WAS SAY YOU WILL A BOMB? Please Read

[David A]

Was SYW a bomb?

It’s something I have been pondering for some time. I am usually all about numbers, and it’s hard for me to admit, but I think SYW sales wise may be a bomb. Here is the thing, I have always been able to make arguments with people about sales, etc. and say “well, it didn’t sell” etc. , and usually FM I don’t need to defend it much, but I have to say, SYW has not even gone platinum, and its hard if someone said it WAS a bomb to defend it. The only argument I can see that is valid is that it did DEBUT at #3 on the Charts which is impressive, but then it fell off quickly and had no legs. The Eagles new album is what I think SYW could have been SALES WISE I mean, where it debuts high on the charts (which it did) but had legs and stayed on the charts and sold XXX million copies. The Eagles new album I THINK has sold 2-4 million copies and I just wish SYW could have said the same. I tend to bash the POST LB FM albums like Behind The Mask, but you know what, sadly, and I DON’T Know it is a fact, but I think BTM may have sold almost or more than SYW which is pretty sad, because in my opinion, BTM is total crap and a complete embarrassment, where as SYW is a pretty good record.

The point of this thread, was SYW a bomb? And I am talking pure sales, I mean, going INTO SYW, FM Was considered a solid bet to sell, look at the Dance and even the Best OF as example, but it seems that SYW was just a total bomb, and I hope that FM don’t end up having to play local fairs like Hall & Oates, Rick Springfield (even though his last album did real well) or Styx.

But, usually weak sales are the 1st sign that maybe their ABILITY to sell records has gone down.

I love FM, but the sales of SYW always leave me feeling sad

[mylittledemon]

It depends on how you define success. Buckingham himself always uses this argument. "Tusk" was a bomb compared to say, Rumours wasn't it? But that doesn't mean it was a sh*t record. I am disappointed in general with Say You Will, but I do love some of the songs on the record. It could've sold another half a million copies but... would that make the material any better? Would that have made the band get back into the studio faster to make another album? I doubt it.

[elle]

others on this board know the numbers, including the money put in and money got out of syw much better than i do, but i'll try to give you what i know:

it opened at #3, and went gold. by now it probably sold close to a million copies, but i don't think it was ever officially certified platinum. that's not bad, but after watching DR doc, i suspect the band and the label expected more. of course this is the time when the music industry is/has been in flux, but... there were always probably just a few bands/artists having huge sales, and if you look that's the case now too. again, i know nothing about music industry and how it operates, others on this board have much more knowledge and info.

also, i agree with mylittledemon - would the quality of the album be any better if it sold more? no. but i wouldn't mind hearing songs like come, red rover, and murrow on the classic rock radio - which would be a possibility, maybe, if the album sold better.

EDIT: btw, why are you yelling?

[louielouie2000]

Say You Will debuted at #3 on the album charts here in the US, and sold about 800,000 copies to the best of my knowledge. Reprise/Warner expected the album to sell 2-3 Million by their own admission. At one point in the Destiny Rules documentary, Lindsey said he "didn't care if the album sold only 800,000 copies" if he could make the kind of album he wanted to make. So to me that says that 800,000 copies is a dismal failure to him.

I'd guess that the sales of SYW were viewed as a failure to those in Fleetwood Mac, and to Warner/Reprise as well. Not only that, Lindsey, Stevie, and Mick have all voiced that they weren't happy with the finished product of the album, either. Mick and Lindsey have referred to it as disjointed; Stevie's railed against Lindsey's production; they've all pointed at a need for an outside producer if another Mac album were ever to be made.

So the question is, was the album a bomb? I view a bomb to be a dismal failure, which SYW and it's tour really weren't. The album made Gold, nearly Platinum status, and it had some downright progressive material on it. The tour was 18 months long, and pretty darn successful. But was the album a flop? I'd have to say so. It barely got any radio play, it sank off the charts very quickly, received mixed reviews from critics, and is at best a footnote in Mac history.

[Silver Springs]

I'm probably going to be the naive and non materialistic voice "of the fan" here. But to me, music is never a bomb as long as it reaches people. It doesn't matter how many, but as long as there's somebody who is being affected for the better by the music, the lyrics, whatever. At the end of the day, music in its root form wasn't about sales figures or money made. It was about telling a story, reaching hearts. And in that sense, Say You Will could never be a failure. Speaking on a personal level, it was my gateway album. And I would probably have lost interest in my only greatest hits album if I hadn't have gotten my hands on this album when I did and realised how much the band has to offer. If you single each song out, then they work. They're beautifully crafted, lyrically sublime and works of art in their own right. Maybe they don't work together as a whole, but you don't listen to the album as a whole, do you? You listen to each song individually and come to your own judgements, so why judge how it was put together and how disjointed it is so harshly?

My heart was affected for the better by this album, so it was a success. It reached somebody. That was the point.

[Artemis]

I'd say to the casual observer that it wasn't a bomb. It hit #3 in the US and it hit the top ten in the UK (at least according to Wikipedia :laugh:) for a band in it's late 50s, having lost it's strongest singer (Christine) and having two singers with voices not what they once were, it's quite an achievement.

[SuperFleetwood]

yeah what bee said! I also had to add that I really like running threw the gardens and destiny rule and even thrown down!!!!! but for some reason I wasnt really getting intill murrow turnes in his grave its kind of a weird song, and the chorus is kinda confusing! but that's what I think! so to put my story in conclusion, it was a bomb! that was the second album that I got of the mac, before I went crazy and collecting stuff!

I'm probably going to be the naive and non materialistic voice "of the fan" here. But to me, music is never a bomb as long as it reaches people. It doesn't matter how many, but as long as there's somebody who is being affected for the better by the music, the lyrics, whatever. At the end of the day, music in its root form wasn't about sales figures or money made. It was about telling a story, reaching hearts. And in that sense, Say You Will could never be a failure. Speaking on a personal level, it was my gateway album. And I would probably have lost interest in my only greatest hits album if I hadn't have gotten my hands on this album when I did and realised how much the band has to offer. If you single each song out, then they work. They're beautifully crafted, lyrically sublime and works of art in their own right. Maybe they don't work together as a whole, but you don't listen to the album as a whole, do you? You listen to each song individually and come to your own judgements, so why judge how it was put together and how disjointed it is so harshly?

My heart was affected for the better by this album, so it was a success. It reached somebody. That was the point.

[elle]

Lindsey, Stevie, and Mick have all voiced that they weren't happy with the finished product of the album, either. Mick and Lindsey have referred to it as disjointed; Stevie's railed against Lindsey's production; they've all pointed at a need for an outside producer if another Mac album were ever to be made.material on it. The tour was 18 months long, and pretty darn successful.
however, in the same breath Lindsey said that who cares if SYW was disjointed, Tusk was too, and that he considers Tusk his favorite FM album. if it was up to Lindsey i get a feeling he would not go with an outside producer, but he said over and over that at this point it's more of a question of a band politics (i think this really means that Stevie would never do it if they didn't have outside producer). imho, i think they need some balance musically and not just for the sake of the band politics, so if they pick a producer who can bring them that plus fit with both L and S, it will work better.

It barely got any radio play, it sank off the charts very quickly, received mixed reviews from critics, and is at best a footnote in Mac history.
see i don't think that will necessarily be the case. this sounds like something that may have been said for a Tusk album at the time it was out, and now Tusk keeps getting mentioned everywhere as the album that showcases the mac as cool and weird, instead of just mega-selling band that doesn't have much artistically to offer. i think SYW has some great songs (mostly lindsey's) that will stand the test of time when someone looks over FM legacy.

[elle]

I'm probably going to be the naive and non materialistic voice "of the fan" here. But to me, music is never a bomb as long as it reaches people. ...
My heart was affected for the better by this album, so it was a success. It reached somebody. That was the point.

Nicely said!

[MacShadowsBall]

My two cents...

Say You Will w/o Christine = not good

Band members should not be "producing" their albums.

[David]

see i don't think that will necessarily be the case. this sounds like something that may have been said for a Tusk album at the time it was out, and now Tusk keeps getting mentioned everywhere as the album that showcases the mac as cool and weird, instead of just mega-selling band that doesn't have much artistically to offer. i think SYW has some great songs (mostly lindsey's) that will stand the test of time when someone looks over FM legacy.
I guess that's possible, elle. Tusk, after all, did grow in stature & appeal through the years. Say You Will might do that, too.

[Villavic]

Say You Will debuted at #3 on the album charts here in the US,.

I guess any Fleetwood Mac album would debut at top ten chart because it is Fleetwood Mac, a legend band. Although the era of million records sales is gone, it was a good beginning.

But it didn't turn into a blockbuster because, ironic.. it's Fleetwood Mac. I mean it's a 70s/80s band. In this decade of Beyonce, Eminem, etc.. hard for a legend band. Stevie explains it very good when they were discussing about releasing a double cd album in the Destiny Rules video.

[OutsideTheRain]

I think the problems with the current lineup is just isn't commercially viable enough to sell those kind of numbers. Christine had the most commercial success in the band.
I feel the album would have done better if they had convinced Christine to come in and do keyboards and backing vocals. Not necessarily have her writing and touring, but can you imagine a song like Thrown Down, Say You Will or Peacekeeper with her contributions!?!? Would have been huge.

[HomerMcvie]

But it didn't turn into a blockbuster because, ironic.. it's Fleetwood Mac. I mean it's a 70s/80s band. In this decade of Beyonce, Eminem, etc.. hard for a legend band. Stevie explains it very good when they were discussing about releasing a double cd album in the Destiny Rules video.Tell that to the Eagles...they showed FM, who was what.

[Phoenix]

Tell that to the Eagles...they showed FM, who was what.

Were the eagles doing the Straight-to-walmart-release? that has really worked to their advantage. FM needed to use Thrown Down as the lead single.Period. not Peace keeper (bwa ba ba bwa bwa bwa) It was at a time when people were being obnoxious about ANYONE using the word "peace", it meant you were against the war which for a while was a bit taboo. now it would be fine. i remember comments on aol musics first listen people were like "take your PEACE somewhere else." which is dumb, cause the lyrics are actually "take no prisoners only kill":laugh:

[sjpdg]

Was "SYW" a bomb? I don't think so. Million album sales for a 70/80's band (as the B/N incarnation of FM is) don't happen often. Material is an issue. A "double" CD was certainly ambitious and an interesting idea, but over all, I would agree with the band, that it was somewhat disjointed. There are tracks that are clearly Lindsey solo material and tracks that are clearly Stevie solo material. They don't meld into the "FM" that us fans are used to, even with Stevie and Lindsey at the forefront. Christine is definitely a missing element and any contributions she did make prior to the albums release should have been played up, not down. There is an alternate version of "Steal Your Heart Away" where you definitely hear Christine more than on the CD version. Why not play that up to the fan base? "She's not touring with us, but she layed down some great tracks for the album!" would definitely have been a selling point, yes? I mean, I bought it anyway, but had there been more Christine heard, perhaps even some tracks where she sang lead, (and had it not been a "double" album) the album would have sold better, I'd almost guarantee it.

Honestly, there are times I think the band was just over-reaching in an attempt to make up for Christine not recording or touring on "SYW". Overall, it's not a horrible album. It's no "Penguin" (IMHO the absolute worst FM album ever!!), that's for sure!!

As Lindsey has mentioned numerous times, "Rumours" was a 'moment'. It happened, they achieved unbelievable success from it, but it may never happen again. What is important now is, does FM still produce music that its fan base likes, appreciates and buys? I would say the answer is "Yes!"

[HomerMcvie]

Were the eagles doing the Straight-to-walmart-release? that has really worked to their advantage. FM needed to use Thrown Down as the lead single.Period. not Peace keeper (bwa ba ba bwa bwa bwa) It was at a time when people were being obnoxious about ANYONE using the word "peace", it meant you were against the war which for a while was a bit taboo.

Whatever. Marketing, is ALL that music is, now. The Eagles kicked FM's ass to the curb, marketing wise. And doesn't Irving, represent Stevie(or the whole band, .....I couldn't care less, at this point in their oldie's act)? WHO THE F*CK is marketing FM?
Someone, as always, is dropping the ball, in the FM camp.

All the "war" crap argument, sounds like lame excuses, for an album that was too short on good material, and waaaaay too long, on substandard material. Way too long, period.
A FM song, taboo? Really? EXCUSES, IMO.
Flip em over....JMHO.

[louielouie2000]

Honestly, there are times I think the band was just over-reaching in an attempt to make up for Christine not recording or touring on "SYW". Overall, it's not a horrible album. It's no "Penguin" (IMHO the absolute worst FM album ever!!), that's for sure!!

I've never really thought about it in that manner, but you're pretty spot on with that observation. At the time, I was extraordinarily excited to see what Buckingham and Nicks would sound like within the confines of Fleetwood Mac without Christine's very pedestrian pop influence. What ended up happening was akin to 2 siblings being left at home alone for the first time while the overbearing mother runs her errands :laugh:. Stevie and Lindsey were running around screaming at the top of their lungs, pulling each others pig tails and pushing each other down the stairs :p. I believe it was Stevie who long said that Christine is/was the glue of Fleetwood Mac. And that comment finally made sense to me following SYW. She was the bridging factor between the very manic Buckingham and Nicks. Not only did she make them behave, but there was a middle ground commonality factor in her music.

I am often very hard on SYW, but I feel it necessary to reiterate I think it has some fantastic music on it. I think Stevie's songs such as Illume and Destiny Rules were her best Mac contributions since Gypsy. I think Lindsey's envelope pushing songs like Murrow and Red Rover are positively brilliant. In many ways, some of the tracks on SYW still sound very progressive today. You can't say the same about songs from Stevie's Trouble In Shangri La, for instance (which sounds very dated to me now). My biggest gripe with SYW was it needed to be pared down. There was such a breadth and amount of material that the album just came across as a giant hot mess of battling egos. There was no balancing factor with Christine... who in my opinion bridged Stevie and Lindsey on Tusk, which is often compared to SYW.




PS: I have to disagree with you about Penguin! Yes, it had two of the most giant stinkers in Mac history: I'm A Roadrunner and The Derelict, but it also had some truly stellar Christine McVie contributions :nod:.

[louielouie2000]

FM needed to use Thrown Down as the lead single.Period. not Peace keeper (bwa ba ba bwa bwa bwa) It was at a time when people were being obnoxious about ANYONE using the word "peace", it meant you were against the war which for a while was a bit taboo. now it would be fine. i remember comments on aol musics first listen people were like "take your PEACE somewhere else." which is dumb, cause the lyrics are actually "take no prisoners only kill":laugh:

I definitely agree that Peacekeeper was a disastrous choice for lead single. That whole chicken noise was embarrassing to listen to even as a hardcore Mac fan. And you couldn't be more right about what people thought the motives were behind the song. Peace was a very, very dirty word in '03. Use it, and you were called an un-American Commie Hippie Liberal Flag Burning Faggot. Have we all forgotten how when France refused to be involved in the Iraq invasion that Americans retaliated and started calling French Fries "Freedom Fries" etc? :rolleyes: What an effing maddening mob-mentality time in history. I do disagree about Thrown Down being a good single, though. I heard it on the radio a couple of times and it just didn't sound good coming out of the speakers. What Fleetwood Mac needed for their lead single was something easily accessible, politically neutral, and instantly recognizable as Fleetwood Mac: Destiny Rules.

I don't know if the whole Wal Mart thing would work for the Mac like it did the Eagles, either. The Eagles are viewed as American as Apple Pie. So is Wal Mart. Fleetwood Mac is not now, nor has ever been, viewed as American or patriotic. The Eagles had such a giant success because they were both of those things, and to boot they have a country flair to their sound. This past decade has been a total renaissance in country and country tinged music. It's suddenly very hot. I'm guessing because Country is a very textbook American genre, and it's a back to roots SUPPORT WAR LIKE TOBY KEITH sign of patriotism. Even freaking Bon Jovi did a country tinged album this past decade, to great success. Fleetwood Mac and especially SYW are about as country as Tupac :laugh:.

I think we can definitely agree though, that Warner Bros does no favors to Fleetwood Mac or it's various solo artists anymore. I feel they half @ss market the band at best, and are very staid and unimaginative in their approach. Yes, the Wal Mart thing was a home run for the Eagles. But what would work best for Fleetwood Mac? I'm not sure. Perhaps they're more of a Target kinda league :p.

[HejiraNYC]

I definitely agree that Peacekeeper was a disastrous choice for lead single. That whole chicken noise was embarrassing to listen to even as a hardcore Mac fan. And you couldn't be more right about what people thought the motives were behind the song. Peace was a very, very dirty word in '03. Use it, and you were called an un-American Commie Hippie Liberal Flag Burning Faggot. Have we all forgotten how when France refused to be involved in the Iraq invasion that Americans retaliated and started calling French Fries "Freedom Fries" etc? :rolleyes: What an effing maddening mob-mentality time in history. I do disagree about Thrown Down being a good single, though. I heard it on the radio a couple of times and it just didn't sound good coming out of the speakers. What Fleetwood Mac needed for their lead single was something easily accessible, politically neutral, and instantly recognizable as Fleetwood Mac: Destiny Rules.

I don't know if the whole Wal Mart thing would work for the Mac like it did the Eagles, either. The Eagles are viewed as American as Apple Pie. So is Wal Mart. Fleetwood Mac is not now, nor has ever been, viewed as American or patriotic. The Eagles had such a giant success because they were both of those things, and to boot they have a country flair to their sound. This past decade has been a total renaissance in country and country tinged music. It's suddenly very hot. I'm guessing because Country is a very textbook American genre, and it's a back to roots SUPPORT WAR LIKE TOBY KEITH sign of patriotism. Even freaking Bon Jovi did a country tinged album this past decade, to great success. Fleetwood Mac and especially SYW are about as country as Tupac :laugh:.

I think we can definitely agree though, that Warner Bros does no favors to Fleetwood Mac or it's various solo artists anymore. I feel they half @ss market the band at best, and are very staid and unimaginative in their approach. Yes, the Wal Mart thing was a home run for the Eagles. But what would work best for Fleetwood Mac? I'm not sure. Perhaps they're more of a Target kinda league :p.

Indeed, if you are not a rap/hip-hop/dance/pop artist today, you pretty much have to decide whether or not you want to sell albums. Country music seems to appeal to that strange demographic that actually still buys physical CDs. What a concept, eh? Buying CDs?!! Who would have thunk that Darius "Blowfish" Rucker would have made this unbelievably successful comeback as a country singer?

But I think it's not just country music, per se. I think it's about appealing to Middle America in general- flyover country. And Wal Mart truly is the most enduring Middle American icon of them all. The Eagles hit paydirt by country-frying some songs AND teaming up with Wal Mart. But what about AC/DC? Their last album Black Ice was also a Wal Mart exclusive, and I believe it was their best selling album ever. Accordingly, I do believe that if FM records an album with a country radio-friendly lead single and signs on to a distribution deal with Wal Mart, it will most assuredly go multi-platinum, especially if they stunt price it at, say, $8.99. I'm sure Stevie has another "That's Alright" or "After the Glitter Fades" sitting in the vault somewhere. :lol: I'm sure Lindsey could pick up the pedal steel in no time!

[TrueFaith77]

So much to respond to I don't know where to begin. Great reading, though.

Say You Will should have been a full-out double CD containing most of, if not all, of Gift of Screws and however much more Stevie could have been added (do we know of anything other than Not Make Believe?). I think then it could have been experienced coherently as the adventure it is intended to be. I could care less about sales, btw. Though, as far as marketing goes, even Peacekeeper might have been a solid lead single IF it had featured a kick-butt music video.

As for country-fying their sound... I wouldn't mind. But, of course, I still think the best thing that could happen to Fleetwood Mac would be to bring Iris Dement into the fold.

ETA: I still go on record as considering Say You Will, as it is, the best American album of the 00s.

[Villavic]

...Peacekeeper might have been a solid lead single IF it had featured a kick-butt music video..

Really? I thought the era of videos was gone. I mean, I feel the videos does not impact or influence on songs success as in the 80s and early 90s.

[HejiraNYC]

Really? I thought the era of videos was gone. I mean, I feel the videos does not impact or influence on songs success as in the 80s and early 90s.

Music videos kind of died in the early 00's, but now I hear that videos are back in a big way again thanks to Lady Gaga and A-list celebrity cameos. It's all about cycles, don't ya know. :p

[elle]

What ended up happening was akin to 2 siblings being left at home alone for the first time while the overbearing mother runs her errands :laugh:. Stevie and Lindsey were running around screaming at the top of their lungs, pulling each others pig tails and pushing each other down the stairs :p. I believe it was Stevie who long said that Christine is/was the glue of Fleetwood Mac. And that comment finally made sense to me following SYW. She was the bridging factor between the very manic Buckingham and Nicks. Not only did she make them behave, but there was a middle ground commonality factor in her music.

I am often very hard on SYW, but I feel it necessary to reiterate I think it has some fantastic music on it. I think Stevie's songs such as Illume and Destiny Rules were her best Mac contributions since Gypsy. I think Lindsey's envelope pushing songs like Murrow and Red Rover are positively brilliant. In many ways, some of the tracks on SYW still sound very progressive today.
...
There was such a breadth and amount of material that the album just came across as a giant hot mess of battling egos. There was no balancing factor with Christine... who in my opinion bridged Stevie and Lindsey on Tusk, which is often compared to SYW.

other than Illume comment, i love almost everything you wrote here.

[elle]

I definitely agree that Peacekeeper was a disastrous choice for lead single. That whole chicken noise was embarrassing to listen to even as a hardcore Mac fan. And you couldn't be more right about what people thought the motives were behind the song. Peace was a very, very dirty word in '03. Use it, and you were called an un-American Commie Hippie Liberal Flag Burning Faggot. Have we all forgotten how when France refused to be involved in the Iraq invasion that Americans retaliated and started calling French Fries "Freedom Fries" etc? :rolleyes:

actually, i think that mentality may have started slowly changing at the time SYW came out (although the war started just a month before). remember this was the time of a sudden rise of Howard Dean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Dean? and his main appeal was that he openly criticized starting the war.

lindsey himself said in some interview that b/c of the above, when WB chose peacekeeper as the lead single, they must have known it would hit the nerve. to me, this showed the mac in the new light - finally looking at the world around them, instead of just living in their little self-indulgent inner circle. it showed them as progressive, and not stuck in the love and fairies cycle anymore.

[HomerMcvie]

But what about AC/DC? Their last album Black Ice was also a Wal Mart exclusive, and I believe it was their best selling album ever.

Impossible. Back In Black, is in the top five top sellers, and I believe(yes, I'm too lazy to look it up) has even surpassed Tumours, now.
Okay, I just toppled my laziness. BIB, #5. Tumours, #9. 19 million, vs 22 million.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_albums_in_the_United_States

[HomerMcvie]

And doesn't the fact that the band does no songs from SYW, tell you how THEY feel about it???
I mean, they had two minor hits on SYW, but they didn't play them, on their Doggie-style Tour?
SYW, and Time, never existed!!!:lol::lol::lol:


:mad:

[tilthefirefades]

And doesn't the fact that the band does no songs from SYW, tell you how THEY feel about it???
I mean, they had two minor hits on SYW, but they didn't play them, on their Doggie-style Tour?
SYW, and Time, never existed!!!:lol::lol::lol:


:mad:

Because they play every other song from every other studio album, amirite?

[elle]

And doesn't the fact that the band does no songs from SYW, tell you how THEY feel about it???

yeah i think that's really sad. they barely played any songs from it even on SYW tour! what was it, SYW, peacekeeper and come while promoting 18 new songs? few times DR and RTTG?

i'd probably decompose your THEY; there are some members of this band that seem afraid to jump into any newer/non-hit stuff... even when promoting the new album, apparently.

lindsey played several SYW songs on his last solo tour though. i'm sure he would have loved to play come on unleashed;):lol:

[tilthefirefades]

yeah i think that's really sad. they barely played any songs from it even on SYW tour! what was it, SYW, peacekeeper and come while promoting 18 new songs? few times DR and RTTG?

i'd probably decompose your THEY; there are some members of this band that seem afraid to jump into any newer/non-hit stuff... even when promoting the new album, apparently.

lindsey played several SYW songs on his last solo tour though. i'm sure he would have loved to play come on unleashed;):lol:

They also played WTWCT, Say Goodbye, and Goodbye Baby. That makes 6 songs if you don't include DR or RTTG since they were barely played. That is no more or less than the average amount of new material they have always played.

[HomerMcvie]

Other than Oh Well, their catalog only exists, from 1975-1987. No new material in the past 24 years.

God, has it really been 24 years, since 1987? Kill.me.now.:mad:

[Artemis]

I'd argue that their catalogue only goes from 1975-1982. Apart from Big Love, do they play any songs post-Mirage? :laugh:

[HomerMcvie]

I'd argue that their catalogue only goes from 1975-1982. Apart from Big Love, do they play any songs post-Mirage? :laugh:

Big Love, is the only reason I included Tango.


Not an oldies act? Yeah, whatever.

ARTISTS, create. Not rest on laurels, from 35 years ago.

[elle]

They also played WTWCT, Say Goodbye, and Goodbye Baby. That makes 6 songs if you don't include DR or RTTG since they were barely played. That is no more or less than the average amount of new material they have always played.

thanks, you are right, of course... apparently i have a very selective memory:laugh: - i kept thinking over LiB doc songs and just couldn't remember these (maybe i blocked them out b/c i really dislike SG and WTWCT, and i like silver springs more than GB as the show closer;))

[michelej1]

FM needed to use Thrown Down as the lead single.Period. not Peace keeper (bwa ba ba bwa bwa bwa) It was at a time when people were being obnoxious about ANYONE using the word "peace", it meant you were against the war which for a while was a bit taboo. now it would be fine. i remember comments on aol musics first listen people were like "take your PEACE somewhere else." which is dumb, cause the lyrics are actually "take no prisoners only kill":laugh:

I remember watching Regis at the time and Lisa Rinna was on his show as a guest co-host and she was wearing "peace" earrings and he actually took offense to that. She didn't say anything about politics and, Regis and Kelly being a tame, daytime show, controversial subjects are rarely raised. So, even though she didn't approach the subject of war, Rinna just had on peace earrings and her hair was short, so you could see them and Regis made a dark, disapproving comment about needing to support the troops. I couldn't believe it.

Michele

[elle]

with many people here saying mac should've played it safe in 2003, and have their usual love-related song instead of peacekeeper as the first SYW single, the whole discussion reminded me of something that Dave Stewart tweeted few days ago:

"Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail"

[louielouie2000]

with many people here saying mac should've played it safe in 2003, and have their usual love-related song instead of peacekeeper as the first SYW single, the whole discussion reminded me of something that Dave Stewart tweeted few days ago:

"Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail"

I actually am not advocating they should have played it safe at all. I just think they could have made a far better statement had they whittled the material down to what they actually wanted to say. There are just so many songs, and so many directions on the album. I think the more experimental tracks are actually my favorites: Illume, Murrow, Come, Smile At You, etc. I totally applaud the band for being so brash as to still try forward movement at that point in their career. At the same time, forward movement is not necessarily always movement in the right direction. The whole problem with SYW was Lindsey brought fully finished songs to the table, and splice those next to the Stevie songs which were fully fleshed out within the confines of Fleetwood Mac. Hence their disjointed sound when listened to next to one another. I think they could have worked with that though, had they simply trimmed several excess songs... and come up with a definitive direction/sound. The only reason I feel Destiny Rules should have been the lead single is it was safe and identifiable for record listeners. You hook them with that, then draw them into what you're really about and wanting to say :). Just my two cents of course :wavey:

[chiliD]

Thanks, Homie, for carrying the torch. I'll go back to my recliner and let my protege' handle this one.







:lol:

[HomerMcvie]

Thanks, Homie, for carrying the torch. I'll go back to my recliner and let my protege' handle this one.







:lol:

You taught me well, my dear mentor.

Someone has to smack these Chiffonheads into place!:lol:

[SN1948]

I agree that the main reason the Eagles album did better was because the Eagles have always been associated with country music and therefore they have a broader appeal than FM. The powers that be for the Eagles were brilliant to reallize that given their age that 10-25 year olds probably weren't going to be lining up to buy their album so they marketed them to a country audience. Not only does that audience buy CD's and shop at Walmart but they tend to be the most loyal (as compared to a pop/maistream one) and they have no problem with fact that their music is being sung by senior citizens. Even though the Eagles went more rock in the second half of their careers, they still managed to hang on to some of that audience, which is why I believe that their greatest hits I album sold a bizillion copies (it appeals to pop, country and rock audiences). They also played up that association by going on country award shows, radio stations and having their first single be a country song/video that was played on CMT. FM is at a much bigger disadvantage because they don't and have never had that audience. As for SYW, I like about a 1/3 of the songs. I think it would have been a better album if they had shortened it to about 10 songs, taken out their more avant-garde songs, and slowed down Say Goodbye (that is the best song but not so good of a record). It lost it's poignancy by being sped up to fast. When I hear that song from the Soundstage with L and S, all I can think is "Why Lindsey didn't you do it this way on the album?"

[MissLadyLoki]

I don't have much to say here, on account of I never heard Say You Will, but I guess the combo of country and Walmart (even though I much prefer Target and that the best part of it is the website People of Walmart :laugh:) does seem to equal promotional success in a world where big-box stores are dominating the market and country music sells with the Mac's primary target market, but the idea of a country-type single in a Walmart exclusive CD could work in racking up sales. Also, to attract the younger Mac fans out there who aren't too keen on buying CDs and the Internet is very important for any company that wants to promote themselves these days, the album and the indiviual tracks could be downloaded in Mp3 form from the Walmart website, just like what Amazon does now. Perhaps, although I dunno if this'll work, the album could also be expanded to music download company-things, such as iTunes and Napster, which can also serve as a bigger reach to the target audience

Now, since I don't have much else to say and that i finished playing marketing nerd (believe me, gimme some time and I could probably end up creating a whole IMC for a Mac album lol)... *grabs popcorn and lawnchair* anyone else who finds this thread entertaining may join me

EDIT: Also, I'm sorry if I rambled a bit too much here, I really do love business (I'm not in it just for the money, I really do enjoy marketing, especially the promotions aspect) and I just got a bit started :laugh:

[Sahara]

Really interesting thread, I particularly enjoyed your posts, Louie, insightful as always and I loved the siblings analogy! :laugh:

Although I actually do like every track on SYW (yes, even Silver Girl, leave me alone :p) and love many of them, I agree that a trimming down would have helped the whole thing cohere a bit better. Sadly, the tracks that probably would have gone are likely those experimental tracks mentioned above that also fall in my favourites list.

I also thought it was a real pity that no SYW songs were played on Unleashed. Even one would have been nice and Everybody Finds Out, Running Through The Garden or especially Thrown Down would have been big crowd-pleasers. (Though Come would have been my personal choice to bring back. ;))

[PenguinHead]

My two cents...

Say You Will w/o Christine = not good

Band members should not be "producing" their albums.

That's why I am encouraged by Lindsey speaking about hiring a producer for Fleetwood Mac for their next album. Great idea Lindsey!!!

He put too much of a heavy stamp of his esoteric, less accessible style on Say You Will, which is more akin and suited to his solo albums.

[sjpdg]

Ok, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest what might have been a better make up for "SYW".

What's The World Coming To
Illume
Thrown Down
Murrow Turning Over In His Grave
Love Minus Zero/No Limit
Say You Will
Peacekeeper
Come
Not Make Believe
Steal Your Heart Away (alt. version with more Christine audible)
Smile At You
Bleed To Love Her
Destiny Rules
Say Goodbye
Goodbye Baby
Everybody Finds Out (B-side to Say You Will or Destiny Rules)

I also think the lead single might have done well being "Bleed To Love Her". It would have been familiar to fans from "The Dance", thus accessible, would probably have gotten some decent airplay, and then the next one could have been "Peacekeeper", followed by "What's The World Coming To", then "Say You Will" and "Thrown Down".

Just a thought.

One last thing: Very Happy New Year to everyone here on "The Ledge"!

[chiliD]

I agree that the main reason the Eagles album did better was because the Eagles have always been associated with country music and therefore they have a broader appeal than FM. The powers that be for the Eagles were brilliant to reallize that given their age that 10-25 year olds probably weren't going to be lining up to buy their album so they marketed them to a country audience. Not only does that audience buy CD's and shop at Walmart but they tend to be the most loyal (as compared to a pop/maistream one) and they have no problem with fact that their music is being sung by senior citizens. Even though the Eagles went more rock in the second half of their careers, they still managed to hang on to some of that audience, which is why I believe that their greatest hits I album sold a bizillion copies (it appeals to pop, country and rock audiences). They also played up that association by going on country award shows, radio stations and having their first single be a country song/video that was played on CMT. FM is at a much bigger disadvantage because they don't and have never had that audience. As for SYW, I like about a 1/3 of the songs. I think it would have been a better album if they had shortened it to about 10 songs, taken out their more avant-garde songs, and slowed down Say Goodbye (that is the best song but not so good of a record). It lost it's poignancy by being sped up to fast. When I hear that song from the Soundstage with L and S, all I can think is "Why Lindsey didn't you do it this way on the album?"

Ahhh...but, had they marketed themselves appropriately during Bekka & Billy's tenure, they could've not only reinvented themselves in the Post-Buckingham Nicks era, but attracted a whole NEW audience (like they did 20 years earlier) and, who knows, could've had an album that would've challenged Rumours numbers.

Oh...sorry, Homie...I should've left that one for you. :)

[MissLadyLoki]

Did anyone like the section of my potential marketing plan for the Mac's next album? Or was it that bad? Or did none of you even bother to read it, cause you think it was dumb? :distress:

Oh yeah, and I just remembered something that could work at their advantage: the fact that outdoor media has gotten much more high-tech. I'm thinking that maybe, to reach not just the target audience but pretty much everyone else, they should look into those billboards that are basically mini-movies, and on them, they could show a clip of the album's lead single on there, jabber about how it's their new album and how it's gonna be only at Walmart. Does that work?

[holidayroad]

I don't have much to say here, on account of I never heard Say You Will, but I guess the combo of country and Walmart (even though I much prefer Target and that the best part of it is the website People of Walmart :laugh:) does seem to equal promotional success in a world where big-box stores are dominating the market and country music sells with the Mac's primary target market, but the idea of a country-type single in a Walmart exclusive CD could work in racking up sales. Also, to attract the younger Mac fans out there who aren't too keen on buying CDs and the Internet is very important for any company that wants to promote themselves these days, the album and the indiviual tracks could be downloaded in Mp3 form from the Walmart website, just like what Amazon does now. Perhaps, although I dunno if this'll work, the album could also be expanded to music download company-things, such as iTunes and Napster, which can also serve as a bigger reach to the target audience

Now, since I don't have much else to say and that i finished playing marketing nerd (believe me, gimme some time and I could probably end up creating a whole IMC for a Mac album lol)... *grabs popcorn and lawnchair* anyone else who finds this thread entertaining may join me

EDIT: Also, I'm sorry if I rambled a bit too much here, I really do love business (I'm not in it just for the money, I really do enjoy marketing, especially the promotions aspect) and I just got a bit started :laugh:

I can see it working from a marketing standpoint. Unfortunately, I think they'd lose a lot of current fans if they went the full country route. I would likely still buy it, just because of Lindsey, but I honestly don't care for country.

[MissLadyLoki]

I can see it working from a marketing standpoint. Unfortunately, I think they'd lose a lot of current fans if they went the full country route. I would likely still buy it, just because of Lindsey, but I honestly don't care for country.

Same here. I hate country (except for a few songs here and there, some crossover rockers like Lynyrd Skynyrd, and, of all things, Emmylou Harris)here in NY, if you like more than a few very popular people, you're automatically labeled as a redneck and will be made fun of mercilessly, the only way you'd be fun of more being if you were from upstate (then you'd have to brace yourself for questions such as driving your tractor to the store and making a tunnel to get out of your front door in October)

What i was thinking maybe a couple of country-flavored songs in the vein of After the Glitter Fades and the lead single from the album would be one of those songs to draw people in. Of course, they'd release a rocker too, but it's just to draw in people.

[elle]

I guess the combo of country and Walmart (even though I much prefer Target and that the best part of it is the website People of Walmart :laugh:) does seem to equal promotional success in a world where big-box stores are dominating the market and country music sells with the Mac's primary target market, but the idea of a country-type single in a Walmart exclusive CD could work in racking up sales. Also, to attract the younger Mac fans out there who aren't too keen on buying CDs and the Internet is very important for any company that wants to promote themselves these days, the album and the indiviual tracks could be downloaded in Mp3 form from the Walmart website, just like what Amazon does now. Perhaps, although I dunno if this'll work, the album could also be expanded to music download company-things, such as iTunes and Napster, which can also serve as a bigger reach to the target audience

i know nothing about marketing so this is purely for fun... i've read somewhere couple of days ago a speculation that Kid Rock may be making more money by selling just CDs instead of also offering his songs separately through itunes and similar... the article was clear that it was a speculation but they were crunching the numbers, on the basis that if available as indivisual songs, people wouldn't pay for the whole album.

the other place where i see CDs a lot, not always exclusively, is Starbucks. my 7yo kept looking longingly over new taylor swift album there today (that's taylor's demographic i guess:laugh:).

and then there's twitter, of course, which seems to be obligatory part of the larger picture - did you see Gaga's tweets last night, retweeted by interscope and tons of others, announcing new album and new single release dates?

[Artemis]

and then there's twitter, of course, which seems to be obligatory part of the larger picture - did you see Gaga's tweets last night, retweeted by interscope and tons of others, announcing new album and new single release dates?

That was a brilliant marketing scheme by GaGa, I had so many messages off friends telling me GaGa was putting out an announcement at midnight and saying how excited they were for it, etc.

It's sorta what Dave is doing by mentioning Stevie's album on Twitter, obviously she's not gonna be as huge as GaGa is, but the method is still the same. Ish.

[elle]

It's sorta what Dave is doing by mentioning Stevie's album on Twitter, obviously she's not gonna be as huge as GaGa is, but the method is still the same. Ish.

yeah, i almost felt a bit bad for dave, retweeting his own message with NYE song, while tweets about gaga were everywhere (guess 7 million followers would do that for you;)), with carson daly even showing her midnight tweet on network tv. but, to be realistic, she is at her peak/among the few big sellers now, dave had his heyday, same with the mac. and she has jimmy iovine behind her...

[Sahara]

There are definitely similarities. Duran Duran did something similar with their latest album, leaking snippets of tunes and lots of blog posts about the progress they were making, from the inception of the project right up to the release. It was exciting to watch, just like Dave's tweets are (however cryptic and evasive :p).

[BaronVonBielski]

A bomb? No. Disappointing? A bit... yes. Great initial sales, would have easily debuted #1 these days with numbers like that. I too unfortunately have compared the Eagles newest album's sales to that of SYW, unfair as it may be. I am not a big Eagles fan, but a fan of a lot of their songs. I can't believe Long Road Out of Eden sold as well as it did. It is pretty much pure Adult Contemporary drivel... two discs worth. No edge at all.
As far as SYW goes it has plenty of good songs on there, but I think Lindsey kept the best for himself... which is his right. I know he wanted to introduce some edge to SYW, but it could have used a bit more radio friendly tracks from him.

[TrueFaith77]

Did anyone like the section of my potential marketing plan for the Mac's next album? Or was it that bad? Or did none of you even bother to read it, cause you think it was dumb? :distress:

Oh yeah, and I just remembered something that could work at their advantage: the fact that outdoor media has gotten much more high-tech. I'm thinking that maybe, to reach not just the target audience but pretty much everyone else, they should look into those billboards that are basically mini-movies, and on them, they could show a clip of the album's lead single on there, jabber about how it's their new album and how it's gonna be only at Walmart. Does that work?

I'm afraid you lost me at the point where you said you never listened to Say You Will. Of course, I usually lose people at the point that I say SYW was the best American album of the 00s.

[Richard B]

Duran Duran did something similar with their latest album, leaking snippets of tunes and lots of blog posts about the progress they were making, from the inception of the project right up to the release. It was exciting to watch, just like Dave's tweets are (however cryptic and evasive :p).

Also Duran Duran offered their first single for free on iTunes, which is very marketing smart.

[HejiraNYC]

A bomb? No. Disappointing? A bit... yes. Great initial sales, would have easily debuted #1 these days with numbers like that. I too unfortunately have compared the Eagles newest album's sales to that of SYW, unfair as it may be. I am not a big Eagles fan, but a fan of a lot of their songs. I can't believe Long Road Out of Eden sold as well as it did. It is pretty much pure Adult Contemporary drivel... two discs worth. No edge at all.
As far as SYW goes it has plenty of good songs on there, but I think Lindsey kept the best for himself... which is his right. I know he wanted to introduce some edge to SYW, but it could have used a bit more radio friendly tracks from him.

I think you just hit the nail right on the head.

[HejiraNYC]

Also Duran Duran offered their first single for free on iTunes, which is very marketing smart.

It sounds good in theory, but I can't think of a single instance where this approach was particularly successful. It's a gimmick, and to me it seems like you are "devaluing the brand" when you start giving stuff away for free. Perhaps it might be okay for some indie act just getting started, but for an established artist, it reeks of desperation.

[michelej1]

As far as SYW goes it has plenty of good songs on there, but I think Lindsey kept the best for himself... which is his right. I know he wanted to introduce some edge to SYW, but it could have used a bit more radio friendly tracks from him.

Except for maybe Show You How, which I think is almost matched in quality by Miranda, I can't think of any UTS songs that were better than his SYW selections. I didn't need SYW to include songs we'd seen before, like BTLH and SYHA, but I think for the most part he offered what he considered to be his best stuff.

I think the GOS songs were better than what was on SYW, but I don't think that was the result of strategic maneuvering.

I can't believe he hoarded his good stuff from not only Fleetwood Mac, but himself too and decided to put out UTS to mark time, but to save the really stellar tracks for the album that was to follow that one. Michele

[LukeA]

I think you just hit the nail right on the head.

I disagree. "Peacekeeper" was set to be the lead single of "Gift of Screws" in Summer 2000, and that recording is probably the most accessible (and one of the very finest) song of his entire solo career. If he truly favored his solo output over his contributions to SYW, no way he "gives" that to the project.

[TrueFaith77]

Except for maybe Show You How, which I think is almost matched in quality by Miranda, I can't think of any UTS songs that were better than his SYW selections. I didn't need SYW to include songs we'd seen before, like BTLH and SYHA, but I think for the most part he offered what he considered to be his best stuff.

I think the GOS songs were better than what was on SYW, but I don't think that was the result of strategic maneuvering.

I can't believe he hoarded his good stuff from not only Fleetwood Mac, but himself too and decided to put out UTS to mark time, but to save the really stellar tracks for the album that was to follow that one. Michele

Well, perhaps he was still holding out hope that Gift of Screws would be a Mac album--and Right Place to Fade, Gift of Screws, Wait for You (on which Mick and John play) would have made for an electrifying Mac album.

[HejiraNYC]

I disagree. "Peacekeeper" was set to be the lead single of "Gift of Screws" in Summer 2000, and that recording is probably the most accessible (and one of the very finest) song of his entire solo career. If he truly favored his solo output over his contributions to SYW, no way he "gives" that to the project.

I recall wrinkling my nose a bit when I first saw the track listing for SYW. Where was "Down on Rodeo?" "She Smiled Sweetly?" "The Right Time to Fade?" "I Am Waiting?" "Gift of Screws?" Instead SYW ended up with the most uncatchy, self-indulgent stuff Lindsey's aborted solo album: "Red Rover," "Come," "Murrow," etc., which don't even feature Stevie on vocals! Don't get me wrong; in the right context (i.e., solo) those are pretty amazing songs. But I think they were too morose, dark and oblique for a group effort. I can imagine that many FM fans balked at the amount of CD real estate being devoted to these decidedly inaccessible songs. I think "Down on Rodeo" could have been an amazing Fleetwood Mac song, perhaps the defining moment of the whole album.

As for "Peacekeeper," that is hardly among his finest songs. I like the lyrics, but the melody is very uninventive (since it basically steals "Kodachrome" note-for-note) and the production is very sterile and tinny sounding. Pretty much the only thing this song has going for it is the fact that it is the closest we get to a Stevie-Lindsey duet on the entire album.

[Musicman408]

For me personally, it is really hard to say anything too negative about Say You Will- though it wasn't a spectacular seller. It was the album that got me into Fleetwood mac, so it's hard for me to knock it.

[Christopher]

I recall wrinkling my nose a bit when I first saw the track listing for SYW. Where was "Down on Rodeo?" "She Smiled Sweetly?" "The Right Time to Fade?" "I Am Waiting?" "Gift of Screws?" Instead SYW ended up with the most uncatchy, self-indulgent stuff Lindsey's aborted solo album: "Red Rover," "Come," "Murrow," etc., which don't even feature Stevie on vocals! Don't get me wrong; in the right context (i.e., solo) those are pretty amazing songs. But I think they were too morose, dark and oblique for a group effort. I can imagine that many FM fans balked at the amount of CD real estate being devoted to these decidedly inaccessible songs. I think "Down on Rodeo" could have been an amazing Fleetwood Mac song, perhaps the defining moment of the whole album.

As for "Peacekeeper," that is hardly among his finest songs. I like the lyrics, but the melody is very uninventive (since it basically steals "Kodachrome" note-for-note) and the production is very sterile and tinny sounding. Pretty much the only thing this song has going for it is the fact that it is the closest we get to a Stevie-Lindsey duet on the entire album.

Yes. Yes. Yes. As I was reading through this thread now, I was waiting for someone to point out SYW could have been much stronger with these Lindsey contributions, Especially "Down on Rodeo". When I heard the leaked Gift Of Screws ions ago, I was salivating imagining these songs reworked a bit on the new FM record, I could practically taste Stevie's harmonies added to DOR and SSS. And "The Right Time To Fade"/Twist Of Fate"-(my preferred title and possible great album title) could have been the new "Second Hand News" meets "The Ledge" on steroids. I also loved the RS covers. It would have been interesting to include Gotta Get Away or The Singer Not The Song somewhere if only on the bonus disc.

Though back to the original question at hand - to say SYW was a bomb is too crude. It's deeper than that, not necessarily that black or white. They (esp. Lindsey & Mick) had bombastic intentions going in and wanted to shake up the FM dynamic a bit. So with that in mind they succeeded somewhat. But I would add in hindsight we all wished for a big FM revival on the charts and radio, which just wasn't in the cards. Not everything aligned, there was too much disharmony. Upon release, you could see the tension between Stevie and Lindsey. Stevie was NOT at all happy with the total package and it showed up in her performances and initial interviews which seemed oddly subdued. And I think she was on to something. Some of the song selections were questionable. And there is almost unanimous agreement that the 1st single was off and that the sequencing sucked! AND whoever said Say Goodbye was too sped up....AMEN!! It's so jarring it ruins the song, which should have been lilting and lovely as it was on stage which allowed the song to breathe and Stevie's harmony to soar. As a minimum I would have definitely swapped out WTWCT & Come with DOR & Twist of Fate and resequenced the whole record. Beyond that requires a major overhaul too daunting to attempt, you might as well start from scratch.

[chiliD]

I am not a big Eagles fan, but a fan of a lot of their songs. I can't believe Long Road Out of Eden sold as well as it did. It is pretty much pure Adult Contemporary drivel... two discs worth. No edge at all.

Two discs? Try their entire catalogue...Adult Contemporary/Country-Rock drivel. The latest album is no different than what they've always done. You can equally distribute this new album as bonus tracks among their pre-1979 albums and you'd have difficulty telling that they were "new" songs. They were playing "How Long" (written by JD Souther) in their concert sets as early as 1972.

[ryan4136]

I am not going to complain about getting 18 songs, I know most of us were grateful.

With that being said when talking about SYW being a flop, I think a huge mistake was made in the length of this album. (from a sales standpoint)

It has a longer running time than tusk, yet is trying to pass itself off as a single album. The album is confused as to what it wants to be. A 2 disc album with radio and exploratory songs, or a solo comeback album. Trying to somehow pretend it's a compromise was a big mistake. With only 2 song writers this album should've been capped at 12 songs tops!!! Or give it's due expanded to 22-24 songs and go for the creative angle with a double album.

I know it's been talked about before but not having Christine loses the middle ground to really balance the album out. I close my eyes and wish we could've gotten Christine to put up 4 from In the meantime, with 4 from LB, and 4 from SN for you say you will. Then a year later release another album of 4, 4, 4, that would've put them back on the map musically in the way they were hoping.........but alas we are left with a too long 2/3 effort for sales.

But again thanks for the 18 tracks as a fan...love it.

[TrueFaith77]

I am not going to complain about getting 18 songs, I know most of us were grateful.

With that being said when talking about SYW being a flop, I think a huge mistake was made in the length of this album. (from a sales standpoint)

It has a longer running time than tusk, yet is trying to pass itself off as a single album. The album is confused as to what it wants to be. A 2 disc album with radio and exploratory songs, or a solo comeback album. Trying to somehow pretend it's a compromise was a big mistake. With only 2 song writers this album should've been capped at 12 songs tops!!! Or give it's due expanded to 22-24 songs and go for the creative angle with a double album.

I know it's been talked about before but not having Christine loses the middle ground to really balance the album out. I close my eyes and wish we could've gotten Christine to put up 4 from In the meantime, with 4 from LB, and 4 from SN for you say you will. Then a year later release another album of 4, 4, 4, that would've put them back on the map musically in the way they were hoping.........but alas we are left with a too long 2/3 effort for sales.

But again thanks for the 18 tracks as a fan...love it.

Yes to most/all of this--especially the bit I bolded.

The Mac mode is complex, but it's key is forced selection, by which the most excellent tracks should rise to the top while also those which permit a cohesive vision. That can be accomplished the Rumours way or the Tusk way, but SYW was something different.

[DallasDude]

I wouldn't label it a bomb, but rather a major disappointment. But then again I think the absence of Christine probably accounted for a loss of 300-500K in CD sales. Every article and review mentioned she wasn't on the record and that her voice was missed.

I personally don't think the woman should be made to tour, but they should strongly encourage her to continue in the studio with the band, even if just to add keyboards and harmonies. If she did contribute a few songs, they don't HAVE to release them as singles. Then there would be no pressure to HAVE to perform her songs in concert. But for the overall CD sound, her voice would complete the FM sound, and I bet CD sales would once again top 1 million.

[HomerMcvie]

I personally don't think the woman should be made to tour, but they should strongly encourage her to continue in the studio with the band, even if just to add keyboards and harmonies. If she did contribute a few songs, they don't HAVE to release them as singles. Then there would be no pressure to HAVE to perform her songs in concert. But for the overall CD sound, her voice would complete the FM sound, and I bet CD sales would once again top 1 million.
I agree, with at least getting her to record with them.
But as far as live, they might as well release her songs as singles, because, let's face it, she had the majority of hits, and they're ALREADY missing those, in concert.

[BaronVonBielski]

Except for maybe Show You How, which I think is almost matched in quality by Miranda, I can't think of any UTS songs that were better than his SYW selections. I didn't need SYW to include songs we'd seen before, like BTLH and SYHA, but I think for the most part he offered what he considered to be his best stuff.


I like UTS a lot, especially the title track... but I get your point. That album didn't really contain songs that would work as FM. Although Flying Down Juniper is one of the best songs he has ever done. There is something special about it.

[chiliD]

Here's "MY" Say You Will (for now, anyway):

Say You Will
Bleed To Love Her
Thrown Down (wall of sound version)
Try For The Sun
Destiny Rules
What's The World Coming To?
Illume
Murrow Turning Over In His Grave
Peacekeeper
Everybody Finds Out
Miranda
Smile At You
Steal Your Heart Away
Not Make Believe
Down On Rodeo
Goodbye Baby

[Fannymac]

Was it a bomb? Compared to THE DANCE, yes. Compared to TIME, absolutely not!
I think Warner's dropped the ball WAY early in the game.....I NEVER got the feeling that they believed in this project. I also think the single selection was weak.....both "Peacekeeper" and "Say You Will" were OK at best. "Thrown Down" should have been the first single, followed by either "What's The World Coming To" or "Steal Your Heart Away", then "Everybody Finds Out" and "Murrow Turning Over In His Grave."
The real question now, though, is this the album that Fleetwood Mac wants to end their run with? I kind of doubt it, which leads me to believe that there WILL be another album SOME day.

[ryan4136]

I actually have my doubts about another album for the band. They don't want to have a record sell less than the last one, I think there is some major fear in them, in regards to thier rep. I see more touring with songs from solo albums, rather than another album, after all SYW wasn't much more than two solo albums smushed togther anyway.

[cliffdweller]

The Eagles are viewed as American as Apple Pie. So is Wal Mart. Fleetwood Mac is not now, nor has ever been, viewed as American or patriotic. The Eagles had such a giant success because they were both of those things, and to boot they have a country flair to their sound.

The Eagles are patriotic? Don Henley is a raging liberal. Not sure about the rest of the band. My parents are HUGE Eagles fans so I listened to them a lot growing up and heard a lot of stories about the band members, etc. My own impression of them was more of a So. Cal country-rock, stoner, "peaceful easy feeling" hippy type of band, albeit with a countryesque edge, and a bit of hard living mixed in (Life in the Fast Lane is supposed to be about Stevie and Lindsey but it could also apply, loosely translated, to the band who wrote it). When I think of the phrase "American as apple pie" The Eagles do not come to mind.

[Silver Springs]

The Eagles are patriotic? Don Henley is a raging liberal.

I think the term patriotic has become a dirty word, most obviously here in the UK. Because when we think Patriotic, we're fed with images of loudmouth louts being offensive, violent and rude against anything they deem as different. Obama's campaign didn't help as YouTube (for example) was flooded with videos of so called Patriots demonstrating their narrow minded opinions during street interviews and rallies. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with loving where you come from. But alot of people tend to use the Umbrella term as an excuse to be ignorant.

[Jeff_TM]

I like the Extended Say you Will album
I would have put Down on Rodeo, and Not Make Believe Now,I am waiting (version with Stevie's Backing as seen in Destiny Rules). Taking out, and not to hurt anyones feelings, Miranda, Come, Red Rover (should of been on UTS or GoS,imo).

I feel harsh but the songs mentioned could have been on UTS or GoS, but that is just me,

[chiliD]

The Eagles are patriotic? Don Henley is a raging liberal.

:mad:
Since when has "patriotic" become exclusively a conservative/right wing phenomena? "Liberals" can't be "patriotic"?? ****, I didn't get the memo.

[Christopher]

:mad:
Since when has "patriotic" become exclusively a conservative/right wing phenomena? "Liberals" can't be "patriotic"?? ****, I didn't get the memo.
Agreed. Some politicians & "celebrity" politicians/pundits would like the public to believe it's symbiotic with being a republican/conservative:rolleyes:.

[BaronVonBielski]

Two discs? Try their entire catalogue...Adult Contemporary/Country-Rock drivel. The latest album is no different than what they've always done. You can equally distribute this new album as bonus tracks among their pre-1979 albums and you'd have difficulty telling that they were "new" songs. They were playing "How Long" (written by JD Souther) in their concert sets as early as 1972.

Maybe it's just because I really don't particularly like anything off of their new album. There are two I can stomach and they're No More Cloudy Days and How Long. It's funny what you said about How Long, it's one of only 2 songs I like and it ain't even really theirs. Figures...

[cliffdweller]

:mad:
Since when has "patriotic" become exclusively a conservative/right wing phenomena? "Liberals" can't be "patriotic"?? ****, I didn't get the memo.

Okay, point well taken, it's just that I don't know a whole lot of liberals who refer to themselves as patriotic, they tend to distance themselves from the term. Also, I don't know if The Eagles refer to themselves as patriotic, but my guess is no. Furthermore? "Patriotic" is not the first adjective that springs to mind when I think of The Eagles. That's all I'm saying.

[peer_gynt10]

Hi! I think this is my first post on the Rumours section, which actually is my favourite FM period. I think one of the reasons that SYW is considered as less of a success is because it is also slowly being written out of the band's history - by themselves. I mean, it wouldn't have hurt to throw in "Thrown Down" in the Unleashed setlist. I know it was all about the hits, but to the casual fan, surely "Storms" and "I know I'm not wrong" were just as obscure. They could at least have given the impression that they have been recording songs after 1987 and maybe even raised interest in some of the recent stuff.

[Sahara]

I mean, it wouldn't have hurt to throw in "Thrown Down" in the Unleashed setlist. I know it was all about the hits, but to the casual fan, surely "Storms" and "I know I'm not wrong" were just as obscure. They could at least have given the impression that they have been recording songs after 1987 and maybe even raised interest in some of the recent stuff.

The latter especially. Very good point :nod:

Welcome aboard! :wavey:

[Jeff_TM]

@ Peer, good point, welcome as well.
To me the album itself fusing to views one new songs by stevie and lindsey trying to put his work for a solo album into the mix...If they ever do an album they must not say this is something they were already going to do on their own.It needs to be fresh(which I think it was was stated for the Unleashed tour reasoning. God bless for Say you will though it is a killer album, just a few songs I like I do love Not make believe..... should have been on say you will in the first place

[Dodfather]

and Right Place to Fade, Gift of Screws, Wait for You (on which Mick and John play) would have made for an electrifying Mac album.

I'd love these tracks to have been on the record. I especially think that Stevie's backing vocals could have worked really well on Wait For You. I LOVE the version we have on Gift Of Screws but out of all the tracks on that album, that's the one I can really hear working with FM.

[jbrownsjr]

Were the eagles doing the Straight-to-walmart-release? that has really worked to their advantage. FM needed to use Thrown Down as the lead single.Period. not Peace keeper (bwa ba ba bwa bwa bwa) It was at a time when people were being obnoxious about ANYONE using the word "peace", it meant you were against the war which for a while was a bit taboo. now it would be fine. i remember comments on aol musics first listen people were like "take your PEACE somewhere else." which is dumb, cause the lyrics are actually "take no prisoners only kill":laugh:

I agree with you 100%!

[Sahara]

I'd love these tracks to have been on the record. I especially think that Stevie's backing vocals could have worked really well on Wait For You. I LOVE the version we have on Gift Of Screws but out of all the tracks on that album, that's the one I can really hear working with FM.

I love this idea! :thumbsup:

[wheart]

To me, Say You Will is a Lindsey Buckingham solo album with 8 or 9 bonus tracks featuring Stevie Nicks. It never sounded like a Fleetwood Mac record to my ears and while it did feature some standout cuts (mostly Lindsey's songs) it was just too damn long. Some selective editing would have improved it slightly. Most of Lindsey's songs on this record are fantastic - Stevie's not so much.

[ryan4136]

To me, Say You Will is a Lindsey Buckingham solo album with 8 or 9 bonus tracks featuring Stevie Nicks. It never sounded like a Fleetwood Mac record to my ears and while it did feature some standout cuts (mostly Lindsey's songs) it was just too damn long. Some selective editing would have improved it slightly. Most of Lindsey's songs on this record are fantastic - Stevie's not so much.

Well I think as we all know that's really what SYW was. LB's stuff was completed before SN even showed up. Her background was all added in after the fact, and some of those LB songs were never touched.

It's really difficult for this to sound like a true Rumours era album without CM as has been talked about at length. But this album missed on some of the core trademarks of a FM album. FM really is at it's best when songs are based around Mick, and John, with guitar parts added or layered over the top. With great harmony flowing between vocalist.

SYW used a totally different formula, the guitar on this album on nearly every song is the lead intstrument, relegating Mick and John to little more than just a rythm section. (With a few exceptions, John on Smile at You for example)

The album was too long, as I stated earlier in this thread. Either a decision needed to be made to make this album a double and get really creative or go for the biggest market share and go smaller with radio ready hits.


With Christine

1. Thrown Down
2. Friend
3. Peacekeeper
4. Steal Your Heart Away
5. Say you will
6. You are
7. What's the world coming to
8. Silver Girl
9. Say Goodbye
10. Bleed to love her
11. Forgiveness
12. Come
13. Goodbye Baby

Without Christine

1. Thrown Down
2. Peacekeeper
3. Say you will
4. Steal your heart away
5. What's the world coming to
6. Silver Girl
7. Down on Rodeo
8. Destiny Rules
9. Say Goodbye
10. Bleed to love her
11. Come
12. Goodbye Baby

[vivfox]

Taken from the web

Brad asked: "What do you think of Say You Will?"
Well, what I thought was my copy of it is still sitting here in my parents' house, and when I went to grab it, both discs were missing and a spider crawled out.

But then I spent $9.99 on a replacement and, after listening to it for two days, I don't exactly regret it. I don't exactly not regret it, either, though.

I mean, I don't know, I should like this album. I loved Lindsey's tracks when they were passed around as a shelved solo album called Gift of Screws. (This was a different Gift of Screws than the Gift of Screws that came out in 2008.) But maybe that's the problem -- this is a Lindsey Buckingham album.

Which, adding Fleetwood Mac to a Lindsey Buckingham album doesn't do any harm -- when has Stevie Nicks harmonizing with Lindsey Buckingham ever harmed anything? -- and there are a couple of lovely new moments. The way Stevie curlicues up off the main melody at the end of "Steal Your Heart Away." The way her voice haunts Lindsey's on "Say Goodbye." (Though even that's much, much better live.) But on most of the songs, Fleetwood Mac feels like an afterthought. Or not a thought at all: the Say You Will versions of "Come," "Murrow," and "Red Rover" are identical to the Gift of Screws versions of "Come," "Murrow," and "Red Rover." "Peacekeeper" is the only song that really changes with the addition of the band -- it's deeper and more urgent with Mick and John behind it, and any chorus to which Stevie Nicks is added automatically becomes a chorus of fifteen-year-olds. Which is what a song about a nation marching its children off to an endgame of a war (or something) needs!

But you know what song doesn't need a chorus of children? A song about asking a former lover for a second chance. And as long as we're talking about things that don't need to exist: "Illume." "Destiny Rules." The part of "Illume" that re-appears as part of "Destiny Rules." Stevie is really, really uneven on this album -- but the bad lyrics aren't even the biggest disappointment.

Four of Stevie's songs had been around since before this album too: "Thrown Down" was an outtake from her last solo album, Trouble in Shangri-La. "Running Through the Garden" is from at least as far back as '85. "Smile at You" demos were recorded for both Mirage and Tusk, and "Goodbye Baby" grew out of a demo called "The Tower," which I think was recorded in the late '70s.

In their demo forms, those last two were two of my favorites. "Smile at You" was a straightforward rock song built on a solid line: "My first mistake was to smile at you." "The Tower" never got past the piano-and-metronome stage, but I never thought it needed to, the throaty resign of her voice sounded better when there was space around it. And it isn't like she couldn't have done them justice, even twenty years later, even with the way she sounds now. She managed it with the three old demos that turned up on Trouble in-Shangri-La -- no, more than managed it. She made the way her voice had changed work in her favor: the Trouble in Shangri-La version of "Sorcerer," for example, starts out even, settled, so the trill comes out of nowhere and disappears just as fast, and the way that plays against the rest of her voice, and against the lyrics, it's disconcerting, it's menacing. It brings out the best of what she has now.

Say You Will, on the other hand -- the same way the band feels like an afterthought on Lindsey's tracks, Stevie's voice feels like an afterthought on Stevie's tracks. Because they sound like a Lindsey Buckingham album, too, layers of Lindsey's guitars, layers of Lindsey's voice crawling up out of the shadows, that shivering dream atmosphere that works so well when he whispers or yelps against it, but makes Stevie's voice seem jarring and out of place. And it's frustrating, because there are moments where it works despite itself, moments like the verses of "Smile at You" and the middle of "Running Through the Garden," where she sounds more alive than she has in years. "Everybody Finds Out" is the worst song I've ever heard, until it becomes the best song I've ever heard, until it becomes the worst song I've ever heard. And while the lyrics are a little bit to blame, it's mostly the fault of the frantic production -- which, by the way, go pick up Tango in the Night and listen to "Big Love." Now listen to "Everybody Finds Out." Now listen to "Big Love" again. Right?

I guess what I'm trying to say is, the parts are there, but they never come together. It's like something important is missing, you know? It's like something important is missing.

http://girlboymusic.livejournal.com/307298.html

[Meowi]

Let's just say it could be much better.

[MrBTH]

Here's "MY" Say You Will (for now, anyway):

Say You Will
Bleed To Love Her
Thrown Down (wall of sound version)
Try For The Sun
Destiny Rules
What's The World Coming To?
Illume
Murrow Turning Over In His Grave
Peacekeeper
Everybody Finds Out
Miranda
Smile At You
Steal Your Heart Away
Not Make Believe
Down On Rodeo
Goodbye Baby

Thats a pretty good tracklist but please, not the "wall of sound" version of Thrown Down... To me it strips everything great out of a beautiful song and replaces it with horrible, anodyne, unsubtle overproduction... Thank god Lord-Alge didn't get the chance to ruin any more songs!

I think that it's an almost perfect album creatively, from that perspective I disagree completely that it has flow issues or that it was overlong. However commercially it was definitely too much for the general buyer.

Personally I'm glad that they gave us something truly special, a record that I never ever get tired of listening to, rather than taking the easy option and putting out the 12 most commercial cuts.

Roll on the next Fleetwood Mac album!