DISCUSSION: Jeremy's songs from Mr. Wonderful

[MacShadowsBall]

Here is the next discussion thread on Jeremy Spencer's songs from the Mr. Wonderful album.

Songs up for discussion...

1. I've Lost My Baby
2. Dust My Broom
3. Doctor Brown
4. Need Your Love Tonight
5. Evenin' Boogie
6. Coming Home

I got this listing from Amazon and Wikipedia. :eek: Let me know if it is wrong. :shrug:

Also I need to know if English Rose and Pious Bird of Good Omen should be counted as official albums for the "Battle of the Songs."

Thanks for your help, Ledgies.

[chiliD]

Here is the next discussion thread on Jeremy Spencer's songs from the Mr. Wonderful album.

Songs up for discussion...

1. I've Lost My Baby
2. Dust My Broom
3. Doctor Brown
4. Need Your Love Tonight
5. Evenin' Boogie
6. Coming Home

I got this listing from Amazon and Wikipedia. :eek: Let me know if it is wrong. :shrug:

Also I need to know if English Rose and Pious Bird of Good Omen should be counted as official albums for the "Battle of the Songs."

Thanks for your help, Ledgies.

Actually, I would include English Rose and not Mr Wonderful or Pious Bird...., but that's my own bias. To me, English Rose was a phenomenal album...it's what the US fans got as their second album, we knew nothing of Mr Wonderful or Pious Bird... until much later....similar to US Beatle fans got different albums than what were released in the UK. I loved Yesterday & Today wasn't until much later that we got the UK versions of Beatle albums.

My main criticism of the entire Mr. Wonderful album is the redundancy of the Elmore James sounding tunes ("Dust My Broom", "Coming Home", "Dr Brown")...one, two, ok...three? Gets tedious...HOWEVER, that said, taken on an individual basis, each PERFORMANCE of those Elmore sounding tunes is SPECTACULAR!

[Dr.Brown]

My main criticism of the entire Mr. Wonderful album is the redundancy of the Elmore James sounding tunes ("Dust My Broom", "Coming Home", "Dr Brown")...one, two, ok...three? Gets tedious...HOWEVER, that said, taken on an individual basis, each PERFORMANCE of those Elmore sounding tunes is SPECTACULAR!

I suppose my username gives away my bias here. I understand that having these tunes in one album may be a bit much for some ears but I'd much rather listen to such similar minimalist, yet spirited recordings than a bunch of overproduced songs that end up sounding the same and are also on one album.:sorry:

But at least we agree on the performances themselves. Here, Jeremy captured the persona of Elmore James and made it his own just as he would later do with those of Buddy Holly and Elvis Presley. He is a master of paying tribute to Elmore James while having fun and perfectly straddles the fence between said tribute and parody.

[doodyhead]

absolutely my favorite

[slipkid]

The Spencer songs overshadow the Green songs because (for some) it's completely redundant. All of Spencer's contributions are great, but it overshadows Green's songwriting vs. the first album. I'll wait for the Peter side of the discussion to comment.

[chiliD]

I suppose my username gives away my bias here. I understand that having these tunes in one album may be a bit much for some ears but I'd much rather listen to such similar minimalist, yet spirited recordings than a bunch of overproduced songs that end up sounding the same and are also on one album.:sorry:

But at least we agree on the performances themselves. Here, Jeremy captured the persona of Elmore James and made it his own just as he would later do with those of Buddy Holly and Elvis Presley. He is a master of paying tribute to Elmore James while having fun and perfectly straddles the fence between said tribute and parody.


But, see? That's the conundrum...if one were to change the album, WHICH track would you leave off? It's a no-brainer the answer is "none of them". Each song, despite their redundancy is really its own being, and really needs to be considered as such. And that's where Fleetwood Mac was at the time...their albums really weren't meant as a complete statement, but as a collection of individual songs. They wouldn't really start making ALBUMs as a collective statement until Then Play On but, the glaring omission on that one was the LACK of anything "Jeremy". Had the original idea (or what I've READ to have been the original idea) of "Then Play On" being a double album with what became Jeremy's first solo album being the 2nd disc of the 2 LP set, come to fruition, I think it would've been even MORE of a complete musical statement. (but that's for another thread at another time)

[Wouter Vuijk]

:angel:Well, all the "Dust My Broom" incarnations put aside (too obvious EJ clones), I had to choose between "I've Lost My Baby" and "Evening Boogie". So I chose for the heartful one (ILMB). Doesn't mean I dislike the cheerful "Evening Boogie", however.

[aleuzzi]

Love "Evening Boogie". "Dust My Broom" is probably the most "important" of the bunch for its authenticity, etc.

Whenever I listen to Mr. Wonderful, I skip over the Jeremy songs and go straight to the Peter ones, which I think are amazing. Can't wait to discuss those.

To my way of thinking, Jeremy's best work can be heard in abundance on the live BBC sessions (amazing slide on "Preacher's Blues"!) and on Kiln House, where every one of his songs is a treat.

[doodyhead]

[SIZE="2"]
Also I need to know if English Rose and Pious Bird of Good Omen should be counted as official albums for the "Battle of the Songs."

.

Just to echo chilD, english rose counts separately because of that stupid us/english record difference that existed back then. The first FM Album I bought back then was Then Play On which also has differences (i had one without "Oh Well"). When I backtracked to get the first two There was a double album release in the states that combined dog and dustbin and English rose. I had no idea Mr Wonderful even existed.

doodyhead

[Wouter Vuijk]

Just to echo chilD, english rose counts separately because of that stupid us/english record difference that existed back then. The first FM Album I bought back then was Then Play On which also has differences (i had one without "Oh Well"). When I backtracked to get the first two There was a double album release in the states that combined dog and dustbin and English rose. I had no idea Mr Wonderful even existed.

doodyhead

That's funny,
Over here in Holland there was a dubble album combining The Original Fleetwood Mac with English Rose :rolleyes:
The Dutch "Then Play On" also did not include Oh Well, but had two other tracks (One Sunny Day and Without You) that, as I believe, were not included on the USA and/or GB versions. :shrug:
Futhermore, I think you should include Pious Bird as well, since it contains a few tracks that were otherwise only released as singles (Need Your Love So Bad, Jigsaw Puzzle Blues, The Sun Is Shining), or not at all (The Big Boat).:thumbsup:

[chiliD]

The Dutch "Then Play On" also did not include Oh Well, but had two other tracks (One Sunny Day and Without You) that, as I believe, were not included on the USA and/or GB versions. :shrug:

Those two Danny Kirwan tracks were included on English Rose (along with Danny's "There's Something Inside Of Me"), so that's why they weren't on the original US Then Play On. I seem to recall "When You Say" & "My Dream" were on the original pressing of the US Then Play On, then were dropped when they included "Oh Well".

[MacShadowsBall]

This is really confusing! :confused: But I think the best thing to do is to combine English Rose and Pious Bird of Good Omen as one "super album", if you will. I would post a discussion thread each for Peter, Jeremy, and Danny's songs from the combined list.

So if somebody wants to work up a tracklisting for this "super album" and post it here or on a new thread, so that other Ledgies can check it out for approval. Just make sure you label each song as either Peter, Jeremy, or Danny. :wavey:

[dansven]

With all respect, why bother with the US releases?
Fleetwood Mac was a British band... the band members recorded songs for the albums they put out in the UK: Fleetwood Mac and Mr. Wonderful.
I bet they had no control over what was put out in the USA...

[doodyhead]

With all respect, why bother with the US releases?
Fleetwood Mac was a British band... the band members recorded songs for the albums they put out in the UK: Fleetwood Mac and Mr. Wonderful.
I bet they had no control over what was put out in the USA...

while the USA may no longer be a superpower, they did bother to release albums here. Their manager wanted them to make it here badly. I bet they had no control over what was put out in the UK either.
In the interest of fairness it would seem that if one were going to do an"Album by Album" trivia contest one would have to include the "erata" albums as well. I humbly propose they stand on their own as none of them were true Theme albums except for an album no one here has even mentioned: "Blues Jam in Chicago"

so for albums
Dog and Dustbin
Mr Wonderful
English Rose
Then Play On " I would concede that in that albums case one could put in all the songs in the combined listings of the US/UK/Euro versions
Blues Jam In Chicago

and we are not even going into
Jeremy Spencer or The Biggest Thing Since Colossus
PS
track listings for TPO without OH Well in US
Coming Your Way
Closing My Eyes
Fighting For Madge
When You Say
Show Biz Blues
Under Way
Although The Sun Is Shining
Rattlesnake Shake
Searching For Madge
My Dream
Like Crying
Before The Beginning

doodyhead, Mel and Vinnie

[chiliD]

With all respect, why bother with the US releases?
Fleetwood Mac was a British band... the band members recorded songs for the albums they put out in the UK: Fleetwood Mac and Mr. Wonderful.
I bet they had no control over what was put out in the USA...

Oh...I think I'll just go & do something else for a while and calm down before I end up posting something that'd get my ass kicked off this site. :mad:

[doodyhead]

Track listing for EnglishRose (from double album configuration)
Stop Messing Round
Jigsaw Puzzle Blues
Dr Brown
Something Inside Of Me
Evening Boogie
Love That Burns
Black Magic Woman
I'Ve Lost My Baby
One Sunny Day
Without You
Coming Home
Albatross

doodyhead

[doodyhead]

Oh...I think I'll just go & do something else for a while and calm down before I end up posting something that'd get my ass kicked off this site. :mad:

Inquiring minds want to know
I am sure my friends from across the pond could gain some insight.

May the Snoot be with you

LOL

[Ms Moose]

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Ms Moose:woohoo:

[MacShadowsBall]

Well nice to know that there is drama here on the Pre-Rumours forum!! :lol: Usually it's confined to the Stevie forum. :rolleyes:

When I began this FM "Battle of the Songs", I said only original full studio albums would count as albums through out the battle - no compilation albums, no Live albums, no greatest hits albums, no Grandma Ethel's favorite FM hits album :laugh: , BUT that "all officially released FM songs" will eventually be counted and considered in there on special category.

Take Peter's songs for example - all of Peter's songs from "other" album releases, would be put together in 1 category and so forth for each singer/songwriter. :cool:

Combining English Rose with Pious Bird of Good Omen is simply a compromise, since several songs overlap the original LPs.

So Ledgies, lets just keep up with those "other" songs for later categories. :)

[doodyhead]

Well nice to know that there is drama here on the Pre-Rumours forum!! :lol: Usually it's confined to the Stevie forum. :rolleyes:



Combining English Rose with Pious Bird of Good Omen is simply a compromise, since several songs overlap the original LPs.

So Ledgies, lets just keep up with those "other" songs for later categories. :)

even by your standards it don't make sense since "English Rose" Had songs not in the other two "Norman Conquest" releases. As such it was an official release with a different setlist.
Pious bird on has some of the same qualities and can be compared to some Beatles releases.

[slipkid]

even by your standards it don't make sense since "English Rose" Had songs not in the other two "Norman Conquest" releases. As such it was an official release with a different setlist.
Pious bird on has some of the same qualities and can be compared to some Beatles releases.

"English Rose" was the bastardized U.S. version of "Mr. Wonderful", complete with "Albatross", "Black Magic Woman", and several Danny Kirwan tracks that didn't see any official U.K. release until "The Original Fleetwood Mac" in '71. ("English Rose" is the album that changed Carlos Santana's financial future.). The only problem with "ER" is that it didn't include "Rollin' Man", and "Trying So Hard to Forget". Those songs were just as important as "Love That Burns" to the original "Mr. Wonderful".


As doodyhead states, this is like having "And Your Bird Can Sing" on a non-existent UK album "Yesterday and Today" (U.S. release), while it should be on the UK version of "Revolver". The same can be said of "Drive My Car" = "Rubber Soul" (UK). I think it's fair to go by the FM UK versions, since (as with the Beatles) the US fans have access to the original albums today.

If "Man of the World", and "The Green Manalishi" get their day in judgement, then it's ok.

[dansven]

Oh...I think I'll just go & do something else for a while and calm down before I end up posting something that'd get my ass kicked off this site. :mad:

That was the intention! :laugh:

Fleetwood Mac was a British band. "English Rose" is a compilation album similar to "Pious Bird".

Anyway, I am glad they chose "When You Say" instead of "Oh Well", as "When You Say" is the superior song.

[slipkid]

no Live albums

Why would one judge the Allman Brothers only on their studio albums, when they have one of the best live rock albums of all time, "Live at the Fillmore East"? Why would one judge The Who without "Live at Leeds"?

Why would someone want to forget that Fleetwood Mac was THE greatest live rock band on the planet during the late winter/early spring of 1970? The "Live in Boston vols. (1-3)" document an officially sactioned live recording. The problem is Peter Green left the band at the worst possible time, and the tapes were shelved because any future FM band incarnation would play inferior to those tapes. That's why they didn't see the light of day until 1985 on LP boots. By then the Buckingham/Nicks version of FM was breaking up.

[doodyhead]

Why would one judge the Allman Brothers only on their studio albums, when they have one of the best live rock albums of all time, "Live at the Fillmore East"? Why would one judge The Who without "Live at Leeds"?

Why would someone want to forget that Fleetwood Mac was THE greatest live rock band on the planet during the late winter/early spring of 1970? The "Live in Boston vols. (1-3)" document an officially sactioned live recording. The problem is Peter Green left the band at the worst possible time, and the tapes were shelved because any future FM band incarnation would play inferior to those tapes. That's why they didn't see the light of day until 1985 on LP boots. By then the Buckingham/Nicks version of FM was breaking up.

equally, fleetwood mac Blues Jam in Chicago features:
Like it this way
homework
talk with you
last night
watch out
sugar momma
when you squeeze me (i forgot the title)

none of those essential FM songs are on any studio album but most were in their live repitoire
and for the most part MR Wonderful is a live album in the studio

[chiliD]

That was the intention! :laugh:

Fleetwood Mac was a British band. "English Rose" is a compilation album similar to "Pious Bird".

Anyway, I am glad they chose "When You Say" instead of "Oh Well", as "When You Say" is the superior song.

You really ARE delusional, aren't you?

[chiliD]

"....and several Danny Kirwan tracks that didn't see any official U.K. release until "The Original Fleetwood Mac" in '71.

There were no Danny Kirwan tracks on that album originally. Those were just dumped onto the CD when they did the Complete Blue Horizon Sessions box set in the late 90's. (and, the box set's Pious Bird... disc isn't even CLOSE to the track listing of the original album)

English Rose is every bit legitimate an album as Meet The Beatles, Second Album, Something New, Beatles '65, Beatles VI, and Yesterday & Today.

It's what us Yanks heard FIRST, so that's what's in our souls. Don't give a flying f*** what was "intended" or any **** like that. It is what Fleetwood Mac's official second album was to the US audience....like it or not, that's a f***ing fact.

[dansven]

English Rose is every bit legitimate an album as Meet The Beatles, Second Album, Something New, Beatles '65, Beatles VI, and Yesterday & Today.
English Rose is every bit UNlegitimate an album as those Beatles LPs.

Don't give a flying f*** what was "intended" or any **** like that. It is what Fleetwood Mac's official second album was to the US audience....like it or not, that's a f***ing fact.
You're really disturbed, man. :shrug:

[doodyhead]

English Rose is every bit UNlegitimate an album as those Beatles LPs.



I , in the guise of a musician, will attempt to explain what happened in a record contract back then.

the artist(s) rarely had any input into the releases made by the record company that claimed to represent them. As such it was up to Mike Vernon and later Ciifford Davis ($%^$%$%^) who decided what was released and to whom.
In that spirit The band in question whether it be FM or the Beatles had no idea what was going to be put out in their name. Fleetwood Mac, the bar band, however knew exactly who they were and what they played in a show. You ask anyone who saw them back then and they were "the Live Act". not the record company's product.
as such Fleetwood Mac, Mr Wonderful. English Rose, Then Play On, Blues Jam in Chicago, and Pious Bird of Good Omen can stand on their own.

Kiln House is a different story. The Band Had control of the product[. I am witness to the band playing on that tour and can tell you that they played the songs in that album pretty much as it was recorded. The era of complete record company control over the band was over (or at least different)

doodyhead

[dansven]

the artist(s) rarely had any input into the releases made by the record company that claimed to represent them. As such it was up to Mike Vernon and later Ciifford Davis ($%^$%$%^) who decided what was released and to whom.
In that spirit The band in question whether it be FM or the Beatles had no idea what was going to be put out in their name. Fleetwood Mac, the bar band, however knew exactly who they were and what they played in a show. You ask anyone who saw them back then and they were "the Live Act". not the record company's product.
as such Fleetwood Mac, Mr Wonderful. English Rose, Then Play On, Blues Jam in Chicago, and Pious Bird of Good Omen can stand on their own.

Yes, yes, it's very well known that the record companies in those days to a high degree put out stuff without the artists having much to say.
But to say that the Beatles didn't have much to say about what songs were put on their UK releases ("Hard Day's Night", "Rubber Soul", "Revolver" etc...), I cannot agree with. On the other hand, just a quick glance at the tracklist of say "Yesterday And Today" reveals that it is a compilation of several albums and singles. And yes, the Beatles probably had nothing to say regarding the songs on this release.

The same goes with Fleetwood Mac. I mean, they recorded a bunch of songs in 1968, and put them out as "Mr. Wonderful". This is an album, and it was produced to sound like old Chess/blues recordings. "English Rose" was released much later, in 1969! It was put together by including some of the "old style" recordings of "Mr. Wonderful", plus the Albatross single and a few songs by the new member, Kirwan. A compilation! But it's nothing wrong with that, and I don’t mean to taunt this LP because I know ”English Rose” means a lot to many of you. I started my earlier post ”With all respect…” and I mean to offence no one!

But what chiliD said.....
Actually, I would include English Rose and not Mr Wonderful or Pious Bird....,
....is absolutely ridiculous.

Don't give a flying f*** what was "intended" or any **** like that. It is what Fleetwood Mac's official second album was to the US audience....like it or not, that's a f***ing fact.
This guy really need to start behaving like a grown up.
What's the problem?!?

[ButterCookie]

But what chiliD said.....

....is absolutely ridiculous.


This guy really need to start behaving like a grown up.
What's the problem?!?

I've kept my nose out of this one so far but I really do just want to say that I agree with Steve.

It is in no way any American fan's fault which way round the albums were released over there. So what if FM were a British band? Blondie were American but they reckon the English love them more, thus, it makes not one jot of difference where a band comes from if they have fans in another part of the word.

You're really disturbed, man. :shrug:

You're really rude, man.

I'd go as far as to say that Steve is the biggest and best Blues fan I've ever had the pleasure to know and his aggravation at your crass remarks is completely justified. If I was American and you'd insulted my country in that way, I'd be every bit as annoyed, too. I wouldn't give a flying pigs foot if flipping Pious Bird had been released before Dog & Dustbin over there. If that's the way they were released, that's the way they were released and until someone invents time travel you can not change that wether you like it or not.

And if When You Say is superior to Oh Well, I'm a green furry octopus.

[dansven]

It is in no way any American fan's fault which way round the albums were released over there. So what if FM were a British band? Blondie were American but they reckon the English love them more, thus, it makes not one jot of difference where a band comes from if they have fans in another part of the word.
...
If I was American and you'd insulted my country in that way, I'd be every bit as annoyed, too.
Hey ButterCookie calm down, will you?
I haven't said it was any American fan's fault!!! I haven't insulted the US!!! I just wanted to discuss this in a good way. I started of in a polite way, my main argument being that "English Rose" is a compilation. But come on, how can ANYBODY suggest to include "English Rose", and leave out "Mr. Wonderful" and "Pious..."?? That's what chiliD did. Absurd!!!:shocked:
What about the domestic Scandinavian releases? South America? Asia? Iran got their first Fleetwood Mac in the 90's! Let's include that one too!!!!!!!???

You're really rude, man.
I'm merely reacting to chiliD's swearing and rudeness. And by the way, that was in his reply to slipkid. ChiliD needs to check his manners!


And if When You Say is superior to Oh Well, I'm a green furry octopus. J-O-K-E, my dear Cookie.:woohoo:

[Ms Moose]

I agree with chiliD in his critisism of the redundancy of the Elmore James sounding tunes, but that also that "taken on an individuel basis each performance is spectacular..."I often forget this when I get irritated by a new "dah-dah-dah-dah-dah-dah-dah-dah-dah-dah-dah-dah-daaaaah-daaah"-intro.

I am choosing "I've Lost My Baby" for it's intensity - which I feel makes all the difference in Jeremy's different renditions of Elmore. Also I love the heavy duty bassrounds. Dr. Brown as a close contestant.

Thanks to you MacShadowsBall for the initiative.

NB! We don't want anymore asses kicked off this site ;)

Ms Moose

[doodyhead]

.."I often forget this when I get irritated by a new "dah-dah-dah-dah-dah-dah-dah-dah-dah-dah-dah-dah-daaaaah-daaah"-intro.

)

Ms Moose

Your illustration is great Ms Moose, but just to keep it accurate, isn't it :

dah-dah-dah-dah-dah-dah-dah-dah-dah-dah-dah-dah-daaaaah-doh ?

LOL

doodyhead

[THD]

Your illustration is great Ms Moose, but just to keep it accurate, isn't it :

dah-dah-dah-dah-dah-dah-dah-dah-dah-dah-dah-dah-daaaaah-doh ?

LOL

doodyhead

(note for those that havn't got a clue and cant be bothered to read the previous posts it's a phonetic representation of the Elmore James slide guitar phrase used by Jeremy on MR Wonderful


Actually I think it's:

DAH-dah-dah---DAH-dah-dah---DAH-dah-dah--DAH doo di DAH dah


(I stumbled upon this thread and decided to read all the way through

BLIMEY !

I didn't know things could get so heated on the PGFM era thread ............

In which case it ought perhaps to be:

Dit dit dit -DahDah Dah --Dit dit dit- Dit dit dit -DahDah Dah --Dit dit dit

[chriskisn]

BLIMEY !

I didn't know things could get so heated on the PGFM era thread ............



You have to realise though that this thread was from three years ago. So things may have once gotten heated in this forum but now we basically snooze for the most part and occasionally wake up when Jeremy or Dave Walker releases an album :lol: