Is Wide Sargasso Sea about Rupert Hine?

[Dodfather]

Hey guys

I'm sure this has been asked before but I must have missed it... but surely Wide Sargasso Sea is about her relationship with Rupert Hine? I think there are just too many parallels for this not to be the case.

An English man.. her red dress (since red was the colour for The Other Side Of The Mirror), back to her ocean and her white house (back to the US from England) and of course the "after that no words were spoken between the two of them, ever again".. well, Stevie has said numerous times that "something" happened that meant they couldn't even be in the same room again.


If so then Wide Sargasso Sea is being used very well as a kind of framing device here and it makes me think.. was the "thing" that Rupert Hine was married? Did he have a wife that Stevie didn't know about? This would fit with the idea of the the first Mrs Rochester, hidden away in the attic, and Stevie as a Jane Eyre figure who went to his mysetrious English castle (where she says The Other Side Of The Mirror was recorded) only to find all of this out. Of course Stevie as Jane Eyre is perhaps a bit ott but as Stevie says... "Here I am dramatic".

What do we think?

[LilyRose]

I think it's mainly about the book, Wide Sargasso Sea. She might have drawn comparisons between the characters and her relationship with Rupert, but I think it's mostly about the book.

I do, however, think Ghosts Are Gone is about Rupert.

[darklinensuit]

I always assumed it's about Rupert.:shrug:

And yes, the rumor has always been that his marriage broke them up, but I've never heard anyone say that Stevie never knew he had a wife.

- Jake

[BrownEyedGirl26]

Hey guys

I'm sure this has been asked before but I must have missed it... but surely Wide Sargasso Sea is about her relationship with Rupert Hine? I think there are just too many parallels for this not to be the case.

An English man.. her red dress (since red was the colour for The Other Side Of The Mirror), back to her ocean and her white house (back to the US from England) and of course the "after that no words were spoken between the two of them, ever again".. well, Stevie has said numerous times that "something" happened that meant they couldn't even be in the same room again.


If so then Wide Sargasso Sea is being used very well as a kind of framing device here and it makes me think.. was the "thing" that Rupert Hine was married? Did he have a wife that Stevie didn't know about? This would fit with the idea of the the first Mrs Rochester, hidden away in the attic, and Stevie as a Jane Eyre figure who went to his mysetrious English castle (where she says The Other Side Of The Mirror was recorded) only to find all of this out. Of course Stevie as Jane Eyre is perhaps a bit ott but as Stevie says... "Here I am dramatic".

What do we think?

Rupert Hine was the first person that came to mind when I read this also!

[Jondalar]

no. it's about the book and movie Wide Sargasso Sea

[AliceLover]

I heard that Rupert brought in a certain "substance" right before she was about to go on tour...

[PenguinHead]

Hey guys

I'm sure this has been asked before but I must have missed it... but surely Wide Sargasso Sea is about her relationship with Rupert Hine? I think there are just too many parallels for this not to be the case.

An English man.. her red dress (since red was the colour for The Other Side Of The Mirror), back to her ocean and her white house (back to the US from England) and of course the "after that no words were spoken between the two of them, ever again".. well, Stevie has said numerous times that "something" happened that meant they couldn't even be in the same room again.


If so then Wide Sargasso Sea is being used very well as a kind of framing device here and it makes me think.. was the "thing" that Rupert Hine was married? Did he have a wife that Stevie didn't know about? This would fit with the idea of the the first Mrs Rochester, hidden away in the attic, and Stevie as a Jane Eyre figure who went to his mysetrious English castle (where she says The Other Side Of The Mirror was recorded) only to find all of this out. Of course Stevie as Jane Eyre is perhaps a bit ott but as Stevie says... "Here I am dramatic".

What do we think?

I think the theory is very plausible. I always wonder the hell happened between them; she eludes to something dire! Did he kick her dog?:rolleyes:

[Jondalar]

I think the theory is very plausible. I always wonder the hell happened between them; she eludes to something dire! Did he kick her dog?:rolleyes:

I think he tried to get her to do coke again.

[Travisevian]

Well, I like to think so. :)

[michelej1]

That's why WSS made me think of Hines, because it's just like Jane Eyre. It's like she found out he had an insane wife in the attic and they could never, ever be together, for reasons having nothing to do with love!

So, I'm thinking if he kicked her dog, she would have stopped loving him, so it's not that:laugh: Something that ends a relationship, but not your love for the person.

Michele

[louielouie2000]

I do, however, think Ghosts Are Gone is about Rupert.

I've never considered that song to be about any one person in particular. Instead, I've always felt it was about the "younger Stevie" finally being put to bed. The one who was addicted to various substances, addicted to egregious & fleeting male companionship, addicted to fame & excess, etc.

[tabruns]

Well, I like to think so. :)

Travis!! Gosh I haven't seen you in forever. :) How have you been?

[tabruns]

I've never considered that song to be about any one person in particular. Instead, I've always felt it was about the "younger Stevie" finally being put to bed. The one who was addicted to various substances, addicted to egregious & fleeting male companionship, addicted to fame & excess, etc.

Except that she said in an interview that "Ghosts Are Gone" is about a relationship that is so done that she'll never speak to the person in question ever again. She would in fact "go across to the other side of the street to avoid [him]" (as she said in the interview).

[LilyRose]

Except that she said in an interview that "Ghosts Are Gone" is about a relationship that is so done that she'll never speak to the person in question ever again. She would in fact "go across to the other side of the street to avoid [him]" (as she said in the interview).

Yes, the Jim Ladd interview. I mean Rupert is someone she really never talks about. She talks about Lindsey (for daysss), Mick, Don Henley, Jimmy Iovine, Joe Walsh, but not Rupert. I don't even know the last time she mentioned him.

[tothegypsy]

I think in a literal sense, it's about the book. But in terms of what caused Stevie to be drawn to the characters in the book, well that very well could have been the parallels to her relationship with Rupert. Or maybe not ;)

[MrStevie]

no. it's about the book and movie Wide Sargasso Sea

I think so too. :wavey:

[Dodfather]

I think in a literal sense, it's about the book. But in terms of what caused Stevie to be drawn to the characters in the book, well that very well could have been the parallels to her relationship with Rupert. Or maybe not ;)


This is what I mean. Of course it's literally about the book, otherwise it would be called something else, but the question is why this book? Is there a parallel to her own life that she sees in it and if so is this referenced in the song and how? Of course we'll never know for certtain but it's fun to speculate!

[Phil]

Even though Stevie has stated that "Wide Sargasso Sea" was in fact inspired by the novel, I too recognise parallels between Stevie's relationship with Rupert Hine. I remember her saying that Rupert left before the album had been completed and that she ended up finishing it herself. Presumably, the decision to replace Rupert's vocal on "Two Kinds Of Love" with Bruce Hornsby would have been down to Stevie. She has said that they never saw each other again, but I recall seeing a photograph of Stevie and Rupert in a car around the time she was promoting "The Other Side Of The Mirror" album and so this would indicate that they did in fact have further contact once the album was actually released. The photo has been posted on this site but I can't remember which thread it's in. Does anyone have any knowledge regarding the situation?

[darklinensuit]

I agree about the red dress connection. Also, she has made clear that "Rooms on Fire" is about Rupert, which lets "She burned his house down" take on additional meaning. She has said it was love at first sight with Rupert, and there's the part: "When he first saw her...She fell in love with him on that very day." And as you point out, the line about no words being spoken ever again. Rupert is certainly the best fit that we know of. Let's just hear her try to say this one is about her father.:lol:


- Jake

[Travisevian]

Travis!! Gosh I haven't seen you in forever. :) How have you been?

Hello there! I'm doing well. How are you? :)

[WildHearted]

I agree about the red dress connection. Also, she has made clear that "Rooms on Fire" is about Rupert, which lets "She burned his house down" take on additional meaning. She has said it was love at first sight with Rupert, and there's the part: "When he first saw her...She fell in love with him on that very day." And as you point out, the line about no words being spoken ever again. Rupert is certainly the best fit that we know of. Let's just hear her try to say this one is about her father.:lol:


- Jake

Or worse.. her brother.

[michelej1]

Or worse.. her brother.

Poor Chris. Does he have any songs about him?

Michele

[WildHearted]

Poor Chris. Does he have any songs about him?

Michele

Wasn't she saying at one point that Blue Denim was about him? :laugh:

[michelej1]

Wasn't she saying at one point that Blue Denim was about him? :laugh:

When Lindsey did his solo shows in Arizona, Barbara Nicks went and one time I read that Lindsey dedicated "Never Going Back Again" to her. I thought: Awkward.

Michele

[WildHearted]

When Lindsey did his solo shows in Arizona, Barbara Nicks went and one time I read that Lindsey dedicated "Never Going Back Again" to her. I thought: Awkward.

Michele

Haha, indeed. But better that than Go Your Own Way, I guess. :lol:

[tabruns]

Hello there! I'm doing well. How are you? :)

Doing fine. :) Nice to see you again cutie.

[SaidSomething]

I always thought the cocaine rumor was true because on the LP interview, Reflections from the Other Side Of The Mirror...she said the record was done and she was all alone in London. No presents...no tree...no family...

I thought Rupert brought coke in for the work they did in London.

And I often wondered if her Klonopin habit went totally crazy because of it. I thought she really loved him...but how could he do this to her? She left him there and she still loved him. "...the fires were still burning but, it was stolen away..."

I thought the Ghosts Are Gone was Joe Walsh...

[michelej1]

I thought the Ghosts Are Gone was Joe Walsh...

But if GAG is Joe Walsh, doesn't it seem like she must have had a fight with him in the last couple of years or so? Because she didn't used to talk about him like that. If it's Joe, it seems like a recent development. Maybe when they all did that bat mitzvah she had a big argument with him.:laugh:

Michele

[Amlyn]

But if GAG is Joe Walsh, doesn't it seem like she must have had a fight with him in the last couple of years or so? Because she didn't used to talk about him like that. If it's Joe, it seems like a recent development. Maybe when they all did that bat mitzvah she had a big argument with him.:laugh:

Michele

She has rescinded the "Love of my life" comment recently...thank goodness. So either something did go south in recent times or some kind of personal reflection must have happened.

[ontheEdgeof17]

When Stevie writes about her relationships, it's always usually in first person. Yes? GAG is written in third person. I think it's about a relationship she was watching unfold and not about one of hers at all.

[WildHearted]

When Stevie writes about her relationships, it's always usually in first person. Yes? GAG is written in third person. I think it's about a relationship she was watching unfold and not about one of hers at all.

She switches tenses all the time..

Thrown Down = third person (.. mostly lol)

The Highwayman= third person

ELY = third person

Moonlight = third person

Bella Donna = every tense imaginable

Rooms on Fire = third person.. sometimes

Sable on Blonde = third person... sometimes

just to name a few.

Although I have no clue what GAG is about. I have various theories but none of them really end up having much conclusive evidence, because the song perplexes me. And I'm usually pretty good at reading too much into Stevie's lyrics so that's saying something :lol:

GAG makes use of first person, too, sort of. "I thought he was heeeeeeeere"

[ontheEdgeof17]

She switches tenses all the time..

Thrown Down = third person (.. mostly lol)

The Highwayman= third person

ELY = third person

Moonlight = third person

Bella Donna = every tense imaginable

Rooms on Fire = third person

Sable on Blonde = third person

just to name a few.


.....most of these switch at least once or twice. GAG doesn't.

ROF: "Maybe I'm just thinking...."
SOB: "I think of you...now"

Anyway....the lyrics out of context are pretty dumb. :lol: It's the music and the pace that makes the song.

[glamorousnymph]

She has rescinded the "Love of my life" comment recently...thank goodness. So either something did go south in recent times or some kind of personal reflection must have happened.

I have thought maybe she read what he said about her, or tried to reach out and he snubbed her... Definitely a change of tone.

Then, maybe she just doesn't need him right now, because she has Lindsey and Soldier's Angel?

[Christopher]

I have thought maybe she read what he said about her, or tried to reach out and he snubbed her... Definitely a change of tone.

Then, maybe she just doesn't need him right now, because she has Lindsey and Soldier's Angel?

Stevie hasn't needed "him" in decades.:nod: Thank Goodness!! Stevie has definitely changed her perspective about him & their relationship ("moment's...not years of drama") Maybe once she witnessed with her sober eyes what a compassionate, creative & funny musical genius Dave was, she began to realize that talent & passion doesn't automatically = narcissistic techie asshole!

[glamorousnymph]

Stevie hasn't needed "him" in decades.:nod: Thank Goodness!! Stevie has definitely changed her perspective about him & their relationship ("moment's...not years of drama") Maybe once she witnessed with her sober eyes what a compassionate, creative & funny musical genius Dave was, she began to realize that talent & passion doesn't automatically = narcissistic techie asshole!

I meant needed him in the press, not in her life, but i agree, good riddance! She usually finds one hook that gets attention and for a while, it was "Joe was the love of my life" which ended up in some of the headlines.

(What is the moments...not years of drama? I must've missed something!) I'm very curious about what caused her change in tone about Joe. Haven't we all been there? Someone looms in your life for years as the one who got away, and then for whatever reason, the person loses his magic.

I never knew about the Rupert coke incident, very interesting.

[bombaysaffires]

She switches tenses all the time..

Thrown Down = third person (.. mostly lol)

The Highwayman= third person

ELY = third person

Moonlight = third person

Bella Donna = every tense imaginable

Rooms on Fire = third person.. sometimes

Sable on Blonde = third person... sometimes

just to name a few.

Although I have no clue what GAG is about. I have various theories but none of them really end up having much conclusive evidence, because the song perplexes me. And I'm usually pretty good at reading too much into Stevie's lyrics so that's saying something :lol:

GAG makes use of first person, too, sort of. "I thought he was heeeeeeeere"

Not to be picky, but these aren't tenses, they're "person". As you say, she switches from first person to third all time.

She also switches tenses... from present to past.... all the time.

In the SYW doc Lindsey points both of these things out to her.....

[Spikey]

IMO- The short answer is yes, the long answer is that the book and the song are played off each other so that it is more subtle than Stevie doing another Rooms on Fire song.

I think there are far too many specific references to Rupert Hine/their relationship/the song ROF, in this song for it to be a coincidence. The burned line, the Englishman line, they never saw each other again line.. it may have been in the book, but why would Stevie care? Because it has a direct parallel with what happened in her life.

Also, probably, she hasn't dealt with the Rupert sh*t for over 20 years. It feels like a release song, kind of vengeful, like a good Stevie song.. "You'll never forget that kiss.."

One final point- the sound of the song and the pace makes me think of an angry ROF at some points, like the ending. It doesn't sound like ROF specifically but the ethereal sound makes me conjure up an image of fire and the subtext. Of course, I'm getting kind of vague now. ;)

[GoldDustBoy]

I never thought that WSS could be about Rupert Hine, but now I totally believe it could be. I also never heard about the cocaine rumour. I remember seeing a picture from the recording of OSOTM with a pretty decent amount of pot in a bag on the table in front of Stevie, but coke!? Years ago it was speculated that Stevie caught Rupert with anther man, and she never talked to him again. He was in the audience on some of her recent tours, and tried to contact her. She was aware he was there, and totally ignored him. I have to say that I gag every time I see his picture. He is one ugly f**k. :D

[jellyman10]

Maybe once she witnessed with her sober eyes what a compassionate, creative & funny musical genius Dave was, she began to realize that talent & passion doesn't automatically = narcissistic techie asshole!

I think I love you.

[jellyman10]

I think it's mostly about the film, which is a bit steamy, but that both it and the book do resonate with a couple of Stevie's relationships. My first hunch was that the biggest resonance was Mick. It's the 'only thing they did together was to make love' and the 'when he first saw her' stuff. I think the secrecy of her and Mick's liaison meant that they couldn't really do any normal 'couply' things at all. And with the coke habit being in full swing with both of them, I can imagine that they spent a much higher proportion of their time between the sheets. I can also see Mick confiding to her that he'd been very attracted to her from the first time her saw her. He says as much in his book (albeit doubtful in the details, it could be true in spirit). Stevie also did look at times very like Jenny, whom Mick also fell for instantly.

I know the never speaking again and burning down the house stuff doesn't resonate with Mick, but that's what I mean when I say I think it's mainly about the film/book, but that some of the intensity of the relationship finds an echo in some of her affairs, and for me the biggest echo is Mick.

Loz

[SaidSomething]

Stevie was bulls***t at someone in this song. Fleetwood Mac? Lindsey?
It couldn't have been Joe Walsh as they hooked up on the tour. Also, I think Rock A Little was mostly about him. No Spoken Word...They said she had everything...(THEY?) FM? And you wont see me ever again...


Then NO LIGHT/Planets Of The Universe...don't condescend to me...take your leave of me now...disappear...into the air...I wish you gone...and I don't care...

Who are all these prickly men?

[LilyRose]

Years ago it was speculated that Stevie caught Rupert with anther man, and she never talked to him again. He was in the audience on some of her recent tours, and tried to contact her. She was aware he was there, and totally ignored him. I have to say that I gag every time I see his picture. He is one ugly f**k. :D

That's always been my speculation- for which I have absolutely no basis, just a hunch.

I didn't know he had tried to contact her & showed up at her gigs though.

[GoldDustBoy]

That's always been my speculation- for which I have absolutely no basis, just a hunch.

I didn't know he had tried to contact her & showed up at her gigs though.

Listening to Stevie is known to cause premonitions. :lol: There must be someone who knows more about the subject. I remember it being discussed here or on SW.

[Ghosty]

I heard that Rupert was going to leave his wife for Stevie, but then found out his wife was pregnant and he went back to her, which broke Stevie's heart.

I don't remember where I heard that from, but that is what I had heard way back when. Especially the part about him going back to his wife. I heard that part a few times. I have always hated the guy. He killed a Stevie album. She also seemed at her worst emotionally after him. He played with her emotions when she was so vulnerable. Asshole! If the coke part is true, double asshole! If anyone sees him at a concert, please spit on him. (then beat him senseless, lol!)

Never heard he was seen with a dude. But cheating is cheating, I guess. even though stevie was cheating with him on his wife. Sheesh! OSOTM could have been Stevie's Rumours cd! ;)

[GoldDustBoy]

I heard that Rupert was going to leave his wife for Stevie, but then found out his wife was pregnant and he went back to her, which broke Stevie's heart.

I don't remember where I heard that from, but that is what I had heard way back when. Especially the part about him going back to his wife. I heard that part a few times. I have always hated the guy. He killed a Stevie album. She also seemed at her worst emotionally after him. He played with her emotions when she was so vulnerable. Asshole! If the coke part is true, double asshole! If anyone sees him at a concert, please spit on him. (then beat him senseless, lol!)

Never heard he was seen with a dude. But cheating is cheating, I guess. even though stevie was cheating with him on his wife. Sheesh! OSOTM could have been Stevie's Rumours cd! ;)

I did a research and yes, you are right. They saw each other for a fairly long time, until his wife got pregnant, so he left Stevie and got back with her. The gay thing was just a rumor I suppose. I hate his production on OSOTM, and I wish she never worked with him in the first place.

[Morgana]

So sad when one thinks of what could have been! But....Stevie wouldn't be the person she is now had she bypassed those experiences!

[Christopher]

So sad when one thinks of what could have been! But....Stevie wouldn't be the person she is now had she bypassed those experiences!

I totally agree, and personally speaking from a die hard fan's perspective from the beginning of Stevie's solo career, I've recently reconciled any could of/should of done decisions in Stevie's career. In Your Dreams made my dreams come true, and has righted Stevie's artistic vision now perfectly aligned. I can now dare say with no reservation - I wouldn't change a thing...for the most part.;)

[mikephxaz]

I totally agree, and personally speaking from a die hard fan's perspective from the beginning of Stevie's solo career, I've recently reconciled any could of/should of done decisions in Stevie's career. In Your Dreams made my dreams come true, and has righted Stevie's artistic vision now perfectly aligned. I can now dare say with no reservation - I wouldn't change a thing...for the most part.;)

well said!! any regrets are a waste of time...!:]

[Travisevian]

I have to say that I gag every time I see his picture. He is one ugly f**k. :D

That's rather unkind. :(

[SaidSomething]

Poor Chris. Does he have any songs about him?

Michele

If you guys are talking about Chris Nicks song...she claimed it was The Nightmare...he stood with you against the storm...well...that was a mystery...
Chris was supposedly like a big protective little brother...a piece of family so she wouldn't be homesick...and he was the buffer between her and "...the people that gathered around her...do you remember that they were the most cruel..."

Personally, I think he could have done better,

Just a fleeting thought of mine.

Jim

[michelej1]

If you guys are talking about Chris Nicks song...she claimed it was The Nightmare...he stood with you against the storm...well...that was a mystery...


You know, someone else did say The Nightmare, but I thought they were kidding, so I didn't pay attention. Thanks.

Michele

[PenguinHead]

Not to be picky, but these aren't tenses, they're "person". As you say, she switches from first person to third all time.

She also switches tenses... from present to past.... all the time.

In the SYW doc Lindsey points both of these things out to her.....

Great observation! Lindsey did address Stevie's "quirk" in the that documentary. Notice how defensive she got? "You woudn't say that to Bob Dylan!" :laugh:

I don't think she is even aware of the concept of tenses. Though I think it sometimes confuses the meaning of the lyric, making it hard to follow, and I often thought of it as a weakness in her writing, I've come to terms with it. It's just one of many things that makes Stevie...Stevie!

[bigmaclover]

When Lindsey did his solo shows in Arizona, Barbara Nicks went and one time I read that Lindsey dedicated "Never Going Back Again" to her. I thought: Awkward.

Michele

Now that's just plain funny...:laugh: