Gypsy as a derogatory term

[poetinmyheart]

So, I just thought I'd raise this issue here - am very interested to hear your opinions.

Over the past day or so there has been some serious tensions on tumblr. Some FM fans have been called out by other tumblr users (1 or 2 in particular) for posting the lyrics to Gypsy. They have been called racist as the term gypsy is a slur? Now, I understand in certain contexts the word gypsy could be used in a derogatory way, however being called a racist for posting the lyrics and the video I think is ridiculous. I would post the links to a particular tumblr page where there are extremely angry and venomous rants about how a group of teens/twenty somethings are racists for posting about the song, but not sure if I'm allowed.

Anyway, what are your thoughts and has this issue ever been raised before?

[CADreaming]

The word 'gypsy' did originally refer to an ethnic group of people and I believe they were known for being thieves and frauds. In some parts of the world, 'gypsy' may still be used to refer to people in this way, instead of the romanticized version which just means someone who is a nomad, carefree/free-spirited and travels around from place to place.

[chriskisn]

When you consider the word to be racist or not, it does and always did refer to the Romani people, of which there are still several million living in Europe. Over time the word has taken on a meaning of a carefree traveller, etc. However there are still many people who find the term derogatory. Kind of like American Indians, Negro, etc.

Whether you can claim someone is racist for posting lyrics to a song that someone else wrote would be quite a stretch of the imagination. There are plenty of songs around with much worse lyrics.

[WildHearted]

It can be used in a derogatory manner, or have negative implications, I suppose.

It is offensive to the Romani people because it's often used to insult them in some European countries, but it's really not considered a slur here in America by and large. They use the term Gypsy on the news when they talk about people's stuff getting stolen ('Gypsy Alert' literally), there's a TV show called My Big Fat Gypsy wedding.... I haven't heard any uproar about any of that (although I'm scared to google, I'm sure there has been, this is the internet).

Moreover, Gypsy was released thirty years ago and it is/was a pretty darn popular song, I've never heard any complaints about it probably because there's obviously no negative intent and I don't even get how you could spin it in a negative light. First of all, she's not talking about the ethnic group, anyway, and even if she were, it's very gypsy - positive... 'To the gypsies that remain..' These people on Tumblr are ridiculous.

[vivfox]

However there are still many people who find the term derogatory. Kind of like American Indians, Negro, etc.


Negro is a word I don't find offensive. Some people give donations to The United Negro College Fund. Not The United African American College Fund. No one seems to be up in arms over that one.
Just last year I referred to Asians as Orientals and was quickly corrected by several Ledgies as to the proper term. I honestly had no idea I was saying a racial slur until The Ledge corrected me.

I don't find Gypsy offensive.

[WildHearted]

^Similarly, apparently there are many Romani organizations that use the word 'Gypsy' in the title.

So....

[SummerlongBoots]

Does anyone remember Cher's Top 40 (and eventual #1) hit, "Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves?"

The track was written by Bob Stone as "Gypsies and White Trash" but experienced a name-change when producer Snuff Garrett advised Stone to do so. According to the liner notes in the 1999 compilation album, "The Best of Cher - Gypsies, Tramps & Thieves", the song was recorded on 9th June 1971.

http://chernews.blogspot.com/2011/09/40-years-ago-gypsies-tramps-thieves.html

[MikeInNV]

Honestly, anymore people just look for reasons to be offended. How stupid.

[Dodfather]

Yes, the term does have some derogatory connotations - particularly in the UK. However, to infer that from the lyrics to a popular song as posted on a forum by someone who describes themselves as a Stevie/FM fan is completely absurd.

[poetinmyheart]

Thanks for the thoughts everyone. It's all about context at the end of the day isn't it? It's almost become ridiculous on tumblr. I'm pretty certain that these people are now trawling the Stevie tag and stirring up trouble for the sake of it. Like I said on tumblr, I was very interested at first in what they had to say but the moment it started getting out of hand, I switched off. Their anti-racist message loses meaning for me when delivered in such a hate filled and venomous way.

[wild-heart]

People get so offended about everything these days. It's not used in an offensive context so I think they are just complaining for the sake of complaining.

[Kate]

As stated above, it can be derogatory sometimes, in certain contexts, but that doesn't negate the fact that it is also used in common parlance by Romani people themselves. Just look at that television show My Big, Fat Gypsy Wedding (which sometimes verges into being very offensive, I think...)

But some people are actively looking for things to call others out on. I don't know if it makes them feel better about themselves, or if they are honestly just disgusted 24/7 and need to share it with the world, but quoting a popular song (which isn't even actively derogatory itself!) should not come under such horrible scrutiny :(

[Jondalar]

As stated above, it can be derogatory sometimes, in certain contexts, but that doesn't negate the fact that it is also used in common parlance by Romani people themselves. Just look at that television show My Big, Fat Gypsy Wedding (which sometimes verges into being very offensive, I think...)

But some people are actively looking for things to call others out on. I don't know if it makes them feel better about themselves, or if they are honestly just disgusted 24/7 and need to share it with the world, but quoting a popular song (which isn't even actively derogatory itself!) should not come under such horrible scrutiny :(

Fake outrage, who is the biggest martyr - the somebody done me wrong song. blah

[chriskisn]

Negro is a word I don't find offensive.

Well I was figuring I better not use the other 'N' word on here. I constantly tell my mother-in-law off for using that one!

There was a sports stadium until 2008 in Australia that had an 'E.S. "N*****" Brown' grandstand. (stars are mine, you can fill in the rest). There has been much campaigning by certain Aboriginal activists to get that changed. Those who defend it, say that the N word was his nickname. Does that make it right? Good thing his nickname wasn't "F***head" :lol:

[icinglover1995]

I've never heard it called out as a racist term.. I've even heard some old people use it. "You look like a gypsy with all those rings on.." :laugh:

[BlueDenimLamp]

I just hope this whole thing doesn't get back to Mama...

[markolas]

I just hope this whole thing doesn't get back to Mama...

I hope it doesn't get back to Javier Pacheco! :laugh:

[WildHearted]

I hope it doesn't get back to Javier Pacheco! :laugh:

:laugh:

But really though.

[beccamorrisfift]

I enjoy pissing the anti-Gypsy people off.

[Dove]

I enjoy pissing the anti-Gypsy people off.

I've gotten some pretty nasty messages on Tumblr for posting Stevie lyrics. It's so backwards, they can accuse "white people" (as the anti-gypsys say) of being so racist for posting lyrics (and not even knowing the word was derogatory!) when they turn around and call me an "ignorant cracker". It's pretty messed up, I'm through responding to these people.

[TrueFaith77]

The word "gypsy" is not racist; a derivation such as "gypped" is racist. In Stevie's song, being a "gypsy" is seen as a positive thing. So any controversy over that is ridiculous, even if it's viewed as a white (and therefore privileged) woman's projection onto the wild, carefree racial "other"--at worst, that's just sociology.

[Sanne2]

Tumblr is full of people that take stuff too seriously.

[David]

I blame the school system.

[HejiraNYC]

I blame the school system.

I blame Wikipedia.

[Silver Springs]

I blame Wikipedia.

I blame Jerry Springer. No particular reason. I just hate the man.

As you were.

[WildHearted]

I've gotten some pretty nasty messages on Tumblr for posting Stevie lyrics. It's so backwards, they can accuse "white people" (as the anti-gypsys say) of being so racist for posting lyrics (and not even knowing the word was derogatory!) when they turn around and call me an "ignorant cracker". It's pretty messed up, I'm through responding to these people.


I mean, I'm a people pleaser so I hate when anyone is offended. I tried to respond rationally and I was OVERLY nice and I just got cursed at, called a concern troll, an idiot and told to f*ck off basically.

That girl fails to realize that by cursing at people, telling people to kill themselves and that she hopes they die.... she's being FAR more hateful than anyone quoting freaking Stevie Nicks lyrics was. Seriously. How hard is that to see?

Seriously the basically-death-threat type stuff is a problem.

[Silver Springs]

I mean, I'm a people pleaser so I hate when anyone is offended. I tried to respond rationally and I was OVERLY nice and I just got cursed at, called a concern troll, an idiot and told to f*ck off basically.

That girl fails to realize that by cursing at people, telling people to kill themselves and that she hopes they die.... she's being FAR more hateful than anyone quoting freaking Stevie Nicks lyrics was. Seriously. How hard is that to see?

Seriously the basically-death-threat type stuff is a problem.

I think the problem with online communication is that people can hide behind the profiles they've created for themselves so they can be unjustifiably confrontational and rude without any kind of real backlash.They think they can say what they wish with no repercussions. The fact that people tell others to kill themselves frankly scares me, because sometimes the people they bully with such comments are in such a bad place that they do just that. There's no concern for human life at all.

[WildHearted]

I think the problem with online communication is that people can hide behind the profiles they've created for themselves so they can be unjustifiably confrontational and rude without any kind of real backlash.They think they can say what they wish with no repercussions. The fact that people tell others to kill themselves frankly scares me, because sometimes the people they bully with such comments are in such a bad place that they do just that. There's no concern for human life at all.

Exactly. Personally, I can shrug it off... but it scares me that there are others who might not be able to. And it's just so dang hypocritical considering the whole issue is about hate-speech and offending people... and she's telling people she hopes they swallow a knife and stuff. :eek: Quite frankly, it's disgusting. And it completely devalues her entire side of the argument.

[poetinmyheart]

Exactly. Personally, I can shrug it off... but it scares me that there are others who might not be able to. And it's just so dang hypocritical considering the whole issue is about hate-speech and offending people... and she's telling people she hopes they swallow a knife and stuff. :eek: Quite frankly, it's disgusting. And it completely devalues her entire side of the argument.

You're right, it is disgusting. It's turned into a bit of a crusade for some now too. The fact is this whole thing started because someone was trawling tumblr spoiling for a fight. They have completely lost sight of the fact that this has all stemmed from a 30 year old song lyric - 'To the gypsy that remains..." / "And you see your gypsy..." There was no malicious intent or derogatory sentiment intended - it was merely the quoting of a popular song.

If it was being used in a malicious way, then I think that they are well within their right to take a stand. The fact is though, the word gypsy has been propagated in the media so much recently - My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding, documentaries - an Irish traveller was recently on celebrity big brother here in the UK (and won the show). Traveller weddings are featured in tabloid newspapers, as someone pointed out earlier, the word gypsy features in the name of many traveller charities. What I don't understand, is if the word gypsy is racist, why are so many Irish and Romani travellers scrambling to appear in shows and documentaries with the word gypsy in the title?

By all means, educate people about the history of Romani gypsies. But don't call a bunch of teenagers/20 somethings white supremacist b****es for posting Stevie Nicks lyrics. Surely their time is better spent else where :shrug:

[Travisevian]

So, I just thought I'd raise this issue here - am very interested to hear your opinions.

Over the past day or so there has been some serious tensions on tumblr. Some FM fans have been called out by other tumblr users (1 or 2 in particular) for posting the lyrics to Gypsy. They have been called racist as the term gypsy is a slur? Now, I understand in certain contexts the word gypsy could be used in a derogatory way, however being called a racist for posting the lyrics and the video I think is ridiculous. I would post the links to a particular tumblr page where there are extremely angry and venomous rants about how a group of teens/twenty somethings are racists for posting about the song, but not sure if I'm allowed.

Anyway, what are your thoughts and has this issue ever been raised before?

My thoughts? They would benefit from dictionaries.

[Sleepless-Child]

I think the problem with online communication is that people can hide behind the profiles they've created for themselves so they can be unjustifiably confrontational and rude without any kind of real backlash.They think they can say what they wish with no repercussions. The fact that people tell others to kill themselves frankly scares me, because sometimes the people they bully with such comments are in such a bad place that they do just that. There's no concern for human life at all.

I agree with the general idea but if someone actually kills him/herself because of a simple "kill yourself" on the internet, then it was just a matter of time before that happening...

Exactly. Personally, I can shrug it off... but it scares me that there are others who might not be able to. And it's just so dang hypocritical considering the whole issue is about hate-speech and offending people... and she's telling people she hopes they swallow a knife and stuff. :eek: Quite frankly, it's disgusting. And it completely devalues her entire side of the argument.

Now that's disgusting.


Romanis are actually calling themselves Gypsies sometimes, i'm sure of that, so people who pretend to defend them are not Romanis and have mostly no idea what real discrimination can be. And anyway that's a weird thing to say about this song, since we all know Stevie lives in her fairy world and only writes about herself :). She's not even aware of all of this.

[poetinmyheart]

My thoughts? They would benefit from dictionaries.

Yes!

And anyway that's a weird thing to say about this song, since we all know Stevie lives in her fairy world and only writes about herself :). She's not even aware of all of this.

And yes! :lol: Completely oblivious god bless her.

[Silver Springs]

I agree with the general idea but if someone actually kills him/herself because of a simple "kill yourself" on the internet, then it was just a matter of time before that happening...

I know. I know. But it's still wrong to be the person that "Poked them off of the cliff".

[Sleepless-Child]

And yes! :lol: Completely oblivious god bless her.

Well thank God, imagine Stevie talking about world issues?!! :O
Soldier's Angel is political enough. Now back to moons and stars and laces :)


(Illume doesn't count cause it's all airy fairy except for the chorus!)

[Sleepless-Child]

I know. I know. But it's still wrong to be the person that "Poked them off of the cliff".

Yeah you have a point.

[poetinmyheart]

Well thank God, imagine Stevie talking about world issues?!! :O
Soldier's Angel is political enough. Now back to moons and stars and laces :)


(Illume doesn't count cause it's all airy fairy except for the chorus!)

Haha, you're hilarious. Fairy dust not politics. Precisely! Maybe I should message that to the people getting so wound up on tumblr ;) I can only imagine what their response would be.

[Sleepless-Child]

Haha, you're hilarious. Fairy dust not politics. Precisely! Maybe I should message that to the people getting so wound up on tumblr ;) I can only imagine what their response would be.

"We know her! She's an evil witch!!"...yeah give it up :).

[Silver Springs]

"We know her! She's an evil witch!!"...yeah give it up :).

Stevie being constantly accused of being a witch reminds me of my school days. Even though I had bright purple hair, brightly coloured shirts (under my uniform) and a lovely pair of lime green Doc Martens I still had people leaning out of the classroom windows as I walked by, yelling "Goth!". I mean....What? I couldn't have looked less gothic if I'd topped my hair with a pink bow and a fluffy white kitten.

[Sleepless-Child]

Stevie being constantly accused of being a witch reminds me of my school days. Even though I had bright purple hair, brightly coloured shirts (under my uniform) and a lovely pair of lime green Doc Martens I still had people leaning out of the classroom windows as I walked by, yelling "Goth!". I mean....What? I couldn't have looked less gothic if I'd topped my hair with a pink bow and a fluffy white kitten.

:laugh: weird blind people. And that's when i'm seriously wondering what uniforms are for ?!! They always told me schools made their students wore them so that they wouldn't get categorised...right.

[Silver Springs]

:laugh: weird blind people. And that's when i'm seriously wondering what uniforms are for ?!! They always told me schools made their students wore them so that they wouldn't get categorised...right.

People will always find a way to categorise and judge people. Even if they wore the exact same thing and had the exact same haircut, the quirks that are completely randomised by nature are picked on. I for one couldn't give a shiny sh*t if somebody is fat, thin, has ginger hair, big ears or a blue arse. If you're a good person, I'm going to treat you like one. There's no excuse to make somebody who probably already feels so insecure feel any worse about themselves. I had enough of that sh*t at school myself.

[Sleepless-Child]

People will always find a way to categorise and judge people. Even if they wore the exact same thing and had the exact same haircut, the quirks that are completely randomised by nature are picked on. I for one couldn't give a shiny sh*t if somebody is fat, thin, has ginger hair, big ears or a blue arse. If you're a good person, I'm going to treat you like one. There's no excuse to make somebody who probably already feels so insecure feel any worse about themselves. I had enough of that sh*t at school myself.

That is just admirable :thumbsup:. We should all think like this.
And believe me i understand you.

[SaidSomething]

Negro is a word I don't find offensive. Some people give donations to The United Negro College Fund. Not The United African American College Fund. No one seems to be up in arms over that one.
Just last year I referred to Asians as Orientals and was quickly corrected by several Ledgies as to the proper term. I honestly had no idea I was saying a racial slur until The Ledge corrected me.

I don't find Gypsy offensive.

I find it offensive to be in certain social situations and the very people of certain ethnic, cultural, group...whatever...I hate it when "the offended" says "the offensive" terms, "n-word", "hey, Ho" "My Bitch" "hey, slam"...etc...
I used, "African American" once...the woman said, I'm black. I'm from Barbados and I'm not an American..." My grandmother still used the word, "colored" and she died just a few years ago...

I don't like it but, I still don't get it sometimes. I used the word, "Queer" in a large mostly gay group (I'm gay, myself) some dude apparantly listening to me speaking to my partner took such great offence that a crowd gathered and I was almost getting the circle around me as I was read this riot act...and I was waiting to get hit by thrown stones. Seriously, I have a very low voice and I was discussing my love for dolphins..."...and they're so queer, they are always smiling...and when I was sad I went to Santa Monica/PPAl beach...and once while swimming out past where the waves were breaking I was so heartbroken over...well, you know...so this massive group of these guys were doing the jumps in and out of the water in a group. So what was really queer is that something rough brushed my ankle and I was nervous for a second and before panic...I was amidst these dolphins. I was loving them swimming and kind of hanging out with me...it was only when my feet hit sand did I realize they guided me in without me panicking...the surf had gotten rough...the surf boarders were watching and I didn't notice I got carried by the current out so far...they were talking about "the shark sighting" and that is my queer story..."

From a big queer gay guy. In similar context...each time I used the word...I meant odd, strange...cool. Hey, I can't help it...sometimes my spelling is poor due to neglect but, I went to Emerson and UCLA and was majoring in Social Science and carrying a double with, the actor/thesbian thing in, "The Arts".

Sorry. I just love typing out my conversations with myself.

Jimbo:distress:

[Macfanforever]

The word "Hippy" leftover from the 60's.I heard people say that about Stevie and other artists from that era.

It's sad.Labeling people is never going to end.It's a disease that can't be cured.

[APerfectLie]

The whole argument is ridiculous! Instead of having a rational argument and trying to use the gypsy tag to inform people about real gypsies and the abuse and discrimination they continue to suffer today, they choose to go bat**** and call anyone using it racist. After I got attacked on Tumblr and was told to shut my ****ing mouth, I tried to explain to her that instead of attacking people on tumblr who are using gypsy in a non-discriminatory way, she should attack those who are physically harming her people and using the word gypsy as a slur and try to educate people about the opression so they get behind her cause. I was then called a dipsh*t, offal, a f*cking piece of sh*t, and was told to go fall on a spiked fence! Oh the rationality! :) Feel free to read it all if you please! amendswiththedeaf.tumblr.com

[poetinmyheart]

The whole argument is ridiculous! Instead of having a rational argument and trying to use the gypsy tag to inform people about real gypsies and the abuse and discrimination they continue to suffer today, they choose to go bat**** and call anyone using it racist. After I got attacked on Tumblr and was told to shut my ****ing mouth, I tried to explain to her that instead of attacking people on tumblr who are using gypsy in a non-discriminatory way, she should attack those who are physically harming her people and using the word gypsy as a slur and try to educate people about the opression so they get behind her cause. I was then called a dipsh*t, offal, a f*cking piece of sh*t, and was told to go fall on a spiked fence! Oh the rationality! :) Feel free to read it all if you please! amendswiththedeaf.tumblr.com

I meant to message you on tumblr this morning about the response to your post - utter madness. I think that you handled it well though. You were articulate and level headed considering the abuse.

[ButterCookie]

I just saw the original post that got all the hate from like, one person. That one person is a grumpy bunny.

Glad I track the Christine McVie tag and not the Stevie Nicks tag!

Tumblr is teaming with butthurt children who aren't witty enough to get replies on 4chan.

[Dove]

I feel kind of bad, actually. I mean, I THINK I was the first to ask how it was offensive and got bombarded with hate mail...

[ButterCookie]

Did you make the shirt? I think the person who started it off is whoever reblogged with that nasty, hateful comment on the t-shirt design. There are ways of putting opinions across and that person is clearly lacking in those skills, resulting in a blow up. If they'd just said "Actually, I find this really offensive [explains why in a rational manner]" then it wouldn't have blown up like it has done. When one person starts shouting everyone starts shouting back.

[TrueFaith77]

If I had any friends I'd suggest we all wear Gypsy shirts for NOTS.

[Dove]

Did you make the shirt? I think the person who started it off is whoever reblogged with that nasty, hateful comment on the t-shirt design. There are ways of putting opinions across and that person is clearly lacking in those skills, resulting in a blow up. If they'd just said "Actually, I find this really offensive [explains why in a rational manner]" then it wouldn't have blown up like it has done. When one person starts shouting everyone starts shouting back.

Oh no, that wasn't me. Whew! I was feeling pretty crumby for thinking I began this with a question haha. I don't get all the vulgar yelling, its rude and not needed really...

[poetinmyheart]

Oh no, that wasn't me. Whew! I was feeling pretty crumby for thinking I began this with a question haha. I don't get all the vulgar yelling, its rude and not needed really...

No, your question didn't start it. As ButterCookie said, it all started with someone posting a picture of a shirt design with the lyrics from gypsy. It was reblogged many times and then someone took offence. However rather than rationally saying that they find the use of the word gypsy in a song offensive, she went on a foul mouthed rant and started trawling the Stevie tag in order to continue it.

[ButterCookie]

I just asked my mum her opinion on this, because she's a Stevie fan and it turns out her uncle was Romani. And he never got offended by the term gypsy. I suppose it's a personal thing, like I wouldn't take offence at the word queer but I have gay friends who would. Still, if someone wants to get on their high horse, let them get on with it and laugh when they get egg on their face.

[Silver Springs]

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa23/LaVieBombal/derp.jpg

Casual racism. Negating any point you might have to make on Tumblr since 2007.

Herpy derp derp.