if the tables were turned

[michelle2677]

lindsey likes to bring up ad nauseum how stevie and lindsey were a "package deal" and FM never really wanted her. i was listening to BuckinghamNicks the other day and realized that even in the beginning, they had that fundamental problems in their relationship: competition. if the tables were turned and FM were looking for a mysterious, tambourine-shaking, velvety vocal, fairy princess lyric writing sexpot....do you think stevie would have insisted on bringing lindsey along? would she have dropped him when they were already having problems, to join a famous band and live the life she'd always wanted if it weren't an option to bring him?


i personally think she would have. i think it gave stevie great joy to see lindsey succeed, even when they hated each other. i think lindsey brought stevie along for a completely different reason-he loved her. he thought he would be the star and never really imagined she would surpass him. i also think if FM had asked for her and she had to fight to bring him, they never would have joined :lol:

thoughts?

[LB Freakazoid]

I'm not sure she would have left him behind. I mean, she often reminds us all that she waitressed, cleaned houses, whatever, so he could hone his craft - it doesn't fit... Why would she support him all that time just to leave him in the dust without anything. It seems that when they finally did move on, they were each known and wealthy. Also, at that time, LB was the one who knew how to turn her demos into the final versions.

[tabruns]

Pure speculation of course, but I am sure Nicks would have insisted on Buckingham coming along as well.

I think its the success and specifically the money that allowed both Nicks and C. McVie to walk from their relationships. The money allowed real independence.

[WildHearted]

I think Stevie would have insisted that they take Lindsey too. They may have had their complications but they were still a couple when they joined the band, and I don't necessarily think that they planned on Fleetwood Mac being a permanent thing. I think they wanted to get some popularity and get there names out there to help Buckingham Nicks, not realizing the massive success that would follow and how the band dynamic would turn out to be.

[Neal]

i also think if FM had asked for her and she had to fight to bring him, they never would have joined :lol:

thoughts?

This, right here. :nod:

However I'm pretty happy with the way things turned out... :thumbsup:

[SortaSavageLike]

Turn the tables on a waitress?

Man, that's just mean.

[louielouie2000]

I'm not sure she would have left him behind. I mean, she often reminds us all that she waitressed, cleaned houses, whatever, so he could hone his craft - it doesn't fit... Why would she support him all that time just to leave him in the dust without anything. It seems that when they finally did move on, they were each known and wealthy. Also, at that time, LB was the one who knew how to turn her demos into the final versions.

I think you're spot on with this assessment. I've always held steadfast to the belief that they really needed each other to break through anyway. Lindsey provided the foundation of pure talent & Stevie had the stage persona & sex appeal to push them over the edge. Early on, Stevie was too raw & untried of a talent for her to break through without Lindsey. And early on Lindsey didn't have anything that set him apart from the scads of other singer/songwriters with guitars in the 70s. Stevie and Lindsey needed each other to make it. I think they've always realized that, and felt indebted to each other because of it. Let's remember, in the early 70s Fritz was often booked because people requested "that band with the brownish blonde colored hair." So whether or not Lindsey liked it, he was always cognizant of the fact he NEEDED Stevie. And obviously Stevie needed Lindsey to transform her incredibly raw little poems into music. Stevie didn't trust anyone else to work with her music besides Lindsey until 1981, 6 years after she & Lindsey joined FM. It took her that long of being famous for her to attempt to break away & make it on solely her own merits. She wouldn't have had that confidence in 1975, and she wouldn't have trusted anyone else with her music at that point either. She was totally reliant on Lindsey.

[jellyman10]

Personally, I think she'd have dumped him like radioactive waste.

[darklinensuit]

I think she would have joined the band without him, telling herself (and him) that it would give them money in the bank and some footing in the business. In her mind it would be a temporary thing, maybe a two-year or two-album plan, and in the meantime he could continue finding work touring with other people as he had done in the past. Once established with a larger audience & some radio play & better contacts, she could negotiate a better contract for a re-formed Buckingham Nicks - or, perhaps, she could remain in Fleetwood Mac and also reestablish Buckingham Nicks. In other words, that would be her balancing act rather than the Mac and her solo career.

Obviously we are all just guessing, so who knows, but i don't think Stevie would have just dumped Lindsey & heartlessly gone for something bigger. For one thing, they had invested a lot in each other over a long period. For another, whatever her faults, she has never struck me as one who callously steps over the people closest to her just to climb to success. At heart she is a romantic, and while she does not always put boyfriends first in her list of priorities, her choices of boyfriends (and whom she dumped at any point) do not seem to have been motivated by anything other than matters of the heart.


- Jake

[Morgana]

I think Stevie would have insisted that Lindsey and she were a package deal much the way in which Lindsey told FM they were at the time. But also there is a pattern with Stevie and the men in her life, albeit musicians or producers. She hooks up, makes a record and then seems to move on all under the guise that with the demands of her career it's impossible for her to have a relationship. Grant it, the woman has a point there! There seems to be a pattern even though she may not acknowledge it. Coincidence? Maybe, who knows? Only Stevie and her boyfriend at the time knows. I do agree that Stevie knew back then Lindsey and she needed each other and she needs him now too. But turn the table again and it seems that Lindsey has never mentioned needing Stevie since their break up, meaning he hasn't mentioned calling her for any of his songs. Or maybe he has and I missed something?

[holidayroad]

I definitely think Stevie would not have joined without Lindsey. She knew that they both had something very magical together musically.

[jellyman10]

Obviously we are all just guessing, so who knows, but i don't think Stevie would have just dumped Lindsey & heartlessly gone for something bigger. For one thing, they had invested a lot in each other over a long period. For another, whatever her faults, she has never struck me as one who callously steps over the people closest to her just to climb to success. At heart she is a romantic, and while she does not always put boyfriends first in her list of priorities, her choices of boyfriends (and whom she dumped at any point) do not seem to have been motivated by anything other than matters of the heart.


I totally agree that we're all speculating, of course we are. But I look at the same stuff that you do and I draw the opposite conclusion. I almost think that SN has told us the truth about her love life so many times that we've stopped hearing it! She puts her career first. She says it all the time. It's almost the only thing she's consistent about. And for that reason, I do think that she would have joined FM without him.

Furthermore, we all know the reasons that SN and LB give for their eventual split. But we also know that they were on the brink of splitting when FM happened along - so why was the relationship already on the rocks? To my reckoning, it was because Stevie was beginning to lose faith in LB's ability to get them where she wanted to go, and he knew it. In fact, LB said for the first time very recently that it was Stevie who wanted them to be a duo, and that he started writing songs because she wanted him to. Also, she's said that, in the days of Fritz, none of the guys were really interested in her because she was too ambitious.

Bottom line, for me, is that she really means it when she says that she has always been all about her career. And maybe when she says heartbreak makes for really great art, she is telling us that she is prepared to view - or even court - painful situations in a way that most of us would not?

Just some more thoughts!

Loz

[GoldDustOrphan]

think you're spot on with this assessment. I've always held steadfast to the belief that they really needed each other to break through anyway. Lindsey provided the foundation of pure talent & Stevie had the stage persona & sex appeal to push them over the edge. Early on, Stevie was too raw & untried of a talent for her to break through without Lindsey. And early on Lindsey didn't have anything that set him apart from the scads of other singer/songwriters with guitars in the 70s. Stevie and Lindsey needed each other to make it. I think they've always realized that, and felt indebted to each other because of it. Let's remember, in the early 70s Fritz was often booked because people requested "that band with the brownish blonde colored hair." So whether or not Lindsey liked it, he was always cognizant of the fact he NEEDED Stevie. And obviously Stevie needed Lindsey to transform her incredibly raw little poems into music. Stevie didn't trust anyone else to work with her music besides Lindsey until 1981, 6 years after she & Lindsey joined FM. It took her that long of being famous for her to attempt to break away & make it on solely her own merits. She wouldn't have had that confidence in 1975, and she wouldn't have trusted anyone else with her music at that point either. She was totally reliant on Lindsey.
I like the essence of this, but offer one correction. Stevie was recording very polished demos (Sara, Gypsy, etc.) with guys like Tom Moncreiff even before Tusk was recorded.

[darklinensuit]

I totally agree that we're all speculating, of course we are. But I look at the same stuff that you do and I draw the opposite conclusion. I almost think that SN has told us the truth about her love life so many times that we've stopped hearing it! She puts her career first. She says it all the time. It's almost the only thing she's consistent about. And for that reason, I do think that she would have joined FM without him.



How is this the opposite conclusion when I said she would have joined FM?

- Jake

[GarboSpeaks!]

I think Stevie would have fought to have him along as well, but I think she would NEVER EVER let him forget that. I also think that's why I adore LB so much, he's humble about fact. Doesn't go on and on about how HE fought for them to be taken together, and doesn't speak out so much about her solo success. Does he internally resent it, I definately think so, but he's super cool about not being a jerk about the fact.
I also wonder how that might have been for LB right on the spot. "We want you to join Lindsey" and Lindsey internally thinking to self "#$%^ this is gonna go over like a Payday in the swimming pool" with Stevie. How on earth can I convince her yes I want her to join w/ me & FM, and then conveying that to Mick and the gang. Both the best day of his life and most difficult I betcha.

[jellyman10]

How is this the opposite conclusion when I said she would have joined FM?

- Jake

The OP's question was about whether SN would have joined FM without Lindsey. And when you said you thought she would not have "dumped Lindsey & gone for something bigger", I said that I thought she puts her career first, that I think she was losing faith in Lindsey's ability/vision for them as a duo, and for that reason I do think that she would have joined FM without him.

We agree she would have joined with LB (which we have to agree on, because she did!:)); we just don't agree over whether she'd have joined without him. Hope that makes sense?

Loz

[jellyman10]

I think Stevie would have fought to have him along as well, but I think she would NEVER EVER let him forget that. I also think that's why I adore LB so much, he's humble about fact.

I kind of agree with you. SN would cast something like that up far more, if the tables were turned, and it wouldn't be to her credit.

But I was just reading 'Never Break The Chain', Cath Carroll's book about the making of Rumours, and there's quite a lot from Keith Olsen in there about the whole story of how FM and BN got together, and if you piece this and all the other accounts together, I think what you get is that LB was definitely not as keen as Stevie was to give FM a try, and that that's the real irony about the whole thing. It was Stevie who had a gun to her head (three months left on that deal she made with Jess about giving up and going back to school), but it was Lindsey who got thrown the lifeline. That's why I think that, if the chips were down, she'd have gone without him. Just my opinion, of course.

Loz

[darklinensuit]

The OP's question was about whether SN would have joined FM without Lindsey. And when you said you thought she would not have "dumped Lindsey & gone for something bigger", I said that I thought she puts her career first, that I think she was losing faith in Lindsey's ability/vision for them as a duo, and for that reason I do think that she would have joined FM without him.

We agree she would have joined with LB (which we have to agree on, because she did!:)); we just don't agree over whether she'd have joined without him. Hope that makes sense?

Loz

I said she would have joined FM without him & let him tour with other bands. I said her plan would have been to try to reunite with him once she had the clout to do so, perhaps as a substitute for what we know as her solo career. From this, where do you gather that I said she would not join Fleetwood Mac without him?

- Jake

[jellyman10]

I said she would have joined FM without him & let him tour with other bands. I said her plan would have been to try to reunite with him once she had the clout to do so, perhaps as a substitute for what we know as her solo career. From this, where do you gather that I said she would not join Fleetwood Mac without him?

- Jake

I'm so sorry, this is stupid of me. The result of my taking off on a tangent from only part of your original post. I've gone back and read the whole of your first post on this thread and of course you're right, you did say she'd join without him. If we do differ, it's in that you believe she would have tried to balance FM and BN, whereas my hunch is that LB would never have gone for that, and that when push came to shove, she'd have chosen FM. But maybe you also think she'd have done that, if balancing wasn't an option? I don't know. I do enjoy the hypotheticals, though.

Loz

[darklinensuit]

I'm so sorry, this is stupid of me. The result of my taking off on a tangent from only part of your original post. I've gone back and read the whole of your first post on this thread and of course you're right, you did say she'd join without him. If we do differ, it's in that you believe she would have tried to balance FM and BN, whereas my hunch is that LB would never have gone for that, and that when push came to shove, she'd have chosen FM. But maybe you also think she'd have done that, if balancing wasn't an option? I don't know. I do enjoy the hypotheticals, though.

Loz

No accusations of stupidity here, just wanting to be clear.
And for that matter, I'll be clearer to state that I wrote what I thought Stevie's intentions in 1975 would have been. Whether she would have followed through on returning to the partnership with Lindsey, especially if their romance continued to sour, is another story.

- Jake

[michelle2677]

Furthermore, we all know the reasons that SN and LB give for their eventual split. But we also know that they were on the brink of splitting when FM happened along - so why was the relationship already on the rocks? To my reckoning, it was because Stevie was beginning to lose faith in LB's ability to get them where she wanted to go, and he knew it. In fact, LB said for the first time very recently that it was Stevie who wanted them to be a duo, and that he started writing songs because she wanted him to. Also, she's said that, in the days of Fritz, none of the guys were really interested in her because she was too ambitious.

Bottom line, for me, is that she really means it when she says that she has always been all about her career. And maybe when she says heartbreak makes for really great art, she is telling us that she is prepared to view - or even court - painful situations in a way that most of us would not?

Just some more thoughts!

Loz

that's partially my thought process too, and why i started the thread. they were already on the brink of disaster, and i think it's not out of bounds to think stevie would dump him to join FM-she dumped fritz when given the choice to go out with lindsey. i don't think it would necessarily be because she was losing faith in buckingham's abilities, though. also, it's so easy to get caught up in nicks' spiel about how they've made this journey together and it was their destiny and they've worked hard to get here and knew they were going to be famous together. well, it's easy to say that now :lol: but back when she was waiting tables, she might have still had that hope and vision but would it have been dropped like a hot potato had FM insisted on her solo. i still maintain she would have brought buckingham, but it really could have gone either way.

i also don't agree with another poster when they stevie would throw it in his face if she brought them to the band but lindsey is is more humble about it. in one of lindsey's meanest songs-NTF, he says "you're here 'cause i say so", which i think is a reference to being in fleetwood mac. "you wouldn't be here if it weren't for me", and he takes every opportunity to bring it up in interviews. JMO :shrug:

[michelej1]

i also don't agree with another poster when they stevie would throw it in his face if she brought them to the band but lindsey is is more humble about it. in one of lindsey's meanest songs-NTF, he says "you're here 'cause i say so", which i think is a reference to being in fleetwood mac. "you wouldn't be here if it weren't for me", and he takes every opportunity to bring it up in interviews. JMO :shrug:

I don't think Lindsey is wont to be humble. However, for me, I don't think he goes out of his way to bring it up, although he has joked that he likes to remind her of it. In fact, in 35 years, I haven't heard him talk about the "package deal" even 1/5 as much as he has mentioned that Christine burned her bridges -- or that FM tried to make him use a pic when he first joined. He seems almost maniacal about those things. In interviews, it seems to me that the questioner usually asks him (and Stevie and Mick) about Lindsey saying he wouldn't join the band without her, rather than him just bringing that up spontaneously.

Stevie says that the Landslide writing in November was about her deciding whether or not to stay with Lindsey. That's how precarious they were. She'd left him before and she was thinking about doing it again. If she'd gotten a call from FM inviting her to join just one month after their big Landslide fight, I think she would have taken the offer tout de suite.

When they left Fritz, Stevie says it's because Lindsey was offered a record deal and they knew they couldn't get him without her. So, FM wasn't the first time he'd made the decision that there would be no him without her. I think that's why she says she wasn't even trying to shine on BN, she was just trying to make him look good, because I think she felt even that record was his deal more than hers (although she told Courtney Love it was because she loved Lindsey so much). When he went on tour, she said she couldn't understand why he got to go and she didn't. After all, weren't they the original Everly Bros. together? I think before New Year's 1974 she had already felt like a tagalong enough and that her musical role in the relationship was being marginalized. He made musical friends and she didn't. It was her whole reason for being in Southern California had been derailed. She was off track. She had had her "I don't want to be a cleaning woman" fill and their relationship was shaky enough that she would have welcomed the chance to leave him to pursue her musical dream without him.

When they finally broke up she says she had been wanting to break up for a year, but held it together long enough to make sure that FM would be stable in the wake of their separation. I think Mick's call kept them together longer than they would have been and if anyone had called and asked for only her, she wouldn't have thought twice. Which doesn't mean that had they broken up when she got an offer to join a band without him that they would have been 100% over immediately. They probably would have broken up and come back together a couple of times before the breach was final, but I think she would have joined a group without him pretty readily, hastening the inevitable break.

Michele

[cliffdweller]

Lindsey provided the foundation of pure talent & Stevie had the stage persona & sex appeal to push them over the edge.

So Stevie didn't have pure talent? She was and always has been a better songwriter than Lindsey. I think she really sold herself short in the early BN days when she says that she was just trying to back Lindsey up and kind of stay in the background. She was a great songwriting and singing talent. Lindsey was a good guitarist (now great) and good (now great) arranger of songs. They both brought something unique to the table when they joined FM. I don't think one was a stronger talent than the other. I think Stevie is too often written off as a sex symbol and not taken seriously enough (when compared with Lindsey) as a major musical talent. Do you think this is really a fair summation of what they brought to each other's music and FM?

[MrStevie]

So Stevie didn't have pure talent? She was and always has been a better songwriter than Lindsey. I think she really sold herself short in the early BN days when she says that she was just trying to back Lindsey up and kind of stay in the background. She was a great songwriting and singing talent. Lindsey was a good guitarist (now great) and good (now great) arranger of songs. They both brought something unique to the table when they joined FM. I don't think one was a stronger talent than the other. I think Stevie is too often written off as a sex symbol and not taken seriously enough (when compared with Lindsey) as a major musical talent. Do you think this is really a fair summation of what they brought to each other's music and FM?

I agree with you, but the topic is Stevie's willingness to join FM without Lindsey. Most of us believe she would have done it. She's the one who wanted to join, not him. It's hard to argue his reason for joining was, she wanted it. I don't think he would have joined if he was not in a relationship with her and it was not her desire to join. If he was not with her I think Lindsey would have kept doing his own thing.

An obvious conclusion we could draw that's hard to admit...Stevie was in a relationship with Lindsey because of their musical partnership. Their musical partnership was key for her. I'm not saying she wasn't talented enough to make it on her own. She was. She just wanted and still wants the security and support Lindsey's help provides her. I also think she wants his respect and approval above all others. :nod:

Lindsey was in a relationship with Stevie because he loved her. She says so herself all the time. I think he helped with her music because he also appreciated her lyric writing abilities...not his strongest suit. Mostly he worked on her music because he loved her. A man wants to work hard for his woman so she doesn't have to. Lindsey is that kind of guy.

Stevie likes to harp on her working and him not ever having a real job before joining FM, but I don't believe Lindsey expected her to support them. He made money doing music related things but he doesn't talk about that much. She likes to talk about her other jobs because she sees that as her contribution to his career. Ironically, the times he didn't want to help her was probably because he loved her. It makes you wonder why he keeps helping her now? Stevie doesn't do anything for his songs. It must be he wants the hightenend publicity her public profile brings when he's helping her.