comment to mean "I'm such a princess and women who aren't princesses like me deserve what they get."

[elle]

Sorry. I've got a fever and a headache and really cranky. I'm not myself today. I was seriously coming here to delete my comment hoping nobody had seen it. I'm really ashamed. :(
awww no worries! but thanks for the apology, that was really nice.

hope you get better soon, and that you managed to get your tix. :)

[Phil]

Gee, I thought that every member of this forum had a contribution to make, regardless of where their preferences (band-wise) might lie. It's important to respect everyone's views, whether we agree with them or not. Some healthy discussion, devoid of vilification, ought to be the order of the day.

[michelej1]

To each their own indeed then.

I remember Stevie talking about how she couldn't do all the heavy lifting of the instruments on stage like the others do, like Lindsey and John do, and she was solidly deferential to them. She said she couldn't do what they do. She IS physically far far weaker and it'd be weird for anyone to pretend that she isn't.

She didn't say it like she couldn't physically do it. She said it like it's not something that a lady would do or would be asked to do. I'm not saying that she should be lugging equipment or not lugging it one way or another. I'm saying that I think she tends to assign gender labels herself, in a way that I think is itself a form of sexism. Well, gender labels to women. I've never heard her say anything about what men should do or expect them to fit into their more stereotypical roles, but I have seen her make comments that suggest women should do that in the past.

As for the floating goddess comment, it just sounded flaky to me. Still, I don't think it suggested that women who are not "princesses" should be discriminated against, however. In fact, I don't think she said that women deserve to be treated shabbily if they don't do this or that at all. She did not suggest that women have brought the differential treatment on themselves, in this latest comment.

Michele

[michelej1]

I remember Stevie talking about how she couldn't do all the heavy lifting of the instruments on stage like the others do, like Lindsey and John do, and she was solidly deferential to them. She said she couldn't do what they do. She IS physically far far weaker and it'd be weird for anyone to pretend that she isn't.

Yes, she did talk about playing an instrument on stage recently. However, she wasn't talking about the guitars in the statement to which I refer. She was talking about back when they were poor and would have to set up the stage themselves, packing, unpacking and carrying the equipment to the stage to set it up. It wasn't a question of pretending there are no physical differences between men and women. It was a gender role assignment issue.

Michele

[I'msoAfraid95]

I'm all for women's rights. I'm a very independent 17 y/o female, but dam, Stevie, you think mighty highly of yourself, don't ya?:rolleyes:. " We have to float like goddesses" PPPPLLLEEEAAASSSSEEE, Stevie, stop there.

Yes, women do need to show men that we can do the same things as them, and some things we can do better. I'd love to see a man go through having a period or pregnancy, that way men, will know what its like to be a woman, but also I'd like to feel whats its like to go through some of the crap men go through.

Goddesses? Yes, they are powerful, but yet they're expected to be beautiful, have manners, and allot of stuff that I don't want/ have nor do I to want to have that stuff.

[louielouie2000]

Gee, I thought that every member of this forum had a contribution to make, regardless of where their preferences (band-wise) might lie. It's important to respect everyone's views, whether we agree with them or not. Some healthy discussion, devoid of vilification, ought to be the order of the day.

:nod: We haven't had this kind of heated, yet thought provoking discussion in some time. I, for one, am very much enjoying seeing all these ideas debated.

She didn't say it like she couldn't physically do it. She said it like it's not something that a lady would do or would be asked to do. I'm not saying that she should be lugging equipment or not lugging it one way or another. I'm saying that I think she tends to assign gender labels herself, in a way that I think is itself a form of sexism. Well, gender labels to women. I've never heard her say anything about what men should do or expect them to fit into their more stereotypical roles, but I have seen her make comments that suggest women should do that in the past.

As for the floating goddess comment, it just sounded flaky to me. Still, I don't think it suggested that women who are not "princesses" should be discriminated against, however. In fact, I don't think she said that women deserve to be treated shabbily if they don't do this or that at all. She did not suggest that women have brought the differential treatment on themselves, in this latest comment.

Michele

You're totally right. I remember one time she said she doesn't drink anymore (which we've all seen footage of her drinking over & over, but I digress), because men are allowed to be drunk onstage/in public, but if a woman ever does that, it's looked down upon & never forgotten. A true feminist would view that summation to be utterly sexist, and eschew it.

I also tend to think it's a terribly insulting to women musicians when she constantly throws around the fact that as a woman, she would not have been able to have children and be a rock star. Plenty of women have successfully pulled it off. Plenty of women have had long marriages & balanced their music careers, too. I think it's completely her prerogative to forgo marriage & children for her career. But when she says she wasn't capable of combining marriage and/or children with her career, that's when her feminist credentials get a bit questionable, in my eyes.

[michelej1]

The thing about Stevie is, lest we forget, she was born in 1948 and some of her ideas are from that era. But I think she has evolved some over the years. There's no question that she supports other women and believes in shaping the independence of those who come after her. I think Sheryl, Vanessa and Taylor Swift are all examples of that. But sometimes with these people (Christine too) you just have to follow the pattern of equality they set with their LIVES and ignore some of their words, because the words sometimes don't conform to their achievements. And Stevie does -- or maybe she's outgrowing it now, but she did -- have a tendency to want women to be feminine, because she felt that helped them advance without challenge.

“I tend to get dressed up every single night so that everybody knows that when I walk in that this is serious. I don’t ever go to the studio in jeans and tennis shoes, ever. I always dress up because I know that if I walk in there, even if I’m ten pounds overweight, and I’m dressed up and I look pretty, then everyone in that room says ‘wow, she must have really thought she was going somewhere cause look at the rest of all of you.’ And I insist upon it with the girls too because if you don’t look like you care after these guys have been around you for a couple of months you are going to become like an old shoe. I am never going to become like an old shoe to any of the men in my life, ever. So they are always going to take me serious on that basis and it’s unfortunate that you have to do that, it’s a big game, but it works.”

"It says in the Highwayman, ‘she considers slowing down,' but then he would never win. She purposely lets him win because it’s easier to let him win. She gets a lot further if she just lets him win. And I learned that a long time ago if I was going to be accepted as anything, as a songwriter, as a person, as anything that I would have to be very quiet, unaggressive around them, feminine and trick them to death. And it worked. See I love them and I respect them so much, and they are, as far as I’m concerned the greatest songwriters and all I ever wanted from them was a pat on the back saying ‘not bad Stevie.'”

Or saying that men should know women are strong: "And maybe if they fed that a little bit, all of this women's liberation would go away and everybody would be happy. If men gave us just a little more credit and an extra hug and said, "Good job," that would solve a lot of it. Women want to be beautiful, sweet, feminine and loving. But they also want to be thought of as intelligent and necessary. And even if your woman is not all those things, you should want her to feel good about herself, to believe in herself."


"I lived in a world of men. I had very few girlfriends. I mean Lindsey and I from the very beginning lived in a room maybe this size with his ten or eleven friends and me. And in order to be accepted as anything else other than as Lindsey's pretty girlfriend, the one who makes coffee for us, or pours us a glass of wine, or makes sure we have food if we are hungry, you know the one who keeps this place looking really nice. In order for me to be accepted by them as anything more than that, I had to be very careful, walk very quietly, say very little, and observe, and so I did. And that went right straight into Fleetwood Mac, I did the same thing. And that went straight into meeting The Eagles and all the other bands that I met, or the men in the bands that I met, that in order to be accepted as a musician, singer, songwriter, poet, I couldn't say too much and if I did I would instantly get thrown out.

[KateTheCursed]

And Stevie does -- or maybe she's outgrowing it now, but she did -- have a tendency to want women to be feminine, because she felt that helped them advance without challenge.

That's not just a Stevie thing. Dolly Parton has said something similar...along the lines that she didn't mind that people thought she was just another dumb blonde because she knew she wasn't really dumb or blonde. ;) The thing about true feminism is that there is no one right feminine ideal. Some want to achieve their equality and independence by proving themselves through masculine confines. Other's want to achieve their equality and independence by being unapologetically and unyieldingly feminine. Both have merits. I'm a big, old tomboy who would die a 100 deaths if I had to wear chiffon & be girly every day to succeed. But you know what? That's a personal preference. So you go Joan Jett...you be as "masculine" and as rough around the edges as you want to be & you keep on keeping on your way until the day they pry the microphone from your cold, dead hand. And Stevie...never change! Be yourself everyday and keep encouraging other young women to be themselves (what ever form that may take). To thine own self be true.

[michelej1]

That's not just a Stevie thing. Dolly Parton has said something similar...along the lines that she didn't mind that people thought she was just another dumb blonde because she knew she wasn't really dumb or blonde. ;)

It's fine to do what works for you, but just don't expect other people to do that same thing or counsel them to do it, judge when they don't, or make assumptions that they will/should. Dolly Parton was not advising other women to play the dumb blond role.

There are as many ways to be a woman as there are women.

Michele

[KateTheCursed]

It's fine to do what works for you, but just don't expect other people to do that same thing or counsel them to do it, judge when they don't, or make assumptions that they will/should. Dolly Parton was not advising other women to play the dumb blond role.

There are as many ways to be a woman as there are women.

Michele

When has Stevie ever tried to turn the next generation of artists into little mini-me's? Just because she has a very strong ideal of who & what she is doesn't mean she's ever tried to repaint the world in her image. Being proud & comfortable in one's own skin does not equate to looking down your nose at anyone who's different. Let's look at this from a different perspective. We've considered the Stevie of the late 70's & early 80's that although she wasn't always taken seriously she was one of the most famous and successful women in the music industry. As such she garnered a fair degree of imitators and at the very least respect was given lip service. Since 1997 she has been heralded as some kind of Earth Mother, living legend that has and continues to inspire multiple generations of women artist. We have not, however, considered the Stevie of the late 80's and early 90's. She was out of step with the mainstream. She couldn't pay for airtime. On good days, she was seen as a quaint reminder of happy memories of another time. On bad days, she was the butt of jokes. Through it all she remained unapologetically and unsuccessfully feminine. I realize that Stevie was not at her best at this time. She was struggling with a prescription drug problem and battling her weight. Had drugs not been an issue, I have no doubt that the music she might have created during this time would have been more dynamic. I also have no doubt that it still would have been out of touch with the mainstream because Stevie still would have been Stevie. Moreover, flighty though she may at times seem, I don't believe Stevie is a dumb blonde any more than Dolly Parton is a dumb blonde. I believe she is intelligent enough to recognize that had all of the ensuing female artists been cut out of the same cloth as Stevie herself, then she would have lost a certain individuality that has made her stand out all these years. No doubt Stevie prefers that women maintain their femininity. That's a personal preference...we all have those. That doesn't mean Stevie's saying that the female artist has to be feminine to be successful. IMO she's saying a woman should be able to be their own the creation, not the creation of a bunch of spin artists trying to get rich and use of this year's flavor before moving on to the next crop. It's got to hurt seeing talented young artists being reduced to kleenex. Snatch one of them up; use them; cast them aside; start again...over and over and over again.

[michelej1]

^in the comments I quoted Stevue was not only sharing her own philosophy but saying thatvother women should do that too. She may have evolved since then, but in the past she has often expressed antiquated notions of womanhood. It doesn't make her bad. It makes her a product of her generation. Her life is often more representative of equality than her words are. Michele

[elle]

Her life is often more representative of equality than her words are. Michele
yes, after reading various responses i realized what i initially disregarded is that by being a successful woman in men-dominated profession a woman is automatically a trailblazer.

^in the comments I quoted Stevie was not only sharing her own philosophy but saying that other women should do that too. She may have evolved since then, but in the past she has often expressed antiquated notions of womanhood. It doesn't make her bad. It makes her a product of her generation.

"I said to Chris, we can never be treated like second-class citizens," she explained. "When we walk into a room we have to float in like goddesses, because that's how we wanted to be treated. "

Lipstick feminism? :D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipstick_feminism - Lipstick feminism is a variety of Third-wave feminism that sought to embrace traditional concepts of femininity, including the sexual power of women, alongside feminist ideas.

re a product of her generation - wasn't that really a tail end of a hippy generation? can she be more of a product of the upbringing in her family? :shrug: i don't know much about SN's family, but if you come from a family with several generations of women working in non-traditionally-female fields, maybe philosophy to be-quiet-and-look-pretty-in-the-presence-of-men wouldn't readily occur to you?

[michelej1]

yes, after reading various responses i realized what i initially disregarded is that by being a successful woman in men-dominated profession a woman is automatically a trailblazer.

Yes, it's true and I say it about Chris too, because there have been a couple of articles in the past, making the argument that her songs are weak, always mooning over a lost man who doesn't return her love and I can't deny that, but so what if her lyrics are weak? If you are a female musician looking for a role model, look at Christine's professional life.



Michele

[blemelin]

I'm just going to leave the link after I say this: Stevie's few remarks in Austin re: feminism sparked some issues here. I read the arguments, thought about responding, thought better of it and walked away. Then I found this. I probably should have left this in the existing thread, but I couldn't find it again. AND I WANTED TO START FRESH WITH THIS and get past the existing falderal. (Sorry for the flame.) I don't think Stevie was only referencing the music business with her comments. Anyway, this sums it all up much better than I ever could.

http://oneweekoneband.tumblr.com/post/34431214946/stevie-nicks-is-a-queen-a-witch-a-dragon-shes-in

[blemelin]

http://www.npr.org/blogs/therecord/2013/03/17/174494011/stevie-nicks-when-we-walk-into-the-room-we-have-to-float-in-like-goddessses

This covers a lot of the omissions left out in the initial blog that caused all the falderal. Read it for comprehension before you go off. All the comments here make a lot more sense in the context of the entire interview, including the "float like a goddess" comment, which seemed to offend a number of people.

I know Stevie is erratic and narcissistic and flaky and flawed (aren't we all?), but this goes a long way to settling at least one or two of the eccentricities of the edited comments.

Peace out.

[jkmaletic]

I'm just going to leave the link after I say this: Stevie's few remarks in Austin re: feminism sparked some issues here. I read the arguments, thought about responding, thought better of it and walked away. Then I found this. I probably should have left this in the existing thread, but I couldn't find it again. AND I WANTED TO START FRESH WITH THIS and get past the existing falderal. (Sorry for the flame.) I don't think Stevie was only referencing the music business with her comments. Anyway, this sums it all up much better than I ever could.

http://oneweekoneband.tumblr.com/post/34431214946/stevie-nicks-is-a-queen-a-witch-a-dragon-shes-in

Someone posted that awhile back on another thread (not the same topic) and I loved it. It sums a lot up.

And as far as Stevie's "we have to float in like Goddesses" comment goes, I took it to mean the equivelant of when men use the phrase, "walk in like a God" which is used when dealing with potential competition or just when extra confidence is needed.
I don't know Stevie personally, but I really think that's more along the lines of what she meant. Don't be a wallflower. Be strong, but in a feminine way. That's all.

Personally, I could actually use some of that advice myself, as when I need to be strong I tend to be too masculine, which people sometimes perceive as gruff.

~ Jamie

[WildHearted]

Someone posted that awhile back on another thread (not the same topic) and I loved it. It sums a lot up.

And as far as Stevie's "we have to float in like Goddesses" comment goes, I took it to mean the equivelant of when men use the phrase, "walk in like a God" which is used when dealing with potential competition or just when extra confidence is needed.
I don't know Stevie personally, but I really think that's more along the lines of what she meant. Don't be a wallflower. Be strong, but in a feminine way. That's all.

Personally, I could actually use some of that advice myself, as when I need to be strong I tend to be too masculine, which people sometimes perceive as gruff.

~ Jamie

Exactly. The point being that masculinity should not necessarily be an indicator for strength, or vice versa. You should be able to be perceived as BOTH feminine and strong. One doesn't negate the other.

[redbird]

If Stevie recommends playing along with the patriarchy to some extent in order to get along, I would not consider that feminist, but I would also not consider it condescending of women who don't play along. The sad fact is you can't always say no to the patriarchy because sometimes what's at stake is just too great, the cards are stacked against you and you can't win if you don't play along. Fortunately things are not so bad that you can't pick some battles.

I would not tell a woman to listen to the kind of advice Stevie gives that encourages playing along with the patriarchy, that would be her choice to navigate the patriarchy the way she sees fit. But neither would I conclude that Stevie is anti-woman or condescending of other women because of this, because the truth is sometimes women can recommend not rebelling because they do care about you, it happens a lot with mother-daughter or other intergenerational relationships with women.

I also would really warn against the idea that many women in life are perfect feminists. Even Gloria Steinem has made mistakes and said some things that don't hold up to scrutiny. The way I see it, feminism is not yet another yardstick to use to beat down women for not being perfect enough, feminism is not yet another competition for us to earn approval, and by making mistakes we do not let feminism or womankind down, because we're human beings before we're representatives (and humanity is the whole point of feminism IMO). Stevie is very probably not a perfect feminist, but few women anywhere are, and that doesn't mean she hasn't contributed significantly.

And the huge thing is that she is willing to talk about it, and once you are willing then high profile discussions can be had, the public is thinking about it once again instead of living in some kind of post-feminist delusion. And Stevie herself can learn, and she can teach, and everyone (theoretically) wins. If Stevie says something sketchy she should be called out on it. But I can think of few women, even feminists, who can't stand to learn something and amend their past words.

As an example, Christine's a great and admirable woman but the way she implicitly agrees with the idea that women are Yoko Onos of rock'n'roll never sat well with me. Doesn't mean I disregard all the great things she's said as well as accomplished.

ETA: I wouldn't be surprised that Stevie has said less evolved things in the past, after all most people evolve as they age. I just don't think that her comments in this particular interview suggest anything off, including the word "goddess" (unless you insist on being stubborn about what she probably means). That's the only reason I said anything in this thread. In the past, sure she probably was less evolved. The past is the past, though, and what she's saying now doesn't really bum me out (yet).

ETA2: IMO some feminine women regard their femininity imperiously because they feel it is attacked and trivialized by society at large, so they're reacting against having their back against the wall by coming out fists first, so to speak. I don't know every single thing she's ever said so I'm not going to presume that it's all defensible (but I was only trying to defend this particular interview in the first place), but there's another side to it. Not that it should excuse not growing up and learning though.

[michelej1]

I think Stevie has had a tendency to judge other women. Not in this article. I think her words in this article are empowering, more than anything else, but in the past she seems to have had an old-fashioned view that I do find sexist but I attribute it to her being in her sixties, more than anything else.

For instance, when she blasted Madonna for kissing Christina and Britney, I don't think she would have publicly criticized an older man kissing two young women like that. I should say, I don't think she said it from a homophobic perspective either. If Madonna had kissed two young men, I don't think Stevie would have liked that either. I think she just didn't think a "lady" should behave in that fashion.

Michele

[vivfox]

http://www.npr.org/blogs/therecord/2013/03/17/174494011/stevie-nicks-when-we-walk-into-the-room-we-have-to-float-in-like-goddessses

This covers a lot of the omissions left out in the initial blog that caused all the falderal.

At the bottom of this article it still says it's the condensed version.

[blemelin]

That's why I didn't say it was the whole interview. I merely pointed out that it was more complete than the post that started this thread.

[redbird]

Stevie does have a prudishness that keeps her from being really in touch with sex positivity, I would agree with that. However to be honest I can understand some feminists' criticism of female sexual exhibitionism (especially girl-on-girl action that happens to be situated as to be able to appeal to straight guys -- and that can't apply to men kissing women since there isn't an equal and opposite history in modern western culture of men performing strictly to appeal to women's turn-ons), even though I also understand counter-criticisms. It's one of those things that a lot of feminists disagree on, in my experience.

That said the way Stevie words things is not careful or thoughtful. She has this "beauty fades" idea which is true enough and also this "I say this because I care" attitude which may be sincere, but her efforts would be more effective and fair if they focused on the patriarchic structures that commodify female sexuality in the first place. I don't think she has that awareness.

I think Stevie has things to learn about feminism. I also think she's something of a trailblazer in rock'n'roll for women though, a lot of female pioneers don't technically qualify as feminists themselves, but feminism is still appreciative of them.

(Hell, Margaret Sanger, early champion of legal birth control, was a white supremacist. Try telling a black woman that she should be her female role model :distress: But, uncomfortably, we're stuck with a white supremacist who did a lot for women's right to contraception.)

[vivfox]

Old Today, 03:19 AM
blemelin blemelin is offline
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 51
Default The entire Ann Powers interview
http://www.npr.org/blogs/therecord/2...ike-goddessses

[QueenStevie]

For instance, when she blasted Madonna for kissing Christina and Britney, I don't think she would have publicly criticized an older man kissing two young women like that. I should say, I don't think she said it from a homophobic perspective either.

And even if she did say it from a homophobic perspective, so what! We shouldn't hold that against her. Stevie is who she is, and that's that!

[michelej1]

And even if she did say it from a homophobic perspective, so what! We shouldn't hold that against her. Stevie is who she is, and that's that!
Well, that's not that for me. Everyone is who they are, but that's no reason not to hold them accountable, if appropriate. There was one band that told a tale of meeting Christine and she walked up to them and said they looked gay (or some kind of british equivalent, like ponces, or something) and I thought that was awful. They said they were crushed by her comment. They were strangers to her, not one of her buddies who would have thought it a joke. I mean, I don't know why you would walk up to someone you don't know and say something hurtful to them. I admire Christine as much as I always did, but I found fault with that.

Ted Kennedy: couldn't love him more than I do, but I don't sit there thinking I should just accept the fact that he was making phone calls to keep himself out of trouble when a girl was DYING. I do hold that against him.

Michele

[The Catdancer]

Well, that's not that for me. Everyone is who they are, but that's no reason not to hold them accountable, if appropriate. There was one band that told a tale of meeting Christine and she walked up to them and said they looked gay (or some kind of british equivalent, like ponces, or something) and I thought that was awful. They said they were crushed by her comment. They were strangers to her, not one of her buddies who would have thought it a joke. I mean, I don't know why you would walk up to someone you don't know and say something hurtful to them. I admire Christine as much as I always did, but I found fault with that.

Ted Kennedy: couldn't love him more than I do, but I don't sit there thinking I should just accept the fact that he was making phone calls to keep himself out of trouble when a girl was DYING. I do hold that against him.

Michele

Great post. I wonder why Christine would say that. I guess she's not as liberal as I thought she was.

[michelej1]

Great post. I wonder why Christine would say that. I guess she's not as liberal as I thought she was.

Well, it was a long time ago, when she was still with Chicken Shack. I'm sure she wouldn't say something like that today. Obviously, people said a lot of outrageous things about others in the sixties. Prejudice was common and she might not have been prejudiced. Maybe that was just her rude way of telling them that she didn't think their music was substantial enough. But why would you even have to share that with someone? I just thought it was shocking that she'd say something to their faces that would hurt them, not knowing them and all. I mean we all have thoughts, but most of us keep them to ourselves, unless we're saying it to friends that we regularly insult for fun.

Of course, it depends on whether you believe Status Quo, the band in question, or not. They said this in a 2005 interview:

But the band simply did not fit in with the developing music of the day: they were too pop, their image was all wrong and their heavier contemporaries had begun to notice.

"We'd been playing with Rory Gallagher and Chicken Shack," says Rossi. "Rick and I thought Christine Perfect [of Chicken Shack and later, as Christine McVie, of Fleetwood Mac] was great. But she met us once and called us a couple of ****in' ponces and we thought, `No, not Christine Perfect...' We were gutted for ages."

Anyway, Stevie definitely isn't the kind of person who would say anything like that, not even in the sixties, I don't think. Her personality is totally different.

Michele

[elle]

Of course, it depends on whether you believe Status Quo, the band in question, or not. They said this in a 2005 interview:


wasn't Status Quo huge at the time (much bigger than Chicken Shack)?

[bombaysaffires]

there was the People magazine article about FM around the time the white album was doing well and Christine commented that she seemed to attract a lot of female fans, particularly homosexuals, whom she referred to as "lezzies" and expressed some discomfort with them. Reading it now just makes my jaw drop, but it was not that uncommon at the time. One suspects (hopes) she would have a different attitude now, or at least would choose to express herself differently.

[SisterNightroad]

Bluetracks: Not an unforgiving girl

“She’s not an unforgiving girl / it’s just an unforgiving world.” This Car Seat Headrest lyric from the track “Unforgiving Girl (She’s Not An)” pithily comments on a woman’s constant fight to be palpable and present in trying environments that may attempt to discredit her.

This lyric lingers as we’re fresh off International Women’s Day and a weekend of performances of “The Vagina Monologues” on campus. These demonstrations of solidarity in conversation and art emphasized the joys of femininity as well as the complications in living it on a daily basis across the globe. Moreover, they’ve raised crucial questions about who is afforded the chance to express her feminine perspective and why, especially in discussions fostered in academic spaces. To even begin to collectively engineer answers, women must first build each other up and in the same stroke, must refuse to apologize to the unforgiving world for moving forward with heart, fight and moxie.

In case you’re unfamiliar with “The Vagina Monologues,” it’s a Tony Award-winning episodic drama written in 1996 by Eve Ensler. Ensler conducted interviews with hundreds of women and then compressed them into dramatic sketches, which have been performed in theatre spaces and on college campuses for the past two decades. The monologue readings work with a decent topical spectrum of femininity, ranging from sexual expression, to queer identities, to the sexual assault and exploitation of women to mobilizing communities for change. In each production, the cast of women attempts to exercise voice, explore perspective and perform shades of feminine experience without being didactic.

Now, this year our university’s cast of 34 women was apparently the most diverse in recent memory, offering more shades of the feminine experience than ever: two black women, two Indian women, two Asian women and one trans woman. Out of 34. And we call that diversity.

Without being tied to a specific monologue, I felt that in my role as the narrator, I could observe and assess the performance a bit more holistically and objectively. I’ll echo the main idea of the op-ed put forth by the executive board that coordinated the performances: “The Vagina Monologues” are so white. What follows is the question: What does this mean?

One of my tasks as narrator was to collect songs from each cast member to create something called the “Vagina Home Song” playlist that provided the music before the shows and at intermission. A “vagina home song” is a concept that stems from the crushing monologue about rape during the Yugoslav wars, titled, “My Vagina was My Village.” These songs robustly capture personal ideas of womanhood and power in feminine energy. Generally anthemic in nature, the songs are selected to reflect identity. I don’t know why I was startled by patterns in the playlist. I guess I failed to anticipate the correlation between a predominantly white cast and “white music.”

I failed to anticipate Stevie Nicks.

When asked who runs the world, we can say that girls do without hesitation. Beyoncé is the closest we can get to a universal icon for female empowerment and thus, she almost reigned supreme over the playlist. When asked who invented punk, we can argue between England and Patti Smith. Punk legacies laced the playlist by way of X-ray Spex, Against Me! and Sleater-Kinney. When asked about the geography of comfort and belonging, we might whisper something about folk music. The home songs did not shy away from Joni Mitchell and First Aid Kid or even male bands like Fleet Foxes.

But when asked about the musical anchor of white feminism, I had to consult the playlist for the answer. Stevie Nicks of Fleetwood Mac came up as the undeniable winner. “Rhiannon,” “Silver Springs” or “Edge of Seventeen” seemed to pop up in every other submission. As pleased as I was as someone who is named after a Fleetwood Mac song and who owns “Rumours” vinyl, I had to wonder if there was an insidious element to this trend.

The monopolization of the “Vagina Monologues” by white feminists would be inherently negative. This would come in the form of an all-white cast attempting to adopt the stories and personas of minorities featured in the drama, effectively narrowing the scope of authentic femininity and excluding those who are least heard. So if the executive board recognizes and actively avoids this threat to disadvantaged women, why is the cast still so white?

Put simply, the cast reflects the composition of our university’s campus, which is predominantly white. But then the question remains that if the performers, pulled honestly from the university ranks, cannot identify with the experiences of characters like the trans woman or the migrant field laborer or sex worker, is it right for them to perform such stories? If the performers operate as conduits and not sources, is it permissible? Wouldn’t it be worse to not hear those stories at all? What is the line between appreciating and trying to understand stories versus co-opting and appropriating them? This ethically haziness extends far beyond the monologues.

With all this in mind, we circle back to Stevie. If undergraduate white girls were consciously edging out women of color, members of the LGBTQ community, Latinas, immigrants and women below the poverty line, etc. we’d be able to definitively say there was malice afoot. Instead, it’s blurry. While the repetition of Stevie Nicks in the playlist could signal blandness and unoriginality in the listeners, it could also signal the potency of the artist’s messages. It’s white women channeling Stevie Nicks’ smart poetics, bold sexuality and self-worth. They cling to her music because it comforts them. It’s the music passed down from their parents. It’s their first piece of proof that women could rock and roll.

If “The Vagina Monologues” truly hinge on education and the celebration of womanhood, then women choosing songs that make them feel empowered and connected can’t be wrong. We can’t necessarily expect white members of the cast to most identify with, say, K-pop or the political hardcore music or afro-fusion they have no context for, but we shouldn’t shame them if they do. There’s nothing wrong with a playlist filled to the brim with Fleetwood Mac as long as the curators remain open to diverse artists and genres and refrain from deleting the song choices of others. Because Stevie Nicks’ music prompts empathy more than exclusionary practices, its empowerment is perfectly fine as long as it’s not at the expense of another.

The monologues and the vagina home song playlist do not include every shade of woman, but try to be as inclusive as possible in platforming issues. Here are ten sample songs that show she might not always be palatable, but she’s always palpable and present. She’s always woman. And for this, she will not apologize.

Patti Smith: “Gloria: In Excelsis Deo”
Chastity Belt: “Nip Slip”
Angel Olsen: “Woman”
Joni Mitchell: “All I Want”
Car Seat Headrest: “Unforgiving Girl (She’s Not An)”
Girlpool: “Cherry Picking”
Sleater- Kinney: “A New Wave”
X-Ray Spex: “Oh Bondage! Up Yours!”
Against Me!: “True Trans Soul Rebel”
Fleetwood Mac: “Silver Springs”



http://udreview.com/bluetracks-not-an-unforgiving-girl/

[lilyfee]

Interesting article about Stevie and The Vagina Monologues. I was heavily involved with this show during college and I had to grapple with the fact that for its time, the show was/still is revolutionary in many ways, but it is by no means inclusive of what it means to have a vagina. When I directed the show, I hoped to elevate the source material with unexpected interpretations so that it continued to be progressive and not exclusionary. If anyone wonders why women of color or trans people might shy from auditioning, it's worth noting that it only specifies one monologue for each demographic. I feel that anyone involved in the show has an obligation to choose the best person for the role, aware that the best person might not audition if they think there is no space for them in the show!

It is true that Stevie and other so called "white feminist" artists are home for many people in the same demographic, but IMHO the show is supposed to make people a little uncomfortable in order to expand their horizons. It is about moving past that which is foreign and uncomfortable in order to discover a safe space within.:shrug: Therefore I think they should have tried a little harder to find empowering music from more than one genre of artist.

[dreamsunwind]

Interesting article about Stevie and The Vagina Monologues. I was heavily involved with this show during college and I had to grapple with the fact that for its time, the show was/still is revolutionary in many ways, but it is by no means inclusive of what it means to have a vagina. When I directed the show, I hoped to elevate the source material with unexpected interpretations so that it continued to be progressive and not exclusionary. If anyone wonders why women of color or trans people might shy from auditioning, it's worth noting that it only specifies one monologue for each demographic. I feel that anyone involved in the show has an obligation to choose the best person for the role, aware that the best person might not audition if they think there is no space for them in the show!

It is true that Stevie and other so called "white feminist" artists are home for many people in the same demographic, but IMHO the show is supposed to make people a little uncomfortable in order to expand their horizons. It is about moving past that which is foreign and uncomfortable in order to discover a safe space within.:shrug: Therefore I think they should have tried a little harder to find empowering music from more than one genre of artist.


^^ A friend of mine in the women's club at school has always had a problem with The Vagina Monologues and I can't say I disagree with her. It's a good concept in its essence but it needs a lot of expanding.

I don't know too much about Stevie's stance but she just gives me white feminist vibes. Like an older version of Taylor Swift.