The Other Side Of The Mirror - A Re-Evaluation?

[Artemis]

I know there are members on this board who adore this album, and then there are others who loathe it, with some calling it the album which hurt Stevie Nicks' credibility the most. Critics absolutely mauled it, from what I've read around the album.

Yet, is it just me, or does it seem to be gaining something of a cult status recently? I've noticed in quite a few reviews for In Your Dreams, they've mentioned Mirror - and how unappreciated and under-rated it is.

I still don't quite... get The Other Side Of The Mirror, but, I'm quite interested on people's thoughts on why it's being seen as an under-rated album all of a sudden :laugh:

[PenguinHead]

The funny thing is, I was really disappointed (at the time) with Rock A Little. When The Other Side of the Mirror was released, I was really happy because I thought the writing was so much better. All these years later, I like all of her albums all the same -- not for what I wanted/expected them to be, but just for what they are - warts and all.

[tabruns]

I know there are members on this board who adore this album, and then there are others who loathe it, with some calling it the album which hurt Stevie Nicks' credibility the most. Critics absolutely mauled it, from what I've read around the album.

Yet, is it just me, or does it seem to be gaining something of a cult status recently? I've noticed in quite a few reviews for In Your Dreams, they've mentioned Mirror - and how unappreciated and under-rated it is.

I still don't quite... get The Other Side Of The Mirror, but, I'm quite interested on people's thoughts on why it's being seen as an under-rated album all of a sudden :laugh:

Well from what I recall the album actually got a *better* review (from Rolling Stone at least) than The Wild Heart and Rock A Little. I can't really say what the metacritic rating would have been....I don't think it existed back then. I know the album did hit #10, which was an improvement over Rock A Little chart-wise.

As for people hating it, I think that's due to a number of factors:
1. Rupert Hines production just puts some people off. I think this is largely the source of the complaints about the album being muddy or murky.
2. Initially the album only went Gold whereas the previous three had all gone Platinum, and I find that many people react to sales figures. "Oh it only went gold so it must not be as good as I thought". I see albums get re-assessed that way all the time.
3. Singles-wise the album didn't do as well as previous releases. No top 10 hit on Billboard, and no other top 40 single besides "Rooms On Fire".

Factors relating to it's being re-evaluated since:
1. It's since gone Platinum, making it seem more "equal" with the previous 3 albums
2. Some critics cite particular songs as being under-rated. A critic reviewing Enchanted called "Ooh My Love" a 'gem'.
3. Some critics cite the album as being under-rated like the recent Rolling Stone review
4. AllMusic is an interesting source for seeing how albums are reconsidered years later. For example Bella Donna initially got 3 stars, now it has 4 1/2. The Wild Heart initially got 2 stars, now it's 4 stars. Rock A Little initially got 1 1/2 stars now it's got 3 stars. The Other Side of the Mirror originally got 2 1/2 stars (like I said, it originally got rated higher than The Wild Heart and Rock A Little) but now is at 3 stars.

[mylittledemon]

Yet, is it just me, or does it seem to be gaining something of a cult status recently?

Nope, nope... Just you. :lol:

[tabruns]

The funny thing is, I was really disappointed (at the time) with Rock A Little. When The Other Side of the Mirror was released, I was really happy because I thought the writing was so much better. All these years later, I like all of her albums all the same -- not for what I wanted/expected them to be, but just for what they are - warts and all.

I felt exactly this way. I thought The Other Side of the Mirror was an improvement.

[Jondalar]

it was garbage then and still belongs in the dump pile

[jeffd8382]

When I started getting into Stevie as a solo artist shortly after really delving into Fleetwood Mac's albums, OSOTM was the first album I bought on CD (the 2nd overall... Wild Heart I bought on cassette tape). I was 15 when The Dance came about, and despite having to listen to my sister's FM Greatest Hits tape and having songs like "Little Lies" & "Everywhere" ingrained in my memory from when I was little, I didn't become a fan until that reunion tour and album came out. I wasn't fond of Stevie's voice actually at first (except for on "Gypsy"), and thought I only really liked Christine's songs.... but this soon changed lol! If you can believe it, at first I liked OSOTM better than Wild Heart... to my ears, her voice/singing style and the A/C production had a maturity about it that was very appealing to me. It still is really. I loved "Rooms On Fire" & "Long Way To Go" instantly... and there wasn't a song on the album I disliked (save for maybe "I Still Miss Someone"). Over time, her other solo albums became favorites as well... particularly The Wild Heart & Rock A Little. You could say OSOTM probably was responsible for making me a Stevie Nicks fan. I have seen Louie refer to the album as a "concept album" on here... and I would agree in that there definitely is an overall cohesive sound that ties the album together nicely.

Over time, I actually became somewhat a fan of Rupert Hine's songwriting and production on both his own solo projects and on material he has worked on for other artists... this album and Tina Turner's "I Might Have Been Queen" are responsible for this lol!

Songs that remain absolute classics for me to this day: "Rooms On Fire", "Long Way To Go", "Two Kinds Of Love" (I've always loved the verse melody), "Ooh My Love", "Ghosts", and "Alice"

[AliceLover]

Still..my favorite Stevie album. Love it! I was shocked when RS called it an underrated gem in their recent review of IYD.

It, is, after all one of Stevie's favorite albums!

[tbaker3]

I have always liked TOSOTM. I feel like it is absolutely an adult themed album, which was a departure from all her things solo or with FM. It was the first time she had showed some major growth in her musical style. I think the departure from her normal "airy fairy" stuff really turned a lot of fans off. But if artists don't grow, then they aren't really artists at all, are they?

[tabruns]

"Rooms On Fire" is one of my favorite Nicks solo songs.

For the rest of the album I really like these songs: "Ooh My Love", "Ghosts", "Alice", "Doing The Best I Can", "Juliet", "Two Kinds Of Love"

These are decent songs: "Whole Lotta Trouble", "Long Way To Go"

I like these songs but I don't think they fit on the album: "Cry Wolf", "Fire Burning", "I Still Miss Someone"

For my playlist I take those 3 songs off and replace them with "Mirror Mirror" and the piano version of "Sorcerer". I think doing that makes it a better 'black magic' album.

[tabruns]

Here's a bit of a critical re-evaluation: http://blogcritics.org/music/article/music-review-stevie-nicks-the-other/

He makes some points that mirror things I've said before: Her voice is much better than on Rock A Little, and "Cry Wolf" and "I Still Miss Someone" are nice but they don't fit the album.

[LittleSpacey]

I have always loved that cd. I was a rep for Warner when it came out and I loved doing the displays with the promo materials from that album. I love the songs, more than RAL, actually, and several of them are in my "Stevie" folder in my ipod. I was really shocked when I first found the Ledge and realized how many people despise the album. My whole family loves it.

[Japhry]

I Love TOSOTM as much now as I did as a 16 year old when it came out. I was and still am entranced by Rooms On Fire. There is a real pulsating darkness to the album that yes...reflects Stevie's heartache and state of mind at the time, that I myself can NOW relate to with age. As far as Rupert Hine's prodution....in 1988-89....the sound was good....most songs had a cohesive album sound....there were obvious clunkers as on most any album....."I still miss someone"...seemed very out of place, as did Fire Burning and I wasn't a big fan of Cry Wolf.
I adore Long Way to Go...Ooh My Love....Rooms on Fire, Alice and Juliet. I did not then understand Doing the Best That I can but as I got older I felt the pain of that song too. Whole Lotta Trouble would probably sound better with Stevie's voice Now than it did in her exhausted 1989 voice....

[ahafan02]

There are some great tracks on TOSOTM like "Rooms on Fire", "Ooh My Love" (which should have been a single)", "Alice", "Doing the Best That I Can" and "Whole Lotta Trouble" (although the Chris Lord Alge Remix is much better than the LP Version)....the rest is overproduced crap....

[LittleSpacey]

Wha? Chris Lord A remixed wha?? I'm interested now. I will never get over Alice. One of my favorite songs of all time. It's epic.

[chriskisn]

I've always found TOSOTM to be one of my favourite albums by Stevie (along with TISL). I never really liked The Wild Heart (it was the last Stevie album that I bought given it wasn't available in Australia for a time), and I'm not overly thrilled with RAL although I do like some of the songs but I can't listen to it from start to finish.

TOSOTM on the other hand was Stevie at her 80s best, better song writing, rockier songs, sexy album cover.

Was actually listening to last night when I took the dog for a walk and still really like it even 16 (maybe 17) years since I bought it.

[Heartboy]

Still..my favorite Stevie album.

Not mine! I thought the first 4 or 5 songs were good but it went down hill from there. I think 'Rock A Little' is way better and with a better flow of the songs. I love 'Rooms'... and 'Long Way To Go', 'Two Kinds of Love', 'Whole Lotta Trouble' & 'Ooh My Love'.

I hate went record companies put all the 'singles' next to eachother. They should spread them out to make an album more interesting. :)

[StevieNicksfann]

This is a very interesting thread for me. And I have so many theories but have never tried to put them together before so forgive me if this seems rambling as I am more thinking out loud.

I think OSOTM is an excellent album. Not perfect but excellent. I love I Still Miss Someone but agree it and Cry Wolf seem out of place on it. Fire Burning is the requisite Heartbreaker track equivalent to Imperial Hotel and My Heart, That Made Me Stronger, etc... to me so I was fine with it. But to answer your question in terms of critics and the reviews, I agree with what others have said about Rupert Hine's production (and although it doesn't bother me, some find the heavy keyboard and synthesized sound dated), and the fact it didn't have a monster hit like the other one's seemed like it wasn't safe for people to say they liked it and it was easier to say, oops something is wrong here. Plus:

1) Her entire demeanor and energy around the album - doing press and getting people excited was a complete 180 from RAL (Klonopin Vs Cocaine) and clearly affected the enthusiasm around it.

2) The 80's and the world were changing in terms of the freer world of the 70's and early 80's - by 1989 you saw commericals for "Just say no to drugs" campaigns, and SADD (students against drunk drivers) stuff etc... and although Stevie was not on drugs, people wanted to easily dismiss her as that weird witchy druggie and it just wasn't as "cool" to like her at all. So the album's reviews were a consequence of that imho

3) She wasn't as young or as thin or as pretty to look at it in a lot of casual fan's opinions. I hate to say how much psychology is involved with what's "cool" but even my meathead of a brother (lol) instantly did not like the album as much as others - or maybe more aptly put - he loved the previous albums cuz she was so hot so the music was automatically better reviewed regardless of the musical merit. And this way of thinking was prevalent to a lot of the male dominated world of critics back then anyway. So much was said about her looks and then they'd finally get to the music but you could tell they already were leaning to not liking it.

4) Even tho I agree the album showed some maturity in her writing and her vocals were more controlled than the vocal turrets she could have when on drugs, I think a lot of people liked the straightforward rocker she was marketed as. I know people mention the airy fairy stuff but this was said back in the day (usually) in direct comment to her work with Fleetwood Mac. Her solo work was specifically meant to be marketed in the rock format. Stop Draggin' and Edge of Seventeen etc.. Leather and Lace although a ballad was not full of witches and was easily accepted as a rock ballad. After The Glitter Fades I think was the only misstep (not that I don't like the song) in terms of being more country and steering her away from rock stations. Wild Heart kicked off with Stand Back - and although more synthesized was still considered a rock jam especially with that gritty voice. Rock A Little is indeed rock. Talk To Me and I Can't Wait are growls galore lol. However, OSOTM drops with Rooms On Fire as the lead single and my personal opinion was this was a huge mistake. Don't get me wrong, I ADORE the song. But it's the first lead single that was dismissed by anyone ( I used to be a DJ back in the day) who wasn't a fan and was actually the song that was deemed airy fairy to them as a solo artist. In my little network, I would play them Long Way To Go and they would turn around and say "ok, now THAT is rock". In a world of MTV and Radio where fame was so fleeting, attaining buy-in and hooking people in was critical to keeping Stevie on the forefront.

I have many other thoughts - music tastes changing, starting to get more techno music, and getting away from the long haired 80's bands, getting on our way to a country kick and having the grunge era soon after. But I truly believe had Long Way To Go or Whole Lotta Trouble been the lead single then it would have been considered ok, if not cool to enjoy the other songs like Rooms On Fire and Two Kinds of Love and thus would have been accepted.

I personally think the singles released should have been:

1) Long Way To Go - with a killer video to promote it
2) Whole Lotta Trouble
3) Two Kinds Of Love
4) Rooms On Fire
5) Ooh My Love (yes agreed this should have been a single)

[LittleSpacey]

I am also suprised how many people dont like Wildheart. Whenever I think of growing up in the 70s, I remember that album cover. It has 2 of my fave songs, Beauty and Enchanted, and her voice sounds amazing. Nightbird and If Anyone Falls....Stand Back.....I LOVE that album.

[LittleSpacey]

sorry....Wild Heart

[ahafan02]

Wha? Chris Lord A remixed wha?? I'm interested now. I will never get over Alice. One of my favorite songs of all time. It's epic.


The Chris Lord-Alge remix is on the Timespace compilation

[darklinensuit]

It has taken me years to dislike TOSOTM as much as I do now. For a long time I was something of an apologist for Stevie's sound on this album, even when everybody I knew, including people who had always liked Stevie up to that time, said they did not care for it at all. I think this is the point in time when Stevie jumped the shark by going (in many people's eyes) from hot rocker chick/space cadet/wild cokehead to boring adult contemporary artist with tired feet, Yanni-style keyboards, and Kenny G to boot (no pun intended). Yes, there are rock songs on the album, but they were hardly in evidence on the tour. It also didn't help that the vocals sounded worn and sometimes flat. Yes, the RAL vocals were often quite strained, but they were frequently brimming with energy & spontaneity. Additionally, many people could not relate to her lyrics - a widow & a dove, a stiletto in a garter? Yes, "The Nightmare" is every bit as lyrically remote on RAL, but at least in 1989 she sold the crazy lyrical images with a fiery vocal.

That having been said, there ARE decent songs on TOSOTM, and I don't like that she skips entire albums for years at a time when she tours.

- Jake

[bluefox4000]

Oh you're gonna make me re-visit this after IYD. uhhhhhhhh.....Yea this album sucks....yea. It sucks hard. But that's not important. Let's look forward. TOSOTM Gathers dust on my shelf where it should. After IYD all is forgiven:nod::nod::D

Mick

[kak125]

you know i never like tosotm until i was in college. i was having a really tough time dealing with the stress of working and going to school full time and this cd really helped me get through it. i love just about every single song on it and the magical vibe. it takes me to another time and place everytime i hear it.

[holidayroad]

I liked TOSOTM in the past much more than I like it now. Now I feel more in agreement with what Heartboy says below.

I thought the first 4 or 5 songs were good but it went down hill from there. I think 'Rock A Little' is way better and with a better flow of the songs. I love 'Rooms'... and 'Long Way To Go', 'Two Kinds of Love', 'Whole Lotta Trouble' & 'Ooh My Love'.

[KarmaContestant]

I liked TOSOTM in the past much more than I like it now. Now I feel more in agreement with what Heartboy says below.

Ditto.

Every now and then, although it's rare, I feel in the mood to listen to The Other Side of the Mirror. It has to be at night - and I have to have wine with it. :laugh: It's a dark album, and leaves me feeling somewhat moody and sullen. Or is that the wine?

[cliffdweller]

I think TOSOTM is better than RAL. It's much more cohesive, and the songs don't sound nearly as dated. Plus, I think Whole Lotta Trouble is one underrated rock song, and one of Stevie's bluesy best.

[SapphireSister]

Can I re-post what I said last time we had this discussion? ;)

[Jondalar]

The Other Side of the Mirror gave her her only true hit in England, so it was good for something.

[bluefox4000]

This thread made me brave enough to try the album. Big mistake, could not finish it...It's ust so blah. Fades into the walls.

Mick

[markolas]

The RS review is the only one where I've heard TOSOTM mentioned. Have there been others?

Anyway, I go back & forth with this album. I saw an old post here where I described it as my favorite Stevie album, and was like "wtf?" :lol: I don't remember it ever being my favorite, but it must have been at some point.

I actually like Rupert Hine's production and the sound of the album, overall. And I can take Kenny G in small doses, as on this album. I just think it desperately needs to be remastered. Some of the songs are not Stevie's best, lyrically, and I prefer RAL in general, but it's a decent album.

[Ghosty]

I remember listening to it for the first time. I was really suprised by how much I didn't love it. I had been hearing Rooms On Fire and loving it, so when I heard the whole thing I was just like, what the heck?!? It confused me. This was not the Stevie Nicks I had come to know. I played it a lot, I mean, it was new Stevie. I'll take it. But it was so different, and weird. One minute there's something fast and modern like Long Way to Go, then some Kenny G in the background of a song. Then it ends with the circus coming to town with a silly organ version of I Still Miss Someone. Had the music been different I would have loved her singing that song. But not when you picture clowns juggling around her! What in the world was rupert thinking. I did not like his work with her, not at all. And I sort of think he's a scum. Stevie was all zoned out on klonopin and he was married and he goes and gets her all caught up in him, and then makes it his album, not hers, (it doesn't sound like her, imo, sorry Stevie, it was not magic like you say, you were doped up and being led on, long nets of white cloud your memory and that is so sad, but thank God you are better now). Then he goes back to his wife, breaking Stevie's heart. Not that I condone sleeping with married people, but she was especially vulnerable at that point. The scumbag! (oops, i'm off on a tangent!).......

I loved Rooms On Fire, loved Ooh My Love, but the rest had to grow on me (like Two Kinds of Love, Ghosts, etc.) and some never grew on me back then (Cry Wolf, I Still Miss Someone, even though I like Johnny Cash). And it was like half the songs could be on my parents easy-listening radio stations. Kenny G on her cd?!?!?! WTF? It * was * weird.

I like it more now, probably because I am older. I actually really like Cry Wolf (used to barely be able to stand it). But still, it is what it is. Not a gem, to me, but just there. Better than nothing.

Meanwhile, I love that demo of Whole Lotta Trouble, it reminds me of the band playing in the garage and getting down and gritty, lol. It rocked much more and had a more intense, in your face sound to it. I love at the end of the demo when she is like "midnight...when will I see you...I don't think tomorrow baby..." She was so into it. It was wild. Rupert was a snoozer though. Big time.

It's my least favorite Stevie album. I know for her it's SA, but I love SA.

[TheSorcerer]

It's definitely grown on me over the years, but it's still half-half in terms of songs I like and songs I don't. 'Ooh My Love' has been one of my favourites for years now and it was a shame it was never issued as a single. 'Two Kinds of Love' and her cover of 'I Still Miss Someone' are two of my least favourite Stevie songs. I guess in some way I've always been a little disappointed that it's actually her highest selling album and her only one to make the top 10 here in the UK when it's not even her best or close to being her best.

[Jondalar]

This thread made me brave enough to try the album. Big mistake, could not finish it...It's ust so blah. Fades into the walls.

Mick

When it first came out, I gave it a couple of listens and threw it in the trash. I was heartbroken. I thought she couldn't get any worse than Rock A Little and somehow, she managed too. I would not have released that album. Her management should of stopped her. After that I thought anyone who released that couldn't be that talented. It hurt her reputation.

[tabruns]

I would have been really bummed if The Other Side of the Mirror never came out. When it originally was released it got a slightly better review from RS than The Wild Heart and Rock A Little had, and it went higher on the album chart than Rock A Little had. It didn't have the same staying power though, so it both took longer to go Platinum and it didn't have a 2nd hit single.

[Jondalar]

I would have been really bummed if The Other Side of the Mirror never came out. When it originally was released it got a slightly better review from RS than The Wild Heart and Rock A Little had, and it went higher on the album chart than Rock A Little had. It didn't have the same staying power though, so it both took longer to go Platinum and it didn't have a 2nd hit single.

Rock a Little had Talk to Me, I Can't Wait, Has Anyone Ever Written Anything and then If I Were You and No Spoken Word.

Other Side of the Mirror had Rooms on Fire and then whatever struck your fancy. I personal thought Juliet and Ooh My Love were ok. Just saying Rock A Little stayed longer cause it had smidge more on it. Has Anyone stood the test of time pretty well.

I remember Other Side of the Mirror got a ton of returns in the CD stores. Bad word of mouth.

[TheWILDheart]

it was garbage then and still belongs in the dump pile

The Other Side of the Mirror gave her her only true hit in England, so it was good for something.

Rock a Little had Talk to Me, I Can't Wait, Has Anyone Ever Written Anything and then If I Were You and No Spoken Word.

Other Side of the Mirror had Rooms on Fire and then whatever struck your fancy. I personal thought Juliet and Ooh My Love were ok. Just saying Rock A Little stayed longer cause it had smidge more on it. Has Anyone stood the test of time pretty well.

I remember Other Side of the Mirror got a ton of returns in the CD stores. Bad word of mouth.

For someone that's supposedly a Stevie Nicks fan, all you do is bad mouth and slate her music!

OSOTM has a lot of appealing points. Lyrically, it was a vast improvement on RAL. I don't like the production at all, but I think it's aged a lot better than anybody expected. I still can't stand "Two Kinds Of Love" or "I Still Miss Someone", but "Ooh My Love", "Long Way To Go" and "Doing The Best I Can" are some of the best songs she's ever written and the album certainly deserves it's place in Stevie history

[AliceLover]

Rock a Little had Talk to Me, I Can't Wait, Has Anyone Ever Written Anything and then If I Were You and No Spoken Word.

Other Side of the Mirror had Rooms on Fire and then whatever struck your fancy. I personal thought Juliet and Ooh My Love were ok. Just saying Rock A Little stayed longer cause it had smidge more on it. Has Anyone stood the test of time pretty well.

I remember Other Side of the Mirror got a ton of returns in the CD stores. Bad word of mouth.

...and I'm sure just as many people have returned Bella Donna, Wild Heart, Rock a Little, STREET ANGEL, and TISL over the years. You are just harping on this because you personally don't like the album.

[Jondalar]

For someone that's supposedly a Stevie Nicks fan, all you do is bad mouth and slate her music!

OSOTM has a lot of appealing points. Lyrically, it was a vast improvement on RAL. I don't like the production at all, but I think it's aged a lot better than anybody expected. I still can't stand "Two Kinds Of Love" or "I Still Miss Someone", but "Ooh My Love", "Long Way To Go" and "Doing The Best I Can" are some of the best songs she's ever written and the album certainly deserves it's place in Stevie history

I'm a Stevie Nicks fan because of Bella Donna, The Wild Heart, this album and some singles. I stayed with her because of her earlier work and because of Fleetwood Mac. I don't support garbage and I'm not the type to feed into her making more of it.

[TheWILDheart]

I'm a Stevie Nicks fan because of Bella Donna, The Wild Heart, this album and some singles. I stayed with her because of her earlier work and because of Fleetwood Mac. I don't support garbage and I'm not the type to feed into her making more of it.

Do you sit at home in a corner clutching your Bella Donna vinyl and writing to Stevie trying to convince her to pick the coke back up, or something?

Personally, give or a take a few tracks, I love everything she's ever done and I love that she's never repeated herself in terms of music style...The Wild Heart sounds nothing like Bella Donna, and RAL sounds nothing like either and so forth. Why bother with the boards and fan community if all you're going to do is piss people off by slating 50% of her career? People like you are the reason that Stevie hasn't acknowledged half of her solo career in her live set for over a decade! Believe it or not, there are fans out there who consider "Rock A Little" and "Street Angel" her best albums. And ya know what? I LOVE that they do!

[BombaySapphire3]

I'm a Stevie Nicks fan because of Bella Donna, The Wild Heart, this album and some singles. I stayed with her because of her earlier work and because of Fleetwood Mac. I don't support garbage and I'm not the type to feed into her making more of it.

Let's just go with the old "one man's trash is another man's treasure"Just think of the that review of IYD by the Slant magazine critic for example. He must have tossed it into the same trash heap .

[Jondalar]

Do you sit at home in a corner clutching your Bella Donna vinyl and writing to Stevie trying to convince her to pick the coke back up, or something?

Personally, give or a take a few tracks, I love everything she's ever done and I love that she's never repeated herself in terms of music style...The Wild Heart sounds nothing like Bella Donna, and RAL sounds nothing like either and so forth. Why bother with the boards and fan community if all you're going to do is piss people off by slating 50% of her career? People like you are the reason that Stevie hasn't acknowledged half of her solo career in her live set for over a decade! Believe it or not, there are fans out there who consider "Rock A Little" and "Street Angel" her best albums. And ya know what? I LOVE that they do!

yada yada yada (sigh)

[bluefox4000]

so not everybody likes Stevie post WH output. So What? I know i'm gonna get yelled at and I should shut up .....but she's not immune to criticism . I'm so gonna hear it from someone..lol:eek:

Mick

[chiliD]

it was garbage then and still belongs in the dump pile


I think this is the one & only topic that we ever agree on. I can live with that. :thumbsup:


Other Side of the Mirror had Rooms on Fire ....

...and that was it. The rest is foul-smelling, rotting sludge.


Now Rock A Little...Side 1: "I Can't Wait" loved it...the rest of side 1 was crap. Side 2: other than a slight dip in quality with "Nightmare", Side 2 was the best stuff she'd done outside of Fleetwood Mac to date. So, yeah, expectations were beyond high with OSOTM.

When I heard "Maybe Love Will Change Your Mind" for the first time, I said OUT LOUD to myself..."She's BAAACK". Was a little disappointed with about 1/2 of Street Angel, but the 1/2 I liked, I liked A LOT. Then came TISL...STILL my favorite non-Fleetwood Mac Stevie album. Will In Your Dreams supplant it? WAY too early to tell. On that Rolling Stone.com preview, let's put it this way...I wasn't turned off by any of the tunes upon first listen.

[Kooch68]

For every one person who thought the album was garbage, there are several others who love it. I personally love TOSOTM and RAL because they were definitetly turning points in her career and personal life. I just do not agree with everyone's idea to just dismiss something because YOU don't like it. I don't get it :shrug: I think all of her albums have high points and low points. While I love "Bella Donna", in order for her to grow as an artist and share other parts of her life, she has to move on. That unfortunately is the growth of an artist....By the way I really like SA too so I guess that makes me a bad fan.... whatevs !

[louielouie2000]

I've always called OSOTM a "mood album"... I really have to be in the mood to hear it! :laugh: There are quite a few aspects of the album I do truly like, though. It's the closest thing Stevie's ever done to a concept album (and I do love a concept album!). Because of that, you might even be able to call OSOTM her most consistent work. I really do go back and forth on what I think of the theme of the album, though. Being a Stevie fan, of COURSE I adore the mysticism this album heaps on. But there is such a thing as too much of a good thing. In that aspect, it almost comes across as cliche and unimaginative. Like I started out with, when I'm in the mood to hear this album, nothing's better. But most of the time it's just a bit too over the top in it's ultra concentrated Stevieness for me. I love the album, but I just have to take it in small doses, spread very far apart.

[Jondalar]

I've always called OSOTM a "mood album"... I really have to be in the mood to hear it! :laugh: There are quite a few aspects of the album I do truly like, though. It's the closest thing Stevie's ever done to a concept album (and I do love a concept album!). Because of that, you might even be able to call OSOTM her most consistent work. I really do go back and forth on what I think of the theme of the album, though. Being a Stevie fan, of COURSE I adore the mysticism this album heaps on. But there is such a thing as too much of a good thing. In that aspect, it almost comes across as cliche and unimaginative. Like I started out with, when I'm in the mood to hear this album, nothing's better. But most of the time it's just a bit too over the top in it's ultra concentrated Stevieness for me. I love the album, but I just have to take it in small doses, spread very far apart.

That album to me just seemed like she didn't try. Her vocals to me were soooo lazy and the synth production was just wrong.

[tabruns]

I'm a Stevie Nicks fan because of Bella Donna, The Wild Heart, this album and some singles. I stayed with her because of her earlier work and because of Fleetwood Mac. I don't support garbage and I'm not the type to feed into her making more of it.

This is your problem though Jondalar. You're not saying "in my opinion this" or "I feel this way", you're saying "I don't support garbage" as in "I think it's garbage therefore IT IS". Like I've said before, you're projecting what's just your opinion as Real Truth and it's not.

The closest we can get to objectively critiquing Nicks albums is by combining factors like critical reviews, chart performance, sales, number and success of singles, and even those factors can be impacted by things that have nothing to do with album quality: For example, In Your Dreams might well not go Gold, not because its a bad album but simply because hardly anyone's albums go Gold these days.

[chriskisn]

I'm a Stevie Nicks fan because of Bella Donna, The Wild Heart, this album and some singles. I stayed with her because of her earlier work and because of Fleetwood Mac. I don't support garbage and I'm not the type to feed into her making more of it.

Yet you like the new album :laugh: j/k

;)

[Jondalar]

This is your problem though Jondalar. You're not saying "in my opinion this" or "I feel this way", you're saying "I don't support garbage" as in "I think it's garbage therefore IT IS". Like I've said before, you're projecting what's just your opinion as Real Truth and it's not.

The closest we can get to objectively critiquing Nicks albums is by combining factors like critical reviews, chart performance, sales, number and success of singles, and even those factors can be impacted by things that have nothing to do with album quality: For example, In Your Dreams might well not go Gold, not because its a bad album but simply because hardly anyone's albums go Gold these days.

No matter how try to make it out like I'm quantifying things, it was a loaded stinker. Yet, knowing that she had more in her, over the years I bought about 8 copies of it so that she would get the support she needed to make another album. I also did this with Street Angel which reaked and TISL, which I didn't exactly hate, but couldn't not support by saying it was actually good.

You are living in some falsehood that Stevie does not care about sales or they don't matter. I know how she is. I read the interviews, watched the youtube videos. She is motivated by status and sells. So is her record company. She needs to get the sales to have the emotional and financial support to make a REAL record, which I knew she could and has.

As far as The Other Side of the Mirror is concerned, a twelve year old could of written it and produced it on a synthesizor. It reaked of self-indulgence, especially vocally. She didn't even try. It's not the fact that she didn't even try, I could not get over the fact that she actually released it. Did she think her fans would accept any pile of pooh? Yes, she did and she got slapped down for it like she should. Her career decline was her own doing.

[tabruns]

No matter how try to make it out like I'm quantifying things, it was a loaded stinker. Yet, knowing that she had more in her, over the years I bought about 8 copies of it so that she would get the support she needed to make another album. I also did this with Street Angel which reaked and TISL, which I didn't exactly hate, but couldn't not support by saying it was actually good.

You are living in some falsehood that Stevie does not care about sales or they don't matter. I know how she is. I read the interviews, watched the youtube videos. She is motivated by status and sells. So is her record company. She needs to get the sales to have the emotional and financial support to make a REAL record, which I knew she could and has.

As far as The Other Side of the Mirror is concerned, a twelve year old could of written it and produced it on a synthesizor. It reaked of self-indulgence, especially vocally. She didn't even try. It's not the fact that she didn't even try, I could not get over the fact that she actually released it. Did she think her fans would accept any pile of pooh? Yes, she did and she got slapped down for it like she should. Her career decline was her own doing.

Wow, you just jump to so many amazing conclusions.

"You are living in a falsehood that Stevie does not care about sales". I never said anything about whether SHE cares. I have no idea whether she does or doesn't, and wouldn't presume to know. I'm not making the argument that she doesn't care at all. I'm making the argument that other than some statistics of "success" everything else is PURE opinion and you keep asserting your OPINION as if its well known fact.

"I know how she is". You know Stevie Nicks personally? You're actually doing here what you just falsely accused me of doing. You're asserting her point of view when you don't really know her, something you claimed I was doing when I wasn't.

Your hatred of TOSOTM is fine in that you are free to like or dislike whatever you want, but you keep seeming to think that you have to somehow "prove" that your opinion is THE FACT. For some reason you can't just leave it be that you hate the album but others love it. You also keep asserting that TOSOTM led to her career decline, when critically it was actually treated similarly to her previous three albums. As I've pointed out before, if you look at Rolling Stone in particular they actually rated TOSOTM slightly higher than they had TWH and RAL. The album charted higher than RAL did, and the album went Platinum. None of these facts means that you have to like it or that you're "wrong" to not like, but they do mean that maybe the album wasn't the career-killing mess that you keep wanting to make it into.

[mylittledemon]

She is motivated by status and sells. So is her record company. She needs to get the sales to have the emotional and financial support to make a REAL record, which I knew she could and has.


Not necessarily true. Stevie has come to understand how "fragmented" the record business is today. I don't think she's as hung up on sales as much as the record company is. Most artists get paid before they even make the record. Then of course there are residuals. Also... when you cut a record I believe you only get paid up to 10 or 11 songs. So that would mean Stevie would have no reason to put 13 or 14 tracks on her album if she was motivated by sales alone. Stevie knows she has fans, she knows that the fans support her. I don't think she would ever say "Well I'm not going to make this record because it won't sell." Sure money and sales are a factor, but not necessarily the whole motivation.

[Kooch68]

:thumbsup: Tabruns! Thank you for pointing that fact out...It seems so many fans project their feelings as "gospel" when in fact its just their opinion......Opinions are fine as long as they are stated as such.

[Jondalar]

Wow, you just jump to so many amazing conclusions.

"You are living in a falsehood that Stevie does not care about sales". I never said anything about whether SHE cares. I have no idea whether she does or doesn't, and wouldn't presume to know. I'm not making the argument that she doesn't care at all. I'm making the argument that other than some statistics of "success" everything else is PURE opinion and you keep asserting your OPINION as if its well known fact.

"I know how she is". You know Stevie Nicks personally? You're actually doing here what you just falsely accused me of doing. You're asserting her point of view when you don't really know here, something you claimed I was doing when I wasn't.

Your hatred of TOSOTM is fine in that you are free to like or dislike whatever you want, but you keep seeming to think that you have to somehow "prove" that your opinion is THE FACT. For some reason you can't just leave it be that you hate the album but others love it. You also keep asserting that TOSOTM led to her career decline, when critically it was actually treated similarly to her previous three albums. As I've pointed out before, if you look at Rolling Stone in particular they actually rated TOSOTM slightly higher than they had TWH and RAL. The album charted higher than RAL did, and the album went Platinum. None of these facts means that you have to like it or that you're "wrong" to not like, but they do mean that maybe the album wasn't the career-killing mess that you keep wanting to make it into.

It went platinum after the Dance, just like Street Angel went Gold and Timespace went Platinum. That was all about The Dance. It wouldn't of happened without the Dance. And Stevie, not going Platinum in 1989 was a lot more devasting than not reaching Gold status with Street Angel. She just came off Tango. The album charted higher than RAL because 1985 and 86 was a lot more competive than 1989 and she came off of Tango. She should of managed to go platinum. Bad word of mouth and no singles killed it. RS suddenly gives Stevie one more good rating (TISL) AFTER THE DANCE. After Sheryl Crow, Coutney Love come out in her defense... Oh and by the way critic darling Sheryl Crown and John Shanks are producing the album. Bah.

Yeah, I have re-evaluated TOSOTM and it still sucks.

[Jondalar]

Not necessarily true. Stevie has come to understand how "fragmented" the record business is today. I don't think she's as hung up on sales as much as the record company is. Most artists get paid before they even make the record. Then of course there are residuals. Also... when you cut a record I believe you only get paid up to 10 or 11 songs. So that would mean Stevie would have no reason to put 13 or 14 tracks on her album if she was motivated by sales alone. Stevie knows she has fans, she knows that the fans support her. I don't think she would ever say "Well I'm not going to make this record because it won't sell." Sure money and sales are a factor, but not necessarily the whole motivation.

You're talking about this album. This about the past.

[tabruns]

:thumbsup: Tabruns! Thank you for pointing that fact out...It seems so many fans project their feelings as "gospel" when in fact its just their opinion......Opinions are fine as long as they are stated as such.

Thanks Kooch.

I do have to say I've seen Jondalar make some very interesting points on other issues so I'm not trying to dismiss his take on TOSOTM, which is a valid point of view. I'm just stressing to him that it's a point of view. I am very opinionated myself so I know that its really easy to come across as "my way or the highway" when that's not really how you intend it.

[AliceLover]

Wow, you just jump to so many amazing conclusions.

"You are living in a falsehood that Stevie does not care about sales". I never said anything about whether SHE cares. I have no idea whether she does or doesn't, and wouldn't presume to know. I'm not making the argument that she doesn't care at all. I'm making the argument that other than some statistics of "success" everything else is PURE opinion and you keep asserting your OPINION as if its well known fact.

"I know how she is". You know Stevie Nicks personally? You're actually doing here what you just falsely accused me of doing. You're asserting her point of view when you don't really know her, something you claimed I was doing when I wasn't.

Your hatred of TOSOTM is fine in that you are free to like or dislike whatever you want, but you keep seeming to think that you have to somehow "prove" that your opinion is THE FACT. For some reason you can't just leave it be that you hate the album but others love it. You also keep asserting that TOSOTM led to her career decline, when critically it was actually treated similarly to her previous three albums. As I've pointed out before, if you look at Rolling Stone in particular they actually rated TOSOTM slightly higher than they had TWH and RAL. The album charted higher than RAL did, and the album went Platinum. None of these facts means that you have to like it or that you're "wrong" to not like, but they do mean that maybe the album wasn't the career-killing mess that you keep wanting to make it into.

Thank you!

I would respond, but I think I'm blocked by Jonolar or whatever.

I love OSOTM! A lot of this has to do with the memories it brings me back to. I love songs off of every Stevie album. I don't consider anything she does as "garbage." I may favor some tracks over others, but at the end of the day, she's still my home-skillet! :p

[Jondalar]

Thank you!

I would respond, but I think I'm blocked by Jonolar or whatever.

I love OSOTM! A lot of this has to do with the memories it brings me back to. I love songs off of every Stevie album. I don't consider anything she does as "garbage." I may favor some tracks over others, but at the end of the day, she's still my home-skillet! :p

I remember that album as the album that almost signaled the end of her solo career.

[AliceLover]

I remember that album as the album that almost signaled the end of her solo career.

Well, 21 years later, we now know it wasn't.

BTW OSOTM was the last album to go platinum! :D

...even if 500,000 returned their copies, which is so obviously true!

[Jondalar]

Here:

The Other Side of the Mirror went Gold in 1989 (Her first album to not go platinum immediately.

Timespace released in 1991 only manages to go gold

Street Angel 1994 fails to even go gold

1997 THE DANCE HAPPENS


Suddenly a slew of ceritifcations, plus her box set goes GOLD

MORE NICKS, STEVIE STREET ANGEL MAY 23, 1994 NOVEMBER 25, 1997 ATLANTIC GOLD ALBUM SOLO


MORE NICKS, STEVIE THE OTHER SIDE OF THE MIRROR MAY 11, 1989 NOVEMBER 19, 1997 MODERN PLATINUM ALBUM SOLO


MORE NICKS, STEVIE TIMESPACE: THE BEST OF STEVIE NICKS AUGUST 23, 1991 NOVEMBER 11, 1997 MODERN PLATINUM ALBUM SOLO

it saved her

[tabruns]

It went platinum after the Dance, just like Street Angel went Gold and Timespace went Platinum. That was all about The Dance. It wouldn't of happened without the Dance. And Stevie, not going Platinum in 1989 was a lot more devasting than not reaching Gold status with Street Angel. She just came off Tango. The album charted higher than RAL because 1985 and 86 was a lot more competive than 1989 and she came off of Tango. She should of managed to go platinum. Bad word of mouth and no singles killed it. RS suddenly gives Stevie one more good rating (TISL) AFTER THE DANCE. After Sheryl Crow, Coutney Love come out in her defense... Oh and by the way critic darling Sheryl Crown and John Shanks are producing the album. Bah.

Yeah, I have re-evaluated TOSOTM and it still sucks.

I have to debate how you're interpreting this though Jondalar. How do we know that TOSOTM, SA and TS weren't simply certified at that time? As you know, albums are only certified when a record company pays for them to be certified. They may have passed their respective sales plateaus prior to this and all just got certified post-Dance due to that's when Modern Records decided to certify them (and it was prior to Enchanted, so it could have been some pre-pub for that box set).

I don't have any proof of this. I'm only suggesting it as a possibility because if The Dance did spike Nicks sales then why weren't her better selling catalog albums Bella Donna and The Wild Heart also further certified after The Dance? Why would it have been her less well-known albums that got the sales spike? There was nothing to gravitate people towards those albums in particular.

I agree with you that TOSOTM sold slower than her previous 3 albums had. Actually every Nicks album sold slower than its predecessor until TISL. I also agree that TOSOTM only had 1 hit, but then again this was part of a general trend as well: BD had 2 top 10s, 1 top 20 and 1 top 40, TWH had 1 top 10, 1 top 20, and 1 top 40, RAL had 1 top 10 and 1 top 20, TOSOTM had 1 top 20, and SA didn't have any top 40 at all. Each album declined in album sales and each album sold less than the one before it.

[Jondalar]

I have to debate how you're interpreting this though Jondalar. How do we know that TOSOTM, SA and TS weren't simply certified at that time? As you know, albums are only certified when a record company pays for them to be certified. They may have passed their respective sales plateaus prior to this and all just got certified post-Dance due to that's when Modern Records decided to certify them (and it was prior to Enchanted, so it could have been some pre-pub for that box set).

I don't have any proof of this. I'm only suggesting it as a possibility because if The Dance did spike Nicks sales then why weren't her better selling catalog albums Bella Donna and The Wild Heart also further certified after The Dance? Why would it have been her less well-known albums that got the sales spike? There was nothing to gravitate people towards those albums in particular.

I agree with you that TOSOTM sold slower than her previous 3 albums had. Actually every Nicks album sold slower than its predecessor until TISL. I also agree that TOSOTM only had 1 hit, but then again this was part of a general trend as well: BD had 2 top 10s, 1 top 20 and 1 top 40, TWH had 1 top 10, 1 top 20, and 1 top 40, RAL had 1 top 10 and 1 top 20, TOSOTM had 1 top 20, and SA didn't have any top 40 at all. Each album declined in album sales and each album sold less than the one before it.

I just posted charts for you, and I don't know how I can make it any clearer. SA never even sold 500,000. Retailers bought it after the Dance which made it go gold in the hopes they would sale. Retailers trying to capitalize on The Dance really helped. The Wild Heart had just went double platinum in 1993 and it wasn't close enough to selling another million copies. Her album sold fewer copies becuase they were of less quality and yes, they had fewer hits. That's her fault.

[tabruns]

I just posted charts for you, and I don't know how I can make it any clearer. SA never even sold 500,000. Retailers bought it after the Dance which made it go gold in the hopes they would sale. Retailers trying to capitalize on The Dance really helped. The Wild Heart had just went double platinum in 1993 and it wasn't close enough to selling another million copies. Her album sold fewer copies becuase they were of less quality and yes, they had fewer hits. That's her fault.


Jondalar, you're just not going to be happy until we all say "yes TOSOTM sucks" and we're just not going to do that. :)

Its also potentially just the way a career goes. People get tired of you, you fade. And Nicks was in the public consciousness a LOT due to doing both Mac and her solo career.

I'm not arguing that all Nicks albums are equal quality. I don't think they are. But I also don't agree with your take on them. That's why this is a difference of opinion.

From my perspective Nicks had a great first album in Bella Donna, then three good albums that each had their own strengths and weaknesses and for me TOSOTM was better than TWH and RAL. Some people rave about TWH and others rave about RAL. It seems like the TWH-RAL-TOSOTM trio all have their passionate defenders.

I don't see TOSOTM as the career killer because her album sales were declining at the same rate prior to it. It's not like she was doing Platinum/Platinum/Platinum oops all of a sudden Gold. As her record exec said "Every album sold about half of the one before it." That to me indicates a fan base that's slowly moving away, not a fan base that all instantly turned on her all because of TOSOTM.

[Jondalar]

Jondalar, you're just not going to be happy until we all say "yes TOSOTM sucks" and we're just not going to do that. :)

Its also potentially just the way a career goes. People get tired of you, you fade. And Nicks was in the public consciousness a LOT due to doing both Mac and her solo career.

I'm not arguing that all Nicks albums are equal quality. I don't think they are. But I also don't agree with your take on them. That's why this is a difference of opinion.

From my perspective Nicks had a great first album in Bella Donna, then three good albums that each had their own strengths and weaknesses and for me TOSOTM was better than TWH and RAL. Some people rave about TWH and others rave about RAL. It seems like the TWH-RAL-TOSOTM trio all have their passionate defenders.

I don't see TOSOTM as the career killer because her album sales were declining at the same rate prior to it. It's not like she was doing Platinum/Platinum/Platinum oops all of a sudden Gold. As her record exec said "Every album sold about half of the one before it." That to me indicates a fan base that's slowly moving away, not a fan base that all instantly turned on her all because of TOSOTM.

Bella Donna was a classic and she won respect from people who did not want to like her. The Wild Heart had a huge hit with Stand Back and was pretty good also there was Mirage. However, she lost fans over it. RAL was a stinker, but she still had enough of a fanbase to get retailers to get it to platinum immediately. She needed a comeback in 1989. RAL left quite an impression with the record buying public. The Other Side of the Mirror made an even worse one, except it did give her one hit overseas. Wasn't the record buying public fault back then. It was the quality of her records. People want quality. Not self-indulgent lyrics, and bad production. She ruined the relationships to pull off good records and would not listen to the people who were trying to help her. After the Dance, people were clamoring to work with her. I could not believe in 2001 that TISL was all we got, but it was a big step up from SA.

As far as me bashing TOSOTM and some other albums, those people who bash this album or Bella Donna don't hesistate, so I'm not either.

[saintvox]

I love TOSTOTM, I'm surprised so many people dislike it.

For me, I started to like it when I went through a really crazy time, and the lyrics really started to make sense to me. Especially Alice. That song is really epic. So many people dislike the production but I don't have a problem with it, I think it's just fine.

To me, it's one of her better solo albums. I dislike Rock A Little because it just doesn't reverberate for me, and Bella Donna is only average in my eyes. So I guess it's to each his own.

[tabruns]

Bella Donna was a classic and she won respect from people who did not want to like her. The Wild Heart had a huge hit with Stand Back and was pretty good also there was Mirage. However, she lost fans over it. RAL was a stinker, but she still had enough of a fanbase to get retailers to get it to platinum immediately. She needed a comeback in 1989. RAL left quite an impression with the record buying public. The Other Side of the Mirror made an even worse one, except it did give her one hit overseas. Wasn't the record buying public fault back then. It was the quality of her records. People want quality. Not self-indulgent lyrics, and bad production. She ruined the relationships to pull off good records and would not listen to the people who were trying to help her. After the Dance, people were clamoring to work with her. I could not believe in 2001 that TISL was all we got, but it was a big step up from SA.

As far as me bashing TOSOTM and some other albums, those people who bash this album or Bella Donna don't hesistate, so I'm not either.

But again, you're equating "people" with YOU. You just can't seem to bring yourself to say that this is your take on her albums. You seem to want to have to prove that you're "right", when I really don't think you have to. You seriously dislike RAL and TOSOTM (and SA and TISL) but that's fine. It's your taste. Not everyone has to agree with you.

Like when you say "self indulgent lyrics" *I* immediately think of TWH's "Gate and Garden" and RAL's "The Nightmare" (and I *really* think of "Welcome to the room....Sara" but don't get me started). I don't think of TOSOTM.

As far as production goes, clearly this is a question of taste. Some people really dislike RAL and TOSOTM because of the slicker production but many others love those albums either in spite of or because of that production.

I'm not saying its the "fault" of fans that her records were selling less. I'm saying that that's just natural: people get tired of you and they move on, especially when you have success at a level that Nicks has had. People were slowly moving away from Nicks probably due somewhat to familiarity breeding contempt, probably somewhat due to that TWH, RAL and TOSOTM were all not up to BD standards, and probably somewhat due to her increasingly obvious drug addiction which was showing up during RAL and TOSOTM in her interviews and concerts.

[tabruns]

I love TOSTOTM, I'm surprised so many people dislike it.

For me, I started to like it when I went through a really crazy time, and the lyrics really started to make sense to me. Especially Alice. That song is really epic. So many people dislike the production but I don't have a problem with it, I think it's just fine.

To me, it's one of her better solo albums. I dislike Rock A Little because it just doesn't reverberate for me, and Bella Donna is only average in my eyes. So I guess it's to each his own.

Well my take on TOSOTM is very similar to yours, saintvox. I actually thought it was an improvement over TWH and RAL. I thought the songs were very dark and very reflective of her coming off her cocaine addiction. Certainly "long nets of white cloud my memory" refers to that, as does "Alice" and "Doing the Best that I Can". There's a real black magic vibe to the album that I just really love.

[Jondalar]

But again, you're equating "people" with YOU. You just can't seem to bring yourself to say that this is your take on her albums. You seem to want to have to prove that you're "right", when I really don't think you have to. You seriously dislike RAL and TOSOTM (and SA and TISL) but that's fine. It's your taste. Not everyone has to agree with you.

Like when you say "self indulgent lyrics" *I* immediately think of TWH's "Gate and Garden" and RAL's "The Nightmare" (and I *really* think of "Welcome to the room....Sara" but don't get me started). I don't think of TOSOTM.

As far as production goes, clearly this is a question of taste. Some people really dislike RAL and TOSOTM because of the slicker production but many others love those albums either in spite of or because of that production.

I'm not saying its the "fault" of fans that her records were selling less. I'm saying that that's just natural: people get tired of you and they move on, especially when you have success at a level that Nicks has had. People were slowly moving away from Nicks probably due somewhat to familiarity breeding contempt, probably somewhat due to that TWH, RAL and TOSOTM were all not up to BD standards, and probably somewhat due to her increasingly obvious drug addiction which was showing up during RAL and TOSOTM in her interviews and concerts.

She was a drug addict and it definitely came across. The quality of her music declined almost like the titanic. I mean RAL was a meltdown. You can listen to that record and it just reaks of cocaine. TOSOTM sounds like she stepped off the planet into another dimension full of synthesizers and little girl journal entries. After RAL and TOSOTM everyone said Stevie Nicks is only as good as the people she works with. They said that before, but she gave them the real ammo with those albums. Her songs got tinier and her voice, whether from cigarettes, or lack of trying just reaked.

[mylittledemon]

She was a drug addict and it definitely came across. The quality of her music declined almost like the titanic. I mean RAL was a meltdown. You can listen to that record and it just reaks of cocaine. TOSOTM sounds like she stepped off the planet into another dimension full of synthesizers and little girl journal entries. After RAL and TOSOTM everyone said Stevie Nicks is only as good as the people she works with. They said that before, but she gave them the real ammo with those albums. Her songs got tinier and her voice, whether from cigarettes, or lack of trying just reaked.

So what if RAL wreaks of coke? Stevie is still here today and has outlived that chapter in her life. I actually enjoy that record for the most part. You don't like RAL, that's fine... you don't like Other Side of the Mirror... that's also fine. But they are not throwaway records. Each one of her records has little gems that are begging to be rediscovered amidst all the 'crap' that surrounds it.

People said Stevie is only good as the people she works with? Sorry but I don't agree with that. Celine Dion is someone who's only as good as the people she works with.

[tabruns]

I mean RAL was a meltdown. You can listen to that record and it just reaks of cocaine. TOSOTM sounds like she stepped off the planet into another dimension full of synthesizers and little girl journal entries.

Okay I LOL'd at that. :) I still love TOSOTM though.

I think the reason why I like TOSOTM and parts of RAL and TWH is that she's still creative on those albums. It's only SA where I felt like her creativity was largely absent.

[Jondalar]

So what if RAL wreaks of coke? Stevie is still here today and has outlived that chapter in her life. I actually enjoy that record for the most part. You don't like RAL, that's fine... you don't like Other Side of the Mirror... that's also fine. But they are not throwaway records. Each one of her records has little gems that are begging to be rediscovered amidst all the 'crap' that surrounds it.

People said Stevie is only good as the people she works with? Sorry but I don't agree with that. Celine Dion is someone who's only as good as the people she works with.

No, you could combine RAL, OSOTM, SA and TISL into a pretty good record. There are treasures on each.

Celine wasn't trying to be a series songwriter. Stevie has always been held to a higher standard. Look at some of the negative reviews for IYD. Not quite fair.

[mylittledemon]

Celine wasn't trying to be a series songwriter. Stevie has always been held to a higher standard. Look at some of the negative reviews for IYD. Not quite fair.


People are always going to say good things and bad things. Their "professional reviews" will always be skewed by their opinions. A lot of people don't like Stevie, and a lot of people do. That's just how it is. It's like movie critics... they ruin a lot of the movie magic experience for me, so I try not to read or listen to them. The same with album reviews. I listen and decide for myself.

[tabruns]

People are always going to say good things and bad things. Their "professional reviews" will always be skewed by their opinions. A lot of people don't like Stevie, and a lot of people do. That's just how it is. It's like movie critics... they ruin a lot of the movie magic experience for me, so I try not to read or listen to them. The same with album reviews. I listen and decide for myself.

Critical reviews can be instructive if they're fairly written and by someone who isn't either a slavish fan or a hater. That's the issue.

Someone who just dislikes Nicks isn't going to give her album a fair hearing. The negative reviews that I've seen of IYD (and I've only seen two) both come across like nothing she does would make the reviewer happy, so that automatically makes the review worthless. A review that will never like what she does because its HER isn't going to be appeased no matter what. What I want is a review that intelligently considers the work on its own and within the context of what the artist is capable of.

[mylittledemon]

The negative reviews that I've seen of IYD (and I've only seen two) both come across like nothing she does would make the reviewer happy, so that automatically makes the review worthless.

Exactly! There are people that will never like her and that's the end of it for them.

[TheWILDheart]

Alright, fine, I'll say it.

Jondalar, shut up. You're going to have to accept that some of us love RAL, OSOTM and SA. Your opinion is not fact and low sales do not make any of us love an albm any less. You're clogging up the board by stating your opinion as fact and shoving it peoples faces. Just accept the fact that not everyone feels the same way you do.

Sorry to be so blunt folks, but its just ignorant, rude and I have no patience for this kind of attitude.

Lets not forget, Stevie has always said OSOTM is one of her favourites!

[Dodfather]

Reading through this thread it quickly became one of the most infuriating on here! I agree with later posters re. the forcefulness of some people's opinions, something that doesn't really contribute to discussion.

As for TOSOTM - I have a real soft spot for it! Always loved Rooms On Fire, Long Way To Go, Alice and Juliet. Controversially, I also quite like Fire Burning. On the whole I do think it's a very patchy album though.

I can't stand Two Kinds Of Love or I Still Miss Someone. Both tracks are, to me, examples of wasted potential. For the latter - Stevie can sing country well, I love some of her more country stuff, so she could have really scored with this but I think it just doesn't work with that production style. As for Two Kinds Of Love, I think Bruce Hornsby is brilliant so should love a duet between them but instead what could have been a brilliant collaboration was wasted on quite a dull song.

[mylittledemon]

Look - The great part about the Ledge is that we all have different opinions... and we can all value why one person feels one thing about a certain record, and why another person may not.

We're all apples and oranges... and a few bananas ;)... But we all love Stevie, and there's our common ground.

There's no reason to not remain civil to one another. Please, let's not bait one another.

[starshine]

Wow, what a thread!! Well, Mirror will always be special to 'me' because well its when I first started collecting Stevie & Mac stuff. It was a special time for me. I liked it much better than RAL. I think we like certian songs or LP's because of the 'time' in our own lives at that moment. Somethings clicks with a song or group of songs. Sure , with each solo Stevie LP I can pick away of what I'd like more or less of. Or I like her 'look' or 'voice/vocal' here better. I think its kinda a personal thing for each one of us as we expericence it. Like I've stated in many threads through the yrs here. We all love what we love and don't like what we don't like about Stevie/Mac and neither is right or wrong it just is. (Like everything in life you love/like etc). I don't 'love' all that Stevie /Mac have done through the yrs nor do I agree with every choice they've made for LP's etc. Sure mistakes were made and better choices probably could've been made. Life goes on. We all have flaws and probably wish we could have made better choices as well. So, we go on with the hopes that we have learned something and will make a better choice next time. I still love Stevie's music even if I don't love all thats been recorded etc---I'm still a fan. Anyway, Mirror will be special to me always. I do love BD/WH more but Mirror is next than probaly RAL than SA. :D:shrug:

[PenguinHead]

Wow! Discussion about this album has really sparked polarizing emotions! You're either on one side (of the mirror-I couldn't resist) or the other!

I don't think it's fair to dismiss a whole album as "garbage." As a dedicated fan, I will always sift through Stevie's garbage and find something redeemable. Even her most "questionable" songs have something to offer.

Granted, the production leaves a lot to be desired, and Stevie's state of mind at that time contributed to less that stellar results/and performances. It is what it is. The fact that it ellicits such intense love and hate says something about it. Art of any kind also gets these kind of subjective reactions. You either find something to value in it, or...want to throw it in the trash.

Despite the production, I really enjoy:

Rooms on Fire
Long Way to Go
Juliet
Doing the Best That I Can

Two Kinds of Love - Could have been a good song, but it's such an ill-conceive concept, and the lyrics and production suck. The only lines that have any concise value are: Who in the world do you think that you are fooling? Well, I've already done everything that you are doing!

Whole Lotta Trouble - This was a missed opportunity. Again, the lyrics and production suffer. Her live performances brought it down even further. The phrase: Would you change your mind at the very last minute? I think you should stop for a second and think for a moment" is good. But she could never remember it verbatim, and completely butchered it.

Fire Buring, Alice, and Ghosts are song that are uniquely Stevie.

Her two cover songs, Cry Wolf and I Still Miss Someone are passable, but very odd choices.

Real Tears should have never been regulated to a b-side! Too bad it wasn't included on the box set - it's an odd gem.

[tabruns]

Here you go:

The Other Side Of The Mirror is so under-rated, it's actually Stevie's best album ever. Discuss.

*ducks* :)

*runs away laughing maniacally*

[mikephxaz]

wow...after reading this thread I'm reminded of two important facts...First...I need to get a real life and Secondly...if Stevie Nicks ever reads this stuff she must be laughing her ass off!!:thumbsup:

[Supernaut]

TOSOTM has hands-down the slickest, most shimmering and fully realized vocal production/harmonics of any Stevie Nicks record. Wall-of-sound Stevie harmonics. GORGEOUS.

She's not in the best of voice on this record, but she could still vamp. Also, there is some pretty good songwriting, as people have pointed out: Juliet, Ooh, My Love, Doing The Best I Can, Long Way To Go, Rooms On Fire - often, much better (in my opinion) than much of Rock A Little and almost everything subsequent.

[Artemis]

I've been totally and completely obsessed with Doing The Best I Can, lately. And I'm quite tempted to check out the rest of the album because of that. I only have 4 other songs from TOSOTM in my main playlist. The responses in this thread have made for some very interesting reading - I LOVE all the different opinions! And they've made me determined to sit down and listen to the entire album from start to finish, once more. Normally, whenever I try, I just skip the crap I dislike. Buut, I reckon it might be worth a shot. Afterall, I did that with RAL and now I love it!

[tabruns]

I can see why people love The Wild Heart and Rock A Little but for me TOSOTM was actually a more focused, better album.

The Wild Heart has the brilliant "Stand Back" and some other moments of glory: "I Will Run To You", "Sable On Blond" (although I do have to ignore the line "in silence she says 'excaliber'"), the wonderfully rolicking "Enchanted" and the lovely "Beauty and the Beast".

"Nightbird" and "If Anyone Falls In Love" are good songs but I'm a bit thrown by the marriage of the heavy synthesizer riffs with the spacey lyrics. "Gate and Garden" has a catchy chorus but I can't get past some of the lyrics. "Wild Heart" is a meandering unfocused song, and "Nothing Ever Changes" is like a synthesizer version of "Listen to the Rain"...its lacking that Stevie magic.

Rock A Little initially got my attention because of the very different production style. I loved "Talk To Me". Other songs on the album that appealed to me were "Rock A Little", "I Sing For The Things" and "If I Were You". I didn't care for "No Spoken Word" at first but seeing how many other Nicks fans loved the track led me to reconsider it.

"I Can't Wait" was hurt for me by the simultaneous release of Nu Shooz's "I Can't Wait". The comparison made Stevie's song sound like it was trying to be hip and failing. "Has Anyone Ever Written..." just didn't ignite for me. Instead of being moving, it was slow and uninteresting. I couldn't stand "Sister Honey" at all, it immediately sounded gimmicky to me, I could tell "Imperial Hotel" was a good song but I just didn't care for it, "Some Become Strangers" I liked until I heard the Williams Brothers superior version, and "The Nightmare" was another meandering Stevie song.

In contrast I thought TOSOTM was an over-all stronger album. "Rooms On Fire" was and is one of my favorite Nicks songs ever. I like that the first single off the album was co-written by her. I liked "Long Way To Go" but was surprised it was a single. I liked "Two Kinds of Love" even though it was obviously very easy-listening and the lyrics are basically indecipherable. "Ooh My Love", "Ghosts" and "Whole Lotta Trouble" were all good songs, so for my money side 1 (this was back in the vinyl days) was the most solid Nicks string of songs since Bella Donna.

For side 2, I liked "Fire Burning" and "Cry Wolf" even though they didn't really seem to fit with the rest of the album. "Alice", "Juliet" and "Doing The Best That I Can" were great. "I Still Miss Someone" stuck out like a sore thumb as not fitting on the album even more than the first two songs on side 2.

Over-all there weren't any songs on TOSOTM that I just didn't like as there had been on TWH and RAL, I liked my favorite track on it more than any favorite tracks on the other Nicks albums, and that mystical Nicksian "witchy" vibe was all over the album. When it came out it ranked very close to Bella Donna to me.

[sara1998]

Alright, fine, I'll say it.

Jondalar, shut up. You're going to have to accept that some of us love RAL, OSOTM and SA. Your opinion is not fact and low sales do not make any of us love an albm any less. You're clogging up the board by stating your opinion as fact and shoving it peoples faces. Just accept the fact that not everyone feels the same way you do.
I'm standing and applauding. Thanks for that.

RAL is an okay album. Now days it's pretty dated. I guess TOSOTM is as well, but it's probably my favorite. I can't tell you why... maybe the whole notion of it being "concept" if you will, but I enjoy it.

That's all I have... No shoving of my opinion down anyone's throat... see how easy that was??

[StevieNicksfann]

I have said before that although I like Bella Donna a lot, I realize I am being blasphemous when I say that it is not the masterpiece most people seem to think it is. I think a lot of the halo effect happened because it was her first album and had hits on it ad established a benchmark to be compared to. I personally love Rock A Little and for the times, think it could have been a much bigger album had it been her first. No matter how strong an album is, it is "tougher" with each outing because you're not new anymore and the stakes are more elevated each time. With this in mind, OF COURSE each album will dip a little. It would have been different if Stevie were a new singer where you begin with a strong album and break out with one hit. Then the Rumours of this new singer's career comes and it becomes the sleeper hit and usually the next album becomes a monster. By the 4th album, it becomes difficult to truly maintain people's interest. Now add the changing of times, changing of music formats, how it is shared, the advent of MTV, how things are promoted, the tastes changing, the world changing, Live Aid, Just say no to drugs, etc... And with Stevie in particular, she was on Klonopin ffs. Of course her vocals were more effortful, she was ON DRUGS. Legal ones. But drugs nevertheless that altered her perception and as she describes it, robbed her soul.

And as I said already in the beginning of this thread, I think you listen to Long Way To Go and that has one of the best vocals she had had in a long time at that point. Two Kinds of Love is beautiful because of the end, and in that vein, the payoff makes the whole thing worth it. Whole Lotta Trouble or LWTG should have kicked off the album to keep her ensconced in the rock formats then the other songs could have followed.

And in terms of those other variables - I could care less when it was certified platinum or if it was at all. TISL has not been certified, who knows if IYD ever will and that does not translate to either of them being less viable albums. I don't care that Bella Donna sold the best. I do not think it's her best album but I don't want to mislead anyone either. I think ALL of her albums are almost equal except Street Angel. And I thought that before it tanked. In fact, People Magazine and others were giving Street Angel pretty good reviews at first which surprised me after they slammed OSOTM and I'm like wtf? I loved that album and hate SA. Yet sure enough in spite of the reviews, the fans clearly spoke their peace and did not buy it. And that's before the internet piracy thing.

Maybe it takes us being in a certain place in life because for me I can appreciate the genius that OSOTM is although not infallible either.

Regardless, I agree you can't arbitrarily call something that is so obviously subjective garbage. That honestly says a lot more about you than it does about Stevie's music.

[markolas]

After listening to the whole thing (as released, tyvm) a couple of times in the last few days, I'm reassessing this album. Actually, I think it's very good and I'd put it in a 2nd place tie with RAL for my favorite SN solo album. I still don't care for TKOL very much, but I can tolerate it. The other song I always said I didn't like, Cry Wolf, I have to say I like now quite a bit. It lends itself to the thematic darkness of the album really well, as does Doing the Best That I Can. And I've always thought I Still Miss Someone was a great way to close this album.

So, yeah. TOSOTM= :thumbsup:

[chiliD]

Ok, so, I'll be a bit early and give TOSOTM it's 20th annual run through* a bit earlier in the year than usual.

It's usually mid-summer when I give it it's annual play, but this thread has both "inspired" and "forced" me to move up the schedule a bit. :shrug:


*= When it first came out, I played it a LOT, I really WANTED to like it. But other than "Rooms On Fire", I just couldn't stand it, so I put it aside for a couple of years before starting on the "once a year trial run".

That said, (switching gears here a bit) this year, the chances for an "attitude flip" on TOSOTM has better odds than most prior years since I just got In Your Dreams yesterday (listened through about 5 straight times last night). Can't say it's her "Best Ever", but I'm liking just about every song...there's not one that jumped out at me that I must skip (there's always been at LEAST one per album of hers that after my initial few playthroughs, that I'm inclined to ignore from there on out...even TISL, which is my all-time fave Stevie Nicks solo album)

[tabruns]

Very interesting perspectives!

One thing I would say though steviefannn is that Trouble In Shangri-La did get certified for Gold. It probably would have gone Platinum if it weren't for tanking album sales.

If In Your Dreams goes Gold I think that would be the equivalent in today's market of Bella Donna going quadruple platinum. Sales are just that bad.

[StevieNicksfann]

Very interesting perspectives!

One thing I would say though steviefannn is that Trouble In Shangri-La did get certified for Gold. It probably would have gone Platinum if it weren't for tanking album sales.

If In Your Dreams goes Gold I think that would be the equivalent in today's market of Bella Donna going quadruple platinum. Sales are just that bad.

I agree with that for sure. Just fyi, when I said TISL wasn't certified, I was referring to platinum status - I do realize it has gone gold.

[J.Miller]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jm6RS4S-7io This was a very dark time for Stevie which at times made for great art. I much prefer the happiness that Stevie is going through now. And her art is better than ever.

[kak125]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jm6RS4S-7io

wow thanks for posting this video! its excellent and doing the best that i can is my favorite song from TOSOTM. love it!!!

[ahafan02]

I have listened to the album three times and many of the tracks aren't as bad as I once felt....

I'm starting to love Ghosts, Juliet and Fire Burning. I have always loved Rooms on Fire, Whole Lotta Trouble (remix), Ooh My Love, Alice and Doing the Best That I Can.

I still dislike Long Way To Go and Two Kinds of Love.....there's a good song somewhere in Long Way To Go but the song is overproduced and it sounds way to cluttered (if that makes sense). I Still Miss Someone and Cry Wolf are horrid remakes. No one can touch Laura Branigan's original version of "Cry Wolf". The song was just not meant for Stevie's voice. I really like Real Tears even though it's kind of a weird song. I also like Dial My Number (outtake)...to bad it wasn't fully realized.