Anyone Else...

[GreenMagic]

reluctant to keep following Lindsey as an artist following Ken Callait's book?

Sorry I forgot to introduce myself. I've been lurking here the last couple of months but never bothered to register till now. As you can tell from my name I'm a huge fan of the Peter Green Era.

I used to be dismissive of the Rumours lineup years ago. Cause my musical tastes tended to be more Alternative, Post Punk Art rock stuff like My Bloody Valentine, Roxy Music, X, Public Image Limited. And then years ago I got into Power Pop like Big Star Raspberries and The Beach Boys.

It wasnt until hearing Tusk I became a fan of the Stevie Lindsey lineup. I can appreciate Rumours and self-titled album now. Although I'm majorly burnt out on those two because of radio, grocery stores playing them to death. And I loved Lindsey's solo stuff.

Anyway, getting back to what I was saying. I read Carol Anne's book and thought it had too many holes in it for her accusations of Lindsey's to be true. Then reading Ken's book, he talks about Lindsey getting mad and choking him. He also discusses how another girlfriend beside Carol accused Lindsey of hitting her.

To be fair I guess, Lindsey was doing lots of coke at that time into the 80's. From what I've seen with my family members abuse. coke can ramp you up. Make you irritable easily and more violence prone. And in Anne Heche's book she never mentioned any physical abuse form Lindsey. So I'm pretty sure he was clean the time he dated Anne.

So, a lot of the physical abuse could have been induced from drugs. I just dont know anymore. If Ken's saying abuse took place, I'm inclined to believe him. I dont think he has any reason to lie.

I'm lost. Even if it was brought on by drug abuse, I'm not sure I can behind someone who hits women. I understand musicians are human. I look the other way most of the time when it comes to minor indiscretions. I love Bob Dylan and Bruce, but they are/were huge womanizers. I dont care about that cause most musicians are.

The only thing that can stop me from being a fan is spousal/child abuse. I stopped liking John Lennon when I found out he severely verbally abused Julian.

Should we look the other way and keep being fans of Lindsey if his physical abuse was in the past and induced by major drug abuse? I guess I need some perspective.

[redtulip]

Personally, I think Lindsey is a changed man these days. He's settled down, married, had children, which I think has mellowed him. I also think he's been through a lot of therapy (just an idea I get from some of the things he says), that most likely addressed his rage issues.

There is never an excuse for abuse, but it was a much different time for Lindsey in the late 70s/early 80s. He had extreme pressure on him to produce hits for Fleetwood Mac, there was a lot of personal turmoil from the imploding of all of the relationships in the band, he was drinking a lot and doing cocaine. I'm sure all of that exacerbated any rage issues he already had. I think he's done a lot of work on himself since then to overcome these issues and change. He certainly seems happy these days and his family life seems to have been very calming and good for him.

[McTrouble]

GreenMagic - sorry if I sound unwelcoming to a new member, but I have to ask if you joined The Ledge merely to whip up another Lindsey bashing????

Did you think we didn't already know about this stuff? That it hasn't already been discussed to death?

Anyway, you will see from Lindsey's forum that his fans remain true and loyal to him - 'nuff said.

[WildHearted]

If the allegations are true, then I do not respect that version of Lindsey as a man, but that isn't going to stop me from respecting him as an artist. And likewise, I respect him as a person presently (as much as one can respect someone they have never met) because I think that it's clear that whatever happened in the past is in fact in the past, and he's definitely a very different character who has done a lot of work on themselves.

So, in short, no, it isn't going to stop me from following him. I'm not going to excuse his past behavior, but I do not think the Lindsey of yore is the Lindsey of today (no matter how little Stevie thinks they've both changed :lol:) so it doesn't affect my perception of his work.

[louielouie2000]

Should we look the other way and keep being fans of Lindsey if his physical abuse was in the past and induced by major drug abuse? I guess I need some perspective.

Don't forget, Mick Fleetwood's book also chronicles Lindsey's violence towards women... even John McVie spoke of these incidents in on camera interviews. So it's not just Carol Ann Harris, Ken Caillat, and Stevie Nicks who have spoken openly about this subject.

For what it's worth, I think Lindsey is still very high strung, but it would seem his violent outbursts have ended. I'd point to his no longer using hardcore drugs, maturing, and becoming a husband and father. I don't think he's that insecure, tortured young man anymore. If I believed for an instant Lindsey was a wifebeater, I can assure you I would not spend my money on his albums or concerts.

[mezzoforte]

Oh, there's no doubt in my mind that Lindsey was abusive to Carol Ann and probably others. He's probably reformed after getting off drugs and doing a lot of therapy, but that doesn't undo the past, and I absolutely find it troubling.

Personally, I can separate that from the music and consider myself a huge fan. I understand why others may not. This one is a personal call.

[GreenMagic]

@McTrouble -

I'm not trying to stir up any trouble. I'm a big fan of Lindsey's. I just wanted some perspectives, because I was feeling uneasy about listening to his music after learning that.

I just read Ken's book day before yesterday. So it came as an honest shock. I've never read Fleetwood's book as it is out of print. Also, I've never seen any interview with John McVie or Stevie discussing it.

I just needed some opinions. I usually look the other way when artists make minor errors in their life. But physical abuse isnt minor, it's wrong. I guess I can forgive him that since drugs were influencing his bad behavior. And he seems to have gotten clean and have therapy.

But if it ever emerges one day he's pulling this stuff with his wife, count me out as a fan. I do think he cleaned his act up.

So you all's opinions were helpful. And that in essence is what I was looking for. :woohoo:

[HejiraNYC]

At this point, all we really have are anecdotes, albeit, a number of anecdotes from a number of different people that, in their totality, appear to paint the picture of a man with anger management issues and a history of physical violence. However, there is no actual, tangible evidence that any of these episodes really occurred. The listener/reader is left to his/her own conclusions based on the information presented.

I would like to think that Lindsey's infractions have been grossly exaggerated for the sake of selling books. Maybe it's just me, but I have a hard time believing that slight Lindsey, perhaps 135 pounds soaking wet during the Rumours era, would have had the audacity to try and choke another man. And the mental image of scrawny Lindsey chasing (as per Mick's book) Stevie around the block, a platformed blur of hair and chiffon, seems downright comical despite the very serious undertones of the altercation. Perhaps we would be less forgiving if these stories were being told about a much larger, stronger, intimidating man? When I picture Lindsey fighting physically, I can't help but assume that he would make lobster claws with his hands and try to peck his opponent into submission.

[michelej1]

Also, I've never seen any interview with John McVie or Stevie discussing it.



I don't think there has been an interview with John McVie discussing it. On Rock Family tree, John made a strangling gesture right in the context of Stevie saying she ran across the room and grabbed Lindsey. I think he might have been referring to what Stevie said she did.

Stevie has discussed getting into an argument with Lindsey when he said he was leaving FM. The whole band was inside Christine's house. She says she jumped up and grabbed him and then he chased her outside, threw her over the hood of a car and she thought he was going to kill her, until their managers separated them. Based on the chronology in the interview the band did in the nineties, John seemed to have caught the first part of the fight and it looks like he was talking about Stevie grabbing Lindsey when he described someone (John doesn't say who) making a strangling gesture.

Rock Family Trees is on Youtube.

Stevie says: -

Because of that guilt I've always had about not leaving Fleetwood Mac..I flew out of the couch and across the room to seriously attack him..and I did..I mean.I'm not real scary..but I can be fairly ferocious...and I grabbed him..y'know.....which almost got me killed.

John McVie:

It got ugly...physically ugly..(John makes the gesture of strangling someone).

Johh makes that gesture right after Stevie talks about grabbing Lindsey. Stevie finishes her story:

He ended up chasing me all the way out of Christine's maze like house and down the street..and back up the street..and he threw me against the car.and I screamed horrible obscenities at him..and I thought he was going to kill me..and I think he probably thought he was going to kill me too...and I said to him.if the rest of the people in the band don't get you..my family will..my dad and my brother will kill you.

Then John mentions Lindsey for the first time while describing the fight. He says, he told Lindsey, "Why don't you just leave?" The joke being that he meant for Lindsey to leave the room, not the band.


Michele

[HomerMcvie]

GreenMagic - sorry if I sound unwelcoming to a new member, but I have to ask if you joined The Ledge merely to whip up another Lindsey bashing????

Did you think we didn't already know about this stuff? That it hasn't already been discussed to death?

Anyway, you will see from Lindsey's forum that his fans remain true and loyal to him - 'nuff said.

Viv, this is a discussion forum, obviously for both pro and con.

I realize that you worship the ground he walks on, but you shouldn't be so defensive of him, IMHO. Ignore the thread, if it drives you batty!:lol::wavey::xoxo:

[WildHearted]

At this point, all we really have are anecdotes, albeit, a number of anecdotes from a number of different people that, in their totality, appear to paint the picture of a man with anger management issues and a history of physical violence. However, there is no actual, tangible evidence that any of these episodes really occurred. The listener/reader is left to his/her own conclusions based on the information presented.

I would like to think that Lindsey's infractions have been grossly exaggerated for the sake of selling books. Maybe it's just me, but I have a hard time believing that slight Lindsey, perhaps 135 pounds soaking wet during the Rumours era, would have had the audacity to try and choke another man. And the mental image of scrawny Lindsey chasing (as per Mick's book) Stevie around the block, a platformed blur of hair and chiffon, seems downright comical despite the very serious undertones of the altercation. Perhaps we would be less forgiving if these stories were being told about a much larger, stronger, intimidating man? When I picture Lindsey fighting physically, I can't help but assume that he would make lobster claws with his hands and try to peck his opponent into submission.

Stevie herself is tiny - 5'1", as I'm sure we all know. So the fact that Lindsey is slender/lean doesn't do anything water down the allegations, in my mind. Lindsey's much larger than she.... but regardless, that's all beside the point, anyway. It doesn't matter how large the attacker is... the point is, they are attacking someone. I personally don't think there's anything necessarily comical about ANYONE seriously seeking out to harm someone physically (or mentally, emotionally, etc for that matter), whether they're a 12 year old girl or a 30 year old man.

[michelej1]

Maybe it's just me, but I have a hard time believing that slight Lindsey, perhaps 135 pounds soaking wet during the Rumours era, would have had the audacity to try and choke another man.

And if he had the audacity, the way it's described, Ken and Lindsey weren't next to each other. It wasn't like Lindsey made a quick gesture, a sudden strangle. Lindsey got irate because Ken did what Lindsey asked him to do and erased a tape and, upon learning this, then came from another room to choke Ken. It sounds like Ken had plenty of time to stop or avoid him if it was really a physical assault.

Michele

[GreenMagic]

The only thing that troubles me about the accusations is Mick and John knowing about it.

I understand to maintain peace in a band you stay out of each other's personal lives. (EX: The Beatles never vocally passed Judgement on John when he divorced Cyn. Even though privately they thought it was crappy the way he handled the divorce)

Hypothetically, if I am in a band, I stay out of a fellow band mate's perosnal life. But when I see or get strong evidence of him being physically abusive to people, there will be a talk or something worse.

Josh Homme from Queens Of The Stone Age kicked out a long time band member when he had irefutable evidence the dude was beating his girlfriend. Josh gets the highest respect from me for doing that. I understand being loyalty to friends.

But loyalty can only go so far if the person is harming other people. As stated previously, I would've confront Lindsey about it. Told him to clean his act up or he's history.

I understand John and Mick need to make a living. But your financial needs should never overtake your conscience. So if they really did know about Lindsey pulling that stuff at the time, they lose a lot of respect from me.

To reassure, I'm fine with Lindsey now. He's clean and worked on himself. Based on that effort I can forgive him for past transgressions. But Mick and John who are the big decision makers in the band abetting Lindsey's behavior at the time? I'm not so sure...

[mezzoforte]

The only thing that troubles me about the accusations is Mick and John knowing about it.

I understand to maintain peace in a band you stay out of each other's personal lives. (EX: The Beatles never vocally passed Judgement on John when he divorced Cyn. Even though privately they thought it was crappy the way he handled the divorce)

Hypothetically, if I am in a band, I stay out of a fellow band mate's perosnal life. But when I see or get strong evidence of him being physically abusive to people, there will be a talk or something worse.

Josh Homme from Queens Of The Stone Age kicked out a long time band member when he had irefutable evidence the dude was beating his girlfriend. Josh gets the highest respect from me for doing that. I understand being loyalty to friends.

But loyalty can only go so far if the person is harming other people. As stated previously, I would've confront Lindsey about it. Told him to clean his act up or he's history.

I understand John and Mick need to make a living. But your financial needs should never overtake your conscience. So if they really did know about Lindsey pulling that stuff at the time, they lose a lot of respect from me.

To reassure, I'm fine with Lindsey now. He's clean and worked on himself. Based on that effort I can forgive him for past transgressions. But Mick and John who are the big decision makers in the band abetting Lindsey's behavior at the time? I'm not so sure...


I'm not sure Mick and John especially were really in the position to be calling anyone out on anything at that point. Haven't we heard from a number of sources that John McVie was a mean drunk?

[michelej1]

I'm not sure Mick and John especially were really in the position to be calling anyone out on anything at that point. Haven't we heard from a number of sources that John McVie was a mean drunk?

John yes, but no one has ever indicated that Mick has ever done anything physical at all. I get the impression that Mick was a big, gangly teddy bear.

Michele

[mezzoforte]

John yes, but no one has ever indicated that Mick has ever done anything physical at all. I get the impression that Mick was a big, gangly teddy bear.

Michele

Oh, I haven't heard that Mick was ever physical to anyone. Just that he wasn't a paragon of virtue. He was hooked on coke and regularly cheated on his wife, including with Stevie. Lindsey's also said some vaguely passive aggressive comments about Mick's parenting.

Not saying that any of those things are on par with abuse, for the record.

[McTrouble]

Viv, this is a discussion forum, obviously for both pro and con.

I realize that you worship the ground he walks on, but you shouldn't be so defensive of him, IMHO. Ignore the thread, if it drives you batty!:lol::wavey::xoxo:

Dave, it appeared to me like we had one of these newbies who join up just to cause trouble.

Really, is it a good thing to join a forum with a negative as first post?

[GreenMagic]

Mc -

I think you understand now that my intention was not to as you said "stir up" trouble.

I actually was going to do in your words "Positive" first post regarding Tusk.

But since I literally only read Ken's book a day and a half ago, this topic has been weighing on my mind. And I wanted feedback.

I did anticipate people saying Mick and John felt they were in no position to judge. I can understand even if I disagree.

The reason I disagree is their substance abuse never caused consistant and overly physical harm as a result. And Lindsey's at the time I stress, did.

They basically could have said "We dont act like sociopaths everytime we get under the influence, but you do Lindsey. Drugs make you a physical threat and we dont have that issue. Work on yourself or it's adios."

Pretty simple and to the point. But I don't know 100% if they were fully aware of his violent behavior under the influence.

So Mc doesnt misunderstand, I've become ok with Lindsey. After thinking about the fact he cleaned up and got therapy. But as stated previously if Mick and John had an idea how dangerous Lindsey was under influence and looked the other way, then I'll be disappointed. I'm already disappointed with them for slamming Stevie for not wanting to do another cash grabs oldies tour so soon.

She isn't their mother and they need to learn how to take care of themselves without expecting other people to do it. BTW I'll put up a more upbeat thread soon. Just busy jobhunting since I got laid off two days ago.

[wetcamelfood]

Nah it's all about the music for me. I mean, sure it'd be great if they were nice people but as long as they make good music and I stay away from the tabloid stuff, I'm OK with that. :)

John

[MrStevie]

Nah it's all about the music for me. I mean, sure it'd be great if they were nice people but as long as they make good music and I stay away from the tabloid stuff, I'm OK with that. :)

John
I kinda agree, but I admit Ken's book did change my mind about him as a person. At first I thought Ken was spitting sour grapes because Lindsey didn't get personally involved in supporting the book. After hearing Ken's ongoing comments about him, and learning about the things he was accused of by ex girlfriends, I decided where there's smoke there's fire.

I use to have a pic of Linds rollin a doob as my avatar. I couldn't keep it after reading about his abusive behavior and how drugs might have contributed it. It's also not easy to hear lyrics like this on his latest album: "I've got a pulicist who covers up the avarice where I put my fist," without wondering if he really has changed, like his loyal fans want to believe, or if he's surrounded by enablers with a financial stake in his image and career? :shrug:

No offense to his fans. :wavey:

[McTrouble]

"Let he who is without sin.........."

[KarmaContestant]

"Let he who is without sin.........."

This.

We all go through our lives with personal challenges to overcome. As we work our way to (hopefully) overcoming these challenges, we are all capable of actions we are never proud of. Lindsey suffers the misfortune of his personal struggles being cast publicly; something most of us will never endure.

I believe that the effort of self improvement, coupled with overcoming one's personal challenges and being a better man or woman says a lot more about character than past transgressions.

[michelej1]

I use to have a pic of Linds rollin a doob as my avatar. I couldn't keep it after reading about his abusive behavior and how drugs might have contributed it. It's also not easy to hear lyrics like this on his latest album: "I've got a pulicist who covers up the avarice where I put my fist," without wondering if he really has changed, like his loyal fans want to believe, or if he's surrounded by enablers with a financial stake in his image and career? :shrug:

:

I don't care if he has changed or not. I guess I'd have to know what he did to think that he should have.

But a song about corruption by power brokers in business or government, which denounces their ruthless actions certainly doesn't say to me that he's beating women and children. Clearly, he is not the protagonist in that song and would battle against him as he did in "Wrong". Plus, I have not seen anyone guarding his image, such as it is. Very few people watching SNL even knew who Hader was pretending to be. There is not much to guard. Maybe he's beating Kristen their kids and poodles and she is keeping quiet about it. That would be her. I highly doubt Irving Azoff spends a lot of time making sure Lindsey misdeeds keep swept under the rug. Lindsey is far from high profile enough. Lindsey hardly has an entourage at this point in his life. Michele

[Lindsfan]

"Let he who is without sin.........."

This.

This.

We all go through our lives with personal challenges to overcome. As we work our way to (hopefully) overcoming these challenges, we are all capable of actions we are never proud of. Lindsey suffers the misfortune of his personal struggles being cast publicly; something most of us will never endure.

I believe that the effort of self improvement, coupled with overcoming one's personal challenges and being a better man or woman says a lot more about character than past transgressions.

This.

I don't care if he has changed or not. I guess I'd have to know what he did to think that he should have.

But a song about corruption by power brokers in business or government, which denounces their ruthless actions certainly doesn't say to me that he's beating women and children. Clearly, he is not the protagonist in that song and would battle against him as he did in "Wrong". Plus, I have not seen anyone guarding his image, such as it is. Very few people watching SNL even knew who Hader was pretending to be. There is not much to guard. Maybe he's beating Kristen their kids and poodles and she is keeping quiet about it. That would be her. I highly doubt Irving Azoff spends a lot of time making sure Lindsey misdeeds keep swept under the rug. Lindsey is far from high profile enough. Lindsey hardly has an entourage at this point in his life. Michele

...and This.


That sums up my feelings, right there.

-----------------------------

But in answer to the original question, here's my short answer.

It's been 30 years. How long do we need to vilify him? Does his past make me look at his music in a negative way? No. Quite the opposite. I know he's speaking from personal experience when he sings about sanity, control/loss of control, fear, growth, overcoming demons, karma, moving on and trying to be a better person or seeking out the good in things. All of it. He lays it all out there. It makes me appreciate his music more, and I genuinely like the man he's become. I feel bad for all he's been through ( and put others through ), but no way will I hold his very distant past aginst him. I wouldn't with anyone else either.


Here's my long answer, for anyone interested...

Lindsey, as well as the rest of the band, and CAH were all really messed up back then. They all were abusing drugs and/or alcohol, and living a very crazy lifestyle.. That affects different people differently, of course. Lindsey got violent. Apparently, so did Stevie sometimes. Was it OK for her to lash out and attack Lindsey, as she herself has admitted to ( see Michelle's post re. the choking incident )?? Yes, I know , obviusly she couldn't do the kind of physical damage Lindsey could, but was it OK? Chris was scared of John, too. There was plenty of bad behavior from all of them, yet, every few months, the only one we talk about is Lindsey because he's been the subject of a few books. It wasn't OK for anyone - and certainly not OK for Lindsey - to become abusive. And while being under the influence doesn't excuse his/their behavior, it does explain it to some degree. The thing that bothers me is that all this happened 30 years ago! Clearly, he has changed. I don't for a minute think he is the same man today. As was mentioned above, Anne Heche had no problems with him. Neither has his wife and kids as far as we know, and there's no reason to think otherwise. So, I guess, for me, when you ask should what a person did 30 years ago, while under the influence, effect how you feel about him today? My answer is, if you think he's the same person, or you believe a person should carry their sins around until the day they die, then yes. Avoid Lindsey and avoid his music. You won't enjoy either. Celebrities today, atheletes and TV stars , musicians, are in the news all the time for abusing girlfriends, wives and kids. Society gets over most of it really fast. I don't understand that. Rob Lowe videoed himself having sex with a teenaged girl, and now all is forgiven. I recall a very messed up David Hasselhoff a few years ago going nuts on the phone with his young daughter. Michael Jackson may have molested young boys, and definitelty held his own kids out of windows of highrises, and still many people are OK with that. He's a hero and his music is great they say. Do I even have to mention Chris Brown? And don't even get me started on how quick the average football fan looks the other way when someone yells rape or abuse. And these are all a lot more recent than Lindsey's issues. Yes, I know what they did has nothing to do with what he did, but I question why some people get a free pass and others have to carry an albatross around for 3 decades! Lindsey has clearly taken steps to become a better person. The people in his life adore him - his nieces, his kids, his wife, his friends...they don't strike me as people covering up for his ongoing nasty ways. They strike me as people that see a good man. A man who has changed drastically since getting control of whatever addictions and/or mental health issues he had, and of course, from lots and lots of therapy.

[elle]

glad to see a rational and civilized discussion in this thread. some of my thoughts:

when i first read KC’s book, i had somewhat similar reaction as several others. in my mind - although i do understand these are all unconfirmed allegations as far as we know – those two snippets from KC’s book (especially Christina Conte episode) confirmed that there is substance to what CAH described. so, i couldn’t listen to LB’s music anymore, i stopped providing LB-related musical info through social media, and was considering canceling the already booked may trip to see his solo shows.

after talking to some people who have actually personally known LB during the last decade and who insisted that the man they know now is not the man described in books listing events from 20-35 years ago, and a lot of additional discussion, i believe that all that therapy he appears to have been through in the last 20 odd years was probably mostly about abusive / violent behavior and substance abuse. and that he did manage to change – and a lot of classic LB talk about the importance and power of change is probably about the same thing.

the man you meet now is completely incompatible with the picture from 20-30 years ago. not just that he is incredibly nice and sweet as many others have described when talking about their experiences of meeting him, but he is also… well, for the lack of a better word – so human.

he definitely seems to have mellowed down. he may still be this crazy genius artist, or have a temper… but many people do – violent temper is one thing but actually crossing the line into physical abuse is another.

i feel fiercely protective of LB now, after being lucky enough to meet him several times in the last month or so.

however, if i would hear that he has not changed and [alleged] abusive behavior is still happening and he doesn't see anything wrong with it, that would be the end of my LB musical addiction too. period.



so to sum up - my 0.02:

abuse should NEVER be justified or condoned. by anybody. EVER.

but i believe that a person can redeem themselves and change. if they did, they should be given credit for it.

[vivfox]

How Lindsey behaves in his private life is truly none of my business. I'm either going to like a song of his or I'm not.
Many of you have referenced as fact that Lindsey has had years of therapy and I ask, how do you know this? I've not read any interviews with him where he talks about this.

Also, I was at his infamous 1992 or 3 Roxy show in Phoenix where he had a major temper tantrum from the stage at some audience members offering up his best 2 middle fingers. At that time I was so angry with him I vowed I would never see another solo show of his but when he toured in 2006 all was forgiven and I couldn't wait to see and hear him sing again.

[michelej1]

when i first read KC’s book, i had somewhat similar reaction as several others. in my mind - although i do understand these are all unconfirmed allegations as far as we know – those two snippets from KC’s book (especially Christina Conte episode) confirmed that there is substance to what CAH described.

For me, I don't see the accusations as unrelated. Conte, Ken and CAH all know each other and Ken has talked to both since CAH wrote her book, so I really don't see them as independent allegations. I think they're related and I view it as that game of "telephone" where you whisper to each other in a relay and the story and details that come out at the end of the game are not at all what they were to begin with.

I do think that Ken mentioned Richard a lot. And with all the years that Richard and Lindsey spent living and working together, even if they're not together now, I would give credence to what Richard has to say. If Richard supports Ken's book, as Ken suggests Richard does, I'd take that as a form of confirmation.

Michele

[MrStevie]

For me, I don't see the accusations as unrelated. Conte, Ken and CAH all know each other and Ken has talked to both since CAH wrote her book, so I really don't see them as independent allegations. I think they're related and I view it as that game of "telephone" where you whisper to each other in a relay and the story and details that come out at the end of the game are not at all what they were to begin with.

I do think that Ken mentioned Richard a lot. And with all the years that Richard and Lindsey spent living and working together, even if they're not together now, I would give credence to what Richard has to say. If Richard supports Ken's book, as Ken suggests Richard does, I'd take that as a form of confirmation.

Michele

I used to look at it like the telephone thing, too. Then I talked to a few people who seem to think these things are true and that Lindsey still has issues. Sure, they may all have an axe to grind. I keep that under consideration. Hopefully he has changed. I couldn't and wouldn't support someone who abuses women.

Ken hinting around at Richard's support of the book, that has a lot to do with me changing my mind. To my knowledge Richard hasn't said anything, though. Ken has told people LB hasn't spoken to Rich in years, so I wonder why.:confused:

glad to see a rational and civilized discussion in this thread. some of my thoughts:

when i first read KC’s book, i had somewhat similar reaction as several others. in my mind - although i do understand these are all unconfirmed allegations as far as we know – those two snippets from KC’s book (especially Christina Conte episode) confirmed that there is substance to what CAH described. so, i couldn’t listen to LB’s music anymore, i stopped providing LB-related musical info through social media, and was considering canceling the already booked may trip to see his solo shows.

after talking to some people who have actually personally known LB during the last decade and who insisted that the man they know now is not the man described in books listing events from 20-35 years ago, and a lot of additional discussion, i believe that all that therapy he appears to have been through in the last 20 odd years was probably mostly about abusive / violent behavior and substance abuse. and that he did manage to change – and a lot of classic LB talk about the importance and power of change is probably about the same thing.

the man you meet now is completely incompatible with the picture from 20-30 years ago. not just that he is incredibly nice and sweet as many others have described when talking about their experiences of meeting him, but he is also… well, for the lack of a better word – so human.

he definitely seems to have mellowed down. he may still be this crazy genius artist, or have a temper… but many people do – violent temper is one thing but actually crossing the line into physical abuse is another.

i feel fiercely protective of LB now, after being lucky enough to meet him several times in the last month or so.

however, if i would hear that he has not changed and [alleged] abusive behavior is still happening and he doesn't see anything wrong with it, that would be the end of my LB musical addiction too. period.



so to sum up - my 0.02:

abuse should NEVER be justified or condoned. by anybody. EVER.

but i believe that a person can redeem themselves and change. if they did, they should be given credit for it.

Great post. :thumbsup:

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this touchy subject. I like knowing how others view it, since I'm not sure I have all the facts. You've certainly given it a lot of thought and consideration. :wavey:

:)

[michelej1]

Also, I was at his infamous 1992 or 3 Roxy show in Phoenix where he had a major temper tantrum from the stage at some audience members offering up his best 2 middle fingers. At that time I was so angry with him I vowed I would never see another solo show of his but when he toured in 2006 all was forgiven and I couldn't wait to see and hear him sing again.

The way you and others have described the audience at that show, I hardly blame him.



the man you meet now is completely incompatible with the picture from 20-30 years ago. not just that he is incredibly nice and sweet as many others have described when talking about their experiences of meeting him, but he is also… well, for the lack of a better word – so human.


See, I just don't think pleasant public behavior means much of anything. I don't think he was Atila The Hun back then either, but he might have been. If so, I bet he had a lot of incredibly nice and sweet public (and private) moments too, even while being abusive at other times.

Abuse is a hard thing to parse. I remember when Mommie Dearest came out, I was really skeptical of Christina Crawford. Whether her accusations were true or not, she benefitted a lot from them. On the other hand, when Bing Crosby's sons from his first marriage came out about him, I really resented it when Bob Hope (a beloved icon) trashed them and said Bing was a great dad. Bob and Bing may have been the closest of friends and I'm sure he was the kindest of buddies, but Bob had no way of knowing what was going on behind Bing's closed doors.

Michele

[elle]

Also, I was at his infamous 1992 or 3 Roxy show in Phoenix where he had a major temper tantrum from the stage at some audience members offering up his best 2 middle fingers. At that time I was so angry with him I vowed I would never see another solo show of his but when he toured in 2006 all was forgiven and I couldn't wait to see and hear him sing again.

i read your review about this and i still have trouble understanding how something like this could make you so angry.:confused::confused:

f-word? middle finger? by a performer that - from what you and others described - felt he was being disrespected by the drunk audience members that were in the club to get wasted and not to listen to the show? don't you all have a whole another thread discussing how audience members' drunkenness at concerts is ruining shows for you?

now if you told me he jumped into the audience and beat somebody up, i'd say that would fit with the discussion of abuse allegations in this thread. but throwing f-words, i'm sorry - i don't see it. :shrug:

[elle]

Ken has told people LB hasn't spoken to Rich in years

KC has told me on twitter in a response to my direct question that he has not have contact with LB for years - other than that award ceremony at the beginning of last year.


See, I just don't think pleasant public behavior means much of anything. I don't think he was Atila The Hun back then either, but he might have been. If so, I bet he had a lot of incredibly nice and sweet public (and private) moments too, even while being abusive at other times.

Abuse is a hard thing to parse.

completely agree. this is just how i feel. i don't have enough information to know what is true about the past or the present - and it doesn't seem any of us do.

[michelej1]

f-word? middle finger? by a performer that - from what you and others described - felt he was being disrespected by the drunk audience members that were in the club to get wasted and not to listen to the show?

I read the reviews and I got mad at the audience.

Michele

[michelej1]

I'd have to read my own reviews and see if it was the UTS tour or the GOS tour, but Richard was in the audience two nights in the row in Vegas. Both Richard and Steve were. Lindsey had talked to them before the show, obviously.

Ray Lindsay is also a good one. Whether he and Lindsey are friends now or not, I think I'd have to give a great deal of deference to what he said. Well, if Ray says it himself. Ken saying Lindsey didn't pay Ray doesn't make me believe that.

Michele

[elle]

I believe that the effort of self improvement, coupled with overcoming one's personal challenges and being a better man or woman says a lot more about character than past transgressions.

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

[MrStevie]

But a song about corruption by power brokers in business or government, which denounces their ruthless actions certainly doesn't say to me that he's beating women and children. Clearly, he is not the protagonist in that song and would battle against him as he did in "Wrong". Plus, I have not seen anyone guarding his image, such as it is. Very few people watching SNL even knew who Hader was pretending to be. There is not much to guard. Maybe he's beating Kristen their kids and poodles and she is keeping quiet about it. That would be her. I highly doubt Irving Azoff spends a lot of time making sure Lindsey misdeeds keep swept under the rug. Lindsey is far from high profile enough. Lindsey hardly has an entourage at this point in his life. Michele

Can't say I agree with your lyric interpretation. Your conclusions are reasonable if that's what you believe he's talking about. :D

Not sure what SNL, or lacking a high profile has to do with anything. Non celebrities have enablers looking the other way all the time when it works in the enablers best interest.




See, I just don't think pleasant public behavior means much of anything. I don't think he was Atila The Hun back then either, but he might have been. If so, I bet he had a lot of incredibly nice and sweet public (and private) moments too, even while being abusive at other times.

Abuse is a hard thing to parse. I remember when Mommie Dearest came out, I was really skeptical of Christina Crawford. Whether her accusations were true or not, she benefitted a lot from them. On the other hand, when Bing Crosby's sons from his first marriage came out about him, I really resented it when Bob Hope (a beloved icon) trashed them and said Bing was a great dad. Bob and Bing may have been the closest of friends and I'm sure he was the kindest of buddies, but Bob had no way of knowing what was going on behind Bing's closed doors.

Michele

:thumbsup:

:)

[elle]

I'd have to read my own reviews and see if it was the UTS tour or the GOS tour, but Richard was in the audience two nights in the row in Vegas. Both Richard and Steve were. Lindsey had talked to them before the show, obviously.

i think there's even a video on youtube - he introduced them from the stage and said they are to blame he's here now / called them his partners in crime or something like that.

Ray Lindsay is also a good one. Whether he and Lindsey are friends now or not, I think I'd have to give a great deal of deference to what he said. Well, if Ray says it himself. Ken saying Lindsey didn't pay Ray doesn't make me believe that.
i thought Ken said that about Richard, not Ray Lindsay?

[michelej1]

Can't say I agree with your lyric interpretation. Your conclusions are reasonable if that's what you believe he's talking about. :D


It is and I find your interpretation of One Take to be unique, to say the least.

Anyone can have enablers, family and friends, for instance, but you seemed to be linking the term to a bigger enterprise, especially with the One Take publicist line. It's like you were talking about the big FM in the seventies and not the man Lindsey is today who does not really have an image to protect.

Michele

[michelej1]

i think there's even a video on youtube - he introduced them from the stage and said they are to blame he's here now / called them his partners in crime or something like that.


i thought Ken said that about Richard, not Ray Lindsay?

Yes, but when the discussion began it was unclear whether it was Richard or Ray and then we all got into whether or not Richard was being paid by FM, rather than Lindsey anyway.

Michele

[MrStevie]

I'd have to read my own reviews and see if it was the UTS tour or the GOS tour, but Richard was in the audience two nights in the row in Vegas. Both Richard and Steve were. Lindsey had talked to them before the show, obviously.

:eek::eek::eek: Well, well. :D Thanks for sharing.

Ken saying Lindsey didn't pay Ray doesn't make me believe that.

Michele

Me either.

:wavey:

[MrStevie]

It is and I find your interpretation of One Take to be unique, to say the least.

Anyone can have enablers, family and friends, for instance, but you seemed to be linking the term to a bigger enterprise, especially with the One Take publicist line. It's like you were talking about the big FM in the seventies and not the man Lindsey is today who does not really have an image to protect.

Michele

Everyone has an image to protect. It doesn't matter what you do for a living. ;)

[michelej1]

Everyone has an image to protect. It doesn't matter what you do for a living. ;)

Uh huh. If you say so.

Anyway, that's why I was talking about SNL because you were talking about a publicist who covers up the avarice where you put your fist. The last thing I think Lindsey's publicist did was get him on SNL.

Michele

[elle]

Can't say I agree with your lyric interpretation. Your conclusions are reasonable if that's what you believe he's talking about. :D

we had a thread a while ago discussing LB's political songs - One Take was one of them. even if it's fairly literal, there were several layers of interpretation of that song.

as far as big label covering someone's avarice - well, LB doesn't have a big label now, so that particular interpretation would not seem to be relevant if discussing any present behavior.

actually if you listen to the song, together with his interpretation in various interviews, it seems to fit his overall message of one should work on change and improvement in general, starting from yourself.

[michelej1]

actually if you listen to the song, together with his interpretation in various interviews, it seems to fit his overall message of one should work on change and improvement in general, starting from yourself.

True, which is also the same as his interpretation of Peacekeeper which is that the message can work for warring countries, but can also start with the basic proposition of keeping peace within a relationship.

Michele

[MrStevie]

The last thing I think Lindsey's publicist did was get him on SNL.

Michele

Uh huh, if you say so. :D

How would we know?;)

:wavey:

[michelej1]

Uh huh, if you say so. :D


Yeah, don't start doing that.

How would we know?;)



Well, we know a lot because we live in a different world now, with all the media scrutiny. Harvey Levin seems to have more power than most publicists these days. I don't think it's easy to cover up the avarice where you put your fist if if you're talking about a singer, rock star, actor. The papparazzi are everywhere. Things seem to get out, no matter how big the star is in this TMZ day and it's not only celebrities, but politicians like John Edwards who they shadow. They have medical files, police reports. TMZ even broke news about Tommy LaSorda and the "hard" news networks now have to get their information from the tabloids.

Michele

[MrStevie]

Yeah, don't start doing that.

Sorry, no disrepect intended. :sorry: I thought we were just joking back and forth. :sorry:



Well, we know a lot because we live in a different world now, with all the media scrutiny. Harvey Levin seems to have more power than most publicists these days. I don't think it's easy to cover up the avarice where you put your fist if if you're talking about a singer, rock star, actor. The papparazzi are everywhere. Things seem to get out, no matter how big the star is in this TMZ day and it's not only celebrities, but politicians like John Edwards who they shadow. They have medical files, police reports. TMZ even broke news about Tommy LaSorda and the "hard" news networks now have to get their information from the tabloids.

Michele

Good point. On that note I'll take my leave. Thanks for the exchange.

:wavey:

[michelej1]

I thought we were just joking back and forth. :sorry:


Right, back and forth is good. It's just the mimicry, I mean.

Michele

[tilthefirefades]

All I really get from this thread is, it's ok to make fun of Stevie until the end of days. But touch Lindsey and all hell breaks lose. So yeah, he was maybe physically abusive. We all change, get over it. But what I don't get is the aggressiveness used. A "chiffonhead" defends Stevie and we are dumb and ignorant fans that need a life. But how dare you bring up Lindsey's past, he is a perfect angel.

[WildHearted]

^ I'm a Stevie girl first and foremost, and I really don't think this has anything to do with Stevie at all...

I poke fun at both of them, all the time. This isn't the same as joking about Stevie's hand motions or Lindsey's speeches. I can understand why people would get defensive about this topic because it can, as evidenced by this thread, change how someone perceives Lindsey entirely.... however I think it's a very worthy topic of discussion. Maybe it's been brought up time and time again and is getting old, but heck, a lot of everything else we talk about is nothing new, either.

[cliffdweller]

Lindsey wasn't/isn't an angel. I have no doubt he "put his fist" many places it shouldn't have gone, however, people DO change, and I really think Lindsey has for the most part. Most of us don't have our most heinous moments captured in the media for all to see. Can you even imagine? I try to cut him a little slack in that regard. We would hope for the same in our own lives. If it comes out that he is still hitting/choking people today, well, I would stop supporting him most definitely. I just think all that is behind him and he has moved on.

[McTrouble]

How Lindsey behaves in his private life is truly none of my business. I'm either going to like a song of his or I'm not.
Many of you have referenced as fact that Lindsey has had years of therapy and I ask, how do you know this? I've not read any interviews with him where he talks about this.

Also, I was at his infamous 1992 or 3 Roxy show in Phoenix where he had a major temper tantrum from the stage at some audience members offering up his best 2 middle fingers. At that time I was so angry with him I vowed I would never see another solo show of his but when he toured in 2006 all was forgiven and I couldn't wait to see and hear him sing again.

:thumbsup: Yes, absolutely none of our business!

And I want to add some more to all this - Lindsey himself has maintained a dignified silence following all the various published allegations against him over the years. I truly hope he continues to stay silent.

After meeting him lots, like Elle, I am fiercely protective of him - more now than I've ever been!

Love you Lindsey :xoxo:

[elle]

^ I'm a Stevie girl first and foremost, and I really don't think this has anything to do with Stevie at all...

I poke fun at both of them, all the time. This isn't the same as joking about Stevie's hand motions or Lindsey's speeches. I can understand why people would get defensive about this topic because it can, as evidenced by this thread, change how someone perceives Lindsey entirely.... however I think it's a very worthy topic of discussion. Maybe it's been brought up time and time again and is getting old, but heck, a lot of everything else we talk about is nothing new, either.

:thumbsup: for this whole post.

it may have been brought up time and again, but i appreciate the more comprehensive and thought through opinions that many people have expressed in this thread:nod:.

[elle]

Lindsey himself has maintained a dignified silence following all the various published allegations against him over the years.

good point - he has been really classy about this. (and if some of the allegations are true, i think SN has been very classy about the whole thing too.)

[McTrouble]

good point - he has been really classy about this. (and if some of the allegations are true, i think SN has been very classy about the whole thing too.)

He is pure class! We have been lucky enough to find this out for ourselves! :)

[TrueFaith77]

I'm just glad there is another Roxy Music, PIL, X fan on these pages.

[PenguinHead]

Lindsey touched on this subject with a pithy lyric line in one of his songs:

"We all have our demons,
and sometimes they escape"

[vivfox]

All I really get from this thread is, it's ok to make fun of Stevie until the end of days. But touch Lindsey and all hell breaks lose. So yeah, he was maybe physically abusive. We all change, get over it. But what I don't get is the aggressiveness used. A "chiffonhead" defends Stevie and we are dumb and ignorant fans that need a life. But how dare you bring up Lindsey's past, he is a perfect angel.


^^^What he said.

Honestly I get amusement when I read of any fan of any artist protecting their favorite performer from the scathing words of another. I defended Stevie for many, many years until I developed a good sense of humor and realized I could make fun of her and still love her as well.

[GreenMagic]

Look, I moved on from my feelings re: Lindsey being the sequel to Ike Turner. As long as the guy cleaned up and got his crap straightened out, then we're good.

But if he becomes a fixture on TMZ, then Linds sorry it aint gonna work out for us.

@Truefaith77- Ha, that is awesome. I rarely meet people who like post-punk alternative music who is into the Mac. In fact, I still keep my FM fanship on the DL when I'm around hipsters.

Looks like you are a New Order fan as well. Fantastic. they were my favorite artists of the 80's tied with The Replacements. BTW even though his music on a artistic level is cheesy, I've got mad love for Mr. Phil Freakin' Collins. You just can't beat the awesomeness of Easy Lover or Sussidio.

[CADreaming]

^^^What he said.

Honestly I get amusement when I read of any fan of any artist protecting their favorite performer from the scathing words of another. I defended Stevie for many, many years until I developed a good sense of humor and realized I could make fun of her and still love her as well.

Speaking of Stevie....

I'm not naive enough to think Lindsey never lost his cool, went nuts and maybe got physically violent with a girlfriend or a co-worker. But, I'm not sure he was ever what could be classified as physically abusive or a 'woman-beater' because I don't think Stevie would have stayed with him. And, even if she would have, I don't think she would have ever been able to say that her Dad adored Lindsey and that he would always be in her life for that fact alone. I'll never be convinced Jess Nicks would "adore" a man who beat his daughter. I also don't think Stevie would have been comfortable hugging Lindsey or letting him hug her or drape his arm around her neck as he has done in every decade of photos I've seen. She would have kept her distance from him.

[Street_Dreamer]

Not to jump on Mick but while he likely wasn't physically abusive, he was mentally abusive to his older children whom both saw their father's drug use up close.

Matt

[michelej1]

Speaking of Stevie....

I'm not naive enough to think Lindsey never lost his cool, went nuts and maybe got physically violent with a girlfriend or a co-worker. But, I'm not sure he was ever what could be classified as physically abusive or a 'woman-beater' because I don't think Stevie would have stayed with him. And, even if she would have, I don't think she would have ever been able to say that her Dad adored Lindsey and that he would always be in her life for that fact alone. I'll never be convinced Jess Nicks would "adore" a man who beat his daughter. I also don't think Stevie would have been comfortable hugging Lindsey or letting him hug her or drape his arm around her neck as he has done in every decade of photos I've seen. She would have kept her distance from him.

True, and her mother liked him too.

I get the impression about Lindsey and Stevie, not that they never tussled, but that even though he is obviously bigger and stronger than her that he never used more force on her than she used on him. She seems to have a bravado about her (i.e. when she said she'd beat up people with her tamborine and boots) that gives the impression that she thinks she can take care of herself physically even if we logically know she can't and I don't think someone who has been physically victimized would have that air.

It reminds me of her talking about beating up Chris until her father finally gave Chris permission to hit her back. Jess didn't think a boy should hit a girl, but when the older sister took advantage of that maxim, Jess relented and told Chris he could defend himself. Then, she stopped picking on her little brother. I think she has always imagined herself as tough -- even if she's not. And I'm sure she and Lindsey have tangled, but she just doesn't seem like she's been overpowered or made to cower.

I feel that she is aware of him physically though. I get the impression that she's more afraid of him saying things to her sometimes. I've said this before, but you know that video when she is bent over a steam machine? She and Robin are there and Lindsey starts approaching her from across the room and she seems really nervous the whole time he is walking. When he gets to her, he says something very innocuous like "hi girls" or something. But she seemed pretty jumpy. And every time they performed Angel, it looked to me like she was always wondering where he was. Like, "Is he coming to the mic? What's he doing? Where is he?"

But yeah what you said about the neck and the draping. I think we are all taken by that moment in Mirage where he comes and leans on her back and you just have this feeling that this man is coming and lying on her and she doesn't even pay attention because . . . I don't know . . . she's used to his body on hers.

Michele

[michelej1]

Not to jump on Mick but while he likely wasn't physically abusive, he was mentally abusive to his older children whom both saw their father's drug use up close.

Matt

Mentally abusive just because he used drugs around them or because he lashed out at them while on drugs?

One of the bad memories I took away from I'll Sleep When I'm Dead was how bad Warren Zevon was to his children. He didn't hit them, but would physically push them away and just outright ignore them. Whenever Lindsey gives that line about being glad he waited until he had kids because he saw friends of his who didn't, I think of Zevon.

Michele

[elle]

I've got mad love for Mr. Phil Freakin' Collins. You just can't beat the awesomeness of Easy Lover or Sussidio.

oh wow :lol::lol::distress::distress:

[GreenMagic]

@Elle -

If you noticed, I did say Phil's songs on an artistic level sucked. But man, in terms of sheer guilty pleasure/nostalgia, they are immensely enjoyable. I'm a 80's kid, what do you expect? I love Miami Vice too. And Knight Rider till I found out David Hasselhoff was a douche to a little girl on a movie set recently.

I enjoy Tango in The Night even if musically it's one of the Mac's weaker albums along with Mirage. They're still enjoyable to listen to from a nostalgic point of view.

Nothing wrong with guilty pleasures as long you got some legit quality stuff to balance it out. And I do I think :lol:

[michelej1]

I enjoy Tango in The Night even if musically it's one of the Mac's weaker albums along with Mirage. They're still enjoyable to listen to from a nostalgic point of view.

Ooooh. I don't feel guilty about Tango at all. I think it's an album of mostly fine quality.

Michele

[elle]

@Elle -

If you noticed, I did say Phil's songs on an artistic level sucked. But man, in terms of sheer guilty pleasure/nostalgia, they are immensely enjoyable. I'm a 80's kid, what do you expect? I love Miami Vice too. And Knight Rider till I found out David Hasselhoff was a douche to a little girl on a movie set recently.

I enjoy Tango in The Night even if musically it's one of the Mac's weaker albums along with Mirage. They're still enjoyable to listen to from a nostalgic point of view.

Nothing wrong with guilty pleasures as long you got some legit quality stuff to balance it out. And I do I think :lol:

no, definitely not - and we all have them! whatever makes the life enjoyable, even if you don't have any *quality* stuff to balance it out :lol:. just never could understand the appeal of his music so couldn't resist after you were going all hipstery on us ;):sorry:

[GreenMagic]

It's ok Elle, I'm still a recovering hipster. I do have lapses from time to time. I'm just glad I never turned into a hipster like Jack Black's character in High Fidelity.

That scene where he reams a customer for buying 80's Stevie Wonder over his 70's work like Talking Book shook me to the core. I was nowhere near as bad, but I was on the road to getting there. I like really questionable stupid crap too, so why would I judge someone else for it?

(Ok, ain't gonna lie I abhor Celine Dion and may possibly hold someone in contempt for liking her. Sorry, just heard that stupid Titanic song twice a day in the pharmacy I worked in. If that doesn't make some one get all Patrick Bateman I dont know what will.)

I basically learned to lighten up and not take music as seriously. It is still entertainment. Even if Celine or Kid Rock is the music of Satan :thumbsup:

[Sanne2]

I enjoy Tango in The Night even if musically it's one of the Mac's weaker albums along with Mirage. They're still enjoyable to listen to from a nostalgic point of view.
:

I could not possibly disagree stronger. I HATE it when people file those 80's albums under "guilty pleasure", "nostalgie" or "oh boy, hear all those synths, how did we ever listen to this music?!" No, **** that, I say it loud & proud:
I THINK TANGO IN THE NIGHT IS A GREAT ALBUM
and Mirage too, but I like TITN more.

[michelej1]

^I love Mirage and it might be my favorite FM album, but it was my first "new" FM album and I realize I might be biased towards it. I became a fan after Tusk was released and, overall, I did not appreciate Tusk at the time. Mirage came out when I was a new fan and really into music, in general and I have always loved it, probably beyond what it merits.

Michele

[darkcat]

I feel that she is aware of him physically though. I get the impression that she's more afraid of him saying things to her sometimes. I've said this before, but you know that video when she is bent over a steam machine? She and Robin are there and Lindsey starts approaching her from across the room and she seems really nervous the whole time he is walking. When he gets to her, he says something very innocuous like "hi girls" or something. But she seemed pretty jumpy. And every time they performed Angel, it looked to me like she was always wondering where he was. Like, "Is he coming to the mic? What's he doing? Where is he?"

But yeah what you said about the neck and the draping. I think we are all taken by that moment in Mirage where he comes and leans on her back and you just have this feeling that this man is coming and lying on her and she doesn't even pay attention because . . . I don't know . . . she's used to his body on hers.

Michele

Ooooh let's talk more about that moment in Mirage. I absolutely love that, well the whole song, but especially that moment between Lindsey and Stevie. in spite of how much animosity they can have for each other they have such an amazing connection.

[michelej1]

Ooooh let's talk more about that moment in Mirage. I absolutely love that, well the whole song, but especially that moment between Lindsey and Stevie. in spite of how much animosity they can have for each other they have such an amazing connection.

They've done something similar during Don't Stop in recent tours, but since they tend to do it every night, it doesn't have the same unique effect as it did when we watched that Mirage video and saw it for the first spontaneous time.

I think it's akin to muscle memory. People memory. That familiarity and comfort, ease you can have in relationship to another person, even if you're estranged or have been apart.

During Disney Going Home, Mick made me jealous when he talked about the Clinton performance, because I wish I'd been where he'd been. He said as they were getting ready to go on stage, he looked and he saw Lindsey and Stevie holding hands and Christine and John holding hands too as the band walked up and it was like the past had returned. Michele

[bombaysaffires]

Speaking of Stevie....

I'm not naive enough to think Lindsey never lost his cool, went nuts and maybe got physically violent with a girlfriend or a co-worker. But, I'm not sure he was ever what could be classified as physically abusive or a 'woman-beater' because I don't think Stevie would have stayed with him. And, even if she would have, I don't think she would have ever been able to say that her Dad adored Lindsey and that he would always be in her life for that fact alone. I'll never be convinced Jess Nicks would "adore" a man who beat his daughter. I also don't think Stevie would have been comfortable hugging Lindsey or letting him hug her or drape his arm around her neck as he has done in every decade of photos I've seen. She would have kept her distance from him.

Oh I totally think there were physical altercations in their relationship. I think these two continue to have a co-dependent relationship, still a bit unhealthy to this day. Better than what it was, but still codependent. Lots of money at stake makes people tolerate a LOT of things.. and I do think having to still deal with each other during the aftermath of their breakup fed a lot of their drug use. I get the feeling Stevie's loyalty to Fleetwood Mac over many years has to do with Mick (and then Chris and John) rather than with Lindsey.

I think that has mellowed over the years but I still believe that when Stevie makes her comments about living through a "nightmare" and "no one knows what REALLY went on" with the band and her and Lindsey, his anger management issues are definitely part of what she refers to.

I totally agree with those who say LB has clearly had a lot of shrinkage over the years. He may never have overtly said so, but the language he uses is absolutely that of a therapy veteran (I spent the first half of my career as a clinician). I give him lots of credit for that and for much of the self-reflection he's done.

[cliffdweller]

I totally agree with those who say LB has clearly had a lot of shrinkage over the years.

It's because he was in the pool too long :p :laugh:

[Nico]

reluctant to keep following Lindsey as an artist following Ken Callait's book?

Sorry I forgot to introduce myself. I've been lurking here the last couple of months but never bothered to register till now. As you can tell from my name I'm a huge fan of the Peter Green Era.

I used to be dismissive of the Rumours lineup years ago. Cause my musical tastes tended to be more Alternative, Post Punk Art rock stuff like My Bloody Valentine, Roxy Music, X, Public Image Limited. And then years ago I got into Power Pop like Big Star Raspberries and The Beach Boys.

It wasnt until hearing Tusk I became a fan of the Stevie Lindsey lineup. I can appreciate Rumours and self-titled album now. Although I'm majorly burnt out on those two because of radio, grocery stores playing them to death. And I loved Lindsey's solo stuff.

Anyway, getting back to what I was saying. I read Carol Anne's book and thought it had too many holes in it for her accusations of Lindsey's to be true. Then reading Ken's book, he talks about Lindsey getting mad and choking him. He also discusses how another girlfriend beside Carol accused Lindsey of hitting her.

To be fair I guess, Lindsey was doing lots of coke at that time into the 80's. From what I've seen with my family members abuse. coke can ramp you up. Make you irritable easily and more violence prone. And in Anne Heche's book she never mentioned any physical abuse form Lindsey. So I'm pretty sure he was clean the time he dated Anne.

So, a lot of the physical abuse could have been induced from drugs. I just dont know anymore. If Ken's saying abuse took place, I'm inclined to believe him. I dont think he has any reason to lie.

I'm lost. Even if it was brought on by drug abuse, I'm not sure I can behind someone who hits women. I understand musicians are human. I look the other way most of the time when it comes to minor indiscretions. I love Bob Dylan and Bruce, but they are/were huge womanizers. I dont care about that cause most musicians are.

The only thing that can stop me from being a fan is spousal/child abuse. I stopped liking John Lennon when I found out he severely verbally abused Julian.

Should we look the other way and keep being fans of Lindsey if his physical abuse was in the past and induced by major drug abuse? I guess I need some perspective.

Hi GreenMagic. :wavey: I appreciate the honesty of your post and I will give my honest opinion on the matter...

Yes, I will absolutely continue to follow Lindsey's career despite Ken's book. First and foremost, Lindsey Buckingham is what keeps me in the Mac fandom in the first place. His Mac music, solo music, his musicianship, and all the many amazing contributions he has made to music in general: I am utterly grateful. I've also seen him live about 14 times and each time he just blew me away more.

As regards his personal life, I think Lindsey has done a 180 and grown into a far happier person. His children adore him, his family seems darling and sweet and apparently they make him tremendously happy and have inspired a great deal of energy in him. So I couldn't be more pleased, as a fan.

In terms of what is in Ken's book, I obviously don't condone abuse of any kind. But this was a time and a place that none of us can even try and fathom an understanding of. Ken Caillat worked closely with FM, sure, but he wasn't dealing with whatever issues LB was obviously fighting inside of him. I mean, he had epilepsy, was ingesting copious amounts of cocaine and hard liquor, and was dealing with the fallout of a great love and working with said lover on a consistent basis, in a very intimate way (I would say songwriting qualifies as so, and Lindsey was as close to a songwriting partner for Stevie with all he did musically to her songs). So, no, I won't make excuses for his behavior, but I will try to understand. He had issues. He's probably still fighting some of them.

I met Lindsey more than a few times and he is such an awesome, sweet guy. I don't think any of us know these celebs personally. If I had to pick apart every horrible quality of each one of them...well, there wouldn't be much to like in the end. Bob Dylan was abusive to his wife, Sara, but I can't help but be touched by the entirety of Blood On The Tracks and feel his pain. John Lennon wasn't the greatest father to Julian, but he was struggling to overcome the pain of his own tumultuous upbringing and, in the end, tried to set it right. And even though they weren't perfect, John is still my favorite artist of all time and Bob is still one of my favorite songwriters.

The list can go on and on. Writers, poets, musicians, comedians, actors, etc. These people are just humans that screw up. It's when they seem to not care enough to make amends, or seem to find pleasure in hurting others who haven't the power to stop/control them that I really shake my head. But I can still love the art. I don't think Lindsey is a monster, nor any more wicked than the other members of FM. He was a young guy who did some stupid s*** and he's come a LONG way and turned into a pretty awesome guy in the long run.

An awesome guy who still creates flawless music. I'm definitely an LB girl and I regret nothing.

[GreenMagic]

Thanks Nico for your post.

I agree with most of it just a few things though. Bob wasn't abusive to Sara in the physical sense. He cheated on her constantly in the last years of their marriage. But that happened when he returned to the road.

Before then, he surprisingly had been faithful. But once you start touring old temptations die hard. As far as any abuse I think you are talking about the slap Sara claimed in divorce documents.

I found through some sources close to the Dylans that it was a lie. That Sara made that up as a tactic to get sole custody of their kids. Which is why their divorce documents when officially got finalized got sealed. Cause there were revisions made such as taking that incident out once there was a settlement.

I dont blame Sara. I can see how hurt she was by Bob's philandering. And she didnt feel the kids would be in a stable environment given Bob's touring. Sara and Bob actually breifly reconciled in the 80's. But they decided they were better off friends and remain so to this day. Bob took Sara to the Golden Globes back in 2000.

Also there hasnt been any other accounts of Bob pulling any Lindsey type stuff with women. He was still womanizing according to his ex-girlfriends but that was it. Don't get me wrong, Bob has his personal flaws.

But womanizing is a flaw I can live with compared to the other horrid things I've read some of my former heroes do. I'm fine with Lindsey and willing to look past it since he seems to be in a better place.

As far as John Lennon, I've read too many repulsive things he did in his personal life. It really tainted the music for me. But if you can get past it that's awesome. I can't mainly because some of the same tragedies that happened to him I experienced as well. And I never used it as an excuse to be terrible to people. Guess I'm too close to be objective.

[bombaysaffires]

It's because he was in the pool too long :p :laugh:

one of the funniest Seinfeld's ever!

[michelej1]

Oh I totally think there were physical altercations in their relationship. I think these two continue to have a co-dependent relationship, still a bit unhealthy to this day. Better than what it was, but still codependent. Lots of money at stake makes people tolerate a LOT of things.. and I do think having to still deal with each other during the aftermath of their breakup fed a lot of their drug use. I get the feeling Stevie's loyalty to Fleetwood Mac over many years has to do with Mick (and then Chris and John) rather than with Lindsey.


And though I wouldn't say she had a "loyalty" towards Lindsey exactly, I think Stevie is still with the Mac because of him and when he wasn't there, she didn't want to be there either. She said the same that herself and Mick said that during the Cage tour she was unsettled and unhappy because she wasn't used to being on stage without Lindsey. She has defined him as the Mac and said there is no Mac without him and I think she feels that. She is aware of the money that touring makes for John and Mick and I think she is happy when she can help build that security for them, but when Lindsey wasn't there, she lost that incentive to help them make money.



I think that has mellowed over the years but I still believe that when Stevie makes her comments about living through a "nightmare" and "no one knows what REALLY went on" with the band and her and Lindsey, his anger management issues are definitely part of what she refers to.



I've seen her say that no one knows everything that went on many times, but I never heard her discuss life with Lindsey or FM as a "nightmare." I've only seen her describe the Klonopin years that way. I have heard her say that hers and Lindsey's relationship was always volatile.

Michele

[michelej1]

Thanks Nico for your post.

I found through some sources close to the Dylans that it was a lie. That Sara made that up as a tactic to get sole custody of their kids. Which is why their divorce documents when officially got finalized got sealed. Cause there were revisions made such as taking that incident out once there was a settlement.


I don't know if Sara lied or not, but that's the reason I don't believe everything that I read. People lie and you never know what their incentives might be. Even in well-documented cases you don't know. For instance with Woody Allen, it's a fact that he cheated on his girlfriend with her underage daughter, but all the stuff that Mia later said about him to gain sole custody of the son they had together was very suspect. After he had been publicly exposed once, it was easy to accuse him of pedophiliac behavior and to be believed by some, if not most, without offering much evidence in the way of support. Like snowballs that grow, rolling stones do tend to gather moss and it's often hard to find your way back to the core of truth.

Michele

[Nico]

As far as John Lennon, I've read too many repulsive things he did in his personal life. It really tainted the music for me. But if you can get past it that's awesome. I can't mainly because some of the same tragedies that happened to him I experienced as well. And I never used it as an excuse to be terrible to people. Guess I'm too close to be objective.

I have an issue with this. Not because I don't think John committed sins and made errors, but the fact that you've chosen to believe every word of what has been written against him. Those who knew John the best-including his ex-wife- had incredibly wonderful things to say about him. Most of what has "tainted" his image was written by people who never even knew him. But to each his/her own. I am not going to judge another person's mistakes. And I don't feel that because my childhood may seem , on surface, similar to said person's childhood that that gives me some advantage where the judging is concerned. :)

Each person deals with a tragedy in their own way. There is no outline that will give us a deep understanding of an individual's pain or grief, how they react to bad situations, or how these situations affect them. Just as you explained allegations against Bob, I would like to stand up for John. He was not evil, nor did he commit despicable things in his life. He wasn't a great father to Julian and he wasn't the best husband to Cynthia. But he was not the ONLY musician who made mistakes, so I can't say that his errors have tainted any of his (flawless) music for me.

Leaving this post with Ringo:

“I was a big fan of John. I always felt he had the biggest heart, and he wasn’t the cynic that people thought… And he was the fastest. He was in and out. While we were still getting in, he was out and on to the next round.”

[GreenMagic]

@Nico -

I want to restate I genuinely that's good if you can look past John's mistakes. I want to stress I'm not trying to change your mind with what I'm about to say.

Just to explain in more detail why I feel the way I do. In Cynthia's book Johm she describes an incident Julian told her about that happened at his birthday party in 79.

They were having a good time. And someone did something humorous. Julian starts laughing hard. Without warning, John screams "Shut up! Stop laughing. I hate the way you f---ing laugh. Don't do that ever again."

John wasnt the subject of the humorous event BTW. This event traumatized Julian for years. Where he would never laugh in public. He only got over it once he got older. Oh yeah, he also left Julian out of his will. Real classy move there.

Also, when John was going through his immigration issues, Bob Dylan vocalized his support in the media for John to be able to stay. He also wrote a letter to the president encouraging him to make John a legal citizen of the united states.

How does John reward that friendly gesture? He slags Dylan off in interviews once he comes out of his house-husband phase. Then writes Serve Yerself as a takedown on Bob.

I actually enjoyed the satire of Serve at first. Until I read about what Bob did for john. I was bewildered like anyone else when Dylan went through his born again phase. But in retrospect I think he went crazy cause of the divorce from Sara. And I think like he mentioned in chronicles with recording a country album then being pictured in israel to alienate people so they would leave him alone.

I think the christian period was partly the same. He was tired of being worshipped again so to speak. And I think he knew that going into Christian music would alienate his audience. But I think he was lost mentally and vulnerable. A combination of those factors I think lead him into being born again.

But eventually he snapped out of his depression and went back to Judaism. Getting back to my point, regardless of what Dylan was doing at the time, for John to be so vindicative in such a vulnerable period was wrong.

You dont treat friends that way. Also reading Geoff Emerick (beatles engineer) book he was very unjustly nasty to him. There is also the fact he helped in getting Paul busted for weed. (Though Yoko did most of the dirty work). And the reason was because Paul told John on the phone he was staying in the same hotel room that him and Yoko stayed in. He was afraid of Paul ruining his good karma there. John was heavily into mysticism and astrology at the time thanks to Yoko Those are just a few of the incidents.

Again, not trying to change your mind Nico, just explaining my point of view. I kept trying to look the other way. But when you find out more and more negative things about John coming from his own friends/family/colleagues it just becomes a buzzkill.

The man is a brilliant musician. I think he wrote some of the greatest songs ever. He lost touch with his own humanity. That is too disturbing to not let it distract me from enjoying his music.

Again, props to you Nico for staying true to John. I can't sadly enough. At least Lindsey worked on himself to his credit. So in the end I can still enjoy his work.

[Nico]

Yikes. I have so many things to say to all you wrote. Much of what you have written are merely half-truths and not even true (not necessarily your fault). Also, it seems you are taking something very silly/satirical and making it into something intentionally created to hurt, i.e.,"Serve Yourself". (You do realize that that particular song was not even released by John, right? That was just done in good humor in his bedroom or kitchen...yep, such was the utter brilliance of that man that throwaways could be taken that seriously.) Artists are not that anal about every little song/poem/word written about them. In any case, Geoff Emerick was, and remains, a Paul lackie. He hardly criticized John to the extent he slagged off George Harrison, dragged Ringo through the dirt, and brushed off George Martin's genius. I really don't pay him any mind. As far as what John did to Julian...parents can mess their kids up with very random acts of cruelty. What you fail to focus on is that John and Julian started getting very close towards the end of his life, that he made a valid effort to bond with his son, and that he had become an incredible father to his son Sean. People grow up, and John definitely did. I'm kind of done talking about it on here. PM me if you want to discuss further, as this is your Lindsey thread and I want to respect other Ledgies' desire to read about the Mac and not gossip about John Lennon's life- much of which is exaggerated and meant to hurt him post-mortem.

[ButterCookie]

Not because I don't think John committed sins and made errors, but the fact that you've chosen to believe every word of what has been written against him. Those who knew John the best-including his ex-wife- had incredibly wonderful things to say about him. Most of what has "tainted" his image was written by people who never even knew him. But to each his/her own.

This is the most important thing in this thread for me. I think unless someone knows Lindsey, or anyone famous, personally and has experienced the matter in question first hand then everything you read about them should perhaps be taken with a pinch of salt. Even if they say it themselves. The media is a cruel mistress.

Personally, nothing I have read about Liddy has made any difference to the way I listen to his music (except maybe "I was not shacking up!" because just the way Stevie said that makes me giggle every time) because like lots of other people who've said the same, his work and his personal life are two separate things to me.

[vivfox]

I recall a very messed up David Hasselhoff a few years ago going nuts on the phone with his young daughter.


I believe that was Alec Baldwin. David's daughter's filmed him on the floor drunk, sloppily eating a hamburger.

[bombaysaffires]

I've seen her say that no one knows everything that went on many times, but I never heard her discuss life with Lindsey or FM as a "nightmare." I've only seen her describe the Klonopin years that way. I have heard her say that hers and Lindsey's relationship was always volatile.

Michele

Oh I definitely have. If I had time I'd try digging some of the articles out, but I don't right now. At some point if I can, I will.

[michelej1]

Oh I definitely have. If I had time I'd try digging some of the articles out, but I don't right now. At some point if I can, I will.

Yes, please share if you find it. I only have her describing those times as volatile and she also says "tumultuous." "Nightmare" is reserved for what she experienced in later years, from what I've read.

Michele

[sodascouts]

As I've said elsewhere, for what it's worth, while I believe that in the past he may have acted out like that, I also believe he's changed and past mistakes should not necessarily be held against someone. I think he's the greatest living guitarist regardless.

[Dragonfly]

Hi everyone,

I've been visiting this site for many years and finally plucked up the courage to post!

I got into the band during the Tango In The Night era (that album was massive in the UK at the time) and fell in love with Lindsey, all of them in fact, but him in particular.

I'll stick with the subject though. I've read and seen many interviews with him, seen him in concert etc... much like many here, and I get the impression he has struggled with things that have happened in his life, the loss of his father (and later brother), his break up with Stevie, Carol Ann, Sherie. His frustration that Tusk wasn't appreciated at the time, his solo career not taking off like he'd hoped (and seeing Stevie having huge success) and I think he has battled with shyness/insecurity too. I get the impression that he was the 'black sheep' of the family, his father died before he really made it and I think it's caused him problems.

His epilepsy and drink/drugs has been a factor as people have said. Does it excuse him if he's been violent? No, of course not. However I agree with others, Stevie has said that her parents adored him, her brother toured with him I believe, now if my daughter/sister had been abused there is no way in hell I'd adore them or even give them the time of day, not a chance.

Lindsey has also been with his wife now since what 1997? That's a long time by any standards these days, and unless he has a strict pre-nup in place I doubt she'd tolerate any form of abuse from him. His kids also seem very comfortable around him.

I've rambled, but just to finish - firstly I really think Ken is out of order for saying some of the things he's said, didn't he also say something about Lindsey not enjoying being a father to Will until he was a few months old? Lindsey I'm sure didn't expect him to repeat that in public in case it upset his son when he was older. Secondly, as people have already said, how do we know that tons of people in the public eye haven't done similar or worse? John Lennon has been mentioned, but Bono, Sting or Mick Jagger could have done much the same. In fact Jagger pleaded with Jerry Hall not to release her biography, it never did get released - what (besides bedding anything with a pulse which was common knowledge anyway) did he have to hide?

Lindsey was a sweetheart when they toured England a few years ago (easily the nicest and most attentive of the band) so I think he has changed and unless something very bad comes out I'll never stop being a fan.

Apologies for long post!

P.S, I also love Tango (but not keen on Mirage).

[michelej1]

firstly I really think Ken is out of order for saying some of the things he's said, didn't he also say something about Lindsey not enjoying being a father to Will until he was a few months old?

What Ken said about Lindsey was:

“He said, ’I’m a selfish guy.’ Which is true, he’s all about me, me, me. He admitted he had even been angry about having a child to start with. Then one day the kid grabbed his little finger and he just got it. He understood there was another world out there.”

[Dragonfly]

What Ken said about Lindsey was: “He said, ’I’m a selfish guy.’ Which is true, he’s all about me, me, me. He admitted he had even been angry about having a child to start with. Then one day the kid grabbed his little finger and he just got it. He understood there was another world out there.”

Yes, that was it, thanks Michele.

Ok, not a big deal maybe - but I'm guessing Lindsey wasn't expecting him to tell an interviewer that he'd been 'angry' about having a child.

Ken just seems p*ssed off with the lot of them, and vice versa judging by their lack of contact with him.

That said, I always thought he (Ken) came across as a nice guy on the many docs I've seen him in.

[BlueDenimLamp]

All I really get from this thread is, it's ok to make fun of Stevie until the end of days. But touch Lindsey and all hell breaks lose. But what I don't get is the aggressiveness used. A "chiffonhead" defends Stevie and we are dumb and ignorant fans that need a life. But how dare you bring up Lindsey's past, he is a perfect angel.

BUMP!

Look 4 years later and nothing has changed...

[Danielle]

BUMP!

Look 4 years later and nothing has changed...

Madonna just said something very relevant earlier today at the Billboard Women In Music Awards:

"I stand before you as a doormat. Oh, I mean, as a female entertainer. Thank you for acknowledging my ability to continue my career for 34 years in the face of blatant sexism and misogyny and constant bullying and relentless abuse."

http://www.billboard.com/articles/events/women-in-music/7616927/madonna-billboard-woman-of-the-year-labrinth

[dreamsunwind]

BUMP!

Look 4 years later and nothing has changed...

I just read through a lot of this thread since I'd never seen it before-- the comment that you felt the need to 'bump' took a well thought-out discussion about a very serious issue having to do with Lindsey and some clearly troubling behavior and unnecessarily made it into something about Stevie versus Lindsey. It's actually kind of sad that someone would do that.

The topic of this thread has nothing to do with what's going on with the band right now and it really doesn't have much to do with Stevie at all.

Also, what that person wrote isn't even accurate because as I read through the thread, I saw almost entirely very thoughtful responses and discussion and no one was trying to say that Lindsey's an angel.

However I do agree that no one should be ragging on Stevie, but this has nothing to do with that.

[Fleetwood Jack]

I've got mad love for Mr. Phil Freakin' Collins. You just can't beat the awesomeness of Easy Lover or Sussidio.[/QUOTE]

YES! I'm not the only Phil Collins fanboy! I'm a drummer so he's like my hero when it comes to playing the drums. The stuff he does in Genesis is crazy. Especially in the Peter Gabriel years. But secretly I prefer the poppier/art rockier time with Phil Collins by a hair.

[jbrownsjr]

I've got mad love for Mr. Phil Freakin' Collins. You just can't beat the awesomeness of Easy Lover or Sussidio.

YES! I'm not the only Phil Collins fanboy! I'm a drummer so he's like my hero when it comes to playing the drums. The stuff he does in Genesis is crazy. Especially in the Peter Gabriel years. But secretly I prefer the poppier/art rockier time with Phil Collins by a hair.[/QUOTE]

The drumming he did during the Gabriel years in unreal. Super human.

[iamnotafraid]

Madonna just said something...

........yawn...