What early Pre-Rumours era songs do you consider to be "hits"?

[MacShadowsBall]

So on the Rumours forum I'm running a contest to find out the favorite non-hit Fleetwood Mac. Ledgies over there have varying opinion of what can be defined as a "hit". Do you go by the songs that were released as singles and charted well, how well and which charts, what if the song is recently discovered and now is well-liked?

So post the songs you feel shouldn't be eligible in the favorite non-hit song contest. :cool:

Thanks! :wavey:

[absinthe_boy]

So on the Rumours forum I'm running a contest to find out the favorite non-hit Fleetwood Mac. Ledgies over there have varying opinion of what can be defined as a "hit". Do you go by the songs that were released as singles and charted well, how well and which charts, what if the song is recently discovered and now is well-liked?

So post the songs you feel shouldn't be eligible in the favorite non-hit song contest. :cool:

Thanks! :wavey:

A hit single is generally defined as having cracked the top 40 of the singles chart.

In the UK that would be 'The Official Charts Company' as reported on BBC Radio - it's pretty simple for stuff prior to digital downloads. A Single is defined as a recording released to the public with no more than four tracks and the total running time being under 20 minutes (from memory...it might be very slightly different).

For example obviously Albatross was a hit. But a track that was released as a single and didn't crack the top 40 wasn't.

You might like to tighten the definition as to which country you are in...for the USA it would be the main Billboard chart, for example, but a hit is still usually defined as "top 40"

The Guinness Book of Hit Singles is a good starting point.

[elle]

For example obviously Albatross was a hit. But a track that was released as a single and didn't crack the top 40 wasn't.

You might like to tighten the definition as to which country you are in...for the USA it would be the main Billboard chart, for example, but a hit is still usually defined as "top 40"

The Guinness Book of Hit Singles is a good starting point.

some great info here! :nod:

[MacShadowsBall]

So here's what I'm thinking should be considered early Pre-Rumours era hits...

Shake Your Moneymaker
Black Magic Woman
Need You Love So Bad
Albatross
Man of the World
Oh Well
The Green Manalishi

Also I'm not sure about the Christine/Welch era since it seems that none of their songs charted. :distress:

[jeremy spencer]

So here's what I'm thinking should be considered early Pre-Rumours era hits...

Black Magic Woman
Need You Love So Bad
Albatross
Man of the World
Oh Well
The Green Manalishi

Also I'm not sure about the Christine/Welch era since it seems that none of their songs charted.

'Considered to be hits'? These all charted in England, 4 of them at #1.:confused:

[dansven]

"Shake Your Moneymaker" was a hit in Norway. It was released as a 1968 single, which I got hold of recently.

[iamnotafraid]

'Considered to be hits'? These all charted in England, 4 of them at #1.:confused:

Had no idea that there were four number 1's.

Too bad this band couldn't continue.

[elle]

Had no idea that there were four number 1's.

Too bad this band couldn't continue.

these are unbelievable songs... all written in such short period of time!

[iamnotafraid]

these are unbelievable songs... all written in such short period of time!

One day I'm going to take the time to make
a seriously good compilation from this time
period.

[slipkid]

Had no idea that there were four number 1's.

Too bad this band couldn't continue.

I completely agree! Do you know if Mick Fleetwood, and John McVie were busted in New Orleans 1/70, along with the Grateful Dead that there's no Buckingham/Nicks verson of FM??? Fleetwood, and McVie would've been deported from the United States, forever!

Back to your "too bad" point, Peter Green's timing was off by six months. If Green had waited at least to the end of 1970 to leave FM, America would've heard the Boston Tea Party tapes as a 2 LP live album. It would've changed the band in America. Because Green left late 5/70, those tapes didn't see the light of day until Lindsay Buckingham left FM in 1985.

You have to understand, FM used to be a Cream, LZ, Who, Faces, Rolling Stones, Jimi Hendrix band under Peter Green. When FM went "California". That unreleased Peter Green material would if released during the mid/late 1970's completely undermine the "pop" version of Fleetwood Mac. Mick Fleetwood is a good Den mother.

[aleuzzi]

If Green had waited at least to the end of 1970 to leave FM, America would've heard the Boston Tea Party tapes as a 2 LP live album. It would've changed the band in America. Because Green left late 5/70, those tapes didn't see the light of day until Lindsay Buckingham left FM in 1985.

This is very true. The band were on the verge of becoming a viable force on the heavy rock scene in the US. But even by the beginning of 1970, Green was pretty much not interested in anymore. This didn't stop him from continuing to make great music right up til the end of his tenure with FM--and often beyond. Once Green left, the band struggled for a new image that was neither as heavy as acts like Deep Purple nor as commercially viable as the early Doobie Brothers. They were respected musicians without a hook image.

[slipkid]

This is very true. The band were on the verge of becoming a viable force on the heavy rock scene in the US. But even by the beginning of 1970, Green was pretty much not interested in anymore. This didn't stop him from continuing to make great music right up til the end of his tenure with FM--and often beyond. Once Green left, the band struggled for a new image that was neither as heavy as acts like Deep Purple nor as commercially viable as the early Doobie Brothers. They were respected musicians without a hook image.

"Future Games" with Welch was an attempt at "UK prog rock" at the time. I've always loved the title song. Yet Danny Kirwan was still writing beautiful songs through "Bare Trees". His post FM solo work is not to be overlooked.

Without Peter Green, Kirwan was like a rudderless ship in a large stormy ocean. Kirwan had the talent, but lost the fire. Then came the ugly conclusion.

To emphasize how important those Boston Tea Party tapes would've been for FM, they would've pre-dated the Allmans' "Live at the Fillmore East" by at least a year! Not only that, FM would've been in direct competition with The Who's "Live at Leeds", and The Rolling Stones "Get Your Ya Ya's Out" live albums. Green, and Kirwan were playing harmonizing guitar leads live just as Allman, and Betts.

Yet if America heard the BTP album first....? That's a huge game changer for Fleetwood Mac.

[aleuzzi]

"Future Games" with Welch was an attempt at "UK prog rock" at the time. I've always loved the title song. Yet Danny Kirwan was still writing beautiful songs through "Bare Trees". His post FM solo work is not to be overlooked.

Agreed on both accounts. The title tune of Future Games sounds like songs from Pink Floyd's Meddle. I've always loved most of the entire album, too. Danny's work was gorgeous but he needed a tougher counterpoint to really spark. Oddly, the only truly weak song and vocal performance on FG is Christine's Morning Rain, which sounds way better in the earlier version they were floating to radio stations before the album's release. It's bizarre how badly her vocals are here when they are so wonderful on Show Me a Smile.

[slipkid]

I always thought "Show Me a Smile" was the first seed that started the road to the American west coast. I don't think that song would've been out of place on the 1975 self-titled album.

By what you typed, I think you agree that without Peter Green as some older brother/mentor, Kirwan's songs' were influenced by the band's direction.

Kirwan had to abandon a lot of his great material after Green left. I think this had a tremendous negative effect on his psyche.

[aleuzzi]

I
Kirwan had to abandon a lot of his great material after Green left. I think this had a tremendous negative effect on his psyche.

That's true--including a lot of great tunes like "Like it This Way," etc. FM said they were done with blues when Welch joined (he told this to Samuel Graham in 1977). But I wonder why they didn't try to hold on just a little more to some of their past. A number of tunes from the Christine Perfect album would've sounded dynamite in a FM context, for example. The live-in-studio version of Crazy Bout You Baby is a perfect example.

It appears Kirwan was a leading force in the band's musical direction from 1970-72. But without Green's tough, heavier approach to songwriting, Kriwan's folksier songs, though excellent, seem paler than they ought alongside Welch's and McVie's. Child of Mine is a notable exception. Large portions of that tune are amazing. And Dust is concise an effective in a way Sands of Time is not. I wish he had stayed in the band.

I wish it were possible for him to have stayed.

[slipkid]

I think the perfect FM scenario would've been if Jeremy Spencer left as he did 2/71 while Peter Green was still in the band. FM chose Christine McVie to replace Spencer on the fly. Not to mention the Boston Tea Party album is released worldwide.

Since Christine had the blues chops with Chicken Shack, and playing with FM for "Mr. Wonderful" , it would've worked! That band would've been a monster.

If parallel universe's exist, this would be one outcome of Fleetwood Mac. :lol:

[jeremy spencer]

I think the perfect FM scenario would've been if Jeremy Spencer left as he did 2/71 while Peter Green was still in the band. FM chose Christine McVie to replace Spencer on the fly. Not to mention the Boston Tea Party album is released worldwide.

Since Christine had the blues chops with Chicken Shack, and playing with FM for "Mr. Wonderful" , it would've worked! That band would've been a monster.

If parallel universe's exist, this would be one outcome of Fleetwood Mac. :lol:

...I'm inclined to agree.

[aleuzzi]

I think the perfect FM scenario would've been if Jeremy Spencer left as he did 2/71 while Peter Green was still in the band. FM chose Christine McVie to replace Spencer on the fly. Not to mention the Boston Tea Party album is released worldwide.

Since Christine had the blues chops with Chicken Shack, and playing with FM for "Mr. Wonderful" , it would've worked! That band would've been a monster.

If parallel universe's exist, this would be one outcome of Fleetwood Mac. :lol:

I thought Welch replaced Spencer. Christine toured with Jeremy and the remaining FM members for an entire tour. She was brought in to "fill out the sound" in the absence of a third guitarist.

Totally agree about the exciting possibility of Christine playing with Green, Kirwan, etc...I've always loved her piano parts on the Green songs for Mr. Wonderful. Top notch.

[Wouter Vuijk]

Totally agree about the exciting possibility of Christine playing with Green, Kirwan, etc...I've always loved her piano parts on the Green songs for Mr. Wonderful. Top notch.

Maybe, but Mr. Wonderful did not include Danny, and had a big reliance on Jeremy. So that line-up actually did very well.

[slipkid]

I thought Welch replaced Spencer. Christine toured with Jeremy and the remaining FM members for an entire tour. She was brought in to "fill out the sound" in the absence of a third guitarist.

Totally agree about the exciting possibility of Christine playing with Green, Kirwan, etc...I've always loved her piano parts on the Green songs for Mr. Wonderful. Top notch.

I'm writing if Peter Green stayed in FM, and had not left 5/70. There would be no need for a replacement for any member until 2/71. There would also be no "Kiln House", but I'm sure Danny's songs from that album would've been released later with Peter Green's influence.

It's one thing for Green to replace Spencer to play "Kiln House" songs on tour as it happened, vs. Christine joining the band to play Peter Green/Danny Kirwan songs.

[slipkid]

Maybe, but Mr. Wonderful did not include Danny, and had a big reliance on Jeremy. So that line-up actually did very well.

Jeremy Spencer's version of "Shake Your Moneymaker", is balls on blues! It proved that the Brits could do it better than John Mayall, and he was the godfather after Alexis Korner. It also made the Paul Butterfield version sound "white suburban blues, American style". Spencer's slide ability was beyond reproach for all white guitarists at the time (pre Duane Allman), yet Spencer fell into an Ellmore James rut. "Mr. Wonderful" is that example.

[Wouter Vuijk]

It proved that the Brits could do it better than John Mayall.

John Mayall is Brit as well :cool:

[THD]

I'm writing if Peter Green stayed in FM, and had not left 5/70. There would be no need for a replacement for any member until 2/71. There would also be no "Kiln House", but I'm sure Danny's songs from that album would've been released later with Peter Green's influence.

It's one thing for Green to replace Spencer to play "Kiln House" songs on tour as it happened, vs. Christine joining the band to play Peter Green/Danny Kirwan songs.

I don't think Jeremy would have quit when he did , if the above Peter Green scenario had happened .Peter would have still been shouldering the "Front Man" responsibilities and the songwriting load -expectation of top ten hits-(probably uncomfortably given his state of mind and phillosophy ) but if still committed to the band, would have done it and taken the pressure of Jeremy and Danny

[doodyhead]

In a parallell universe Jeremy would have realized that Peter loved him playing piano or rhythm guitar ian if he embraced that the question would never had come up. Johnny Almond or dick hextall smith or christine perfect or Steve gregorywere available if needed. Danny would not have been necessary for duty to be second guitar for Peter just as peter was second guitar for Jeremy.
People are human and choices are made in a changing universe. Peter was most likely on the way out when he was on the way in. And of course in a perfect world there would have been no sixties to change the course of everyones lives.

A Fringe Thought, no doubt

[THD]

In a parallell universe Jeremy would have realized that Peter loved him playing piano or rhythm guitar ian if he embraced that the question would never had come up. Johnny Almond or dick hextall smith or christine perfect or Steve gregorywere available if needed. Danny would not have been necessary for duty to be second guitar for Peter just as peter was second guitar for Jeremy.
People are human and choices are made in a changing universe. Peter was most likely on the way out when he was on the way in. And of course in a perfect world there would have been no sixties to change the course of everyones lives.

A Fringe Thought, no doubt

Quite right Doodyhead This Jeremy not playing second guitar for Peter's songs situation has always puzzled me It's not like Jeremy could only play on a guitar set to an open tuning -surely !- or even that he only had one guitar available and didn't want to constantly change the tuning ,which is a pain I must admit !. It was inevitable that a third guitarist would be required to provide the chordal harmony to Peter's lead (This was ,as it turned out, not a bad thing ,as this three guitar line up produced three of the four greatest concerts I've ever seen !¬)

Jeremy, if you're out there ,you were very open in the Peter Green Documentery when you were talking candidly about not having anything to offer when Then Play On was being made ,perhaps you could be equally candid here , and cast some light on this backing guitar situation Peter obviously greatly admired your playing ,and was ,I have always felt ,very fond of you as a person which is why he allowed youto slope offstage ,leaving them as a trio to play Peter's numbers -something I suspect he would not have tollerated from anyone else .! Was it just lack of self confidence in your straight (non open tuning¬) guitar playing ? I can't believe that !

And while I'm at it - I too love Christine's piano playing on the Mr Wonderful tracks (which I also think have some of Peter's best phrasing ever ) but why weren't you playing piano , did they suggest it to you but you declined ?

[slipkid]

John Mayall is Brit as well :cool:

My analogy was that Mayall did it better than Alexis Korner. FM did it better than Mayall. I was writing that the British blues movement went beyond Mayall.

[slipkid]

Quite right Doodyhead This Jeremy not playing second guitar for Peter's songs situation has always puzzled me It's not like Jeremy could only play on a guitar set to an open tuning -surely !- or even that he only had one guitar available and didn't want to constantly change the tuning ,which is a pain I must admit !. It was inevitable that a third guitarist would be required to provide the chordal harmony to Peter's lead (This was ,as it turned out, not a bad thing ,as this three guitar line up produced three of the four greatest concerts I've ever seen !¬)

Jeremy, if you're out there ,you were very open in the Peter Green Documentery when you were talking candidly about not having anything to offer when Then Play On was being made ,perhaps you could be equally candid here , and cast some light on this backing guitar situation Peter obviously greatly admired your playing ,and was ,I have always felt ,very fond of you as a person which is why he allowed youto slope offstage ,leaving them as a trio to play Peter's numbers -something I suspect he would not have tollerated from anyone else .! Was it just lack of self confidence in your straight (non open tuning¬) guitar playing ? I can't believe that !

And while I'm at it - I too love Christine's piano playing on the Mr Wonderful tracks (which I also think have some of Peter's best phrasing ever ) but why weren't you playing piano , did they suggest it to you but you declined ?



The cause, and effect! So what you, and vinnie are writing is that if Peter Green stayed, Jeremy Spencer would have no need to leave because Peter Green was the natural leader of the band. Yet if you saw the 2007 BBC Peter Green documentary, Jeremy felt like he had nothing else to offer after "Then Play On". If you read Jeremy Spencer's reply to my "dream" scenario, he didn't offer a different opinion.

What bothers me most, is that every known recording post Munich 3/70, Peter Green plays the best guitar of his career. Stockholm's 4/1/70 version of "I've Got a Good Mind to Give Up Living" crushes the famous New Orleans version from 1/70. Carlos Santana couldn't touch Peter Green's version of "Black Magic Woman" from the Roundhouse Chalk Farm, 4/24/70.

So how does "Syd Barrett #2" according to den mother Mick Fleetwood play his best guitar after "he took a trip, and never came back" in Munich 3/70? Not to mention lumping Danny Kirwan into the incident. While Peter Green did become sick a couple years later, blaming him for leaving 5/70 was not because he was mentally ill.

While Mick Fleetwood has done a lot for former FM members, his spin of the "myth" of FM is really disingenuous.

[THD]

The cause, and effect! So what you, and vinnie are writing is that if Peter Green stayed, Jeremy Spencer would have no need to leave because Peter Green was the natural leader of the band. Yet if you saw the 2007 BBC Peter Green documentary, Jeremy felt like he had nothing else to offer after "Then Play On". If you read Jeremy Spencer's reply to my "dream" scenario, he didn't offer a different opinion.

What bothers me most, is that every known recording post Munich 3/70, Peter Green plays the best guitar of his career. Stockholm's 4/1/70 version of "I've Got a Good Mind to Give Up Living" crushes the famous New Orleans version from 1/70. Carlos Santana couldn't touch Peter Green's version of "Black Magic Woman" from the Roundhouse Chalk Farm, 4/24/70.

So how does "Syd Barrett #2" according to den mother Mick Fleetwood play his best guitar after "he took a trip, and never came back" in Munich 3/70? Not to mention lumping Danny Kirwan into the incident. While Peter Green did become sick a couple years later, blaming him for leaving 5/70 was not because he was mentally ill.

While Mick Fleetwood has done a lot for former FM members, his spin of the "myth" of FM is really disingenuous.

I think Peter was always the rather uneasy natural leader I don't think he particularly wanted to be ,but he did it and did it superbly .
I thought Jeremy said he had nothinhg to offer song wise for the album , and I assumed (I mean what I concluded 40 years ago when I was reading that he wasnt involved via the music press ) wast hat he was not confident in composing original material which I absolutely sympathise with .(sticking another three ELmore James tracks on Then Play on would have been a mistake )But he had plenty to offer post TPO -the live performances some of the finest ever as demonstrated in you quite rightly beloved Boston Tea Party recordings for example As Doody head so rightly said in one of his posts- you got three great bands for the price of one when they played live !

I absolutely agree with you about Peter's finest playing post Munich(though the sparse and beautifully phrased playing of the Mr.Wonderful era is up there with it in my opinion)¬ whatever happened there did not affect his playing ,dare I say that I go the impression from his interveiws in the doc, that he felt it helped , or he felt he did wonderful playing whilst there (not Jeremy's opinion at all if I recall correctly )¬but this does not mean that he wasnt in torment in his personal life or his spirituality To be fair to Mick, he says that they were unaware of what was going on ie the lyrics to Manalishi -they thought they were just song lyrics ,and we thought they were just song lyrics( of a great song )and there was no indication on stage- his inter song chat- that anything was amiss .

Jeremy himself said that he felt Danny was badly affected by Munich (till I saw this doc I had no idea Danny was even there for 40 years the story was that Peter was there all by himself virtually kidnapped !) So it's not just Mick's spin

[slipkid]

I think Peter was always the rather uneasy natural leader I don't think he particularly wanted to be ,but he did it and did it superbly .
I thought Jeremy said he had nothinhg to offer song wise for the album , and I assumed (I mean what I concluded 40 years ago when I was reading that he wasnt involved via the music press ) wast hat he was not confident in composing original material which I absolutely sympathise with .(sticking another three ELmore James tracks on Then Play on would have been a mistake )But he had plenty to offer post TPO -the live performances some of the finest ever as demonstrated in you quite rightly beloved Boston Tea Party recordings for example As Doody head so rightly said in one of his posts- you got three great bands for the price of one when they played live !

I absolutely agree with you about Peter's finest playing post Munich(though the sparse and beautifully phrased playing of the Mr.Wonderful era is up there with it in my opinion)¬ whatever happened there did not affect his playing ,dare I say that I go the impression from his interveiws in the doc, that he felt it helped , or he felt he did wonderful playing whilst there (not Jeremy's opinion at all if I recall correctly )¬but this does not mean that he wasnt in torment in his personal life or his spirituality To be fair to Mick, he says that they were unaware of what was going on ie the lyrics to Manalishi -they thought they were just song lyrics ,and we thought they were just song lyrics( of a great song )and there was no indication on stage- his inter song chat- that anything was amiss .

Jeremy himself said that he felt Danny was badly affected by Munich (till I saw this doc I had no idea Danny was even there for 40 years the story was that Peter was there all by himself virtually kidnapped !) So it's not just Mick's spin

I just watched the brand new "Classic Albums" documentary on Pink Floyd's "Wish You Were Here". "Shine On You Crazy Diamond" was a tribute to the original guitarist in PF. Syd Barrett's trigger from reality happened over a long weekend in late 1967. When he came back, you could see it in his eyes, he had "shut down". After that "incident" Syd Barrett would not play his guitar on stage for periods of time. He would just stand there staring into space while the rest of the band was playing. Does this even remotely describe Peter Green after his "incident"??? Roky Erickson, and Skip Spence are closer to Syd Barrett, than Peter Green.

Of all the "acid casualties", Peter Green seemed to be doing well 5/70. As I said Mick Fleetwood in his head has justified Peter Green leaving FM over drugs, vs. boredom. Logic says, why did FM desperately ask Peter Green back to fill in for Spencer, when he went on his own path? I don't think Pink Floyd would've asked Syd Barrett to fill in for David Gilmour, because David found a "new beginning" in Los Angeles. Do I need to use a sledgehammer to make my point!?!? :blob2:

[Ms Moose]

I just watched the brand new "Classic Albums" documentary on Pink Floyd's "Wish You Were Here". "Shine On You Crazy Diamond" was a tribute to the original guitarist in PF. Syd Barrett's trigger from reality happened over a long weekend in late 1967. When he came back, you could see it in his eyes, he had "shut down". After that "incident" Syd Barrett would not play his guitar on stage for periods of time. He would just stand there staring into space while the rest of the band was playing. Does this even remotely describe Peter Green after his "incident"??? Roky Erickson, and Skip Spence are closer to Syd Barrett, than Peter Green.

Of all the "acid casualties", Peter Green seemed to be doing well 5/70. As I said Mick Fleetwood in his head has justified Peter Green leaving FM over drugs, vs. boredom. Logic says, why did FM desperately ask Peter Green back to fill in for Spencer, when he went on his own path? I don't think Pink Floyd would've asked Syd Barrett to fill in for David Gilmour, because David found a "new beginning" in Los Angeles. Do I need to use a sledgehammer to make my point!?!? :blob2:

You really have made your (the) point, slipkid. There is a tendency in us humans to find the easy explanations to very complex things and events that we don't understand or don't want to take responsibillity for (like noticing that your friend is in trouble). I think Mich Reynolds is quoted in the Celmins Biography on Peter Green saying, that the development of his mental problems was a slow development. I happened over some time. Taking acid didn't help the latent condition, but it was taking acid, being overworked and being a sensitive soul exposed to too much too soon over some time that made him ill.
The Hamburg myth is the easy explanation.

IMHO

Ms Moose

[jeremy spencer]

I think Mich Reynolds is quoted in the Celmins Biography on Peter Green saying, that the development of his mental problems was a slow development. I happened over some time. Taking acid didn't help the latent condition, but it was taking acid, being overworked and being a sensitive soul exposed to too much too soon over some time that made him ill.
The Hamburg myth is the easy explanation.

IMHO

Ms Moose

...or rather, Mich said it. It happened over time, and the 'held captive in Munich and spiked/drugged' is a myth. Peter was there of his own accord and volition, enjoyed himself and liked the people involved. Rainer Langhans and and Uschi Obermeyer were not so interested in FM or even PG, as they were in getting in contact with the Rolling Stones in order to have a Munich Woodstock/Altamont festival.

[iamnotafraid]

...or rather, Mich said it. It happened over time, and the 'held captive in Munich and spiked/drugged' is a myth. Peter was there of his own accord and volition, enjoyed himself and liked the people involved.

Jeremy are you saying that when John McVie mentions
how mad he was at the people responsible for Peter's spiked/
drugged ordeal and would like to do something about it,
that he's wrong about the situation?

[slipkid]

...or rather, Mich said it. It happened over time, and the 'held captive in Munich and spiked/drugged' is a myth. Peter was there of his own accord and volition, enjoyed himself and liked the people involved. Rainer Langhans and and Uschi Obermeyer were not so interested in FM or even PG, as they were in getting in contact with the Rolling Stones in order to have a Munich Woodstock/Altamont festival.

THANK YOU! Jeremy Spencer has finally opened Mick Fleetwoods' "Pandora's Box".

You were quoted while filmed for the 2007 BBC PG doc, that you heard sounds from the basement in Munich that sounded "evil". Was it just a guitarist with a Wah pedal among Germans? I'd feel the same way.

I watched a movie based on Uschi Obermaier's life three years ago with German subtitles. The see you next Tuesday person never mentioned Peter Green. If you are a fan of Keith Richards, and the Stones...go to town!

[jeremy spencer]

Jeremy are you saying that when John McVie mentions
how mad he was at the people responsible for Peter's spiked/
drugged ordeal and would like to do something about it,
that he's wrong about the situation?

John knows and respects mine on the situation.

[Alan Olson]

John knows and respects mine on the situation.

I find it interesting that Jeremy believes that Peters personality changed over a period of time and Mick/John seem to believe that it was almost right away...

His personality changing is one thing but I believe his playing was spot on right thru End Of The Game.

Since none of us fans were there all we can do is guess.

As Jeremy titles his reply is truly is "A matter of perspective"

[sharksfan2000]

THANK YOU! Jeremy Spencer has finally opened Mick Fleetwoods' "Pandora's Box".

You were quoted while filmed for the 2007 BBC PG doc, that you heard sounds from the basement in Munich that sounded "evil". Was it just a guitarist with a Wah pedal among Germans? I'd feel the same way.

I watched a movie based on Uschi Obermaier's life three years ago with German subtitles. The see you next Tuesday person never mentioned Peter Green. If you are a fan of Keith Richards, and the Stones...go to town!

While I obviously have no way of knowing what that music may have sounded like, considering that Uschi Obermaier is considered an early member of the German band Amon Düül, it would not be a stretch to imagine that the members of the High-Fish commune might have tried to emulate their music. Check Youtube clips of their early recordings and you could see where Peter Green in 1970 may well have been drawn to their style.

Here's an example of the original Amon Düül, before they split into "Amon Düül I" and "Amon Düül II":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApGMTYTKIKA

And here's some early Amon Düül II (generally more professional and structured music than the original Amon Düül):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJThEDJ5-Y8

Even as well-traveled as the band was by early 1970, the people and music at the High-Fish commune might well have been something new to them - perhaps exciting to Peter Green but somewhat strange and a bit frightening to the other band members.

[jeremy spencer]

While I obviously have no way of knowing what that music may have sounded like, considering that Uschi Obermaier is considered an early member of the German band Amon Düül, it would not be a stretch to imagine that the members of the High-Fish commune might have tried to emulate their music. Check Youtube clips of their early recordings and you could see where Peter Green in 1970 may well have been drawn to their style.

Here's an example of the original Amon Düül, before they split into "Amon Düül I" and "Amon Düül II":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApGMTYTKIKA

And here's some early Amon Düül II (generally more professional and structured music than the original Amon Düül):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJThEDJ5-Y8

Even as well-traveled as the band was by early 1970, the people and music at the High-Fish commune might well have been something new to them - perhaps exciting to Peter Green but somewhat strange and a bit frightening to the other band members.

We heard trance-inducing stuff like that played by amateurs all over the USA at that time, especially LA and SF, only done better. That was why the whole affair was so puzzling. But it's amazing what you can think is so great when recording on acid and deplore afterwards when you're straight. BTDT and I rest my case.

[sharksfan2000]

We heard trance-inducing stuff like that played by amateurs all over the USA at that time, especially LA and SF, only done better. That was why the whole affair was so puzzling. But it's amazing what you can think is so great when recording on acid and deplore afterwards when you're straight. BTDT and I rest my case.
Thanks for the response, Jeremy - great to hear the input of someone who was actually there!

[jeremy spencer]

I find it interesting that Jeremy believes that Peters personality changed over a period of time and Mick/John seem to believe that it was almost right away...

His personality changing is one thing but I believe his playing was spot on right thru End Of The Game.

Since none of us fans were there all we can do is guess.

As Jeremy titles his reply is truly is "A matter of perspective"

... who became very close to him and tried to help him.

[slipkid]

I find it interesting that Jeremy believes that Peters personality changed over a period of time and Mick/John seem to believe that it was almost right away...

His personality changing is one thing but I believe his playing was spot on right thru End Of The Game.

Since none of us fans were there all we can do is guess.

As Jeremy titles his reply is truly is "A matter of perspective"

Peter Green jammed with the Allman Brothers at the New Orleans Warehouse early 11/70. The story goes that a curious man dressed in a floral shirt was dancing side-stage to the opening act; Procol Harum. Later that evening, the Allman Brothers played their first act, with an intermission. The second act began at midnight, and the "curious man dressed in a floral shirt" had a guitar on his shoulder. He joined the Allmans' to play "Mountain Jam" for the next three hours. By 3AM, Duane Allman called the show because Jaimoe, and Butch Trucks were wiped! That mystery guitar player was Peter Green.

[slipkid]

While I obviously have no way of knowing what that music may have sounded like, considering that Uschi Obermaier is considered an early member of the German band Amon Düül, it would not be a stretch to imagine that the members of the High-Fish commune might have tried to emulate their music. Check Youtube clips of their early recordings and you could see where Peter Green in 1970 may well have been drawn to their style.

Here's an example of the original Amon Düül, before they split into "Amon Düül I" and "Amon Düül II":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApGMTYTKIKA

And here's some early Amon Düül II (generally more professional and structured music than the original Amon Düül):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJThEDJ5-Y8

Even as well-traveled as the band was by early 1970, the people and music at the High-Fish commune might well have been something new to them - perhaps exciting to Peter Green but somewhat strange and a bit frightening to the other band members.

It's called "Krautrock", another word for German progressive rock. Forty years later, Krautrock is so volitile it broke up a great 90's UK band; Supergrass in 2010. The best Krautrock band from the period was called Can.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QLL2j8ZtxE

I can see why Peter Green loved this music. Think if 1969 King Crimson, and Peter Green's version of FM had a beautiful baby.

How do you think Peter Green wrote "The Green Manalishi" in 1969? He was aware of this music, at least five months before "Munich".

[Alan Olson]

Peter Green jammed with the Allman Brothers at the New Orleans Warehouse early 11/70. The story goes that a curious man dressed in a floral shirt was dancing side-stage to the opening act; Procol Harum. Later that evening, the Allman Brothers played their first act, with an intermission. The second act began at midnight, and the "curious man dressed in a floral shirt" had a guitar on his shoulder. He joined the Allmans' to play "Mountain Jam" for the next three hours. By 3AM, Duane Allman called the show because Jaimoe, and Butch Trucks were wiped! That mystery guitar player was Peter Green.

Would love to hear this.... Does anybody know of the exact date of this show? I have some friends that are Allman - Heads who have lots of bootlegs of the Allmans from this period...

[slipkid]

Would love to hear this.... Does anybody know of the exact date of this show? I have some friends that are Allman - Heads who have lots of bootlegs of the Allmans from this period...


Been there, and have done that! Nothing!

[mzero]

Would love to hear this.... Does anybody know of the exact date of this show? I have some friends that are Allman - Heads who have lots of bootlegs of the Allmans from this period...

hi alan, see sharksfan2000 post on ledge pg forum 1/30/2007. this has come up a lot over the years. more grail are studio jams of peter with the allmans that are supposed to be in the capricorn records archives. i think those are the same time period they are definitely after pete left fm.... zero

[doodyhead]

Four hours of black magic woman jam at fillmore east in 1971
the tapes of the munich commune jam.. allegedly in the hands of jane samuels in california
the tom dowd recordings of Peter Green and Duane Allman in Georgia
Johnny Winter playing the instrumental Lead guitar for the studio recording of "The Green Manalishi"

any others?

[sharksfan2000]

Four hours of black magic woman jam at fillmore east in 1971...if such a jam really did take place. It's become sort of legendary but I think there are real doubts about it happening...or at least about it being anywhere near four hours long

the tapes of the munich commune jam.. allegedly in the hands of jane samuels in california
the tom dowd recordings of Peter Green and Duane Allman in Georgia
Johnny Winter playing the instrumental Lead guitar for the studio recording of "The Green Manalishi"

any others?
Could add the full "End of the Game" sessions to that list.

[iamnotafraid]

John knows and respects mine on the situation.

Thank you Jeremy for making
this one of the more interesting
threads on the Ledge.

[mzero]

...if such a jam really did take place. It's become sort of legendary but I think there are real doubts about it happening...or at least about it being anywhere near four hours long


Could add the full "End of the Game" sessions to that list.

if we had a like button, all of dh and sf2k's + any live recordings post fm 1970 - 1973

z

[slipkid]

...if such a jam really did take place. It's become sort of legendary but I think there are real doubts about it happening...or at least about it being anywhere near four hours long.

You have to understand that these "accounts" were kept secret by FM until it was not going to embarrass the band that went pop, and made millions of dollars.

The Danny Kirwan/Peter Green Fleetwood Mac is the true band. Mick Fleetwood made sure that era didn't cross the Nicks/Buckingham era.

From what I've read, the 1971 four hour Fillmore East "Black Magic Woman" jam, is true. Another reason Mick Fleetwood didn't want that bit of trivia released, because Peter Green didn't lose his mind a year before in Munich.

[THD]

I find it interesting that Jeremy believes that Peters personality changed over a period of time and Mick/John seem to believe that it was almost right away...

His personality changing is one thing but I believe his playing was spot on right thru End Of The Game.

Since none of us fans were there all we can do is guess.

As Jeremy titles his reply is truly is "A matter of perspective"

As you sayand Slipkid and I and others agree his playing was at it's finest
His personality obviously did change over time ,but Jeremy, in the Peter Green doc ,when it was originally screened on BBC4 ,clearly stated that when they had gone to the party in Munich to retrieve Peter and Danny, that in the car on the way back, he turned and saw both Peter and Danny with one side of their face drooping and he (Jeremy )knew something was seriously wrong . the implication being that this is a stroke like symptom Now perhaps they both recovered completley from this, as people do often recover from strokes or perhaps it had a profound effect . but this is Jeremy's account and he was there and so he must have felt something happened that night. Interestingly when I saw another verson of the Peter Green doc this account by Jeremy had been omitted !

[sharksfan2000]

You have to understand that these "accounts" were kept secret by FM until it was not going to embarrass the band that went pop, and made millions of dollars.

The Danny Kirwan/Peter Green Fleetwood Mac is the true band. Mick Fleetwood made sure that era didn't cross the Nicks/Buckingham era.

From what I've read, the 1971 four hour Fillmore East "Black Magic Woman" jam, is true. Another reason Mick Fleetwood didn't want that bit of trivia released, because Peter Green didn't lose his mind a year before in Munich.
Slipkid, I've read the accounts too. Still doesn't mean that they are true (conspiracy theory or not). The first account of it, as far as I can tell, appears in Bob Brunning's book - and all other accounts are clearly based on that one (including Martin Celmins' version). And the account in Brunning's book comes from Clifford Davis! So Brunning and Davis are now the authoritative sources for info on the band? And not as if Davis had any reason to build up another Peter Green myth...:rolleyes: There are elements of Davis' story as written in Brunning's book that are extremely hard to believe, and in my view they cast doubt on the whole account.

I've never read an account by anyone else who claims to have been at that show who has repeated the four-hour "Black Magic Woman" jam story - though if I've missed one someplace, I'd love to see it. But with only Clifford Davis' story to base it upon and without some independent account of this incident, I still have major doubts as to whether it really happened.

[THD]

I've never read an account by anyone else who claims to have been at that show who has repeated the four-hour "Black Magic Woman" jam story - though if I've missed one someplace, I'd love to see it..

But you have read an account of some one who was at the show ?
What surprises me in general about these things, is why the people who were at these shows don't ever post about them. Blue horizon and myself were not the only two people at the Lyceum concert in 1970- there must have been 500 people there, poss 1000 maybe many even more ! The Colour Me Pop prog broadcast on BBC 2 must have had half a million viewers- hopefully a lot more but I'm the only one that seems to have posted about seeing it -incredible !Some comfirmation from people out there would be helpful !
I'm not saying this is evidence that the four hour jam never happened -I'm saying if you're out there in internetland and were at itf or Gawd's sake post your recollections !!

[vivfox]

I'm saying if you're out there in internetland and were at itf or Gawd's sake post your recollections !!


Not that you really care or anything but the Rumours band lineup played an open air concert in New Zealand in 1980 where an infamous event occured. This show was also broadcast LIVE throughout the country that day yet no one from there has ever told us what happened from their point of view. So I know how you feel.

[sharksfan2000]

But you have read an account of some one who was at the show ?!
Only the Clifford Davis story as related to Bob Brunning and mentioned in his book. As far as I know, none of the band members (or anyone else) has ever mentioned the band performing a four-hour jam at this or any other show. Of course, that in itself does not say that it never happened, but all in all, I'm skeptical. I'd be more inclined to believe the band played for four+ hours than that they jammed continuously to one song for that full time.

On that subject, if you read Brunning's book carefully, the story he relates from Davis never explicitly states that the band jammed for four hours to "Black Magic Woman." He writes that Green started up that number and that they finished playing four hours later. Whether that implies that they jammed continuously for that time is up to interpretation, and I can certainly see where that can easily be read into what is written (and perhaps that ambiguity was intentional). But the book does not really make it clear and certainly never explicitly claims that. As far as I can tell, it's other people who later built upon and embellished this brief account who came up with the "four-hour Black Magic Woman jam at the climax show of the tour" legend.

[THD]

Not that you really care or anything but the Rumours band lineup played an open air concert in New Zealand in 1980 where an infamous event occured. This show was also broadcast LIVE throughout the country that day yet no one from there has ever told us what happened from their point of view. So I know how you feel.#

Why would I not care ? Do you mean I'm not interested in anything to do with the Rumours era band ?

[doodyhead]

I was not at that concert in 1971, but I can tell you that I was at 8 or 9 or i cant remember , during that time period, late shows at the fillmore east , in colleges throughout the northeast, where it was not unusual for the 11pm show to end in daylight.. While this is proof of nothing I have no reason do disbelieve of a jam going on till daylight because I saw the "Dead", the Airplane, and a few other bands do just that.


vinnie c

[sharksfan2000]

I was not at that concert in 1971, but I can tell you that I was at 8 or 9 or i cant remember , during that time period, late shows at the fillmore east , in colleges throughout the northeast, where it was not unusual for the 11pm show to end in daylight.. While this is proof of nothing I have no reason do disbelieve of a jam going on till daylight because I saw the "Dead", the Airplane, and a few other bands do just that.


vinnie c
Thanks, Vinnie - I have no doubt at all that some of these shows lasted late into the night or early morning, and it's quite possible that Fleetwood Mac may have played a very long show there...whether or not they played a single four-hour jam.

But you've also pointed out another reason to be skeptical of Clifford Davis' account of that show as written in Bob Brunning's book. Davis claimed that Bill Graham told him to get the band offstage just after midnight. Does that make any sense at all? After all, the Fillmore was Graham's own venue - why would he want the band off the stage if they wanted to continue and so did the audience? And according to Davis, he convinced Graham to let the show go on. If that scenario had indeed happened, can you imagine Davis - or any band manager for that matter - succeeding in telling Bill Graham what to do in his own venue? Sounds like a tall tale to me.

Again, that doesn't mean a four-hour jam didn't happen...but it casts a good deal of doubt upon the source of the story. I guess I will remain skeptical until I see another independent source on this event taking place.

[THD]

But you've also pointed out another reason to be skeptical of Clifford Davis' account of that show as written in Bob Brunning's book. Davis claimed that Bill Graham told him to get the band offstage just after midnight. Does that make any sense at all? After all, the Fillmore was Graham's own venue - why would he want the band off the stage if they wanted to continue and so did the audience? .

and didn't Bill Graham, being a shrewd operator with an eye to the future ,arrange for everything to be recorded whether the bands knew it or not- hence the Wolfgang's Vault archive ? Having said that, they seem to be adding new stuff all the time (or are they just recyling old material ?)

[mzero]

Thanks, Vinnie - I have no doubt at all that some of these shows lasted late into the night or early morning, and it's quite possible that Fleetwood Mac may have played a very long show there...whether or not they played a single four-hour jam.

But you've also pointed out another reason to be skeptical of Clifford Davis' account of that show as written in Bob Brunning's book. Davis claimed that Bill Graham told him to get the band offstage just after midnight. Does that make any sense at all? After all, the Fillmore was Graham's own venue - why would he want the band off the stage if they wanted to continue and so did the audience? And according to Davis, he convinced Graham to let the show go on. If that scenario had indeed happened, can you imagine Davis - or any band manager for that matter - succeeding in telling Bill Graham what to do in his own venue? Sounds like a tall tale to me.

Again, that doesn't mean a four-hour jam didn't happen...but it casts a good deal of doubt upon the source of the story. I guess I will remain skeptical until I see another independent source on this event taking place.

next time there is a q&a with christine, john, pete, danny, nigel w or mick somebody should ask about this!

z

[doodyhead]

I do not have the answer to this, but The Fillmore East more often than not had an early and late show 7 0r 8 Pm and 11, or midnight show. The Band of Gypsies Album on the inside cover show the clock on the wall inside the auditorium as Jimi Hendrix celebrated the New Year there (1970) That was his second show that night. It could be that Fleetwood Mac had to get off so the late show could start again. Bill was a stickler if it meant paying customers

vinnie c

[slipkid]

Slipkid, I've read the accounts too. Still doesn't mean that they are true (conspiracy theory or not). The first account of it, as far as I can tell, appears in Bob Brunning's book - and all other accounts are clearly based on that one (including Martin Celmins' version). And the account in Brunning's book comes from Clifford Davis! So Brunning and Davis are now the authoritative sources for info on the band? And not as if Davis had any reason to build up another Peter Green myth...:rolleyes: There are elements of Davis' story as written in Brunning's book that are extremely hard to believe, and in my view they cast doubt on the whole account.

I've never read an account by anyone else who claims to have been at that show who has repeated the four-hour "Black Magic Woman" jam story - though if I've missed one someplace, I'd love to see it. But with only Clifford Davis' story to base it upon and without some independent account of this incident, I still have major doubts as to whether it really happened.

There is a fan account of Peter Green jamming for three hours on one song with the Allman Brothers at the NO Warehouse 11/70. That's why I believe the BMW story. There are also liner notes from a 2 CD FM collection of outtakes that Danny Kirwan tried to brain Peter Green with a beer bottle out of pure frustation after the concert. I think that came from that BMW jam.

Bob Brunning knows Peter Green "changed" when he went to visit him around late 1971. He brought tapes of his Brunning Blues Band, that Peter had played with in 1969. Peter Green did not want to hear it! He just wanted to go to the local pub. The trigger happened AFTER Fleetwood Mac.

In Peter's case, he was never a true acid casualty. He was just depressed, because he felt the burdon of ripping off authentic American black blues musicians. Which is silly compared to Jimmy Page. What a waste.

[chriskisn]

I'm too lazy to read this whole thread (:sorry:) so apologies if someone has already referenced Micks book:

"Peter Green arrived two days after we appealed to him. Right away he let us know what he was willing to do. Our set now consisted of Black Magic Woman and about ninety minutes of free form jamming. We had no choice..."

[sharksfan2000]

I do not have the answer to this, but The Fillmore East more often than not had an early and late show 7 0r 8 Pm and 11, or midnight show. The Band of Gypsies Album on the inside cover show the clock on the wall inside the auditorium as Jimi Hendrix celebrated the New Year there (1970) That was his second show that night. It could be that Fleetwood Mac had to get off so the late show could start again. Bill was a stickler if it meant paying customers

vinnie c
Excellent point, Vinnie - I had not considered that they could have been finishing up an early show there. But if that was the case and Bill Graham had really wanted them to get offstage so he could get more paying customers in for a late show, I'm sure that he would have gotten them to leave the stage, one way or another! ;)

[sharksfan2000]

I'm too lazy to read this whole thread (:sorry:) so apologies if someone has already referenced Micks book:

"Peter Green arrived two days after we appealed to him. Right away he let us know what he was willing to do. Our set now consisted of Black Magic Woman and about ninety minutes of free form jamming. We had no choice..."

Yes, I've read that...and it repeats virtually word for word what is written in a late-'70s book about band ("Fleetwood Mac: Rumours n' Fax" by Roy Carr and Steve Clarke):

"Mac made do with a set thrown together - "Black Magic Woman," an hour's jamming and the occasional vocal from Danny and Christine."

No mention as to the source of that info, though a couple of quotes about that tour from John McVie follow this in the book. The set description pretty much matches with the few recordings from parts of several gigs that have survived from that tour. No mention of a single four-hour long jam though, either in this book or in Mick Fleetwood's.

[sharksfan2000]

There is a fan account of Peter Green jamming for three hours on one song with the Allman Brothers at the NO Warehouse 11/70. That's why I believe the BMW story.
I'd be far more inclined to believe that account than that of Fleetwood Mac jamming for four hours on one song. Jamming with the Allman Brothers, Peter Green would have been able to share the load of playing, not having to bear much or most of the lead work himself. Jamming was never a strength for Danny Kirwan, and listening to Fleetwood Mac's jams on "Rattlesnake Shake" or "Coming Your Way", he could tend to get into a rut with his playing (as could Peter on occasion). As you well know, the Allman Brothers, along with a handful of other bands, were known for very long jams - Fleetwood Mac never were known for jams of great length. The longest surviving jams we have from the band were about 1/2 hour - perhaps the snippets we have from the early '71 tour jams come from significantly longer sessions, but we don't really know. Could they have managed a single four-hour jam? Sure, it's possible but I still have my doubts.

I guess I'm just a "non-believer" about this story, based on it coming from a single account from what I feel is a questionable source, so unless another source can be found for this event taking place, I'll just leave it at that.

[slipkid]

I'd be far more inclined to believe that account than that of Fleetwood Mac jamming for four hours on one song. Jamming with the Allman Brothers, Peter Green would have been able to share the load of playing, not having to bear much or most of the lead work himself. Jamming was never a strength for Danny Kirwan, and listening to Fleetwood Mac's jams on "Rattlesnake Shake" or "Coming Your Way", he could tend to get into a rut with his playing (as could Peter on occasion). As you well know, the Allman Brothers, along with a handful of other bands, were known for very long jams - Fleetwood Mac never were known for jams of great length. The longest surviving jams we have from the band were about 1/2 hour - perhaps the snippets we have from the early '71 tour jams come from significantly longer sessions, but we don't really know. Could they have managed a single four-hour jam? Sure, it's possible but I still have my doubts.

I guess I'm just a "non-believer" about this story, based on it coming from a single account from what I feel is a questionable source, so unless another source can be found for this event taking place, I'll just leave it at that.


It was a much different (and much better musically) time then. 1) Peter Green was in complete free-form wah-pedal jam mode. 2) There was no time limit for concerts at the Fillmore East. When the Allmans' played the last concert at the Fillmore East, they ended at dawn. 3) Not every FM concert post Spencer with Green as a sub had a BMW jam.

According to what's been written, Peter Green stayed in the shadows playing rhythm guitar for FM to fill in for Jeremy Spencer for a couple of weeks. Danny Kirwan took all the solos, and that was it. Then came the Fillmore East show. Green steps to the front, makes himself known, and thus the infamous BMW jam. This is not impossible to believe if you are a fan of those bands from the "hippie ballroom circuit". If you're not, you need to wrap your head around a time that really happened! Back then McVie, and Fleetwood were stallions (a rhythm force)! Maybe it was two, three, or four hours. Whatever the case, it was a VERY long jam. Which is why I think Danny Kirwan tried to hit Peter Green in the head with a glass beer bottle after the show, out of pure frustration! That account is not from Clifford Davis.

[chriskisn]

Probably not a popular view, but listening to a two hour jam would probably feel like four. It didn't matter if PG is the best guitarist in the world or not, there is only so much of that kind of thing you can take.

Every time I listen to End of the Game, I think about all the other things I could be doing like visiting the dentist or pulling out my fingernails with pliers.

:laugh:

[Wouter Vuijk]

Probably not a popular view, but I could visit the dentist or pull out my fingernails with pliers.

:laugh:
I don't like these either
:thumbsup:

[jeremy spencer]

Probably not a popular view, but listening to a two hour jam would probably feel like four. It didn't matter if PG is the best guitarist in the world or not, there is only so much of that kind of thing you can take.

Every time I listen to End of the Game, I think about all the other things I could be doing like visiting the dentist or pulling out my fingernails with pliers.

:laugh:

...better get ready to flee the kitchen ... some people may want to throw you in the 'fiery furnace' for saying this!

[sharksfan2000]

Which is why I think Danny Kirwan tried to hit Peter Green in the head with a glass beer bottle after the show, out of pure frustration! That account is not from Clifford Davis.Yes, the beer bottle story originally came from Nigel Watson, and we have only his opinion as to why Danny did it...whether or not that came from anything Danny said at the time, we have no way of knowing. But I imagine that the whole band must have been frustrated at not being able to perform more of their current numbers and perhaps at having to take a back seat to a former band member for much of those shows, even if it was the band's founder. Both stories are said to have happened during the band's gigs at the Fillmore East (they played more than one night there), so they could have happened on the same night or on different nights. But single four-hour jam or not, Danny's frustration might well be understandable. Who knows, the rest of the band might have felt like hitting him with a bottle too! ;)

Here's a thought for some discussion. Based on how things played out, the assumption has always been that the band would have canceled the rest of their tour if Peter (and Nigel) had not flown in to join them. But could they realistically have continued the tour as a four-piece? Obviously Danny was not comfortable being a front man but Christine might have been able to handle fronting the band at that point, for the remaining few weeks of the tour anyway. So could they have functioned that way or would it have turned out like Spinal Tap without Nigel Tufnel? :D

[dino]

and didn't Bill Graham, being a shrewd operator with an eye to the future ,arrange for everything to be recorded whether the bands knew it or not- hence the Wolfgang's Vault archive ? Having said that, they seem to be adding new stuff all the time (or are they just recyling old material ?)

Some of the WV stuff is maybe from Graham's archives. But they also download collector's uploads from torrent sites, and claim the recordings as their own.
They bought some Mac tapes from Dinky Dawson though.

[dino]

Here's a thought for some discussion. Based on how things played out, the assumption has always been that the band would have canceled the rest of their tour if Peter (and Nigel) had not flown in to join them. But could they realistically have continued the tour as a four-piece? Obviously Danny was not comfortable being a front man but Christine might have been able to handle fronting the band at that point, for the remaining few weeks of the tour anyway. So could they have functioned that way or would it have turned out like Spinal Tap without Nigel Tufnel? :D

Hm, good question. Perhaps there were contractual issues with the promoter - maybe the tour would have been cancelled without Peter's intervention.

[doodyhead]

...better get ready to flee the kitchen ... some people may want to throw you in the 'fiery furnace' for saying this!

i sat through quite a few of those jams and some of them did get tedious at best

some were marvelous when on lsd
but listened to years later, spotty and so so

[doodyhead]

still in all, it was a creative time, and those who jammed were trying to find some hidden magic in the collective collaborative experience. as a young player I was also seduced by this environment. i do not know if it made any better of a musician, but i somehow thought i listened better and reacted better playing. who knows? i hoped that the creative force would channel through me through my guitar. jamming was the vehicle to induce the spirit.
coltrane wrote of this. i believe it is true. is it from god? I don't know, I only feel

[slipkid]

Probably not a popular view, but listening to a two hour jam would probably feel like four. It didn't matter if PG is the best guitarist in the world or not, there is only so much of that kind of thing you can take.

Every time I listen to End of the Game, I think about all the other things I could be doing like visiting the dentist or pulling out my fingernails with pliers.

:laugh:

"I'm So Afraid" live outdoor, 1976? Really? JS warned you!

Since you don't like "End of the Game", do you own Miles Davis' "Bitches Brew"? That could explain it.


Maybe I get "End of the Game" because I was a 1970's British prog rock fan twenty-five years ago when the majority of American high school morons followed REM, and U2.

[chriskisn]

"I'm So Afraid" live outdoor, 1976? Really? JS warned you!

Since you don't like "End of the Game", do you own Miles Davis' "Bitches Brew"? That could explain it.


Maybe I get "End of the Game" because I was a 1970's British prog rock fan twenty-five years ago when the majority of American high school morons followed REM, and U2.

No I don't own anything by Miles Davis :lol: Though from what I've heard of Bitches Brew that is probably a good thing...

Although perhaps my problem with jamming is that I don't like songs without words. I skip pretty much any instrumental on my ipod. Naturally I skip all those jam tracks from Live in Boston albums too as well as pretty much anything longer than ten minutes (FM, Mayall, Clapton, Cream, etc just love those long tracks).

As for PG, I have said this before, I still prefer his Splinter Group stuff over his FM and early solo career. :shrug:

Actually, come to think of it, of the 16 Fleetwood Mac members, I'd prefer the solo works of 14 of them.

[aleuzzi]

No I don't own anything by Miles Davis :lol: Though from what I've heard of Bitches Brew that is probably a good thing...


Scandalous! About 20 Miles Davis recordings are essential. And Bitches Brew is one of them.

[doodyhead]

No I don't own anything by Miles Davis :lol: Though from what I've heard of Bitches Brew that is probably a good thing...

Although perhaps my problem with jamming is that I don't like songs without words. I skip pretty much any instrumental on my ipod. Naturally I skip all those jam tracks from Live in Boston albums too as well as pretty much anything longer than ten minutes (FM, Mayall, Clapton, Cream, etc just love those long tracks).

As for PG, I have said this before, I still prefer his Splinter Group stuff over his FM and early solo career. :shrug:

Actually, come to think of it, of the 16 Fleetwood Mac members, I'd prefer the solo works of 14 of them.

in the words of some old geezer who most likely has never read anything from The Ledge:
"Oh Well"

[slipkid]

No I don't own anything by Miles Davis :lol: Though from what I've heard of Bitches Brew that is probably a good thing...

Although perhaps my problem with jamming is that I don't like songs without words. I skip pretty much any instrumental on my ipod. Naturally I skip all those jam tracks from Live in Boston albums too as well as pretty much anything longer than ten minutes (FM, Mayall, Clapton, Cream, etc just love those long tracks).

As for PG, I have said this before, I still prefer his Splinter Group stuff over his FM and early solo career. :shrug:

Actually, come to think of it, of the 16 Fleetwood Mac members, I'd prefer the solo works of 14 of them.

By your account you would hate "Bitches Brew" because it contains no words, as does much of Miles Davis' music.

chriskisn has provided the divide between fans of the original FM lineup, and the band that went to California.

"Rattlesnake Shake" from "Live in Boston Volume 2", is essential listening for anyone who loves bands that interact, and play together very well, words are just fluff. Of course how could you ignore a band that went to Hugh Hefner's "Playboy After Dark" in early 1970, to play a song about male masterbation!?!? What happened to that band? They went pop!

If I'm listening to Pete Townshend, Lou Reed, David Bowie, Bob Dylan, or The Beatles, words matter. Does "Rumours" stack up to Dylan's "Blood on the Tracks" in hidden meanings?

[chriskisn]

By your account you would hate "Bitches Brew" because it contains no words, as does much of Miles Davis' music.

chriskisn has provided the divide between fans of the original FM lineup, and the band that went to California.

"Rattlesnake Shake" from "Live in Boston Volume 2", is essential listening for anyone who loves bands that interact, and play together very well, words are just fluff. Of course how could you ignore a band that went to Hugh Hefner's "Playboy After Dark" in early 1970, to play a song about male masterbation!?!? What happened to that band? They went pop!

If I'm listening to Pete Townshend, Lou Reed, David Bowie, Bob Dylan, or The Beatles, words matter. Does "Rumours" stack up to Dylan's "Blood on the Tracks" in hidden meanings?

Actually I'm between the divide of the original FM fans and the cali-sugar-pop. I'm a Welch, Weston, Walker era fan or a Vito, Burnette, Bramlett fan. I liked Rumours era FM, but I didn't become passionate about the band until I heard the three best albums the band has released (MTM, Penguin, HAHTF).

I guess though that words do matter to me, probably because I am not primarily a FM fan, but primarily a Dylan fan. Without words Dylan would just be some guy strumming somewhat badly on a guitar.