Shiner or not?

[ragrsrocalot]

I was just watching this interview again, someone had posted it a while back on one of the threads. I didn't notice it then, but viewing it just now, it appears to me that Stevie has a shiner on the left side of her face. Yes, she has a pinkish color blush on,she will turn her head at one point, and the right side looks fine, but to me the left side of her cheek looks really bruised, big time. :(

You see it in the begining when she sits down, but more noticably @ 6:04.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/pkU-sj90ewI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[PenguinHead]

WOW! I've never seen that interview before. A fascinating glimpse of the Rumours-era band before Rumours! They are so young! I wonder why Christine wasn't there. Is there more footage of this interview? Where was it aired? I wish the performance clips weren't edited out.

What is being implied, regarding your claim of a bruise on Stevie's face?

[PenguinHead]

WOW! I've never seen that interview before. A fascinating glimpse of the Rumours-era band before Rumours! They are so young! I wonder why Christine wasn't there. Is there more footage of this interview? Where was it aired? I wish the performance clips weren't edited out.

What is being implied, regarding your claim of a"shiner" on Stevie's face? It looks the same on both sides -- just a matter of complextion and lighting.

[Macfanforever]

Wow .I haven't seen this interview before.I like to see the whole show.

[Regina]

Interesting. I love Wolfman Lindsey. His eyes are soooo blue. Stevie has always been pretty but, I've always felt she absolutely got more beautiful with age. (I'm seeing what you think is the shiner, but I think it's lighting or makeup. Blush can be a tricky thing).

They are a dour bunch, aren't they? And Lindsey didn't learn about cycles and stuff yet (yay!) and had a real hard time with me-us-we, which I found kind of cute. Mick was a natural born one. And Stevie didn't find her sense of humor yet. Did John get to talk? (I sort of skipped his and Mick's parts).

Interesting that the Stevie-Lindsey love affair was not the selling point of the band yet.

[Macfanforever]

WOW! I've never seen that interview before. A fascinating glimpse of the Rumours-era band before Rumours! They are so young! I wonder why Christine wasn't there. Is there more footage of this interview? I wish the performance clips weren't edited out.

What is being implied, regarding your claim of a"shiner" on Stevie's face? It looks the same on both sides -- just a matter of complextion and lighting.

I agree. The poster probably had no choice to edit,do the the 10 minute limit crap on youtube plus the music copyright rules.

[ragrsrocalot]

WOW! I've never seen that interview before. A fascinating glimpse of the Rumours-era band before Rumours! They are so young! I wonder why Christine wasn't there. Is there more footage of this interview? I wish the performance clips weren't edited out.

What is being implied, regarding your claim of a"shiner" on Stevie's face? It looks the same on both sides -- just a matter of complextion and lighting.

I'm not implying anything. I made an observation based on viewing the video, and was wondering if anyone noticed the same thing, thats all. I have seen people with shiners around their eyes, but this to me was brusing, black and blue around her left check. Lighting crossed my mind for a brief moment, but these screen shots make me think otherwise.

<a href="http://s977.photobucket.com/albums/ae256/ragesrocalot/?action=view&amp;current=left5.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/ae256/ragesrocalot/left5.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/ae256/ragesrocalot/lside4-1.jpg

http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/ae256/ragesrocalot/lside.jpg

The right cheek is fine
http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/430/rside.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/831/rside.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

[henryscutter]

I'm not implying anything. I made an observation based on viewing the video, and was wondering if anyone noticed the same thing, thats all. I have seen people with shiners around their eyes, but this to me was brusing, black and blue around her left check. Lighting crossed my mind for a brief moment, but these screen shots make me think otherwise.

<a href="http://s977.photobucket.com/albums/ae256/ragesrocalot/?action=view&amp;current=left5.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/ae256/ragesrocalot/left5.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/ae256/ragesrocalot/lside4-1.jpg

http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/ae256/ragesrocalot/lside.jpg

The right cheek is fine
http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/430/rside.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/831/rside.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Yeah I think your right it looks like a bruise being covered up with blush.

[Sanne2]

I'm not implying anything. I made an observation based on viewing the video, and was wondering if anyone noticed the same thing, thats all. I have seen people with shiners around their eyes, but this to me was brusing, black and blue around her left check. Lighting crossed my mind for a brief moment, but these screen shots make me think otherwise.

<a href="http://s977.photobucket.com/albums/ae256/ragesrocalot/?action=view&amp;current=left5.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/ae256/ragesrocalot/left5.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/ae256/ragesrocalot/lside4-1.jpg

http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/ae256/ragesrocalot/lside.jpg

The right cheek is fine
http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/430/rside.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/831/rside.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

That doesn't look like a bruise at all to me, just lightning/shade affect. In the first still it looks like the shadow from her nose and in the last one it's shadow from her hair.

[dnightshade]

There's no "shiner." Make-up over a blemish, shadows and lighting.

[jellyman10]

Did John get to talk? (I sort of skipped his and Mick's parts).


In the whole interview, I seem to remember John does speak once - to confirm something Mick says.

[fringed n fab]

That doesn't look like a bruise at all to me, just lightning/shade affect. In the first still it looks like the shadow from her nose and in the last one it's shadow from her hair.

I believe it's just blush too, maybe covering up a blemish if anything. Or could just be lighting or shadow effect too. I have never liked rosy red cheeks, I think it looks clownish and for that I have never personally liked blush and will never wear it, but somehow Stevie makes it blend beautifully in her younger makeup videos and looking so pretty.

[fringed n fab]

Lindsey was such a doll in the early 70's pre-Tusk with his long hair and scruff. :nod:

[Macfanforever]

I'm not implying anything. I made an observation based on viewing the video, and was wondering if anyone noticed the same thing, thats all. I have seen people with shiners around their eyes, but this to me was brusing, black and blue around her left check. Lighting crossed my mind for a brief moment, but these screen shots make me think otherwise.

<a href="http://s977.photobucket.com/albums/ae256/ragesrocalot/?action=view&amp;current=left5.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/ae256/ragesrocalot/left5.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/ae256/ragesrocalot/lside4-1.jpg

http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/ae256/ragesrocalot/lside.jpg

The right cheek is fine
http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/430/rside.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/831/rside.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Yea .I did notice something there.She looks tired there. again with no sleep.She alittle green in her hair on her left side.

[bombaysaffires]

Wow, Stevie clearly wasn't yet the star of the band she would become!

At first I thought the marks you are referring to were shadows from her hair maybe, but even when she moves her head around they don't change, which shadows would.

If people are tiptoeing around wondering if she had a mark from a smack from Lindsey..... it's hard to say. It wouldn't seem out of the realm of possibility for the time.....but the quality of the video makes it hard to really tell what it is.

[jellyman10]

There are other photos and footage of Stevie from this period and during the Rumours tour and up to Bella Donna really, where she's very thin, and you can see that her bone structure lends itself to a sort of sunken cheekbone look that might be what's happening here.

As coincidence would have it, this pic was posted by someone on Tumblr today, and I think it shows what I mean.

[ali101]

Nice interview - thanks. I dont recall seeing that on so it was enjoyable.

I think you are quite a hawkeye and definitley right about the bruise. In a great love, tempers flare since every wrong or damning word or action is one that cuts like a knife and the pain massive. Theres was a tempestuous relationship and Stevie herself is no angel freely admitting to getting him by the throat in the events that preceeded the Tango tour, with her getting slapped etc. That certainly wouldnt be a first.

Anyway they are all a bit sheepish in the interview and Stevie looks less than happy to be there at that time. They seem uncomfortable to me.

Thanks again for the vid!!

[CADreaming]

Nice interview - thanks. I dont recall seeing that on so it was enjoyable.

I think you are quite a hawkeye and definitley right about the bruise. In a great love, tempers flare since every wrong or damning word or action is one that cuts like a knife and the pain massive. Theres was a tempestuous relationship and Stevie herself is no angel freely admitting to getting him by the throat in the events that preceeded the Tango tour, with her getting slapped etc. That certainly wouldnt be a first.

Anyway they are all a bit sheepish in the interview and Stevie looks less than happy to be there at that time. They seem uncomfortable to me.

Thanks again for the vid!!

I noticed something seemed off when she showed up -- Lindsey leans into her pretty far, invading her space. He probably was silently questioning her whereabouts. And, later when he's talking about Fritz and asks her the year she is very hesitant. Lots of strange non verbal communication going on, imo.

[ali101]

I noticed something seemed off when she showed up -- Lindsey leans into her pretty far, invading her space. He probably was silently questioning her whereabouts. And, later when he's talking about Fritz and asks her the year she is very hesitant. Lots of strange non verbal communication going on, imo.

Yes I agree they are very tense and it is John that pulls out the chair and looks like he maybe went to get Stevie for the interview? Does he drop some keys in front of her? She is definitely not happy at all.

We've all been there.

[jellyman10]

Strangely, although I do belong in the camp of people who think LB & SN's relationship was occasionally abusive, I still don't see a clear bruise on her face here, and I think their demeanour can also be explained by being tired or in a generally strained relationship or just because it was still in that period when, as Mick and others have said, Stevie didn't speak up for herself all that much. I mean, if Stevie showing up last, like John went to get her, indicates that she was sulking or covering up a shiner with make-up, what on earth are we to make of Christine not showing up at all? :lol:

[CADreaming]

Strangely, although I do belong in the camp of people who think LB & SN's relationship was occasionally abusive, I still don't see a clear bruise on her face here, and I think their demeanour can also be explained by being tired or in a generally strained relationship or just because it was still in that period when, as Mick and others have said, Stevie didn't speak up for herself all that much. I mean, if Stevie showing up last, like John went to get her, indicates that she was sulking or covering up a shiner with make-up, what on earth are we to make of Christine not showing up at all? :lol:

:lol: Cat fight!

[AWomanWithAPast]

Ugh, I don't want to think about this one too much. If Lindsey put a bruise like that on her face, it would break my heart, no matter what she did or what happened before or since. So here's to hoping/believing that it's makeup, or lighting, or nothing, or absolutely anything other than someone hurting her.

[cliffdweller]

Wow, Stevie clearly wasn't yet the star of the band she would become!

Yeah, I think she was still hiding behind the others in the band at this point, still playing the role of the careful, baby sister. Just a short time later she would really spread her wings and come out front and center stage. It's interesting to watch this before she REALLY exploded as the front-woman star.

[Macfanforever]

This video was done way before the "Silver Springs" fight. Am I right.

[David]

If Lindsey put a bruise like that on her face, it would break my heart, no matter what she did or what happened before or since.
He chased her down the street ... & then she chased him up the block & around the corner ... & then they bent each other over the hood of one of Mick's classic automobiles & screamed & slapped till they were both out of breath.

Finally, John said, "Why don't you just leave." But he meant leave the room.

[michelej1]

what on earth are we to make of Christine not showing up at all? :lol:

Yes, I'm not quite ready to assume that she was too tired to appear based on John chasing her all night with a knife.

CADreaming, catfight is promising guess, but I'd think Chris would win and, thus, Stevie would be the no show.

Michele

[cliffdweller]

Yes, I'm not quite ready to assume that she was too tired to appear based on John chasing her all night with a knife.

Just in time for Halloween: a Fleetwood Mac slasher flick! :laugh:

[ali101]

Wasn't christine having an affair then? Perhaps the interview wasnt really a priority!

[ali101]

Yes I was right - I think she didnt show becuase she was checking out the lighting rig with Curry Grant.

Here's the potted Mcvie history from the penguin:


"Thus began her career with Fleetwood Mac. Aside from making major contributions to all albums from 1971 on, Christine was
Fleetwood Mac, 1973
also an important part of the group's stage personality, and was a source of strength and stoicism throughout the many trials and pitfalls that befell the band. However, seeing her husband for nearly 24 hours a day for years began to be a real problem for them, and the drinking on the road didn't help matters: "John is not the most pleasant of people when he's drunk. Very belligerent. I was seeing more Hyde than Jekyll." She says that she and John were very happy for about three years, until the stress of their constant togetherness began to show: "We just saw so much of each other at work, at play and at home that it became very wearing on the relationship." Mick Fleetwood has stated that years after joining the band, when the marriage was under so much strain, Chris wondered if she had really made the right decision, although he doesn't feel that she would go back and do anything differently. According to a book written by Bob Brunning, around 1973, Chris had a 'barely concealed' affair with the group's producer, Martin Birch. For awhile she was pondering leaving the band to make a solo album with him, but this idea was squashed when Birch went back to his wife and the McVies decided to decided to give their rocky marriage another go.

In 1974, with guitarist and vocalist Bob Welch's encouragement, Fleetwood Mac decided to move to America. Christine was not too happy with this idea, as she loved the band's home, Benifold, and was very close to her family. (Her mother, Tee, had died in 1970, and her father had since re-married and fathered another son, Cyril.) She knew it was probably best for the Fleetwood Mac, however, so she agreed to a six month trial period. The McVies stayed at John Mayall's house in California for awhile before getting their own three room apartment in Malibu. (Interesting aside: While living with Mayall, John McVie joined a group of a different nature, called 'The Brain Damage Club'. According to Christine McVie, "In order to join, you had to dive off the third floor naked into the pool. I'm still amazed he didn't kill himself. Needless to say, I didn't join the club.") The McVies were still living in their small apartment when Lindsey Buckingham and Stevie Nicks joined the group in 1975. (Mick made sure Chris felt she could get along with Stevie before hiring them; nobody wanted a situation where two women were bickering back and forth...)

Things between John and Chris had gotten progressively worse, and by 1976 she'd had enough. While the band was on the road, the two began staying in separate rooms, and Chris began a relationship with the group's lighting director, Curry Grant. Mick Fleetwood writes: "I know that Chris felt very bad about it, because she hadn't
Lindsey Buckingham, Russ Titleman, & Christine McVie; Montreux, Switzerland, 1983
really stopped loving McVie. As a parting gift she had a huge golden ring, emblazoned with a noble penguin, made for him to show John that she still felt for him." Once the tour was over, Chris moved out of their house in Topanga and got a house of her own, where she lived with Curry; John went to live on a boat in Marina Del Ray. In 1977, she told Rolling Stone, "I still have a lot of love for John. As far as I'm concerned, it was him that stopped me loving him. He just constantly tested what limits of endurance I would go to...if he knew how much I still worry and care for him, I think he'd play on it." She says she was genuinely happy and "didn't feel weird" when John remarried, soon after their divorce was finalized, (although she did find it "a little strange" when he and his new wife bought her old house from her, and held their wedding there...)
"

[henryscutter]

There is a lot of weird body language in this clip between Stevie & Lindsey. I wish the camera was on them for the whole interview. He stares at her a lot and leans in close when she sits down. She slides her chair away from him and doesnt want anything to do with him. She wont even look at him until he ask her a direct question and then just nods like she doesnt want to say two words to him. What does it all mean? The mystery of the Mac :lol:

[Bm7th]

I think if it was a bruise she would have a black & blue mark directly under her eye.

[Nickingham]

She could have accidentally bumped herself badly there, or got hit by accident.It happens.Or maybe her and Lindsey had a spat.Who knows.Was this around the time when both of them weren't getting along?It could just be her makeup or blush.

[Regina]

Remember that footage from the (Japanese?) Rumour tour, I think? Must be (Rumours) because Lindsey did not have the Tusk hair yet (editorial comment: yuck on the Tusk hair).

Anyway, Stevie was applying makeup for about 93 minutes of the thing.

My point is, if she had a shiner and wanted to cover it up, that puppy would be covered up.

And, I guess I'm in the camp that doesn't believe Stevie and Lindsey were in an abusive relationship. I think they had that violent confrontation when Lindsey announced his FM departure, but I just don't think this is something Stevie would ever have covered up, considering the fact that she has had plenty to say about him in the past. And, she actually went on record to explain the whole incident with the choking and car and all that to make herself "equally" to blame for the whole, ugly thing. And she pretty much hated the guy, at the time so she had nothing to lose and could have absolutely buried him at the time, which I'm told brings satisfaction to love-hate relationships...so...whatever.

If it is a shiner, she probably just left her glasses at home and banged into another garage door.

[beccamorrisfift]

Remember that footage from the (Japanese?) Rumour tour, I think? Must be (Rumours) because Lindsey did not have the Tusk hair yet (editorial comment: yuck on the Tusk hair).

Anyway, Stevie was applying makeup for about 93 minutes of the thing.

My point is, if she had a shiner and wanted to cover it up, that puppy would be covered up.

And, I guess I'm in the camp that doesn't believe Stevie and Lindsey were in an abusive relationship. I think they had that violent confrontation when Lindsey announced his FM departure, but I just don't think this is something Stevie would ever have covered up, considering the fact that she has had plenty to say about him in the past. And, she actually went on record to explain the whole incident with the choking and car and all that to make herself "equally" to blame for the whole, ugly thing. And she pretty much hated the guy, at the time so she had nothing to lose and could have absolutely buried him at the time, which I'm told brings satisfaction to love-hate relationships...so...whatever.

If it is a shiner, she probably just left her glasses at home and banged into another garage door.

GASP ! I love Tusk Lindsey! LOL.

I also think that their relationship wasn't generally abusive, but who really knows except them.

[jellyman10]

And, I guess I'm in the camp that doesn't believe Stevie and Lindsey were in an abusive relationship. I think they had that violent confrontation when Lindsey announced his FM departure, but I just don't think this is something Stevie would ever have covered up, considering the fact that she has had plenty to say about him in the past. And, she actually went on record to explain the whole incident with the choking and car and all that to make herself "equally" to blame for the whole, ugly thing. And she pretty much hated the guy, at the time so she had nothing to lose and could have absolutely buried him at the time, which I'm told brings satisfaction to love-hate relationships...so...whatever.

If it is a shiner, she probably just left her glasses at home and banged into another garage door.

I'm sorry, Regina, but I can't let that go. Many, many books have been written about the reasons why women don't reveal when their partners hit them. Stevie not saying outright that LB ever hit her means nothing. Nothing. And even if there weren't thousands and thousands of women being hit every day who don't ever tell, I will always believe that Lindsey was violent to Carol Ann Harris, and that when Stevie says things like 'Maybe if we hadn't had the outlet of writing songs, we would've just totally freaked out and killed each other' she is exaggerating, yes, but that there is within that statement a grain of truth about their relationship, i.e. that it was 'tumultuous', 'tempestuous', 'volatile', 'rocky', contained 'darkness' [insert further euphemisms]. There's also the part in CAH's book where she says that Stevie gave her advice on how to handle LB when he's in one of his moods, etc. And the part in Mick's book, about the fight over the car when LB left the band in 87, where Mick says 'Was he going to hit her? He'd done it before.' People say that be read to mean that LB had hit SN earlier in the same episode, but I think that's rather a stretch. I will always read that as Mick meaning LB had hit Stevie earlier in their relationship, perhaps in self-defence, perhaps under extreme provocation, perhaps only ever once. But still, yes, that he'd hit her.

I can well understand not wanting to believe such a thing about LB. But surely the point is that, if it is true, he did the work on himself that it took to overcome his anger problem and is now in a good emotional state? I respect that.

I just think, bottom line, that the argument that LB can't have ever hit Stevie because, if he had, she would have definitely said so doesn't stand up at all. It's not proof of anything. I mean, even if their relationship wasn't as ridiculously convoluted as it is, the fact is a man who hits a woman is a deeply unattractive proposition, even at the rock n roll box office. So why on earth would she taint/bury the FM brand that way?

I realise this is controversial, and boring to some people, and inappropriate to others, and upsetting etc., and I'm PROLONGING IT, but it's a serious subject and I just can't really bear to see the idea go by unchallenged that just because something isn't spoken about means it can't have happened.

[Regina]

Well, I DO agree with you, actually. On a general level. I just don't believe it with Stevie. And, that could very well be simply because I don't want to.

I read Storms and felt a good part of it was absolute crap (but not necessarily TOTALLY untrue crap)--and I do believe Lindsey was out of his mind at that point in time. I mean, should-have-been-institutionalized out of his mind. But, more than anything else, I felt that FM (every single member) were absolute jerks for seeing Lindsey do this/hearing about it, and doing NOTHING. Not a blessed thing. Now, was this a combination of his epilepsy/medications for epilepsy and combinations of recreational drugs or just his general persona? That could be a question for the ages, but it's besides the point. I do believe he was violent with CAH.

I guess I've really ... geez, how do I explain this? On the one hand, I believe Stevie can embellish the truth a bit. I believe she changes her mind/opinions on things a lot. But I kind of believe the essential truth of the moment comes out in what she says. And, I just kind of think--if she had been abused, even if she sort of "blind item"-ed it (and she had enough lovers so there COULD be a doubt about which one she was referring to) she would have said something. I just thought that the time that CAH originally came out with these accusations (the 80s, I believe?) was a time that Stevie and FM couldn't stand Lindsey. They threw him under the bus, as a musician, even. So, I can't imagine that they wouldn't do it as a person, when they could have garnered a certain sympathy and wracked up more fans for their new line-up since the nasty dude was out.

I don't know. Maybe I'm too idealistic about FM and their motives and personalities. Maybe the idea of domestic violence involving people I admire is too much for me to handle. In the "real world" I have no doubt that women hide these types of things for their entire lives. From everyone. So, I guess it's kind of ridiculous to think that Stevie wouldn't, if she felt she had any kind of motive for keeping that secret.

Anyway, I wasn't trying to make light of the situation, is what I'm clumsily trying to say.

[michelej1]

Well, I DO agree with you, actually. On a general level. I just don't believe it with Stevie.

I would agree. There are many reasons to deny or remain silent about domestic abuse: fear, shame, dependency, misplaced loyalty. You can't say what a "typical" person would or would not admit or reveal. However, when you talk about one individual person, I think you can make conclusions about what they might say based on their history and other candid statements they have made.

Stevie said of the Tango fight that Lindsey tried to kill her, that she thought he would kill her and told him her brother and father would get him if he did. From those rather dramatic statements, I don't think she was sugarcoating anything he did or holding back on her description of events, especially when she made those comments, especially when (as you pointed out) they were made at a time when she had left the band and was resentful of FM in general, prompting even John to complain about what a liar she was.

If you're going to say that someone was about to kill you with their bare hands, then I don't think you'd keep the fact that they also slapped or hit you to yourself. As long as you're admitting that their intentions were murderous.

At other times she also apparently said (although the way Mojo wrote it, you can't tell whether it was Stevie or Lindsey speaking, but I assume it was her) with Lindsey sitting right there that he threw a guitar at her. She's also said that he did something to her on stage, although she couldn't rememeber what he did, kicked her or something, she imagined. Then, in more recent years, her memory suddenly became sharper and she said that he threw a guitar at her on stage and she ducked.

She's also discussed that John was angrily chasing Christine around when they were recording Rumours and she had to hide Christine in her room, for protection.

Because she has a record of putting stuff like that out there in the press already, I don't think it's unreasonable to say that in her case, if she and Lindsey had a physically violent relationship during the BN years that she would say so, based on other things she's said. For other women and victims of either sex in general, for Christine even, I would not say that their silence means it didn't happen. Silence means nothing across the board. But based on other incidents of Stevie's non-silence, I don't think it's minimizing the plight of abuse victims to conclude she'd say more if there was more to say.

Michele

[henryscutter]

I know she has mentioned having to walk on eggshells around Lindsey and quieting down her personality for him. In RollingStone she said he was somewhat possesive and controlling. IMO she wants people to know he was a difficult jerk, but I think she also cares about him and wants to protect his reputation.

[jellyman10]

I know she has mentioned having to walk on eggshells around Lindsey and quieting down her personality for him. In RollingStone she said he was somewhat possesive and controlling. IMO she wants people to know he was a difficult jerk, but I think she also cares about him and wants to protect his reputation.

Thank you. You've kind of said what I was going to say.

I think where I really disagree with Regina and Michele is still on the idea that just because Stevie hasn't said exactly that LB hit her, in a way that exactly leaves no doubt, doesn't mean he didn't subject her to behaviours that any normal person would consider 'abusive' in 2011, including striking her on occasion. I have no trouble believing that she was violent towards him on occasion, too.

I also will never agree that Stevie has ever 'hated' LB. I think he has come much, much closer to hating her than she ever came to hating him, and that she and Mick are of one mind when it comes to keeping the FM heart beating. Again, I really think the main thing is that they came through it, and they're happy and creative people today.

[michelej1]

I also will never agree that Stevie has ever 'hated' LB. I think he has come much, much closer to hating her than she ever came to hating him, and that she and Mick are of one mind when it comes to keeping the FM heart beating. Again, I really think the main thing is that they came through it, and they're happy and creative people today.

Oh, I don't think they ever hated each other, any more than you might hate a sibling. I mean, you do hate them, but the love is never absent. There is never a time when you're apathetic about them or wouldn't tremble if bad news arrived about their well-being.

But the band members definitely had a lot of anger after Tango and they pulled no punches in trashing each other. Not only Stevie and Lindsey and Mick and Lindsey, but even though they never parted, John was even upset about some of the things Mick said about him.

Michele

[tabruns]

I don't doubt that Lindsey and Stevie have at times truly hated each other. As the saying goes, "There's a thin line between love and hate" and people that you love have great power to hurt you.

I think one thing that's potentially missing in this dialogue is the time/culture context. Relationship abuse is something that we're more aware of and less accepting of than we were some 30+ years ago. Stevie and Lindsey were in a relationship in the late 60s/early 70s....its quite *possible* that there was physical abuse but at that time it was something that "just happened".

If you think about it both Stevie and Christine left their relationships as soon as they were financially able to do so, thanks to the success of the 'Fleetwood Mac' album. I don't know for certain that it means they were both being abused, but it clearly does mean *something*. We know that John could become a monster when drunk, and as Mick once said Christine finally just had enough. With Lindsey, given the cultural context at the time, I wouldn't be surprised if there was abuse.

[iamnotafraid]

Everyone's seeming to forget that this is the
time period in which Barry was introduced
to the group. And if you've heard the limo
tapes, we all know Barry had a temper.

[beccamorrisfift]

Everyone's seeming to forget that this is the
time period in which Barry was introduced
to the group. And if you've heard the limo
tapes, we all know Barry had a temper.

This might be a stupid question or maybe I'm just missing an innuendo, as I have only been awake ten minutes, but who's Barry ?

[Aussie W/Heart]

So who is this Barry character? Limo tapes also sound interesting:cool:, would love to hear them, are they posted on youtube??

[jannieC]

Barry is iamnotafraid's imaginary friend.

[iamnotafraid]

This might be a stupid question or maybe I'm just missing an innuendo, as I have only been awake ten minutes, but who's Barry ?

Beccmaorrisfift and Aussie,

Au contraire to what my ex-girlfriend JannieC said.
I have documented proof to Barry's existence. Video
proof if needed. Plus in the nether regions of the Ledge
there are threads that deal with Barry. Just an example,
the threads titled "Limo Driver Won't Tell" and "All the
Street Angel Bashing" have transrcipts of Stevie directly
mentioning Barry by name.

Please read them if you dare. Just don't judge him.

[jellyman10]

I think one thing that's potentially missing in this dialogue is the time/culture context. Relationship abuse is something that we're more aware of and less accepting of than we were some 30+ years ago. Stevie and Lindsey were in a relationship in the late 60s/early 70s....its quite *possible* that there was physical abuse but at that time it was something that "just happened".


Yes, I agree that aspect has been under-emphasised. I could draw a diagram of women I know and plot on it all the ones who've ever been abused by a man, as it would be understood today, and the frequency and correlation of abuse as the decades wound back would be very clear.