The Death Of Fleetwood Mac...Time

[iamnotafraid]

First off I had this response all written out and then through some
computer magic, I must have hit the wrong button and lost the whole
thing. So thank your lucky stars.

And now an edited version:

Bretonbaquet,
Of course some of my comments were meant to "antagonise". Much
like your "Steve still waiting tables" statemeant. I used the word imposters
to describe the members of the band that were there without Peter, Lindsey
and Stevie. As I've already listed in the other locked thread the real stars
were:

Peter, Mick, John, Christine, Lindsey and Stevie .

And that's it.

TrueFaith77,
How do I seperate Danny and Jeremy because they were there when
Peter left? That kind of answers itself. Peter was the heartbeat of the
band. Without him they just started drifting into a bland band.

And the reason I didn't continue the story about the band during
the Lindsey, Stevie and Christine years is because everyone already
knows about the amazing success that version had. Without finding
Buckingham Nicks the band would have been forgotten.

I love Stevie and Christine too (Stevie's the reason I became a Mac fan),
but without Lindsey they became a boring bland band again.

So even though I think Danny, Jeremy, Bob, Billy, Rick and Bekka are
talented, their versions of Fleetwood Mac Light were hurtful to
the band's image.

Does anyone on this board really think that Behind The Mask and
Time didn't hurt the image of the band. The band's brand was going
down, down, down.

It would have been really sad if that's the way the Mac's story would have
ended. Without The Dance and even the mediocre Say You Will
to give them real credibility, or a respectable legacy - those other versions
would have been the death of Fleetwood Mac.

[MacShadowsBall]

I appreciate your opinion iamnotafraid, but what exactly do you feel was the death of Fleetwood Mac - the Behind the Mask and Time albums themselves, or the new members. What in your opinion makes the albums so bad or individual new members so bad? Should the band had called it quits when Peter or even Lindsey left?

I notice you state your opinions openly, but don't seem to provide evidence to support your opinions.
If you got fired, laid off from your job, would you be going around giving your former boss and former company the highest praise?

[Silver Springs]

Not going to comment on the whole Time/Behind The Mask controversy, because people know my opinions. But how can you class Say You Will as a mediocre album? It was a fresh and intriguining responce to the years past and commentary on the world as it stood then and today. Where it may not have been another Rumours, it was still successful in its own right. It was the most commercially successful, from a chart point of view, album in the US since Mirage and it went Gold in the US and United Kingdom. They obviously did something right if so many people bought back into the "franchise.

[iamnotafraid]

Thanks for your responses.
I shall answer after the Miami
Dolphins game tonight. Which
starts in just a few minutes...

[chiliD]

First off I had this response all written out and then through some computer magic, I must have hit the wrong button and lost the whole
thing.

Probably should've taken that as an omen and just left it alone. But, no. Had to "go there"...AGAIN. :mad:


And now an edited version:

oh, f*** :distress:

As I've already listed in the other locked thread the real stars
were:

Peter, Mick, John, Christine, Lindsey and Stevie .

And that's it.

Off the meds again? Still?



So even though I think Danny, Jeremy, Bob, Billy, Rick and Bekka are
talented, their versions of Fleetwood Mac Light were hurtful to
the band's image.

You really are mentally constipated.

Does anyone on this board really think that Behind The Mask and Time didn't hurt the image of the band. The band's brand was going down, down, down.

Yeah, ME! The "brand" as you so derrogetarily refer to it already was tainted once Peter Green left the band, but thanks to the remaining members and all members that came along after that (Christine McVie, the two BW's, the CA couple, Rick, Billy, the two Daves, & Bekka) kept the band a working viable entity. The Rumours success was an anomaly, a curse, that the band would and will never escape from.

The fatal blow to the band was Rumours...and the proof of that was The Dance. Because they couldn't remove themselves from the Rumours curse in the meantime, they took a giant leap backwards and became for all eternity, an oldies retro band. Forget any future creativity, they were stuck forever in the Rumours quicksand.

[TrueFaith77]

Your logic still doesn't hold on the Jeremy/Danny not being the true Fleetwood Mac... because... your whole point is that a similar blanding occurred when Rick and Billy joined... which means according to that same logic... Christine was part of the post-Peter blanding and Stevie and Christine were (like Jeremy/Danny) around for the blanding after Lindsey left. Which means, you ACTUALLY only think that Fleetwood Mac is Fleetwood Mac if Peter and Lindsey are there: Mick, John, Christine, Stevie are all incidental according to your logic.

ETA: Now I understand. Peter Green is the heartbeat (he worked with Jeremy and Danny separately for example). AND Lindsey-Stevie-Christine are, as a unit, the heartbeat.

Your internal logic is sound.

However, to Chili's point--and to your particular standards--do you think the band's blanding began before Behind the Mask, with Mirage, in which the Rumours juggernaut proved to great for them to successfully negotiate?

My pov is conflicted: I admire and enjoy all eras of Fleetwood Mac and I see how that history participated in the three Off-White albums of the late 70s, which I regard as a pinnacle in ALL OF MUSIC. But if THAT brand were smudged, it began with Mirage, no?

Compromised though it may be (as we know as insiders rather than as fresh listeners, I contend), I consider Say You Will to be the greatest American album of the 00s. To put it in perspective, Mirage and Tango (both of which I love) wouldn't make my Top 50 of the 80s (I don't even know if they'd make the top 10 for their respective years!).

I have a friend who believes in the "brand" concept as well. Look at something like Roxy Music where every album must be perfection and for which Bryan daringly retired the name at its greatest financial and international success. For him, the Mac should have ended with Tusk. And he argues that 90s Mac didn't "look" right--and in part he intuits the compromise at the heart of them, in which certain artists may have been forced into the Rumours mold. I happen to think this means he is missing some wonderful moments and wonderful records (even Behind the Mask is a fascinating whole; I feel the cover captures the album's quality of being steeped in American folk/pop lore--of which the Rumours Mac were an undeniable part).

And, THUS, I feel that therefore the definition of the Mac is, in fact, held in the much-hated Time album in which Mick reveals that the Mac is his way of honoring Peter Green. And, THAT is as good a definition of the "real" Fleetwood Mac as I need.

Chili and I won't agree on the worth of revisiting Rumours on The Dance or on the more-than-a-fluke specialness of that phenomenon. However, I think the point is to call something the "real" fleetwood mac or not kinda misses the larger issue of how and where and why and to what point Fleetwood Mac became what it became at different junctures.

Just some thoughts.

[iamnotafraid]

But how can you class Say You Will as a mediocre album?

Well the Dolphins lost so I'll try and not let that affect
what I write about this band we all love and loathe.

My green eyed friend I do believe "Say You Will"
was a mediocre album. Mostly because of Stevie. Her
only contribution to that album was Goodbye Baby
(a song NOT about her abortions, as some think).

I imagine the outtakes of Destiny Rules goes something like
this...

Stevie - Lindsey I can't sing that high, lower key please...
Lindsey - I can't sing that high either, but just how low can we go?
Stevie - Can you still work your magic with the VSO?
Lindsey - What if I just whisper my lyrics?

They sound for the most part like they need their batteries
replaced or something. I do like a few of Lindsey's songs from
Say You Will. Even the much hated "Come". That song rocked
in concert. It's just sad to me that they couldn't put out a better
album. I think Lindsey and Stevie had their chance to shine
and they blew it. Less Stevie and a few Christine songs would
or could have made this album better. This album could have
been a decent solo album for Lindsey. But $$$ talks.

ChiliD and MacShadows,
I'll reply to you guys later.
I know it's killing you to know
what I think.

[iamnotafraid]

Fleetwood Mac is Peter and Lindsey

Hmmm.........

[TrueFaith77]

Hmmm.........

lol

see my revision

[HomerMcvie]

The Rumours success was an anomaly, a curse, that the band would and will never escape from.

The fatal blow to the band was Rumours...and the proof of that was The Dance. Because they couldn't remove themselves from the Rumours curse in the meantime, they took a giant leap backwards and became for all eternity, an oldies retro band. Forget any future creativity, they were stuck forever in the Rumours quicksand.

And while I once loved Rumours, more than any album, of any time, it truly was FM's CURSE. Good lord, they're still milking the shipper's fantasies, 34 YEARS after it came out. That, in and of itself, makes them jokes and sellouts, as artists. That's right, JOKES AND SELLOUTS. It's beyond pathetic...they've made the band's legacy, a joke. Because they're nothing but a Rumours TRIBUTE band, now. Acknowledging nothing from SYW, shows that it was a failed effort, and they feel nothing from it, was worthy of the fans hearing again.

Time was the best thing to ever happen to FM. God forbid that lineup had ever been given the chance to shine, though. I'm no Dave Mason fan, but B & B were great additions. But the jello mold had been set, and as long as Mick could talk S&L into returning, Mick could return to making his mortgage payments.:mad:

[louielouie2000]

Time was the best thing to ever happen to FM.

Seriously? Peter Green the founder wasn't? How about Bob Welch, who pretty much single handedly kept the band alive for a half decade while it was slowly self-destructing? And who knows... without the rampant success of the Buckingham Nicks era, the band could have disentigrated long before the critically and commercially acclaimed Time was recorded... the album that was heralded by fans and critics as the savior of Fleetwood Mac and rock history alike! ;)

I won't deny that Rumours was the worst thing to happen to the band. But I have differing reasons why I believe that to be the case. Mainly, it was all downhill from Rumours. The album was so good it just couldn't be matched ever again. On top of that it was so successful it's sales could never be matched. Not to mention the fact that one album alone has dominated the band ever since, and all of us hardcore fans are SICK of it. And I truly am sick of it... whenever I hear Don't Stop or Go You Own Way these days my stomach turns :laugh:.

But it's not all gloom and doom, though. Via Rumours countless fans have been exposed to iterations of Fleetwood Mac they likely never would have heard. I know I wouldn't have even listened to the '70-75 era albums without having been roped in by Rumours first... much less been able to fall in love with that period. There is no doubt Buckingham Nicks kept the band alive for decades too... albeit at the cost of the band's soul atrophying.

While I'm responding to this thread, I just have to attack the notion that's upheld by a vocal minority that the Time era of Fleetwood Mac was more genuine than the Rumours one. To me, Lindsey's (and subsequently, Stevie's) being hired into the band was an organic thing. The band needed a new guitarist because Bob Welch was on his way out, so they hired Lindsey. After Stevie left, Mick knew he needed another pretty blond girl to get the band some attention and get some butts in the seats... hence his hiring of Bekka. To me, the reasons why Bekka was hired were far less pure than why Lindsey (and as a freebie, Stevie) were hired. But that's just my opinion. And while I'm just laying it all out there, let's not forget Mick, Chris, John, and Lindsey have all dismissed the Time era... and have all referred to the Rumours incarnation of the band as the lineup of Fleetwood Mac. And I agree... without Chris these days, it's no longer "THE" lineup, IMO... and the magic of Fleetwood Mac has evaporated.

Rant over... feel free to feed on me like rabid piranhas! :laugh:

http://seedorama.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/piranha3.png

[ButterCookie]

:laugh: On my god, you little troll.

[bretonbanquet]

I don't want to address the less lucid points that have been made in this thread, but I think a lot of fans overlook the fact that Fleetwood Mac haven't been musically relevant for a very long time. In fact, the last time they were anything approaching dynamic, and produced music that didn't originate from the 70s and 80s, was for Time.

Up to 1976, Fleetwood Mac always tried new things, new members, new styles - they were willing to take risks, like following Bob's idea of moving to the US. All of the members had contributed to this organic development of the band. Most had, at some time or another, been the individual thread that the band's existence hung on - that's certainly true of Peter obviously, but also Jeremy, Danny and Bob Welch.

After Rumours, the band's creativity disappeared. Whatever anyone thinks of Stevie and Christine, neither of them were ever musically progressive, not in the slightest. Lindsey was, and is, of course - but his creativity was hamstrung by being in Fleetwood Mac. Therein lies the popularity - people that are not musically adventurous like a band that isn't musically adventurous - it appeals to most people.

For Behind the Mask, Lindsey was gone, and replaced by a couple of guys who were talented and musically very capable, but not terribly quirky or interesting. Therefore that album is the most tedious of all the band's output (imo) - at least Time was interesting. Then they went back and lived in the 70s for the next 15 years. They basically felt, and were made to feel by the media and the fans, that they weren't allowed to experiment or take risks any more, and the Rumours stuff was all they were ever required to do. And (here's where I get crucified) I think the rabid Stevie fanatics were at the very crux of that. Anything that isn't Stevie doing the same old stuff, just isn't Fleetwood Mac to them. So Mac ceased to be a proper band, and these words "brand" and "franchise" rear their ugly heads. Those words have no place in music - music isn't about that s**t. So a lot of people are happy with that, including at least one person on this thread - fine. A lot of people like Big Macs too - doesn't make them good food.

[Meowi]

Fleetwood Mac late 1960's = Huge
Fleetwood Mac late 1970's = Epic
Fleetwood Mac Mid 1990's = ?

Thats my whole theory. To be honest, I don't like what FM had become. You can't just take prominent singers and replace with someone else. Now, that does not necessarily mean that Bekka and friends aren't good (I have never listened to time).

[TrueFaith77]

I don't want to address the less lucid points that have been made in this thread,

guilty as charged :laugh:

They basically felt, and were made to feel by the media and the fans, that they weren't allowed to experiment or take risks any more, and the Rumours stuff was all they were ever required to do. And (here's where I get crucified) I think the rabid Stevie fanatics were at the very crux of that. Anything that isn't Stevie doing the same old stuff, just isn't Fleetwood Mac to them.

Absolutely profound. Note also how people always blame Lindsey for forcing her to make strange sounding records like those on Say You Will.

[HejiraNYC]

I don't want to address the less lucid points that have been made in this thread, but I think a lot of fans overlook the fact that Fleetwood Mac haven't been musically relevant for a very long time. In fact, the last time they were anything approaching dynamic, and produced music that didn't originate from the 70s and 80s, was for Time.

OMG. Okay, on a positive note, I agree with you that they have not been relevant since the 80s. But I have to totally disagree that Time was even remotely "dynamic," let alone "progressive." It was very middle-of-the-road, very generic and bland adult pop that would not have been out of place on a Wilson Phillips album.


After Rumours, the band's creativity disappeared.

Uh... wut? Seriously? Ever heard of Tusk? It is arguably the most musically progressive album ever produced by any artist. It really reset the bar for 70s arena rock albums and has an enduring legacy of bands inspired by the sound of this album - Wilco, Arcade Fire, Jayhawks, etc. And even lesser albums like Tango were novel (if not innovative) for their time. We all know how heavily this album continues to be sampled even to this day.


Whatever anyone thinks of Stevie and Christine, neither of them were ever musically progressive, not in the slightest. Lindsey was, and is, of course - but his creativity was hamstrung by being in Fleetwood Mac. Therein lies the popularity - people that are not musically adventurous like a band that isn't musically adventurous - it appeals to most people.

The beauty of a band like Fleetwood Mac is that, as a group of equal contributors, they force each other to bring out their best while weeding out their less desirable traits. This push/pull musical tension is what creates magic. We get the best of Lindsey without getting all of his tendency for self-indulgence. I don't think he is "hamstrung" as much as he is "refined" within the confines of FM.


For Behind the Mask, Lindsey was gone, and replaced by a couple of guys who were talented and musically very capable, but not terribly quirky or interesting. Therefore that album is the most tedious of all the band's output (imo)

Indeed, BTM was not their best album ever, but I would hardly call it "tedious." In fact, it is arguably one of their more diverse, interesting efforts. It's an olio of all sorts of morsels - pop, blues, rockabilly, folk, prog rock, etc. At the end of the day, you can't help but give them a B+ for effort considering that their primary creative voice had departed. Nobody contributed their best material to the album, but it seems that the voices of Christine and Stevie can make practically anything sparkle.



- at least Time was interesting. Then they went back and lived in the 70s for the next 15 years.

If you think BTM was "tedious," how on earth can you find Time "interesting?" There is nothing... nothing new, novel or fresh about Time. Don't get me wrong- I loved Christine's songs for the most part, but I do have to admit that the production/arrangements were pretty lackluster. Otherwise it's full of very bland California pop along with some soulless bluesy meanderings.


They basically felt, and were made to feel by the media and the fans, that they weren't allowed to experiment or take risks any more, and the Rumours stuff was all they were ever required to do.

I think the only album that was consciously moulded in homage of Rumours was Mirage. Otherwise, I have to disagree yet again. Although it is far from perfect the SYW album was perhaps the most far-reaching, ambitious album they've ever released, and Lindsey takes full credit or blame for this, depending on how you look at it. Other than the title track, I don't think there is a single song on that album that could have fit on Rumours.

And (here's where I get crucified) I think the rabid Stevie fanatics were at the very crux of that. Anything that isn't Stevie doing the same old stuff, just isn't Fleetwood Mac to them.

Well, I guess you are saying, in a roundabout way, that Stevie is the sole reason why Fleetwood Mac is/was successful?


So Mac ceased to be a proper band, and these words "brand" and "franchise" rear their ugly heads.

I believe it was Lindsey who first posited the term "brand" around the time of The Dance. Say what you will about "branding," but it is definitely important. Look at what a nightmare it was when the fake Fleetwood Mac was touring the U.S. in the early 70s? And how would you feel if Benny and Bjorn reunited "ABBA" with new girl singers? It's one thing if they started a new band with a new name, but coopting the ABBA name would just be beyond the pale.

[MacShadowsBall]

In reading the replies here, it seems there are some who like Behind the Mask and hate Time, while others hate Behind the Mask and like Time. :confused: I guess I like them both equally, but with FM its hard to "hate" and/or "like" an album w/contributions from multiple writers/vocalists.

Just for fun, what do you guys think Fleetwood Mac should have done in '87 when Lindsey left abruptly? I believe FM were obligated to tour - should they had canceled to tour and disbanded? :shrug:

[Bubba Fleetwood]

After reading the posts here, I wanted to jump into the pool. I have a few things to bring up but I don't have time so let me just say briefly that, yeah, I'm really tired of Rumours too even through it will always hold a special place in my heart. I think Tusk is the great FWM album. I actually like BTM a great deal. I wish Rick and Billy had been allowed to do a couple more albums.

[TrueFaith77]

I wish the band (SLCMJ) had held it together after Rumours to take advantage of their success to make great music together for the rest of their lives.

But they didn't.

Since that didn't happen, I wish that the band (even if just SLMJ) had held it together after The Dance to make great music together for the rest of their lives.

But they didn't.

Since that didn't happen either, I wish that Mick (and John) had been able to be more liberated (even from within themselves) in doing Fleetwood Mac work without S&L, while always welcoming them back into the fold should they so choose.

But they weren't.

[Street_Dreamer]

Just for fun, what do you guys think Fleetwood Mac should have done in '87 when Lindsey left abruptly? I believe FM were obligated to tour - should they had canceled to tour and disbanded? :shrug:

I'll always feel that the right thing was done by bringing in Billy and Rick. I wish that they, along with Bekka would have had a chance to make multiple albums with the band (in Billy's case more than two albums.)

Matt

[bretonbanquet]

OMG. Okay, on a positive note, I agree with you that they have not been relevant since the 80s. But I have to totally disagree that Time was even remotely "dynamic," let alone "progressive." It was very middle-of-the-road, very generic and bland adult pop that would not have been out of place on a Wilson Phillips album.

I didn't actually say that Time was progressive, but I'm not talking about progression in terms of music in general - the changes were progressive in terms of the band's direction. I would say that the blandest songs on there are Christine's anyway.

Uh... wut? Seriously? Ever heard of Tusk? It is arguably the most musically progressive album ever produced by any artist. It really reset the bar for 70s arena rock albums and has an enduring legacy of bands inspired by the sound of this album - Wilco, Arcade Fire, Jayhawks, etc. And even lesser albums like Tango were novel (if not innovative) for their time. We all know how heavily this album continues to be sampled even to this day.

If you think Tusk was the most musically progressive album ever produced by anyone, then your record collection must be tiny. OK, I'll qualify my statement - of course it was a radical departure from Rumours, but only Lindsey was particularly creative on that album, and he was never really allowed to do it again :lol: Even then, a lot of his songs on there are pretty similar, and after a while, that stuff was too outré for Fleetwood Mac. Stevie and Chris weren't doing anything progressive on there. That's not to say it's not good - it is. But the creativity was limited to one member, and it did not resurface to any great degree on future albums. Certain aspects (Lindsey) of Tango in the Night were innovative, but the end product was safe. In the UK at least, Mac were already old hat. I was 14 at the time, and it was popular with people my parents' age.

The beauty of a band like Fleetwood Mac is that, as a group of equal contributors, they force each other to bring out their best while weeding out their less desirable traits. This push/pull musical tension is what creates magic. We get the best of Lindsey without getting all of his tendency for self-indulgence. I don't think he is "hamstrung" as much as he is "refined" within the confines of FM.

True, but what that also does is weed out any tendency towards risk-taking, which is where a band's musical development comes from. Take no risks, you stand still, which is what they've done for years.

Indeed, BTM was not their best album ever, but I would hardly call it "tedious." In fact, it is arguably one of their more diverse, interesting efforts. It's an olio of all sorts of morsels - pop, blues, rockabilly, folk, prog rock, etc. At the end of the day, you can't help but give them a B+ for effort considering that their primary creative voice had departed. Nobody contributed their best material to the album, but it seems that the voices of Christine and Stevie can make practically anything sparkle.

I do think it's tedious. There are various genres on there, but we're dipping our toes into all of them, without really exploring any of them. It's blues lite, rockabilly lite, folk lite, and no prog rock at all. It was the result of using new members without really letting rip. Stevie was atrocious on parts of that album, which didn't help.

If you think BTM was "tedious," how on earth can you find Time "interesting?" There is nothing... nothing new, novel or fresh about Time. Don't get me wrong- I loved Christine's songs for the most part, but I do have to admit that the production/arrangements were pretty lackluster. Otherwise it's full of very bland California pop along with some soulless bluesy meanderings.

Well, there's no accounting for taste - Behind the Mask was lacklustre and in parts, really formulaic. "Stand on the Rock", anyone? Why Rick's better songs weren't used is a mystery. Yes, Time was interesting, starting with Bekka. Dave Mason's songs were ordinary but decent enough, and Christine's were fairly bland, but Bekka and Billy provided some really decent stuff. Even Mick got an outing for one of his weird pieces, something which had previously been restricted to B-sides ("Lizard People") or not tried at all. And there's no blues on Time.

I think the only album that was consciously moulded in homage of Rumours was Mirage. Otherwise, I have to disagree yet again. Although it is far from perfect the SYW album was perhaps the most far-reaching, ambitious album they've ever released, and Lindsey takes full credit or blame for this, depending on how you look at it. Other than the title track, I don't think there is a single song on that album that could have fit on Rumours.

Maybe you're listening to a different Say You Will to the one I have. I'd agree that Lindsey ran that show, and it's decent. Otherwise I'd say it was an exercise in making a Mac album that sounded half like a Lindsey solo album, and half like a Stevie outtake album. Still a good album though, don't get me wrong. I'd also agree that very few of those songs would have been comfortable on Rumours, but then 24 years will do that to a band. Why no album since then, by the way? Because there are no new ideas.

Well, I guess you are saying, in a roundabout way, that Stevie is the sole reason why Fleetwood Mac is/was successful?

:lol: No. I'd say she provided the style, while Lindsey provided the substance. Chris did a little of both. I fully believe that without Fleetwood Mac, Stevie would not have had much of a career.

:shocked:

I believe it was Lindsey who first posited the term "brand" around the time of The Dance. Say what you will about "branding," but it is definitely important. Look at what a nightmare it was when the fake Fleetwood Mac was touring the U.S. in the early 70s? And how would you feel if Benny and Bjorn reunited "ABBA" with new girl singers? It's one thing if they started a new band with a new name, but coopting the ABBA name would just be beyond the pale.

Then shame on him. The fake Mac was a different thing. There's worrying about a band stealing your name, and then there's worrying about protecting a brand at the expense of musical integrity. Again, ABBA were a different thing - they'd never had different members for a start, whereas Stevie and Lindsey were latecomers. That's what a lot of people don't get - Fleetwood Mac had always been a revolving door of members. If Peter Green could be replaced, then so could Stevie and Lindsey. Musically, it was possible of course, but they followed the money instead. Nothing wrong in that, but denying it is pointless. All four of them are chasing the dollars, and the music is a poor second. I love them as much as anyone, but I can't pretend to think otherwise.

[HomerMcvie]

Seriously?

I meant AFTER Rumours. Finally, a reinvention.

[HejiraNYC]

In reading the replies here, it seems there are some who like Behind the Mask and hate Time, while others hate Behind the Mask and like Time. :confused: I guess I like them both equally, but with FM its hard to "hate" and/or "like" an album w/contributions from multiple writers/vocalists.

Just for fun, what do you guys think Fleetwood Mac should have done in '87 when Lindsey left abruptly? I believe FM were obligated to tour - should they had canceled to tour and disbanded? :shrug:

I'm torn about whether they should have carried on after Lindsey left. On the one hand, I absolutely loved the Shake the Cage tour. On the other hand, the chemistry within the band was almost all gone. Yes, Billy and Rick are capable singers and guitarists. But they were terribly lacking in terms of gravitas. Sure, you could see and hear them on stage. But they were almost a distraction rather than someone you looked forward to seeing. I think it would have been one thing if they trotted out amazing songs or dazzled us with their showmanship and charisma. But their songs were middling, they were kind of dull to watch in concert and they, especially Rick, lacked charisma. They were club-sized personalities playing arenas.

I do believe they should have carried on. However, I think they should have carried on with someone who was a marquee name in his/her own right. Someone who was more of a singer/songwriter than an instrumentalist (and not necessarily a guitarist per se). Someone who could step up to the plate in terms of production and arrangement. Someone who could take Fleetwood Mac in another musical direction. Someone who can re-interpret Lindsey's songs in concert without sounding like karaoke. Trevor Rabin of Yes comes to mind. Tommy Shaw of Styx, perhaps? Billy Squier? In any case, after the Shake the Cage tour they should have probably bid Billy and Rick adieu and then searched in earnest for a permanent replacement for Lindsey.

[chiliD]

...they were kind of dull to watch in concert and they, especially Rick, lacked charisma. They were club-sized personalities playing arenas.

After playing hundreds of shows with Bob Seger's Silver Bullet Band and Jackson Browne, both "arena" sized acts, there's no way Rick was a "club-sized personality" and no "charisma"? :eek: You're sadly mistaken.

I do believe they should have carried on. However, I think they should have carried on with someone who was a marquee name in his/her own right. Someone who was more of a singer/songwriter than an instrumentalist (and not necessarily a guitarist per se). Someone who could step up to the plate in terms of production and arrangement. Someone who could take Fleetwood Mac in another musical direction.

Hmmmm...how about Dave Mason?? Oh, yeah, that didn't work, either. Next bright idea??

Trevor Rabin of Yes comes to mind. Tommy Shaw of Styx, perhaps? Billy Squier?

Oh LORD NOOOOOOOOO! (on any of those three)...talk about your "bland" personalities! YIKES!!!!

{sarcasm} Hell, maybe they should've gotten Ritchie Blackmore & Candice Night to replace BOTH Lindsey & Stevie?? {/sarcasm}


Just remember people, Behind The Mask went to # f-ing 1 in the UK charts and #18 in the US, so there were quite a few people who really didn't mind, or care, that Lindsey was gone.

[OutsideTheRain]

To me from a business standpoint....they should have done one of two things
Got someone like Eric Clapton, Joe Walsh, Bonnie Raitt, Santana or brought back Bob Welch (someone who had their own thing)
-OR-
They could have just incorporated Waddy Wachtel and joined the Stevie Nicks solo show into Fleetwood Mac. If she did her solo songs in that lineup, along with Christine's contributions, you wouldn't have needed another singer/writer.

I do think having to two guitarists post '87 was a mistake. Both incredibly talented guitarists, but you needed a writer/producer to replace Lindsey not just a guitar player.

[bretonbanquet]

Someone who can re-interpret Lindsey's songs in concert without sounding like karaoke. Trevor Rabin of Yes comes to mind. Tommy Shaw of Styx, perhaps? Billy Squier?

Hell!! Three of the dullest guys in rock. Instead of trying to find someone to re-interpret Lindsey's songs, they could just... write some new ones.


-OR-
They could have just incorporated Waddy Wachtel and joined the Stevie Nicks solo show into Fleetwood Mac. If she did her solo songs in that lineup, along with Christine's contributions, you wouldn't have needed another singer/writer.


:distress:

Or just open a sugar factory and be done with it :laugh:

[chiliD]

I do think having to two guitarists post '87 was a mistake. Both incredibly talented guitarists, but you needed a writer/producer to replace Lindsey not just a guitar player.

Billy was hired mainly as a singer, not so much as guitarist...Rick was brought in because he was a top-notch guitarist, that he could also write & sing was a plus.

No, it's not always a member of the band that makes a good producer; it just kind of happened that Lindsey worked (for the most part..but, sometimes that can be a detriment, too...Tusk?? Say You Will??)...they didn't have a member of the band as a producer prior to Rumours...and Ken Caillat & Richard Dashut shared producer credits with Lindsey after that.

[MacShadowsBall]

...Just remember people, Behind The Mask went to # f-ing 1 in the UK charts and #18 in the US, so there were quite a few people who really didn't mind, or care, that Lindsey was gone.

Exactly! I'm not a fan of Lindsey's songs anyway, so him gone didn't affect me liking Behind the Mask and Time.

As far as FM members, I'm more of a Christine / Stevie fan. Judging by the results of the battle of the songs so far, most Ledgies seem to agree. Lindsey's songs have yet to win an album battle. Christine and Stevie were the hit makers of the group, actually might be more Christine than Stevie.

"Group" meaning Rumours era...

Somebody wanna post the singles from the Rumours era and chart listings? :shrug:

[MacShadowsBall]

Okay according to wikipedia, Christine had 9 Top 40 hits, Stevie had 5, and Lindsey had 3. Thats from the US charts - Rumours Era.

[HejiraNYC]

After playing hundreds of shows with Bob Seger's Silver Bullet Band and Jackson Browne, both "arena" sized acts, there's no way Rick was a "club-sized personality" and no "charisma"? :eek: You're sadly mistaken.

Um... playing in an arena to support an arena act does not automatically give you an arena-sized personality. Rick has supported Fleetwood Mac and Stevie Nicks on their arena/shed tours. So what's your point? He's still as low-key and underwhelming as a live performer as ever.



Hmmmm...how about Dave Mason?? Oh, yeah, that didn't work, either. Next bright idea??

I didn't say "insert any has-been-over-the-hill-old-fart" as Lindsey's replacement. I think, perhaps with you as the sole exception, Dave Mason's appointment as a member of FM has been universally panned.



Oh LORD NOOOOOOOOO! (on any of those three)...talk about your "bland" personalities! YIKES!!!!

{sarcasm} Hell, maybe they should've gotten Ritchie Blackmore & Candice Night to replace BOTH Lindsey & Stevie?? {/sarcasm}

I was referring to singer/songwriters/guitarists who just happened to be somewhat available around the time Lindsey left the band. Yeah, we'd all love to see Eric Clapton and Paul McCartney in the band; and hey, what the hell... let's include George Harrison too. But we all know that's just too impossible to even speculate. I was talking about musicians who realistically could have fit with FM at the time- not necessarily the best in class. I personally love Trevor Rabin; he drastically refreshed the Yes sound while retaining the essence that made them who they are. He's a tremendous guitarist/singer/songwriter/producer, and his unique style is undeniable. I think it would be interesting to re-imagine Behind the Mask recorded in the style of Yes' Big Generator.


Just remember people, Behind The Mask went to # f-ing 1 in the UK charts and #18 in the US, so there were quite a few people who really didn't mind, or care, that Lindsey was gone.

Yes, it was the first FM studio album in eons not to crack the U.S. Top 10. Plus only one single charted in the U.S.- barely in the Top 40. The fact that it was such a bigger hit in the UK can be attributed directly to the overhang from Christine's Tango singles, which were mega-hits over there. The reality is that, despite Stevie's presence (her 1989 solo album quickly went Top 10 and gold), fans were balking at the presence of the new guys/lack of Lindsey. It was not a terrible album by any stretch. But it lacked the drama, the darkness, the passion of a Lindsey-helmed effort. The allure of the Rumours lineup has never been strictly about the music (for chrissakes, "Dreams" is a two-chord song!). It's always been about the unique voices/harmonies and personalities that created dramatic tension, and Lindsey was a huge part of that. It was the perfect chemical reaction. We've all heard various subsequent iterations with remnants of Rumours- Stevie and Chris, Chris, Stevie and Lindsey... but they never came close to the magic of the Rumours Five. To deny their compelling chemistry is pure delusion.

[chiliD]

I I personally love Trevor Rabin; he drastically refreshed the Yes sound while retaining the essence that made them who they are. He's a tremendous guitarist/singer/songwriter/producer, and his unique style is undeniable. I think it would be interesting to re-imagine Behind the Mask recorded in the style of Yes' Big Generator.

Well, personally, I thought he took Yes and changed them into a Journey/Styx/Foreigner clone band...just made them nauseating. "Owner Of A Lonely Heart"? Hand me the puke-bucket! So, as far as I'm concerned, keep him the hell away from Fleetwood Mac.

[HejiraNYC]

If you think Tusk was the most musically progressive album ever produced by anyone, then your record collection must be tiny.

I'm looking at the album within the context of its time. With bands like Wilco and Death Cab for Cutie now a dime-a-dozen, Tusk doesn't sound all that radical. But at the end of the '70s, no mainstream rock group was making music like this; considering that a sequel to Rumours was practically a given, they completely threw everyone a curve ball. This album came completely out of left field. It is as important in rock music as the trifecta of late 60s albums from the Beatles.

OK, I'll qualify my statement - of course it was a radical departure from Rumours, but only Lindsey was particularly creative on that album, and he was never really allowed to do it again :lol: Even then, a lot of his songs on there are pretty similar, and after a while, that stuff was too outré for Fleetwood Mac. Stevie and Chris weren't doing anything progressive on there. That's not to say it's not good - it is. But the creativity was limited to one member, and it did not resurface to any great degree on future albums.

I have to disagree. Yes, Lindsey went the furthest afield... but being different simply for the sake of being different does not automatically make you "creative." I think everyone flexed their creative muscles on this album. Christine, the master of 3-minute pop treats, delivered a surprisingly spare/unembellished jazz-tinged song like "Brown Eyes." Stevie took her ethereal persona to the nth degree in the sprawling epic "Sara." Sure, other songs remained true to form. But you simply can't have a Fleetwood Mac album that tries too hard not to sound like Fleetwood Mac!


True, but what that also does is weed out any tendency towards risk-taking, which is where a band's musical development comes from. Take no risks, you stand still, which is what they've done for years.

I really don't think you've listened to Say You Will. Sure, there are some safe, pleasant, radio-oriented singles on there- those are a given. But what about songs like "Everybody Finds Out," "Illume," "Murrow" and "Red Rover?" They've never, ever done anything like that before. And although the production of "Smile at You" has been almost universally hated (myself included), you can't deny that it ventures into totally new musical territory for FM.



I do think it's tedious. There are various genres on there, but we're dipping our toes into all of them, without really exploring any of them. It's blues lite, rockabilly lite, folk lite, and no prog rock at all. It was the result of using new members without really letting rip. Stevie was atrocious on parts of that album, which didn't help.

"In the Back of My Mind" is semi-prog. And I agree, Stevie's contributions on BTM were not among her best ever.


Well, there's no accounting for taste -

I know. I know because people have the audacity to defend Time. :lol:


Behind the Mask was lacklustre and in parts, really formulaic. "Stand on the Rock", anyone? Why Rick's better songs weren't used is a mystery. Yes, Time was interesting, starting with Bekka. Dave Mason's songs were ordinary but decent enough, and Christine's were fairly bland, but Bekka and Billy provided some really decent stuff. Even Mick got an outing for one of his weird pieces, something which had previously been restricted to B-sides ("Lizard People") or not tried at all. And there's no blues on Time.

Given your somewhat dubious praise of Time above, I think "Stand on the Rock" would have fit perfectly on it! In fact, I wish it was there and not on BTM.


Why no album since then, by the way? Because there are no new ideas.

Um... because Lindsey is an ass and Stevie misses Christine. Oops... it's no longer 2009. Um... I think Lindsey has been giving us nothing but "new ideas" since SYW. And Stevie is in the process of giving us something new. I think the fact that they have not gotten together is more of a political issue than an artistic issue.



:lol: No. I'd say she provided the style, while Lindsey provided the substance. Chris did a little of both. I fully believe that without Fleetwood Mac, Stevie would not have had much of a career.

Well, I think legions of Stevie fans would disagree, but she seems to be one of those extremely polarizing figures- you either love her or hate her. There is no such thing as being indifferent about Stevie Nicks.



Then shame on him. The fake Mac was a different thing. There's worrying about a band stealing your name, and then there's worrying about protecting a brand at the expense of musical integrity. Again, ABBA were a different thing - they'd never had different members for a start, whereas Stevie and Lindsey were latecomers. That's what a lot of people don't get - Fleetwood Mac had always been a revolving door of members. If Peter Green could be replaced, then so could Stevie and Lindsey. Musically, it was possible of course, but they followed the money instead. Nothing wrong in that, but denying it is pointless. All four of them are chasing the dollars, and the music is a poor second. I love them as much as anyone, but I can't pretend to think otherwise.

Well, when Peter Green left the band, they really had no choice but to carry on as Fleetwood Mac due to contractual obligations. And it seems that, in the past, whenever Fleetwood Mac changed its lineup, it was done in small increments for the sake of continuity- a member here, a member there, etc. I think the next logical step after BTM would have been a Chris, Billy, Rick, John and Mick lineup. Instead, Mick did the unthinkable... the almost unforgiveable... he tried to replace Stevie Nicks! He can deny it all he wants to, but it was no mere coincidence that he enlisted this new member who was a cute blonde chick singer who stood center stage. He failed to grasp then what he now knows the hard way- Stevie Nicks cannot be replaced. Period. Ask any Chiffonhead. There are just some things in the world that you just don't f*** with. You just don't f*** with Mama!

[Meowi]

What is Fleetwood Mac:

a) A popular 1960's british blues band, led by Peter Green
b) A new band headed by Christine Mcvie, Lindsey Buckingham and Stevie Nicks.

Peter, Christine, Lindsey and Stevie all have on thing in common - they are unique. Thats what made the Mac the Mac. You cannot just take them away - and call it the same.

[louielouie2000]

I guess I just fail to see how the Time chapter qualifies as forward movement or natural progression. To me it just seems utterly formulaic.

"A pretty blond front woman brought us fame before? Let's get another!"

"Bluesy music is how Fleetwood Mac got started? Let's capitalize on that!"

To me, the entire Time era just seems utterly contrived. If it was truly a step forward and a new beginning, the Time lineup would have come out with a new sound, a new look, they wouldn't have recruited random past members, or put a pretty blond girl out front in a shawl to sing Gold Dust Woman. I guess I just fail to see how a certain subset of folks on this board pan chiffonheads for their blind allegiance to Stevie, when they give the Time incarnation of the band the exact same latitude. It's pure hypocrisy. The whole Time experiment failed because it wasn't genuine, period. Yes, Fleetwood Mac is known for it's lineup changes... but by the time Time was released their image and persona was frozen in the public's mindset. There were no rebirths left in Fleetwood Mac.

The bottom line for me? Fleetwood Mac's namesake members have dismissed the Time incarnation... that's all I need to hear.

[TerraRhiannon]

I guess I just fail to see how the Time chapter qualifies as forward movement or natural progression. To me it just seems utterly formulaic.

"A pretty blond front woman brought us fame before? Let's get another!"

"Bluesy music is how Fleetwood Mac got started? Let's capitalize on that!"

To me, the entire Time era just seems utterly contrived. If it was truly a step forward and a new beginning, the Time lineup would have come out with a new sound, a new look, they wouldn't have recruited random past members, or put a pretty blond girl out front in a shawl to sing Gold Dust Woman. I guess I just fail to see how a certain subset of folks on this board pan chiffonheads for their blind allegiance to Stevie, when they give the Time incarnation of the band the exact same latitude. It's pure hypocrisy. The whole Time experiment failed because it wasn't genuine, period. Yes, Fleetwood Mac is known for it's lineup changes... but by the time Time was released their image and persona was frozen in the public's mindset. There were no rebirths left in Fleetwood Mac.

The bottom line for me? Fleetwood Mac's namesake members have dismissed the Time incarnation... that's all I need to hear.

I agree with everything you just said, Louie. And another thing if the Time lineup was a step forward it probably would have stayed like that, and they would have made more records. When you say the image of the band was frozen in the public's mindset you are absolutely right - along with the band's mindset. During The Dance rehearsal interview Mick said: This is THEE lineup of Fleetwood Mac." 'Nuff said. Also I find it odd that the band doesn't even acknowledge Time, I think I said that in another thread somewhere. That makes me not want to listen to it. While we're picking, just for fun - what is up with the album art? That alone makes me not want to listen to it - B-o-r-i-n-g. :shrug: I'm not apologizing for that one. :p:lol:

[chiliD]

I guess I just fail to see how the Time chapter qualifies as forward movement or natural progression. To me it just seems utterly formulaic.

"A pretty blond front woman brought us fame before? Let's get another!"

"Bluesy music is how Fleetwood Mac got started? Let's capitalize on that!"

To me, the entire Time era just seems utterly contrived. If it was truly a step forward and a new beginning, the Time lineup would have come out with a new sound, a new look, they wouldn't have recruited random past members, or put a pretty blond girl out front in a shawl to sing Gold Dust Woman. I guess I just fail to see how a certain subset of folks on this board pan chiffonheads for their blind allegiance to Stevie, when they give the Time incarnation of the band the exact same latitude. It's pure hypocrisy. The whole Time experiment failed because it wasn't genuine, period. Yes, Fleetwood Mac is known for it's lineup changes... but by the time Time was released their image and persona was frozen in the public's mindset. There were no rebirths left in Fleetwood Mac.

The bottom line for me? Fleetwood Mac's namesake members have dismissed the Time incarnation... that's all I need to hear.

What the Time bashers seem to overlook is that Bekka had been in Mick's sideband The Zoo for three years before Mick asked her to be in the newly reconstituted Fleetwood Mac. Same with Billy Burnette...he was in The Zoo a couple of incarnations prior to Bekka. Nothing contrived there...it was just a natural progression. It wasn't as if Mick & John held 12 hour a day auditions until they found "THE" blonde singer to take Stevie's place. (Unlike, let's say, JOURNEY, who purposely did a worldwide search for a Steve Perry soundalike) IF Mick was TRYING to find a "replacement" for Stevie Nicks, there are a whole lot of Stevie Nicks wannabes floating around Southern California that he could've chosen f rom. He didn't.

The only part of "contrived" was Dave Mason...Mick was looking elsewhere for a lead guitarist and Dave just bugged him until his defenses were down and Mick relented.

The problem is that once again (just like when he had the choice of making less money but keeping Peter Green or going for the "green" and eventually LOSING Peter Green), Mick went for the almighty dollar over doing something more creative with a new lineup of Fleetwood Mac. Instead of possibly reinventing Fleetwood Mac into an entity with integrity, he went for the quick payday and sold out to "what had already been"...you can't recreate the past...but, Mick tried, got his payday, but lost a whole lot of respect in the process.

[bretonbanquet]

Okay according to wikipedia, Christine had 9 Top 40 hits, Stevie had 5, and Lindsey had 3. Thats from the US charts - Rumours Era.

Over here in the UK, Christine had 4 Top 40 hits, Lindsey had 4, and Stevie had 2. Chris and Lindsey had 2 Top 10 hits each, while Stevie's best shot was "Dreams" at #24.

Peter had 6 Top 40 hits, and if you count re-releases, it was 8. Actually, all of his singles went Top 40.


Yes, it was the first FM studio album in eons not to crack the U.S. Top 10. Plus only one single charted in the U.S.- barely in the Top 40. The fact that it was such a bigger hit in the UK can be attributed directly to the overhang from Christine's Tango singles, which were mega-hits over there.

True fact. Even Time charted over here. None of Behind the Mask's or Time's singles reached the Top 50 here though. "Save Me" was a hit in Europe but not in the UK. Fleetwood Mac have only had 2 charting songs in the last 20 years in the UK - "Love Shines" (#83) and "The Chain" (#94) after it was reinstalled as the theme music to the Formula One coverage.

[bretonbanquet]

I'm looking at the album within the context of its time. With bands like Wilco and Death Cab for Cutie now a dime-a-dozen, Tusk doesn't sound all that radical. But at the end of the '70s, no mainstream rock group was making music like this; considering that a sequel to Rumours was practically a given, they completely threw everyone a curve ball. This album came completely out of left field. It is as important in rock music as the trifecta of late 60s albums from the Beatles.

I'll agree that 70s mainstream rock bands weren't doing anything radical, particularly in the US, but over here, punk had pushed rock bands into doing different things. It might be a US/UK thing - Tusk is all but forgotten here. I have to disagree strongly about that last sentence though...

I have to disagree. Yes, Lindsey went the furthest afield... but being different simply for the sake of being different does not automatically make you "creative." I think everyone flexed their creative muscles on this album. Christine, the master of 3-minute pop treats, delivered a surprisingly spare/unembellished jazz-tinged song like "Brown Eyes." Stevie took her ethereal persona to the nth degree in the sprawling epic "Sara." Sure, other songs remained true to form. But you simply can't have a Fleetwood Mac album that tries too hard not to sound like Fleetwood Mac!

"Brown Eyes" was a little different for Chris, but her other songs were typical Christine. I'm not really knocking that as such, because she had a formula which worked. So did Stevie, and changing it was a risk - they were already a bit shackled by their success.

I really don't think you've listened to Say You Will. Sure, there are some safe, pleasant, radio-oriented singles on there- those are a given. But what about songs like "Everybody Finds Out," "Illume," "Murrow" and "Red Rover?" They've never, ever done anything like that before. And although the production of "Smile at You" has been almost universally hated (myself included), you can't deny that it ventures into totally new musical territory for FM.

"Illumé" I find hard to listen to :sorry: "Murrow" and "Red Rover" were a bit of a departure, but not in terms of what Lindsey had been doing outside Mac, which most Mac fans would have been familiar with. That's what I mean by it sounding half like a Lindsey solo album.


I know. I know because people have the audacity to defend Time. :lol:

Gotta stand up for your beliefs! ;) I think the big difference is whether you view it as a standalone album and take it on its merits, or compare it to what went before.

Given your somewhat dubious praise of Time above, I think "Stand on the Rock" would have fit perfectly on it! In fact, I wish it was there and not on BTM.

Probably true, but then Bekka's backing vocals might have dragged it up a notch or two.

Um... because Lindsey is an ass and Stevie misses Christine. Oops... it's no longer 2009. Um... I think Lindsey has been giving us nothing but "new ideas" since SYW. And Stevie is in the process of giving us something new. I think the fact that they have not gotten together is more of a political issue than an artistic issue.

Lindsey has had new ideas, but clearly nobody felt they were suitable to become Fleetwood Mac songs. Stevie's coming up with new stuff? :shocked: I sense the fabric of the space-time continuum straining under the shock :laugh: I'd say a new album hasn't happened because of both political and artistic issues.

Well, I think legions of Stevie fans would disagree, but she seems to be one of those extremely polarizing figures- you either love her or hate her. There is no such thing as being indifferent about Stevie Nicks.

Oh, I definitely don't hate her. I rather like her actually - she seems like a decent sort, and I do like her Mac stuff up to and including Mirage. After that, not so much, and her solo stuff I find a bit patchy. I do understand the fascination with her (I had expert help :D) even though I don't join in.

Well, when Peter Green left the band, they really had no choice but to carry on as Fleetwood Mac due to contractual obligations. And it seems that, in the past, whenever Fleetwood Mac changed its lineup, it was done in small increments for the sake of continuity- a member here, a member there, etc. I think the next logical step after BTM would have been a Chris, Billy, Rick, John and Mick lineup. Instead, Mick did the unthinkable... the almost unforgiveable... he tried to replace Stevie Nicks! He can deny it all he wants to, but it was no mere coincidence that he enlisted this new member who was a cute blonde chick singer who stood center stage. He failed to grasp then what he now knows the hard way- Stevie Nicks cannot be replaced. Period. Ask any Chiffonhead. There are just some things in the world that you just don't f*** with. You just don't f*** with Mama!

I guess I just fail to see how the Time chapter qualifies as forward movement or natural progression. To me it just seems utterly formulaic.

"A pretty blond front woman brought us fame before? Let's get another!"

"Bluesy music is how Fleetwood Mac got started? Let's capitalize on that!"

To me, the entire Time era just seems utterly contrived. If it was truly a step forward and a new beginning, the Time lineup would have come out with a new sound, a new look, they wouldn't have recruited random past members, or put a pretty blond girl out front in a shawl to sing Gold Dust Woman. I guess I just fail to see how a certain subset of folks on this board pan chiffonheads for their blind allegiance to Stevie, when they give the Time incarnation of the band the exact same latitude. It's pure hypocrisy. The whole Time experiment failed because it wasn't genuine, period. Yes, Fleetwood Mac is known for it's lineup changes... but by the time Time was released their image and persona was frozen in the public's mindset. There were no rebirths left in Fleetwood Mac.

The bottom line for me? Fleetwood Mac's namesake members have dismissed the Time incarnation... that's all I need to hear.

I think new members were brought in for different reasons in the early 70s - generally non-musical reasons. I don't know if Bekka was supposed to be a direct Stevie-replacement - after all, the only thing they had in common was that they were both blonde and cute. It was a bad idea to have her sing Stevie's songs - I don't really see the point in that. But at that time, Chris wasn't there, and maybe it seemed odd not to have any girls in the band. I'd say that it was more cock-up than conspiracy - it sounds like a risky idea that didn't work on the grounds that it wasn't popular with the existing fans. It worked musically as a standalone thing, but yes, Mac had gone too far along the Rumours road for anything else to really catch on. So that's why Mac are where they are. Incidentally, they have all but dismissed the '70-'74 incarnations as well - I'd say because there's no money in it.

[tilthefirefades]

If the Behind The Mask and Time lineups were so progressive, unique, or even great, why didn't they last? Because the fans wanted Stevie, Lindsey, and Christine, hence The Dance's success. No matter what anyone says, without Stevie, there is no Fleetwood Mac. In the real world, outside of The Ledge, and outside of hardcore fans, the only song that people will always know is Landslide. Then you have some people that know Dreams, Gold Dust Woman, and Go Your Own Way. Then you have even less people that know Don't Stop and maybe Gypsy or Hold Me. I know this because at my job, Gypsy or Don't Stop will play and I'm all "omg!!!" and they give me blank stares. I say "Fleetwood Mac?", and their response is "Oh..". I am in no way saying that Stevie is the most important, most talented, or most anything other than that she has become Fleetwood Mac.

Also, I would say Oh Well is much more tired than Rumours.

[SuperFleetwood]

i kinda liked btm and time, i liked christines song, nights in estoril!

[elle]

the only song that people will always know is Landslide.
Uhmm - can it be b/c of Dixie Chicks version? If you check youtube comments it seems that many people were saying "oh, I didn't know this was FM song!"

Then you have some people that know Dreams, Gold Dust Woman, and Go Your Own Way. Then you have even less people that know Don't Stop and maybe Gypsy or Hold Me.
Everywhere? Little Lies? The Chain? Tusk/USC? SHN seems to be used as a background for everything and everywhere these days...

[elle]

Although it is far from perfect the SYW album was perhaps the most far-reaching, ambitious album they've ever released, and Lindsey takes full credit or blame for this, depending on how you look at it. Other than the title track, I don't think there is a single song on that album that could have fit on Rumours.
Agree! Although I'd say Thrown Down could be Rumours-fitting song too.

[elle]

I'm more of a Christine / Stevie fan. Judging by the results of the battle of the songs so far, most Ledgies seem to agree. Lindsey's songs have yet to win an album battle.
I find the song battle interesting and more of a reflection of the numbers of Stevie's fans vs Lindsey's and other fans on the Ledge (just look at the number of Stevie threads vs others), which can probably be safely generalized beyond the Ledge as also reflected in their US solo sales numbers over the years.
According to the charts you qouted, Christine was the biggest hit-maker of the band providing all those slick pop songs (I've heard somebody's opinion that she is McCartney of the Mac), and I haven't seen that refelected in the battle of the songs so far - although it seems that Little Lies finally has a chance.

[iamnotafraid]

Well, when Peter Green left the band, they really had no choice but to carry on as Fleetwood Mac due to contractual obligations. And it seems that, in the past, whenever Fleetwood Mac changed its lineup, it was done in small increments for the sake of continuity- a member here, a member there, etc. I think the next logical step after BTM would have been a Chris, Billy, Rick, John and Mick lineup. Instead, Mick did the unthinkable... the almost unforgiveable... he tried to replace Stevie Nicks! He can deny it all he wants to, but it was no mere coincidence that he enlisted this new member who was a cute blonde chick singer who stood center stage. He failed to grasp then what he now knows the hard way- Stevie Nicks cannot be replaced. Period.

Good work HejiraNYC. If that's what Mick did, and it seems to be true,
to replace Stevie with another hot blonde (notice I did say hot - talented
too) was a big mistake. If I wanted to see an impersonator I could pick
one of the thousands of Elvi (yes, Elvi) to go and see. It would have been
better to not sing the Stevie hits with Bekka.

What puzzles me is that when Lindsey quit the band before they headed
out on the Tango Tour, what happened to the concert goers who didn't have
the benefit of knowing Mr. Buckingham had called it quits?

I remember hearing about it on Entertainment Tonight. You know the days
before the internet! I think I would have been both mad and sick to find out
at the show the creative driving force behind the Mac wasn't showing up. Even
though at the time I was more a Stevie fan than Lindsey.

Same situation with the other light version of the Mac. I believe I heard they
were coming to New Orleans to put on a show (or somewhere in that region).
Again I would have been sick to find out that Lindsey and Stevie weren't apart
of this. Wonder how many people walked out after they found out the stars
weren't there?

[MacShadowsBall]

I find the song battle interesting and more of a reflection of the numbers of Stevie's fans vs Lindsey's and other fans on the Ledge (just look at the number of Stevie threads vs others), which can probably be safely generalized beyond the Ledge as also reflected in their US solo sales numbers over the years.
According to the charts you qouted, Christine was the biggest hit-maker of the band providing all those slick pop songs (I've heard somebody's opinion that she is McCartney of the Mac), and I haven't seen that refelected in the battle of the songs so far - although it seems that Little Lies finally has a chance.

Christine basically provided 2 hits for each Rumours era album.

As far as the "Battle of the Songs" goes, Christine is doing very well in the Pre-Rumours era and won the Behind the Mask battle. So she is providing good competition. Actually she might end up with more winners that Stevie! Poor Lindsey though :distress: - he'll have at least 1 song maybe 2, if he wins the Say You Will battle.

[elle]

As far as the "Battle of the Songs" goes, Christine is doing very well in the Pre-Rumours era and won the Behind the Mask battle. So she is providing good competition. Actually she might end up with more winners that Stevie! Poor Lindsey though :distress: - he'll have at least 1 song maybe 2, if he wins the Say You Will battle.

Yeah, however my understanding is that the statistics you provided of Christine having the most huge chart hits in the US was for the Rumours-era songs, not overall Mac Christine's songs (which I think you are talking about when listing how Christine may end up with more winners than Stevie in the battle of the songs). So far, all the Rumours-era albums (except for the Chain, which has Stevie as a co-writer of course) have Stevie's song as a winner - which does not really reflect the chart statistics you provided.:sorry: And it's even more skewed when you look how big these Stevie songs have won over the runner-up.

Please don't get me wrong, I love your polls, they are one of the reasons I joined the Ledge, I'm just trying to provide some constructive discussion about over-interpreting the data (I deal a lot with statisticians in my real life, what can I say - I hear a lot of bias-calling!:D).

As far as potential Lindsey wins, sorry I don't see that happening. Which of his songs would you predict might win SYW poll?:confused: Yes, Peacekeeper was the only radio hit from SYW, but I'm not sure it will even win Lindsey's songs there (he has too many good songs on SYW...:nod:). I would sooner expect maybe Thrown Down winning, or even Everybody Finds Out... but we'll see maybe I'm completely off!:laugh:

[Street_Dreamer]

If the Behind The Mask and Time lineups were so progressive, unique, or even great, why didn't they last? Because the fans wanted Stevie, Lindsey, and Christine, hence The Dance's success.

Which is why Fleetwood Mac is in the quagmire it's in. Same old same old.

No matter what anyone says, without Stevie, there is no Fleetwood Mac.

Wrong. Fleetwood Mac starts with Mick Fleetwood and ends with John McVie. Without either, Fleetwood Mac does not exist.

Also, I would say Oh Well is much more tired than Rumours.

Not by a long shot. It took the band almost 20+ years to cave in and perform this classic. Meanwhile all incarnations of the band between continued to play songs from Rumours. The same tired old songs.

Matt

[tilthefirefades]

Uhmm - can it be b/c of Dixie Chicks version? If you check youtube comments it seems that many people were saying "oh, I didn't know this was FM song!"


That was my point ;)


Wrong. Fleetwood Mac starts with Mick Fleetwood and ends with John McVie. Without either, Fleetwood Mac does not exist.
Matt

Wrong? I want you to go out and poll people on which Fleetwood Mac member they recognize. It won't be either of them.

[bretonbanquet]

If the Behind The Mask and Time lineups were so progressive, unique, or even great, why didn't they last? Because the fans wanted Stevie, Lindsey, and Christine, hence The Dance's success. No matter what anyone says, without Stevie, there is no Fleetwood Mac. In the real world, outside of The Ledge, and outside of hardcore fans, the only song that people will always know is Landslide. Then you have some people that know Dreams, Gold Dust Woman, and Go Your Own Way. Then you have even less people that know Don't Stop and maybe Gypsy or Hold Me. I know this because at my job, Gypsy or Don't Stop will play and I'm all "omg!!!" and they give me blank stares. I say "Fleetwood Mac?", and their response is "Oh..". I am in no way saying that Stevie is the most important, most talented, or most anything other than that she has become Fleetwood Mac.

Also, I would say Oh Well is much more tired than Rumours.

I don't think anyone would disagree that Stevie has the most fanatical fans, and therefore she has the biggest fan presence. Yes, those fans just want Stevie, which is why Fleetwood Mac are what they are today - their own tribute band.

Frankly nothing is more tired than Rumours. That album has been worked to death, regardless of its undeniable quality.

I can't speak for the US, but here in the UK, Stevie really isn't a well-known figure these days. Very few people under 30 would have a clue who she is. Fleetwood Mac were well-known as a band, without any individual standing out. Probably because Christine had the most hits, as many as Lindsey, with Stevie having very few. I'd take a stab and say that either "Albatross", "Everywhere" or "Little Lies" are the best-known Mac songs here, then "Don't Stop" and "Go Your Own Way". I'd be surprised if many people knew "Landslide" at all. The end of "The Chain" is very well-known thanks to TV, but I doubt many people know it's Fleetwood Mac.

[elle]

That was my point ;).
Ah:laugh: - I was jumping to the conclusions obviously:sorry:, after just glancing over "... without Stevie, there is no Fleetwood Mac. ... the only song that people will always know is Landslide. ... I am in no way saying that Stevie is the most ... anything other than that she has become Fleetwood Mac. "

[elle]

I can't speak for the US, but here in the UK, Stevie really isn't a well-known figure these days. ... Fleetwood Mac were well-known as a band, without any individual standing out. Probably because Christine had the most hits, as many as Lindsey, with Stevie having very few. I'd take a stab and say that either "Albatross", "Everywhere" or "Little Lies" are the best-known Mac songs here, then "Don't Stop" and "Go Your Own Way". I'd be surprised if many people knew "Landslide" at all. The end of "The Chain" is very well-known thanks to TV, but I doubt many people know it's Fleetwood Mac.
I have to absolutely agree with that, being originally from the European side of the pond. And, I'd probably extend your statement beyond just <30 crowd. Most people there know/knew FM band, not the individual members. I'd suspect if Stevie would ever tour solo in Europe, that tour wouldn't fill any more seats that if Lindsey toured solo - but I may be overstreching...
Still can't get over how almost nobody in the US knows Albatross:shocked: - from what I could remember it was as huge as something like "Smoke on the water" all around Europe at its time, and it's still played on every summer terrace...

[tilthefirefades]

I don't think anyone would disagree that Stevie has the most fanatical fans, and therefore she has the biggest fan presence. Yes, those fans just want Stevie, which is why Fleetwood Mac are what they are today - their own tribute band.

Frankly nothing is more tired than Rumours. That album has been worked to death, regardless of its undeniable quality.

I can't speak for the US, but here in the UK, Stevie really isn't a well-known figure these days. Very few people under 30 would have a clue who she is. Fleetwood Mac were well-known as a band, without any individual standing out. Probably because Christine had the most hits, as many as Lindsey, with Stevie having very few. I'd take a stab and say that either "Albatross", "Everywhere" or "Little Lies" are the best-known Mac songs here, then "Don't Stop" and "Go Your Own Way". I'd be surprised if many people knew "Landslide" at all. The end of "The Chain" is very well-known thanks to TV, but I doubt many people know it's Fleetwood Mac.

I'll admit that I no nothing about Fleetwood Mac's impact and influence in other countries, so I apologize for my post's ignorance in that respect. I still can't imagine Fleetwood Mac being half as successful in the past decade without Stevie. At this point, unfortunately, she is what Fleetwood Mac is remembered for.

[Street_Dreamer]

Wrong? I want you to go out and poll people on which Fleetwood Mac member they recognize. It won't be either of them.

It doesn't matter how many people recognize them in comparison to Stevie or any other member for that matter. It's THEIR band. They are the ones who've kept it going more than four decades. Stevie and every other member of the band after 1969 not named Mick Fleetwood or John McVie are beneficiaries of their tenacity (or in Mick's case hunger for money.)

Matt

[bretonbanquet]

I have to absolutely agree with that, being originally from the European side of the pond. And, I'd probably extend your statement beyond just <30 crowd. Most people there know/knew FM band, not the individual members. I'd suspect if Stevie would ever tour solo in Europe, that tour wouldn't fill any more seats that if Lindsey toured solo - but I may be overstreching...
Still can't get over how almost nobody in the US knows Albatross:shocked: - from what I could remember it was as huge as something like "Smoke on the water" all around Europe at its time, and it's still played on every summer terrace...

I think you might be right. Neither Stevie nor Lindsey would ever sell out big venues over here, and if anything, Lindsey might fare better. I agree about "Albatross" - it went Top 5 here twice in about three years, and it was the same in Germany, Scandinavia etc, and you still hear it all the time.

I'll admit that I no nothing about Fleetwood Mac's impact and influence in other countries, so I apologize for my post's ignorance in that respect. I still can't imagine Fleetwood Mac being half as successful in the past decade without Stevie. At this point, unfortunately, she is what Fleetwood Mac is remembered for.

That's okay :) And yes, she is what Fleetwood Mac is known for. In the States.

[vivfox]

"Albatross" - it went Top 5 here twice in about three years, and it was the same in Germany, Scandinavia etc, and you still hear it all the time.


You are very lucky to hear that as a radio staple. It's been a regularly listened to song every 2 weeks when I get a massage( I program the music).
If the radio stations played that in America it would be so much nicer than hearing the usual staple songs we get. It is a beautiful song!

[iamnotafraid]

I appreciate your opinion iamnotafraid, but what exactly do you feel was the death of Fleetwood Mac - the Behind the Mask and Time albums themselves, or the new members. What in your opinion makes the albums so bad or individual new members so bad? Should the band had called it quits when Peter or even Lindsey left?


If Fleetwood Mac would have ended with either Behind The Mask or
Time how do you think they would be remembered? Or even worse,
conitinued on with the line-ups of either of those two albums?

If I joined Mick and John would it still be Fleetwood Mac?

The only positive things to come from those two albums were the songs:
Skies The Limit - Hard Feelings - Winds of Change

And to answer your question, "should they have called it quits after Peter
left?". Well the only reason I'm glad they didn't is obvious, it lead to Lindsey
and Stevie joining.

"Quit after Lindsey left?" YES.

[bretonbanquet]

If Fleetwood Mac would have ended with either Behind The Mask or
Time how do you think they would be remembered? Or even worse,
conitinued on with the line-ups of either of those two albums?

In terms of musical output? They'd be remembered in the same way. In terms of touring and thrashing the same songs to death for years and years - yeah, probably they have a higher profile.

If I joined Mick and John would it still be Fleetwood Mac?

Yes.

The only positive things to come from those two albums were the songs:
Skies The Limit - Hard Feelings - Winds of Change

And to answer your question, "should they have called it quits after Peter
left?". Well the only reason I'm glad they didn't is obvious, it lead to Lindsey
and Stevie joining.

"Quit after Lindsey left?" YES.

Just your opinion :shrug:

[MacShadowsBall]

If Fleetwood Mac would have ended with either Behind The Mask or
Time how do you think they would be remembered? Or even worse,
conitinued on with the line-ups of either of those two albums?
If I joined Mick and John would it still be Fleetwood Mac?

The only positive things to come from those two albums were the songs:
Skies The Limit - Hard Feelings - Winds of Change

And to answer your question, "should they have called it quits after Peter
left?". Well the only reason I'm glad they didn't is obvious, it lead to Lindsey
and Stevie joining.

"Quit after Lindsey left?" YES.

If Fleetwood Mac would've ended after Behind the Mask or Time, Fleetwood Mac would be remembered for their Rumours era albums, Oh Wait!!! That's what their remembered for now!!

Personally I glad FM never called it quits, look at what great music the world would have missed out on if they quit when Peter and others along the way left the band. FM could have easily ended when Welch quit. I'm sure Mick, John, Christine were fed up with the revolving door of guitarists, and could have just as easily "pick up their pieces and go home". :nod:

As far as the Dance reunion two years after Time goes ,while people wanted the Fab 5 back together, people didn't want Stevie and Lindsey to quit to begin with. The "failure" of Time, does not mean fans wanted Stevie and Lindsey back. It just means that fans didn't like the Time album. One thing doesn't always mean or relate to some bigger thing.

[iamnotafraid]

The "failure" of Time, does not mean fans wanted Stevie and Lindsey back. It just means that fans didn't like the Time album. One thing doesn't always mean or relate to some bigger thing.

The fans who don't keep up with the line-up changes like some of us rabid
fans, would have bought that album and wondered what in the world happened
to the great Fleetwood Mac. "No Lindsey, no Stevie...you've got to be kidding",
I can just hear them saying.

Since we've all been talking about Time and Behind The Mask, I've been suffering
through listening to these albums again. And while looking through BTM booklet
I found an old review from an audio magazine. I'll post it later.

[sjpdg]

With some different song choices and better promotion, "BTM" probably would have done better and been more widely accepted by the public and perhaps even some of the Buckingham/Nicks-ites out there.

Had that line up lasted, then theoretically "Time" would have been a much better album with or without Stevie due to her solo career and back and forth issues with Mick. Rick and Billy could have further stretched their creative muscles (which are considerable both as a duo and as solo artists), and if Stevie had not stuck around for "Time", then (again theoretically) perhaps that would have been the change over to Bekka joining the band or some other female personnel change.

But this is all theoretical/hypothesis/"what if" stuff.

[vivfox]

With some different song choices and better promotion, "BTM" probably would have done better and been more widely accepted and if Stevie had not stuck around for "Time", then (again theoretically) perhaps that would have been the change over to Bekka joining the band or some other female personnel change.


She didn't.

[iamnotafraid]

With some different song choices "BTM" probably would have done better...

I'd substitute the words "lots of" for the word "some".

[David]

Instead, Mick did the unthinkable... the almost unforgiveable... he tried to replace Stevie Nicks! He can deny it all he wants to, but it was no mere coincidence that he enlisted this new member who was a cute blonde chick singer who stood center stage. He failed to grasp then what he now knows the hard way- Stevie Nicks cannot be replaced. Period. Ask any Chiffonhead. There are just some things in the world that you just don't f*** with. You just don't f*** with Mama!
Actually, I think Stevie Nicks can easily be replaced. Replace her with Jazzmen Flowers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UV2ykrB65Vc
Jazzmen's energetic pastiche kicks Stevie's poor old ass into the nether reaches.

But I'm enjoying reading what you guys all have to say.

[iamnotafraid]

This review was tucked into the BTM CD booklet.
I believe it was from the magazine Stereo Review.
The initials P.P. were credited. So this is how it was
looked at back in 1990...

Fleetwood Mac: Behind The Mask.

Performance: Solid but cautious
Recording: Airy, well-ballanced

The professionalism with which "Behind The Mask" was
produced is sufficient evidence that Fleetwood Mac has
landed on it's feet after losing it's creative mainstay, Lindsey
Buckingham. It is at least as much of a group effort as anything
the notoriously unstable Mac has turned out to date. Behind The
Mask, however, some essential spark is missing. New guitarist Rick
Vito and Billy Burnette add fluid solos and lively chording, respectively,
but they're reined in by spotless, homogenized arrangements that leave
precious little room for expression. Even Stevie Nicks out-there personality
has been sanded down and subsumed into a conservative, democratic mix.

After many years of willful experimentation from Buckingham, the suddenly
rudderless band has played it safe and paddled closer to shore. The air of
caution is compounded by an aura of melancholy that invades nearly every
song, Christine McVie's "Skies The Limit", the opening cut, being a notable
exception. It's as invigorating as a spring breeze, featuring gorgeous, billowy
group vocals and some lovely guitar work from Vito. But this exuberant
outburst quickly yields to songs of an autumnal cast-all of them attractive,
to be sure, if somewhat muted in temperment. McVie, singing of unfulfilled
desire and wary attraction, provides the most memorable songs (Do You
Know and Save Me) and seems to have the surest handle on a consistent
direction for the band. By no means a bad album, "Behind The Mask" is
instead a tentative and probably transitional one: smooth on the outside,
uncertain on the inside.

P.P.

[iamnotafraid]

Still torturing myself...

There is one hot picture of Bekka in
the Time CD booklet. I don't
remember seeing that black and white
photo before.

I'd forgot that Time was released
just two years before The Dance.
We are lucky that MTV wanted anything
to do with the Mac after Time.

[iamnotafraid]

I've been searching for professional reviews concerning Time,
anyone care to post them. Doesn't have to agree with my feelings
on the album, I'm just curious to read them. Thanks.

[HejiraNYC]

I've been searching for professional reviews concerning Time,
anyone care to post them. Doesn't have to agree with my feelings
on the album, I'm just curious to read them. Thanks.

I think Amazon's editorial review sums it up rather nicely:


The temptation is to compare this version of Fleetwood Mac with the multiplatinum quintet that peaked in the '70s and then made a triumphant return in 1997. But there've been some half dozen versions of Mac over the last 28 years, some significantly more memorable than others. This 1995 lineup isn't likely to make anyone forget Rumours. Three stalwart members--Mick Fleetwood, John McVie, and Christine McVie--are back, joined by 10-year Mac vet Billy Burnette and short-term members Bekka Bramlett (the daughter of first generation Mac contemporaries Delaney and Bonnie Bramlett) and journeyman rocker Dave Mason. The spotlight inevitably shines brightest upon McVie, who responds with four songs that are never less, or more, than pleasant. For their part, Burnette, Bramlett, and Mason check in with mostly nondescript contributions. --Steven Stolder

[holidayroad]

Just for fun, what do you guys think Fleetwood Mac should have done in '87 when Lindsey left abruptly? I believe FM were obligated to tour - should they had canceled to tour and disbanded? :shrug:

At the time it happened, I guess I felt they did what they had to do when they brought on Billy and Rick. Now, I think they should have brought in a 'background' guitar player and let Christine and Stevie front the band. (No offense to Billy Burnette, I really like his music!)

[iamnotafraid]

Thanks HejiraNYC.

I'm still searching for more reviews on TIME.

[SteveMacD]

Warning, it's long, but worth it:


“Time” didn’t kill Fleetwood Mac. It was merely one more step in what has really been a slow, agonizing death that's been going on for 30 years now.

As a (creative) viable entity, Fleetwood Mac really died in 1980, after the “Tusk” tour. After that, it became something the principle members have done between solo albums.

The subsequent albums have either been bland, sterile AOR efforts (Mirage, BTM, Time), or failed over-the-top attempts at trying to reinvent/modernize the band’s sound (Tango, SYW).

That the band has only recorded five albums in 30 years should really be the only thing one needs to understand Fleetwood Mac's post-Tusk relevancy (or lack thereof). To put it another way, I’ve been to three studio sessions where Robert Pollard recorded two solo albums (where he plays guitar and sings) and one collaboration (where he overdubs vocals to music that his collaborator sends him), played in a one-off solo Robert Pollard show, AND was a roadie for Robert Pollard & co. for the Guided by Voices 20 city reunion tour. It CAN be done, folks.

But, if we want to nitpick...

I think the image of Fleetwood Mac changed too drastically in 1987. “Tango” was a huge hit because the band had gone away for five years. That the band was back was good enough. The actual quality of the album (not bad, but it sounded dated not too long after its release) really didn’t matter. They were back.

However, Stevie’s transformation was fairly drastic. She went from being a slender bombshell with a decent range to looking bloated and had a much more limited range.

Then Lindsey quit. Where the band ultimately failed, would continue to fail, and is still failing, is that instead of distancing itself from “the Big Mac”, it has tried (in vein) to recapture that, even while paying lip service to NOT doing that. IMO, if bringing Dave Mason was in the cards, 1987 would’ve been the time to do it, and do it as a five piece. What made Mason a liability in 1994/95 (namely that he was used to being a band leader) is exactly what the band needed in 1987. The fact that he had somewhat of a name still (though admittedly not much of one by that point) would’ve given the band more freedom to move away from “the Big Mac” image. As it is, Billy and Rick were good additions at the time, and were able to pull off the tour. Billy sounded great with Stevie and Christine, and Rick was able to bring back the blues element that really left the band (at least in terms of the shows) sometime in 1975. The problem is that they tried to make Billy look like Lindsey in the beginning. His clothes were similar, his hair was similar, and he played a white Les Paul Custom.

After the tour, the band releases a Greatest Hits record, which should be the first clue that the band thinks it’s probably over, and that anything that comes after will be okay, but probably not great. It’s the white flag. It’s their signal that it’s over.

Stevie Nicks released OSOTM, which only further hurt Fleetwood Mac’s image. The Klonopin was starting to take its toll. Now Stevie looked old and tired, and had almost no range. The songs were bland AOR, complete with Kenny G. She looked like a has-been by that point.

BTM was a bland, safe effort. Stevie’s contributions were unremarkable (as in she used her best material at that time on her solo album...INCLUDING A BLUES SONG...gee, three British blues legends and a brilliant blues guitarist in Fleetwood Mac, and she does her blues song ON A SOLO ALBUM...WTF???). Christine was typical Christine: safe, reassuring, sometimes bland, sometimes dark and great pop songs. Billy and Rick had great contributions, but their best material was left off the record for some inexplicable reason. The production was horrid.

After the tour, the band basically splits up. Rick quits and puts out a record. Stevie quits, releases a solo Greatest Hits record (her white flag?) and starts talking about how the band was so mean to her, she was always scared. Mick released a tell-all that really didn’t shed too much new information, and exaggerated some events. John releases a solo album that sounded close to a typical AOR Fleetwood Mac album. The Zoo releases a record that introduced Bekka Bramlett to Fleetwood Mac fans, but it was over-the-top metal-meets-Southern-rock. And almost nobody knew about any of this.

Lindsey Buckingham returns. Five years after quitting the band, the wonderboy returns with the critically acclaimed OOTC. He did a few videos, did the TV circuit, opened for Tina Turner, and sold about as many copies that the Mac would a few years later with their big “flop”. Everybody else was smelling like teen spirit. ALL RELEVANCY FOR FLEETWOOD MAC WAS GONE BY THIS POINT. But, it still got a little worse...

Bill Clinton: Uh oh, a Fleetwood Mac hit is now officially the theme song for the first baby boomer president. Great that it’s the same year as the box set (that 15 people bought), but now it’s forever going to be associated with a narcissism that can only be associated by baby boomer who ran for president. (Although, appropriate, considering how narcissistic most of the band comes off in interviews.) Hey, he got the band back together, but holy crap, Stevie Nicks looked like Mary Travers and the band sounded awful. A few weeks later, Mick, the McVies, Billy and Rick played the Super Bowl pre-game, and three people watched. Billy quit the band shortly thereafter and did a country album that five people bought.

But, be damned, Mick and the McVies decided to carry on. Time to reinvent the band. First off, bring in Bekka. She’s young, fresh, and doesn’t really sound like Stevie. And, let’s bring in Dave Mason while we’re at it. It’s not like he has anything going on right now. Hey, he worked with her parents. We’ll turn Fleetwood Mac into Delaney & Bonnie The Next Generation! Around this time, Stevie releases a record that got very little acclaim (even she hated it), though to be fair, was the best selling record of this period (1991-1996). Of course, you could add up all the solo sales and still come up significantly short of BTM. Her tour was not a success. Billy came back (hey, Delaney Bramlett was a good friend of his), and everybody but Christine went on the road opening for CSN. (Upcoming Stevie Nicks show announcement=awkward!)

The next year, they tour as part of an oldies package. The line was that they didn’t have the new record out, yet, and wanted to get some playing chops for when it was released. Apparently Mick’s only knowledge of D&B was the live album they did with Clapton, because who would’ve guessed Bekka and Billy wanted to do country? And, who would’ve guessed that Mason, who hadn’t released a record since 1987, wouldn’t have great songs? Christine was her usual, but Fleetwood Mac AS A WHOLE (the “Time” incarnation, Lindsey, and Stevie) were simply irrelevant. By the time it was released, Christine was out, Bekka and Billy had extracurricular plans to make a country album, Mason wasn’t really working out, and Lindsey was wanting to make a record with Mick. Gee, why’s THAT??? The image had taken a beating. The band failed AS A WHOLE to find ways to make their image and their sound relevant. Instead of reinventing themselves and take risks, they played it safe and followed the money. And, the members made the band a secondary priority.

The ONLY great thing about this period is the victorious return of Peter Green.

Without the support of Warner Bros. or Viacom, the Big Mac could’ve done an album, and the results would NOT have been much different than BTM or SYW. But both saw a way of making the Mac’s reunion another “Hell Freezes Over” to the point where the formula was exactly the same. {sarcasm} Yay! Fleetwood Mac officially starts taking cues from the Eagles. Color me excited. {/sarcasm} I mean, yeah, it’s good to see they’re all alive and well, and still have chops (John McVie alone is worth the concert ticket), but if it’s gonna be these five, please ONLY be these five. I don’t want a bunch of back up singers, an extra guitarist, an extra multi-instrumentalist, and an extra percussionist, I WANT FLEETWOOD MAC, and ONLY Fleetwood Mac. But, hey, it got them into the Hall of Fame.

After a couple of Stevie solo tours, the Mac came back, sans Christine, and released the WAYYY too overly ambitious SYW. There’s a pretty good record in there, but too much of it sounds like solo material. If the band learned nothing else from Peter Green, LESS IS MORE! And then to do a tour where, save for a handful of shows, the band plays the exact same set, same order and all, night after night, really tells me the band really just gave up. In a surprise move, Christine releases a new record, which sounds like a typical Christine record. Lindsey’s done a couple of albums since, and both he and Stevie have new ones coming.

And, other than an official sell-out tour, that’s where we leave Fleetwood Mac.

Hey, if a band isn’t even relevant to the members of the band, why should it be to anybody else?

[MacShadowsBall]

:thumbsup: SteveMacD, I nominate your post "Post of the Year"! :D

It made a lot of sense about whole "slow death". I think part of the problem was that there were too many "new" members, i.e. Billy, Rick, Dave, Bekka, and too many members leaving or wanting to leave, i.e. Lindsey, Christine, Rick, and Stevie.

Does anyone know why Rick left after the Behind the Mask tour? Was it his choice or was the choice made for him?

Personally if feel FM should have went to a more hard rock style instead of the country/rockabilly route they went. Not neccessarily hard, hard rock/heavy metal, but more a rock and roll band and less of a soft rock/pop/country band.

Lastly, Billy should have been more of the focus during the Time era. Was Dave Mason really even neccessary?

[SteveMacD]

Does anyone know why Rick left after the Behind the Mask tour? Was it his choice or was the choice made for him?
It was on his own. He's never really said why, as he's a very private person, but I suspect it had something to do with that Mick-Stevie feud. I mean, his record featured Stevie, was on Modern, and he toured with her a few years later. Water under the bridge, now.

Personally if feel FM should have went to a more hard rock style instead of the country/rockabilly route they went. Not neccessarily hard, hard rock/heavy metal, but more a rock and roll band and less of a soft rock/pop/country band.
Ironically, Billy Burnette was the one who gave the band it's hardest rocking song of that time (In The Back Of My Mind).

IMO, with alt.country gaining popularity with bands like Uncle Tupelo, I think Fleetwood Mac should've maybe found a way to use the talents of Bramlett and Burnette to go that direction. In some ways, I wish they would've continued after "Time" with Bekka and Billy. Chris was out by then. I would've parted ways with Mason, and brought in Mick Taylor, who helped the Stones create that sound that blended country, blues, and pop. (Plus, it would've given them an excuse to have Bekka and Billy do "Gimme Shelter", and you know that would've rocked.) I doubt it would've been all that commercially successful, but there would've been a market for it, and I think there would've been some critical acclaim for reinventing themselves.

Lastly, Billy should have been more of the focus during the Time era. Was Dave Mason really even neccessary?

Billy quit in 1993 to focus on his solo and acting careers. The band hired Dave Mason in the interim. Billy rejoined prior to the band hitting the road. He has stated that his limited role was mainly due to coming into the sessions late.

(There has been some dispute about Christine's involvement. All I know is that every interview the band did mentioned her still being in the band, and a few pictures that have surfaced showing Christine playing in a practice space with Mick, John, Bekka, and Dave prior to Billy coming back.)


NOTE: Two things I forgot to mention in my slow death of Fleetwood Mac's image were the two horrid videos put out around "Tango," namely "Red Rocks" and "Tango In The Night." Close-ups that were clearly not the same footage as the show? Lame.

[iamnotafraid]

:thumbsup: SteveMacD, I nominate your post "Post of the Year"!

SteveMacD I second this wholeheartedly.

I sense you like Billy and Rick better than I.

CSN = Crosby Stills and Nash (my only guess)?
If so, I didn't know they opened for them. It's
sad they would open for anyone.

[SteveMacD]

SteveMacD I second this wholeheartedly.

I sense you like Billy and Rick better than I.

CSN = Crosby Stills and Nash (my only guess)?
If so, I didn't know they opened for them. It's
sad they would open for anyone.

I do like Billy and Rick. I don't think they, or Bekka, were allowed the same creative freedoms that were afforded to Danny Kirwan, Christine McVie, Bob Welch, Stevie Nicks, and Lindsey Buckingham. Dave Mason isn't the most creative force, but he does have an established career, so he was allowed to maintain his individuality.

As for opening for CSN, that made total sense. They were not yet ready to be the headliner (same went for Lindsey a year earlier), but it was a good bill to build on the band's future. Dave is heavily associated with CSN, including their keyboardist Mike Finnigan, who was in the Dave Mason Band. Bekka's mom also had ties, singing with Stills and acting opposite of Crosby on "Roseanne". Friendly crowd. It's not sad. It's the reality of rebuilding a brand. (Now, the oldies tour was a huge mistake.)

[DavidMn]

I always find these discussions rather amusing. I have been a fan for 33 years now since the age of 6. I prefer the era of Stevie and Lindsey. That is my personal opinion. I dont care for Time at all, but again thats just personal taste. I think some of this is rooted in fans trying to one up each other by saying this or that era is better. WHO CARES!!!!! Just enjoy whichever style or era of the band you choose to and let it be at that.:)

[iamnotafraid]

I think some of this is rooted in fans trying to one up each other by saying this or that era is better. WHO CARES!!!!! Just enjoy whichever style or era of the band you choose to and let it be at that.:)

Dude this thread has nothing to do with one-upmanship.
It opened up a dialogue between adults who do like the
band, but are a little tired of the same old threads that
permeate the other forums. I like the back and forth this
thread has offered.

[holidayroad]

Great post, SteveMacD! The line I keep thinking about was that FM has only released 5 albums in 30 years (albums with all new material).
Of course, I love Fleetwood Mac. That's why I'm here. I am mostly a fan of the Rumours era, but I like material from every Fleetwood Mac era.
Still, the Rumours era band has been offered major opportunities. They have been given second (The Dance), third (Say You Will), and fourth chances (Unleashed tour) by industry execs to be the band they could still be.
If I were Fleetwood Mac, I would have ran with these opportunities. I would have put out more material because I would have worried that I may never get another chance. Why they seem to think that the music industry is going to be standing in line waiting for them to offer their material is beyond me and really a self centered attitude. Yes, if I were in the industry, I'd give them every chance in the world, but not everyone in the industry is a Fleetwood Mac fan!
According to what we've read lately, Stevie and Lindsey are both working on solo albums and working, at least in some aspect, together with Dave Stewart. I don't blame them for wanting to make solo albums. Shortly after that, they either need to get a Fleetwood Mac album together or announce they are never going to do another Fleetwood Mac album. If they don't, I think they are making a mistake that could cost Fleetwood Mac the majority of the fans it has left.

[DavidMn]

Dude this thread has nothing to do with one-upmanship.
It opened up a dialogue between adults who do like the
band, but are a little tired of the same old threads that
permeate the other forums. I like the back and forth this
thread has offered.Relax, I wasn't trying to go after you. Sorry if it appeared I was.:)

[HejiraNYC]

Warning, it's long, but worth it:


“Time” didn’t kill Fleetwood Mac. It was merely one more step in what has really been a slow, agonizing death that's been going on for 30 years now.



Thanks for your revisionist account of recent FM history. But what does it have to do with the "death of Fleetwood Mac?" From your summary, it sounds like they have all been busy working on band and solo projects and tours. Sure, there are ups and downs along the road, but that's life: ups and downs. And what was the point of yet again crowbarring in yet another reference to Robert Pollard? Just because he can record a couple of crappy albums quickly (that nobody will buy) does not mean he is some kind of a relevant, vital artist. Quality over quantity, I say. Sure, FM has cranked out only five studio albums in 30 years, but what about the 18 or so solo albums during that period from the Rumours lineup alone? There hasn't been a successful rock group in history that has survived that long without solo projects; what leads them astray is what also leads them back into the fold. I would rather have five group albums in 30 years vs. zero group albums in 30 years.

If all of this music is "agony," then I say bring on the pain; check your morphine drip at the door!

[HomerMcvie]

Relax, I wasn't trying to go after you. Sorry if it appeared I was.:)

I just think many of us fans, of the "other forums", get sick of all the people who only like the Rumours incarnation. I wish those people, would stick to those forums. Not saying you, David.



"FM sucks without Steve E. Nicks"...well, bite me!:nod:

INDUCT BOB WELCH!!!!:wavey:

[HejiraNYC]

If I were Fleetwood Mac, I would have ran with these opportunities. I would have put out more material because I would have worried that I may never get another chance. Why they seem to think that the music industry is going to be standing in line waiting for them to offer their material is beyond me and really a self centered attitude. Yes, if I were in the industry, I'd give them every chance in the world, but not everyone in the industry is a Fleetwood Mac fan!

Yet here we are waiting... anxiously... for them to record more new material. The reason the music industry will take whatever they can get is because the music industry is almost dead- it will take anything it can sell. And because old people have not caught onto illegal downloading like the youngsters, chances are that FM would actually sell legitimate, physical copies of their product, especially if given enhanced retailing strategies, e.g., exclusive WalMart distribution. Nobody has been less prolific than the Eagles, yet, 27 years after their last album, Long Road Out of Eden flew off WalMart shelves... and it was a horrendous album to boot!

[iamnotafraid]

FM would actually sell legitimate, physical copies of their product, especially if given enhanced retailing strategies, e.g., exclusive WalMart distribution. Nobody has been less prolific than the Eagles, yet, 27 years after their last album, Long Road Out of Eden flew off WalMart shelves... and it was a horrendous album to boot!

Unless WalMart just wasn't interested, I don't know why Fleetwood Mac
didn't go that route. I've had that Eagles album for a few years and still
have not been able to listen to it all the way through. At least I was able
to listen all the way through to TIME. Although I had drink mushroom
tea to get to the end.


DavidMn,
I didn't take that as an attack. You've never attacked me.
I just like the debate this Time and BTM thread has offered.
Both sides have made good points. Although I'm still right,
TIME STINKS and BEHIND THE MASK does too, just a little
less so.

[TerraRhiannon]

Although I'm still right,
TIME STINKS and BEHIND THE MASK does too, just a little
less so.

:thumbsup: Awesome, Don't apologize for that ! :p

[holidayroad]

Yet here we are waiting... anxiously... for them to record more new material. The reason the music industry will take whatever they can get is because the music industry is almost dead- it will take anything it can sell. And because old people have not caught onto illegal downloading like the youngsters, chances are that FM would actually sell legitimate, physical copies of their product, especially if given enhanced retailing strategies, e.g., exclusive WalMart distribution. Nobody has been less prolific than the Eagles, yet, 27 years after their last album, Long Road Out of Eden flew off WalMart shelves... and it was a horrendous album to boot!

Of course We're waiting anxiously, we're fans!:laugh: I meant record companies/execs may not always be waiting around for them. I just think there have been so many missed opportunities. I really don't know if a new album would sell well or not. Of course, I'll buy it, no matter what. I just wish Fleetwood Mac would get it together and record before record companies decide to no longer release music. I can see it coming to that.

[iamnotafraid]

I just wish Fleetwood Mac would get it together and record before record companies decide to no longer release music. I can see it coming to that.

It's really sad that that's what it's coming to.
This has been a strange year for releases.
Has anyone noticed how many box sets have
been released this year? It's like they're making
one last effort before the CD dies.

Elvis Complete Masters 30 CD's - 814 recordings -
240 page book @ $750.00 + shipping!!!!!!
And the first run of 1000 sets have already sold
out.

I wish Fleetwood Mac would put out a comparable
set. I have no idea how many songs they've put out
since the beginning, but it would be nice to have them
all in one place like the Elvis box set. Though at a
price much cheaper than $750.

[vivfox]

At the time it happened, I guess I felt they did what they had to do when they brought on Billy and Rick. Now, I think they should have brought in a 'background' guitar player and let Christine and Stevie front the band. (No offense to Billy Burnette, I really like his music!)


What an excellent idea! I never had thought of that. Think of the great albums we could have had. And the two ladies would be forced to sing more of their lesser known songs on stage.

[vivfox]

I just think there have been so many missed opportunities.


One of our members, states this in every one of her posts.:lol:

[ButterCookie]

What an excellent idea! I never had thought of that. Think of the great albums we could have had. And the two ladies would be forced to sing more of their lesser known songs on stage.

In Christine's case, forced is exactly the right word :/ I think she'd have hated that more than anything so I'm glad it didn't happen. We all know she hated touring and I think being thrust into the centre of the stage like that might have been the straw to break the Camels back earlier than it did.

[holidayroad]

In Christine's case, forced is exactly the right word :/ I think she'd have hated that more than anything so I'm glad it didn't happen. We all know she hated touring and I think being thrust into the centre of the stage like that might have been the straw to break the Camels back earlier than it did.

Stevie could have stayed more in the focal point on stage. Christine still could have stayed in the background. When they recorded would be when Christine would have had to step to the front.

[SteveMacD]

Thanks for your revisionist account of recent FM history.

Revisionist? How so?

But what does it have to do with the "death of Fleetwood Mac?" From your summary, it sounds like they have all been busy working on band and solo projects and tours. Sure, there are ups and downs along the road, but that's life: ups and downs.

Huh? That's pretty much exactly what they've done, and the band has taken a back seat.

And what was the point of yet again crowbarring in yet another reference to Robert Pollard?
The reason I bring up Robert Pollard is that I’m tired of listening to the endless rants on how Lindsey Buckingham is this great artistic genius/visionary. Really? How hard can it be to be a visionary when he’s only releases a grand total of FOUR studio albums of new material in 23 years, his second being his return to Fleetwood Mac some sixteen years earlier? For better or for worse (WAY better, IMO), Pollard releases FIVE albums in ONE year. This year, he released four albums, a 45, and an EP, did an art show for his collages, did a private solo concert for a capacity 225 people in Dayton, and did a small but successful reunion tour with Guided by Voices in which they were the headline act for Matador At 21 (which featured New Pornographers, Superchunk, Pavement, Belle & Sebastian, Yo La Tengo, and Liz Phair to name a few) (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/music_blog/2010/10/matador-at-21-night-3-guided-by-voices-yo-la-tengo.html). That’s just one year.

Just because he can record a couple of crappy albums quickly (that nobody will buy) does not mean he is some kind of a relevant, vital artist.

He’s indie rock. You’ll never see him pray to the hit gods. Warner’s offered big money for GbV, but he turned it down when they asked him to compromise his artistic vision. He’s making music on his terms. He’s doing everything Lindsey Buckingham pays lip service to doing. It’s called integrity.

Quality over quantity, I say.
Sadly, Fleetwood Mac really hasn't given us much of either.

[vivfox]

The reason I bring up Robert Pollard is that I’m tired of listening to the endless rants on how Lindsey Buckingham is this great artistic genius/visionary. Really? How hard can it be to be a visionary when he’s only releases a grand total of FOUR studio albums of new material in 23 years, his second being his return to Fleetwood Mac some sixteen years earlier? For better or for worse (WAY better, IMO), Pollard releases FIVE albums in ONE year. This year, he released four albums, a 45, and an EP, did an art show for his collages


I enjoy reading your posts when you show these stats. I have often wished FM and the Macsters solo projects could have such stats. I have often asked God why he gave me over to people who take FOREVER to record new material and then are too afraid to perform it.

[iamnotafraid]

It seems another review of Time had been posted.
And the Q review seemed to agree with this thread.

I'm listening to Hollywood as I write this.
I thought it might be a cure for my insomnia, but
no.