Say You Will as a Stevie Solo Album ~ Works?

[mikebise]

I know there's been lots of discussion about Stevie's songs on Say You Will. See, to me, it's not a Fleetwood Mac album, but two solo albums featuring the same musical performers. Anyway, agree or not, that's the purpose of this thread, to discuss Stevie's Say You Will songs as a single piece of solo work.

Therefore, we get a 7th solo album from Stevie by 2003. Going by Trouble In Shangri-la's lead, Stevie has two songs from the 1970s ("Goodbye Baby", "Smile At You"), one from the 1980s ("Running Through The Garden"), four from the 1990s ("Not Make Believe", "Sweet Girl", "Thrown Down", "Everybody Finds Out") and four from the 200os ("Illume", "Say You Will", "Silver Girl", "Destiny Rules"). A nice mix from Stevie's career. BTW, ignore the slight crowd noise on "Sweet Girl" and accept it.

Here's a listing I've done for it, but I'd like to know how others have done it!

1. Say You Will
2. Illume
3. Smile At You
4. Running Through The Garden
5. Not Make Believe
6. Sweet Girl
7. Thrown Down
8. Silver Girl
9. Everybody Finds Out
10. Destiny Rules
11. Goodbye Baby

[David]

I think that would be quite good. It certainly hangs together & creates a more unified atmosphere & emotional palette.

It's Lindsey's material that largely disrupts it -- & not in the quirky, amusing way that we hear on Tusk. If Murrow & Come are jokes, they're terribly unfunny jokes. (In that sense, they remind me of That's How We Do It in L.A.)

Still, even creating a Nicks solo album out of her songs doesn't solve the whole problem. The entire Mark Needham contingent at the engineering board would have to be eliminated. They brought in nothing but Worst Practices & cauliflower ears.

See my blog for more examples of my Barzunesque writing.

[Jondalar]

I would combine TISL and Say You Will into one good rock record

1.TISL
2. Candlebright
3. Sorcerer
4. Planets
5. Say You Will
6. Everyday
7. Illume
8. Thrown Down
9. Destiny Rules
10. Smile at You
11. I Miss You Now
12. Everybody Finds Out

[cristochango]

I don't think I could see this as a solo album. I think it's just because I am so used to seeing it with Fleetwood Mac that I couldn't imagine it as a solo album. I mean, I love all the songs. But they would sound differently without the Mac, and I like them how they are :D

To me, there's a difference in her solo work and her Fleetwood Mac work, thematically, in what I hear.

Maybe I'm just weird? Does anyone else agree with the difference between the two?

[michelej1]

I think thematically Stevie's songs actually go together better on SYW than they would as a solo presentation.

Jondalar, your mix of TISL and SYW songs works better. Then again, once it won me over, I found TISL pretty perfect just as it is. I probably wouldn' t drop more than 2 songs from it. So, I don't have any ideas for playing with that too much.

Michele

[louielouie2000]

ITo me, there's a difference in her solo work and her Fleetwood Mac work, thematically, in what I hear.

Maybe I'm just weird? Does anyone else agree with the difference between the two?

I always have... and that's precisely why I've always been a Fleetwood Mac fan first and foremost. Good portions of Stevie's solo career are hard for me to stomach. Her sound is so much more classic in the Mac... whereas it's very poppy and 'of the moment' with her solo work.

[TheWILDheart]

I completely agree. SYW is a Lindsey solo album, and a Stevie solo album smushed together. Here is my Stevie solo version. I call it "Illume":

1. My Heart
2. Illume
3. Thrown Down (wall of sound mix)
4. Say You Will
5. If You Ever Did Believe
6. Crysal
7. Smile At You
8. Running Through The Garden
9. Silver Girl
10. Not Make Believe
11. Everybody Finds Out
12. Destiny Rules
13. Goodbye Baby

[CADreaming]

I don't see how SYW differs from the majority of FM albums in the sense of feeling "disconnected" - besides Christine being absent. Only the first two Mac albums gave off a true ensemble feel or were true band projects. I would like it if they could present an album to us in that way again, but I'm totally fine with getting the Stevie and/or Lindsey harmonies on the other's songs and the band playing on the songs in the same way they did with Tusk, Mirage, Tango, and Say You Will.

If you present Stevie's SYW songs as a solo album then you remove Lindsey, Mick and John and the songs would lose something vital, in my opinion.

[mitzo]

Stevie on SYW was her best effort since Tusk, I think. Really engaging songs sung and produced in a way that really compels. Restored my faith after TISL. Of course since then we've had an 8-year drought.

[mikebise]

Great to hear differing opinions!

BTW, I'm not saying for Stevie to re-record the 11 songs. Just slap all 11 on a CD and ask: does it work as an album? That's all.

For me, it does.

On the "Smile At You" thread, mitzo mentions Stevie's "Creepy" vocals on that song as very enticing. Well, I have to add Stevie's vocals on "Goodbye Baby" as totally creepy, in a good way! So bizarre, they sound like leftover vocals from a Rock A Little discarded track, all trembly and breathy. Also, Stevie really doesn't sing along with the music. I mean, I find it hard to sing along with her. I just sit and listen, entranced.

I also think Stevie translated the song well in the 2003-2004 concerts, keeping the "creepiness" intact.

[CADreaming]

Great to hear differing opinions!

BTW, I'm not saying for Stevie to re-record the 11 songs. Just slap all 11 on a CD and ask: does it work as an album? That's all.

For me, it does.



Oh, if you can keep LB's harmonies I'm cool with that! :D

[APerfectLie]

I know there's been lots of discussion about Stevie's songs on Say You Will. See, to me, it's not a Fleetwood Mac album, but two solo albums featuring the same musical performers. Anyway, agree or not, that's the purpose of this thread, to discuss Stevie's Say You Will songs as a single piece of solo work.

Therefore, we get a 7th solo album from Stevie by 2003. Going by Trouble In Shangri-la's lead, Stevie has two songs from the 1970s ("Goodbye Baby", "Smile At You"), one from the 1980s ("Running Through The Garden"), four from the 1990s ("Not Make Believe", "Sweet Girl", "Thrown Down", "Everybody Finds Out") and four from the 200os ("Illume", "Say You Will", "Silver Girl", "Destiny Rules"). A nice mix from Stevie's career. BTW, ignore the slight crowd noise on "Sweet Girl" and accept it.

Here's a listing I've done for it, but I'd like to know how others have done it!

1. Say You Will
2. Illume
3. Smile At You
4. Running Through The Garden
5. Not Make Believe
6. Sweet Girl
7. Thrown Down
8. Silver Girl
9. Everybody Finds Out
10. Destiny Rules
11. Goodbye Baby


Love it, but I say put the demo version of Sweet Girl on there. No crowd noise, and I always felt the demo was much better than the live version :) I also think My Heart should be in there somewhere, perhaps between EFO and DR.

[mikebise]

Ooh, but I loooovvvvvve when Stevie wails/growls:

"Weeelllllllllllllllllllll, come down here for a minute..." on the Live version!!!

Otherwise, yes, the demo is far superiour!

[Travis]

Hey Mike,

I too made my own CD (play list) back when the CD came out. Without analyzing every single detail as to why or why these songs wouldn't work as a Stevie solo album, here is my order.

STEVIE NICKS / DESTINY RULES
Thrown Down (Wall of Sound Mix)
Everybody Finds Out
Twisted (with Lindsey Buckingham)
Illume
Not Make Believe
Say You Will (Single Remix Fade)
Running Through The Garden
Smile At You
Silver Girl
Sweet Girl
Destiny Rules
Goodbye Baby
-
Thrown Down
Say You Will (Live @ AOL Sessions)

I didn't necessarily like having the titles Silver Girl and Sweet Girl back to back but I've always based the running order on how good the flow is. I thought about switching Twisted and Sweet Girl but I didn't like it, the order above is how I've listened to these songs all these years. It also makes the ones that I don’t care for as much a bit more listenable. I even had someone (and I'm blanking on who did these for me) create some artwork. Also, while I do prefer the version of “Thrown Down” that is on SYW, I like the intro to the “Wall Of Sound Mix” and thought it was a good opening track. I also prefer the single remix cold ending of SYW as opposed to the fade but the cold ending I would have made the single release. There is a method here.
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http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/1980/drcdfront3.jpg
http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/9167/drcdback3.jpg

[darklinensuit]

I don't see how SYW differs from the majority of FM albums in the sense of feeling "disconnected" - besides Christine being absent.

For me the reason it lacks Mac-ificity is that we don't hear each of them on the other's songs as much as we should. This is especially problematic on the Lindsey songs - at least on the Stevie songs, we hear Lindsey's recognizable guitar playing. But on a song like Murrow (which I like), for one example, Stevie needs to be heard in the chorus if it's a Mac album. JMO

- Jake

[mikebise]

Travis, I LOVE it!!!!

I was JUST outside walking my dog, wondering about making the CD and photos and all that, and there you have the PERFECT artwork already done!!!!!

Grooving to your tracking order!

[Travis]

Travis, I LOVE it!!!!

I was JUST outside walking my dog, wondering about making the CD and photos and all that, and there you have the PERFECT artwork already done!!!!!

Grooving to your tracking order!

Awww thanks Mike, that's nice of you. I think the artwork is decent, I have another friend that does a lot of my fliers for me that could probably do a much better one but it was nice of the person at the time to do it for me so, I still use them. Give my order a few tries and let me know how you like it.

[cristochango]

Great to hear differing opinions!

BTW, I'm not saying for Stevie to re-record the 11 songs. Just slap all 11 on a CD and ask: does it work as an album? That's all.

For me, it does.

On the "Smile At You" thread, mitzo mentions Stevie's "Creepy" vocals on that song as very enticing. Well, I have to add Stevie's vocals on "Goodbye Baby" as totally creepy, in a good way! So bizarre, they sound like leftover vocals from a Rock A Little discarded track, all trembly and breathy. Also, Stevie really doesn't sing along with the music. I mean, I find it hard to sing along with her. I just sit and listen, entranced.

I also think Stevie translated the song well in the 2003-2004 concerts, keeping the "creepiness" intact.

See, if you put all the songs on the listed on one album, as they were, it would do absolutely nothing for me.

To me it'd be a "I'm more into Stevie than Lindsey right now, especially the SYW era.." Playlist on my ipod.

To me, I feel like an album needs a premise behind it. The Stevie solo SYW would have absolutely no grounds for me. :/

(Not that I'm hating on your view, this is just what I think :) )

[Travis]

Mike,

Also, the Sweet Girl I use is the demo from Enchanted, not the live one.

[Christopher]

Almost as soon as SYW was released I sequenced just Stevie's songs to make another solo album representing the 10 songs that were released. Those 10 songs for me work well as a Stevie Nicks solo album.... that just happens to be produced by Lindsey with Mick and John in tow.:thumbsup:

Say You Will
Illume
Thrown Down
Smile At You
Not Make Believe
Destiny Rules
Silver Girl
Running Through The Garden
Everybody Finds Out
Goodbye Baby

Yes, It's been said over and over, but it's true. SYW was Lindsey's & Stevie's solo songs slapped together on one disjointed FM record. They fit better without each others.

[mikebise]

Well, after listening to your running order, Travis, it has replaced mine, I love it that much!!!! I did tweak it a bit ~ as we ALL do, right? ;)

The Trouble In Shangri-la version of "Thrown Down" belongs on Trouble In Shangri-la, for ME, so I left it there, and used the Say you Will version as the opener instead. I must say, it's given me a new appreciation for that version (I MUCH prefer the TISL version of "Thrown Down"). It's a very good opening.

I used the Cold Ending of the "Say You Will" Single Remix, 'cause "Running Through The Garden" just sounds KILLER after that! Finally, I wanted the album to have mostly the same musicians, so I still used the Live version of "Sweet Girl" (Special Guest Keyboards by Christine McVie! ;) ) .

STEVIE NICKS / DESTINY RULES
Thrown Down
Everybody Finds Out
Twisted
Illume
Not Make Believe
Say You Will (Single Remix Cold Ending)
Running Through The Garden
Smile At You
Silver Girl
Sweet Girl
Destiny Rules
Goodbye Baby

So, I tweaked it a little, but your running order really makes it flow like a real Stevie album!!!

[mikebise]

Those 10 songs for me work well as a Stevie Nicks solo album.... that just happens to be produced by Lindsey with Mick and John in tow.:thumbsup:
...

Yes, It's been said over and over, but it's true. SYW was Lindsey's & Stevie's solo songs slapped together on one disjointed FM record. They fit better without each others.

Quoted for :thumbsup: totally!!!! Two solo albums slapped together, indeed!

[Travis]

Hey Mike,

Ya know I actually agree that the single remix cold ending of SYW works better. I was playing around with each and I did like how it went right into RTTG, so I'll give you that one. I still think the "wall of sound mix" of Thrown Down is a better opening track. I didn't know that came from the TISL sessions, I just always read people calling it the "wall of sound mix", and I never knew what the heck that meant. I'll say this, with your tweaks (the album version of Thrown Down, cold ending of SYW and live version of Sweet Girl) it's basically a solo Stevie CD produced all by Lindsey so, in that sense it works. But for me, using the "wall of sound mix" of TD and the demo of Sweet Girl, (and not to mention Twisted) I feel it gives it more of a Stevie sound (just heavily outweighed by Lindsey). Blah blah blah ...

Glad you like the running order :)

[CADreaming]

For me the reason it lacks Mac-ificity is that we don't hear each of them on the other's songs as much as we should. This is especially problematic on the Lindsey songs - at least on the Stevie songs, we hear Lindsey's recognizable guitar playing. But on a song like Murrow (which I like), for one example, Stevie needs to be heard in the chorus if it's a Mac album. JMO

- Jake

Thanks, Jake. I guess I can see your point to an extent. But, there are so many songs where the three vocalists are not singing on the others songs. It might be interesting to list. Besides Lindsey's guitar and Christine's keyboards, there might be great solo packages for all of them.

[Jondalar]

Lindsey's songs would of made an excellent solo record. Stevie's, NO

[Travis]

Another thing I remembered this morning about making my running order was that I tried to sequence the songs with a similar feel as "The Other Side Of The Mirror."

Thrown Down (Wall of Sound Mix) / Rooms On Fire
Everybody Finds Out / Long Way To Go
Twisted / Two Kinds Of Love
Illume / Ooh My Love
Not Make Believe / Ghosts
Say You Will (Remix Cold) / Whole Lotta Trouble
-
Running Through The Garden / Fire Burning
Smile At You / Cry Wolf
Silver Girl / Alice
Sweet Girl / Juliet
Destiny Rules / Doing The Best I Can
Goodbye Baby / I Still Miss Someone

[holidayroad]

I don't see how SYW differs from the majority of FM albums in the sense of feeling "disconnected" - besides Christine being absent.



I agree with you. From Tusk forward, there wasn't a lot of unity within the albums. I think Christine being gone just made it more obvious.

[SapphireSister]

Say You Will
Illume
Thrown Down
Smile At You
Not Make Believe
Destiny Rules
Silver Girl
Running Through The Garden
Everybody Finds Out
Goodbye Baby

Yes, It's been said over and over, but it's true. SYW was Lindsey's & Stevie's solo songs slapped together on one disjointed FM record. They fit better without each others.

I agree with this statement but I'm glad they all came out on the same album because I happen to love 3 of Lindsey's songs and never would have listened to them if they were on a solo album (Murrow, Say Goodbye, Cum).
As for Stevie's songs, I think they're all superb with the exception of Silver Girl and RTTG and I love Lindsey's production. The only negative is Stevie's vocals on a few of them are slightly lack-luster but EFO is one of her most rockin' tracks and very under appreciated as far as I'm concerned. It's right up there with Fall From Grace. I adore Goodbye Baby live from the SYW tour and it holds special memories for me as well as the scene of the recording of it from the Destiny Rules DVD. God, now that I think about it, I love these songs and the album as a whole. Doesn't bother me a drop that Christine is not on there, more songs for Stevie!

[Artemis]

I do not get the hate for RTTG. At all.

She sounds more alive halfway through that song than she has for years. For me, RTTG, not Thrown Down, is THE standout song on SYW.

Although, the fabulous 80s demo is still... fabulous :laugh:

[CADreaming]

I agree with you. From Tusk forward, there wasn't a lot of unity within the albums. I think Christine being gone just made it more obvious.

True. :nod:

[sorcerer999]

I agree with this statement but I'm glad they all came out on the same album because I happen to love 3 of Lindsey's songs and never would have listened to them if they were on a solo album (Murrow, Say Goodbye, Cum).


Ummm...I think you might have misspelled that last song title...;)

[SapphireSister]

Ummm...I think you might have misspelled that last song title...;)

OMG, I swear, that was a Freudian slip! :sorry:

[markolas]

Where can I get ahold of an mp3 file of the SYW version of Not Make Believe? Not that I really like it, but still...

I haven't listened to SYW for a long time, but RTTG has been in heavy rotation on my iPod lately. Probably my favorite SN song on the album. Stevie's SYW material is not her strongest, IMO - for every RTTG or EFO, there's a boring SYW or Thrown Down.

[SapphireSister]

Where can I get ahold of an mp3 file of the SYW version of Not Make Believe? Not that I really like it, but still...


I'll post it if you say you really like it :p.

[markolas]

I'll post it if you say you really like it :p.

Well, I'd like it for completion's sake. :) I have the TISL demo, but not the SYW version.

[David]

For me, RTTG, not Thrown Down, is THE standout song on SYW.
Yeah, but I think her best one is "Destiny Rules." I think that is practically a classic.

[markolas]

I can't get past her vocal on Destiny Rules. Ugh. Everything else about it rocks, it just sounds like she had a clothespin on her nose when she was recording it.

[SapphireSister]

Well, I'd like it for completion's sake. :) I have the TISL demo, but not the SYW version.

Here you go...it's mp4 so I hope that's o.k. This version is SO MUCH better than the demo version from SYW which is like totally boring. This song has such a great feel to it and the production is great to me. Wish it had been included on the regular album and not as a bonus track :(. Let me know what you think!
http://www.mediafire.com/?0k5h38xdk2dj790

[SapphireSister]

I can't get past her vocal on Destiny Rules. Ugh. Everything else about it rocks, it just sounds like she had a clothespin on her nose when she was recording it.

She did...

[David]

I can't get past her vocal on Destiny Rules. Ugh. Everything else about it rocks, it just sounds like she had a clothespin on her nose when she was recording it.Yes, it's a pretty bizarre decision to emphasize her nasality with digital phasing or whatever those guys used. I have to force myself to get past those first few seconds when I listen to it.

I wish they had done it live when I last saw them in 2003 in Los Angeles. I might have woken up.

I have this weird theory that the production team on "Say You Will" is deliberately rubbing our noses in Stevie's deteriorating instrument (& Lindsey's too). Why? I don't know. It seems to be an artistic statement of some sort, maybe a kind of primitivism or something modeled on a 20th century art movement, where a distasteful aspect is amplified on the canvas to bring out its "beauty" or its coarse humanity.

I think it's a testament to the song's quality that it totally stands up to the miscalculations. It's the kind of strong song that can be sung around campfires or on American Idol shows. That chorus is catchy enough to get everyone singing.

[markolas]

Here you go...it's mp4 so I hope that's o.k. This version is SO MUCH better than the demo version from SYW which is like totally boring. This song has such a great feel to it and the production is great to me. Wish it had been included on the regular album and not as a bonus track :(. Let me know what you think!
http://www.mediafire.com/?0k5h38xdk2dj790

TYVM! Will give it a listen.

[michelej1]

OMG, I swear, that was a Freudian slip! :sorry:

But then again, it's what Lindsey intended.

Michele

[michelej1]

It seems to be an artistic statement of some sort, maybe a kind of primitivism or something modeled on a 20th century art movement, where a distasteful aspect is amplified on the canvas to bring out its "beauty" or its coarse humanity.


Which is the same thing I think Kristen was going for with her Gift of Screws cover art.

Michele

[mikebise]

I think Stevie's vocals on "Not Make Believe" are incredibly beautiful and touching. The first time I heard that on release date April 2003, I almost started crying, it touched me so. I think the lyrics are also some of Stevie's most introspective, along with "Love Changes". However, I did like that extra little line from the TISL demo:

"It's written on the wind
We're not make believing now..."

"Running Through The Garden" is another favourite of mine, totally wicked singing by Stevie. I wish she'd left the line from the Rock A Little version:

"Don't trust me!"

[Jondalar]

You know Stevie got flack for her bad vocals on that Taylor Swift duet, too. There were lots of people who called her a legend and said that Taylor ruined songs. But there were also plenty of people who noted how terrible Stevie sounded too. I'm hoping that that has made her try harder on the new album. No more Destiny Rules vocals, although it is one of my favorite songs from her off that CD.

[markolas]

I saw that Taylor Swift thing and thought "How is she famous?" She can't carry a tune in a fruit jar, if that performance was any indication.

[markolas]

I listened to Not Make Believe. The lyrics still drive me nuts, but LB did wonders with the song itself.

[WildHearted]

TBH I was so distracted by how awful Taylor sounded that I didn't even notice if Stevie sounded bad or good at the time..

I think her vocals have been sounding fine as of late, if live clips from Unleashed and Secret Love are any indication.