Has Fm.lb,sn Reached Their End?

[David A]

Hello All

I am going to try and carefully explain what I am trying to say, and or what I sense. I am wondering if this is it for FM,SN,LB . What I mean by, if this is it, is the fact that has FM, SN, LB time as relevant players on the actual music charts come to a end. It is funny, because I know a lot of people say they don’t care about sales, etc. which is fine, if you like the music then that is all that you care about. However, let us all be objective and realistic, Sales do matter at the end of the game. If you are not selling, then you are not going to be around very long , and if you don’t sell then you will be dropped by your label. Also, let’s face it, for the most part TV, Media mostly only cover and or report acts that are actually selling records, etc. For example, I have always been able to tell friends “well, Fleetwood Mac may be old, but at least they aint playing the county fairs”. That example means, that now a days you will see artists like Styx, Journey, Hall & Oates, Pat Benatar, and so on playing shows at a County Fair, and in some ways, even though im sure they are doing it because they love it, I feel bad for them ONLY because they are no longer relevant in today’s music (for better or for worse) and they are haven’t sniffed the top 20, or hell the top 200 in years, and I have always been able to say that FM has never been relegated to that. However, let’s look at the facts.
The Dance was huge in 1997
Say You Will (2003) Well, I know for sure it has not gone platinum, and I think at best it will eventually and or be GOLD. However, it’s funny, when I look back at the Destiny Rules Doc, I sometimes want to jump in and tell LB and Mick, “guys im sorry, but the estimates you guys have in your head are going to be so far off” LOL. I mean, I really get the impression that back THEN LB and Mick, etc, thought SYW would sell maybe 2-3 million copies, and boy was that so not the case. I think the sales of SYW really scared me even then, because let’s face it, for the most part BEFORE then FM never had any problems selling records. So, SYW didn’t sell as much as was expected. However, I think the success of the tour was enough to maybe cover that up.

LB UTS & GOS records. Well, LB never sells, so it isn’t like anyone expected those albums to sell, BUT LB did have a record label for both those albums. GOS is amazing, and I am a little surprised it didn’t get as much play, but having said all that. NOW LB , from what we know, may not even have a record label. So, back then those 2 albums HAD labels

SN – IYD Album. I have said that I give props for #6 debut, and for the most part it is getting critical claim, etc. But let’s try and be objective and realistic. IYD more than likely will NOT go Gold and or Platinum. And at best, let’s say it ends up selling maybe 115,000 when it’s all said and done. TISL didn’t sell, I don’t think as much as was expected, and of course that is followed by IYD lack luster sales. So, for SN any way, it is a strange place, because she still is able to debut a album in the Top 10 , but the problem is the album will drop off so quick from the charts and not go Gold, etc. And that is a far cry from where her previous albums have done.

So, Having said all that. What can we really expect in the future for FM, SN, LB. Have they reached the point where they can no longer sell records ? For me, that is sad, because for so long, I was always able to use that argument, that they CAN sell records , but whatever the reason may be, state of music, etc. Can they still do it? Because if you start at 2000 – 2011 , the numbers kind of point to NO. I mean, FM has SYW as their last effort, and that album had lack luster sales to say the least, LB may not even have a record label any more, even though I think that’s a good thing, but it also says that NO record company wants anything to do with him, which isn’t good, and SN , despite IYD being a maybe great album ( I haven’t heard it, so don’t know), the album at best will be lack luster in sales. What can we really expect from them anymore? On the CHARTS any way.

But, the weird part, is Bruce Springsteen (E Street Band) And The Eagles are still selling records, and FM was pretty much around when those acts were. I mean, I know for a Fact, Bruce and the boys album may have been #1 and I know it has sold decent to well, in the millions, and hell the Eagles last album, Long Road Eden sold 4 million, at the least 2 , and I think “how the hell are they selling, and FM cant”. It is just very weird.

I Know sales aren’t everything, etc. However it is like Super Bowl rings, no matter how many times you argue Dan Marino Is the best, you will always have ppl and the media saying “well, he never won a ring”. Similar to music, “how many copies did it sell”. Most ppl , and definitely the media, will judge bands and albums by where it falls on the charts and how much it sells. And I just wonder if maybe The Dance used up all of FM, SN, LB good sales karma. In many ways, if you really look at it, maybe it did.

Destiny Rules doc, looking back is funny. LB and Mick talking about how they are going to release something extraordinary, etc., and I can assume, that maybe even Sales wise, they were anticipating a multimillion seller, and all the arguments about double cd, etc. In many ways, looking back, since SYW was destined to be lack luster, they should have just made it a double CD. Even though maybe at that time, LB and Mick may have overestimated their ability to sell the record, I can’t blame them, they were coming off the Dance, all be it YEARS later, and The Dance sold a ton. But, you know what, maybe Christine was more important to them commercially than any of us, well, I thought . I know SN took 10 years to make a solo record, TISL hasn’t exactly sold well, and even though many ppl love IYD, it doesn’t appear to be a big time seller, well I mean, a album with legs, and the fact that LB does not have, or appear to have a record label. Maybe FM is no longer relevant on the charts.

To me, and remember im not trying to fight with anyone, that is sad, because I never thought FM would get to this point, maybe I underestimated time itself, who knows. But, yet Bruce and The Eagles still sell.

Maybe The Eagles need to release another new album, and then depending on how well it sells, I’ll know, because aren’t FM and The Eagles on the same playing field?

Well, thanks for all your time, I hope people understand what im saying and trying to express 

[KarmaContestant]

As a fan, sales are irrelevant. Popularity doesn't matter. Radio play is meaningless. I have the music, I love it, and I can listen whenever I want - thus my needs as a fan are met.

My opinion is that Stevie & Lindsey and Fleetwood Mac haven't reached their limit until they officially retire. I'm guessing that can't really be that far away. It's easy to talk the talk, but when Stevie & company hit their 70s, I seriously doubt she'll be feeling up to touring or working very much.

[Silver Springs]

As a fan, sales are irrelevant. Popularity doesn't matter. Radio play is meaningless. I have the music, I love it, and I can listen whenever I want - thus my needs as a fan are met.

My opinion is that Stevie & Lindsey and Fleetwood Mac haven't reached their limit until they officially retire. I'm guessing that can't really be that far away. It's easy to talk the talk, but when Stevie & company hit their 70s, I seriously doubt she'll be feeling up to touring or working very much.

This.

Though as far as Lindsey is concerned, I can see him grasping hold of his craft while in the nursing home. Seriously. He's a workaholic and I just don't see an end to his career until something drastic happens to make his craft an impossibility for him.

[WildHearted]

They've reached legendary/iconic status so no, I don't think that not being #1 on the charts is going to cause their careers to come to a halt like it would say, Justin Bieber if he suddenly stopped getting awesome numbers.

[Silver Springs]

They've reached legendary/iconic status so no, I don't think that not being #1 on the charts is going to cause their careers to come to a halt like it would say, Justin Bieber if he suddenly stopped getting awesome numbers.

Justin Bieber? Awesome? Do they even go together?

[Heartboy]

I wanted to say something but I don't want to get in trouble so I'll shut up. :rolleyes:

[mezzoforte]

I wanted to say something but I don't want to get in trouble so I'll shut up. :rolleyes:

Thanks for your contribution?


I don't see why it would be "the end"; sales will obviously never compare to earlier decades, but anything FM puts out will be top 10 and I don't think they'll ever find themselves unable to secure a record contract. As long as they enjoy doing it and find their work creatively satisfying, there's no end in sight. Critical validation should be more important to them at this point in their careers.

[David]

Remember that, in 1816, the Viennese were saying that Beethoven's well of inspiration had run dry, & that his music was too complex & even arcane to be in fashion or to interest the casual music listener. Indeed, Beethoven was in some circles even considered mad.

And yet look at what happened: the astounding & moving Hammerklavier Piano Sonata, the hugely popular Ninth Symphony, & the incomparable & noble Missa Solemnis.

[caroline79]

This.

Though as far as Lindsey is concerned, I can see him grasping hold of his craft while in the nursing home. Seriously. He's a workaholic and I just don't see an end to his career until something drastic happens to make his craft an impossibility for him.


I agree. I don't want to think of "the end" because that is depressing :distress: Eventually they will stop, but I don't want to think of that time being soon. They will at the very least, I think, put out another Fleetwood Mac album. And even though it took Stevie 10 years between solo albums Lindsey has done his in shorter time so maybe he will put out something else.

mmm mmm....I don't know ;)
But their body of work is sooo vast considering everyone's solo efforts as well as FM albums, so when "the end" does come we will still have PLENTY to listen to.

That's it. Can't think about it anymore :lol:

[elle]

This.

Though as far as Lindsey is concerned, I can see him grasping hold of his craft while in the nursing home. Seriously. He's a workaholic and I just don't see an end to his career until something drastic happens to make his craft an impossibility for him.


lindsey was asked about this by Sara Bairelles at ASCAP, i believe. i wish i knew what the exact question and his exact response were, but apparently he said something like if he stopped it would be a huge change since he now spends about 75% of his time on his music-related activities.

[APerfectLie]

SYW debuted at #3 and IYD debuted at #6, meaning they are still relevant, but they haven't put out enough new material to get new fans. They had TONS of fans after The Dance, but waited SIX YEARS to put out a new album. Therefore all the new fans they may have gained from The Dance probably lost interest by 2003. Stevie waited 7 years for TISL and 10 years for IYD. So all the people who buy their music are people who were fans of it 7-10 years ago. Low sales may affect their ability to get future recording contracts, but in this day and age, record labels are becoming obsolete. Stevie could finance her own damn record next time and release it online and reap way more benefits than she has with WB. WB has still done pretty much NOTHING to promote her new album, so I say, who needs them? FM and SN should give WB the boot and self release their own ****.

[elle]

SYW debuted at #3 and IYD debuted at #6, meaning they are still relevant, but they haven't put out enough new material to get new fans. They had TONS of fans after The Dance, but waited SIX YEARS to put out a new album. Therefore all the new fans they may have gained from The Dance probably lost interest by 2003. Stevie waited 7 years for TISL and 10 years for IYD. So all the people who buy their music are people who were fans of it 7-10 years ago. Low sales may affect their ability to get future recording contracts, but in this day and age, record labels are becoming obsolete. Stevie could finance her own damn record next time and release it online and reap way more benefits than she has with WB. WB has still done pretty much NOTHING to promote her new album, so I say, who needs them? FM and SN should give WB the boot and self release their own ****.

and LB had an album practically ready to go in 1998, and WB held it up. i'm glad he finally decided to go his own way.:nod:

[vivfox]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us. All the facts you stated for us have run through every fan's mind at one time or another. I totally get what you are saying. Keep the discussions flowing.

[vivfox]

Remember that, in 1816, the Viennese were saying that Beethoven's well of inspiration had run dry, & that his music was too complex & even arcane to be in fashion or to interest the casual music listener. Indeed, Beethoven was in some circles even considered mad.

And yet look at what happened: the astounding & moving Hammerklavier Piano Sonata, the hugely popular Ninth Symphony, & the incomparable & noble Missa Solemnis.


Wow. Amazing. Do you believe Stevie is gonna write and record a song more phenominal than Gold Dust Woman this century?

We can always count on you David to inject a little humor and teach us something new all in the same moment.

[kenzo]

Not sell records? Rumours reentered the Billboard album chart at #11 this week.

[Gailh]

FM has not reached its end yet because Mick Fleetwood is still breathing

Gail

[Heartboy]

FM has not reached its end yet because Mick Fleetwood is still breathing

Gail Best thing said in this thread!

Thanks! ;)

[McTrouble]

This.

Though as far as Lindsey is concerned, I can see him grasping hold of his craft while in the nursing home. Seriously. He's a workaholic and I just don't see an end to his career until something drastic happens to make his craft an impossibility for him.


:thumbsup:

Old pro rockers like our Linds don't retire, they create music until carted out in a box. If he retired he'd die, simple as. I suspect he could live without everything except his music.

[Silver Springs]

:thumbsup:

Old pro rockers like our Linds don't retire, they create music until carted out in a box. If he retired he'd die, simple as. I suspect he could live without everything except his music.

While I don't wish to think of Lindsey's eventual demise, I do agree completely with you. Until his fingers are riddled to the point of immobility with Arthritis, he'll be plucking away at his guitar strings.

[McTrouble]

While I don't wish to think of Lindsey's eventual demise, I do agree completely with you. Until his fingers are riddled to the point of immobility with Arthritis, he'll be plucking away at his guitar strings.

Our Linds has years and years and years for us yet - and he's a spring chicken compared to some of the old rockers still going strong. And he has the energy and passion of most artists half his age. I think we've got him for a long time to come, yay!

[chiliD]

Only one "old rocker" who has "retired" that I know of is Grace Slick. However, she just channels her creativity in another area (painting). SO, the desire to express oneself ISN'T something that one "retires" from. Just the method of expression changes.

If Fleetwood Mac "retires" is only that the NAME has been retired. Mick will play drums for somebody, John will play bass for somebody (John Mayall if he's still alive then, most likely), Lindsey & Stevie will have their solo careers; Stevie will have her poetry books, her autobiography, the "Rhiannon" movie, etc. Lindsey will no doubt be recording & touring til he drops...and producing up & coming bands, as well.

[McTrouble]

Only one "old rocker" who has "retired" that I know of is Grace Slick. However, she just channels her creativity in another area (painting). SO, the desire to express oneself ISN'T something that one "retires" from. Just the method of expression changes.

If Fleetwood Mac "retires" is only that the NAME has been retired. Mick will play drums for somebody, John will play bass for somebody (John Mayall if he's still alive then, most likely), Lindsey & Stevie will have their solo careers; Stevie will have her poetry books, her autobiography, the "Rhiannon" movie, etc. Lindsey will no doubt be recording & touring til he drops...and producing up & coming bands, as well.

I read an article yesterday in the Sunday's on Neil Diamond, who's now 70, and he said -

"I don't see retirement in my future, although maybe I'll pull the gear back a notch and not be as busy as I have been. I don't think I'll ever give up music though because, purely from a selfish perspective, it makes me happy. I don't quite understand it, but I think it's what I'm supposed to do on this Earth. It's the best usage of me and my life. I can't think of anything more useful that I can do."

As soon as I read this it immediately made me think of Lindsey.

I'd like to think that, in 2019, Lindsey will be saying something very similar!

[mikeymac]

That's the word that comes to my mind. They seem a little "at their end" because they don't do anything- I mean, besides the same set over and over. With Lindsey & Stevie each making solo albums, I have to wonder if they have any interest in recording a new FM album? It sure doesn't seem like it at the moment.

My opinion/advice would be to get a fifth member something/anything to inject a little life into the band. Then record a new album. Then tour and play songs that haven't been played to death. If I'm allowed to dream I'd love to see them get some past members back- imagine if they added Jeremy or Bob Welch or Rick Vito or Bekka back into the band? Give it some new life.

I do agree with everyone else that says "it ain't over til it's over" so I don't think they're "done", but I just don't know what they're doing. I think they could be more than they currently are.

[elle]

That's the word that comes to my mind. They seem a little "at their end" because they don't do anything- I mean, besides the same set over and over. With Lindsey & Stevie each making solo albums, I have to wonder if they have any interest in recording a new FM album? It sure doesn't seem like it at the moment.

My opinion/advice would be to get a fifth member something/anything to inject a little life into the band. Then record a new album. Then tour and play songs that haven't been played to death. If I'm allowed to dream I'd love to see them get some past members back- imagine if they added Jeremy or Bob Welch or Rick Vito or Bekka back into the band? Give it some new life.

I do agree with everyone else that says "it ain't over til it's over" so I don't think they're "done", but I just don't know what they're doing. I think they could be more than they currently are.

as a LB fan, i'll comment mostly on his part of the equation, b/c that's the part i know the most about:

after hearing his new songs i would call his set and creativity anything that's opposite from stalled. when i became a fan at the end of 2009, i never ever in a million years expected to get what i got at that 4/22 concert in LA - great new music, perfect set w/ 19 songs with 1/3 of them being completely new, at least one song from each album LB has ever done (solo or mac, with the exception of Mirage). as i said over and over elsewhere, i thought he reached his creative peak with GOS1, since for me his best songs on last 2 solo albums were leftover GOS1 songs. the best i was hoping for was to get more of GOS1 leftover songs filled in with some ok new songs. i am ecstatic about what he is giving us - his new songs are unbelievable, and one better than the other. i feel privileged to even know about his new music and be a fan at this time of his carrier.:nod::nod::nod::nod::nod: (where is that "we are not worthy" emoticon when one needs it?)

so no, LB is definitely not stalled and does not seem to be the one who's insisting on the same old set, since he has no problem changing songs and playing new music in his solo set.

as for the mac and the 5th member, maybe DS as a producer will add just the ingredient mac needs? although Christine recoding w/ them at least some songs would actually be really nice - like Michele, i love some of LB/CV collaborations and hearing them together again would be very refreshing, imo.

SN fans seem to be really happy with her new CD, so that's good too.

it's all good people, all good!!

[WildHearted]

To be honest if they can't get CM back, they at least need to think about incorporating more keyboards into their songs SOMEHOW. I guess this is a problem because piano isn't any of their expertises (without Christine there), but I felt that was really lacking on SYW. I know Lindsey seemed to like it's absence as it gave him more leeway with guitar parts and such, but I think it would improve and balance out the sound a lot and just overall be a very welcome addition..

[elle]

To be honest if they can't get CM back, they at least need to think about incorporating more keyboards into their songs SOMEHOW. I guess this is a problem because piano isn't any of their expertises (without Christine there), but I felt that was really lacking on SYW. I know Lindsey seemed to like it's absence as it gave him more leeway with guitar parts and such, but I think it would improve and balance out the sound a lot and just overall be a very welcome addition..

well, there is alway Brett.

[PenguinHead]

I wanted to say something but I don't want to get in trouble so I'll shut up. :rolleyes:

My thoughts exactly. At most all I can say is "blah, blah, blah..."

[mikeymac]

Yes, at the risk of being pounced on, I was saying that I thought Fleetwood Mac THE BAND is stalled, not the individuals. As an alternative to the same old set, I'd love to see a FM concert that is more like Lindseys or even Stevie's. I'd go so far as to allow more solo songs IF that's what it takes for them to bring the same enthusiasm to FM as they do solo concerts and recordings. No slight intended towards any of them when I lovingly suggest they could do more AS A BAND. Lindsey has done ONE studio album with FM from 1987 to 2011- nearly 25 years!!! ANYTHING would be better than the current next to nothing.

AND YES THIS IS ALL BLAH BLAH BLAH :xoxo:

[elle]

Yes, at the risk of being pounced on, I was saying that I thought Fleetwood Mac THE BAND is stalled, not the individuals.

:sorry: didn't mean to jump on you (especially when i saw that was one of your first posts, don't wanna discourage you!). i do agree that they as a band seem to need some kind of catalyst - and hopefully Dave Stewart might be it!

[mikeymac]

:sorry: didn't mean to jump on you (especially when i saw that was one of your first posts, don't wanna discourage you!). i do agree that they as a band seem to need some kind of catalyst - and hopefully Dave Stewart might be it!

oh thanks, I wanted to clarify in general anyway. I really do love the band, I guess this thread made me think how I can see how some might think they're reaching an end. I don't think so, so I'm waiting (patiently) for them to prove they still got it!!!!

[cbBen]

Joni Mitchell and Phil Collins more or less retired too.

Lindsey should reach out to Nonesuch. If his record is good, they'd pick it up. Otherwise New West.

In the eighties Stevie's, sales were based in part on her sex appeal. There are flashes of brilliance elsewhere, but I think Bella Donna and The Other Side Of The Mirror are her only through-and-through great solo albums.

Her voice has lost so much since The Dance.

The problem with Fleetwood Mac is they have ceased to be a band. Even their website has individual photos rather than a single group shot.

And they always are trying to look dark and mysterious. Lindsey is especially guilty here. They don't need an "image." They need to find a way to enjoy each other, or call it a day and just be solo artists. They should smile for the camera like Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers do and look like they are having fun rather than they like have something to prove. They've already proven it.

At the beginning of Destiny Rules, Lindsey asks to John something along the lines of "ready to show these young punks hot to play?" See? Something to prove. Chip on the shoulder. You think Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers get together to prove anything to anybody? They enjoy playing together and Fleetwood Mac could learn a thing or two from them in this regard.

And Lindsey needs to learn that Stevie is the star power. In Destiny Rules he keeps going on about how much more work he's put into the project, as though his doing so should give him more political power in the band dynamic. Wrong! Stevie is the star power. You think she faces the problems Lindsey does getting a record deal outside Fleetwood Mac? Lindsey seemed to forget that the reason that Warners more or less insisted he rejoin Fleetwood Mac because his selling power outside the group was nil.

Lindsey is also the master of the false dilemma. It's either be progressive or you're a total sell out. There's no middle ground. He acts in Destiny Rules as though wanting to limit the album to eighty minutes is tantamount to "playing it safe" and "stifling creativity." The Beatles did the White Album with three--count 'em three--of the greatest songwriters ever all at the peak of their writing powers. Say You Will featured two writers both of whom were well past their peak. Lindsey is a great producer, but he resorts to tactics to get his way that are unfair.

Has Lindsey ever listened to an outside producer the way he would need to in order to keep Fleewtood Mac going for real? Are he and Stevie willing to get some lyricists to help them.? The title track to Say You Will had a great melody but the lyrics needed work. And "everyone's gone to the moon" is such a bad line that it ruins an otherwise good song. When Dear Mr. President covered the song, they pointedly left out the line -- even though it was the centerpiece of the chorus!

This band could make it but they need to become a "band" again and not Lindsey and Stevie sharing a rhythm section. Lindsey did add some great touches to Stevie's songs last time around. But his creative decisions regarding album length and his stubborn insistence that things like "Come" represent a step forward and anything else represent a sellout cost him and the band a great great deal.

That's my thirty-two cents.

[elle]

Lindsey should reach out to Nonesuch. If his record is good, they'd pick it up. Otherwise New West.

In the eighties Stevie's, sales were based in part on her sex appeal. ...

The problem with Fleetwood Mac is they have ceased to be a band. Even their website has individual photos rather than a single group shot. ...

And they always are trying to look dark and mysterious. Lindsey is especially guilty here. ...

At the beginning of Destiny Rules, Lindsey says to John ...

And Lindsey needs to learn ...

Lindsey is also the master of the false dilemma. ...

has Lindsey ever listened to an outside producer ...

This band could make it but they need to become a "band" again ...

That's my thirty-two cents.

you started constructive but wow - please don't hold back on lindsey-bashing :laugh::laugh:

one of my pet peeves - why is there a requirement that everybody needs to have a stupid smiling grin on their faces / look happy? nobody should look natural anymore? :rolleyes:

EDIT: sounds like lindsey's new CD will be incredible btw - have you had a chance to hear some of his new songs?

[cbBen]

No I haven't, but don't get me wrong. I LOVE Lindsey. I have all his solo albums and with the exception of the second one like them all.

I went to his solo shows and was blown away. I admire him tremendously as a writer and as a producer. Little Lies is one of the greatest productions of the eighties. No one else produces like he does. He is the band leader and has a legacy that will last an eternity. Plus he is probably one of the ten or twenty best guitar players ever.

But I think the way Lindsey *fails* to smile for the camera is unnatural. We're not talking about candid shots. Candid shots are a different story.

Lindsey is always trying to create a dark mood of some sort. As is the rest of the band -- look at the photos on their website. These are posed photos and are so gloomy.

If you look at Petty & The Heartbreakers they aren't smiling unnaturally -- they're really happy.

Lindsey wants to get his way, but he uses cheap tricks and does not have the best sensibilities to boot. The best song on Say You Will is Steal Your Heart Away.

As I say he is the master of the false dilemma. It's either do it my way or you're playing it safe and stifling creativity. Red Rover and Come are not giant leaps forward. Steal Your Heart Away is a giant leap forward. But he needn't have spent ten years producing it. The live version from the Soundstage DVD is better than the studio version that took a decade and a half a dozen overdubs to produce.

If he would just get out of his own way and embrace Stevie for her strengths rather than try to compete with her you might have a really great band, rather than a couple solo artists sharing a rhythm section and a band name.


P.S. Lindsey also tends to carry a victim mentality. The "faceless corporate record industry" is always working against him. He is lucky that, thanks to Fleetwood Mac, he will always have a platform for his music. But instead of recognizing this good fortune, he is always complaining. Did you see that documentary called "It's Not Too Late" about the shopping of Under The Skin? Why wasn't Lindsey himself at those meetings instead of waiting at home for the record companies to "do the right thing"? Doesn't he realize they have all the right in the world to pass on his record?

And he quit after just a half a dozen or so rejections, because his ego couldn't take it anymore. That's not how one shops a record. Even the greatest records can take thirty rejections before getting an offer. Many great records get no offers at all. Warners was at least up front with him that they were not going to offer a big promotion push or tour support. That was very forthcoming of them and demonstrated a lot of integrity. They wouldn't have released it at all if it weren't for his name value.

[elle]

But I think the way Lindsey *fails* to smile for the camera is unnatural. We're not talking about candid shots. Candid shots are a different story.
...
If you look at Petty & The Heartbreakers they aren't smiling unnaturally -- they're really happy.

see, i don't agree with that. nobody is naturally happy posing over and over for the stupid picture while saying "cheese". i did not grow up in the US, and you can see it in the posed photos of me - i'm gloomy in them::lol:. but my kids are growing up here and from their earliest age they learned how to look "happy" in the posed photos. so yes, i don't understand it - i don't understand why you'd need to look artificially happy when it might be more interesting to see whatever face person wants to make at the time of the picture taking. i love some of LB's gloomy photos, and i love that he's resisting overwhelming happy-looking trend of photos. (getting off my soap box now:cool:)

Red Rover and Come are not giant leaps forward. Steal Your Heart Away is a giant leap forward. But he needn't have spent ten years producing it. The live version from the Soundstage DVD is better than the studio version that took a decade and a half a dozen overdubs to produce.

If he would just get out of his own way and embrace Stevie for her strengths rather than try to compete with her you might have a really great band, rather than a couple solo artists sharing a rhythm section and a band name.


i don't agree with SYHA being a great leap fw, and i don't like the live version on soundstage - i think it falls flat. but i love all 3 songs you mentioned, and i'm amazed how totally different they are from each other. took me a while to get used to the fact that LB doesn't necessarily have a "style" of music but he's all over the place. and i still think that it is not his fault that GOS1 was held back, it was WB. he's to blame for holding OOTC back, WB is to blame that we didn't get the almost-perfection that is GOS1 in 1998 or 2001, and that these songs got parsed out on SYW, and solo albums after that.

re him working w/ the rest of the mac as the band, he expressed that desire many times starting during the time right before UL - that they should just get in the studio and work on the album all together and see what happens. i'm still hoping that will happen, and it might work with dave stewart as a catalyst.

P.S. Lindsey also tends to carry a victim mentality. The "faceless corporate record industry" is always working against him. He is lucky that, thanks to Fleetwood Mac, he will always have a platform for his music. But instead of recognizing this good fortune, he is always complaining. and demonstrated a lot of integrity.
i agree that he likes to play a victim - one has to go no further than listening to his Tusk songs, where that culminated (and then there's Underground) - but who cares, they are such great songs!:] however, i think he has grown a lot and his big machine-small machine talk symbolizes him recognizing what he has in FM.

Did you see that documentary called "It's Not Too Late" about the shopping of Under The Skin?
oh yeah that doc is the culmination of his "my sh*t doesn't stink" mentality imo - i think it's a horribly and embarrassingly bad doc, with such bad acting and his narrated "deep" thoughts (everybody seems to be in agreement that phone calls are fake/acted - although they probably happened somewhat like that). home movies may be nice and interesting, but you have to acquire some critical distance before putting the doc out. i am glad lindsey seems to have learned from that experience and has this time around hired professional team to record the making of the CD doc, as well as professional photographer.

i am also glad that lindsey seems to have finally gotten over the attitude about needing to have a label, and has realized that he can do whatever he wants - put the CD out on his own, or go small label route.

[michelej1]

I think the smile premise is faulty to begin with. I don't think Lindsey fails to smile at the camera at all. A stroll through the photo thread in the LB section will confirm that. He smiles, he goofs around. He's got a variety of moods in front of the lens and, I'd imagine, when the camera is off as well.

Michele

[henryscutter]

I was attempting to watch "not too late" the other day, did he not think it should be somewhat entertaining to those who watch it? :shrug:

[McTrouble]

I was attempting to watch "not too late" the other day, did he not think it should be somewhat entertaining to those who watch it? :shrug:

No, he wanted us to feel his angst :D

[cbBen]

I must agree with what you say about the cultural phenomenon of smiling for the camera. I often joke that if we become extinct and an alien race discovers our photos, they will say what a happy group we must have been.

But those website photos say everything that is wrong with the band. They are trying to convey some sort of mysterious attitude. If you look at Elvis Costello on the covers of his first two albums, he is not smiling for the camera, but he is conveying a quirky personality that is all his own.

Do you think that picture of Stevie on the website reflects who she is as a person. Do you think any of their photos do as much?

And Lindsey's photo on the cover of Under The Skin has the same problem. It is is pensive, arty, and dark in a way that is too generic. No he needn't "say cheese," but if I were offering him some guidance I would have him at least be more relaxed for these album covers and promo shots.

If the band wants an identity, it needs to be a band again. Again Destiny Rules: Lindsey says something along the lines of "now all we need is Stevie's presence on my material and then we will be done with this house." Her "presence" on the material? It is as though he just wanted her on the material so it could be Fleetwood Mac in name.

He should have re-cut "Say Goodbye" instead of pasting her on top of his sped-up solo version. It would have worked much better (just look at Live In Boston or Soundstage). Say Goodbye is a great great Lindsey song but he should have either left it for Under The Skin, or re-cut it with Stevie to make it feel like an integrated piece of work. The center channel mix of Steal Your Heart Away proves what great work she did on that song (that "if that's all there is" she throws in there at the end). But it's completely buried in the mix! Again, all he was after was her "presence" on the material. There is only one Stevie Nicks and, even with her voice in its worsened shape, she has something unique to offer to Lindsey's material -- if he will let her.

That album could have been really great if Lindsey had made some better choices. It could have been a ten song album, with Down On Rodeo, that would have really held up. To think that Lindsey was fighting to make it even longer than it is makes me shudder. And to hear Tony Dimitrades defending that position reveals his willingness to do Lindsey's bidding, but behind closed doors I hope he gave Lindsey different advice.

A good manager should be anything but a yes-person. A good producer should be the same, which is why Lindsey needs one. Left to his own devices, he falls victim to, well, his own devices. Maybe Richard Dashut played more of a role than we realized.

On a technical level, however, I must say I am in awe of Lindsey. Everything about "Show Me How" is great, right down to that trippy minute-long coda.

[markolas]

They haven't been "actual relevant players on the music charts" in 20 years. Why are all your posts so trollish? :laugh:

[DallasDude]

Any future Mac CD would have to include Christine to some degree for it to carry any chance of being a success. I don't care if she doesn't tour, that's irrelevant to making beautiful music for the world to enjoy for years.

All this lip service about if Chris' songs were hits, she would be forced to tour is BS. Just make sure you do not release her tracks as singles! Then there is no pressure to perform them live. But not having a couple of songs and her harmonies on SYW just made that CD a Buckingham/Nicks project in my book, and not very memorable outside a few choice songs.

[Artemis]

All this lip service about if Chris' songs were hits, she would be forced to tour is BS. Just make sure you do not release her tracks as singles! Then there is no pressure to perform them live. But not having a couple of songs and her harmonies on SYW just made that CD a Buckingham/Nicks project in my book, and not very memorable outside a few choice songs.

I agree that Christine was needed, badly, on SYW. I still get goosebumps when I hear all three of them on Bleed To Love Her and Steal Your Heart Away; they still sound magical together. Even though Christine never changes, and Lindsey and Stevie's voices have declined; together, they still pack a potent punch.

I disagree that SYW wasn't memorable, though. When it was good; it was really good. But when it was bad... I think there are still many fans who are out for blood after what happened to Smile At You, and many who thought Stevie had lost the plot with Silver Girl. But, at the same time, there are those who loved those two songs and will defend them to the death. It might not have been as brilliant as their 70s/80s albums, but it was certainly memorable. Even if it was for some bad reasons. :laugh:

[cbBen]

For what it's worth I think Smile At You is one of the real high points of the album, and that Lindsey's production touches are brilliant. The way he echoes phrases such as "fast as I can" made it an integrated piece.

In my book that track is what demonstrates that the group does have potential to be an integrated unit, and not just a band in name only I was unaware that a number of people are down on that track. Why so, may I ask?

[henryscutter]

For what it's worth I think Smile At You is one of the real high points of the album, and that Lindsey's production touches are brilliant. The way he echoes phrases such as "fast as I can" made it an integrated piece.

In my book that track is what demonstrates that the group does have potential to be an integrated unit, and not just a band in name only I was unaware that a number of people are down on that track. Why so, may I ask?

Because the demo = Awesome

[David]

The problem with Fleetwood Mac is they have ceased to be a band.

And Lindsey needs to learn that Stevie is the star power. In Destiny Rules he keeps going on about how much more work he's put into the project, as though his doing so should give him more political power in the band dynamic. Wrong! Stevie is the star power.Forcing an equivalence between externals (star power) & internals (intraband politics) is the quickest way to destroy a band. The egos in a rock band are about as fragile as egos can be. Everyone is hypersensitive about his contributions. If you don't think that there's a direct correlation between the amount of work Band Member X does inside the group & his or her standing or input within the group, you've lost it. When the biggest star happens to be the person who does the least in the studio or even onstage (both have always been true in Stevie's case), that's going to create an insuperable obstacle of resentment. When getting together with your band is prickly & unpleasant, you're not going to bother doing so. That's why Fleetwood Mac went for years without working together, & why they still do so today.

So if you want Fleetwood Mac to "be a band again," it would be foolish to insist that Stevie Nicks be given the leveraging power within the band solely because she has the highest profile & biggest fan base outside the group. I've seen it happen a million times, & I've even experienced it directly: When the wrong person gets to make the decisions for the band, it fractures.

[David]

Any future Mac CD would have to include Christine to some degree for it to carry any chance of being a success.
Do you mean an artistic success or a commercial success? If Chris rejoined the group, Mac fans would probably love the results & the feeling of closure. But the rest of the world isn't hanging around waiting for Chris McVie to rejoin Fleetwood Mac. The rest of the world doesn't care anymore. It isn't 1978.

A hypothetical Mac album with Chris wouldn't be any more likely to sell millions than one with just LB & SN writing & singing.

[elle]

And Lindsey's photo on the cover of Under The Skin has the same problem. It is is pensive, arty, and dark in a way that is too generic.
oh, that's one gorgeous photo of lindsey, although i like the version with grayish tint better than the one on the cover that has yellowish tint.

He should have re-cut "Say Goodbye" instead of pasting her on top of his sped-up solo version. It would have worked much better (just look at Live In Boston or Soundstage). Say Goodbye is a great great Lindsey song but he should have either left it for Under The Skin, or re-cut it with Stevie to make it feel like an integrated piece of work. The center channel mix of Steal Your Heart Away proves what great work she did on that song (that "if that's all there is" she throws in there at the end). But it's completely buried in the mix! Again, all he was after was her "presence" on the material. There is only one Stevie Nicks and, even with her voice in its worsened shape, she has something unique to offer to Lindsey's material -- if he will let her.

i see this argument over and over and don't really understand it. lindsey should have been allowed to put out GOS1 when it was done. WB prevented that, and made him roll the songs that were perfectly done into SYW. you and others keep saying how LB spends too much time tinkering in the studio, but then wanted him to spend even more time and start all over again with his GOS1 songs that ended up on SYW. these songs were done. they needed to be put out as a perfect solo album that should have been. instead i have to now listen to SYW (which is still a great great album, imo, b/c of how great just 1/3 of LB GOS1 songs that ended up on it are) and skip most of the SN songs that are not at the same level. if she brought to SYW some of the songs that are on IYD, that would be a different story, i wouldn't have to skip so much. again, just my opinion - tastes are very different and hard to account for.

Maybe Richard Dashut played more of a role than we realized.
from what i've seen lindsey and dashut have always had some kind of bromance going. personally, i'd love for dashut to participate in another FM album, but everybody who's so worried about stevie's comfort in making another FM album may want to take the bromance factor into account. now dashut, lindsey and stewart all together - that may be interesting!

[elle]

Forcing an equivalence between externals (star power) & internals (intraband politics) is the quickest way to destroy a band. The egos in a rock band are about as fragile as egos can be. Everyone is hypersensitive about his contributions. If you don't think that there's a direct correlation between the amount of work Band Member X does inside the group & his or her standing or input within the group, you've lost it. When the biggest star happens to be the person who does the least in the studio or even onstage (both have always been true in Stevie's case), that's going to create an insuperable obstacle of resentment. When getting together with your band is prickly & unpleasant, you're not going to bother doing so. That's why Fleetwood Mac went for years without working together, & why they still do so today.

So if you want Fleetwood Mac to "be a band again," it would be foolish to insist that Stevie Nicks be given the leveraging power within the band solely because she has the highest profile & biggest fan base outside the group. I've seen it happen a million times, & I've even experienced it directly: When the wrong person gets to make the decisions for the band, it fractures.

love every word of this post!:nod:

(and that's not the reaction i always have to David's posts:p)

[DallasDude]

Do you mean an artistic success or a commercial success? If Chris rejoined the group, Mac fans would probably love the results & the feeling of closure. But the rest of the world isn't hanging around waiting for Chris McVie to rejoin Fleetwood Mac. The rest of the world doesn't care anymore. It isn't 1978.

A hypothetical Mac album with Chris wouldn't be any more likely to sell millions than one with just LB & SN writing & singing.


Fleetwood Mac wasn't expected to have another big seller in 1987, but they did. As for selling millions, those days are over for most supergroups. But I think it's the 3some voices that gives the Mac "that" sound, and the addition of Christine would also most likely balance the album and please most everyone. It would also bring some closure as I'm sure it will be the group's finale.

[michelej1]

On a technical level, however, I must say I am in awe of Lindsey. Everything about "Show Me How" is great, right down to that trippy minute-long coda.

I agree with this. I think it is one of the best songs of his career. I had very high hopes for the album when this was one of the three songs previewed from it. He tripped me up when he changed the Show You How arrangement immediately, as soon as his UTS tour started, but it also sounded good live, once I became used to it. It took on a Hawaiian flavor, almost. I could definitely imagine Mick's drums on that song.

Michele

[michelej1]

A hypothetical Mac album with Chris wouldn't be any more likely to sell millions than one with just LB & SN writing & singing.

It's not that the world is waiting for it, but the media loves to hype this sort of thing and a reunion involving Christine would get more publicity than . . . Harold Camping.

I think it would sell more, just because more people would be aware of it, due to the increased media attention. It would get that little extra push and coverage boost that SYW and Unleashed outings did not.

Michele

[michelej1]

Fleetwood Mac wasn't expected to have another big seller in 1987, but they did.

Same story with 1997. No one could have predicted that The Dance would have the impact that it did either. I think the mainstream success it had took even Mac fans by surprise. However, I can't be sure, because I wasn't online with my Mac love back then.

oh, that's one gorgeous photo of lindsey,

Please, don't encourage Kristen's mug shot techniques.

Michele

[elle]

Please, don't encourage Kristen's mug shot techniques.

Kristen took the UTS cover shot? didn't know that, but i have much more respect for her photography skills if she did.

[michelej1]

Kristen took the UTS cover shot? didn't know that, but i have much more respect for her photography skills if she did.

Oh, no I'm sorry. I got it mixed up. Kristen did GOS.

Michele

[David]

It's not that the world is waiting for it, but the media loves to hype this sort of thing and a reunion involving Christine would get more publicity than . . . Harold Camping.

I think it would sell more, just because more people would be aware of it, due to the increased media attention. It would get that little extra push and coverage boost that SYW and Unleashed outings did not.But you guys are changing the rules before the game is over. I expect you're right that a studio project with all five fireflies would sell "more" than otherwise; but my assertion was that the addition of Christine wouldn't turn the project into a multimillion seller (like "The Dance").

I also disagree with DallasDude that the situation in 1987 was comparable in any substantial way. The Mac's album was about two years in the making (or at least in the news), & nobody really doubted that, when it was finally released, it would sell big. "Tango" didn't surprise anyone on the commercial front. Had the album sold like "Say You Will" (under a million), THAT would have been the surprise. The commercial aura surrounding the band in 1987 was still very potent. They weren't just considered a hot touring commodity. They were still considered a powerhouse in the record stores.

The reason for my original comment was to disagree with what seemed a widespread view here that, if all five were to record, it would be a huge commercial splash. I just don't think it would be. That's why I said, somewhat facetiously, that the world wasn't exactly waiting for Christine McVie to rejoin the Fleetwood Mac fold.

I find myself thinking about why "The Dance" hit so big. It was good stuff, to be sure, but it wasn't the Fleetwood Mac Hour, the way it was for "Rumours." So what explains it? The Eagles project a few years earlier on MTV may have paved the way, greased expectations. I also think something else was in the air: Fleetwood Mac's catalog was newly undergoing its renaissance, with Billy Corgan & Courtney Love & some other hot rockers talking about the band in very respectful terms. Also, Stevie Nicks herself hadn't been saturating the market. She hadn't toured in 1997, 1996, or 1995, & her tour in 1994 was short & ill-attended. The aura of rejuvenation was in the air, swirling all about the band. Even the talk about the drugs & the in-fighting (remember the cover of Rolling Stone?) was pretty new in 1997. Nowadays, of course, we can't pick up a newspaper or a magazine article without reading the same crap about the drugs. But back then, it was new -- or at least a lot newer. (Mick broke a lot of the awareness of the drug use in 1990.)

These days, it's different. The band has already had its classic American lineup renaissance. It's already done its new studio album. It's already had its big world tours. Stevie Nicks has been on the road every year, & everybody knows what she looks like from TV--she's everywhere. There's no more sense of today's rockers rediscovering Fleetwood Mac. They've been rediscovered already, & even their musician supporters have moved on, as you would expect them to.

People just aren't pumped for another Fleetwood Mac explosion anymore. Even the inevitable marketing for a fireflies lineup project won't generate that kind of gaga.

[cbBen]

Lindsey can work like a dog for two years but will never be able to do what Stevie can vocally. In five seconds, her vocal contribution to Little Lies made the song as much as the hours and hours and hours Lindsey slaved away in the studio crafting it. He has to do more work to make up for what she can do in less time. She contributes her fair share to the band, even if Lindsey works ten times harder. Mind you, I am a huge fan of each of them, and respect each of their talents tremendously.

But Stevie is the star power -- not just in the public eye but also talent-wise, and Lindsey seems to turn a blind eye to this fact.

She's the better singer and--in the grand scheme of things--the better writer. What's The World Coming To is exactly what is wrong with Lindsey as a writer. The lone sane voice crying in the wilderness, the victim of what the world has become.

Everyone has not gone to the moon, and even if they have there's got to be a better way to say it. Stevie singing on that song--and on that line in particular--is more of a favor and a concession to Lindsey than people may realize.

[holidayroad]

I find myself thinking about why "The Dance" hit so big. It was good stuff, to be sure, but it wasn't the Fleetwood Mac Hour, the way it was for "Rumours." So what explains it? The Eagles project a few years earlier on MTV may have paved the way, greased expectations.

I think it was a success because it brought Fleetwood Mac to a venue where people who had never heard of them before would be watching (MTV). That's evident in the amount of posters here who have said that The Dance was the first place that they ever heard FM.
It would help FM sales if Christine was on board, but not many bands are selling huge numbers, anyway. The thing that would help this band the most is everyone putting their egos away, getting rid of the power struggles, and approaching a new album as a true band. No more Stevie setting out of the studio for months while Lindsey, John, and Mick work. No one coming in with songs already written.
I also think they should have more interaction with the fans they already have. They need to be on their fan sites telling people about their plans. Maybe even to the point of asking fans their opinions. We've listened to them for many years and could help them figure out what songs will work and what won't.

[McTrouble]

I think it was a success because it brought Fleetwood Mac to a venue where people who had never heard of them before would be watching (MTV). That's evident in the amount of posters here who have said that The Dance was the first place that they ever heard FM.
It would help FM sales if Christine was on board, but not many bands are selling huge numbers, anyway. The thing that would help this band the most is everyone putting their egos away, getting rid of the power struggles, and approaching a new album as a true band. No more Stevie setting out of the studio for months while Lindsey, John, and Mick work. No one coming in with songs already written.
I also think they should have more interaction with the fans they already have. They need to be on their fan sites telling people about their plans. Maybe even to the point of asking fans their opinions. We've listened to them for many years and could help them figure out what songs will work and what won't.

That would show that they cared about their fans and what they are hoping for :thumbsup:

[David]

Lindsey can work like a dog for two years but will never be able to do what Stevie can vocally. In five seconds, her vocal contribution to Little Lies made the song as much as the hours and hours and hours Lindsey slaved away in the studio crafting it.We'll have to agree to disagree -- wildly disagree about these very subjective views. I'm trying to even remember Stevie's vocal on "Little Lies." I'm coming up blank.

She contributes her fair share to the band, even if Lindsey works ten times harder.Let's take the "Tango" album as an example. Throw out her particular contributions & what have you got? An album that by & large sounds exactly like the album we already have. Now throw out his contributions & what have you got? Goodbye guitar work, goodbye sparkling & inventive track orchestration (praised by just about every major critic in 1987), goodbye engineering breakthroughs, goodbye vocals, goodbye, goodbye. I rest my case.

But Stevie is the star power -- not just in the public eye but also talent-wise, and Lindsey seems to turn a blind eye to this fact.

She's the better singer and--in the grand scheme of things--the better writer. What's The World Coming To is exactly what is wrong with Lindsey as a writer. The lone sane voice crying in the wilderness, the victim of what the world has become.Good heavens. The words to "What's the World Coming To" are fantastic -- probably Lindsey's best lyrics ever. They're wry, waggish, self-aware, punning -- just about everything that made Warren Zevon such a good lyricist. "World" is Lindsey's most Zevonesque lyric.

My views on Stevie's lyric-writing are well known & widely spread here. No need for me to repeat.

I am enjoying our conversation, all the same.

[cbBen]

Me too -- a great deal.

Listen, I partially agree with you about Tango [just brilliant, brilliant production], but to remind you it's Christine singing "Tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies" followed by Stevie coming in with "Tell me lies" before Lindsey comes in with "Tell me, tell me lies." Stevie's voice is sharp and just makes the whole thing work. It's brilliant. And while Big Love became a great solo acoustic vehicle for Lindsey, Seven Wonders is the best thing on the album, besides Little Lies. I don't care that Stevie worked for ten days and Lindsey worked for 400 days. It's the effect that interests me, not the cause. I think her contributions to Little Lies and Seven Wonders are vital to the album and some of its biggest selling points, and she was at a creative low point mind you. You think The Dance would have been successful without Stevie? No way. And Lindsey probably worked ten times harder on it. Again it's the effect that matters, not the cause.

As for What's The World Coming to, is he saying that the long highway is the only way, or is he saying that the lone highway is the only way?

If the latter, then what on earth is a song that says "the lone highway is the only way" doing on a group album? And kicking off the album no less? If the lone highway is the only way what is Lindsey doing in the band? If it's the long highway, then it still sounds like a sentiment for a solo work. When one has a long hard road to hoe, one typically must do so alone [I'm speaking from a literary point of view here]. Anyway the song seems very individual for a group album.

And moreover the song is terribly self-pitying. Lindsey seems to think he is the last one on earth with any personal and artistic integrity. What's that term Alicia Silverstone's character uses in the film Clueless? Complaint rock?

Zevon had a much wryer sense of humor and a much more self-deprecating manner.

I can appreciate lines such as "There's no truth in my life/There's no light in my eyes/And it's all I guess/That I'll ever miss," but the song seems to indicate otherwise -- that there is truth and light in Lindsey's life, just that he has to fight to preserve it. Welcome to the club, my friend.

And lines such as "I don't take what they want/I don't do what they say/So I'm on their list/So I'm gone I guess" are the heart of the beast. So many times he complains about "they": What *they* say isn't true, *they'll* just turn me down, *[they'll]* turn me inside out, I don't take what *they* want, I don't do what *they* say. It's akin to the "faceless corporate record industry" -- a non-specific enemy that lives in Lindsey's mind.

Just who are "they" and what right does Lindsey think he has to be in their good graces in the first place?

[Villavic]

When I saw Fleetwood Mac in 2009 at an almost sold out arena, I confirmed they didn't reach their end. As long as tours are successful, they are alive. Records are another story, they will never have a n.1 album I guess, but tours are a way to keep one band alive.

[Morgana]

As a fan, sales are irrelevant. Popularity doesn't matter. Radio play is meaningless. I have the music, I love it, and I can listen whenever I want - thus my needs as a fan are met.

My opinion is that Stevie & Lindsey and Fleetwood Mac haven't reached their limit until they officially retire. I'm guessing that can't really be that far away. It's easy to talk the talk, but when Stevie & company hit their 70s, I seriously doubt she'll be feeling up to touring or working very much.

And theres that saying, "All good things must come to an end!" best describes the fact that in a few more years they will be in their 70's and like you said, SN & company won't be up for touring. But wait.......there may still be life if Mick Jagger from the Stones keeps on performing as they near their 70's, FM and SN can't let Mick get one up on them. Stevie has always had fragile health and her recent bout with pnemonia sp?) hit her hard.

I my humble FM and SN opinion, for what it's worth (no pun intended) they nver got back their momentum after Tusk. I often wonder had they told Lindsey to take a hike with wanting to command Tusk if things would have been different for their sales. Lindsey refused to do another Rumours and hurt more so than helped their sales and popularity, not to mention the radio station that played the album which fans taped. So Lindsey seems to have hurt more than helped. But......oddly enough the Dance and Bill Clinton boosted them. But the other band members criticzed him too and blamed him for his taking over. Clinton's campaign song was off Rumours, "Don't Stop" The Dance brought back the popularity of Rumours and thts why it was a hit. But I seriously doubt if they will do another tour because by the time they start a new album, and FM takes their time, the time frame to do another album would put them at their late 60's, early 70's. And if Stevie goes on tour to promote IYD it will take even longer.
Sad but true, good gosh I feel old!

[Villavic]

I my humble FM and SN opinion, for what it's worth (no pun intended) they nver got back their momentum after Tusk. !

No doubt! Even Mick admits it in his book. But I guess the momentum would have ended no matter how Tusk or a Rumours-II (what I think it would have been really bad in terms of sales and critics!) had done. The 70s bands suffered, most of them, from a dinosaur label and many of them couldn't evolve or even survive. I think Fleetwood Mac did it fine in the 80s. Tango did better than Mirage, I guess. But we couldn't ask them to repeat the 70s phenomenom.

But let's see what Mick wrote about ending the Tusk tour:

Three days later, in front of a sold-out audience at the Hollywood Bowl, Lindsey leaned into the mike and announced, "This is our last concert . .. for a long time." I'll never forget Stevie's "Landslide" that night, the way she sang about growing older in her scratchy, uncertain voice. It was an ineffable moment. After the show, we had a classic locker-room victory celebration kisses, hugs, champagne, intense feelings of relief mingled with fatigue. To me it felt like the end of an era. And it indeed turned out to be exactly that.

[chiliD]

But let's see what Mick wrote about ending the Tusk tour:

Three days later, in front of a sold-out audience at the Hollywood Bowl, Lindsey leaned into the mike and announced, "This is our last concert . .. for a long time." I'll never forget Stevie's "Landslide" that night, the way she sang about growing older in her scratchy, uncertain voice. It was an ineffable moment. After the show, we had a classic locker-room victory celebration kisses, hugs, champagne, intense feelings of relief mingled with fatigue. To me it felt like the end of an era. And it indeed turned out to be exactly that.

EXACTLY!! Lindsey AND Stevie should've "gone their own way" right after that tour...instead of launching a half-assed, rushed between Fleetwood Mac albums solo careers, just dive in head first...go for it all. Let Mick, John & Christine start fresh again. But, no...we got the insomnia inducing, interminably long breaks between albums & tours. And, was there any kind of growth in those breaks? Not really...not from a songwriting aspect...sure, Lindsey had newly developed studio toys & effects to play with, but that's about it. Strip away that production and any of their songs could've been from any other album.

Basically, they WASTED their time, OUR time, everybody's time in the 80's.

And, despite the "bump" in popularity The Dance had, I still claim that '97 Rumours five reunion was the WORST thing that Fleetwood Mac could've done, and sure enough did.

[cbBen]

I think the Mirage video showcases the band with a fire unmatched before or after. It would have been quite a shame had they parted company before such a triumph. Mirage may be all over the place, but the concert is not.

Lindsey was right to take the band another way after Rumours. Bear in mind that you need songs like "The Chain" and "Go Your Own Way" to make a record like that. It's not just a matter of production style.

You think Sara would have worked better as a Rumours-style production? No way. It is not sufficiently dynamic.

But the album is too long and has too many songs. Take the twelve best songs you have the best of both worlds, and one of the great records of all time. As it is, I have to rate it as my favorite Fleetwood Mac record, but I guess that's a debate for another thread.

Lindsey's importance to the band is fully demonstrated by Behind The Mask and Time. They simply could not survive without him. Lindsey must realize, however--and I think he finally has--that he needs them just as much as they need him.

With Christine gone (and people, she is gone), it can never be called Fleetwood Mac without any of the current four. So they're in it together, as much or as little as any of them may like it. They all should appreciate the opportunity and value the tremendous talent each of them can bring to the band.

I think Lindsey fails to appreciate fully what Stevie brings to the table, and I don't see as much in the reverse. Lindsey and Stevie are made to sing together.

It will go on. There's too much money to be made, if nothing else, and I don't say that as a slight to anyone's integrity.

[Morgana]

. Lindsey and Stevie are made to sing together.

It will go on. There's too much money to be made, if nothing else, and I don't say that as a slight to anyone's integrity.

No doubt...and Stevie said that in an interview once that she and Lindsey would have to be in the band for the next 100 yrs, it was their Karma!

[SteveMacD]

Lindsey's importance to the band is fully demonstrated by Behind The Mask and Time. They simply could not survive without him. Lindsey must realize, however--and I think he finally has--that he needs them just as much as they
For me, OOTC showed he needed them more than BTM or Time showed they needed him. Even on UTS, my favorite songs are the ones with Mick and John. "Down On Rodeo" is pure Fleetwood Mac joy. I wish it would've been on SYW instead of a few other songs.

Christine's departure has hurt them more than anything. In a perfect world (no pun intended), she'd still be there. I'd rather they not tour anymore, get Christine back, and make an album every two years. Actually, they could ditch s*tty Ian & Sylvia, and bring back Billy (who sounds amazing with Christine, IMO). I say that because "Love Shines" from the box set makes me wish Mick, John, Chris, and Billy would've done a whole album with Patrick Leonard producing. I think that's the best post-Tusk song the band's done to date, and Lindsey and Stevie weren't on it. The days of big hit records are over (industry wide, that is), so they might as well do it just for fun. Ditch the overplayed drama. Isn't it weird that the two people who actually got divorced are able to still be friends without any drama?

[michelej1]

Isn't it weird that the two people who actually got divorced are able to still be friends without any drama?

I don't know that there wasn't any drama. They just didn't run to the press with it. At this point in 2011, if they talk about gardens or recipes in email occasionally, I'm sure there's no stress, 35 years down the line.

But in the past, Christine pointed out that she didn't let John know how much she still cared about him, because he would only take advantage of that. She also said that he wasn't comfortable spending a lot of time with her. She said that Lindsey and Stevie actually got along quite well when they were working out a song, while she and John never had that ease with each other, back then.

So, I think that after the divorce, even though he had remarried (and Chris did too) there was tension. It was probably escalated by the fact that John continued to drink. According to Stevie, he was still drinking around the time of The Dance.

Michele

[SteveMacD]

I don't know that there wasn't any drama. They just didn't run to the press with it. At this point in 2011, if they talk about gardens or recipes in email occasionally, I'm sure there's no stress, 35 years down the line.

But in the past, Christine pointed out that she didn't let John know how much she still cared about him, because he would only take advantage of that. She also said that he wasn't comfortable spending a lot of time with her. She said that Lindsey and Stevie actually got along quite well when they were working out a song, while she and John never had that ease with each other, back then.

So, I think that after the divorce, even though he had remarried (and Chris did too) there was tension. It was probably escalated by the fact that John continued to drink. According to Stevie, he was still drinking around the time of The Dance.
Maybe immediately. But, by 1984, John was helping Chris with solo songs like "Love Will Show Us How" and "The Challenge" (named after John's boat). And in 1992, she lent him her keyboards for his first (and only) solo album. Chris also said that John was like a brother, a good brother at that. If nothing else, at least they didn't air their dirty laundry like the others. Dignity after 35 years. Look it up Stevie and Lindsey.

[holidayroad]

I think the Mirage video showcases the band with a fire unmatched before or after. It would have been quite a shame had they parted company before such a triumph. Mirage may be all over the place, but the concert is not.

Very well said!:thumbsup:

[chiliD]

I think the Mirage video showcases the band with a fire unmatched before or after. It would have been quite a shame had they parted company before such a triumph. Mirage may be all over the place, but the concert is not..

You're blinded by what you were fed. The Mirage video is a compilation of multiple nights of filming, not one complete show...some songs are even spliced together from different performances. (I know, I was at both concerts that they filmed...what I saw on the TV screen was definitely NOT what I saw on the concert stage). There were only slight glimpses of "fire" throughout either show (all of those instances seemed to make the final edit of the video, however). "Triumph"?? PULEEEEEEZE, gimme a break. {rolls eyes} That video was just a big heap of musical propaganda that obviously you & most Fleetwood Mac fans ate up like unlimited amounts of chocolate mousse. "Mirage" was aptly titled, because that's what you were watching and thinking it being a "Triumph"...a flimsy mirage.

[cbBen]

Well then whoever put the video together had spot-on taste (save for including Not That Funny). It is a triumph, even if unrepresentative of a single show, and I still say it would be quite a shame were we without it.

[holidayroad]

You're blinded by what you were fed. The Mirage video is a compilation of multiple nights of filming, not one complete show...some songs are even spliced together from different performances. (I know, I was at both concerts that they filmed...what I saw on the TV screen was definitely NOT what I saw on the concert stage). There were only slight glimpses of "fire" throughout either show (all of those instances seemed to make the final edit of the video, however). "Triumph"?? PULEEEEEEZE, gimme a break. {rolls eyes} That video was just a big heap of musical propaganda that obviously you & most Fleetwood Mac fans ate up like unlimited amounts of chocolate mousse. "Mirage" was aptly titled, because that's what you were watching and thinking it being a "Triumph"...a flimsy mirage.


It's still better than the Tango in the Night video..............:D

[On Ice]

I have to agree with CBen about the Mirage Video, it has its utterly hot moments but I'm left wanting more Christine and Stevie. Why two long Lindsey guitar solos in I'm So Afraid and Not That Funny? Also, besides those moments, the fact that the members of the band were not united stood out like a sore thumb and I think they all needed a serious talking to at the time to remind them what brought them together in the first place. If that had happened, we may have been sitting here today talking about at least three or four classic 80's albums but instead we have two pleasant, but far from classic Mirage and Tango to talk about.

**Sorry, not Cbben, Chilli D

[cbBen]

As it happens the Mirage video is what turned me on to Fleetwood Mac in the first place.

I was at a friend's preparing to watch something altogether different, when I saw she had this Fleewtood Mac video. I had actually been a Fleetwood Mac detractor at the time of the Clinton inauguration.

Anyway, I decided to check out a bit of the Mirage Video as a sort of "opening act" for the video we were about to watch. Stevie's vocals on The Chain shook me by the shoulders, and the rest is history.

[BaronVonBielski]

SYW went gold by July and it was released in April... that's not half bad. I read somewhere at last look it had sold close to 900k units. So if that's true, if they release an album in the future or tour or both it will likely push it back a million. A #3 debut in 2003 isn't necessarily bad, in fact I believe it sold over 300k to land that spot. Nowadays you'd be #1 for sure... half that gets you the top spot. I wish it had done better. If LB was thinking more straight up rock and roll it may have done better. If Christine were there it would have done a bit better. Hopefully they'll do another album and just do what they do best. That's good enough for me.

[Christopher]

SYW went gold by July and it was released in April... that's not half bad. I read somewhere at last look it had sold close to 900k units. So if that's true, if they release an album in the future or tour or both it will likely push it back a million. A #3 debut in 2003 isn't necessarily bad, in fact I believe it sold over 300k to land that spot. Nowadays you'd be #1 for sure... half that gets you the top spot. I wish it had done better. If LB was thinking more straight up rock and roll it may have done better. If Christine were there it would have done a bit better. Hopefully they'll do another album and just do what they do best. That's good enough for me.
Huh!? Fleetwood Mac has always been considered light Rock and mostly pop.:shrug: None of the FM (Buckingham Nicks) records are straight up rock and roll and I'd venture to guess if SYW went that route, it would have sold less. The most rock record of the BN era is hands down BTM (and that was obviously w/o Buckingham) Lindsey has always brought a mad pop scientist vibe to the FM equation, that evokes his love of Brian Wilson and other visionaries that made FM work as a solid hit machine in the studio all the way up till TITN. Even Stevie Nicks solo catalogue is more rock than FM's.