Danny Kirwan (Blog Critics.Org)

[michelej1]

Blog Critics.org by Michael Collins Morton, January 18, 2011

http://blogcritics.org/music/article/danny-kirwan-the-forgotten-man-of/


In the long and difficult history of Fleetwood Mac, a band whose many tribulations prove, beyond question, that truth is stranger than fiction, the sad fate of Danny Kirwan, the guitarist and songwriter who helped to create some of their finest music, usually is overlooked. The whereabouts and condition of Danny Kirwan, who was expelled from Fleetwood Mac in 1972, are currently unknown to the general public, but his special talent continues to be highly regarded by discerning fans.

Danny Kirwan was born in 1950, in London, England, and became a member of Fleetwood Mac in 1968, when he was in his late teens. With Danny Kirwan playing his guitar alongside the guitars of Peter Green and Jeremy Spencer, Fleetwood Mac soon became one of the standout bands in the United Kingdom, offering a trenchant form of electric blues that was both earthy and thoughtful. Then Play On, released by Fleetwood Mac in 1969, was the first of their albums to feature Danny Kirwan, and provides ample evidence of his strong abilities as a musician and a composer, particularly his gift for melody and harmony, on tracks such as “Coming Your Way” and “Although the Sun Is Shining.”

When Peter Green, who had been the main figure in Fleetwood Mac, became mentally ill and chose to leave the band in 1970, both Danny Kirwan and Jeremy Spencer were forced to the forefront as guitarists and singers. The next album by Fleetwood Mac, Kiln House, has a sound that is quite different from their earlier albums, but it proved that the band could continue without Peter Green. Among its ten tracks, it features two songs written by Danny Kirwan, “Earl Grey” and “Tell Me All the Things You Do,” as well as two other songs, “Station Man” and “Jewel Eyed Judy,” written by Danny Kirwan with members of the band.


In February of 1971, while Fleetwood Mac was on tour in California, Jeremy Spencer departed from the band without warning and joined a Christian colony known as the Children of God, forcing Danny Kirwan even more to the forefront. Bob Welch, an American guitarist and songwriter, was quickly brought into the band, and in September, 1971, they released a new album, Future Games. The first track on Future Games, “Woman of 1000 Years,” a song written and sung by Danny Kirwan, shows his musical skill at its best, conveying an otherworldly mood with delicate layers of guitars and voices. “Sands of Time,” another song by Danny Kirwan, also has a dreamlike texture. His other song on the album, “Sometimes,” is a tuneful expression of regret, sung with sweetness and melancholy.

Bare Trees was released in 1972, and was the last album by Fleetwood Mac to include the songs and musicianship of Danny Kirwan. His five songs on Bare Trees display an undeniable degree of depth and maturity, making up the core of the album. “Child of Mine” and “Bare Trees” are driving rockers with solid riffs. “Sunny Side of Heaven” is a wordless composition that floats along on shimmery waves of graceful beauty. “Danny’s Chant” is a bold workout for guitar and wah-wah, combined with a free-form vocal. “Dust” is a plaintive setting of a poem by Rupert Brooke. It appeared that Danny Kirwan’s ability to write and perform music was gaining in strength, but in his private life, he had begun to fall apart.

The reasons for the decline and breakdown of Danny Kirwan are not entirely clear, but by all accounts, he never had been an easygoing or well-balanced person. His withdrawn temperament was ill-suited to the harsh obligations of fame and business, which frequently is the case with talented people. In addition, he was known to be drinking heavily, and his excessive consumption of alcohol undoubtedly had a harmful effect on his situation.


Danny Kirwan’s tenure with Fleetwood Mac came to a sudden end in August of 1972, during a tour of America. Minutes before a performance, he got into a backstage quarrel with Bob Welch, becoming extremely angry and refusing to play with the band. (He supposedly smashed his own head against a wall and broke his electric guitar into pieces.) Fleetwood Mac went on stage without him, and later that night, Mick Fleetwood dismissed him from the band.

Danny Kirwan went on to record several albums on his own (Second Chapter, Midnight in San Juan, Hello There Big Boy!), but he rarely performed in public after leaving Fleetwood Mac, and his albums mostly came and went without much notice. It seems that by the end of the 1970s, he had ceased to pursue any musical activities. Since then, there have been reports that he was living on the streets in London, completely overcome by alcoholism, as well as later reports that he was living in a shelter for homeless people. What is known for certain is that Danny Kirwan’s problems undermined his life and prevented his talent from reaching its full potential.

Fleetwood Mac carried on to become one of the biggest bands of the 1970s and 1980s, but the name of Danny Kirwan, the sensitive guitarist who gave a great deal of himself to their music before he went by the wayside, generally is accorded no more than a brief reference in their well-known story. As a singular musician whose contributions to the band were unquestionably impressive, he is deserving of a kinder estimation.

[peer_gynt10]

Fleetwood Mac carried on to become one of the biggest bands of the 1970s and 1980s, but the name of Danny Kirwan, the sensitive guitarist who gave a great deal of himself to their music before he went by the wayside, generally is accorded no more than a brief reference in their well-known story. As a singular musician whose contributions to the band were unquestionably impressive, he is deserving of a kinder estimation.

Thank you for posting this! I couldn't agree more with that last statement. Contemporary critics always obsess with the "original" FM that inluded Green and Spencer. But when it comes to songwriting and pushing the band forward, Kirwan's contributions were much more significant than Spencer's (who of course was a great performer on stage and therefore should not be underestimated either).

[P90pup]

When Danny joined the group, he brought the pop sensi bility to the band that made them more than a blues band.
Bare Trees and Kiln House remain 2 of my favorite Mac albums. I was fortunate to be
able to see the band in New Orleans in 70. Danny was(is) a vital part of the sum that is
Fleetwood Mac.
Tom

[Wouter Vuijk]

Blog Critics.org by Michael Collins Morton, January 18, 2011
When Peter Green, who had been the main figure in Fleetwood Mac, became mentally ill and chose to leave the band in 1970, .......


This is how misinterpretations enter.... As far as I know, Peter chose to leave Fleetwood Mac because he sensed that his musical direction should lead him away from FM. Mental illness became a problem later on in his life.
Well, ehm, that's how I interpret the history.

[doodyhead]

Wouter,

you are absolutely right,

but you would have to sell that theory to Johm M because he still believes that the drug party in the munich castle is what sent him into mental illness and away from fleetwood mac. Peter was playing The green Manalishi and Man of the world six months before he left the band.
but never let the truth get in the way of a good story


vinnie c

[dino]

Wouter,

you are absolutely right,

but you would have to sell that theory to Johm M because he still believes that the drug party in the munich castle is what sent him into mental illness and away from fleetwood mac. Peter was playing The green Manalishi and Man of the world six months before he left the band.
but never let the truth get in the way of a good story


vinnie c



It could also be argued that mr McVie and mr Fleetwood were more interested in dollars than ground-breaking music, exit Green.

[aleuzzi]

This is how misinterpretations enter.... As far as I know, Peter chose to leave Fleetwood Mac because he sensed that his musical direction should lead him away from FM. Mental illness became a problem later on in his life.
Well, ehm, that's how I interpret the history.

While his mental illness did become more prominent later in the 70s, Mick, John and--to some degree--Chris have claimed that his God quest and disdain for financial gain was symptomatic of a decline in his mental health as early as the late 60s. Many journalists have argued the same.

And let's not forget the cheese-in-the-hair story Bob Welch has told a few times, from the Penguin sessions in 1973, only two-and-a-half years after leaving the band.

It's true, Green's musical direction did change rapidly upon leaving the band, a sign that he wanted to branch out and do more adventurous things but there's no conclusive proof McVie and Fleetwood wouldn't have gone along with it. The Madge Jams were a significant departure for the band when they appeared on Then Play On--though they were performed with gusto.

[dino]

While his mental illness did become more prominent later in the 70s, Mick, John and--to some degree--Chris have claimed that his God quest and disdain for financial gain was symptomatic of a decline in his mental health as early as the late 60s. Many journalists have argued the same.

And let's not forget the cheese-in-the-hair story Bob Welch has told a few times, from the Penguin sessions in 1973, only two-and-a-half years after leaving the band.

It's true, Green's musical direction did change rapidly upon leaving the band, a sign that he wanted to branch out and do more adventurous things but there's no conclusive proof McVie and Fleetwood wouldn't have gone along with it. The Madge Jams were a significant departure for the band when they appeared on Then Play On--though they were performed with gusto.


Well the belief that "disdain for financial gain" was a sure sign of mental illness says it all really :shocked:. Green has always denied he wanted to give all his money away; maybe it was more of an early Live Aid thing - give away the surplus to charity.

Besides, money and fame brings a lot of things with it - sycophants, stress, legal troubles etc etc and few people it seems are capable of dealing with this lifestyle.

[greenmanastrat]

When Danny joined the group, he brought the pop sensi bility to the band that made them more than a blues band.
Bare Trees and Kiln House remain 2 of my favorite Mac albums. I was fortunate to be
able to see the band in New Orleans in 70. Danny was(is) a vital part of the sum that is
Fleetwood Mac.
Tom


Couldnt agree more i would like to add future games, to those two albums you mentioned which i think is a great album!

Rencently got hold of The second chapter by Danny. Hmm now im really struggling to compliment it in anyway other than it has a high standard of musicianship really. Maybe i'll get into it with time i hope.

Would have been good if danny and jeremy could have worked more together kiln house has some gems would have like to have seen that partnership develop.

[PenguinHead]

I love and appreciate everything that Danny brought to Fleetwood Mac. He was a very talented guitar player. I especially love all his songs on Kiln House, Future Games, and Bare Trees. It's a shame his mind robbed him of his capability to continue in the music field. It's sad his life took such a tragic turn.

[slipkid]

While his mental illness did become more prominent later in the 70s, Mick, John and--to some degree--Chris have claimed that his God quest and disdain for financial gain was symptomatic of a decline in his mental health as early as the late 60s. Many journalists have argued the same.

And let's not forget the cheese-in-the-hair story Bob Welch has told a few times, from the Penguin sessions in 1973, only two-and-a-half years after leaving the band.

It's true, Green's musical direction did change rapidly upon leaving the band, a sign that he wanted to branch out and do more adventurous things but there's no conclusive proof McVie and Fleetwood wouldn't have gone along with it. The Madge Jams were a significant departure for the band when they appeared on Then Play On--though they were performed with gusto.

Wouldn't "Albatross" be seen as a departure a year earlier? Peter Green's music was evolving faster than the Beatles "middle period".

I'm in the Vinnie/Wouter/Dino camp concerning Peter Green. I think John McVie, and Mick use Munich to provide an excuse as to why Peter Green left FM. The truth is he told Gary Moore as early as sometime in 1969 that he wanted out of the band. Not only that, if Green was as mentally disturbed as those two claim, why was he able to come back a year later to replace Jeremy Spencer for a U.S. tour? I'm sure the truth is somewhere in the middle. It took Peter Green a few more years to smash car windows with crowbars compared to Moby Grape's Skip Spence, who had a psychotic breakdown in New York (while on tour with MB) chasing people with a fire-ax.


I wish that weren't the case as I feel a mentally healthy Danny Kirwan, and Peter Green would've made Fleetwood Mac a monster ROCK band compared to the version that eventually turned out. There is no doubt Danny Kirwan added a new, and positive dimension/direction. I'm also a huge fan of the material Kirwan wrote on Kiln/Future/Bare Trees. I don't see a conflict with those Kirwan songs in a hypothetical Peter Green FM post May 1970.

[doodyhead]

Dear Folks,

In this age of recognizing mental health issues there is a lot of knowns and unknowns.

For one thing there is a lot of cases where the symptoms of bi polar disorders and schizophrenia onsets in people in their late 20's. Who knows for real when it really happened for Peter.
What I do know is every time I see a Peter Green documentary when they start talking about it they show that same video clip of him sitting in the back seat of a car making faces. Is making faces to a camera a sure sign of craziness? Uh OH. We must all be crazy.

The cheese in the beard thing. I know far too many people from that time period that were not the most clean people in their personal appearance. I had an uncle like that who was a professor. Was he crazy?

I think Bob Welch had an axe to grind regarding this. For one thing he appears to be a real neat freak in his appearance, and two Bob came in after two great guitarists left . MIck and John seemed to be in mourning for a long time. Mick always said that whenever he needed a lift he would play some rare Peter Green recordings. I wonder how many times Bob heard that and said... "what am I, chopped liver" or Who Him? the guy with the cheese in his beard?"

I'm just saying.....

[wetcamelfood]

Dear Folks,

In this age of recognizing mental health issues there is a lot of knowns and unknowns.

For one thing there is a lot of cases where the symptoms of bi polar disorders and schizophrenia onsets in people in their late 20's. Who knows for real when it really happened for Peter.
What I do know is every time I see a Peter Green documentary when they start talking about it they show that same video clip of him sitting in the back seat of a car making faces. Is making faces to a camera a sure sign of craziness? Uh OH. We must all be crazy.

The cheese in the beard thing. I know far too many people from that time period that were not the most clean people in their personal appearance. I had an uncle like that who was a professor. Was he crazy?

I think Bob Welch had an axe to grind regarding this. For one thing he appears to be a real neat freak in his appearance, and two Bob came in after two great guitarists left . MIck and John seemed to be in mourning for a long time. Mick always said that whenever he needed a lift he would play some rare Peter Green recordings. I wonder how many times Bob heard that and said... "what am I, chopped liver" or Who Him? the guy with the cheese in his beard?"

I'm just saying.....

I agree. Though I'm sure Munich didn't help, it can't be the "be all end all" like the docs make it out. As if everything was so peachy, then Munich, now all the sudden it's "that's it I'm outta here" & Mick saying "what happened to Peter?" and like doody says they're clever the way they make those docs as if footage of PG making faces in a car (which seem to date from well before this time period) is supposed to be "evidence" he's not right etc. Not to mention Mick seems to enjoy doing all the phony parts of the interview, blowing up stories so they come out as more dramatic than they probably were. OK we weren't there we don't know what happened but we shouldn't just drink the kool aid they feed us either. They're bound to have all done things we agree and disagree with at some point or another so all these "legends" are probably in the middle somewhere. I try to just concentrate on the music & ignore this stuff, not saying others in this thread don't, just wanted to agree with this post is all. :)

John

[Ms Moose]

Dear Folks,

In this age of recognizing mental health issues there is a lot of knowns and unknowns.

For one thing there is a lot of cases where the symptoms of bi polar disorders and schizophrenia onsets in people in their late 20's. Who knows for real when it really happened for Peter.
What I do know is every time I see a Peter Green documentary when they start talking about it they show that same video clip of him sitting in the back seat of a car making faces. Is making faces to a camera a sure sign of craziness? Uh OH. We must all be crazy.

The cheese in the beard thing. I know far too many people from that time period that were not the most clean people in their personal appearance. I had an uncle like that who was a professor. Was he crazy?

I think Bob Welch had an axe to grind regarding this. For one thing he appears to be a real neat freak in his appearance, and two Bob came in after two great guitarists left . MIck and John seemed to be in mourning for a long time. Mick always said that whenever he needed a lift he would play some rare Peter Green recordings. I wonder how many times Bob heard that and said... "what am I, chopped liver" or Who Him? the guy with the cheese in his beard?"

I'm just saying.....

I agree with Doodyhead and wetcamelfood.

The filmclip mentioned also have John McVie and Danny sitting in the back of the car (John in the front as far as I remember) - and they are all pulling faces! Judging from John's Konfucius moustace, the clip is from the summer of 1969.

I suppose people who make documentaries want to tell stories, and sometimes the stories aren't well-researched. And if you base your "docu" on a myth you find that bit of film that will enhance that story. At least Martin Celmins took the air out of myth of the Instant Munich Mental Breakdown, but it was still pushed in the Man of The World documentary, despite Celmins participation and Mike Dodd's research!

I think PG had cheese in his hair....I mean that is not a catagory in the Diagnostical and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders as far as I know.

A very primitive way of explaining complicated relationships is by focusing on a certain event that "explains everything". Like John McVie is doing in the MOTW documentary (and a lot of other people). No one in the group knew what was going on with PG at the time and noone was able to help him. Then it is handy to blame PG's departure on something else (Acid-binge, brainwashing, commune and so on).

Groups break up all the time and it was crazy times then....

Ms Moose:angel:

[sharksfan2000]

The Munich story is always good for some conjecture - the myth is so prominent in the band's history that it's impossible to ignore. Of course it makes for a wonderfully sensational story that is probably much more interesting than the truth behind it. My thoughts have been consistent with John, Vinnie, and Ms. Moose, that it was probably not the catalyst for such a sudden transformation in Peter Green as what has usually been portrayed. Of course I was not there either, and none of us except Peter know just what his state of mind was during that period - and he may no longer recall that so clearly anymore himself.

The band members at that point were all very young, and I doubt that they had any experience in dealing with mental health issues of the type that would strike Peter. And I'm sure they were having such a good time in the band that it would have been easy to overlook the onset of such issues, which may have started prior to the Munich visit. I suspect that most of us, had we been in their shoes, might well have seen things in the same way.

So when Peter finally told the band he was quitting immediately after the Munich stay, it would have been easy for them to blame what may have seemed like a sudden change of heart on what happened there. In retrospect, it seems very likely that Peter had wanted to leave the band for some time at that point - signs of him wanting to leave at an earlier date are contained in Celmins' writing and elsewhere - but his finally making the decision and telling the band may still have come as a shock to them.

But the stories of Peter wanting to give away large sums of money to charity certainly predate Munich, his musical style had been changing for some time already (and there's no dramatic change that can be noticed in the shows performed immediately before and after the Munich date), and from what I've read, his behavior had already displayed the impact of the stress that must have come with the constant demands of touring and of producing more hit records.

It's certainly possible that what happened in Munich may have given Peter the resolve to finally make that decision to leave, but we'll probably never know. But here's a thought that I'm not sure I've seen expressed elsewhere - having made that decision, Peter may well have changed how he dealt with the other band members, the media, etc. It must have seemed a huge weight off his shoulders, and it would not be surprising if that alone would alter his behavior. He may not have felt the same sense of responsibility or comradery toward his bandmates and others that he had felt before. If that was the case, I can understand how the other band members could have seen Munich as being the cause of the dramatic and sudden change in his behavior that is so often described, since Peter's decision to leave came immediately afterwards. It may have had less to do with his mental health or with LSD and more with how he may have suddenly felt himself to be separate from those around him in the band, knowing that he was about to move on. I don't know whether that was really the case, but it seems a reasonable conjecture given what we do know.

I'm far from an expert in mental health issues, and have little idea of just when they began to affect Peter. Perhaps the onset of his problems was quite sudden, but I think it's very possible that it may have just seemed that way to those around him.

[dansven]

Peter jammed with some local guys in the basement of that Munich mansion. The music was new and fresh, and it thrilled Peter. Next Fleetwood Mac gig Peter thought his own playing was superb, but Mick told him he sounded as if he was mad.

I think the only way the "Munich incident" contributed to Peter leaving, was that it strengthened the feeling that he and the rest of the band were going in different musical directions. Besides, they were just young lads ... as we develope and mature we realize that we differ in personalities and interests. I think they were growing apart, rather than together (if that makes sense).

McVie's "Trauma city" story is a nice myth, but probably nothing more than that. What really thrills me about the whole story is: WHERE IS THE DAMN TAPE?!?!? :laugh:

[slipkid]

The Munich story is always good for some conjecture - the myth is so prominent in the band's history that it's impossible to ignore. Of course it makes for a wonderfully sensational story that is probably much more interesting than the truth behind it. My thoughts have been consistent with John, Vinnie, and Ms. Moose, that it was probably not the catalyst for such a sudden transformation in Peter Green as what has usually been portrayed. Of course I was not there either, and none of us except Peter know just what his state of mind was during that period - and he may no longer recall that so clearly anymore himself.

The band members at that point were all very young, and I doubt that they had any experience in dealing with mental health issues of the type that would strike Peter. And I'm sure they were having such a good time in the band that it would have been easy to overlook the onset of such issues, which may have started prior to the Munich visit. I suspect that most of us, had we been in their shoes, might well have seen things in the same way.

So when Peter finally told the band he was quitting immediately after the Munich stay, it would have been easy for them to blame what may have seemed like a sudden change of heart on what happened there. In retrospect, it seems very likely that Peter had wanted to leave the band for some time at that point - signs of him wanting to leave at an earlier date are contained in Celmins' writing and elsewhere - but his finally making the decision and telling the band may still have come as a shock to them.

But the stories of Peter wanting to give away large sums of money to charity certainly predate Munich, his musical style had been changing for some time already (and there's no dramatic change that can be noticed in the shows performed immediately before and after the Munich date), and from what I've read, his behavior had already displayed the impact of the stress that must have come with the constant demands of touring and of producing more hit records.

It's certainly possible that what happened in Munich may have given Peter the resolve to finally make that decision to leave, but we'll probably never know. But here's a thought that I'm not sure I've seen expressed elsewhere - having made that decision, Peter may well have changed how he dealt with the other band members, the media, etc. It must have seemed a huge weight off his shoulders, and it would not be surprising if that alone would alter his behavior. He may not have felt the same sense of responsibility or comradery toward his bandmates and others that he had felt before. If that was the case, I can understand how the other band members could have seen Munich as being the cause of the dramatic and sudden change in his behavior that is so often described, since Peter's decision to leave came immediately afterwards. It may have had less to do with his mental health or with LSD and more with how he may have suddenly felt himself to be separate from those around him in the band, knowing that he was about to move on. I don't know whether that was really the case, but it seems a reasonable conjecture given what we do know.

I'm far from an expert in mental health issues, and have little idea of just when they began to affect Peter. Perhaps the onset of his problems was quite sudden, but I think it's very possible that it may have just seemed that way to those around him.

I think what angered John McVie the most was the last FM concert with PG at a festival 5/70. The rest of the band is very emotional knowing it's the end, while Peter acts indifferent. Is that a sign of mental illness, or a burden about to be lifted? Of course the last concert ends with someone cutting the power, leaving only Mick Fleetwood to play his drums for a while.

Peter personally felt betrayed by the rejection of his ideas, which fifteen years later would have him nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize (Live Aid; Bob Geldof). If I'm 23 years old, was considered the leader/driving force of a potentially great rock band only to be told "NO" for my ideas, I would be extremely angry. While Mick Fleetwood has settled his differences with Green back in the 70's, John McVie never came around.

[slipkid]

Peter jammed with some local guys in the basement of that Munich mansion. The music was new and fresh, and it thrilled Peter. Next Fleetwood Mac gig Peter thought his own playing was superb, but Mick told him he sounded as if he was mad.


What was the next gig? I want tapes!!!

It's all about the Wah pedal. Peter Green became obsessed with it after Munich. He tried to use it at every opportunity. Yet he didn't use for those great slow blues songs. Only Hendrix could match what Peter Green was doing with that device at the time. I've heard all of the experimental late 1970 Jimi Hendrix outtakes. "End Of The Game" is on another level. If you listen to that album today, it's makes sense. Forty years ago, they would've tested your sanity, and they did. Yet it's not insane music.

[dansven]

What was the next gig? I want tapes!!!

:D I was referring to the tape made in the basement with the people on the Munich house. I've heard ex-wife Jane has it. But yeah, I would like to have a tape of the gig Fleetwood Mac played next too!!!

[slipkid]

:D I was referring to the tape made in the basement with the people on the Munich house. I've heard ex-wife Jane has it. But yeah, I would like to have a tape of the gig Fleetwood Mac played next too!!!

Peter Green wants those Munich tapes as well. Concerning Jane Samuels, I don't think it's going to happen. As of 1999 Peter Green had yet to meet his daughter at the age of 21. I'm sure that whatever happened to cause this rift, it's probably best not discussed.

[dino]

What was the next gig? I want tapes!!!

It's all about the Wah pedal. Peter Green became obsessed with it after Munich. He tried to use it at every opportunity. Yet he didn't use for those great slow blues songs. Only Hendrix could match what Peter Green was doing with that device at the time. I've heard all of the experimental late 1970 Jimi Hendrix outtakes. "End Of The Game" is on another level. If you listen to that album today, it's makes sense. Forty years ago, they would've tested your sanity, and they did. Yet it's not insane music.

That's going too far, sorry. First, Jimi Hendrix was dead in "late 1970" (September) and his mastery of the wah wah pedal is unbeatable. Greeny did use the effect too much, like a new toy.

[slipkid]

That's going too far, sorry. First, Jimi Hendrix was dead in "late 1970" (September) and his mastery of the wah wah pedal is unbeatable. Greeny did use the effect too much, like a new toy.

Jimi Hendrix was still alive when Peter Green recorded "End of the Game" in early/mid summer 1970.

Well at least I now know where you stand. If you listen to the album (EoTG), there is a song that sounds like it's from Miles Davis' "Bitches Brew".

The Roundhouse late April 1970 solo of "Black Magic Woman" is pure wah pedal perfection. It's beyond Beck, and Clapton at the time. The only other guitarist was Hendrix.


Let's also not forget the "Underway" breaks in the Rattlesnake Shake jams, or the "Sugar Mama" from Amsterdam 4/69. He was the only British guitarist who didn't fear Jimi Hendrix because he could play with him, and he did on at least a couple of meetings.

[dino]

Jimi Hendrix was still alive when Peter Green recorded "End of the Game" in early/mid summer 1970.

Well at least I now know where you stand. If you listen to the album (EoTG), there is a song that sounds like it's from Miles Davis' "Bitches Brew".

The Roundhouse late April 1970 solo of "Black Magic Woman" is pure wah pedal perfection. It's beyond Beck, and Clapton at the time. The only other guitarist was Hendrix.


Let's also not forget the "Underway" breaks in the Rattlesnake Shake jams, or the "Sugar Mama" from Amsterdam 4/69. He was the only British guitarist who didn't fear Jimi Hendrix because he could play with him, and he did on at least a couple of meetings.

Oh, that's a bit silly. I am a huge long term-fan and collector of both Greeny, Jimi and Miles Davis! :wavey: So my opinion is at least as valid as yours.

Would agree that the only competition at the time was Hendrix. But he jammed with Clapton, Jeff Beck and Green in New York during 1968, so your statement is a bit off. Peter on Jimi:

"RN: Did you meet Jimi Hendrix?
PG: Yes, I bumped into him.
RN: Did you ever play with him, jam with him?
PG: Yes, twice. Once he took over from me in the Speakeasy; I was jamming with Eric Burdon and some other people. There was an interesting atmosphere around Jimi Hendrix. Very Hard to discern briefly.
RN: Did you like his playing?
PG: Not particularly, No.
RN: Why? Was it too loud? Too fast?
PG: Too ahead of itself. If you didn't see that or you weren't prepared for it. it could take you surprise."

[doodyhead]

Oh, that's a bit silly. I am a huge long term-fan and collector of both Greeny, Jimi and Miles Davis! :wavey: So my opinion is at least as valid as yours.

Would agree that the only competition at the time was Hendrix. But he jammed with Clapton, Jeff Beck and Green in New York during 1968, so your statement is a bit off. Peter on Jimi:

"RN: Did you meet Jimi Hendrix?
PG: Yes, I bumped into him.
RN: Did you ever play with him, jam with him?
PG: Yes, twice. Once he took over from me in the Speakeasy; I was jamming with Eric Burdon and some other people. There was an interesting atmosphere around Jimi Hendrix. Very Hard to discern briefly.
RN: Did you like his playing?
PG: Not particularly, No.
RN: Why? Was it too loud? Too fast?
PG: Too ahead of itself. If you didn't see that or you weren't prepared for it. it could take you surprise."
What these statements tell me is that both players had very definite ideas about how and what to play and when to play it. In all likelihood there is respect in there somewhere. I really don't know about Hendrix but I never got the sense of him being into headcutting and one upsmanship. Jimi seems to sense the flow of the music and reshapes it into what he think is t is and pushes it into directions and other directions and possibilities, sort of an active role like a composer. Peter seems to play to the song and to the movement of the band at the moment. What I hear is recognition of different approaches to the same input.
Many guitar players at various points in their life have acted like gunslingers seeing who is better. Fans like to rate things too.
In my opinion (back to the original thread) in the short period that Peter played with a Wah Wah pedal, got very,very very good at using it. and of course like all of us. I would love to have heard what he sounded like in the early 7o's but I suspect that he just did not play as much as his life began to redirect. and of course Jimi Hendrix did not get any better either.

doodyhead

[dansven]

Peter did some tasty wah-wah on Toe Fat's "There'll Be Canges Made".
And he actually did some on wah-wah in the last years with Splinter Group too.

[dino]

Peter did some tasty wah-wah on Toe Fat's "There'll Be Canges Made".
And he actually did some on wah-wah in the last years with Splinter Group too.

Yes, that's a good track! And the Memphis Slim album.

Overall IMHO it's useless to argue about which players are "best". Green and Hendrix had rather different approaches, both neither was into "cutting contests" and there surely was mutual admiration there.

[Ms Moose]

That's going too far, sorry. First, Jimi Hendrix was dead in "late 1970" (September) and his mastery of the wah wah pedal is unbeatable. Greeny did use the effect too much, like a new toy.

(Unfortunately I don't know how to multi-quote):

...but it is very interesting to follow this discussion about the wah-wah. I never liked the sound of it no matter who played it - not even our hero :shrug:

But I suppose it's a matter of ears or taste?

On the matter of "who is best" I agree with you dino, but leaving out "the cutting contests" would also mean less heated discussions on The Ledge. Maybe instead of discussing "who is best" we should describe what it is we like about Hendrix, Green or whoever...? There is a world of difference in the playing and both is magnificent in different ways.

Ms Moose :angel:

[dino]

(Unfortunately I don't know how to multi-quote):

...but it is very interesting to follow this discussion about the wah-wah. I never liked the sound of it no matter who played it - not even our hero :shrug:

But I suppose it's a matter of ears or taste?

On the matter of "who is best" I agree with you dino, but leaving out "the cutting contests" would also mean less heated discussions on The Ledge. Maybe instead of discussing "who is best" we should describe what it is we like about Hendrix, Green or whoever...? There is a world of difference in the playing and both is magnificent in different ways.

Ms Moose :angel:

You're very perceptive, Ms Moose.

With Hendrix I like the free-flowing imagination, the extreme pushing of boundaries, the ability to play whatever genre of music, the way the guitar sounds like a human voice.

With Greeny I like the beautiful tone, the incredible taste and restraint, the purity of expression.

And then both had great voices and wrote cool songs. Not many musicians have that combination. Not Clapton, not Beck.

Does anyone have another particular favorite player?

[GJK]

Does anyone have another particular favorite player?

Duane Allman.

[dansven]

With Hendrix I like the free-flowing imagination, the extreme pushing of boundaries, the ability to play whatever genre of music, the way the guitar sounds like a human voice.

With Greeny I like the beautiful tone, the incredible taste and restraint, the purity of expression.

Hahaha yes, I feel exactly the same! :nod:

Does anyone have another particular favorite player
Several good guitar players, some because of their technique, others because of what/how they play. B.B King in the 60s. Snowy White is superb. Charlie Sexton in Dylan's band. Willie Nelson's later stuff is uneven but charming. George Harrison's solo slide playing is tasty. Jerry Garcia. Freddy King. Muddy Waters, simple but good. Blind Willie Johnson. Django. Jeff Beck, Ronnie Wood, Joe Perry...

Anyway, I think none of them have Peter's feeling and taste or Jimi's imagination. Not even close.. :shrug:

[chiliD]

Does anyone have another particular favorite player?

Duane Allman.

:thumbsup: Oh, yeah, definitely "Skydog". And, his old foil, Dickey Betts.

And, of the current crop, Derek Trucks. Not only is he a slide wizard, he can play equally as well with fingers, and he is also adept on sitar & sarod. He doesn't sing, so his total soul comes through his guitar playing.

I'm not as dismissive of Clapton as dino seems to be...Eric plays & sings from his soul, as well. (and his singing gets better every album, IMO)

OH...and let's not forget who this thread is SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT..


DANNY KIRWAN!!!!

(yet another Kirwan thread hijacked by Peter Green discussion)

[Wouter Vuijk]

Does anyone have another particular favorite player?

Sure do.....Paul Kossoff, but that's for his guitar playing, not for his singing. Same goes for Snowy White and Les Harvey (Stone The Crows). And of course all the magnificent old blues legends (not the modern white bluesrock heroes!!!!).

[slipkid]

Yes, that's a good track! And the Memphis Slim album.

Overall IMHO it's useless to argue about which players are "best". Green and Hendrix had rather different approaches, both neither was into "cutting contests" and there surely was mutual admiration there.

Actually Peter Green was not afraid to "jam" with anyone, nor was Hendrix. I'm sure you've heard the Peter Green banter at the Boston Tea Party 2/70 about English guitarists who are too afraid to show their chops against one-another, just before Joe Walsh plays with FM for a "jam"? Peter Green certainly had no problems playing with Duane Allman, he jammed with him after leaving FM in 11/70.

If you listen to the tapes (Grateful Dead/Allman Brothers/ certain FM members), from the Fillmore East 2/11/70, Owsley Stanley (Bear) cuts out Peter Green on many occasions to make Jerry Garcia sound like he was there. If you really hear the Dark Star-Spanish Jam-Turn On Your Lovelight jam, it became a Duane Allman/Peter Green jam. Yet if you hear how Bear mixed the recording, he gave Duane Allman the advantage.

[dino]

Actually Peter Green was not afraid to "jam" with anyone, nor was Hendrix. I'm sure you've heard the Peter Green banter at the Boston Tea Party 2/70 about English guitarists who are too afraid to show their chops against one-another, just before Joe Walsh plays with FM for a "jam"? Peter Green certainly had no problems playing with Duane Allman, he jammed with him after leaving FM in 11/70.

If you listen to the tapes (Grateful Dead/Allman Brothers/ certain FM members), from the Fillmore East 2/11/70, Owsley Stanley (Bear) cuts out Peter Green on many occasions to make Jerry Garcia sound like he was there. If you really hear the Dark Star-Spanish Jam-Turn On Your Lovelight jam, it became a Duane Allman/Peter Green jam. Yet if you hear how Bear mixed the recording, he gave Duane Allman the advantage.

Can't see that anyone has claimed he was :shrug:.
Hendrix loved to jam with anyone. He would have jammed with a tap dancer given the chance.

Yes, that Grateful Dead jam is disappointing.

[dansven]

Actually, Peter said during his time with Splinter Group that jamming with Clapton in the early days was a bit nerve wrecking.
Still, in general I think he was very into jamming. But that kind of musical socializing depends on who get together. The same way we get along differently with different people.