DISCUSSION: Stevie's songs from Say You Will [Archive]

louielouie2000

11-23-2010, 11:57 PM

1. Illume I think this might just be the 21st Century's Gold Dust Woman. So avant garde, so mystical. I remember I didn't quite know what to think of it at first... the song structure just seemed all inside out, and the bass was quasi hip-hop. But this song has just aged gorgeously. To me, I think it's the best song on the record... and probably the best Mac song recorded since the Tango album. To me, this song is the perfect blend of envelope pushing and maintaining the classic Fleetwood Mac aura. If only the rest of Say You Will were this good. :nod:
2. Thrown Down I'm still pissed off at what this song became. I loved the demo, I loved the Trouble In Shangri La outtake... but hate this version. It lost all it's magic. Stevie's voice sounds flat. The production is too skeletal... no atmosphere at all. To me, this one song sums up everything that went wrong with Say You Will.
3. Say You Will Dull fluff... but cute nonetheless.
4. Smile at You If I'd never heard the demos of this song from the late '70s and early '80s, I would no doubt LOVE this song. Unfortunately, Smile At You was always my fav unreleased Stevie demo... and I just don't care for the path Lindsey took it down. Don't get me wrong, it's a really neat song... but the passion of the demos was lost in translation.
5. Running Through the Garden This song has never done anything for me.
6. Silver Girl I'm ashamed to say I like this song more and more with the years. :laugh:
7. Everybody Finds Out Neat production experiment... but it just doesn't pull the heart strings.
8. Destiny Rules This is one of my all time fav Stevie penned songs. It just oozes everything about Fleetwood Mac and Stevie Nicks that I love.
9. Goodbye Baby This song was much better live. The studio version has a bit too much of a fairy tale/goodnight story vibe to it for my tastes. I don't know... to me, this is one of those demos that probably should have stayed in the vault, too. :sorry:

bluefox4000

11-24-2010, 12:13 AM

I must say......Most of these songs are not my cup of tea. I Love Goodbye Baby, And Thrown Down, And Say You Will. But The rest.......Sorry Guys and girls......are terrible and unmemorable. IMO. Illume Especially. The song goes On FOREVVVVVER. Further proof of the slump Stevie's been in:sorry:....just one's man's view. And they really should chopped this album in half...to much fat.......man oh man.

Mick

mylittledemon

11-24-2010, 12:37 AM

Ledgies, here's the discussion thread for Stevie's songs from Say You Will.

18 songs is just too many for one album.

Well it was supposed to be a double album.

Anyway... Thrown Down, Say You Will, and Destiny Rules are the 3 strongest songs, I think. Running Through the Garden is a close tag along. I think Illume, Smile At You, Silver Girl, Goodbye Baby, and Everybody Finds Out are the weakest ones on the record.

I think one of the biggest problems of the record is the way it was mixed. Nothing against Mark Needham, but the album lacks any kind of exuberance. I was just glad, at the time, to have a new Mac record. If you watch the Destiny Rules DVD, Thrown Down was mixed really well... and then somehow on CD it lost it's punch.

:shrug:

EnchantedKiwi

11-24-2010, 01:53 AM

ewwww Silver Girl. I love every other song except that one, it sounds awful :(

iamnotafraid

11-24-2010, 02:08 AM

Ledgies, here's the discussion thread for Stevie's songs from Say You Will.

9. Goodbye Baby

Goodbye Baby is the only one I can tolerate.

Artemis

11-24-2010, 03:13 AM

I think I'm one of the few who really enjoy SYW, especially Stevie's contributions:

1. Illume: Love this song. I wasn't keen on it at first, but it's really grown on me.
2. Thrown Down: Best song on the album, I don't get the love for the demo version vs this version. I like both, but the album version is superior, in my opinion.
3. Say You Will: Her first dud on the album. This is Stevie trying to do Christine. Do not want. The children at the end... total overkill.
4. Smile at You: I much prefer the original demos to this one. I don't like what the production does. I like the verses, but, the rest of the song... blech.
5. Running Through the Garden: Love this one. She knocks it out of the park here. I love the vocal, I love the instrumental, I love the whole song.
6. Silver Girl: There are no words.
7. Everybody Finds Out: I love this one. The dramatic angry climax of the song gets me every time.
8. Destiny Rules: It's like Gypsy 4.0... but in a good way. It's a shame that it's buried so deep in the album, it doesn't really flow well after EFO.
9. Goodbye Baby: Ehh. Not a big fan of this one. I need to be feeling really down to listen to this one.

jellyman10

11-24-2010, 05:36 AM

holidayroad

11-24-2010, 08:32 AM

'Thrown Down' is a missed opportunity song. Why on earth this wasn't a single is beyond me. It is one of the best songs on the album.
I know a lot of people like 'Running Through the Garden', but I've never really cared for it. My husband didn't like it either.
The rest of the songs are good, but not great.

cristochango

11-24-2010, 08:51 AM

1. Illume

I love this song, I love the background music, I love the lyrics of it. I really like the whole 9/11 idea behind the song too. I absolutely hated it when I had first listened to it, however it has since grown on me.

2. Thrown Down

One of my top 2 for the album. I know Louie says that he prefers the TISL demos but I feel like they really did this song justice.

3. Say You Will

Great track.

4. Smile at You

I much prefer the earlier demos

5. Running Through the Garden

I love this song. I don't know if all of you guys have seen it or not, but there is a demo that was recorded that was recorded for the Mirror, Mirror album (I think) But hearing how Stevie turned it from the 80's to now is awesome.

6. Silver Girl

eeh.

7. Everybody Finds Out

I think this is my favorite Stevie song off the album. I love the beat that it has and how "modern" it sounds next to all of her other material. To me, I feel as though this song makes her relevant as an artist in the 2000's decade

8. Destiny Rules

Great song, it kind of reminds me of the song Tusk.

9. Goodbye Baby

Doesn't do anything for me :/

Silver Springs

11-24-2010, 09:07 AM

1. Illume - I must admit that at first buying the album I heard it once and then began to routinely skip it. But I made myself focus on the lyrics and the "lesser noticed" notes and suddenly I began to appreciate it. I'm a great lover of lyrical intention, and this to me reads perfectly as a diary entry, almost stream of consciousness.
2. Thrown Down -I like it, but I don't love it. The slightly boarish tone of the "chorus" grates on me a little in comparison with the rest of the song. I'll listen to it but it's not a song I'll stop what I'm doing to listen to.
3. Say You Will - My phone's ringtone :). It may be anything less than profound, but it certainly makes up for it in fun. I think the song is the equivelant of R.E.M's Shiny Happy People, although I hope it goes down a little better with the band.
4. Smile at You - I must admit that I prefer Stevie's unreleased demo track. But the lyrics do mean alot to me, and I do enjoy the anger that's present in Stevie's voice occasionally. But I can't help but feel it's lost something in production
5. Running Through the Garden - This song has some pretty delicious guitar riffs, and Stevie belting out her more energetic parts just makes you want to pick up a hairbrush and join in.
6. Silver Girl - Meh.
7. Everybody Finds Out - Probably the only song on the album that actually sounds as though it could have been released by a more contemporary artist. Somewhat stunted and jittery in its composition but all in all it's a good track.
8. Destiny Rules - I think with a little fiddling and change in production this song could have been right at home on Rumours as a concept.
9. Goodbye Baby - Some people do dismiss this song as far too sappy and bordering on sickly, but I love the melodic and tender approach to the song. It doesn't quite fit onto the album, in my opinion, but it's just that lovely that I don't even care.

TrueFaith77

11-24-2010, 09:26 AM

1. Illume - Provides the political/historical context for the entire album. I realized this was a great album when I caught the way this song links with "Destiny Rules." "It's just like a river, ooh it's never ending / I cannot pretend that the heartache goes away" -- From simile to romantic analogy, this is Stevie @ her best, defining the broken-hearted culture the album addresses.

2. Thrown Down - The best song on the album. As autobiography, what a glimpse into her feelings during The Dance reunion, and what a summation of Lindsey the man:

You've shaken your faith in me, no
You've shaken my faith in everything else
A decision no one makes, and now you're going home
Faith is a hard thing to hold on to
Something inside you says I don't have to
You're not like other people, you do what you want to
You're not like other people, you do what you want to

Lindsey's cascading guitars make this song shimmer and the ideas glow. It makes one person's vibrant vision of another into a political-existential act. The essence of the Mac.

3. Say You Will - The album's profound political entreaty--and, thus, the album's appropriate title (sorry, Linds!). Literally, the song is a plea to Christine (the album's signifying absence). But more than that, it is a plea to the culture, to the blues-bearing knowledge to return which Lindsey-and-Stevie experience must now express. That kid chorus: is Stevie's hope.

4. Smile at You - ChiliD showed me the light. McVie's bass is a wonder on this track (and this album, really). The track begins the radical midpoint Stevie trilogy which takes us from Rumours-era heartbreak to...

5. Running Through the Garden - ...to the drug decades' excess to ameliorate the pain (the awesome image of frantic flower-picking in an overgrown garden)...

6. Silver Girl - ...to contemporary hard-won knowledge which amounts to a social vision that connects uncannily with Mary Gaitskill:

A shadow moves across her face
You cannot see her soul
Unless she lets you...
See her soul

7. Everybody Finds Out - Supposedly about Monica Lewinsky, it's surprising this was in the Mac pile--until you hear it. Everytime I play this for someone who's never heard it, they always think it's a remix of a Stevie song. Anyway, the instensity--those strings!--of this song is profound--the era's definitive trackj about public/private sexuality. MJ would approve.

8. Destiny Rules - One critic likened Lindsey's playing on this track to Johnny Marr. There is no higher praise. Again, the link up to Illume is key as it holds up the album's dual arteries leading to an essential broken heart. Also, what a profound concept for a song--its portrayal of isolation and metaphysical musing is profound. But 9/11 happened. It changed EVERYTHING. Destiny Rules.

9. Goodbye Baby - At last, catharsis.

elle

11-24-2010, 10:48 AM

I feel somewhat bad discussing this group of songs:distress:, since my opinion of them is so low:sorry:. Here it goes anyway: I think that huge difference in quality between this group of songs and Lindsey's (together with the absence of the 3rd writer to balance it out) is one of the big reasons album sounds like two slapped together.

That said, taken on their own TD and SYW are cute/pleasant to listen to, and sometimes I don't mind listening to EFO and GB.

I don't find the recycling of the same fragment in Illume and Destiny Rules as providing any deep meaning or cohesiveness, although it might have been intended to do so (I feel the same way about recycling in Not That Funny and IKINW on Tusk).

The only song of this group that I absolutely love listening to is Destiny Rules, and that's because of the guitar parts (nasal singing not being my favorite:rolleyes:).

The rest of these songs are boring and/or annoying, to me (Silver Girl being the worst), and I almost always skip them, now.

HejiraNYC

11-24-2010, 11:16 AM

What about "Not Make Believe?"

Stevie's songs on this album were largely at the mercy of Lindsey's production. He made good songs suck and made sucky songs good.

Good songs with sucky production:

-Smile at You
-Say You Will
-Running Through the Garden

Sucky songs that were made good:

-Illume
-Not Make Believe
-Goodbye Baby

Good songs and good production:

-Destiny Rules
-Thrown Down

Sucky songs and sucky production:

-Silver Girl
-Everybody Finds Out

elle

11-24-2010, 12:00 PM

What about "Not Make Believe?"

Should count as extra, same as Love Minus Zero/No Limit (another Lindsey one we forgot to add to that list of additional Lindsey songs!).

MacShadowsBall

11-24-2010, 12:13 PM

Should count as extra, same as Love Minus Zero/No Limit (another Lindsey one we forgot to add to that list of additional Lindsey songs!).

"Not Make Believe" - I never heard of those songs! Where did they come from?

HejiraNYC

11-24-2010, 12:15 PM

"Not Make Believe" - I never heard of those songs! Where did they come from?

They're on the bonus disc in the deluxe edition of SYW.

Artemis

11-24-2010, 12:16 PM

"Not Make Believe" - I never heard of those songs! Where did they come from?

I think the two of them are only on the special/limited editions of SYW?

Can't find them on youtube though. Here's a demo of Not Make Believe

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aleuzzi

11-24-2010, 12:17 PM

1. Illume
2. Thrown Down
3. Say You Will
4. Smile at You
5. Running Through the Garden
6. Silver Girl
7. Everybody Finds Out
8. Destiny Rules
9. Goodbye Baby

Illume is a great mood piece--and, unlike so many other 9-11 songs--it communicates the emotional turmoil in a genuine, believable way.

Throw Down is a good tune, given added weight by the very smart, effective performance and production.

Say You Will--eh.

Smile at You does not work in this context. Othes have noted that it's better in earlier demos.

Running through Her Garden is okay, nothing too special to me, but I don't skip past it when it's on.

Silver Girl is an all-out bore with really awful words.

Everybody Finds Out may be the best Stevie Performance since Stand Back. It's hot, Hot, HOT.

Destiny Rules is a great tune given simple production. I immediately liked it.

Goodbye Baby is SYW's "When I See You Again"--an intolerable experience.

So, overall, like Lindsey's songs, some great ones and some duds. It's a strange album, with the weakest material kind of sinking into the middle of the running order.

MacShadowsBall

11-24-2010, 12:18 PM

They're on the bonus disc in the deluxe edition of SYW.

An album with 18 songs had a deluxe edition with a bonus disc!! Um...okay.:lol:

elle

11-24-2010, 12:21 PM

An album with 18 songs had a deluxe edition with a bonus disc!! Um...okay.:lol:

Great deal, right?:D

HejiraNYC

11-24-2010, 12:25 PM

An album with 18 songs had a deluxe edition with a bonus disc!! Um...okay.:lol:

I think we can thank Lindsey for this. SYW is a single album until you make it a double album. :shrug:

tilthefirefades

11-24-2010, 12:33 PM

I love her songs on SYW, but of course, Silver Girl is my favorite :D

elle

11-24-2010, 12:39 PM

I think the two of them are only on the special/limited editions of SYW?

Can't find them on youtube though.

Yeah, the easiest version of LMZ/NL to find is Clapton's live performance - very different from Lindsey's. I love what Lindsey did with guitar parts in it, I guess that's the advantage of his being equally comfortable with electric and acoustic guitar. Although I enjoy Clapton's version - it is great musically, however lacking any emotion imo. Which I guess (emotional detachment) has been main complaint heard about his tours in the last 30 or so years...

markolas

11-24-2010, 01:18 PM

Illume - Loved it when SYW first came out, but LB's voice manipulation toward the end ruins it for me now. Otherwise, it probably is her best song on the album.

Thrown Down - I like it, but I like the "wall of sound" version (which I seem to have lost) better. The SYW version is good, if a little too adult contemporary for my taste.

Say You Will - I've always thought that it desperately needed another verse and could do without the kids singing on it. Other than that, it's a nice song, but nothing that special.

Smile at You - I guess I'm in the minority when I say I really like what LB did with this song, and I think Stevie's vocal is great. My problem is with the lyrics. "Go on save yourself, leave the key here...you love someone else, and I shouldn't be here." If you're telling the other person to leave, isn't *he* the one who shouldn't be here? Then, there's the whole "I should've turned away and ran as fast as I can" debacle. Makes me cringe every time I hear it.

Running Through the Garden - Like the song, the lyrics, and Stevie's vocal. But it sounds very '80s, and at times I wish LB could've made it sound a little (or a lot) less dated.

Silver Girl - There's always been such venom directed at this song, but I think it's nice. The lyrics are fairly straightforward, unlike most of Stevie's songs. It's nothing special, but it's a nice little song.

Everybody Finds Out - Always liked it (another great vocal), but it seems really out of place on the album.

Destiny Rules - Lyrics aren't the best, and Stevie sounds like she's pinching her nose while she sings it. I like the song, but I'd like it more with a better vocal.

Goodbye Baby - Bleh. Too maudlin. Didn't like the demo, and don't like it on the album.

chiliD

11-24-2010, 01:25 PM

I still think it is pretty hard to top Dylan's original version of "Love Minus Zero/No Limit". Leon Russell's is #2.

The way Lindsey arranged it sounds like he was trying to sound like The Byrds.

elle

11-24-2010, 02:11 PM

I still think it is pretty hard to top Dylan's original version of "Love Minus Zero/No Limit". Leon Russell's is #2.

I love the original too!:nod: Never heard Leon Russell's and couldn't find it by doing a quick search. But what he did with guitar parts and how they fit with the song is what I really love about Lindsey's version (they seem to be kind of lost with Dylan's, of course there is harmonica there!). Plus for some reason I like the way he pronounces the words when singing this song.

I know there are several other versions too... Either way, what a gorgeous song!

PenguinHead

11-24-2010, 09:17 PM

I like listening to the Say You Will album by dividing up Stevie's songs and Lindsey songs as if they are two solo albums.

When you add each of their respective bonus tracks, you essentially get two complete albums. It gives you a different perspective of the songs, making them more accessible in a less cluttered context.

Lindsfan

11-25-2010, 12:58 AM

I really like this album, and, with only a couple of exceptions, I enjoy Stevie's songs on it a lot...

1. Illume - Pretty song, but just kind of bores me.
2. Thrown Down - Love it. I'm not really a shipper...though I have my occasional moments - and this is one of them!
3. Say You Will - I really like this song, though I like it better live, with Stevie and Lindsey singing acapella harmony at the end. Album version is still fun though, and I wouldn't mind one bit if they played it on their next tour :D
4. Smile at You - Good song. Obviously not real uplifting, so I have to be in the mood for it, but I definitely like it.
5. Running Through the Garden - This and EFO are my faves from this album. Lindsey's solo at the end is the ring tone on my cell :D and I thnk the song is just classic Stevie...all the pain and regret. Good tune all around.
6. Silver Girl :distress:
7. Everybody Finds Out - This I crank way up. Stevie just rocks out here, and so do I right along with her. The way it all builds to a climax, with Stevie and Lindsey's big harmonies at the end after "she gets on a midnight plane. She's done it a thousand times. When love starts out in the darkness...". From about the 3 minute mark on is just cool. This too, would make me happy if it showed up in their future set list ( if Stevie would just relax and dive into it ). *Chills*
8. Destiny Rules - I like this song too, though more for Lindsey's guitar work. It just has a nice mellow way about it without being sleepy. Good song.
9. Goodbye Baby Zzzzzzz. Pretty song but definitely a snoozer. This and Silver Girl are the only songs I skip, though this is certainly a lot better song...just puts me in a coma is all.

BaronVonBielski

11-25-2010, 03:43 AM

1. Illume
One of her better songs on the album. I like the acoustic guitar sound and the timing of the drums when they first begin and the percussion mixed in. Good production on the vocals. It all makes up for a kinda weak melody.
2. Thrown Down
Hands down her best effort on the album. Great riff, I am sure Lindsey had something to do with it. Good production and mixing.
3. Say You Will
Not too bad, kinda catchy. Not all that fond of her vocals in this song for some reason.
4. Smile at You
Good vocals on this one. I like the way the chorus is done with Lindsey singing even if it's not in the forefront. But overall the song really doesn't stand out. Honestly the best part is the acoustic guitar solo as the song fades out.
5. Running Through the Garden
I do not like the immediate opening and first :25 of the song, but then it kicks in and seems to become another song. In the end it's a pretty decent song.
6. Silver Girl
Never liked the song, I don't know what to make of it. Not my cup of tea musically or lyrically.
7. Everybody Finds Out
Another song I could do without. I'm not fond of the opening :17 seconds, but it really doesn't improve much from there. The chorus is very weak.
8. Destiny Rules
Aside from her opening vocals this is a pretty solid song. Lindsey really improved this one from it's initial state which was heard for a quick few seconds on the DVD of the same name. I like the guitar work throughout as well as the outro semi-solo, also heard on the DVD. Good melody.
9. Goodbye Baby
I agree with an earlier post about this song being Say You Will's, "When I See You Again"... except not as good. Is it bad? Of course not, but it is forgetful.

Dodfather

11-25-2010, 04:27 AM

Stevie is really strong on this album. I love Running Through The Garden and Everybody Finds oOut (those strings!) but yes, Silver Girl just plain sucks. The best track for me is definitely Thrownm Down though. I just love it.

Back when the Let's Talk About... thread was going in the Stevie room I started one for Thrown Down and here were my thoughts...

I personally think this is the best song Stevie has written for the Mac in years! It's her best since Seven Wonders and for me is the undoubted highlight of Say You Will (an album that I seem to have a higher opinion of than many others). I'd love to hear it live but don't rate my chances much, which is a real shame.

So, what are everyone's thoughts on this track? How does it compare with her earlier stuff? What do you think it's about? How do you rate her vocal etc...? Anything really..

I absolutely LOVE the vocal we see her laying down in the recording studio in Destiny Rules. Those lst few lines are delivered brilliantly, as Lindsey says. It's also the subject of that infamous "you wouldn't tell Bob Dylan how to write" discussion, which I love Stevie for! How dare Lindsey try to change her lyrics? haha!

I know Stevie has said that this song is about Lindsey and was written around the time of The Dance tour about the "barricades of time" between them. I've read in other threads about how people think there may have been something between them briefly back then and the lyrics to this song definitely bear that out. Even if it was just a random hook up with an ex - Hell, who hasn't done that?!

I find it really interesting that Stevie takes such a strange perspective on their relatinship in this song though, if that is what it's about. "He fell for her again, she watched it happen" and "she watched it all come into play". The woman just seems very passive, which I think is unusual for Stevie's songs. Instead of her feelings it's her observations of whoever the guy is and then it goes on to just describe how he pleaded with her that he'd changed etc: "maybe now he could prove to her that they should be together" Does anyone think we get anything about how the woman may feel or is it just her saying what he did at the time?

Phew - that went on for a bit there!

Also, random fact - has everyone noticed that this song is used in Season 9 of Friends? The One With The Soap Opera Party. It plays in the background. I noticed this years ago when I first saw the episode and was really chuffed!

michelej1

11-25-2010, 01:28 PM

Does anyone think we get anything about how the woman may feel or is it just her saying what he did at the time?

I think the "shaken my faith" line shows how the woman feels. Faith is a hard thing to hold on to. Should she dedicate her pain to him? I think she feels let down (if not thrown down) and is fighting back the urge to let that hurt and blame override the other feelings. Also, if the woman is Stevie, I think Fall From Grace further explores her feelings.

Michele

holidayroad

11-25-2010, 07:25 PM

Dodfather

11-26-2010, 04:48 AM

Also, if the woman is Stevie, I think Fall From Grace further explores her feelings.

Michele

I think 'Thrown Down' is one of the best songs on the album. I will never understand why it wasn't a single. I think it's better than 'Seven Wonders'!

Oh, Fall From Grace definitely does. It's a GREAT track and possibly my favourite from Trouble In Shangri-La.

Yeah, Thrown Down should really have been the lead single from the album instead of Peacekeeper. Then they would have performed it live!

jcalzaretta

11-26-2010, 08:35 AM

1. Thrown Down - The best song on the record. Great song. Very classic Fleetwood Mac. Loved it immediately and loved it when even Friends used it in an episode.

2. Everybody Finds Out - The production gets to me at times. But it rocks. And when Stevie sings - We see no change in sight, watching her decline, all the way through - waiting for the day....when everybody finds out - well she just nails that part. Just love it.

3. Destiny Rules - voice is a little flat at opening. But I have come to love this song. It is very classic FM.

4. Running Through the Garden - Just think it has great hard rocking music.

5. Say You Will - Fun song and almost sounds a little like Christine wrote it.

6. Illume - I just love when she sings - just remember when I am haunted, that I was just so scared. Just gets me everytime.

7. Goodbye Baby

8. Smile at You - I almost cried when I heard how they butchered this song.

9. Silver Girl. No Appeal.

If there were numbers by these - like rank the song 1 to 10 - numbers 4 through 6 would be almost identical and not that far from 3. However, there would be a huge gap between 7 and 8/9