Should Bob Brunning be regarded as a member of Fleetwood Mac?

[chriskisn]

Yes Bob Brunning was a member of Fleetwood Mac, I don't think that point can really be argued, but should he be really be considered as such?

For my part I think that he should, for without Bob Brunning there might not be a Fleetwood Mac, perhaps Peter having failing to convince McVie to join and having failed to recruit a bass player (remember that Bob was the only one who replied to the Melody Maker ad), might have decided to give the whole idea away and finish his butcher's apprenticeship...

[holidayroad]

I agree that he should be considered a member. If he had not joined, there may have been no Fleetwood Mac. So I should say 'Thanks Bob!!!":wavey:

[PenguinHead]

Bob can be considered the most brief member of Fleetwood Mac. Blink a minute, and you'll miss him. In comparison, Dave Walker could be considered a long-term member.

[ButterCookie]

Of course he should! Bekka gets regarded as a member doesn't she :rolleyes::p

[chiliD]

What is, IS. He WAS a member of Fleetwood Mac, fact, game over.

It's not like he's some "dwarf planet" whose definition can be changed by some panel of scientist geeks. (Sorry, Pluto, couldn't resist)

[MacShadowsBall]

Well from what I have understood, they wanted John - but he passed. They got Bob and then John said "Okay." So if Brunning was there first, John can't be considered an "original" member - as he is always referred to as along with Mic.


Of course some think of Stevie and Lindsey as "original" members!! :shrug:

[chiliD]

Well from what I have understood, they wanted John - but he passed. They got Bob and then John said "Okay." So if Brunning was there first, John can't be considered an "original" member - as he is always referred to as along with Mic.


Of course some think of Stevie and Lindsey as "original" members!! :shrug:

Although, recently, I've seen Mick referred to as "the only remainin original member" of Fleetwood Mac. John's been recategorized on that count. :thumbsup:

[aleuzzi]

The only answer is yes, but boy do I hate to admit it. His book on the band was one of the worst things I ever read--good lord all those errors of well-known facts! And his affiliation with a recent dvd documentary which has no band footage and no interviews with any member of the band, save him, was worse.

[Almost Simon]

Yes, he was and should be considered a member.

[TrueFaith77]

I voted "No." Otherwise, aren't there many musicians who should also be considered members? Do we have the names of all of the members of the 1979 USC band? For me, it's Mick & John and the singer/songwriters. Perhaps I am misunderstanding Bob's contribution to the band, but if he only played on a few recorded tracks, that's not enough to rate him above other musicians who did the same.


p.s. -- My dream of a Mac reunion album with ALL the past members would not necessitate a return of Bob Brunning, for example. ... In fact, I'd prefer the return the of USC marching band.

[chriskisn]

I voted "No." Otherwise, aren't there many musicians who should also be considered members? Do we have the names of all of the members of the 1979 USC band? For me, it's Mick & John and the singer/songwriters. Perhaps I am misunderstanding Bob's contribution to the band, but if he only played on a few recorded tracks, that's not enough to rate him above other musicians who did the same.


p.s. -- My dream of a Mac reunion album with ALL the past members would not necessitate a return of Bob Brunning, for example. ... In fact, I'd prefer the return the of USC marching band.

Surely though, he was actually hired as a member of the band (admittedly a temporary one) rather than as a session musician or a backing musician. It doesn't matter that he was only there for a few short months...

Otherwise, where do you draw the line? If a few months isn't enough, then does Dave Walker count? How many months/years are required for someone to be classified as a band member?

How many songs does someone have to contribute to? Would he be considered more important (and more of a band member) if he had been a vocalist rather than the bass player? :shrug:

[TrueFaith77]

Surely though, he was actually hired as a member of the band (admittedly a temporary one) rather than as a session musician or a backing musician. It doesn't matter that he was only there for a few short months...

Otherwise, where do you draw the line? If a few months isn't enough, then does Dave Walker count? How many months/years are required for someone to be classified as a band member?

How many songs does someone have to contribute to? Would he be considered more important (and more of a band member) if he had been a vocalist rather than the bass player? :shrug:


Well I defined MY line. But I agree that MINE should not be everyone's--and that someone should define exactly what constitutes a Mac member. On how many studio tracks did Bob play bass with no McVie?

[chiliD]

Well I defined MY line. But I agree that MINE should not be everyone's--and that someone should define exactly what constitutes a Mac member. On how many studio tracks did Bob play bass with no McVie?

What difference does it make how many studio tracks he played on? During his tenure, Fleetwood Mac was basically a LIVE band, not a RECORDING band. How many live Fleetwood Mac gigs did he play between August & November 1967 while McVie was still schlepping to gigs for John Mayall?? There's your benchmark.

[chriskisn]

Well I defined MY line. But I agree that MINE should not be everyone's--and that someone should define exactly what constitutes a Mac member. On how many studio tracks did Bob play bass with no McVie?

Well didn't he only officially play on one studio track - Long Grey Mare?

However, he may have played on others uncredited when McVie was too drunk - I seem to remember something about that from his book?

[sharksfan2000]

Well didn't he only officially play on one studio track - Long Grey Mare?

However, he may have played on others uncredited when McVie was too drunk - I seem to remember something about that from his book?
According to Mike Vernon's notes in the Complete Blue Horizons Sessions box set, Brunning also played bass on "I Believe My Time Ain't Long" and probably contributed backing vocals on "Rambling Pony". And as chiliD notes, he played a number of shows during his tenure in the band (the number varies depending on the source - according to Christopher Hjort's book, it may have been as few as 10 shows, while both Fleetwood's and Brunning's books imply it was considerably more).

But there's no denying that he was an original part of the band, and regardless of what you may think of Brunning's book or anything else about him, by definition he was a band member. And an anecdote from Fleetwood's book shows that's how other band members thought of him - he notes that Peter Green had Brunning step up to the mike to announce the first song they ever played at their debut gig at Windsor! You think Green would have had someone he didn't consider a fellow band member - even one he may have hoped would be replaced at some point - do that?

[wetcamelfood]

3 that are known of, LGM (as Chris said) & the 1st Rambling Pony (on backing vocals, no bass on track) & I Believe My Time Ain't Long and there may be more. Live stuff too as Chili says, (Windsor, Marquee) though it does seem McVie joined/Bruns left closer to Sept of '67 (I think the later live dates story was extrapolated from documents Bruns had in his books of upcoming gigs he would've played at w/FM through Dec if he was still there but the Savoy Brown single Bruns was on as a SB member dates from Sept '67 so he must've still had the list but not played on the later dates but regardless of length or # of recordings, he was announced to the press/public by the band as a member. Heck, there have been bands that have had members who NEVER recorded with the bands, just live stuff etc.

As for the USC band, I asked the USC who was in the USC band when they recorded Tusk for the discog and they wouldn't tell me (for legal reasons) but undoubtedly, the USC must've had some in the USC band with short tenures but I doubt their "membership" was taken away, JMHO though. :)

John

[wetcamelfood]

According to Mike Vernon's notes in the Complete Blue Horizons Sessions box set, Brunning also played bass on "I Believe My Time Ain't Long" and probably contributed backing vocals on "Rambling Pony". And as chiliD notes, he played a number of shows during his tenure in the band (the number varies depending on the source - according to Christopher Hjort's book, it may have been as few as 10 shows, while both Fleetwood's and Brunning's books imply it was considerably more).

But there's no denying that he was an original part of the band, and regardless of what you may think of Brunning's book or anything else about him, by definition he was a band member. And an anecdote from Fleetwood's book shows that's how other band members thought of him - he notes that Peter Green had Brunning step up to the mike to announce the first song they ever played at their debut gig at Windsor! You think Green would have had someone he didn't consider a fellow band member - even one he may have hoped would be replaced at some point - do that?

You beat me to it sharksfan! :)

John

[Wouter Vuijk]

Consider the following:

A group of friends like to play music together. They decide to start a band, give it a name (Bleedwould Cams), and for a couple of months (perhaps upto a full year) they rehearse, write songs (or maybe just one or two of them) and have fun together. They did not have a gig (yet). Then, for some obscure reason, one or two of them (let's assume two brothers) move to another city, approximately 200 miles (could be kilometers if they don't live in the States or Britain) away. The two remaining guys decide that the band does not exist without the two brothers and the band stops. Each member follows his own musical path from then.

Twenty years later a question arises: were they ever member of this band?
They did not play live,
They did not record.

Luckily I ran into a discussion on this Ledge about Bob Brunning and Fleetwood Mac.
Still haven't got an answer :laugh:

[chriskisn]

Consider the following:

A group of friends like to play music together. They decide to start a band, give it a name (Bleedwould Cams), and for a couple of months (perhaps upto a full year) they rehearse, write songs (or maybe just one or two of them) and have fun together. They did not have a gig (yet). Then, for some obscure reason, one or two of them (let's assume two brothers) move to another city, approximately 200 miles (could be kilometers if they don't live in the States or Britain) away. The two remaining guys decide that the band does not exist without the two brothers and the band stops. Each member follows his own musical path from then.

Twenty years later a question arises: were they ever member of this band?
They did not play live,
They did not record.

Luckily I ran into a discussion on this Ledge about Bob Brunning and Fleetwood Mac.
Still haven't got an answer :laugh:

Well to my opinion of course they were members of the band. They may sit back in later years and say (or if they become famous - in an interview) "when I was 21 I was in a band called Bleedwould Cams". Surely they wouldn't deny all knowledge?

[chriskisn]

though it does seem McVie joined/Bruns left closer to Sept of '67


In Mick's book however (taken with a grain of salt I know) he says (refering to the pre-McVie days):

"We spent the autum of 1967 doing our venues - the 100 Club and the Marquee Club in London, Sheffield University, Bradford College, the Nottingham Boat Club, Enfield Technical College and clubs all over Wolverhampton, North Wales, Manchester, Brighton, Grimbsy, Leicester. We played Cook's Ferry Inn and The Chelsea Cat. We honed our raw and vulgar blues music almost every night for three months until we were as tight as a drumhead."

"Then John McVie decided to join Fleetwood Mac, at least. It was December 1967, and we were playing the Ram Jam Club in Brixton when we got the call..."


I take two things away from this (assuming Mick's memory is correct).

There were a hell of a lot more gigs than just 10... (the ones he mentioned above were after the two sets they played at the Windsor Jazz and Blues Festival).

PLUS

If they spent the autumn of 1967 playing with Brunning that would be (equinoxes aside) covering the months of September, October and November.

I'll have to dig out Brunning's book to see what he says about the matter...

EDIT

Ok looking at Brunning's book he lists gig dates from August 13th 1967 (Windsor) though to December 10th (Turnstall). He lists over 20 gigs between 4th October and 10th December. :shrug:

[Author]

The gigs listed in Brunning's book are with Chicken Shack and not Fleetwood Mac, despite Bob's claim. John McVie was definitely with Fleetwood Mac by September 17, 1967 - perhaps even a few days earlier.

[chriskisn]

The gigs listed in Brunning's book are with Chicken Shack and not Fleetwood Mac, despite Bob's claim. John McVie was definitely with Fleetwood Mac by September 17, 1967 - perhaps even a few days earlier.

Ok so is there any documented evidence of this other than the fact that the Savoy Brown single that Brunning is on is apparently from September 1967?

Basically this means that the memories of two of the four men who were there are wrong? :shrug:

Oh and I assume you mean Savoy Brown not Chicken Shack?

EDIT:

Ok to make this whole issue more confusing - reading Martin Celmin's PG biography, he states that Brunning began rehearsals with the band in July 67 (which I think everyone tends to agree on?); McVie joined them three weeks after the Windsor Festival, and that on Sept 9 Melody Maker announced that bassist Paul Williams was joining Mayall to replace McVie who had joined FM.

So the only definite way to solve this is to find a copy of Melody Maker from Sept 9 and confirm this :shrug:

[wetcamelfood]

I agree with Author, really we can't go by Mick, he also says in that same book he played on the Bluesbreakers Curly/Rubber Duck single (which we know is wrong). Sorry Mick, John Tracy of Decca has a better rep than you for facts. :)

John

[wetcamelfood]

Meant to reierate, sorry to Bob, but just because he lists those dates to Dec, even if they were Mac dates, it doesn't mean he ended up playing them. Sort of like if this month at work your boss gives you an assignment to work on in October, you write it down put it in your poicket then you leave that job in Sept. You'll still have that piece of paper kicking around saying you were to do this in Oct but since you left in Sept, you ain't doin' it. :)

Also, we can't go by length of time, take Hungry Fighter which lasted all of one gig, does this mean neither Walker nor Kirwan were members of the group becuase it only lasted one gig (i.e. too short a time)?

As for the Bleedwould Cams senario, that can happen too, take Led Zep, though they did reform through the years as we know, they did say they couldn't continue in any realistic way after the loss of Bonzo.

Even if no recording of gigs, I think we should respect who they say are members. Just sayin'. :)

John

[sharksfan2000]

Ok so is there any documented evidence of this other than the fact that the Savoy Brown single that Brunning is on is apparently from September 1967?

Basically this means that the memories of two of the four men who were there are wrong? :shrug:

Oh and I assume you mean Savoy Brown not Chicken Shack?

EDIT:

Ok to make this whole issue more confusing - reading Martin Celmin's PG biography, he states that Brunning began rehearsals with the band in July 67 (which I think everyone tends to agree on?); McVie joined them three weeks after the Windsor Festival, and that on Sept 9 Melody Maker announced that bassist Paul Williams was joining Mayall to replace McVie who had joined FM.

So the only definite way to solve this is to find a copy of Melody Maker from Sept 9 and confirm this :shrug:
I think your edit info makes matters more than clear. As wetcamelfood notes, Mick Fleetwood's book has numerous errors and can't really be relied upon for things like how long Brunning was in the band. And Brunning has had a long history of puffing up his brief membership in Fleetwood Mac into something more significant than it was (it wasn't enough just being an original member?).

More detail from Christopher Hjort's "Strange Brew" book helps clear up the picture. He notes that John McVie formally quit the Bluesbreakers on 3 September, and that this was noted in Mayall's diary. McVie's departure and Paul William's joining the band was also noted in Mayall's September fan club newsletter. Hjort also notes that McVie had informed Mayall of his intention to quit earlier, so that Paul Williams actually had his debut with the Bluesbreakers on 4 September.

Hjort also notes Fleetwood Mac playing the Ram Jam club on 9 September and he says that could have been McVie's first gig with Fleetwood Mac (though Brunning may have played that gig). Hjort notes an advertisement for a gig in Nottingham on 24 September, which mentions Fleetwood Mac featured "Peter Green and John McVeigh - John Mayall's ex-guitarists".....well, they almost got that right :D Interestingly, the support band for the following night's gig was Boilerhouse - looks like that may have been the first time those two bands played on the same bill.

[wetcamelfood]

Further to what Chris said, the liner notes for the SB "Getting To The Point" CD which has "Taste & Try Before You Buy" and "Someday people" (the SB single Bruns played on as a member of SB & on that CD reissue as bonus tracks) John Tracy of Decca says in the liner notes that though he couldn't locate the recording date(s) for the session(s) that produced these 2 tracks he said the line up with Bruns had "rehearsed and toured togeher for 3 or 4 weeks prior to the release of the single which was released on Nov 24 of '67 so even if we only go back 3 weeks that takes us to Nov 3 he was definietly in SB and I highly doubt he got the SB job on Nov 2 and they raced in to record these tracks in between the rehearsal & tour dates they had been doing. Tracy also says in the liner notes for Crusade that McVie had left Mayall around the UK release date of the Bluesbreakers "Crusade" album which was McVie's last for Mayall as a member and he says that was Sep 1st. So again, even if we say "around" means after that date (and we'll stretch it and say he left Mayll Sep 30th) it couldn't have been much longer I mean if the rest of FM were so eager to get him in there, why would they then tell him to sit around for a few months doing nothing while we do these gigs with Bruns?

Again, not trying to cause disention in the ranks juist trying to chime in some historical dates we can work with in trying to figure this thing out is all. :)

John

[wetcamelfood]

I think your edit info makes matters more than clear. As wetcamelfood notes, Mick Fleetwood's book has numerous errors and can't really be relied upon for things like how long Brunning was in the band. And Brunning has had a long history of puffing up his brief membership in Fleetwood Mac into something more significant than it was (it wasn't enough just being an original member?).

More detail from Christopher Hjort's "Strange Brew" book helps clear up the picture. He notes that John McVie formally quit the Bluesbreakers on 3 September, and that this was noted in Mayall's diary. McVie's departure and Paul William's joining the band was also noted in Mayall's September fan club newsletter. Hjort also notes that McVie had informed Mayall of his intention to quit earlier, so that Paul Williams actually had his debut with the Bluesbreakers on 4 September.

Hjort also notes Fleetwood Mac playing the Ram Jam club on 9 September and he says that could have been McVie's first gig with Fleetwood Mac (though Brunning may have played that gig). Hjort notes an advertisement for a gig in Nottingham on 24 September, which mentions Fleetwood Mac featured "Peter Green and John McVeigh - John Mayall's ex-guitarists".....well, they almost got that right :D Interestingly, the support band for the following night's gig was Boilerhouse - looks like that may have been the first time those two bands played on the same bill.

Great stuff sharksfan, meant to check Hjort's book, you beat me to it again! :)

John

[chriskisn]

I was trying to find a copy of Melody Maker from Sept 9 1967, but at the moment there are only copies from Sept 2 and 23rd available on Ebay...

It is a pity that Brunning's email no longer works or we could ask him (although John (wetcamelfood not McVie) might have some comment on that - :lol:)

[wetcamelfood]

I was trying to find a copy of Melody Maker from Sept 9 1967, but at the moment there are only copies from Sept 2 and 23rd available on Ebay...

It is a pity that Brunning's email no longer works or we could ask him (although John (wetcamelfood not McVie) might have some comment on that - :lol:)

Yup, e mailing him doesn't work (in more ways than one) unfortunately. :)

John

[Author]

The question is: Would Peter G name his new band Fleetwood Brunning? Hardly. Green had his sights firmly set on his favorite rhythm section, Messrs. Mick F and John M when he quit John Mayall in the early summer of 1967. When McVie got (temporarily) cold feet and remained with Mayall, Green simply wanted someone who could deputize. Brunning joined in mid-July 67 at the the earliest and he was out six-to-eight weeks later in September 67. I guess Green chose an unknown player (instead of, say, Dave Ambrose or Ric Grech who both tried out) to underline the fact that this was a temporary situation. Hence there was no hurtful Pete-Best-sacking when Brunning graciously bowed out. I'd even argue and say McVie was a founding member given the fact that he, Green, and Fleetwood recording the first acknowledged F Mac tracks in late spring 67. As for the dates in the gig sheet reproduced in Brunning's "Blues: The British Connection" (p 116) these were all Savoy Brown gigs (oops, not C Shack as I hurriedly wrote above), whatever his claim to the contrary.

[wetcamelfood]

The question is: Would Peter G name his new band Fleetwood Brunning? Hardly. Green had his sights firmly set on his favorite rhythm section, Messrs. Mick F and John M when he quit John Mayall in the early summer of 1967. When McVie got (temporarily) cold feet and remained with Mayall, Green simply wanted someone who could deputize. Brunning joined in mid-July 67 at the the earliest and he was out six-to-eight weeks later in September 67. I guess Green chose an unknown player (instead of, say, Dave Ambrose or Ric Grech who both tried out) to underline the fact that this was a temporary situation. Hence there was no hurtful Pete-Best-sacking when Brunning graciously bowed out. I'd even argue and say McVie was a founding member given the fact that he, Green, and Fleetwood recording the first acknowledged F Mac tracks in late spring 67. As for the dates in the gig sheet reproduced in Brunning's "Blues: The British Connection" (p 116) these were all Savoy Brown gigs (oops, not C Shack as I hurriedly wrote above), whatever his claim to the contrary.

The Stones also wanted Ian Stewart to be a member of their band too but as we know sometimes in life things don't end up the way people want them to. So again, not for a "certainty".

Also there's bound to have been other bands formed over the years that were named after people they were never in (or at least not long out of after their formation but they carried on anyways). This calls for a ChiliD list. :)

I see what you're saying and fair enough I respect your point of view though. :)

John

[chriskisn]

Personally though I need a couple of questions answered, what would have happened if McVie had not left Mayall? Would McVie have only come in when the band was famous, and would Brunning have been so gracious if the band were famous by the time McVie wanted in? Would the rest of the band even want McVie say 12 months later when they had become a close knit group?

Apparently the only two ways that McVie would have left Mayall were:

Mayall turning away from pure blues (which of course was the real reason)

OR

Fleetwood Mac being stable and profitable enough for McVie to leave the security of Mayall...

So the reason that Bob Brunning is still not in Fleetwood Mac is because John Mayall likes to experiment! :shrug:

[doodyhead]

He absolutely is a member

think of this another way.

Derek and the Dominoes never appeared with Duane Allman. Yet who would dispute that he was a member?

At least Bob not only played songs in the studio with the band He appeared at their debut performance as their bass player as well as other venues before getting the sack. That says it all.

doodyhead

[aleuzzi]

The question is: Would Peter G name his new band Fleetwood Brunning? Hardly.

hehehehehe

[sjpdg]

Brunning should be considered an original member, but a horrible writter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[dino]

Original member, sure. Peter picked him. He didn't pick Buckingham, Nicks, Welch...

[doodyhead]

The band was listed on it's debut as:
Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac with Jeremy Spencer

It was not listed as:

Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac with Jeremy Spencer and special temprary fill-in Bob ...uh Brunning

No one on the planet except their mothers , knew who Mick Fleetwood and John McVie were, let alone the play on words.

doodyhead

[jaycee]

Before I answer this question, let's consider what The Moody Blues think of the first three years of the band by checking their line-ups (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_The_Moody_Blues_band_members) and discography:
1. The Magnificent Moodies (pre-psychedelic era line-up)
2. Days Of Future Passed (start of psychedelic era line-up)
3. In Search Of The Lost Chord
4. On The Threshold Of A Dream
5. To Our Children's Children's Children
6. A Question Of Balance
7. Every Good Boy Deserves Favour
8. Seventh Sojourn
(Brief band split, 1974-77.)
9. Octave (end of psychedelic era line-up)
Also, check their history on their site - http://www.moodyblues.co.uk/index_main.html. You'll find no mention of anything done before Days Of Future Passed.
So, back to the question - should Bob Brunning be considered a band member? Well, unless The Moody Blues suddenly care to mention their founding band members and first album in their history on their official site, I'm voting no.

[chiliD]

Before I answer this question, let's consider what The Moody Blues think of the first three years of the band by checking their line-ups (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_The_Moody_Blues_band_members) and discography:
1. The Magnificent Moodies (pre-psychedelic era line-up)
2. Days Of Future Passed (start of psychedelic era line-up)
3. In Search Of The Lost Chord
4. On The Threshold Of A Dream
5. To Our Children's Children's Children
6. A Question Of Balance
7. Every Good Boy Deserves Favour
8. Seventh Sojourn
(Brief band split, 1974-77.)
9. Octave (end of psychedelic era line-up)
Also, check their history on their site - http://www.moodyblues.co.uk/index_main.html. You'll find no mention of anything done before Days Of Future Passed.
So, back to the question - should Bob Brunning be considered a band member? Well, unless The Moody Blues suddenly care to mention their founding band members and first album in their history on their official site, I'm voting no.

Don't see where the Moody Blues' choice to pull a Stalin-esque view of their own history has anything to do with Fleetwood Mac & Bob Brunning being a member of Fleetwood Mac? Seems like a non-sequitur of the grandest proportions.

Pretty close to: "I don't like pumpkin pie, so Bob Brunning was never a member of Fleetwood Mac".

[sharksfan2000]

Don't see where the Moody Blues' choice to pull a Stalin-esque view of their own history has anything to do with Fleetwood Mac & Bob Brunning being a member of Fleetwood Mac? Seems like a non-sequitur of the grandest proportions.
I agree, chiliD. I can see some reasonable arguments for why Brunning should not be considered a member (though I certainly consider him to be one), but that is not one of them. The Moody Blues first album never existed? - what a joke.

[aleuzzi]

By the way, if we consider Bob Brunning a former member (which he is, whether we want to admit it or not) we should also note that Doug Graves was one, too--and, to a slightly lesser extent, Nigel Watson. They played gigs with the group in a legitimate way. Graves was even introduced on the Don Kirshner (sp?) special as the newest addition.

[chriskisn]

By the way, if we consider Bob Brunning a former member (which he is, whether we want to admit it or not) we should also note that Doug Graves was one, too--and, to a slightly lesser extent, Nigel Watson. They played gigs with the group in a legitimate way. Graves was even introduced on the Don Kirshner (sp?) special as the newest addition.

See there is a difference though between backing musicians and band members. While Doug Graves was introduced as the new member was that the intention of the band or was it a mistake on the part of the Don Kirshner show? Perhaps he was the missing 17th member...

Brunning was hired as a band member, perhaps temporarily, perhaps not. Nigel Watson, as I understand it, wasn't even hired, he tagged along with PG. No different to Sharon Celani and Lori Nicks.

It is a debate that we are never going to end without input from either Peter Green or Mick Fleetwood. The fact that Mick considers himself the ONLY founding member, indicates that McVie wasn't a founding member, and thus, Brunning was.

It really does all come down to the intention of the rest of the band and management when hiring. People like Nigel Watson, Doug Graves, Sharon Celani, Brett Tuggle, and what was that guys name Michael Thompson (the guy off Time whatever his name was I'm too lazy to go and look at the CD), were never intended to be part of the band.

I wonder whether PG said to Brunning "When John McVie joins, you are out of the band" OR "If John McVie joins, you are out of the band". We shall never know...

[Wouter Vuijk]

I wonder whether PG said to Brunning "When John McVie joins, you are out of the band" OR "If John McVie joins, you are out of the band". We shall never know...
Now here's the answer: in both ways (If/When): ".... you are out of the band" means you are in the band now at this moment. :thumbsup:

[chriskisn]

Now here's the answer: in both ways (If/When): ".... you are out of the band" means you are in the band now at this moment. :thumbsup:

This is very true! :)

I wonder whether PG always knew that McVie would come around in the end though?

[chriskisn]

Oh and I can think of one over-riding reason why Brunning should be considered a member of Fleetwood Mac (other than the fact he WAS a member)...

Without his membership I would have never bothered listening to Brunning Sunflower or De Luxe Blues Band and my life would be a little poorer because of it... :nod:

[LukeA]

Before I answer this question, let's consider what The Moody Blues think of the first three years of the band by checking their line-ups

Are you saying the Moody Blues' have disowned "Go Now", which is only their best song? If so, F' them.

(now, excuse me while I go illegally download the vaunted masterpiece that is"Your Wildest Dreams")

[jaycee]

Are you saying the Moody Blues' have disowned "Go Now", which is only their best song? If so, F' them.

(now, excuse me while I go illegally download the vaunted masterpiece that is"Your Wildest Dreams")

Well, they seemed to acknowledge "Go Now" for a while (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Best_of_the_Moody_Blues, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthology_%28The_Moody_Blues_album%29), but not anymore.
My point was that the current members of this band have willingly ignored/forgotten almost three (most enjoyable) years of its history, including an entire album, because they now consider the music produced in that time irrelevant, for no better reason than their musical style and line-up changed radically for several albums after. Going by their ideas, I wouldn't consider Bob Brunning a member of FM.
Now, I don't actually agree with The Moody Blues at all on this matter. As for whether Bob Brunning should be regarded as a member of FM... well, it's a lot like asking if a tomato should be regarded as a fruit - it's not up to us to decide how reality is! :laugh: Bob Brunning was a member. That's all there is to it. Why bother to ask if he should be regarded as such? A more pertinent question would be about whether he made any meaningful contributions to FM during his time as a member, or shaped the band's future significantly.

[sjpdg]

Brunning was hired as a band member, perhaps temporarily, perhaps not. Nigel Watson, as I understand it, wasn't even hired, he tagged along with PG. No different to Sharon Celani and Lori Nicks.

It is a debate that we are never going to end without input from either Peter Green or Mick Fleetwood. The fact that Mick considers himself the ONLY founding member, indicates that McVie wasn't a founding member, and thus, Brunning was.

I wonder whether PG said to Brunning "When John McVie joins, you are out of the band" OR "If John McVie joins, you are out of the band". We shall never know...

I love your remark about Celani and Lori Nicks!! Much like Brunning ever since leaving the band, they are "hangers on" in my opinion. (And I'll likely be crucified in writing for saying so by the Welsh Witch devotees!!!!) But honestly, back-up singers can be replaced and no one will really care. Good bass players are hard to find.

Was Brunning a member of FM? Of course! Wasn't the original bass player, but he was in the band, no doubt, at least in my opinion.

[Wouter Vuijk]

Was Brunning a member of FM? Of course! Wasn't the original bass player, but he was in the band, no doubt, at least in my opinion.

Eeehmmm... If BB wasn't the original bass player in the band, who played the bass in FM before he did?

BTW What do you think of me? :laugh:

[chiliD]

By the way, if we consider Bob Brunning a former member (which he is, whether we want to admit it or not) we should also note that Doug Graves was one, too--and, to a slightly lesser extent, Nigel Watson. They played gigs with the group in a legitimate way. Graves was even introduced on the Don Kirshner (sp?) special as the newest addition.

See there is a difference though between backing musicians and band members. While Doug Graves was introduced as the new member was that the intention of the band or was it a mistake on the part of the Don Kirshner show? Perhaps he was the missing 17th member...

Brunning was hired as a band member, perhaps temporarily, perhaps not. Nigel Watson, as I understand it, wasn't even hired, he tagged along with PG. No different to Sharon Celani and Lori Nicks.

It is a debate that we are never going to end without input from either Peter Green or Mick Fleetwood. The fact that Mick considers himself the ONLY founding member, indicates that McVie wasn't a founding member, and thus, Brunning was.

It really does all come down to the intention of the rest of the band and management when hiring. People like Nigel Watson, Doug Graves, Sharon Celani, Brett Tuggle, and what was that guys name Michael Thompson (the guy off Time whatever his name was I'm too lazy to go and look at the CD), were never intended to be part of the band.

I wonder whether PG said to Brunning "When John McVie joins, you are out of the band" OR "If John McVie joins, you are out of the band". We shall never know...

Let's not forget Bob Welch's pal, Bobby Hunt...he finished off the tour that Doug Graves started...just "helping fill out the sound"...which reminds me...THAT is the exact line that was used by Mick in his book about Christine joining for the Kiln House tour. So when exactly did Christine crossover from "helping fill out the sound" to becoming a member? When they started the sessions for Future Games or sometime DURING the Kiln House tour?

Yes...Michael Thompson...he's a well-known "first call" SESSION MUSICIAN...so there wouldn't be any intent of his being a "band member"

[wetcamelfood]

So when exactly did Christine crossover from "helping fill out the sound" to becoming a member? When they started the sessions for Future Games or sometime DURING the Kiln House tour?

Concert wise, I'm not sure, but recording wise, I understood the Dragonfly/Purple Dancer single (released between KH & FG) were the first FM recordings where CM was actually a "member" and not a "guest". :)

John

[SteveMacD]

Let's not forget Bob Welch's pal, Bobby Hunt...he finished off the tour that Doug Graves started...just "helping fill out the sound"...which reminds me...THAT is the exact line that was used by Mick in his book about Christine joining for the Kiln House tour. So when exactly did Christine crossover from "helping fill out the sound" to becoming a member? When they started the sessions for Future Games or sometime DURING the Kiln House tour?
A while back, I pondered that exact question. Christine may never have actually formally joined Fleetwood Mac. I suspect her status evolved, which I think is pretty cool.

Concert wise, I'm not sure, but recording wise, I understood the Dragonfly/Purple Dancer single (released between KH & FG) were the first FM recordings where CM was actually a "member" and not a "guest". :)
I wonder about that, too. I have the 45, but not a picture sleeve, so I really can't comment. And, when did the 45 actually come out? Was Jeremy still in the band at that point?

[chriskisn]

I love your remark about Celani and Lori Nicks!! Much like Brunning ever since leaving the band, they are "hangers on" in my opinion. (And I'll likely be crucified in writing for saying so by the Welsh Witch devotees!!!!) But honestly, back-up singers can be replaced and no one will really care. Good bass players are hard to find.

Was Brunning a member of FM? Of course! Wasn't the original bass player, but he was in the band, no doubt, at least in my opinion.

Well ok if you want to get picky then McVie was the first bass player, left the band, Brunning was the next guy and then McVie came back.

However I would suggest that including Fleetwood Mac the instrumental (and whatever the other song was called) as being by Fleetwood Mac the band would be stretching it just a little.

Actually that scenario would give more weight to Brunning being a member as he would have replaced John McVie who had LEFT!!!

[SteveMacD]

Well ok if you want to get picky then McVie was the first bass player, left the band, Brunning was the next guy and then McVie came back.

However I would suggest that including Fleetwood Mac the instrumental (and whatever the other song was called) as being by Fleetwood Mac the band would be stretching it just a little.

Actually that scenario would give more weight to Brunning being a member as he would have replaced John McVie who had LEFT!!!
That argument doesn't really washed for me. Those sessions certain laid the foundation for Fleetwood Mac, and could have legitimately been placed on Fleetwood Mac albums. However, those songs were recorded by the Bluesbreakers, not Fleetwood Mac. Fleetwood Mac, as an entity, did not exist at that point in time.

Brunning was the original bassist, and in the band with the understanding that if/when McVie wanted in, he was out.

What lends credibility to the question of him being an actual member of Fleetwood Mac is the Kiln House tour after Jeremy left. Peter Green was brought back, though it's generally not considered an official incarnation of the band, as it was understood that he was out at the end of the tour.

[wetcamelfood]

I wonder about that, too. I have the 45, but not a picture sleeve, so I really can't comment. And, when did the 45 actually come out? Was Jeremy still in the band at that point?

I don't have the 45 but as near as I can figure out it was released in 3/71 but recorded late in '70,

Jeremy was definitely still there since we can hear him sing some lead vocals lines in PD so it couldn't have been recorded any later than 2/71 since that's when JS left and I doubt they went to do the gig in LA he disappeared before the day after etc. so...

John

[chiliD]

However, those songs were recorded by the Bluesbreakers, not Fleetwood Mac. Fleetwood Mac, as an entity, did not exist at that point in time.

In a very loose comparison, it's the same as a few of those early Savoy Brown albums...even though everybody except Kim Simmonds bailed to form Foghat, it still was Savoy Brown that recorded the albums, not Foghat. :p

(ok, who had milk spew out their nose while reading the word "Foghat"??) ;)

[aleuzzi]

So when exactly did Christine crossover from "helping fill out the sound" to becoming a member? When they started the sessions for Future Games or sometime DURING the Kiln House tour?


Based on the Madison Blues cd (which includes live material from the Kiln House tour) it was clear that Christine's presence in the band was pretty much up front right from the beginning. She sang lead on a number of songs, chatted with the audience between numbers, often provided count-offs and directions for the rest of the band (chaps, she calls them).

So, whether FM initially wanted her to "fill out the sound" it almost immediately blossomed into full participation. (The band did some live-in-studio cuts before the tour with Christine singing lead on two of them.) Some writers have even suggested her involvement would have been more prominent on Kiln House itself if it weren't for existing contract with Mike Vernon/Blue Horizon.

[aleuzzi]

Concert wise, I'm not sure, but recording wise, I understood the Dragonfly/Purple Dancer single (released between KH & FG) were the first FM recordings where CM was actually a "member" and not a "guest". :)

John

She began touring with them as a front-line member (as opposed to merely filling out the sound) on the Kiln House tour. This decision appears to have come about when the band were rehearsing right before the tour. Initially, she was asked to fill out the sound but right away she was singing lead and helping to front the band. Check out the Madison Blues cd. She was indeed present on the recording of Dragonfly.

[wetcamelfood]

She began touring with them as a front-line member (as opposed to merely filling out the sound) on the Kiln House tour. This decision appears to have come about when the band were rehearsing right before the tour. Initially, she was asked to fill out the sound but right away she was singing lead and helping to front the band. Check out the Madison Blues cd. She was indeed present on the recording of Dragonfly.

Oh I agree with this, I was just answering when talking abount the D/PD single.

Now that you mention the BH contract, that is coming back, they wanted to make her a FM member but they needed to termiante her solo BH contract before doing that & I think the legal matters were resolved in Aug of '70 so this would be my guess.

John

[SteveMacD]

Actually, I just reread that part of the book, and Mick states that she was asked to join the band prior to the tour. My new hunch is that the whole language of being a "guest on the tour to help fill out the sound" language came from Cliff Davis, since Christine was probably still under contract with Blue Horizon.

[wetcamelfood]

Actually, I just reread that part of the book, and Mick states that she was asked to join the band prior to the tour. My new hunch is that the whole language of being a "guest on the tour to help fill out the sound" language came from Cliff Davis, since Christine was probably still under contract with Blue Horizon.

Yeah that would jive with the hold up on the contract etc.

John

[Author]

Interesting this, when is a member of a group A Member (With Capital M) or not. Is it regulated by contracts, administrative paperwork and mundane juridical technicalities, like when most of us are hired as employees to perform our daily duties? Or is it a fuzzy photo of a group on stage of likeminded friends where some are destined for success while others fall by the wayside? Isn't it something Bigger, when musical magic is created in the Greatest of Groups where the whole is bigger than the sum of its parts? Wasn't that what happened once John McVie transferred from Mayall to Mac?

As an aside, there is a parallel to the Brunning-McVie case in Peter Green's ever-so-brief stint with John Mayall when Eric Clapton was in Greece at the end of 1965. Peter played with Mayall for a few nights before Clapton reappeared and Mayall duly told Green that, well, his services were not required anymore. Was Green a member of The Bluesbreakers for those few nights? Hmmm.

Duane Allman a member of Derek & The Dominoes? Of course not. Just like George Martin was never a member of The Beatles, although no-one will deny either Allman's or Martin's profound importance on record with Derek & The Fab Four.

[Hawkeye]

I believe I am the one who sparked this whole poll. But I only questioned his membership because I wasn't if it was Mick and the band who gave him this credit of being a member or if it was started by us fans to come up with this magic 16 members of Fleetwood Mac thing. This thread has cleared it up for me and I can clearly see he deserves his membership card (Fleetwood Mac membership cards aren't as easy to aquire as casino players club cards)

I am shocked to learn hes playign on Long Grey Mare one of my favorite Fleetwood Mac songs.

[chriskisn]

I believe I am the one who sparked this whole poll. But I only questioned his membership because I wasn't if it was Mick and the band who gave him this credit of being a member or if it was started by us fans to come up with this magic 16 members of Fleetwood Mac thing. This thread has cleared it up for me and I can clearly see he deserves his membership card (Fleetwood Mac membership cards aren't as easy to aquire as casino players club cards)

I am shocked to learn hes playign on Long Grey Mare one of my favorite Fleetwood Mac songs.

Well there you go if we have changed the opinion of one Mac fan then its a good day for Bob Brunning :lol:

[chiliD]

Duane Allman a member of Derek & The Dominoes? Of course not. .

One COULD make the case that Duane WAS definitely a member of Derek & The Dominos (while they were in the studio), but when the conflict of upcoming touring schedules surfaced, Duane chose to stay with his brothers (counting Dickey Betts, Berry Oakley, Jaimoe & Butch Trucks as family)....Duane DID appear at the two D&tD shows that didn't coincide with the ABB tour schedule.

[aleuzzi]

Actually, I just reread that part of the book, and Mick states that she was asked to join the band prior to the tour. My new hunch is that the whole language of being a "guest on the tour to help fill out the sound" language came from Cliff Davis, since Christine was probably still under contract with Blue Horizon.

makes sense.

[slipkid]

Interesting this, when is a member of a group A Member (With Capital M) or not. Is it regulated by contracts, administrative paperwork and mundane juridical technicalities, like when most of us are hired as employees to perform our daily duties? Or is it a fuzzy photo of a group on stage of likeminded friends where some are destined for success while others fall by the wayside? Isn't it something Bigger, when musical magic is created in the Greatest of Groups where the whole is bigger than the sum of its parts? Wasn't that what happened once John McVie transferred from Mayall to Mac?

As an aside, there is a parallel to the Brunning-McVie case in Peter Green's ever-so-brief stint with John Mayall when Eric Clapton was in Greece at the end of 1965. Peter played with Mayall for a few nights before Clapton reappeared and Mayall duly told Green that, well, his services were not required anymore. Was Green a member of The Bluesbreakers for those few nights? Hmmm.

Duane Allman a member of Derek & The Dominoes? Of course not. Just like George Martin was never a member of The Beatles, although no-one will deny either Allman's or Martin's profound importance on record with Derek & The Fab Four.


Peter Green was never a "member" of the (Bob) "Brunning Sunflower Blues Band". Yet he "helped" with his "input" in 1969. Bob Brunning's band did NOT sell many albums.


It's different when your input is recorded for eternity, and you're famous, as well as the band you are contributing. Duane Allman was a guest member of Derek and the Dominoes. Duane recorded with, and for most of the 1970 "Layla" album. Eric Clapton recorded one song with the Beatles ("While My Guitar Gently Weeps").

Unlike "The Beatles" (White Album, with EC), "Layla" would not have been the same great album it became without Duane Allman. The Beatles would've had a #1 album without the famous EC solo/Harrison tune.

[Wouter Vuijk]

Mr. Fleetwood - drums, bandleader
Bob Welch - vocals, guitar
Bob Weston - guitar
Bob Brunning - bass
Bob Hunt - keyboards

Name of the band? Fleetwood Bob.

:thumbsup: :lol:

[mzero]

Mr. Fleetwood - drums, bandleader
Bob Welch - vocals, guitar
Bob Weston - guitar
Bob Brunning - bass
Bob Hunt - keyboards

Name of the band? Fleetwood Bob.

:thumbsup: :lol:

haha! wouter! or fleetwood bobs or bob welch's fleetwood bobs featuring bob weston

zero

[Almost Simon]

One COULD make the case that Duane WAS definitely a member of Derek & The Dominos (while they were in the studio), but when the conflict of upcoming touring schedules surfaced, Duane chose to stay with his brothers (counting Dickey Betts, Berry Oakley, Jaimoe & Butch Trucks as family)....Duane DID appear at the two D&tD shows that didn't coincide with the ABB tour schedule.

Duane was definitely a member of the Domino's. That is for certain. No question. He was in BOTH bands.

[sjpdg]

Well ok if you want to get picky then McVie was the first bass player, left the band, Brunning was the next guy and then McVie came back.

However I would suggest that including Fleetwood Mac the instrumental (and whatever the other song was called) as being by Fleetwood Mac the band would be stretching it just a little.

Actually that scenario would give more weight to Brunning being a member as he would have replaced John McVie who had LEFT!!!

We agree on this. At least as far as I can tell. In my opinion, it goes as follows: McVie, Brunning, McVie. Brunning should absolutely be considered a member of Fleetwood Mac. I don't dispute that for a moment.

You may have a point that the instrumenal Fleetwood Mac might be stretching it a little, but those were the original core members that would eventually form Fleetwood Mac the band, so I consider it a Fleetwood Mac song, not a Bluesbreakers tune.