NOMINATIONS: Favorite Rumours Era Song

[MacShadowsBall]

Here are the nominations for Favorite Rumours Era song...

Rhiannon - winner of Favorite Song from '75 White album
You Make Loving Fun - winner of Favorite Christine Song
Go Your Own Way - winner of Favorite Lindsey Song
The Chain - winner of Favorite Song from Rumours
Sara - winner of Favorite Song from Tusk
Gypsy - (double hitter) winner of both Favorite Song from Mirage and Favorite Stevie Song
Little Lies - winner of Favorite Song from Tango in the Night
Thrown Down - winner of Favorite Song from Say You Will

Nominate 2 songs. The top 4 songs will move on; the others will be out of the battle.

Silver Springs will be the Tiebreaker/arbiter.

Nominations close in 4 days on Sunday.

[Villavic]

I guess you mean Rumours lineup, not era. I've always seen a defined era conformed by the White Album- Rumours - Tusk .

Mick described it so, when he tells about the Tusk tour end:
Three days later, in front of a sold-out audience at the Hollywood Bowl, Lindsey leaned into the mike and announced, "This is our last concert . . . for a long time." I'll never forget Stevie's "Landslide" that night, the way she sang about growing older in her scratchy, uncertain voice. It was an ineffable moment. After the show, we had a classic locker-room victory celebration kisses, hugs, champagne, intense feelings of relief mingled with fatigue. To me it felt like the end of an era. And it indeed turned out to be exactly that.

Mirage and Tango belong to a different era, defined by a new decade, a 5 years interval between albums, and the presence of solo works. The late 70s Fleetwood Mac era is far different.

[TerraRhiannon]

You've got to be kidding me. This is possibly the hardest decision I've ever had to make, haha.

I got bored, this was the result:

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[MacShadowsBall]

Here on the Ledge, there are 3 eras - Pre-Rumours, Rumours, and Post-Rumours. Where besides Rumours era would Mirage, Tango, and SYW go? :shrug:

[Artemis]

Ridiculously hard choice.

I went for Rhiannon and Gypsy though. No Rhiannon = No Stevie Nicks.

Gypsy is simply a masterpiece.

[BaronVonBielski]

Had to go with The Chain and Go Your Own way.

[chiliD]

"Rhiannon" & "Go Your Own Way" for me.


Here on the Ledge, there are 3 eras - Pre-Rumours, Rumours, and Post-Rumours. Where besides Rumours era would Mirage, Tango, and SYW go? :shrug:

Since Mirage, Tango & The Dance have the same personnel as the Rumours album, they're DEFINITELY Rumours era.

TECHNICALLY, SYW should go "Post-Rumours", since Christine is gone. If you count SYW to be Rumours-era without one member from that era, then you might as well count BTM as Rumours-era since only one member from that era is gone, as well. Yeah, that's what I thought.

[Silver Springs]

"Rhiannon" & "Go Your Own Way" for me.

Since Mirage, Tango & The Dance have the same personnel as the Rumours album, they're DEFINITELY Rumours era.

TECHNICALLY, SYW should go "Post-Rumours", since Christine is gone. If you count SYW to be Rumours-era without one member from that era, then you might as well count BTM as Rumours-era since only one member from that era is gone, as well. Yeah, that's what I thought.

I'd probably agree with you here. Tusk, Mirage, Rumours and so on are most definitely Rumours Lineup/Era. Behind The Mask (Tango In The Night tour if we're nitpicking), Say You Will and any future project would be post Rumours. But if we were nitpicking to such a degree, in the same breath we'd have to cut them down even further. So there would have to be a Peter Green era, a Bob Welch era and such. To save confusion and just to make an otherwise overly complicated lineup history more simple, Pre, Rumours and Post are the easiest to stick to and pretty much differentiated by a missing link.


You've got to be kidding me. This is possibly the hardest decision I've ever had to make, haha.

I got bored, this was the result:

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:thumbsup: :thumbsup:


If I were able to vote at the present moment, I would vote for Rhiannon and Gypsy. But my favourite songs are ever mercurial so that could change in as little as an hour hehe.

[MacShadowsBall]

TECHNICALLY, SYW should go "Post-Rumours", since Christine is gone. If you count SYW to be Rumours-era without one member from that era, then you might as well count BTM as Rumours-era since only one member from that era is gone, as well. Yeah, that's what I thought.

But if you do that then you might as well count Rumours era as Pre-Rumours since only one member (Bob Welch) was gone. ;)

The standard here seems to be SYW is Rumours era. So I guess it goes Pre-Rumours, Rumours, Post-Rumours and then Rumours minus 1...maybe they can create another forum dividing 75-87 and 97-2010.

Actually the '75 FM album could be counted as Pre-Rumours since it came before Rumours!! :shrug:

But back on topic, these 8 are all great songs. Its gonna be hard for me to pick my two, not that it's easy for you guys!! :cool:

[MissLadyLoki]

I voted for The Chain and Gypsy

[Villavic]

The Ledge define forums, not necessarily eras, I guess.


Since Mirage, Tango & The Dance have the same personnel as the Rumours album, they're DEFINITELY Rumours era.
.

Since you "friendly" say DEFINITELY, and in uppercase (shouting according to some internet/email standards), I'm afraid to answer... but... who cares... :laugh:

I still feel Tango and Mirage from different eras. Even with the divorces/breakups nightmares during Rumours, Tusk, those albums (with the band) seems more from a strong band.

During Mirage and Tango, members had their own lawyers, interests, agreements. They had grown. They were in their late 30s. Impossible to be on the same "swing". It is "definitely" a different era to me. A strong group still, but some chemistry was being lost.

As the Beatles, always the same personnel but different haircuts, lyrics,. The first albums (circa 1962-66) contains songs about a crush on a girl, being in love, pop sound, etc. The late albums (1967-70) are more of the hippie era, long haircuts, the flower power, peace & love, some deep lyrics, maybe LSD or diamonds ;), etc.. "Definitely" different eras. But the same personnel

So why not 2 different eras during the Rumours lineup?

[chiliD]

The standard here seems to be SYW is Rumours era.

Which irks me to no end, because it ISN'T. :mad: No Christine, NOT Rumours era. To me Rumours-era is: Mick, John, Chris, Lindsey, Stevie...as a unit. Hence, '75 album, Rumours, Tusk, Live (1980), Mirage, Tango In The Night, most of tie 1988 Greatest Hits, The Dance.

Behind The Mask, Time, Say You Will, & Live In Boston (2003) are POST-Rumours era albums. Since not all of the qualifying 5 members are involved. Ok, those may argue that "Christine makes an appearance or two on SYW", well, so does Lindsey on both BTM & Time...but those aren't considered Rumours era.

A proposed compromise: If SYW is to be considered Rumours-era, then the Rumours forum name should be changed to "Buckingham & Nicks-era". That would be the only way SYW could qualify. But, as is, the criteria of being the 5 members who were on Rumours, it doesn't and shouldn't.

[MissLadyLoki]

"Rhiannon" & "Go Your Own Way" for me.




Since Mirage, Tango & The Dance have the same personnel as the Rumours album, they're DEFINITELY Rumours era.

TECHNICALLY, SYW should go "Post-Rumours", since Christine is gone. If you count SYW to be Rumours-era without one member from that era, then you might as well count BTM as Rumours-era since only one member from that era is gone, as well. Yeah, that's what I thought.

Please don't kill me or put me down in any way when i say this.

I kinda consider SYW to be Rumours era part 2 cause, sure you're missing a member, but it is essentially the same lineup and it sounds pretty close musically to my ears, almost an updated version for the new millenium.

When someone says post-Rumours, I immediately have visions of Rick and Billy and BTM and Time, not SYW

[Silver Springs]

Which irks me to no end, because it ISN'T. :mad: No Christine, NOT Rumours era. To me Rumours-era is: Mick, John, Chris, Lindsey, Stevie...as a unit. Hence, '75 album, Rumours, Tusk, Live (1980), Mirage, Tango In The Night, most of tie 1988 Greatest Hits, The Dance.

Behind The Mask, Time, Say You Will, & Live In Boston (2003) are POST-Rumours era albums. Since not all of the qualifying 5 members are involved. Ok, those may argue that "Christine makes an appearance or two on SYW", well, so does Lindsey on both BTM & Time...but those aren't considered Rumours era.

A proposed compromise: If SYW is to be considered Rumours-era, then the Rumours forum name should be changed to "Buckingham & Nicks-era". That would be the only way SYW could qualify. But, as is, the criteria of being the 5 members who were on Rumours, it doesn't and shouldn't.

..... In your opinion.

The board has developed a long standing concensus without it.

Please don't kill me or put me down in any way when i say this.

I kinda consider SYW to be Rumours era part 2 cause, sure you're missing a member, but it is essentially the same lineup and it sounds pretty close musically to my ears, almost an updated version for the new millenium.

When someone says post-Rumours, I immediately have visions of Rick and Billy and BTM and Time, not SYW

I agree. Completely my own opinion, and I apologise to anybody who doesn't share it, but personally the term "Post Rumours" is synonymous with dip in quality and standards. Say You Will is a return to the mentality that made the Rumours era so great, so should even be an honorary member despite Chris' regrettable abscence.

[MissLadyLoki]

..... In your opinion.

The board has developed a long standing concensus without it.

:thumbsup:

I had to give it to you Bee. Couldn't have said it any better

*Runs and hides for cover in case war breaks out*

[chiliD]

The Ledge define forums, not necessarily eras, I guess.



Since you "friendly" say DEFINITELY, and in uppercase (shouting according to some internet/email standards), I'm afraid to answer... but... who cares... :laugh:

Not shouting, just stressing the point. :shrug:

[Villavic]

I don't believe an era is defined necessarily just by members.
I described the Beatles
Bee Gees: pre and post Saturday Night Fever
U2: lot of eras
QUEEN before and after The Game = 70s and 80s = not synth and with synths
etc...

even singers may have different eras:
Olivia: pre and post Grease (confirmed by herself)
Elton John
David Bowie
Rod Stewart

[MissLadyLoki]

I don't believe an era is defined necessarily just by members.
I described the Beatles
Bee Gees: pre and post Saturday Night Fever
U2: lot of eras
QUEEN before and after The Game = 70s and 80s = not synth and with synths
etc...

even singers may have different eras:
Olivia: pre and post Grease (confirmed by herself)
Elton John
David Bowie
Rod Stewart

Speaking of different eras, my all-time fave band, Led Zeppelin, does have some big diffs between I-IV and Houses of the Holy to In Through the Out Door. During their second half, they explore more genres and push more boundaries, which is quite evident (and the reason why I love) Physical Graffiti

Another one is Foreigner. After I Want to Know What Love Is hit #1, their whole image changed (and led to a huge fight between Mick Jones and Lou Gramm about it too)

[Silver Springs]

Speaking of different eras, my all-time fave band, Led Zeppelin, does have some big diffs between I-IV and Houses of the Holy to In Through the Out Door. During their second half, they explore more genres and push more boundaries, which is quite evident (and the reason why I love) Physical Graffiti

Another one is Foreigner. After I Want to Know What Love Is hit #1, their whole image changed (and led to a huge fight between Mick Jones and Lou Gramm about it too)

I think if you're a huge R.E.M. fan, such as myself, it's obvious from album to album how different their approaches are. For example, the ethereal Monster. One could never equate it to the low key and somewhat dull Reveal. Having said that, there does seem to be somewhat of a creative confusion pre and post Bill Berry (Drummer who left in '97 to become a Farmer of all things, most notable for his MONDO Unibrow lol). It's fair to say they were in a funk for a very long time. Where as I do enjoy post Bill music, it's arguable for most fans that they never really got their groove back until 2008's Accelerate. I just hope the new album they're releasing next year carries on the trend and shows them on top form again.

By the way (have to drop this in when I mention R.E.M. lol), hands up who has ever groped Michael Stipe's butt during a gig. *Plants firm hands in the air*. Surprisingly firm and pliant :p

[HomerMcvie]

Please don't kill me or put me down in any way when i say this.
Boo. Strongly disagree.

I kinda consider SYW to be Rumours era part 2 cause, sure you're missing a member, but it is essentially the same lineup and it sounds pretty close musically to my ears, almost an updated version for the new millenium.
Not even close. Not only is the #1 hitmaker gone, but so is the only singer, who still has an impressive voice.

When someone says post-Rumours, I immediately have visions of Rick and Billy and BTM and Time, not SYW
But Chris and Stevie were on BTM, and Chris on Time. So by your logic, BTM is a Rumours lineup. After all they're only missing one member!:confused:

[MissLadyLoki]

Boo. Strongly disagree.


Not even close. Not only is the #1 hitmaker gone, but so is the only singer, who still has an impressive voice.


But Chris and Stevie were on BTM, and Chris on Time. So by your logic, BTM is a Rumours lineup. After all they're only missing one member!:confused:

I knew this was gonna happen, that someone was gonna put me down :(

Maybe I should learn to keep my controversial opinions to myself

[HomerMcvie]

I knew this was gonna happen, that someone was gonna put me down :(

Maybe I should learn to keep my controversial opinions to myself

We all have our opinions, and are certainly entitled to them. Posting them though, of course, opens them up for debate.

For me, FM really ceased to exist, after The Dance. Without Chris, I have very little interest now. And look how they STILL milk Tumours, 34!!!! years after it was released. If that's not down right EMBARRASSING, for them as artists, I'll kiss your ass. They're an OLDIES act now. Not because of their age, but their lack of artistic direction.

[SuperFleetwood]

You know what chilid, AND SYW, should go under rumours, so i have to disagree with you on that chillid!!

"Rhiannon" & "Go Your Own Way" for me.




Since Mirage, Tango & The Dance have the same personnel as the Rumours album, they're DEFINITELY Rumours era.

TECHNICALLY, SYW should go "Post-Rumours", since Christine is gone. If you count SYW to be Rumours-era without one member from that era, then you might as well count BTM as Rumours-era since only one member from that era is gone, as well. Yeah, that's what I thought.

[Silver Springs]

I knew this was gonna happen, that someone was gonna put me down :(

Maybe I should learn to keep my controversial opinions to myself

*Hugs* He wasn't putting you down. Just expressing his own opinion as we in a Democracy do.

Listen folks. I feel like there's a little tension in this thread at the moment. Now can we all please take a few deep breaths of the lovely air, maybe have a cup of Tea and come and sit with me for a cuggle? *Breaks out her Guitar and starts up a chorus of Kumbayah*

[SuperFleetwood]

Hommer i have to agree with ladyloki!!!

Boo. Strongly disagree.


Not even close. Not only is the #1 hitmaker gone, but so is the only singer, who still has an impressive voice.


But Chris and Stevie were on BTM, and Chris on Time. So by your logic, BTM is a Rumours lineup. After all they're only missing one member!:confused:

[MissLadyLoki]

We all have our opinions, and are certainly entitled to them. Posting them though, of course, opens them up for debate.

For me, FM really ceased to exist, after The Dance. Without Chris, I have very little interest now. And look how they STILL milk Tumours, 34!!!! years after it was released. If that's not down right EMBARRASSING, for them as artists, I'll kiss your ass. They're an OLDIES act now. Not because of their age, but their lack of artistic direction.

*Takes a deep breath* I don't believe I am actually doing this :distress:

Take a listen to Tusk and tell me: does that sound even remotely like they're trying to milk Rumours? I don't think so.

And if they're such an oldies act, then why do classic rock stations play 'em still? And if you wanna know a band that became an oldies act due to lack of artistic direction from one great album, listen to the Beach Boys. I think you got your histories mixed up

[Silver Springs]

*Takes a deep breath* I don't believe I am actually doing this :distress:

Take a listen to Tusk and tell me: does that sound even remotely like they're trying to milk Rumours? I don't think so.

And if they're such an oldies act, then why do classic rock stations play 'em still? And if you wanna know a band that became an oldies act due to lack of artistic direction from one great album, listen to the Beach Boys. I think you got your histories mixed up

Ahem! *Taps above post* Play nice everybody :) I've got one job in this thread, and by Buddha I'm gonna do it lol. Oh and Rolling Stones is considered an Oldies act too, just like Dylan ;)

[SuperFleetwood]

CHILLID, PLEASE GET THE FACTS STRAIGHT!!! IVE BEEN A ADDICTED FLEETWOOD MAC ADDICT FOR 6 YEARS NOW!!! OHH AND ANOTHER THING ABOUT SAY YOU WILL, SO WHAT IF CHRISTINE MCVIE ISN'T THERE, REMEBER HER VOCALS ARE ON BACKUP ON MOST SONGS!!!!! I KNOW!!!

Not shouting, just stressing the point. :shrug:

[MissLadyLoki]

Ahem! *Taps above post* Play nice everybody :) I've got one job in this thread, and by Buddha I'm gonna do it lol. Oh and Rolling Stones is considered an Oldies act too, just like Dylan ;)

Ok I'll be quiet and play nicely. Maybe this is why I should keep my mouth shut for now on :distress:

[Silver Springs]

CHILLID, PLEASE GET THE FACTS STRAIGHT!!! IVE BEEN A ADDICTED FLEETWOOD MAC ADDICT FOR 6 YEARS NOW!!! OHH AND ANOTHER THING ABOUT SAY YOU WILL, SO WHAT IF CHRISTINE MCVIE ISN'T THERE, REMEBER HER VOCALS ARE ON BACKUP ON MOST SONGS!!!!! I KNOW!!!

If you have an opinion, which we are all very open to, please use your inside voice. Bees have very tiny ears and this volume makes their heads explode :(

[Silver Springs]

Ok I'll be quiet and play nicely. Maybe this is why I should keep my mouth shut for now on :distress:

That's not a good idea at all, honey. It's just getting very tense in here at the moment, and a little cooling off is needed by some parties before re-approaching the topic at hand. It's a discussion thread, not an argument thread. And that goes for everybody, not you specifically.

[HomerMcvie]

*Takes a deep breath* I don't believe I am actually doing this :distress:

Take a listen to Tusk and tell me: does that sound even remotely like they're trying to milk Rumours? I don't think so.

And if they're such an oldies act, then why do classic rock stations play 'em still? And if you wanna know a band that became an oldies act due to lack of artistic direction from one great album, listen to the Beach Boys. I think you got your histories mixed up
You don't follow my logic very well.
The FM to which I refer, is NOT FM from 1979. Or 1982. Or 1987. Or 1997.
The FM to which I'm referring, is the lounge act that they've become, NOW, with all that idiotic "shipper" crap in the set.

[SuperFleetwood]

just trying to get my point acrose!

If you have an opinion, which we are all very open to, please use your inside voice. Bees have very tiny ears and this volume makes their heads explode :(

[MissLadyLoki]

You don't follow my logic very well.
The FM to which I refer, is NOT FM from 1979. Or 1982. Or 1987. Or 1997.
The FM to which I'm referring, is the lounge act that they've become, NOW, with all that idiotic "shipper" crap in the set.

Um OK, I guess I'll leave then and just accept your opinion, but I must ask: why are you even here posting if you don't like the band anymore? :shrug:

[HomerMcvie]

Hommer i have to agree with ladyloki!!!

So? What does that mean? She wins?;)

[SuperFleetwood]

whoa homer,

You don't follow my logic very well.
The FM to which I refer, is NOT FM from 1979. Or 1982. Or 1987. Or 1997.
The FM to which I'm referring, is the lounge act that they've become, NOW, with all that idiotic "shipper" crap in the set.

[SuperFleetwood]

YES IT DOES!!!
So? What does that mean? She wins?;)

[Silver Springs]

Um OK, I guess I'll leave then and just accept your opinion, but I must ask: why are you even here posting if you don't like the band anymore? :shrug:

There are fans of all variations of the band on the board posting away. Just because there's a dissillusionment at the moment doesn't give rise to exclusion. It merely means he's waiting to be impressed by the eventual next album ;)So? What does that mean? She wins?;)

There aren't any winners when it comes to "Opinions". Merely agreements to disagree.

[HomerMcvie]

Um OK, I guess I'll leave then and just accept your opinion, but I must ask: why are you even here posting if you don't like the band anymore? :shrug:

Because, believe it or not, some of us have been discussing FM, for FIFTEEN years. Me, David O, Steve MacDougal...and others too. Back in the stone age, there was an internet app, called Usenet. And there was a FM newsgroup, on Usenet. That's where we met! Soon to be SIXTEEN years ago.

And just because I don't prefer the FM of now, doesn't mean I can't still talk about, and appreciate, the FM of the past, does it?

May I ask your age? NO offense, whatsoever. You just don't seem to follow logical arguments, very well. I'm just curious.

[SuperFleetwood]

ok great!!!!!!!!!!!

Because, believe it or not, some of us have been discussing FM, for FIFTEEN years. Me, David O, Steve MacDougal...and others too. Back in the stone age, there was an internet app, called Usenet. And there was a FM newsgroup, on Usenet. That's where we met! Soon to be SIXTEEN years ago.

And just because I don't prefer the FM of now, doesn't mean I can't still talk about, and appreciate, the FM of the past, does it?

May I ask your age? NO offense, whatsoever. You just don't seem to follow logical arguments, very well. I'm just curious.

[HomerMcvie]

There are fans of all variations of the band on the board posting away. Just because there's a dissillusionment at the moment doesn't give rise to exclusion. It merely means he's waiting to be impressed by the eventual next album ;)

There aren't any winners when it comes to "Opinions". Merely agreements to disagree.
I appreciate, and respect, a voice of logic and reason.:woohoo:

[MacShadowsBall]

I step away for 30 minutes and look what happens! :laugh:

First of all, on the Stevie forum, they seem to consider each album as an "era":confused:. I can imagine doing that w/FM and their 18 or so albums. To me (my opinion) an era/lineup, which Villavic began this with, are one and the same as far as FM is concerned. Other bands I don't really now and/or care about.

Now unless the owners/operators? of the Ledge add another FM forum for 1997(8) till the present, I suppose that "era" falls into the Rumours forum.

On the Pre-Rumours forum, I divided the nominations up into 2 parts. I didn't really want to but it had to be done. 13 songs with a limit of 10 per poll. So used the Peter leaving/Welch coming as a divider, if you will, between era/lineups

Just to keep going with this, Behind the Mask and Time could be considered two different eras, since the band had a major overall in members.

So lets see, we got the Pre-Rumours Peter Green blues era, the Pre-Rumours Peter leaves what the hell do we do era, the Pre-Rumours Bob Welch era, the Rumours 75-79 era, the Rumours Mirage/half of Tango album era, the Post-Rumours Tango tour/Behind the Mask era, the 2 in between Post-Rumours eras '92 "The Chain" and brief Rumours reunion with the inaugaration era, the new Post-Rumours Time era, the new new Post-Rumours Rumours era The Dance era, the post-Christine post Rumours Say You Will era, the middle era where FM did nothing, the Post-Rumours Unleashed era, and of course the post-Christine Post-Rumours Post unleashed era era....Am I missing something, of yeah and for the Future the "is FM doing anything in 2011 post-unleashed, Post-Rumours era"

Just redesign the Ledge and this will work out great! :p :lol:

[SuperFleetwood]

im sorry for raising my voice!

[HomerMcvie]

*Hugs* He wasn't putting you down. Just expressing his own opinion as we in a Democracy do.

Listen folks. I feel like there's a little tension in this thread at the moment. Now can we all please take a few deep breaths of the lovely air, maybe have a cup of Tea and come and sit with me for a cuggle? *Breaks out her Guitar and starts up a chorus of Kumbayah*

Adults discuss things, without anger. There's no tension here on my part. Only disagreement.

So bring it on...:mad: I'll bear hug each and every person here.:wavey:

[holidayroad]

Maybe there really should be a section for each album!

[SuperFleetwood]

good point!

I step away for 30 minutes and look what happens! :laugh:

First of all, on the Stevie forum, they seem to consider each album as an "era":confused:. I can imagine doing that w/FM and their 18 or so albums. To me (my opinion) an era/lineup, which Villavic began this with, are one and the same as far as FM is concerned. Other bands I don't really now and/or care about.

Now unless the owners/operators? of the Ledge add another FM forum for 1997(8) till the present, I suppose that "era" falls into the Rumours forum.

On the Pre-Rumours forum, I divided the nominations up into 2 parts. I didn't really want to but it had to be done. 13 songs with a limit of 10 per poll. So used the Peter leaving/Welch coming as a divider, if you will, between era/lineups

Just to keep going with this, Behind the Mask and Time could be considered two different eras, since the band had a major overall in members.

So lets see, we got the Pre-Rumours Peter Green blues era, the Pre-Rumours Peter leaves what the hell do we do era, the Pre-Rumours Bob Welch era, the Rumours 75-79 era, the Rumours Mirage/half of Tango album era, the Post-Rumours Tango tour/Behind the Mask era, the 2 in between Post-Rumours eras '92 "The Chain" and brief Rumours reunion with the inaugaration era, the new Post-Rumours Time era, the new new Post-Rumours Rumours era The Dance era, the post-Christine post Rumours Say You Will era, the middle era where FM did nothing, the Post-Rumours Unleashed era, and of course the post-Christine Post-Rumours Post unleashed era era....Am I missing something, of yeah and for the Future the "is FM doing anything in 2011 post-unleashed, Post-Rumours era"

Just redesign the Ledge and this will work out great! :p :lol:

[SuperFleetwood]

yeah holidayroad has a great point!

Maybe there really should be a section for each album!

[Silver Springs]

Adults discuss things, without anger. There's no tension here on my part. Only disagreement.

So bring it on...:mad: I'll bear hug each and every person here.:wavey:

That's very good to know :) I'm sorry I grouped all in the thread as adding to the tension, but distributing fairly the comment (hopefully) helps to calm the situation. Nobody likes to be singled out, after all :) I probably didn't help either and I'm perfectly willing to admit to that.

*Rugby tackles you for the first huggle*

[SuperFleetwood]

thats nice!!!
That's very good to know :) I'm sorry I grouped all in the thread as adding to the tension, but distributing fairly the comment (hopefully) helps to calm the situation. Nobody likes to be singled out, after all :) I probably didn't help either and I'm perfectly willing to admit to that.

*Rugby tackles you for the first huggle*

[HomerMcvie]

That's very good to know :) I'm sorry I grouped all in the thread as adding to the tension, but distributing fairly the comment (hopefully) helps to calm the situation. Nobody likes to be singled out, after all :) I probably didn't help either and I'm perfectly willing to admit to that.

*Rugby tackles you for the first huggle*

When you post something, full of opinion, you should EXPECT someone here to challenge your opinion. I wasn't singling anyone out, only challenging your post.

*sidesteps huggle*
*try again*:woohoo:

[SuperFleetwood]

Homer, sorry for raising my voice!

When you post something, full of opinion, you should EXPECT someone here to challenge your opinion. I wasn't singling anyone out, only challenging your post.

*sidesteps huggle*
*try again*:woohoo:

[Silver Springs]

When you post something, full of opinion, you should EXPECT someone here to challenge your opinion. I wasn't singling anyone out, only challenging your post.

*sidesteps huggle*
*try again*:woohoo:

I wasn't saying that you were singleing anybody out. I was saying that it was something I personally was trying to avoid doing

*pouts and stands in the corner*

[SuperFleetwood]

i believe the chain should win, the chain has been on all of there setlists!

[MacShadowsBall]

Just to clarify to everybody, I asked Silver Springs to be the tiebreaker and arbiter for these nominations. So lets get back to discussing these songs.

Thanks...:)

[Silver Springs]

i believe the chain should win, the chain has been on all of there setlists!

That's one way to pick a favourite, lol :) Personally, I don't think that a "safe" option is usually the best to pick. Storms wasn't a safe option when it was first picked for the Unleashed Tour as a regular and that went down very well. Some have gone down like lead balloons. Not that it's on the list, just using it as an example hehe. I think that it's the more overlooked of the songs, the less played and thus with less noteriety, that often turn out to be the best.

[SuperFleetwood]

good point...
That's one way to pick a favourite, lol :) Personally, I don't think that a "safe" option is usually the best to pick. Storms wasn't a safe option when it was first picked for the Unleashed Tour as a regular and that went down very well. Some have gone down like lead balloons. Not that it's on the list, just using it as an example hehe. I think that it's the more overlooked of the longs, the less played and thus with less noteriety, that often turn out to be the best.

[MissLadyLoki]

I don't believe i started all this all cause I actually voiced my opinion for once. I'm so very sorry I caused all this for everyone and now that i think of it, i don't think i'm of much use here :distress: *slinks away back into shadows*

[Silver Springs]

I don't believe i started all this all cause I actually voiced my opinion for once. I'm so very sorry I caused all this for everyone and now that i think of it, i don't think i'm of much use here :distress: *slinks away back into shadows*

You didn't cause anything. Nobody did. It was just a...spirited and passionate debate lol. *hugs* Come for a virtual Cup Of Tea via PM with me and you'll be reet *Heads off into the sunset with her Cassie-doodle*

[MissLadyLoki]

You didn't cause anything. Nobody did. It was just a...spirited and passionate debate lol. *hugs* Come for a virtual Cup Of Tea via PM with me and you'll be reet *Heads off into the sunset with her Cassie-doodle*

Oh and before I forget Homer, I'm not telling you my age, but I follow logic perfectly fine, and just to let you know, saying that to me before made me feel inferior

[MacShadowsBall]

I don't believe i started all this all cause I actually voiced my opinion for once. I'm so very sorry I caused all this for everyone and now that i think of it, i don't think i'm of much use here :distress: *slinks away back into shadows*

Cassie, you didn't start all this. Neither did Silver Springs...

Some people like to argue over wording...personally that's being nickpicky.

[HomerMcvie]

I don't believe i started all this all cause I actually voiced my opinion for once. I'm so very sorry I caused all this for everyone and now that i think of it, i don't think i'm of much use here :distress: *slinks away back into shadows*

Is there something BAD going on here?
Speak your opinion, whenever you like. Just be ready for it to be challenged. Discussion is healthy, and honestly, is what keeps a forum alive. :thumbsup:
Now stop running in the shadows!

[SuperFleetwood]

you didnt do anything!

Oh and before I forget Homer, I'm not telling you my age, but I follow logic perfectly fine, and just to let you know, saying that to me before made me feel inferior

[MissLadyLoki]

Cassie, you didn't start all this. Neither did Silver Springs...

Some people like to argue over wording...personally that's being nickpicky.

I gotta agree with you: sometimes we make a typo or have trouble wording something and then some folks flip out. Still, this made me very upset :(

[SuperFleetwood]

I Agree!!!!!
Is there something BAD going on here?
Speak your opinion, whenever you like. Just be ready for it to be challenged. Discussion is healthy, and honestly, is what keeps a forum alive. :thumbsup:
Now stop running in the shadows!

[HomerMcvie]

Oh and before I forget Homer, I'm not telling you my age, but I follow logic perfectly fine, and just to let you know, saying that to me before made me feel inferior

That wasn't my intent. But I would guess you as younger, only because you seemed to only be able to see your side of the issue, and no one else's(which is usually typical of younger posters). I won't guess an age, out of respect.

Now, where's that internet hug?:woohoo:

[MissLadyLoki]

Is there something BAD going on here?
Speak your opinion, whenever you like. Just be ready for it to be challenged. Discussion is healthy, and honestly, is what keeps a forum alive. :thumbsup:
Now stop running in the shadows!

Anyways, forgetting about eras and junk, I wanna voice sometimes, but I'm just afraid of getting yelled at and put down

[MissLadyLoki]

That wasn't my intent. But I would guess you as younger, only because you seemed to only be able to see your side of the issue, and no one else's(which is usually typical of younger posters). I won't guess an age, out of respect.

Now, where's that internet hug?:woohoo:

I'll give you a hug then, but I'm not that young. I'm 20 and I've only been a fan for only 2 years, so it's hard to know that much about the band without asking my parents and I do understand other opinions, but with my stress lately, I haven't been thinking clearly

[SuperFleetwood]

if you need to ask me anything you can always pm me!
I'll give you a hug then, but I'm not that young. I'm 20 and I've only been a fan for only 2 years, so it's hard to know that much about the band without asking my parents and I do understand other opinions, but with my stress lately, I haven't been thinking clearly

[Silver Springs]

--------------------------------

*Draws imaginary line under the sand*

So songs. What do people think?

Do you all think Go Your Own Way is the Pony to bet on? It's had quite a good record to date in polls, the last one absolutely blowing its fellow contenders out of the water.

[SuperFleetwood]

the chain is one!

--------------------------------

*Draws imaginary line under the sand*

So songs. What do people think?

Do you all think Go Your Own Way is the Pony to bet on? It's had quite a good record to date in polls, the last one absolutely blowing its fellow contenders out of the water.

[MacShadowsBall]

The Chain is a good song and all, but I never really got the love that it gets - the album version that is. Now I love the numerous live versions, but the album version not so much.

[Silver Springs]

The Chain is a good song and all, but I never really got the love that it gets - the album version that is. Now I love the numerous live versions, but the album version not so much.

Some songs are meant to be enjoyed live far more than they are in the somewhat insulated space of a studio. I always found Tusk, for example, alot more enjoyable live. Because you get the feeling that the song needs all that arm flailing, dramatic gestures and animalistic performance to make it what it is. For me it doesn't have the same edge when it's all prerecorded and stock still. And speaking of The Chain, I think it may be a case of familiarity breeding contempt with me. I've heard John's riff so many times on Formula One that all it means to me is that the Racing is about to start lol. And I'm not a fan of watching Sports of any kind, so the connotations make me feel a little less loving towards it.

[TerraRhiannon]

^^I find almost all songs better live, there's just something about them that come alive more than they do in the studio.
I much more prefer the Dance version of Bleed To Love Her for instance more than the cleaned up studio version.

[michelej1]

Which irks me to no end, because it ISN'T. :mad: No Christine, NOT Rumours era. To me Rumours-era is: Mick, John, Chris, Lindsey, Stevie...as a unit. Hence, '75 album, Rumours, Tusk, Live (1980), Mirage, Tango In The Night, most of tie 1988 Greatest Hits, The Dance.



I thought it irked you when we called those 5 people the Rumours era. We've finally bent you to our will on that one, eh? You're getting soft Chili.

Now, is it also official that we can call the 1975 LP the White album?

Michele

[TerraRhiannon]

Which irks me to no end, because it ISN'T. :mad: No Christine, NOT Rumours era. To me Rumours-era is: Mick, John, Chris, Lindsey, Stevie...as a unit. Hence, '75 album, Rumours, Tusk, Live (1980), Mirage, Tango In The Night, most of tie 1988 Greatest Hits, The Dance.



I just call Say You Will the Rumours lineup because it is the Rumours lineup just minus Christine. Before anyone kills me, in BTM Lindsey wasn't in the lineup...but they replaced him with another guitar player. In Time Stevie was replaced with Bekka.. Chris wasn't really replaced in Say You Will... that's my reasoning. It was Stevie, Lindsey, Mick & John, they didn't add anyone. I dunno...

[MacShadowsBall]

Some songs are meant to be enjoyed live far more than they are in the somewhat insulated space of a studio.

^^I find almost all songs better live, there's just something about them that come alive more than they do in the studio.
I much more prefer the Dance version of Bleed To Love Her for instance more than the cleaned up studio version.

...but on the other side of the coin is "Gypsy" where the live versions are no where near the awesome greatness that it is on Mirage.

[Silver Springs]

...but on the other side of the coin is "Gypsy" where the live versions are no where near the awesome greatness that it is on Mirage.

Ah. Touche ;) I always did prefer Bleed To Love her as an album track, rather than performed live. I never managed to put my finger on it, but when listening to it live it sounds ever so slightly shambolic. But that's just me lol.

[MacShadowsBall]

Speaking of SYW, doesn't look like "Thrown Down" is gonna win Favorite FM song! :laugh:

[TerraRhiannon]

Speaking of SYW, doesn't look like "Thrown Down" is gonna win Favorite FM song! :laugh:

It's a great song but up against the likes of Rhiannon, The Chain, Gypsy....no chance-o-la. I'm surprised by the lack of votes You Make Loving Fun has gotten. (Or hasn't gotten)

[Silver Springs]

Speaking of SYW, doesn't look like "Thrown Down" is gonna win Favorite FM song! :laugh:

Not altogether surprising, but at least it got this far in the polls :p. We lost so many good soldiers in those battles *Has a moment of silence for them*

[MacShadowsBall]

... We lost so many good soldiers in those battles *Has a moment of silence for them*

Yeah just recently we lost Gold Dust Woman, Silver Springs, Tusk, Tango in the Night, and Say You Love Me.

This is like the 81st reply...tomorrow morning everybody is gonna be like "what on earth happened here!" :laugh:

[Silver Springs]

Yeah just recently we lost Gold Dust Woman, Silver Springs, Tusk, Tango in the Night, and Say You Love Me.

This is like the 81st reply...tomorrow morning everybody is gonna be like "what on earth happened here!" :laugh:

Yeah. I should break out my black veil for Silver Springs alone lol :p

Hehe. It's a talking point for years to come "Back in the win'er o' twen'y ten...." hehe.

[MissLadyLoki]

Yeah. I should break out my black veil for Silver Springs alone lol :p

Hehe. It's a talking point for years to come "Back in the win'er o' twen'y ten...." hehe.

I can even see you doing it too Bee :lol:

As for songs live, anyone here ever hear that acoustic Gypsy live? Now that is seriously awesome, but I wish it wasn't a one-shot

[MacShadowsBall]

...As for songs live, anyone here ever hear that acoustic Gypsy live? Now that is seriously awesome, but I wish it wasn't a one-shot

I didn't know they did a live acoustic version of Gypsy...so I check youtube, and lo and behold I found...

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/m5HeRgOVOMw?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/m5HeRgOVOMw?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

[elle]

The FM to which I refer, is NOT FM from 1979. Or 1982. Or 1987. Or 1997.
The FM to which I'm referring, is the lounge act that they've become, NOW, with all that idiotic "shipper" crap in the set.

I think you have to separate the post-1998-era FM in concert from the album they released. You cannot say that SYW album is milking Rumours formula any more than you can say that about the Tusk album.

[bluefox4000]

Had to go with Go Your Own Way and The Chain

Mick

[bluefox4000]

...but on the other side of the coin is "Gypsy" where the live versions are no where near the awesome greatness that it is on Mirage.

Or Go your Own Way. Nothing matches the studio version of that song.:thumbsup:

Mick

[HomerMcvie]

I think you have to separate the post-1998-era FM in concert from the album they released. You cannot say that SYW album is milking Rumours formula any more than you can say that about the Tusk album.
I'm speaking of them LIVE, thus my mention of "set".

[elle]

I'm speaking of them LIVE, thus my mention of "set".

sure, but you also appear to be claiming that after Christine left they became lounge act, period - and only trying to capitalize on Rumours without doing anything new...:D or at least that's how what you were saying came accross.

(PS i am old and usually see more sides of the issue than there actually are:p)

[GypsySorcerer]

These threads take such interesting turns on here. :laugh:

I agree with chiliD on this one-- I think SYW belongs as Post-Rumours. Like BTM, it's missing a member of the "Rumours" line-up. On a side note, SYW to me is Buckingham Nicks II with special guests McVie and Fleetwood. I really missed Christine's presence. :(

[elle]

SYW to me is Buckingham Nicks II with special guests McVie and Fleetwood. I really missed Christine's presence. :(

or as Mick said - BN up in the front with FM right behind them:lol:

i think Chiristine absence is what made SYW appear so non-cohesive.

[mylittledemon]

Nothing says Fleetwood Mac quite like "The Chain"... for me, it's always the winner.

[tilthefirefades]

My God, this thread really blew up :laugh:

I voted for Rhiannon and Gypsy. Both are musical masterpieces, and there aren't very many other songs that will ever compare to their quality. Same goes for every other song on this poll (except Thrown Down).

On the topic of whether SYW is Rumours era or not, I think the difference is that they didn't replace Christine, whereas they replaced Lindsey and Stevie. If someone already said that, sorry, I didn't feel like reading 47 pages of Homer and Chili fussing ;)

[louielouie2000]

I didn't know they did a live acoustic version of Gypsy...so I check youtube, and lo and behold I found...

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/m5HeRgOVOMw?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/m5HeRgOVOMw?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

God, I'd forgotten how awesome that version was. It's been so long since I've heard it. I think some of Stevie's best live vocals came from that AHI show... her voice was just buttery and strong.

[louielouie2000]

Nothing says Fleetwood Mac quite like "The Chain"... for me, it's always the winner.

I agree... that song is the very definition of Fleetwood Mac. I chose it and Sara. Sara is Stevie's opus, it's just epic.

[HomerMcvie]

I didn't feel like reading 47 pages of Homer and Chili fussing ;)

OMFG. Have I really reached curmudgeon status?:shocked::p:D
Unless I missed something, Chili and I haven't had an issue in this thread!

[Meowi]

The Chain keeps everyone together.

[HomerMcvie]

sure, but you also appear to be claiming that after Christine left they became lounge act, period - and only trying to capitalize on Rumours without doing anything new...:D or at least that's how what you were saying came accross.

(PS i am old and usually see more sides of the issue than there actually are:p)

You know, it's been pointed out before, not by me, that The Dance, was the beginning of the sellout(CASH FREAKING RETIREMENT COW).
Just sayin'.
But come on SN and LB, stop holding each other's hands, mocking something that ended more than half your lifespan ago.
Sad and pathetic, IMO.

[CreepingDeath]

I didn't know they did a live acoustic version of Gypsy...so I check youtube, and lo and behold I found...

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/m5HeRgOVOMw?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/m5HeRgOVOMw?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

I've been to several AHI benefits and this remains my favorite moment.

Anyway, I voted for Rhiannon and The Chain.

[holidayroad]

But come on SN and LB, stop holding each other's hands, mocking something that ended more than half your lifespan ago.
Sad and pathetic, IMO.

I do agree that they could do without the 'shipping'. When I became a fan of FM (1987), they weren't doing much of that. So, in 1997 when I see the hugging, holding hands, kissing etc., I'm thinking "???":confused::lol: I guess it would have been okay for The Dance concert....one time for Lindsey and Stevie to show that they don't hate each other. Everything after has been completely unnecessary.

[Villavic]

I step away for 30 minutes and look what happens! :laugh:

First of all, on the Stevie forum, they seem to consider each album as an "era":confused:. I can imagine doing that w/FM and their 18 or so albums. To me (my opinion) an era/lineup, which Villavic began this with, are one and the same as far as FM is concerned. Other bands I don't really now and/or care about.


oopss... when I started it, I knew there will be some discussion, but couldn't imagine I would start that fire :laugh::laugh:

Anyway, though I had my own opinion about "eras", I voted on this poll, and glad to see The Chain is winning.. ;)

[elle]

You know, it's been pointed out before, not by me, that The Dance, was the beginning of the sellout(CASH FREAKING RETIREMENT COW).
Just sayin'.

agree, was just thinking the same. the Dance, SYW, and Unleashed tours seem awfully similar in that respect;)

[TerraRhiannon]

On the topic of whether SYW is Rumours era or not, I think the difference is that they didn't replace Christine, whereas they replaced Lindsey and Stevie. If someone already said that, sorry, I didn't feel like reading 47 pages of Homer and Chili fussing ;)

YES! That was exactly my argument on how Say You Will is definitely a Rumours era album. IN BTM They replaced Lindsey... in Time they replaced Stevie with Bekka....Christine was never replaced. She left, that was that. Rumours era minus one. A sad minus one, though. I ♥ U, Christine :)If they would have replaced her with Jane Doe, then I might not have considered it a Rumours Lineup for sure.

[MissLadyLoki]

Yes! The Chain is creaming the competition! Still, I'm surprised Rhiannon hasn't gotten more votes

[tilthefirefades]

You know, it's been pointed out before, not by me, that The Dance, was the beginning of the sellout(CASH FREAKING RETIREMENT COW).
Just sayin'.
But come on SN and LB, stop holding each other's hands, mocking something that ended more than half your lifespan ago.
Sad and pathetic, IMO.

There is really no excuse for why they do either of these things :shrug: I find the whole shipper thing to be corny and embarrassing. I don't even buy it on Silver Springs from The Dance. An occasional glance is ok, but an entire 30 second awkward stare down is not natural. As for cash cow, I think it's because they went so long without any new successful material, that they are trying to make up for it by playing it safe to reclaim their lost fans.

YES! That was exactly my argument on how Say You Will is definitely a Rumours era album. IN BTM They replaced Lindsey... in Time they replaced Stevie with Bekka....Christine was never replaced. She left, that was that. Rumours era minus one. A sad minus one, though. I ♥ U, Christine :)If they would have replaced her with Jane Doe, then I might not have considered it a Rumours Lineup for sure.

I would say that it's because Christine is irreplaceable, but I've thought that of every member of Fleetwood Mac. Especially Bob Welch, Stevie, and Lindsey. I think that at that point in time though, after saving their asses from the atrocity of Time, they didn't want to screw up again and just went with the whole BN up front, FM in the back.

[MacShadowsBall]

Geez, Christine's songs ain't doing to well...:(

[tilthefirefades]

Geez, Christine's songs ain't doing to well...:(

As much as I love Little Lies and You Make Loving Fun, they just don't compare to the others. Had Over & Over, Songbird, Brown Eyes, or Isn't it Midnight made it, I would have voted for her.

[chiliD]

I thought it irked you when we called those 5 people the Rumours era. We've finally bent you to our will on that one, eh? You're getting soft Chili.

Now, is it also official that we can call the 1975 LP the White album?

Michele

Hell, no...there's only ONE "White Album"...that double one by those lads from Liverpool.

The '75 album is called Fleetwood Mac...it is distinguished from Fleetwood Mac's first album which had the same title due to THAT one's nickname of "Dog & Dustbin".

[Silver Springs]

Hell, no...there's only ONE "White Album"...that double one by those lads from Liverpool.

The '75 album is called Fleetwood Mac...it is distinguished from Fleetwood Mac's first album which had the same title due to THAT one's nickname of "Dog & Dustbin".

I'm glad I'm not the only one who's christened the album "Dog & Dustbin". I even named it officially as such on my iPod :p

[SuperFleetwood]

NOT Really!!! the white album rocks!
Hell, no...there's only ONE "White Album"...that double one by those lads from Liverpool.

The '75 album is called Fleetwood Mac...it is distinguished from Fleetwood Mac's first album which had the same title due to THAT one's nickname of "Dog & Dustbin".

[chiliD]

CHILLID, PLEASE GET THE FACTS STRAIGHT!!! IVE BEEN A ADDICTED FLEETWOOD MAC ADDICT FOR 6 YEARS NOW!!! OHH AND ANOTHER THING ABOUT SAY YOU WILL, SO WHAT IF CHRISTINE MCVIE ISN'T THERE, REMEBER HER VOCALS ARE ON BACKUP ON MOST SONGS!!!!! I KNOW!!!

First off...spell my username correctly.

Second...I've been a Fleetwood Mac addict pretty much since the band formed in '67...wanna keep going on that line of pissing? I've got a tape measure handy, as well, if you wanna start measuring.

Third..."yelling"?? REALLY?

Next..."Facts"?? She makes an appearance on just a couple of songs, not "most". I've listened to the album numerous times through headphones, I know what she sounds like vocally, I know her keyboard "style. If she was in on the original recording sessions, she's been taken out of the final mix of the album. Kind of like an actor's part in a movie getting "left on the cutting room floor". Sure, there's still two or three songs where she's obvious in the final mix, as well. But, that doesn't make it the Rumours era lineup any more than Lindsey making cameo appearances on BTM & Time. Christine's participation on SYW is "cameo" at best.

[Silver Springs]

I'm sorry, but for Buddha sake. Do we really want a repeat of what happened last night? Everybody just chill out and stop getting so touchy. It's all well and good having opinions and sharing them constructively and diplomatically, which I may add does NOT include flaming, but it's quite another to treat your opinions as the God's honest truth.

[chiliD]

NOT Really!!! the white album rocks!

Yeah, especially "Back In The USSR", "Revolution #1", "While My Guitar Gently Weeps", "Birthday" & "Yer Blues". And, let's not forget "Helter Skelter", too!!

[MacShadowsBall]

Hey, how's everybody doing tonight? Good I hope! :xoxo:

The Chain and Go Your Own Way are doing really well here. Remember that the top 4 songs move on and the others will be out of the battle!

[MissLadyLoki]

Hey, how's everybody doing tonight? Good I hope! :xoxo:

The Chain and Go Your Own Way are doing really well here. Remember that the top 4 songs move on and the others will be out of the battle!

Looks like it's gonna be The Chain, Rhiannon, Go Your Own Way, and Gypsy going onto the next round. Now I dunno who i'm gonna vote for next round

[chiliD]

Yeah i'm calmer too. Let's talk about something else related to Rumours...like how I'm such a nerd, I stole my dad's vinyl copy

And Chili, no offense, but from what I know about you, you were a fan when you were 11? :shrug:

Yes. 11 1/2, actually. :lol: I was just learning guitar (after 4 years of yucky piano lessons playing all that Beethoven & Chopin crap....yes, David...crap! :laugh: ) and anything I heard that was guitar oriented intrigued me. Being as how my parents both came from large families, I had lots of older cousins who turned me on to a LOT of music at a young age. However, other than the initial wave of the early 60's "British Invasion" bands (Beatles, Stones, Animals, Kinks, etc) Fleetwood Mac was one of the first artists I discovered on my own...there were very few people my age (or a tad older) in my locality who even knew of them for the first couple of years of their existence anyway. It was one of the first bands that I actually turned on my older cousins to.

Ok, let me clear something up, while I'm here...I don't get the resistance to SYW being called "Post-Rumours"...I'm getting a feeling that people are assuming because I consider it that, I DISLIKE the album...not the case at all, I really like it...A LOT!! (with a couple of songs as exceptions). In all the pre-album hype, both Lindsey & Stevie kept saying how it was "the best stuff they'd done in a long time" etc, etc. But once the "show hit the road", you've thought that they were embarrassed by the album...they didn't back up their words; they fell back on the cushy comfort of Rumours, etc. (oh and regards to Tusk...no, it didn't sound like Rumours because Lindsey intentionally didn't want it to...BUT, it ONLY sounded the way it did BECAUSE of the whole Rumours phenomena...I'm convinced that had Rumours NOT sold as much as it did, their follow-up album would've sounded quite a bit more similar. Ken Caillat has said in an interview or two that the Tusk songs sounded quite like Rumours but Lindsey was so afraid of it "being the same" had he & Richard tweak the EQ to give it a whole different sound. Hence, the "Anti-Rumours" quality of Tusk.

[MissLadyLoki]

Yes. 11 1/2, actually. :lol: I was just learning guitar (after 4 years of yucky piano lessons playing all that Beethoven & Chopin crap....yes, David...crap! :laugh: ) and anything I heard that was guitar oriented intrigued me. Being as how my parents both came from large families, I had lots of older cousins who turned me on to a LOT of music at a young age. However, other than the initial wave of the early 60's "British Invasion" bands (Beatles, Stones, Animals, Kinks, etc) Fleetwood Mac was one of the first artists I discovered on my own...there were very few people my age (or a tad older) in my locality who even knew of them for the first couple of years of their existence anyway.

Ok, let me clear something up, while I'm here...I don't get the resistance to SYW being called "Post-Rumours"...I'm getting a feeling that people are assuming because I consider it that, I DISLIKE the album...not the case at all, I really like it...A LOT!! (with a couple of songs as exceptions). In all the pre-album hype, both Lindsey & Stevie kept saying how it was "the best stuff they'd done in a long time" etc, etc. But once the "show hit the road", you've thought that they were embarrassed by the album...they didn't back up their words; they fell back on the cushy comfort of Rumours, etc. (oh and regards to Tusk...no, it didn't sound like Rumours because Lindsey intentionally didn't want it to...BUT, it ONLY sounded the way it did BECAUSE of the whole Rumours phenomena...I'm convinced that had Rumours NOT sold as much as it did, their follow-up album would've sounded quite a bit more similar. Ken Caillat has said in an interview or two that the Tusk songs sounded quite like Rumours but Lindsey was so afraid of it "being the same" had he & Richard tweak the EQ to give it a whole different sound. Hence, the "Anti-Rumours" quality of Tusk.

When i was 11, I was probably listening to the pop on the radio, but i was an odd kid that enjoyed the stuff my parents would play on our big stereo, such as The Who (still a fave to this day). When i was in junior high and high school, i was pretty much the anti-rocker, listening to rap and whatnot, but when i started college, i saw the light, as my parents like to say :lol:

Yeah, I remember hearing about Lindsey intentionally not making Tusk sound like Rumours cause it sold a lot, but what does EQ stand for?

And as for cousins, all my cousins are older too, but all I got out of it was one that is 15 years older than me introducing me to the world of thrash metal, and I can't play guitar for the life of me (I had trouble lining up the notes on the staff in the book I got, which was the same exact problem i had in accounting with that damn columnar pad my professor made us use, and why couldn't he let us use Excel for homework, i dunno), so the closest thing so far for me has been Guitar Hero on my Wii (and do not ask me to get that controller out of the neck anytime soon :lol:)

[chiliD]

When i was 11, I was probably listening to the pop on the radio, but i was an odd kid that enjoyed the stuff my parents would play on our big stereo, such as The Who (still a fave to this day). When i was in junior high and high school, i was pretty much the anti-rocker, listening to rap and whatnot, but when i started college, i saw the light, as my parents like to say :lol:

Considering my parents' music was all that pre-rock & roll stuff: Doris Day, Perry Como, Nelson Riddle Orchestra, etc. The only one who piqued my interest was Les Paul & Mary Ford because they sounded light years ahead of anyone else.

Yeah, I remember hearing about Lindsey intentionally not making Tusk sound like Rumours cause it sold a lot, but what does EQ stand for?

EQ = "equalization"...a "simple" EQ are the "treble" & "bass" knobs on your stereo. In a recording studio, they have EQs that are adjustable in various frequencies in the human hearing range 25Hz (Hertz...the measurement of sound frequency) to 25KHz (dogs can hear even higher frequencies)

And as for cousins, all my cousins are older too, but all I got out of it was one that is 15 years older than me introducing me to the world of thrash metal, and I can't play guitar for the life of me (I had trouble lining up the notes on the staff in the book I got, which was the same exact problem i had in accounting with that damn columnar pad my professor made us use, and why couldn't he let us use Excel for homework, i dunno), so the closest thing so far for me has been Guitar Hero on my Wii

Music & Math...forever linked in the human mind. :laugh:

[MissLadyLoki]

Considering my parents' music was all that pre-rock & roll stuff: Doris Day, Perry Como, Nelson Riddle Orchestra, etc. The only one who piqued my interest was Les Paul & Mary Ford because they sounded light years ahead of anyone else.



EQ = "equalization"...a "simple" EQ are the "treble" & "bass" knobs on your stereo. In a recording studio, they have EQs that are adjustable in various frequencies in the human hearing range 25Hz (Hertz...the measurement of sound frequency) to 25KHz (dogs can hear even higher frequencies)



Music & Math...forever linked in the human mind. :laugh:

Les Paul...I must say he did make good guitars, especially the sunburst used by my man Jimmy Page (as you probably know by now, I am indeed obsessed with Led Zeppelin :laugh:)

In regard to music and math, I love listening to music, but I hate math! In the spring, i almost failed precalc (then again, that class, like the basic science classes, since Stony Brook is a very science-heavy school, was designed to weed out people who weren't meant to go onto higher classes, and I just needed it as a prereq for a few business classes) and I've always had a hard time with it, but accounting was such a pain in the ass

[SuperFleetwood]

Im not getting in it with you chilid! and if i feel great about something, i will make sure i put my opinion, and a measuring tape, really!! i know christine mcvie very well!! i collect fleetwood mac and alot of it! just to let u know!


First off...spell my username correctly.

Second...I've been a Fleetwood Mac addict pretty much since the band formed in '67...wanna keep going on that line of pissing? I've got a tape measure handy, as well, if you wanna start measuring.

Third..."yelling"?? REALLY?

Next..."Facts"?? She makes an appearance on just a couple of songs, not "most". I've listened to the album numerous times through headphones, I know what she sounds like vocally, I know her keyboard "style. If she was in on the original recording sessions, she's been taken out of the final mix of the album. Kind of like an actor's part in a movie getting "left on the cutting room floor". Sure, there's still two or three songs where she's obvious in the final mix, as well. But, that doesn't make it the Rumours era lineup any more than Lindsey making cameo appearances on BTM & Time. Christine's participation on SYW is "cameo" at best.

[MacShadowsBall]

Due to the various discussions that have compromised the integrity of my nominations for Favorite Rumours Era song, I have started a new thread about the Say You Will Rumours/Post Rumours debate.

Please keep this thread about the "battle of the songs", and NOT about the "Battle of the Ledgies"! I really would appreciate it alot!:xoxo:

[HomerMcvie]

I'm sorry, but for Buddha sake. Do we really want a repeat of what happened last night? Everybody just chill out and stop getting so touchy. It's all well and good having opinions and sharing them constructively and diplomatically, which I may add does NOT include flaming, but it's quite another to treat your opinions as the God's honest truth.So what happened last night? People stating their opinions, and discussion going on? That's what a forum is. It seems like this place has become MUCH like the Seven Wonders board, lately. Fairies and glitter, and sh*t like that. With no dissension(I spell dissention, but spell checker is correcting me) of opinion.
Folks, the forums are about discussion. Discussion oftens leads to disagreement. If you can't HANDLE someone disagreeing with you, well then you probably can't handle the heat associated with you posting.
I was flaming NO ONE last night, only offering my opinions. Adults discuss. Children hide. Discussion is what keeps a forum alive. A bunch of "oh, the sun shines out of Stevie's ass" posts, with no disagreement,....well, that's Seven Wonders. And I've not visited there, for a couple of years.
Now, cmon, group hug, and let's talk about this sh*t!

[Silver Springs]

So what happened last night? People stating their opinions, and discussion going on? That's what a forum is. It seems like this place has become MUCH like the Seven Wonders board, lately. Fairies and glitter, and sh*t like that. With no dissension(I spell dissention, but spell checker is correcting me) of opinion.
Folks, the forums are about discussion. Discussion oftens leads to disagreement. If you can't HANDLE someone disagreeing with you, well then you probably can't handle the heat associated with you posting.
I was flaming NO ONE last night, only offering my opinions. Adults discuss. Children hide. Discussion is what keeps a forum alive. A bunch of "oh, the sun shines out of Stevie's ass" posts, with no disagreement,....well, that's Seven Wonders. And I've not visited there, for a couple of years.
Now, cmon, group hug, and let's talk about this sh*t!

Again...didn't mention you so I fail to see why you're jumping on this post. And by flaming I mean TALKING LIKE THIS AS IS UNDERSTOOD BY BOARD POSTERS AS A FLAMING POST. Anyway. I'm not even going to bother because it isn't what this thread is about. It's about discussion of the songs listed within the poll.

[MissLadyLoki]

Group hug with Bee and David *Squeezes both*

Anyways, back to discussing these songs, I saw The Chain was winning and I just realized something, with the except of the Florence and the Machine version, there have been no good covers of it from what I've heard myself

EDIT: BTW, I was a bit tense last night, so I'm sorry

[MacShadowsBall]

Homer McVie I have started another thread about the Say You Will issue and would like for this thread to be about the songs nominations.

Thanks...:xoxo:

[Silver Springs]

Group hug with Bee and David *Squeezes both*

Anyways, back to discussing these songs, I saw The Chain was winning and I just realized something, with the except of the Florence and the Machine version, there have been no good covers of it from what I've heard myself

I don't think I've heard many bands do decent versions of a Mac song. In my opinion, the calibre of their songs intimidates people from actually attempting them. Though I wouldn't mind hearing "veteran" musicians, taking a whack at one of their songs. I'd give my left knee to hear Dylan take on Rhiannon and Gold Dust Woman.

[vivfox]

I'd give my left knee to head Dylan take on Rhiannon and Gold Dust Woman.


Where's that beer mug of yours? I think I need to barf into it.

[MissLadyLoki]

I don't think I've heard many bands do decent versions of a Mac song. In my opinion, the calibre of their songs intimidates people from actually attempting them. Though I wouldn't mind hearing "veteran" musicians, taking a whack at one of their songs. I'd give my left knee to head Dylan take on Rhiannon and Gold Dust Woman.

I do enjoy Hole's cover of Gold Dust Woman greatly, but I hate Tantric's version of The Chain (I found it one day when i was bored, hated it). Come to think of it, I hate many mac covers.

And speaking of long-time artists covering the Mac, I would sell an arm and a leg to hear Van Halen (Dave or Sammy, it doesn't matter) cover The Chain

[Silver Springs]

Where's that beer mug of yours? I think I need to barf into it.

What? It couldn't be any worse than Taylor Swift's attempts to Mac out lol. Or Lindsey Blow-han's either.

[elle]

In all the pre-album hype, both Lindsey & Stevie kept saying how it was "the best stuff they'd done in a long time" etc, etc. But once the "show hit the road", you've thought that they were embarrassed by the album...they didn't back up their words; they fell back on the cushy comfort of Rumours, etc.

I wondered about that... i was surprised how little of SYW they performed on that tour. Could that be one of the reasons Lindsey did Soundstage, performing mostly SYW stuff?

Although to be honest, general audiences do expect to hear hits. Thinking back of the first time i saw Bowie during the glass spider tour - his set was 90% new songs and maybe 2-3 biggest hits. I was dissapointed i didn't get to hear all the songs i loved so much. Conversely, Stones or Springsteen provided ~3hrs of biggest hits, new stuff, etc. That felt respectful of the audience and why most people were there - instead of just pushing the new stuff. (funny this was all in the 80s - i thought at the time how old all of them were and that was possibly my last opportunity to see them:laugh:)

[elle]

Looks like it's gonna be The Chain, Rhiannon, Go Your Own Way, and Gypsy going onto the next round. Now I dunno who i'm gonna vote for next round

nope, looks like the chain, rhiannon, gypsy, sara now

[Silver Springs]

nope, looks like the chain, rhiannon, gypsy, sara now

It's surprising really how badly GYoW is being trounced when it did so well in the last heat. I always had it pegged as one of the eponymous Mac songs, but evidently that's more in Lindsey's own perception lol.

[Artemis]

Group hug with Bee and David *Squeezes both*

Anyways, back to discussing these songs, I saw The Chain was winning and I just realized something, with the except of the Florence and the Machine version, there have been no good covers of it from what I've heard myself

EDIT: BTW, I was a bit tense last night, so I'm sorry

Yes yes yes! Love Florence's version of The Chain. It's brilliant, she captures everything the song's about, imo.

Although, for me, although the album version is supreme - Christine's vocals are like, an ear orgasm, and Stevie's voice sounds haunting - the definitive live version has to be from the Mirage tour. I could actually listen to that all day.

What? It couldn't be any worse than Taylor Swift's attempts to Mac out lol. Or Lindsey Blow-han's either.

Ew. Ew. Ew. Both crimes against music. Both utterly awful.

What has been heard, cannot be unheard. :(

[TerraRhiannon]

EDIT: BTW, I was a bit tense last night, so I'm sorry

Let's have cam sex again. :laugh:

kidding...we talked like normal human beings...well normal for us.

[MacShadowsBall]

The only "covers" of songs I tend to like are piano covers like these below....

Go Your Own Way

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The Chain

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[MissLadyLoki]

Yes yes yes! Love Florence's version of The Chain. It's brilliant, she captures everything the song's about, imo.

Although, for me, although the album version is supreme - Christine's vocals are like, an ear orgasm, and Stevie's voice sounds haunting - the definitive live version has to be from the Mirage tour. I could actually listen to that all day.



Ew. Ew. Ew. Both crimes against music. Both utterly awful.

What has been heard, cannot be unheard. :(

There's 3 reasons as to why the Mirage show rules, and they are The Chain, Not That Funny, and Sisters of the Moon (well, at least what I think, which reminds me, I need to use Video2MP3 on The Chain from that show)

As for the album version, to me, it's everything that makes the Mac awesome rolled into one song, but I came to appreciate it even more when I was listening to my copy of the remastered Rumours in my car one night when I was driving home from one of those many clubs I go to (I may commute, but I swear, I practically live at Stony Brook :laugh:). As I was listening, I was shcoked at all the different instruments I was hearing during the chorus that I had never noticed before (and maybe the fact that I had been listening to it as an MP3 on cheap headphones didn't exactly help :laugh:), such as guitar rips and organ playing, all buried in this song. i thought it was so cool.

Then again, I'm the nerd who thought it was cool when I listened to my new CD of Sticky Fingers on my big stereo and was surprised to hear Keith Richards strumming an acoustic guitar in the background during most of Brown Sugar

[elle]

It's surprising really how badly GYoW is being trounced when it did so well in the last heat. I always had it pegged as one of the eponymous Mac songs, but evidently that's more in Lindsey's own perception lol.

well, i said it before and will say it again - ledgie poll reflects preferences of the people here - which can be easily predicted from the numbers of posts, threads and views by the forum - and not necessarily general audiences (e.g., look at the latest RS greatest songs list - GYOW is the only FM song there - and large number of people here expressed huge disdain about that!). so, for Rumours-era members:

Rumours forum (8 Viewing) - 8,576 threads - 151,974 posts
Stevie Nicks (19 Viewing) - 9,745 threads - 218,220 posts
Lindsey Buckingham (5 Viewing) - 2,852 threads - 51,786 posts
Christine McVie (1 Viewing) - 875 threads - 17,876 posts

so Stevie appears to have about 4x the number of fans Lindsey does here, and ~10x the fans Christine does.

compare these numbers to results in this poll alone, so far:
Stevie - 15+12+14 votes - 41
Lindsey - 12 votes
Christine - 10 votes

Lindsey and Stevie numbers seem to hold - however Christine is actually doing excesivelly well considering!

[MacShadowsBall]

Oh, I love stats - opinions can sway but statistics don't lie. Stevie won all the Rumours era album finals except for Rumours and Tango in the Night which gave her more songs in these nominations. Meanwhile Christine for Rumours era only won the Tango album finals, yet YMLF won Favorite Christine song giving Christine 2 songs. Lindsey faired the worse with no album winners and GYOW winning Favorite Lindsey Song.

Basically here's how it played out...

Peter dominated Pre-Rumours Part 1
Christine dominated Pre-Rumours Part 2
Stevie dominated Rumours era
Christine dominated Post-Rumours

Now what gets interesting in on Dec 20th, the 2 winners of both the Pre-Rumours part 1 and Pre-Rumours part 2 join the top 4 winners from Rumours and the winner from the Post-Rumours. 9 songs - a wide variety of songs to match the wide variety of songs Fleetwood Mac have done since their beginning.

The questions is which vocalist will survive on to the finals on Dec 27th, which consists of the top 3 winners of the Dec 20th nominations.

[elle]

Oh, I love stats - opinions can sway but statistics don't lie.

yes, however stat results can be easily skewed if the initial setup and population interrogated leads to bias.

[mezzoforte]

well, i said it before and will say it again - ledgie poll reflects preferences of the people here - which can be easily predicted from the numbers of posts, threads and views by the forum - and not necessarily general audiences (e.g., look at the latest RS greatest songs list - GYOW is the only FM song there - and large number of people here expressed huge disdain about that!). so, for Rumours-era members:

Rumours forum (8 Viewing) - 8,576 threads - 151,974 posts
Stevie Nicks (19 Viewing) - 9,745 threads - 218,220 posts
Lindsey Buckingham (5 Viewing) - 2,852 threads - 51,786 posts
Christine McVie (1 Viewing) - 875 threads - 17,876 posts

so Stevie appears to have about 4x the number of fans Lindsey does here, and ~10x the fans Christine does.

compare these numbers to results in this poll alone, so far:
Stevie - 15+12+14 votes - 41
Lindsey - 12 votes
Christine - 10 votes

Lindsey and Stevie numbers seem to hold - however Christine is actually doing excesivelly well considering!

Well, I think looking at the number of posts and deducing the number of fans from it is giving those numbers a bit too much credit--especially when it comes to comparing Stevie to Chris. Stevie has had a much longer and more illutrious solo career. Particularly in the last decade, Stevie's given fans a lot more to talk about. That doesn't necessarily say anything about how people view their contributions to Fleetwood Mac.
I do think there's more loyalty to Stevie as an artist than to the others, and that loyalty is reflected in the voting in this countdown. But I think most Stevie fans are Chris fans as well (if not quite as intensely so), and the numbers of posts makes the disparity appear far larger than it is.

[CreepingDeath]

Well, I think looking at the number of posts and deducing the number of fans from it is giving those numbers a bit too much credit--especially when it comes to comparing Stevie to Chris. Stevie has had a much longer and more illutrious solo career. Particularly in the last decade, Stevie's given fans a lot more to talk about. That doesn't necessarily say anything about how people view their contributions to Fleetwood Mac.
I do think there's more loyalty to Stevie as an artist than to the others, and that loyalty is reflected in the voting in this countdown. But I think most Stevie fans are Chris fans as well (if not quite as intensely so), and the numbers of posts makes the disparity appear far larger than it is.

I definitely fall into this category. If a Stevie song doesn't win, then I hope Christine's will, or vica versa. Except for a few exceptions, you can just flush Lindsey as far as I'm concerned.

[elle]

Well, I think looking at the number of posts and deducing the number of fans from it is giving those numbers a bit too much credit--especially when it comes to comparing Stevie to Chris.
...
That doesn't necessarily say anything about how people view their contributions to Fleetwood Mac.

if you re-read my post, the point i tried to get across (obviously unsuccessfully!) was that you can use the number of threads/posts/activity on the ledge for each member to predict the outcome of the outgoing poll. and, that opinions expressed on the ledge do not neccesarily reflect opinions of the general public.

i can go through Peter etc forum numbers too (but i'm too lazy right now), and predict the outcome of the whole poll. i've done it for some of the individual polls before, just ask MacShadowsBall. it's not perfect, of course, but so far it seems to be working like a charm. that's all i'm saying!;)

[elle]

I definitely fall into this category. If a Stevie song doesn't win, then I hope Christine's will, or vica versa. Except for a few exceptions, you can just flush Lindsey as far as I'm concerned.

so, basically you are saying - it's the singer, not the song for you!

[CreepingDeath]

so, basically you are saying - it's the singer, not the song for you!

In this instance, yes. I listen to all kinds of music though, and for the most part it's not really the case at all. It's just that my liking of Lindsey lessens more and more as time goes on.

[mezzoforte]

if you re-read my post, the point i tried to get across (obviously unsuccessfully!) was that you can use the number of threads/posts/activity on the ledge for each member to predict the outcome of the outgoing poll. and, that opinions expressed on the ledge do not neccesarily reflect opinions of the general public.

i can go through Peter etc forum numbers too (but i'm too lazy right now), and predict the outcome of the whole poll. i've done it for some of the individual polls before, just ask MacShadowsBall. it's not perfect, of course, but so far it seems to be working like a charm. that's all i'm saying!;)

Gotcha. Hope I didn't sound too critical! I was just trying to point out that the degree of the disparity of those numbers was misleading, and doesn't tell the whole story. :-)

[elle]

Gotcha. Hope I didn't sound too critical! I was just trying to point out that the degree of the disparity of those numbers was misleading, and doesn't tell the whole story. :-)

no problem, i don't mind some good discussion! i basically agree with what you are saying (as you can see from all my statements about various biases inherent in some of the numbers). it was just not the point i was trying to make.:cool:

[MacShadowsBall]

Hey, there Ledgies! :wavey:

Looks like Rhiannon, Go Your Own Way and Sara tied, The Chain, and Gypsy are in the lead right now.

[Villavic]

Although, for me, although the album version is supreme - Christine's vocals are like, an ear orgasm, and Stevie's voice sounds haunting - the definitive ive version has to be from the Mirage tour. .

Stevie's scream is powerful in the Mirage live version.

[MacShadowsBall]

Nominations close in about 6 hours. Remember the top 4 songs move on to the Favorite Song nominations.

[David]

I voted for The Chain and GypsyI voted for Rhiannon. I see that The Chain is in the lead. I think back to the Rolling Stone reviewer, writing about a Fleetwood Mac concert in 1978, who said that The Chain was the "weak link" on Rumours but it nonetheless provided for excellent bluesy guitar work at the concert.

[elle]

I think back to the Rolling Stone reviewer, writing about a Fleetwood Mac concert in 1978, who said that The Chain was the "weak link" on Rumours .

reviewers can be pretty clueless, don't you think? i wonder if that guy regretted his words since...

[MacShadowsBall]

And here are the results...

The Chain - 32 nominations
Rhiannon - 20 nominations
Gypsy - 20 nominations
Sara - 16 nominations
Go Your Own Way - 15 nominations
You Make Loving Fun - 10 nominations
Little Lies - 7 nominations
Thrown Down - 1 nomination

The Chain, Rhiannon, Gypsy, and Sara move on to the Favorite Song nominations. :angel:

Go Your Own Way, You Make Loving Fun, Little Lies, Thrown Down are all out of the battle of the songs. :sorry:

Check back here on the Rumours forum tomorrow for the Favorite Song nominations, which consist of the 4 winners from the Pre-Rumours noms, the 4 winners from Rumours noms and the 1 winner from the Post-Rumours noms.

Any questions or concerns, post a reply on the sticky thread or PM me.

Thanks to Silver Springs for help with managing these nominations! :) :wavey: