Time

[FierySequences]

This album and line up is one of the most perplexed combinations. I know some fans really liked this, while most others seemed to loathe it. I like the album with the artists that recorded it....but I have a hard time accepting it as an FM album.

The reason for the post and my theory in regards to it "not" being a FM album opposed to BTM being one, is:

(If you own a copy) Check out the liner notes and the additional players listed. After each CM song, Michael Thompson – guitars on tracks 2, 5, 8, 10 & 12 is listed. And on some of the others tracks 3, 4 & 9, Steve Thoma – keyboards is listed.

Chris wasn't even present when they did the photo shoot, she is only pictured with Mick and John, not at all in a full group shot. I think I read somewhere that Chris didn't care for the idea of Dave Mason joining/recording with the band. Whether there is any truth to that, I have no idea, but I am very curious as to why and the circumstances surrounding why Chris was not present for the other band members' recordings.

It's almost as if CM recorded her vocals/keys and guitar and sent in the recordings to the band. Which, I believe isn't far from the truth. Now the same could be said about SN during TITN recording, and I would also have to agree with that.

Any thoughts or knowledge about the recording of Time?

Not many on here like to discuss, listen, or even acknowledge that Time existed. But, I actually like the album. I'd like some expert opinions from ChiliD, SteveMac, or any one else that would like to chime in. Thx.

[chiliD]

Time, as it was released, was pretty much a "compromise" album. WB had rejected the original album that was submitted with the title Another Link In The Chain due to Christine's complete absence from the album. It was all Bekka, Billy & Dave's compositions. Christine's songs were hurredly recorded & assembled in order to comply with WB's demands that (supposedly) she was contractually obligated to appear on Fleetwood Mac albums. I'm sure that the lingering mutual dislike between Christine & Dave Mason DID have something to do with his not appearing on her songs, but it also might be that he wasn't available to do those sessions due to other obligations. Plus, since Bekka, Billy & Dave's material that was included was already completed, so there was really no need to go back and re-record those tunes with Christine...that would've been a waste of time & money.

There were promotional photos released with both Christine & Dave together with Mick, John, Bekka & Billy. So, they co-existed for at least as long as the photo session took. I think those might even have been taken after the artwork for the CD booklet was already completed.

I think whoever tracked the songs did a horrid job, basically magnifying the disjointed feel of the album. Thanks to the capability of reprogramming the running order of a CD (and now with iTunes playlists), a more flowing tracking CAN be obtained. Once again, here's what I came up with:

I DO
TALKIN' TO MY HEART
I WONDER WHY
WINDS OF CHANGE
SOONER OR LATER
DREAMING THE DREAM
NIGHTS IN ESTORIL
NOTHING WITHOUT YOU
I GOT IT IN FOR YOU
HOLLYWOOD (SOME OTHER KIND OF TOWN)
BLOW BY BLOW
THESE STRANGE TIMES
ALL OVER AGAIN

[SteveMacD]

(If you own a copy) Check out the liner notes and the additional players listed. After each CM song, Michael Thompson – guitars on tracks 2, 5, 8, 10 & 12 is listed. And on some of the others tracks 3, 4 & 9, Steve Thoma – keyboards is listed.
Christine and Dave didn't really get along all that well. They go back to Birmingham, England, back when she was hanging around the Spencer Davis Group, for which he was a roadie.

Chris wasn't even present when they did the photo shoot

Oh really?

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b313/SteveMacD/fleetwoodmac_1995.jpg

Whether there is any truth to that, I have no idea, but I am very curious as to why and the circumstances surrounding why Chris was not present for the other band members' recordings.

I think the liner notes give a false impression (I could be wrong) about what happened. I posted a while back that this is who I think plays on each song:

Talkin’ To My Heart: Mick, John, Bekka, Billy, Dave, and Christine
Hollywood: Mick, John, Christine, Thompson
Blow By Blow: Mick, John, Bekka, Billy, Dave, and Thoma
Winds Of Change: Mick, John, Bekka, Billy, Dave, and Christine
I Do: Mick, John, Bekka, Billy, Dave, Christine, and Thompson (note Tompson is listed as "additional guitar")
Nothing Without You: Mick, John, Bekka, Billy, Dave, Christine, and Lindsey
Dreamin’ The Dream: Bekka, Billy, and Christine (maybe Dave?)
Sooner Or Later: Mick, John, Christine, Thompson, Tackett
I Wonder Why: Mick, John, Bekka, Billy, Dave, Christine, and Thoma
Nights In Estoril: Mick, John, Christine, Thompson
I Got It In For You: Mick, John, Bekka, Billy, Dave, and Christine
All Over Again: Mick, John, Christine, Thompson
These Strange Times: Mick, John, Bekka, Lucy, Jones

So, I think all of the Bekka and Billy stuff is just the actual members of the band.

Time, as it was released, was pretty much a "compromise" album. WB had rejected the original album that was submitted with the title Another Link In The Chain due to Christine's complete absence from the album.
I still don't buy it. EVERYTHING they said in interviews during the 1994-95 period is that Christine was still in the band, just not touring. I mean EVERY interview. There was even that photo of her playing with them prior to Billy coming back. In fact, Billy even stated that the reason he had only two songs on the record was because he came back so late in the game. Now, maybe she pulled her songs at some point, but the only public statements were that she was still in the band. Actually, I wouldn't be shocked if she recorded her songs in 1993, when they were looking for a guitarist, and Thompson was just some studio guy they used.

Also, THIS

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b313/SteveMacD/FM94.jpg

[FierySequences]

Thx for the hard work and research you two put into these posts...very interesting. And of course it clears up some of the confussion.

Thx for the great pic's posted by SteveMacD, Chris and Bekka look gorgeous and Chris (although smiling) leaning forward in an apprehensive way confirms (possibly) Chris' discomfort with this line-up.

As you proved me wrong Steve, I was only speculating Chris was absent b/c I have never seen these photos, I was not posting it as a FACT.

thx again for posting:thumbsup:

[SteveMacD]

As you proved me wrong Steve, I was only speculating Chris was absent b/c I have never seen these photos, I was not posting it as a FACT.
I was just kidding around. But, I do find it odd that they didn't use this picture anywhere on the cover.

[MacShadowsBall]

Time isn't a bad album.

Stevie and Lindsey were gone and Christine was just there to provide five songs to the album. Billy didn't really get much attention during his Mac tenure, getting lost in the mix (if you will) essentially making him a "new" member along with Bekka and Dave. Of course Mick and John were there so yes it was still Fleetwood Mac, but they aren't singer/songwriters and the faces of the band like Christine, Stevie, and Lindsey and as Peter and Bob Welch were during their tenures. :cool:

[SteveMacD]

Time isn't a bad album.

Stevie and Lindsey were gone and Christine was just there to provide five songs to the album. Billy didn't really get much attention during his Mac tenure, getting lost in the mix (if you will) essentially making him a "new" member along with Bekka and Dave.
But Billy WASN'T a new member, and FANS (not necessarily the public) knew him. He had been affiliated with Fleetwood Mac in some way for over a decade by that point, and had been in the band for two big tours and a modest-selling album. Fleetwood Mac had several minor hits during his time.

Of course Mick and John were there so yes it was still Fleetwood Mac, but they aren't singer/songwriters and the faces of the band like Christine, Stevie, and Lindsey and as Peter and Bob Welch were during their tenures. :cool:
Some fan of Fleetwood Mac from day one in 1973: "Penguin" -no Peter, no Jeremy, no Danny...NOT Fleetwood Mac. Sure, Christine is there, but it's just NOT Fleetwood Mac.

I don't disagree that Billy wasn't exactly the face of the band at that point, but neither was Bob Welch in 1973, except for the handful of fans that were giving it a chance, regardless of who was in it.

[aleuzzi]

Time is a much better album, IMO, than Mask. Bekka and Billy sound especially good. I don't see the logic in including Dave Mason. But otherwise, the songs and performances are strong.

My only other complaint is the cheesy sounding keyboard tones. Christine's approach is fine, as is her playing. But the sound of the electric keyboard is tinny and cheap.

I like the running order of the songs. So long as Mason's contributions are removed.

[SteveMacD]

Time is a much better album, IMO, than Mask. Bekka and Billy sound especially good. I don't see the logic in including Dave Mason. But otherwise, the songs and performances are strong.
Billy quit in early 1993, so they needed a male singer/guitarist, hence Dave Mason. If Billy had stayed, I doubt Mason would have been hired.

If it had continued, I think Christine and Dave would have been gone by the next record. With the whole alt.country thing from the mid to late '90s, it could have been interesting.

[FierySequences]

I'm enjoying the Time love replies.

To me, this album is a pretty straight forward rock and blues album...with a little country thrown in.

I agree with the poster that said Dave's contributions wasn't needed, but since Billy had quit, I can now see why he was needed.

Right after SN and CM annouced they were now longer touring the band...I envisioned a 4 piece with just the guys carrying on. Some of the pics in the BTM tour book (just the guys) made me wonder what kind of rock and blues future this quartet would have pulled off. I would have bought a ticket to that show.

[SteveMacD]

Right after SN and CM annouced they were now longer touring the band...I envisioned a 4 piece with just the guys carrying on. Some of the pics in the BTM tour book (just the guys) made me wonder what kind of rock and blues future this quartet would have pulled off. I would have bought a ticket to that show.

It would have gone something like this (http://www.muzu.tv/mick-fleetwood-band/dont-stop-live-music-video/1589502/)

[FierySequences]

It would have gone something like this (http://www.muzu.tv/mick-fleetwood-band/dont-stop-live-music-video/1589502/)

I love it! thx for sharing, Steve

[HomerMcvie]

It would have gone something like this (http://www.muzu.tv/mick-fleetwood-band/dont-stop-live-music-video/1589502/)

I love this! Thanks for sharing it!

[MacShadowsBall]

It would have gone something like this (http://www.muzu.tv/mick-fleetwood-band/dont-stop-live-music-video/1589502/)

Where did that come from? I love it! :D

No keyboard player so the opening chords were done on guitar, I suppose Rick played lead while Billy did rhythm and other guy played bass?

[SteveMacD]

Where did that come from? I love it! :D

No keyboard player so the opening chords were done on guitar, I suppose Rick played lead while Billy did rhythm and other guy played bass?
Yep. That other guy, BTW, is George Hawkins.

First, he started filling in for members of Fleetwood Mac with other artists. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPKJZFog_vw)


Then he started playing with various members of Fleetwood Mac...

Mick Fleetwood... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WH7xv0WW-0)

Lindsey Buckingham... (http://johnnywestmusic.wordpress.com/2008/05/29/a-two-a-three-a-four/) (Hey, that guy standing right next to George looks familiar...)

Mick Fleetwood's Zoo... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WH7xv0WW-0)

Christine McVie... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SW_f_fDbuKM)

Billy Burnette... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcuR2t3wk5o)

Sang harmonies on John McVie's solo record... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hLWE8tHztw)

And Bekka Bramlett (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85Mj5XMFfhM) (who understands what it's like filling in for Stevie Nicks).

[chiliD]

Yep. That other guy, BTW, is George Hawkins.

First, he started filling in for members of Fleetwood Mac with other artists. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPKJZFog_vw)


Then he started playing with various members of Fleetwood Mac...

Mick Fleetwood... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WH7xv0WW-0)

Lindsey Buckingham... (http://johnnywestmusic.wordpress.com/2008/05/29/a-two-a-three-a-four/) (Hey, that guy standing right next to George looks familiar...)

Mick Fleetwood's Zoo... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WH7xv0WW-0)

Christine McVie... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SW_f_fDbuKM)

Billy Burnette... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcuR2t3wk5o)

Sang harmonies on John McVie's solo record... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hLWE8tHztw)

And Bekka Bramlett (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85Mj5XMFfhM) (who understands what it's like filling in for Stevie Nicks).

Steve, is that video of "Don't Stop" fairly recent? If so, it was nice seeing George Hawkins back playing with Mick again. Sort of "the Zoo" with Rick Vito. :nod: :thumbsup:

[SteveMacD]

Steve, is that video of "Don't Stop" fairly recent? If so, it was nice seeing George Hawkins back playing with Mick again. Sort of "the Zoo" with Rick Vito. :nod: :thumbsup:
I think it's from 2006.

[Neb-Maat-Re]

If Billy had stayed, I doubt Mason would have been hired.

Should have been Billy Thorpe.

[SteveMacD]

Should have been Billy Thorpe.
Eh, probably not. I think he burned some bridges with Mick and Bekka on that tour. I know he took off for hours without letting anybody know where he was when they played in Dayton, and that Bekka went off on him after the show. The chemistry between Thorpe and Bekka was nothing like the chemistry between Bekka and Burnette.

[FierySequences]

Eh, probably not. I think he burned some bridges with Mick and Bekka on that tour. I know he took off for hours without letting anybody know where he was when they played in Dayton, and that Bekka went off on him after the show. The chemistry between Thorpe and Bekka was nothing like the chemistry between Bekka and Burnette.

What the hell was I doing in 95? I think I lived in NC at the time.

Damn If I had been in Dayton, (I am from there) the story would go more like Mick and Bekka disapear with me to Yellow Springs where we would go to Ha Ha Pizza, drink some great wine, then Mick would pull out some of the freshest grass and we would get lost in the wooded splendor of Glen Helen.

Mick would adopt me and I would be on their road crew until the end of the Dance tour and then later I would become Stevie's PA. She would have released more (1 or 2) albums solo and w/ Mac. We would hear more songs like SOTM and Angel live. I'd be living in Hawaii by now And the universe would be in alignment :D

[HomerMcvie]

What the hell was I doing in 95? I think I lived in NC at the time.

I don't really remember WHAT I knew of the "current" FM, then. Because this was right in the window of me getting my first computer, and didn't really know much about the internets. So I had no Ledge insider info, or anything...

Somehow I knew that it wasn't the Rumours lineup...I only remember that my cousin said, "hey, FM is playing with REO Speedwagon, and Pat Benatar, and it's a CHEAP show!" So we decided "what the hell, let's go".

I remember hearing people around us(we had lawn seats) bitching about "this isn't really FM....this sucks". But I gave them a chance, and by the time Bekka was singing Dreaming the Dream, I had became a fan of this lineup. And I truly believe that they could have gone on to make great music, if it weren't for getting past the ghost of FM Past.

[SteveMacD]

What the hell was I doing in 95? I think I lived in NC at the time.

Damn If I had been in Dayton, (I am from there) the story would go more like Mick and Bekka disapear with me to Yellow Springs where we would go to Ha Ha Pizza, drink some great wine, then Mick would pull out some of the freshest grass and we would get lost in the wooded splendor of Glen Helen.
Well, the Zoo show at McGuffy's, where Thorpe took off, was in August, 1992.

That having been said, I was in Dayton in 1995, and I SHOULD have been getting into Guided by Voices. But, I chose to study and screw around on the internet.

[Villavic]

Christine's songs are the only material I have copied from Time cd to my ipod. Did I miss the Rumours lineup? Of course, but I'm not restricted to it. If Rick still had been in the band, I'd have included his songs.

[SteveMacD]

Christine's songs are the only material I have copied from Time cd to my ipod. Did I miss the Rumours lineup? Of course, but I'm not restricted to it. If Rick still had been in the band, I'd have included his songs.
Billy was still in the band. In fact, the Burnette/Bramlett material, IMO, is the real soul of the album.

[Neb-Maat-Re]

I know he took off for hours without letting anybody know where he was ...

Making the him the first guitarist to to do that before joining FM?


The chemistry between Thorpe and Bekka was nothing like the chemistry between Bekka and Burnette.

Sorry, meant Thorpe instead of Mason. I doubt that changes your thoughts.

[Villavic]

Billy was still in the band. In fact, the Burnette/Bramlett material, IMO, is the real soul of the album.

I know, but I liked more Rick's contribution in the previous album and tours.

[SteveMacD]

Making the him the first guitarist to to do that before joining FM?
:confused:

It not uncommon for things like that to happen, but if it was to the point that Bekka went off on him in front of fans, that would suggest to me there was a pattern that had become unacceptable to her. After that, he just sat at the bar sulking, and was unapproachable.

Sorry, meant Thorpe instead of Mason. I doubt that changes your thoughts.
It doesn't. I can make an argument for Dave Mason being in Fleetwood Mac MUCH easier than Billy Thorpe, and it's not that easy to make an argument for Dave Mason. But, I can at least go through his catalog and hear songs that sound like Fleetwood Mac (which oddly do not include his actual Fleetwood Mac songs).

The ideal situation would have been Billy staying and the band getting a lead guitarist who didn't sing (i.e. Gregg Wright...I'd say Michael Thompson, but he was too busy).

[FierySequences]

Saw a few great video clips of Bekka with the Mac on 95 tour.

She is a great singer and performer...I never really understood why she never broke out as a top selling single artist....but yet we get the likes of Taylor Swift and Nicki (WTF) Minaj?

Anyway, this has inspired me to listen to Time (and again)

[chriskisn]

Funny thing about Dave Mason is that I actually like his songs on Time way better than I like his solo stuff up until that point.

While he is my least favourite FM member, I do accept that after FM he became a hell of a lot "cooler" than in the years before. Perhaps Mick saw that potential and it just wasn't realised until he left FM? Plus, from the occasional old clip that I've seen he really was a damn fine guitarist even if you don't usually get to see that side of him.

[chriskisn]

Saw a few great video clips of Bekka with the Mac on 95 tour.

She is a great singer and performer...

....and by far the best female vocalist of Fleetwood Mac by a mile and half! :sorry:

[billwebster]

Saw a few great video clips of Bekka with the Mac on 95 tour.

She is a great singer and performer...I never really understood why she never broke out as a top selling single artist....but yet we get the likes of Taylor Swift and Nicki (WTF) Minaj?


Yes, I also never understood why she never had a solo career of her own as a performer. It all started out so nicely: that duet with Joe Cocker from his album "Have A Little Faith", then her debut with Fleetwood Mac, then the Bekka & Billy album (which I like better than "Time") and then ... tambourine and backing vocals and lots of songwriting.

When I look at the likes of Minaj and Gaga, it's like the bigwigs of the music industry cannot stand real women in music (like Bekka would have been one). So instead, they promote characters reminiscent of a vaudeville show like the former. That's kind of sad really.

[wetcamelfood]

Yes, I also never understood why she never had a solo career of her own as a performer. It all started out so nicely: that duet with Joe Cocker from his album "Have A Little Faith", then her debut with Fleetwood Mac, then the Bekka & Billy album (which I like better than "Time") and then ... tambourine and backing vocals and lots of songwriting.

When I look at the likes of Minaj and Gaga, it's like the bigwigs of the music industry cannot stand real women in music (like Bekka would have been one). So instead, they promote characters reminiscent of a vaudeville show like the former. That's kind of sad really.

That's it exactly. Bekka had/has been offered big solo contracts but she declined them for those reasons. She wanted to be herself and that conflicted with their plans. I really admire that about her. :)

John

[MacShadowsBall]

Yep. That other guy, BTW, is George Hawkins.

First, he started filling in for members of Fleetwood Mac with other artists. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPKJZFog_vw)


Then he started playing with various members of Fleetwood Mac...

Mick Fleetwood... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WH7xv0WW-0)

Lindsey Buckingham... (http://johnnywestmusic.wordpress.com/2008/05/29/a-two-a-three-a-four/) (Hey, that guy standing right next to George looks familiar...)

Mick Fleetwood's Zoo... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WH7xv0WW-0)

Christine McVie... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SW_f_fDbuKM)

Billy Burnette... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcuR2t3wk5o)

Sang harmonies on John McVie's solo record... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hLWE8tHztw)

And Bekka Bramlett (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85Mj5XMFfhM) (who understands what it's like filling in for Stevie Nicks).

Thanks for info, SteveMacD. I now recognized the name as one who worked with Christine and her '84 album.

BTW, I can't stand Taylor Swift, Nicki Minaj, and Gaga. :cool:

[SteveMacD]

Funny thing about Dave Mason is that I actually like his songs on Time way better than I like his solo stuff up until that point.
Ooh. I can't get behind that. "Alone Together" is just a masterpiece. There are few albums I've ever heard that match the sheer beauty of its production, Fleetwood Mac or otherwise. I also love the record he made with Mama Cass and "Let It Flow". Even "Two Hearts" was pretty good. I think Mick hoped that THAT was the Dave Mason he was getting. Hard Rocker isn't the first thing I'd say about Mason, and it was an unnatural role for him in the Mac. Also, that second Traffic album is pretty killer.

That's it exactly. Bekka had/has been offered big solo contracts but she declined them for those reasons. She wanted to be herself and that conflicted with their plans. I really admire that about her. :)

Me too. Unlike her predecessor, she saw the pitfalls of being that big when she was a kid, and chose to be an artist by day and a backing vocalist by night. She doesn't need the money and doesn't want the fame. If she palyed guitar, she'd be a hero, like the band's founder

[chriskisn]

I also love the record he made with Mama Cass

I have that for completist purposes only. It is one of the worst albums in my collection. I guess we can't agree all the time though Steve :lol:

[jools]

I liked 'Time' a lot
I prefer it to Say You Will


I would have preferred if Rick was in the band taking Dave Mason's place.

I loved the following tracks

All Over Again
Hollywood
Nights In Estoril
Dreaming The Dream
Talking To My Heart
Nothing Without You
Winds Of Change

[SteveMacD]

I have that for completist purposes only. It is one of the worst albums in my collection. I guess we can't agree all the time though Steve :lol:
I can only think of two bad songs. "Walk To The Point" is a killer song. I would agree that it didn't break a lot of new ground, but it's still pretty good.

[PenguinHead]

Ooh. I can't get behind that. "Alone Together" is just a masterpiece. There are few albums I've ever heard that match the sheer beauty of its production, Fleetwood Mac or otherwise. I also love the record he made with Mama Cass and "Let It Flow".

I absolutely love the improbable album Dave made with Cass Elliot. It recently was re-released.

This is the album that thinly links the Mamas & Papas to Fleetwood Mac.

[I'msoAfraid95]

Out of the Time songs I've heard, I only like These Strange Times, Which is the song everybody else seems to hate! :p. I like it cause its differeny and weird.
Time just doesn't sound FM to me.

[FierySequences]

Out of the Time songs I've heard, I only like These Strange Times, Which is the song everybody else seems to hate! :p. I like it cause its differeny and weird.
Time just doesn't sound FM to me.

Take a closer look, it has some really strong tracks via the ladies, esp Nights in Estoril. These Strange Times has actually grown on me, it's not bad at all.

[chiliD]

These Strange Times has actually grown on me, it's not bad at all.

And, for me, it's even more of a revelation reading that Mick Fleetwood played LEAD GUITAR on the track!! I guess after so many decades of playing with God-like guitarists, something must've rubbed off via osmosis.

[julieannboo]

i thought there were some great tracks on 'Time' :)

[Villavic]

The album article in Wikipedia says this is the first that failed to make the charts in the US. Is that really true? Do they mean the Top 100 or the whole chart at all? Does anybody know?

In any case, after reading how Time was born, the Warner pressure, etc.. If it failed to make any chart, no doubt the lineup was damned to die, cause no record company would support it.

[chiliD]

The album article in Wikipedia says this is the first that failed to make the charts in the US. Is that really true? Do they mean the Top 100 or the whole chart at all? Does anybody know?

No, that's incorrect. The album called Black Magic Woman which was a reissue of Dog & Dustbin & English Rose in a 2-LP set in 1972 did not chart either.

Considering there's no numbers higher than 200, I would assume that the lowest the charts go is #200.

Heroes Are Hard To Find was the first Fleetwood Mac album to break into the Top 40, peaking at 34.

Amazingly, prior to that, their highest charting album was Penguin at #49.

Here's the entire list...with the highest charting position:

Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac (aka Dog & Dustbin): 198
English Rose: 184
Then Play On: 109
Kiln House: 64
Blues Jam At Chess (aka Fleetwood Mac In Chicago): 143
Future Games: 91
Bare Trees: 70
Black Magic Woman (reissue of Dog & Dustbin/English Rose as 2lp set): did not chart
Penguin: 49
Mystery To Me: 67
Heroes Are Hard To Find: 34
Vintage Years (reissue of Dog & Dustbin/Mr Wonderful as 2-lp set): 138
Fleetwood Mac: 1
Fleetwood Mac In Chicago (reissue): 118
Rumours: 1
Tusk: 4
Fleetwood Mac Live: 14
Mirage: 1
Tango In The Night: 7
Greatest Hits ('88): 14
Behind The Mask: 18
Time: did not chart
The Dance: 1
Very Best Of Fleetwood Mac: 12
Say You Will: 3

The Original Fleetwood Mac wasn't originally released in the US...don't know if, by the time it was, it ever was tracked for chart appearance...but it appears that it didn't make the US album charts, either.

[wetcamelfood]

Amazingly, prior to that, their highest charting album was Penguin at #49.

I'm sure Chris will like me saying this but seriously I often wondered if this had to do with Walker joining since he was the lead singer for Savoy Brown at the peak of their popularity and SB fans heard he jumped ship and so they were curious to see what direction FM were going to go in (i.e. more like SB, and may have continued to follow them had Penguin sounded more like SB)? Just a thought. :)

John

[chriskisn]

I'm sure Chris will like me saying this but seriously I often wondered if this had to do with Walker joining since he was the lead singer for Savoy Brown at the peak of their popularity and SB fans heard he jumped ship and so they were curious to see what direction FM were going to go in (i.e. more like SB, and may have continued to follow them had Penguin sounded more like SB)? Just a thought. :)

John

With Walker on board I'm surprised the album didn't reach No. 1! Although perhaps he needed more vocals on the album to help it along???? :laugh:

[FierySequences]

I thought this thread was dead.

I have enjoyed reading the interaction of us fans and even the off-topic responses (Dave Walker, Dave Mason, Traffic, etc)

Although I have nothing to contribute to the afformentioned...I found the MF's Blues Band revival w/ CM and Steven Tyler to be refreshing and the very least (or most) Entertaining!

This (IMO) would be an excellent combo to make an album and tour! I'd love to see this line-up live.

[Dex]

Can I revive this thread? I'm listening to Time just now, and I really think this album (and forum, actually) need a bit more love. This isn't my favourite Mac album, but it's one of the few without a track that I dislike. I've really enjoyed reading some of your takes on it, as it's not an album that is often discussed. :)

I'm sorry to say, though, that I can't get into Bekka much as a lead singer. I think she's a gifted songwriter and I really enjoy her work in that regard, but her voice just doesn't pull me in, somehow. I keep imagining her songs being covered by some great country singer, and how mind-blowingly awesome that'd be. I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to be imagining what an awesome cover Singer X would do when you're listening to the original version of a song, though. ;) Sorry Bekka!



I think whoever tracked the songs did a horrid job, basically magnifying the disjointed feel of the album. Thanks to the capability of reprogramming the running order of a CD (and now with iTunes playlists), a more flowing tracking CAN be obtained. Once again, here's what I came up with:

I DO
TALKIN' TO MY HEART
I WONDER WHY
WINDS OF CHANGE
SOONER OR LATER
DREAMING THE DREAM
NIGHTS IN ESTORIL
NOTHING WITHOUT YOU
I GOT IT IN FOR YOU
HOLLYWOOD (SOME OTHER KIND OF TOWN)
BLOW BY BLOW
THESE STRANGE TIMES
ALL OVER AGAIN

Thanks for this tracklist! I'm excited to try it out. :) I agree that the tracklisting is particularly jarring on this album. Talkin' To My Heart is probably one of my favourite Mac tunes of all, and a really strong album opener, and then it doesn't really feel like it has an album to follow it at all. The whole album really feels like someone hit "shuffle" in a playlist with (at least) two different albums in it.

ETA: Also, can I gush over the cover? It might just be me, but I find something beautifully simple and clever about it. Could've become iconic if the music within had been better received.

[holidayroad]

ETA: Also, can I gush over the cover? It might just be me, but I find something beautifully simple and clever about it. Could've become iconic if the music within had been better received.

I always liked the cover, too.

The album does have one of my fave songs by Christine: 'Sooner Or Later'.

[SteveMacD]

"Talkin' To My Heart" is one of the Mac's best ever. (So was "Inuition" ...)

They could've been great, but they chose the chicken sh*t (don't ban me, bro -at least this time) way out.

[Dex]

"Talkin' To My Heart" is one of the Mac's best ever. (So was "Inuition" ...)


I'm glad it's not just me who loves that song. It's really something wonderful, isn't it?

I actually quite like the SYW-lineup of the band, but it is always interesting to imagine what might/could have been, if the band had just been more comfortable completely rebooting itself at that point.

[aleuzzi]

I'm sure Chris will like me saying this but seriously I often wondered if this had to do with Walker joining since he was the lead singer for Savoy Brown at the peak of their popularity and SB fans heard he jumped ship and so they were curious to see what direction FM were going to go in (i.e. more like SB, and may have continued to follow them had Penguin sounded more like SB)? Just a thought. :)

John

One the main reasons Penguin charted higher than Mystery was that the Mystery tour was aborted after a few weeks. The band didn't have the opportunity to promote the record. But before that, all the Mac albums from Future Games onward showed a steady climbing in the charts. If they had properly toured Mystery that would most likely have been the first Pre-BN record to crack the top 40.

[PenguinHead]

Funny thing about Dave Mason is that I actually like his songs on Time way better than I like his solo stuff up until that point.

While he is my least favourite FM member, I do accept that after FM he became a hell of a lot "cooler" than in the years before. Perhaps Mick saw that potential and it just wasn't realised until he left FM? Plus, from the occasional old clip that I've seen he really was a damn fine guitarist even if you don't usually get to see that side of him.

His "Time" with Fleetwood Mac was so bizarre to me. I was more familiar with him through his association with Cass Elliot of the Mamas and Papas. That band wrote the reference road book for the interpersonal relationships, dysfunction and indulgences that Fleetwood Mac would experience a decade later. In 1972 Dave and Cass together released a great album. How could I ever imagine him joining Fleetwood Mac?:shocked::

[becca]

His "Time" with Fleetwood Mac was so bizarre to me. I was more familiar with him through his association with Cass Elliot of the Mamas and Papas. That band wrote the reference road book for the interpersonal relationships, dysfunction and indulgences that Fleetwood Mac would experience a decade later. In 1972 Dave and Cass together released a great album. How could I ever imagine him joining Fleetwood Mac?:shocked::

Off the top of my head I remember that Dave Mason was in a beat type group The Hellions about when Mick was in The Cheynes, maybe their paths crossed a fair bit starting then. When he was with Traffic they were famous for going out into the country communally living and working to get their sound together, which example FM followed at Kiln House and then Kinfauns. Dave never quite jelled with Traffic and left, and returned, and left again. Not surprising he didn't fit in Fleetwood Mac really either. Not really a group kind of person it would seem, he wrote alone and just needed others to record, that sort of situation.

He had some fairly sizable hit compositions... Feelin' All Right and Hole In My Shoe with Traffic. You Can All Join In was also popular. Solo he charted with his 'Alone Together' album on the Blue Thumb label (home also of Love and Dan Hicks at the time among others) and We Just Disagree got lots of airplay in the late '70s. He also played second guitar on some Jimi Hendrix sessions.

The album with Cass is a gem I think but have seen it totally slagged by some, if nothing else it has it's own unique sound in a sea of early '70s conformity, and some genuinely interesting lyrics that would have been at home on a Television album. I'd never part with it myself!

The Mamas & Papas really set the bar high for self-destructive behaviours it's true, Buckingham and Nicks are fly weights really next to Papa John finding Mama Michelle in bed with Papa Denny shortly after they'd signed a multi album deal with Dunhill. Cass had a thing for Denny who just about killed himself in a drunken motorcycle accident the next day (and you can see his chest bandage in some early promo photos). All this before the first album release. Basically Cass got out of there as soon as possible which was having fulfilled the Dunhill contract (only they added a fifth album on to it and she had to go back). John almost killed her making her do endless takes in the studio, and the pressure to diet on top. The same people helped kill Karen Carpenter is all I can say.

[chiliD]

Off the top of my head I remember that Dave Mason was in a beat type group The Hellions about when Mick was in The Cheynes, maybe their paths crossed a fair bit starting then. When he was with Traffic they were famous for going out into the country communally living and working to get their sound together, which example FM followed at Kiln House and then Kinfauns. Dave never quite jelled with Traffic and left, and returned, and left again. Not surprising he didn't fit in Fleetwood Mac really either. Not really a group kind of person it would seem, he wrote alone and just needed others to record, that sort of situation.
.

Don't think it was that he didn't jell with Traffic, I think it was more that there was some serious mutual dislike between he & Steve Winwood, which apparently had its roots back when Dave was a roadie for the Spencer Davis Group. Why Steve wanted to include Dave in Traffic in the first place was kind of a mystery in itself.

Even Eric Clapton, when forming Derek & The Dominos, pretty much tossed him to the curb, telling the press in a very graceful way that Dave was "a great songwriter & needed his own band". Dave had played on the two songs of their first single ("Tell The Truth"/"Roll It Over"*) that got recalled the same day it was released for some reason (both were really good songs, I thought). He was in the studio with the rest of the Dominos during the sessions for George Harrison's All Things Must Pass...also, Dave had been playing along with Clapton in Delaney & Bonnie and Friends...when Eric got the heart of the D&B band to be Dominos, I think Dave kind of assumed he'd be a Domino, too. :shrug:

That he spent so many months nagging Mick to let him in Fleetwood Mac is kind of odd, considering he's NOT really made to be a sideman or band member. He seems to be made of the cloth that wants to call the shots.

(and considering his history with Steve Winwood, I'm surprised that he was so bent out of shape for not being included in Traffic's 1994 reunion tour; basically since he was already on the road with Fleetwood Mac at the time)



*=(the single versions of those songs can be heard on Eric's first Crossroads box set and the recent 40th Anniversary deluxe edition of Layla & OALS)

[SteveMacD]

That he spent so many months nagging Mick to let him in Fleetwood Mac is kind of odd, considering he's NOT really made to be a sideman or band member. He seems to be made of the cloth that wants to call the shots.
He probably assumed Christine's role would be limited to a couple of songs, and Bekka was still wet behind the ears, so he probably thought he WOULD be calling the shots. Having Billy come back changed everything.

[becca]

Why Steve wanted to include Dave in Traffic in the first place was kind of a mystery in itself.


Jim Capaldi was with Dave in The Hellions, I think probably the Traffic project grew from The Hellions to a certain extent.

I know Winwood was very unfond of the Hole In My Shoe single getting a lot of airplay, feeling it was not representative of the Traffic sound. I know they did contribute to at least one of Mason's songs with Traffic but seems to have been under duress for him to share credit or collaborate.

[Villavic]

Time, as it was released, was pretty much a "compromise" album. WB had rejected the original album that was submitted with the title Another Link In The Chain due to Christine's complete absence from the album. It was all Bekka, Billy & Dave's compositions. Christine's songs were hurredly recorded & assembled in order to comply with WB's demands that (supposedly) she was contractually obligated to appear on Fleetwood Mac albums.

According to Wikipedia, This album was also the first that failed to make the charts in the US. With no Stevie and Lindsey, and a barely presence of Christine, I guess nobody was enough interested in releasing a single, but I thought the record company always try to sell a record, so a single should always exist, or so I believed.

But no single was released, was it? At the Wikipedia page of this album, there is no single mentioned. Don't know how reliable are its sources.

And if any song was intende to be a single, I guess the record company would have selected a Christine song, don't you think?

[SteveMacD]

According to Wikipedia, This album was also the first that failed to make the charts in the US. With no Stevie and Lindsey, and a barely presence of Christine
Christine sang lead on FIVE songs, more than Billy Burnette and Dave Mason COMBINED! She DOMINATED that record.

I guess nobody was enough interested in releasing a single, but I thought the record company always try to sell a record, so a single should always exist, or so I believed.

"I Do" was released, and I think "Winds of Change" was, too.

By the time it was released, Christine was out and Mick was working with Lindsey. The record company would likely rather have paid a large advance on a Lindsey-Mick record than on promoting a new Fleetwood Mac album knowing Christine McVie was no longer in the band.

What always kills me is how people talk about how it was such a huge failure (and it was), but fail to mention that Stevie and Lindsey also hit the skids in album sales around that time, and they promoted and toured behind their albums. The "Time" band was basically done by the time the album was released.

[PenguinHead]

Off the top of my head I remember that Dave Mason was in a beat type group The Hellions about when Mick was in The Cheynes, maybe their paths crossed a fair bit starting then. When he was with Traffic they were famous for going out into the country communally living and working to get their sound together, which example FM followed at Kiln House and then Kinfauns. Dave never quite jelled with Traffic and left, and returned, and left again. Not surprising he didn't fit in Fleetwood Mac really either. Not really a group kind of person it would seem, he wrote alone and just needed others to record, that sort of situation.

He had some fairly sizable hit compositions... Feelin' All Right and Hole In My Shoe with Traffic. You Can All Join In was also popular. Solo he charted with his 'Alone Together' album on the Blue Thumb label (home also of Love and Dan Hicks at the time among others) and We Just Disagree got lots of airplay in the late '70s. He also played second guitar on some Jimi Hendrix sessions.

The album with Cass is a gem I think but have seen it totally slagged by some, if nothing else it has it's own unique sound in a sea of early '70s conformity, and some genuinely interesting lyrics that would have been at home on a Television album. I'd never part with it myself!

The Mamas & Papas really set the bar high for self-destructive behaviours it's true, Buckingham and Nicks are fly weights really next to Papa John finding Mama Michelle in bed with Papa Denny shortly after they'd signed a multi album deal with Dunhill. Cass had a thing for Denny who just about killed himself in a drunken motorcycle accident the next day (and you can see his chest bandage in some early promo photos). All this before the first album release. Basically Cass got out of there as soon as possible which was having fulfilled the Dunhill contract (only they added a fifth album on to it and she had to go back). John almost killed her making her do endless takes in the studio, and the pressure to diet on top. The same people helped kill Karen Carpenter is all I can say.

Wow. You know your stuff, And I learned a lot more about Dave Mason's history. Thanks for the info. Glad to find a Ledgie who has extensive knowledge of the Mamas and Papas. In Matt Greenswald's book about them contains a rare photo I gave to him. My name is credited under it, but it's not PenguinHead! And you're probably right about them being more debouched than Fleetwood Mac ever was.

[Tusky]

"I Do" was released, and I think "Winds of Change" was, too.



The promo single is on Ebay with spooky Dennis Wilson rose garden-like cover!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/FLEETWOOD-MAC-I-Do-1995-RARE-EDIT-PROMO-DJ-CD-Single-/260453685931?pt=Music_CDs&hash=item3ca43fdaab

[Johnny Stew]

The promo single is on Ebay with spooky Dennis Wilson rose garden-like cover!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/FLEETWOOD-MAC-I-Do-1995-RARE-EDIT-PROMO-DJ-CD-Single-/260453685931?pt=Music_CDs&hash=item3ca43fdaab

The German CD single for "I Do" is absolutely worth tracking down. It features the radio edit, plus "Talkin' To My Heart," and the extended & dub versions of "Little Lies."

I've never found a promo single for any of the other 'Time' tracks, but I'd love to find one if it's out there.

[chiliD]

The German CD single for "I Do" is absolutely worth tracking down. It features the radio edit, plus "Talkin' To My Heart," and the extended & dub versions of "Little Lies."
.

That's the CD single I have. (also has an alternate photo from that of the album's cover shoot)

[jbrownsjr]

I didn't realize Christine and Richard produced the track.

[Nicks Fan]

I have a different Promo CD with the Penguin on the cover. I got it off Ebay a while ago.

[FuzzyPlum]

There was an interesting posting on Richards blog concerning Time:

Anonymous poster:
Hello Richard, what was it like working on the "Time" album during a period of such a big change within the band?

Richard Dashut:
I hated it. Remember having big problems with a stubborn Dave Mason, who wouldn’t take any production advice. Ended up quitting early on that one I was so frustrated. Felt like a big let down after five quality albums and with no Stevie and Lindsey, I had no real spiritual connection to the project. I probably agreed to do it in the first place just for the money, my bad.

I can see that come through on the album. Dave's songs (which aren't the strongest anyway) could perhaps have come across better with different/better production. I suppose that's what you get when you have people that have 'been around the block a few times'- set in their ways and unwilling to take direction from others.

[TheWILDheart]

There was an interesting posting on Richards blog concerning Time:



That was my question :nod:

[PenguinHead]

Ooh. I can't get behind that. "Alone Together" is just a masterpiece. There are few albums I've ever heard that match the sheer beauty of its production, Fleetwood Mac or otherwise. I also love the record he made with Mama Cass and "Let It Flow".

I like the Time album for what it is -- a peculiar anomaly in a band with a very varied history. Dave Mason was the oddity member for the fact that he already had a long established career at a solo artist, so it seemed like he was just gigging with the band in his spare time.

Now please excuse my divergence:

I love that you mentioned another anomaly that is Dave Mason/Cass Elliot album! I'm huge fan of all things Cass Elliot, from her her folk days with The Big Three, The Mugwamps, and the Mamas & Papas, and her short-lived solo career. This rather obscure album is just amazing. Cass had many musical friends, including Dave. I love listening to it; my only beef is that Cass only has one solo vocal song on it. But but she can sing harmonies like no other; her indelible voice just shines through.

They performed a handful of shows together at the Fillmore, billed as Mason Cass. I have an original handbill from one of the shows. I wish there was more documentation from these rare performances. Their solo careers were their main priorities. This partnership was just a bizarre a one-off venture, but it's really good! Glad to hear of someone else who knows and likes the album. It was re-released a few years ago.

[Dragon]

I find it difficult to explain a like or dislike for Time given the course of events, circumstances and personnel changes in Fleetwood Mac after Behind the Mask. Although there are great musicians that offered some good songs, I think the time period would have been better suited for solo or side projects.

Zoo; Shakin' the Cage: I do not mind, and actually like, a harder rocking sound after Behind the Mask. I liked the direction this band was going. Another LP would have established the band. The diamond in the rough here is Brett Tuggle, who has handled keyboards, bass, guitar and vocals well for Fleetwood Mac, Lindsey and Stevie.

Christine: I have been aware of rumors Christine may have recorded a solo LP in the 1990s. It would have been similar to In the Meantime with Mick, John and Billy contributing along with George Hawkins and Steve Ferrone. Mentioning Brett, I wonder if he and Christine met during this time.

[SteveMacD]

I find it difficult to explain a like or dislike for Time given the course of events, circumstances and personnel changes in Fleetwood Mac after Behind the Mask. Although there are great musicians that offered some good songs, I think the time period would have been better suited for solo or side projects.
I don't see it.

Future Games: Fleetwood, McVie, McVie, Kirwan, Welch

Rumours: Fleetwood, McVie, McVie, Buckingham, Nicks

Time: Fleetwood, McVie, McVie, Burnette, Bramlette, Mason

Fleetwood, McVie, McVie...FLEETWOOD MAC.

[chiliD]

I don't see it.

Future Games: Fleetwood, McVie, McVie, Kirwan, Welch

Rumours: Fleetwood, McVie, McVie, Buckingham, Nicks

Time: Fleetwood, McVie, McVie, Burnette, Bramlette, Mason

Fleetwood, McVie, McVie...FLEETWOOD MAC.

AMEN! :nod:

[FuzzyPlum]

Just been listening to Time again. It really does feature some good songs. Perhaps Billy's vocals need to be more prominent- he didn't sing enough lead on this album. I think the overall sound of the album was too soft as the majority of the lead vocals were Becca & Christine (Even though past albums featured 2/3 female vocalists, Stevie's harsher voice counter-balanced Christine's more).

[FuzzyPlum]

...and all Christine's contributions are very good by the way. Sooner or Later in particular has just stood out to me as a song I've really under-appreciated in the past.

[PenguinHead]

The promo single is on Ebay with spooky Dennis Wilson rose garden-like cover!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/FLEETWOOD-MAC-I-Do-1995-RARE-EDIT-PROMO-DJ-CD-Single-/260453685931?pt=Music_CDs&hash=item3ca43fdaab

I have that promo. I recall I bought for less than 5 bucks.

[PenguinHead]

Off the top of my head I remember that Dave Mason was in a beat type group The Hellions about when Mick was in The Cheynes, maybe their paths crossed a fair bit starting then. When he was with Traffic they were famous for going out into the country communally living and working to get their sound together, which example FM followed at Kiln House and then Kinfauns. Dave never quite jelled with Traffic and left, and returned, and left again. Not surprising he didn't fit in Fleetwood Mac really either. Not really a group kind of person it would seem, he wrote alone and just needed others to record, that sort of situation.

He had some fairly sizable hit compositions... Feelin' All Right and Hole In My Shoe with Traffic. You Can All Join In was also popular. Solo he charted with his 'Alone Together' album on the Blue Thumb label (home also of Love and Dan Hicks at the time among others) and We Just Disagree got lots of airplay in the late '70s. He also played second guitar on some Jimi Hendrix sessions.

The album with Cass is a gem I think but have seen it totally slagged by some, if nothing else it has it's own unique sound in a sea of early '70s conformity, and some genuinely interesting lyrics that would have been at home on a Television album. I'd never part with it myself!

The Mamas & Papas really set the bar high for self-destructive behaviours it's true, Buckingham and Nicks are fly weights really next to Papa John finding Mama Michelle in bed with Papa Denny shortly after they'd signed a multi album deal with Dunhill. Cass had a thing for Denny who just about killed himself in a drunken motorcycle accident the next day (and you can see his chest bandage in some early promo photos). All this before the first album release. Basically Cass got out of there as soon as possible which was having fulfilled the Dunhill contract (only they added a fifth album on to it and she had to go back). John almost killed her making her do endless takes in the studio, and the pressure to diet on top. The same people helped kill Karen Carpenter is all I can say.

To add to the drama, Michelle was fired from the group soon after the success of their first album because she was ****ing around with The Byrd's Gene Clark. They did a few shows and started recording a new album with her replacement , Jill Gibson, their producer Lou Adler's girlfriend. They even had an album cover mocked up with Jill in it. Michelle begged her way back into the group. The resulting album has vocals with both Michelle and Jill. And Cass got busted for bringing pot to the UK, and their shows there were cancelled. She died, while on a solo tour in London in the same apartment Keith Moon died in years later.

Two years later, after they had all gone their separate ways, each of them was sued for a million dollars because they walked away from their record contract while owing the company one more album. They had to regroup one more time to avoid the law suit. What really sucks for fans is that there are no bootleg recordings of any of their live shows (which were very few in their short-live career -about 35 concert appearances in total). There is hardly any information about their shows, tour schedules, set lists, reviews etc...only one or two photos of them on stage.

[SteveMacD]

What really sucks for fans is that there are no bootleg recordings of any of their live shows (which were very few in their short-live career -about 35 concert appearances in total). There is hardly any information about their shows, tour schedules, set lists, reviews etc...only one or two photos of them on stage.
Do you know about the Monterey International Pop Festival box set from 1992? Their entire set, with a cameo from Scott McKenzie, is on it. You can find them on eBay.

http://photo.sing365.com/music/picture.nsf/Janis-Joplin-Monterey-International-Pop-Festival-Cover/48256C71003578A24825695900307249/$file/Monterey+International+Pop+Festival.jpg

ETA: Here's the set-list

Straight Shooter
Got a Feelin'
California Dreamin'
I Call Your Name
Monday, Monday
San Francisco (Be Sure to Wear Flowers in Your Hair)
Dancing in the Street

[louielouie2000]

Christine: I have been aware of rumors Christine may have recorded a solo LP in the 1990s. It would have been similar to In the Meantime with Mick, John and Billy contributing along with George Hawkins and Steve Ferrone. Mentioning Brett, I wonder if he and Christine met during this time.

This is the first time I've ever heard about this- do you have any supporting information?

[PenguinHead]

Do you know about the Monterey International Pop Festival box set from 1992? Their entire set, with a cameo from Scott McKenzie, is on it. You can find them on eBay.

http://photo.sing365.com/music/picture.nsf/Janis-Joplin-Monterey-International-Pop-Festival-Cover/48256C71003578A24825695900307249/$file/Monterey+International+Pop+Festival.jpg

ETA: Here's the set-list

Straight Shooter
Got a Feelin'
California Dreamin'
I Call Your Name
Monday, Monday
San Francisco (Be Sure to Wear Flowers in Your Hair)
Dancing in the Street

Thanks! I fully aware of it. I have several copies of it, including a rare original poster from the event. They also performed Somebody Groovy. A few years ago a DVD set was released, featuring the Festival movie, as well as amazing outtake performances and interviews. I highly recommend it to anyone who wants to transport themselves back to a the height of the flower power era.

It was only recorded for the documentary of the Festival. ( John and Michelle were on the board of directors.) This was in the latter part of their career. Busy working the Festival, they didn't have time to rehearse for the show, even though they were the headliners featured to close the 3 day event.

Denny flew in from Canada at the last moment before they appeared on stage. To make matter worse, Jimi Hendrix performed prior to them, and the stage was left in a mess. There were technical problems, including Michelle's mike being faulty. And it wasn't their normal touring band,which consisted of the much lauded/in demand Wrecking Crew.

They went on to do a few more live shows before disbanding. But they sadly admitted that this was their worst performance. How ironic that it is their only performance ever recorded. They prided themselves for being able to reasonably replicate their record performances live on stage, despite all the studio overdubs.

Lots of bands from their era have archives/bootleg live shows. But the Mamas & Papas weren't a heavy road band (they have their fill of that in their struggling folk days). They did a few short, small show stint tours in big markets over a two year span -1966-1967.

But there is no evidence of these shows anywhere, other than a few news clips/reviews. It would be a like finding the holey grail if a recording one of their shows when they were at their peak surfaced. There is almost no documentation - not even of their set lists. It's very frustrating for fans.

[WatchChain]

To add to the drama, Michelle was fired from the group soon after the success of their first album because she was ****ing around with The Byrd's Gene Clark. They did a few shows and started recording a new album with her replacement , Jill Gibson, their producer Lou Adler's girlfriend. They even had an album cover mocked up with Jill in it. Michelle begged her way back into the group. The resulting album has vocals with both Michelle and Jill. And Cass got busted for bringing pot to the UK, and their shows there were cancelled. She died, while on a solo tour in London in the same apartment Keith Moon died in years later.

Two years later, after they had all gone their separate ways, each of them was sued for a million dollars because they walked away from their record contract while owing the company one more album. They had to regroup one more time to avoid the law suit. What really sucks for fans is that there are no bootleg recordings of any of their live shows (which were very few in their short-live career -about 35 concert appearances in total). There is hardly any information about their shows, tour schedules, set lists, reviews etc...only one or two photos of them on stage.

PenguinHead, do you know anything about Mama Cass' connection to Voytek Frykowski and Abigail Folger, who were victims of The Manson Family at Sharon Tate's house? I heard that Cass had a boyfriend who was basically using her for the money and he had connections to Sharon Tate and her friends. Supposedly, Cass also lived in Benedict or Laurel Canyon.

[PenguinHead]

PenguinHead, do you know anything about Mama Cass' connection to Voytek Frykowski and Abigail Folger, who were victims of The Manson Family at Sharon Tate's house? I heard that Cass had a boyfriend who was basically using her for the money and he had connections to Sharon Tate and her friends. Supposedly, Cass also lived in Benedict or Laurel Canyon.

Interesting! Well I know Cass had a house in Laurel Canyon. She was essentially the welcoming committee for all the English rock stars who came to the US. There are photos of Graham Nash, Joni Mitchel, Steven Stills, Neil Young and Eric Clapton etc...hanging out at her house. Cass was a social matchmaker bringing people together.

Cass had a boyfriend who was not of the standard she deserved. Given that it was small community of people in the entertainment business, I'm sure she and her boyfriend crossed paths with Sharon Tate and her associates. John and Michelle Phillips hosted big parties at their house. They were friends with Sharon, so it's likely they were all part of that that social scene to a certain extent.

If I had access to my books, I could give you more detailed answers. I love studying that era of music/history.

[Murrow]

Time, as it was released, was pretty much a "compromise" album. WB had rejected the original album that was submitted with the title Another Link In The Chain due to Christine's complete absence from the album. It was all Bekka, Billy & Dave's compositions.

Fascinating, I never knew that before. I wonder what the rejected songs were like.

It seems a shame to me that Billy, having contributed five songs to BTM, seems limited to hiding in Bekka's shadow on Time. DM meanwhile had to co-write his contributions with outside writers. You didn't sense the same organic unity between Burnette and Mason as you did with Burnette and Vito. As for Bekka, well only one of her three solo leads was written by her at all, while one was supplied by an outside writer and the other was just an old song of her dad's that she wrote an extra verse for.

BTM was a much more organically joined album with members collaborating on songwriting together a lot more.

Time is listenable and I was sorry to see it on one guy's ten worst of all time list but it didn't surprise me how quickly the line-up collapsed.

[SteveMacD]

I just skimmed the liner notes again and saw Neale Heywood mentioned. :shrug:

This album gets weirder every time I look at it.

[Turn It On]

I've always found Lindsey to be the most bizarre addition to Time. What was it he did, again? Backing vocals on Nothing Without You? Yeah, weird.

I also find it funny how everyone conveniently forgets about Lindsey's contributions to Time, BTM and The Chain Boxset whenever they talk about his time away from the band.

[Mr Scarrott]

I've always found Lindsey to be the most bizarre addition to Time. What was it he did, again? Backing vocals on Nothing Without You? Yeah, weird.

He's credited as being on Nothing Without You but I can barely make him out on that track. The odd thing is that I swear I can hear his voice on Winds of Change too. If it's not Lindsey, I don't know who it is. I asked Richard Dashut- no response though.

Lindsey's Hitchcockian blink-and-you-miss-it vocal backing on Paper Doll enhances the song, but only just. It's not the greatest, is it?

[Turn It On]

He's credited as being on Nothing Without You but I can barely make him out on that track. The odd thing is that I swear I can hear his voice on Winds of Change too. If it's not Lindsey, I don't know who it is. I asked Richard Dashut- no response though.

Lindsey's Hitchcockian blink-and-you-miss-it vocal backing on Paper Doll enhances the song, but only just. It's not the greatest, is it?

I'm actually a big fan of Paper Doll, although I concede that it's not exactly going to be winning any awards anytime soon. I've always loved Lindsey's guitar on Behind the Mask as well, it makes it a far superior song than it otherwise would've been.

[Murrow]

He's credited as being on Nothing Without You but I can barely make him out on that track. The odd thing is that I swear I can hear his voice on Winds of Change too. If it's not Lindsey, I don't know who it is. I asked Richard Dashut- no response though.

Lindsey's Hitchcockian blink-and-you-miss-it vocal backing on Paper Doll enhances the song, but only just. It's not the greatest, is it?

Cr\ikey! Didn't know he was on it!

[Mr Scarrott]

Cr\ikey! Didn't know he was on it!

His overdubs are very subtle- listen out for him singing/whispering "else" at 0:57 and 2:51. I didn't notice him until somebody else pointed it out.

I can't agree with Turn it on re Behind the Mask though. By a long stretch, I think that mysterious song is the most deserving of being in the band's canon from that album. I like Lindsey's contribution but it seems a bit phoned-in, weedy, almost. I wonder if he's playing the bit of acoustic-sounding guitar at the end- it's very Lindsey-esque.

The hypnotic Make me a mask I do like very much, however. Too bad that it's A Fleetwood Mac song in name only. It's a pity he didn't appear on Heart of Stone or Love Shines, though.

[Turn It On]

I would have loved to have heard him on Love Shines and Heart Of Stone, I love both those songs.

Mind you, I've always wondered how a whole album with that line up would have been. Chris, Mick, John, Billy Rick. I think it would have been quite good, based on the limited evidence we have.

[wetcamelfood]

I would have loved to have heard him on Love Shines and Heart Of Stone, I love both those songs.

Mind you, I've always wondered how a whole album with that line up would have been. Chris, Mick, John, Billy Rick. I think it would have been quite good, based on the limited evidence we have.

There is doubt that Rick is on LS & HOS and that any lead guitar on those tracks may actually even be an unknown session player.

John

[Murrow]

There is doubt that Rick is on LS & HOS and that any lead guitar on those tracks may actually even be an unknown session player.

John

Definitely no Rick on those two tracks. BB in Love Shines video though.

Sigh, that BTM line-up were good enough to muster another album or two imo.

[Turn It On]

I knew something about that didn't sound right. No Rick, of course.

Billy, Christine, Mick and John. I'd have bought that album.

[becca]

Hey PenguinHead...

I'm sure I've seen some clips of Cass and Dave Mason doing material from their album on some old tv show. It flashed by in some documentary about Cass. I wonder if there might be anything full length on YouTube? She also appeared with John Sebastian on some show doing Darling Companion. There is a version of 'Didn't Want To Have To Do It' with Cass on lead vocals that was recorded in NYC between the Mugwumps ending and the Lovin' Spoonful forming, in fact there are two takes one where she doubles the vocal is the better... nice guitar by Sebastian and/or Zal on it too! Let me know and I could shoot them to you via email if you don't have them. I think the Ms&Ps really didn't like themselves live because they couldn't double or triple the vocals as they sometimes did in studio. The Fifth Dimension benefited from inheriting all their studio people, so something good came out of their big bust up.

[PenguinHead]

Hey PenguinHead...

I'm sure I've seen some clips of Cass and Dave Mason doing material from their album on some old tv show. It flashed by in some documentary about Cass. I wonder if there might be anything full length on YouTube? She also appeared with John Sebastian on some show doing Darling Companion. There is a version of 'Didn't Want To Have To Do It' with Cass on lead vocals that was recorded in NYC between the Mugwumps ending and the Lovin' Spoonful forming, in fact there are two takes one where she doubles the vocal is the better... nice guitar by Sebastian and/or Zal on it too! Let me know and I could shoot them to you via email if you don't have them. I think the Ms&Ps really didn't like themselves live because they couldn't double or triple the vocals as they sometimes did i TVn studio. The Fifth Dimension benefited from inheriting all their studio people, so something good came out of their big bust up.

Sorry for not responding sooner.

What TV show Cass and Dave were on? Was it live or lip-synced? I can't recall ever seeing it.

I discovered the two versions of Didn't Want to Have to Do It years ago. Thank you for the offer though! I could never place the time frame they were recorded.

Her duet, Darling Companion, with John Stewart was a performance on her first TV special, which also featured Joni Mitchel,Mary Travis (of Peter,Paul and...),and others. A DVD of the show was released a few years ago. She made one more TV special that hasn't been released. Hopefully it will see the light of day.

By the time the Mamas and Papas became successful, they were individually road weary from touring in their various folk groups. Their records and TV appearances were keeping them in the public eye. Their entire existence lasted only three years but produced four albums. Their tours consisted of series of short stints of five or six shows in major markets. Cass was quoted,saying they that worked really hard to sound much like their records when they performed live.

Of course they couldn't exactly replicate the craftsmanship of their studio records, musically or vocally, in a live performance, but it's reasonable to think they could still sound good. The messy Monterey Pop performances reveals a glimmer of evidence to that notion ( despite no rehearsals and Michelle's faulty mike). Their issue wasn't about the quality of their live performances. It was because they really weren't much of touring band. And much like Fleetwood Mac, their group dynamic was fraught with tension.

[PenguinHead]

Hey PenguinHead...

I'm sure I've seen some clips of Cass and Dave Mason doing material from their album on some old tv show. It flashed by in some documentary about Cass. I wonder if there might be anything full length on YouTube? She also appeared with John Sebastian on some show doing Darling Companion. There is a version of 'Didn't Want To Have To Do It' with Cass on lead vocals that was recorded in NYC between the Mugwumps ending and the Lovin' Spoonful forming, in fact there are two takes one where she doubles the vocal is the better... nice guitar by Sebastian and/or Zal on it too! Let me know and I could shoot them to you via email if you don't have them. I think the Ms&Ps really didn't like themselves live because they couldn't double or triple the vocals as they sometimes did in studio. The Fifth Dimension benefited from inheriting all their studio people, so something good came out of their big bust up.

Sorry for not responding sooner.

What TV show Cass and Dave were on? Was it live or lip-synced? I can't recall ever seeing it.

I discovered the two versions of Didn't Want to Have to Do It years ago. Thank you for the offer though! I could never place the time frame they were recorded.

Her duet, Darling Companion, with John Stewart was a performance on her first TV special, which also featured Joni Mitchel,Mary Travis (of Peter,Paul and...),and others. A DVD of the show was released a few years ago. She made one more TV special that hasn't been released. Hopefully it will see the light of day.

By the time the Mamas and Papas became successful, they were individually road weary from touring in their various folk groups. Their records and TV appearances were keeping them in the public eye. Their entire existence lasted only three years but produced four albums. Their tours consisted of series of short stints of five or six shows in major markets. Cass was quoted,saying they that worked really hard to sound much like their records when they performed live.

Of course they couldn't exactly replicate the craftsmanship of their studio records, musically or vocally, in a live performance, but it's reasonable to think they could still sound good. The messy Monterey Pop performances reveals a glimmer of evidence to that notion ( despite no rehearsals and Michelle's faulty mike). Their issue wasn't about the quality of their live performances. It was because they really weren't much of touring band. And much like Fleetwood Mac, their group dynamic was fraught with tension.

[becca]

Here she is with Sebastian, I don't know the one with John Stewart

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/WrTNyb8ZejA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Didn't Want To Have To Do It is late 1964/early 1965 according to the studio guy with the master tapes.

There was also a tv special early on with the M & Ps doing all Rogers & Hart material or something along those lines, and also a Barry McGuire show before that where they are mainly backup singers for him. It would sure be nice to see all these things collected up for DVD but there's a much more recent Andy Kaufman special I've been waiting for to see on DVD that for some reason never has been, usually some legal b.s. behind the scenes prevents things from happening.

I believe Dave & Cass appeared together on The Tonight Show and The Andy Williams Show. There was an appearance of John Denver with Bill & Taffy on something similar, and later on one with Cass too (Midnight Special). It was probably an A&E biography on Cass that included these clips, don't think anyone has done one on Dave Mason.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/1Q66pJ2Whm8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[moon]

And now I'm writing here because I finally listened to this strange album...

Hi! During this quarantine time I've been searching for other FM albums that were really unknown for me, like Kiln House, Behind The Mask and this one too. And I liked it! Of course it can't be compared with our most favourite albums, but I think it's good.
It's hard to know how start with this, uffff...
It was a strange line-up. I can't understand the mix of musicians, but the result was...yeah, good, I guess.

- Christine's work was simply amazing. After listening to the Buckingham-McVie album, I'm still impressed with some things that sound very similar in both albums (am I crazy?). And she took perfectly the fact of the Compact Disc and the chance to put longer songs in one album. Sooner Or Later is the best example, and I think it's her best song. I Do and Nights In Estoril are other really really great jobs (And don't tell me that Hollywood does not sound like a Buckingham/McVie song!).

- The Mason/Bramlett/Burnette work is good. Talkin' To My Heart, Blow By Blow, I Wonder Why sound really great!! And I Got It In For You is woooah an amazing song!! :eek:
I'm really convinced that Billy would have a better fate with the band if the times -errrr- where he played were not times where FM was not important at all, and other bands and styles were sounding better. Maybe the same with Bekka and Rick, because Dave...you know, he had a story with Traffic so maybe this FM experience wouldn't steal some reputation...

- These Strange Times. I love the song. I love the fact that Fleetwood speaks, his daughter and Bekka did backing vocals, he plays (really??) the guitar, and of course, that it's a long song, a good way to close. I like long songs as the closing moments for an album. And, in a time where bands like Era, Enya and others were playing a lot with backing vocals, I find the voices of Lucy and Bekka with this style of sound.

That's all I guess!


Mark.

[Villavic]

- Christine's work was simply amazing. After listening to the [I]Buckingham-McVie album, I'm still impressed with some things that sound very similar in both albums (am I crazy?). And she took perfectly the fact of the Compact Disc and the chance to put longer songs in one album. Sooner Or Later is the best example, and I think it's her best song. I Do and Nights In Estoril are other really really great jobs (And don't tell me that Hollywood does not sound like a Buckingham/McVie song!).



I still think the "Quintela years" provided almost the best of her work.

[HomerMcvie]

I'm really convinced that Billy would have a better fate with the band if the times -errrr- where he played were not times where FM was not important at all, and other bands and styles were sounding better. Maybe the same with Bekka and Rick, because Dave...you know, he had a story with Traffic so maybe this FM experience wouldn't steal some reputation...
Mark.

No offense towards Billy, but I think he's always lacked the "IT" factor that it takes to be a star. He's usually somebody's second banana(like John Fogerty's). He's had several solo albums out(I see them in the used record shops in Nashville all the time), but I don't think he's ever had a hit.

He seems to be Mick's safe backup. Although not this past time! He's getting old(and looking pretty rough lately - and had heart problems), and after the fiasco of $tevie forcing Dick to kick Lindsey out of the band, Mick needed younger and bigger fire power, to keep FM selling out arenas.

Billy was pissed. As well he should have been. Dick has no soul.

[SteveMacD]

I don't think he's ever had a hit.
He co-wrote “Do I Ever Cross Your Mind,” although I don’t know if that was hit.

Mick needed younger and bigger fire power, to keep FM selling out arenas.
Neil is only five years younger than Billy, so I don’t think age was a major factor.

Mick’s made it known that he still wants to make another album (as have Christine, Mike, and Neil). Billy had a very fair chance with the band but wasn’t a good creative fit, based on Mick saying that he always felt like he had to reign in Billy’s country tendencies. If you had a legacy pop-rock band, who would you rather have in the driver’s seat: Billy Burnette or Neil Finn?

[moon]

I still think the "Quintela years" provided almost the best of her work.

Totally agree!! But I will always love a bit more what she did on Mirage too:laugh:

[jbrownsjr]

My favorite Christine Period is 1973-1984

I know, there's a lot of excellent material of hers after that. But that's my core.

Time brought out the gem Sooner or Later. I love that song so much. Wish Mick would have flushed out the drum solo more at the end.

[Macfan4life]

My favorite Christine Period is 1973-1984

I know, there's a lot of excellent material of hers after that. But that's my core.

Time brought out the gem Sooner or Later. I love that song so much. Wish Mick would have flushed out the drum solo more at the end.
Even though I am not crazy about the album Tango, I would have to include 1987 for the years you mentioned. Chris's are my only favorites besides the title track. She brought her A game for Tango and was ready to play. But its really hard to pick an era with Chris because she does not put out or record bad songs. They may not be my favorites but I respect the writing and the music. She always has good songs no matter what.

[moon]

...she does not put out or record bad songs. They may not be my favorites but I respect the writing and the music. She always has good songs no matter what.

Totally agree with this!!:blob2:

[Murrow]

What I'd be curious to know is what the album would have sounded like if Warners hadn't insisted Chris have some involvement (if you doubt that's what happened check Mick's more recent autobiography).

Were there recordings of other compositions by Billy etc that got pushed aside to make room for Chris's material. This I cannot help wondering...

[Mr Scarrott]

I think I would have had a hard time mentally accepting a version of Time as a Fleetwood Mac album that only had Billy Burnette as a vocal holdover from their previous (and worst ever, in my humble opinion) album... yes, Mick and John would have been on it, but come on...

In fact there is evidence that Christine was to be involved in 1993 with what was to become Time - go to about 8;10 on this video (filmed just before the Clinton inauguration). There was also an interview with her at around the time of The Dance when she said that her participation in the recording of Time was a contractual obligation..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Lc7hE9TIr0

"It's quite well publicised that I had planned not to tour again with Fleetwood Mac, so my excuse is that a girl can always change her mind.so you know, i don't know I would like to do a few concerts here and there and certainly pursue a solo career as well..hopefully Fleetwood Mac are going in the studio in April or thereabouts to make another album"

I think this was around the time that Billy had left which might explain the absence of his guitars from her songs and the use of Michael Thompson instead...Dave and Bekka joined in 1994, initially without the involvement of Billy, so the non-Christine tracks may have been recorded in 1994/5 with a few overdubs here and there on the Christine tracks.

Just my theory..but I am inclined to believe that Christine's tracks were recorded first, not that her songs were then recorded later to rescue the album. Not that they did, in terms of sales...

I think by that point (January 1993) Stevie may have pulled the plug on recording with them as well as touring... but it's all a bit murky...

[Murrow]

I think I would have had a hard time mentally accepting a version of Time as a Fleetwood Mac album that only had Billy Burnette as a vocal holdover from their previous (and worst ever, in my humble opinion) album... yes, Mick and John would have been on it, but come on...

In fact there is evidence that Christine was to be involved in 1993 with what was to become Time - go to about 8;10 on this video (filmed just before the Clinton inauguration). There was also an interview with her at around the time of The Dance when she said that her participation in the recording of Time was a contractual obligation..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Lc7hE9TIr0

"It's quite well publicised that I had planned not to tour again with Fleetwood Mac, so my excuse is that a girl can always change her mind.so you know, i don't know I would like to do a few concerts here and there and certainly pursue a solo career as well..hopefully Fleetwood Mac are going in the studio in April or thereabouts to make another album"

I think this was around the time that Billy had left which might explain the absence of his guitars from her songs and the use of Michael Thompson instead...Dave and Bekka joined in 1994, initially without the involvement of Billy, so the non-Christine tracks may have been recorded in 1994/5 with a few overdubs here and there on the Christine tracks.

Just my theory..but I am inclined to believe that Christine's tracks were recorded first, not that her songs were then recorded later to rescue the album. Not that they did, in terms of sales...

I think by that point (January 1993) Stevie may have pulled the plug on recording with them as well as touring... but it's all a bit murky...

I recall Q Magazine announcing Dave and Bekka joining in September 1993, initially with an inaccurate claim that Delaney Bramlett had also joined. In December they shared that photo with all of the Time lineup sans Billy posing with fake beards. Then the following year they played with no Chris but Billy back on board at the World Cup concert.

I was under impression that the reason for Chris's songs being done separately was her dislike for Dave Mason.

I have to confess that I had been going by this misleading phrase on Wikipedia "Mick Fleetwood mentioned in his autobiography that Christine McVie did not originally intend to participate on the album (she had technically quit in 1990) but that Warner Bros. had insisted she appear. As such, her five featured songs were recorded separately from the full band..."

Cross-checking with my Play On ebook it appears Mick made no such claim about Warners.

Also Stevie quit the group in late 1990 over a disagreement re Silver Springs and the rights to it. I'm not aware that she made any noise about rejoining until The Dance (the Clinton do notwithstanding).

[SteveMacD]

I wonder when Billy’s involvement started related to Christine pulling out.

[Mr Scarrott]

Here's the line Christine took in 1997 according to an interview in Mojo, which clearly implies that her hands were tied. So Warners may have forced her to appear on an album she didn't really want to do, although she was under no obligation to tour..

Also appearing on Time was one Christine McVie, who politely notes that her appearance, “was something that I had not volunteered to do; it was contractual. I don't like to harp on it very much, but I thought the music was starting to get a little strange, the choices a little funny. I wasn't really enjoying that particular incarnation of the band, and I left.” At that point, the former Miss Perfect's plans included moving back to England - she's had a home in Kent for five years - and pursuing the hobbies one would expect of a former member of Chicken Shack: "Painting, illustration, I'd like to write a book, I'd like to go to cooking school. I know it sounds utterly absurd, but I really love cooking and I take it very seriously.” Plus a solo album “sometime before the next millennium”.

http://www.fleetwoodmac.net/fwm/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=616&Itemid=9

[Murrow]

I wonder when Billy’s involvement started related to Christine pulling out.

I guess Mick needed someone to fill out the touring lineup and Chris wasn't willing so Billy had to be persuaded back. As far as he was concerned he'd already left when he did his Coming Home album in 1993. I don't think he had any issue with Chris if that's what you're suggesting.

[SteveMacD]

I guess Mick needed someone to fill out the touring lineup and Chris wasn't willing so Billy had to be persuaded back. As far as he was concerned he'd already left when he did his Coming Home album in 1993. I don't think he had any issue with Chris if that's what you're suggesting.

There was a Goldmine interview, mostly about Dave, that said Billy asked Mick if he could come back in early ‘94.

I know there was no bad blood between Christine and Billy. He was on ITM, after all. The fact they didn’t write and sing on together on “Time” was a little surprising, which is why I was curious about the timeline.

If anything, given that Richard, Christine, and Bekka (who Billy has known since she was 3) had problems with Dave, I wouldn’t be surprised if any of those three, or even Delaney, asked/pressured Billy to ask Mick to rejoin to act as a buffer.

[Murrow]

There was a Goldmine interview, mostly about Dave, that said Billy asked Mick if he could come back in early ‘94.

I know there was no bad blood between Christine and Billy. He was on ITM, after all. The fact they didn’t write and sing on together on “Time” was a little surprising, which is why I was curious about the timeline.

If anything, given that Richard, Christine, and Bekka (who Billy has known since she was 3) had problems with Dave, I wouldn’t be surprised if any of those three, or even Delaney, asked/pressured Billy to ask Mick to rejoin to act as a buffer.

If only Rick hadn't quite after BTM it could have been a much more peaceful affair. An album with the Time line-up but Rick instead of Dave... that I would have been VERY interested to hear!