US Health Care Bill Vote Today

[Musicman408]

Today they're voting. What do you all think of the bill???

Personally, with the whole notion of healthcare, I don't know enough to have a strong opinion, and don't really know where to look for a NON partisan description of it!!

[mylittledemon]

My only real problem with it is that American can't afford it. It seems this is going to cause the declining spiral that America seems to find itself in to continue.

[tilthefirefades]

My only real problem with it is that American can't afford it. It seems this is going to cause the declining spiral that America seems to find itself in to continue.

Plenty of other countries adjusted just fine ;) I personally don't see the need for debate. It seems to be obvious what should happen, health care should be a right, and free.

[StreetAngel95]

Plenty of other countries adjusted just fine ;) I personally don't see the need for debate. It seems to be obvious what should happen, health care should be a right, and free.

AMEN, brothers and sisters!

[Musicman408]

For me, its just frustrating how all Republicans are doing is downgrading the bill. Is it really that bad???????? What is their deal?

[FMlex]

Health care isn't a right.

Hell, even happiness isn't a right. The pursuit of happiness is a right. But not happiness itself. That's up to you to go out and get.

I just don't understand why American people would want the government even more involved in their lives.

[mylittledemon]

Health care isn't a right.


I agree. It isn't a right.

I do believe, though, that everyone should ideally be entitled to it. America, in the end, cannot afford it. They need to come up with a better system rather than pushing something for the sake of passing something. I think the protesters in Washington are a pretty big sign/indicator. I know everyone here is waiting for America to wake the f**k up. I mean that with love. ;)

[louielouie2000]

Honestly, at this point I just hope something happens so I never have to hear about it again. I'm so sick of all of the headlines, bickering, and division. I don't care whether it passes or fails. In my opinion any healthcare overhaul is just smoke and mirrors if it doesn't include a public option... something which has been taken off the table months ago now. Of course, whenever this story blows over, the media will just move on to something else to beat to f-ing death, something to further divide Americans. :rolleyes:

[tilthefirefades]

Health care isn't a right.

Hell, even happiness isn't a right. The pursuit of happiness is a right. But not happiness itself. That's up to you to go out and get.

I just don't understand why American people would want the government even more involved in their lives.

Because it is necessary. Forgive my liberal ideals, but some people need help. I have health insurance, but that doesn't stop me from wanting other people to have it too. I don't need food stamps or anything like that, but some people really do. Just because the government helps out, it doesn't make us an effing communist, socialist blah blah blah country, like some think it does. And just how is the government so very involved in our everyday lives? But I digress, health care is free in many other countries. It is clear that our entire system is corrupt, and doesn't work properly at all. The reason we aren't getting it passed is because the health insurance companies (that **** Americans over everyday) have payed off the majority of the House of Representatives and the Senate. The Republicans that are against it, are the main ones being paid major bucks to feel that way.

[FMlex]

This bill is just another element in a certain "agenda" which is on the road to turning America into something that our Founding Fathers would not be able to recognize.

I know I'm probably one of the only conservatives on here, but that's just my view. I won't say anything else on this thread. :)

[louielouie2000]

Something I don't quite understand is people's fear of "the government." We are the government. Regular citizens who are your neighbors are "the government." The crazy dude who flew into the IRS office in Austin killed somebody's dad and husband. That poor man was just trying to put food on his family's table... he didn't even make policy! If you don't like "the government," V-O-T-E!! Run for office yourself. Write your legislators. Protest. Form citizen groups. Whatever. Or if the US is so horrific, and no longer supports your ideals... there are other countries which are glad to accept additional tax revenue from new citizens. I just don't understand people's fear and hatred of this vague, faceless, all powerful, evil "government." :shrug:

PS- This is just a random vent, I'm not directing any of this at anyone at all :p

[mylittledemon]

Or if the US is so horrific, and no longer supports your ideals... there are other countries which are glad to accept additional tax revenue from new citizens.

That is truly part of the reason I left.

[louielouie2000]

This bill is just another element in a certain "agenda" which is on the road to turning America into something that our Founding Fathers would not be able to recognize.

I know I'm probably one of the only conservatives on here, but that's just my view. I won't say anything else on this thread. :)

By all means, the Ledge is full of open minded, intelligent people. If you've got something to say, I know I can say at least I'd like to hear it :wavey:. I'm all for a spirited debate too, as long as we can all keep it on the issues, and not get personal.

Please forgive my generalizations (and keep in mind I'm debating for the sake of debating, not picking on you or any one person), but it seems conservatives always pull out the Founding Fathers card whenever new legislation is in the works. Do we really think the Founding Fathers would have wanted our country to stay stagnant, and not pass any new bills or laws? Would they not have wanted their country to stay current with the times, and evolve to fit it's current needs? The US has to stay competitive and attractive to it's ever more mobile citizens (and corporations, etc), or they will vote with their feet. Despite what many say, it's still vital for the health of our country and economy to attract new citizens as well. We've gotta keep adding to our tax base, or we'll go completely bankrupt (not that we're all that far off right now, but I digress...).

[louielouie2000]

That is truly part of the reason I left.

My 'husband' and I have considered the same thing for years ourselves, truth be told. We've entered an era of unprecedented divisiveness and hatred in the US this past 10 years. It just seems to be getting worse, too. I blame the media as much or more than partisan politics. It just seems everybody is so angry, all the time here these days. I dunno, maybe 200+ years on, the US is finally going through it's awkward adolescence. Perhaps this too, shall pass.

[tilthefirefades]

Well this bill has passed, I believe, lets see where this takes us...

[iamnotafraid]

Well this bill has passed, I believe, lets see where this takes us...

Forced to buy health insurance...

So this is how liberty dies....with thunderous applause.

Stand up and be counted Democrats, this is your day.

[David]

I just don't understand people's fear and hatred of this vague, faceless, all powerful, evil "government." :shrug:See Friedrich Hayek's "The Road to Serfdom."

Also, see Federalist Papers No. 10 & No. 51.

[louielouie2000]

Forced to buy health insurance...

So this is how liberty dies....with thunderous applause.

Stand up and be counted Democrats, this is your day.

Thunderous applause is an overstatement. This whole year long healthcare battle has left absolutely everybody bloody and battered. I don't think ANYONE'S enthusiastic about it anymore (no matter what side of the isle you're on). I think everyone's just ready to have it in the rear view mirror so the country can focus on other issues. And I'm talking about Republicans, Democrats, Independents, whatever. Liberty dying is being a bit on the melodramatic side too... I can think of dozens of other laws, bills, etc past and present that did more to denigrate liberty than a healthcare bill. But again, I digress. :)

[SandyMac]

I just worry about the hidden costs in all of this that no one in Congress could imagine down the line.

I am also tired of all this bickering. I wish though more focus would be on jobs and the economy rather than who is controlling health care.

[louielouie2000]

See Friedrich Hayek's "The Road to Serfdom."

Also, see Federalist Papers No. 10 & No. 51.

The common thread in all of those suggests that the Founding Fathers themselves were against partisan politics, and especially partisan divisiveness... that it would eventually erode the very fabric of our country. And there's absolutely proof of that happening today. We saw it with the backlash to things such as the Patriot Act, and we're seeing it with this Healthcare Bill. Or are you picking another point out of those writings altogether?

[tilthefirefades]

I just worry about the hidden costs in all of this that no one in Congress could imagine down the line.

I am also tired of all this bickering. I wish though more focus would be on jobs and the economy rather than who is controlling health care.

Well Obama just made a speech about it, and he said that this reform will reduce our deficit by billions in the next decade, and a trillion in the decade after that.

[louielouie2000]

I am also tired of all this bickering. I wish though more focus would be on jobs and the economy rather than who is controlling health care.

+1. To me, that seems to be the much, much larger issue at hand. Seems it's being bypassed for ego. But perhaps I'm just too narrow minded to see the larger picture? :shrug: I'm not really for or against this healthcare bill... but I absolutely do think it's 110% the wrong time to be battling over it.

[WildHeart69]

Plenty of other countries adjusted just fine ;) I personally don't see the need for debate. It seems to be obvious what should happen, health care should be a right, and free.

That is a misconception...

The French Health Care system (considered by many to be the BEST in the world, mind you) is going BROKE and is headed in a downward spiral if things dont change. Yeah - of course all of the citizens love and praise it, its amazing! but it can't work in the US for a number of reasons and mark my words, that we will be in a much bigger hole in the long run from this.

[WildHeart69]

Honestly, at this point I just hope something happens so I never have to hear about it again. I'm so sick of all of the headlines, bickering, and division. I don't care whether it passes or fails. In my opinion any healthcare overhaul is just smoke and mirrors if it doesn't include a public option... something which has been taken off the table months ago now. Of course, whenever this story blows over, the media will just move on to something else to beat to f-ing death, something to further divide Americans. :rolleyes:

best bet is move to Canada?? :eek:

[WildHeart69]

I agree. It isn't a right.

I do believe, though, that everyone should ideally be entitled to it. America, in the end, cannot afford it. They need to come up with a better system rather than pushing something for the sake of passing something. I think the protesters in Washington are a pretty big sign/indicator. I know everyone here is waiting for America to wake the f**k up. I mean that with love. ;)

Agreed, agreed and agreed!

NZ has a pretty much similar system as we currently do here, right? I may be wrong

[mylittledemon]

My 'husband' and I have considered the same thing for years ourselves, truth be told. We've entered an era of unprecedented divisiveness and hatred in the US this past 10 years. It just seems to be getting worse, too. I blame the media as much or more than partisan politics. It just seems everybody is so angry, all the time here these days. I dunno, maybe 200+ years on, the US is finally going through it's awkward adolescence. Perhaps this too, shall pass.

I think everyone is angry because they see the same change (for the worse) that so many of us see. I personally feel like I don't really recognize America anymore. That, or since I've gotten older - I'm just seeing it thru different eyes. In other words, seeing what was always there.

Case in point. My brother works for IKEA. I was visiting him in Atlanta last year, and I had just come into the store. He was drilling into (not wearing an IKEA uniform, mind you) some cabinets for a display he had designed. A woman walked right up to him (us) and said "How much is this?" while holding up some random designer bowl. There was no "Hello"... there was no "Excuse me"... no "Do you work here, sir?" ... Nothing of the sort. She then had the balls to yell at him for directing her to sales person! Manners, a very basic foundation of a good society, have gone right out the window.

And for Louie's argument - vote! Do what you can to change things! Well, some of us feel we've done our duty when we go vote for our senators and our President. But when you see something like this healthcare bill trying to get shoved through? It's quite plain that the politicians are not listening to the American people. (Am I wrong that the majority of Americans don't want this healthcare bill in it's current incarnation?) I'm also shocked that the whole of America hasn't marched on Washington (I expected full on rioting after the bank bailouts). I can't even watch the news anymore because it just makes me hang my head in dismay.

What to do? America, as I said before, seems caught in a spiral of it's own decline. The people do nothing, it seems out of apathy, or in my own case... The sheer mounting feeling that our voice no longer counts. While politicians grow fat... the crazies who control Iran are building nuclear weapons. While pedo priests rape our young men... We have the audacity to blame God (or at least those who believe in God) for contributing to the problem. Don't even get me started on that...

This is the same non-existent God, coincidentally, doesn't belong in our increasingly murder stricken schools. You know, I remember having silent prayer moments for schoolmates who passed and/or were sick, or dying even! That kind of prayer never hurt anybody from my recollection. I don't think the question is whether or not you should be offended by prayer in school in you are a non believer. I'm always of the mind left wondering if I even have the right to say a prayer. I think we're forgetting that the freedom to do such things is what made America what it is. It's the envy of the world for such reasons. Now? School shootings are almost a weekly occurrence. When I was in school (and I graduated HS in 1997) we never had to worry about knives, let alone guns. This dark cloud seems to have covered even the conscience of children.

But what do I know? I realize it's a whole hodge podge I've covered here and my brain was going to 10 places at once. At the end of it all, what I'm trying to say is... These problems aren't going to be solved by stuffing a mediocre, half-arsed health-care bill down the pipes. Hell, I dunno... maybe all I'm trying to say is that we should be less concerned about buying bowls at IKEA? Down with IKEA! :laugh: Whew. I've preached for the year. Don't expect any more rants from me. I'm sure you'll all be the wiser. ;)

[SandyMac]

Well Obama just made a speech about it, and he said that this reform will reduce our deficit by billions in the next decade, and a trillion in the decade after that.

I really do not believe all the "cooked" numbers.. only time will tell. The numbers kept changing and as with anything government related... the costs always seem higher than originally planned. But if this actually works out, I will eat my words, but doubt I will have to. Just a gut feeling I have we all will be paying for this in one form or another in the future.

I still do not know why they could not do this in smaller bills with some common sense thrown in. Oh yeah, we are talking about politicians and lobbying groups.. my mistake. :(

[mylittledemon]

Agreed, agreed and agreed!

NZ has a pretty much similar system as we currently do here, right? I may be wrong

Healthcare is provided by the government for all people. It has its pros and cons. "Extra" healthcare is also provided by most employers for an extra bi-monthly fee. For example... you can go see your GP for about $30 and get prescriptions for a few dollars. With insurance, that allows you to go the hospital and not be put on a "waiting list." It's especially helpful if you require surgeries. I can't imagine needing a major operation here and having to wait for weeks, or longer, to get it taken care of.

[WildHeart69]

I agree Sandy- this is not a self-sustainable plan in the least bit. A MAJOR tax increase would be necessary; like 25%... If the major pork were to be cut out of the current plan we could easily have the $$ to focus on the necessary fixes

[WildHeart69]

Healthcare is provided by the government for all people. It has its pros and cons. "Extra" healthcare is also provided by most employers for an extra bi-monthly fee. For example... you can go see your GP for about $30 and get prescriptions for a few dollars. With insurance, that allows you to go the hospital and not be put on a "waiting list." It's especially helpful if you require surgeries. I can't imagine needing a major operation here and having to wait for weeks, or longer, to get it taken care of.

I see... closer to the EU system than US. I know Pharma Industry practices are similar in NZ, but I wasnt sure about health care delivery

[SandyMac]

I agree Sandy- this is not a self-sustainable plan in the least bit. A MAJOR tax increase would be necessary; like 25%... If the major pork were to be cut out of the current plan we could easily have the $$ to focus on the necessary fixes

And I thought Obama said no tax increases for the middle class. :rolleyes::(
To be honest, nothing has changed with Obama's administration. It is all politics as usual.
The agenda just changed (one sided), both parties do it really. It is so sad politics has come to this. Where is the statesmanship, doing things in honest debate, and representing your constituents?

[vermicious knid]

Embarrassing graph comparing America to other countries. The lines connect the amount spent on health care per person (on the left) with the average life expectancy (on the right).
http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/5452/2876a6070f970c800wi.th.jpg (http://img262.imageshack.us/i/2876a6070f970c800wi.jpg/)


I think it is disgraceful how the bill was crafted to exclude everything big insurance and big pharma didn't want, but I still can't outright oppose it given that 45,000 people die every year due to lack of health care. link (http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=lack-of-insurance-causes-more-than-2009-09-17). It could have been a much better bill, but its more than the Republicans ever attempted when they had control.

[SandyMac]

Embarrassing graph comparing America to other countries. The lines connect the amount spent on health care per person (on the left) with the average life expectancy (on the right).
http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/5452/2876a6070f970c800wi.th.jpg (http://img262.imageshack.us/i/2876a6070f970c800wi.jpg/)


I think it is disgraceful how the bill was crafted to exclude everything big insurance and big pharma didn't want, but I still can't outright oppose it given that 45,000 people die every year due to lack of health care. link (http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=lack-of-insurance-causes-more-than-2009-09-17). It could have been a much better bill, but its more than the Republicans ever attempted when they had control.

This 45,000 people that die every year to lack of heath care.. that number was actually taken from a health poll done in the mid 1980's of people who had no health insurance and they just assume they never got any insurance now in 2010. Plus what about the thousands of people who die every year who actually have health insurance? Just because you have it, does not mean you eventually do not die.

My sister in law had health insurance and she died of cancer last year.

[louielouie2000]

To be honest, nothing has changed with Obama's administration. It is all politics as usual.
The agenda just changed (one sided), both parties do it really. It is so sad politics has come to this. Where is the statesmanship, doing things in honest debate, and representing your constituents?

Agreed. The best thing I can say for Obama at this point is at least he's a good public speaker, comes across as highly intelligent, and isn't as Us vs Them/scorched Earth when it comes to foreign policy (thus far). All of that is a big improvement over his predecessor. Otherwise, it's truly hard to distinguish him from GWB. Because he's just as bad about ignoring the moderate majority that is America, IMO and he's just as bullish with his very partisan politics. I'm not saying I'd have wanted McCain over Obama at all (the very thought of Palin being VP would be disastrous for our country), but I held higher hopes for at the very least, his style of carrying out his office. We'll see though... presidents tend to really show their true selves once/if they're elected to a second term. Maybe he'll end up surprising everyone for the good after all.

[tilthefirefades]

This 45,000 people that die every year to lack of heath care.. that number was actually taken from a health poll done in the mid 1980's of people who had no health insurance and they just assume they never got any insurance now in 2010. Plus what about the thousands of people who die every year who actually have health insurance? Just because you have it, does not mean you eventually do not die.

My sister in law had health insurance and she died of cancer last year.

Which is why the people with health insurance are the main reason for reform. I'm ready for the backlash, but how many people watched Michael Moore's documentary Sicko? That definitely opened my eyes quite a bit. People are actually marrying other people in Canada so that they can illegally get free insurance there. Mostly people with cancer that don't get enough coverage. There was one story he shared, of a woman whose child was running a fever of 104 I believe. She takes her child to the nearest hospital, and that hospital claimed that her insurance wouldn't work there. They told her to go to the hospital across the city in order to have her child get treated. Well, her child died on the way to the other hospital. I'm sure there are plenty of other cases just like this one. And whether or not this bill is perfect, it is a step in the right direction. Unfortunately, politics are indeed greatly corrupted, however we have no other choice in the matter but to allow them to do as they please. Protesting may work, but not too many people will do it. I have no idea why, but they won't, especially the minorities.

[SandyMac]

Agreed. The best thing I can say for Obama at this point is at least he's a good public speaker, comes across as highly intelligent, and isn't as Us vs Them/scorched Earth when it comes to foreign policy (thus far). All of that is a big improvement over his predecessor. Otherwise, it's truly hard to distinguish him from GWB. Because he's just as bad about ignoring the moderate majority that is America, IMO and he's just as bullish with his very partisan politics. I'm not saying I'd have wanted McCain over Obama at all (the very thought of Palin being VP would be disastrous for our country), but I held higher hopes for at the very least, his style of carrying out his office. We'll see though... presidents tend to really show their true selves once/if they're elected to a second term. Maybe he'll end up surprising everyone for the good after all.

Good point, I really did have high hopes for Obama, I just know that because he made all these wonderful promises to anyone who threw money at him, he is bound to make someone angry that does not agree with the way he makes his decisions. I mean, look at NOW, the women's org that is now mad at him because he is going to make an executive order making sure no federal money is spent on abortions, which makes the NOW org mad.

I really do feel for Obama, this is what happens when you campaign on such huge promises to a lot of different people and groups. I know all politicians do it, it just seemed so transparent and "in your face" than normal.

I really do believe America is more Center than what all the very left liberals would like to think. or even the really right conservatives. I think center is a good place to be. I was always brought up on listening to what the other side of debate is and to not think of life as black and white or liberal vs conservative. Life is too complicated for that kind of strict thinking. Being too far to one extreme is never a good thing for a country.

I think come November there will be a lot more republicans voted into office to balance this Congress out.

[mylittledemon]

Yes. medicine, seemingly, is supplied based on need and not to turn a ridiculous profit. My wife takes Voltaren (for her lupus). It costs us $3 a month as opposed to $25 a month (that's with insurance) in America!

[WildHeart69]

I'm not saying I'd have wanted McCain over Obama at all (the very thought of Palin being VP would be disastrous for our country),

Don't get me wrong... I agree... but what has Biden done for us really?

I saw an interview with Ted Nugent who made a GREAT point: when you introduce fear into society, they will listen to whatever you tell them in hopes of a brighter future. And Obama, being the charismatic candidate and great speaker he was and along with his celebrity backing, had all the right words for everyone. Granted, he is a RAGING Republican- but I think he hit the nail right on the head.

[vivfox]

My sister in law had health insurance and she died of cancer last year.


I'm sorry about the loss of your sister. I'm sure that was devistating.

I bet having health insurance was a comfort for her, knowing she didn't have a high monetary price to keep herself alive, and knowing that her loved ones would not be stuck with the hassle of paying enormous amounts of money after her death.

I'm sorry I had to use your sister as an example.

Here in Massachusetts we have Universal Health Care. I never had health insurance until this was implemented and being able to utilize it has greatly improved my overall health because I can now practice peventive health care without worrying about cost. Cost alone, was enough to keep me from getting some of the help I needed.

[WildHeart69]

Which is why the people with health insurance are the main reason for reform. I'm ready for the backlash, but how many people watched Michael Moore's documentary Sicko? That definitely opened my eyes quite a bit.

I'm sorry, but if you don't think Michael Moore spins things out of control in EVERY movie he has made, then I have news for you.....

[tilthefirefades]

I'm sorry, but if you don't think Michael Moore spins things out of control in EVERY movie he has made, then I have news for you.....

Hahaha, well I like him pretty good. Bowling For Columbine made me a fan. However after that, he does have a different agenda, very obvious too.

[WildHeart69]

Bowling For Columbine is a good example of his manipulation..... he made a total ASS out of Charlton Heston- WHO WAS SUFFERING WITH ALZHEIMER'S!!!

[tilthefirefades]

Bowling For Columbine is a good example of his manipulation..... he made a total ASS out of Charlton Heston- WHO WAS SUFFERING WITH ALZHEIMER'S!!!

That doesn't what change what he did, I think everyone can agree that having a NRA meeting held days after a tragic shooting is wrong.

[louielouie2000]

Don't get me wrong... I agree... but what has Biden done for us really?

I saw an interview with Ted Nugent who made a GREAT point: when you introduce fear into society, they will listen to whatever you tell them in hopes of a brighter future. And Obama, being the charismatic candidate and great speaker he was and along with his celebrity backing, had all the right words for everyone. Granted, he is a RAGING Republican- but I think he hit the nail right on the head.

Fantastic points, both of them. Biden hasn't done much other than stay mostly quiet, and only made himself look like an idiot a couple of times... not something I'm sure you could say right now Palin been in his shoes :laugh: :wavey:

I actually agree with that quote from Nugent, too. I've always said the reason why Obama got elected wasn't promises of handouts (something Republicans are entirely convinced of), but instead, they elected him for his tone, and at least promise of the pursuit of hope and happier days. Of working with other Nations, not alienating ourselves from them... of focusing on taking care of our own people and their direct needs, versus being an international police state. And perhaps in those areas, Obama is succeeding.




Just as a disclaimer: I'm obviously a fairly liberal person... but that does not mean I'm a democrat. I've voted for republicans and independents, and disagree with certain liberal mainstay ideas. I'm definitely becoming more centrist with age, too. Oh, and I LOVE to play Devil's Advocate... mainly because I truly enjoy seeing what makes people tick, where their ideals come from, etc.

[WildHeart69]

I think everyone can agree that having a NRA meeting held days after a tragic shooting is wrong.


I don't :sorry:I mean, the NRA stands for safety and rights.... I think the NRA is trying to PREVENT things like the Columbine shooting.

Gun control is a WHOOOOLE other issue, but as Louie touched on earlier, when you start messing with the founding father's plans, you are on a slippery slope..

I think we should agree to disagree, or we could start a new thread.

[tilthefirefades]

I don't :sorry:I mean, the NRA stands for safety and rights.... I think the NRA is trying to PREVENT things like the Columbine shooting.

Gun control is a WHOOOOLE other issue, but as Louie touched on earlier, when you start messing with the founding father's plans, you are on a slippery slope..

I think we should agree to disagree, or we could start a new thread.

Fair enough :) I do enjoy a good debate though.

Back on topic: Obama says: "Anthony, this is just one more link in the chain" And I say "Well I have to believe him" :rolleyes:

[WildHeart69]

Fantastic points, both of them. Biden hasn't done much other than stay mostly quiet, and only made himself look like an idiot a couple of times... not something I'm sure you could say right now Palin been in his shoes :laugh: :wavey:


ehh, I dunno about that... I mean, had McCain won, she wouldnt have written that book and had all of the Leno, Conan, The View, etc bookings where she shoots her mouth off on live TV. I think the White House "handlers" would be doing exactly what they are doing with Biden right now and kept her on a tight leash.

Just my opinion, of course

[louielouie2000]

ehh, I dunno about that... I mean, had McCain won, she wouldnt have written that book and had all of the Leno, Conan, The View, etc bookings where she shoots her mouth off on live TV. I think the White House "handlers" would be doing exactly what they are doing with Biden right now and kept her on a tight leash.

Just my opinion, of course

You're undoubtedly right... but as a rebuttal, they sure didn't do a very good job corking up Dick Cheney. In the end, I think a vice president's vocality has as much to do with how closely tied their political beliefs are versus their president's. Biden isn't just quiet because he's a dummy being muzzled, I think he's also fairly quiet because his ideals aren't all that different from Obama's. In my eyes, Cheney had far more focused and distinct goals than George W... and that's why he was so vocal. I'd tend to think Palin would follow in those steps. McCain for the most part, is pretty moderate and centrist... and Palin, just isn't. She's very vocal with what she believes, and won't back down on her beliefs one iota (not a bad thing at all for a politician, truthfully).

I must say, I'm having a good time bantering back and for with you! :thumbsup: :woohoo:

[APerfectLie]

I've never understood why it is that people don't want health care reform. I am a type one diabetic and I know first hand how insurance companies are always going to dick you any time they can. It is all about profit for them and the less they pay for, the more money they make. Ergo, the less treatment people get the more money they make. It's a ****ed up system because they have an interest, a benefit, in denying you coverage or treatment! I am not satisfied with this bill because it does not have a public option, but it is one step closer. Why do we want the govt even more active in our lives? Because that is what the govt is here for. As Lincoln said, " that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth." Government is a social contract we make with each other, and we give up some of our freedoms in order to protect us. I wonder what you think is more important to a group of people, education or being alive? If school was privatized, every one would go crazy. So why is it that giving people the right to health care is so preposterous? Granted it won't guarantee that you will live, but it will give you a hell of a better shot at it. I take insulin every day to live and without it I die. Luckily, I am still covered by my mom's insurance, however, when I graduate college in a year, I will be dropped from her insurance. Had congress not done away with "pre-existing conditions" I would SOL until I found a job who offered insurance. That would mean I would have to spend $480 a month just to live, until I found a job. That's just for the insulin alone, not counting the test strips, insulin pump supplies, and any doctor's visits. Of course, our health care problems don't lie solely with the insurance companies, but also with drug companies and even doctors too. It's a huge mess and anyone who sits back and thinks our system is fine is terribly mistaken, misinformed, or naive. Health care isn't fixed yet, but it is on its way to getting better.

[Zombie]

This is not a "perfect" bill, but there was no way it was ever going to be - no matter what you do, someone is going to be upset about it, and want it to go away.

The problem comes in when people are opposed to ANYTHING based on knee-jerk emotional reactions or ideas they haven't quite thought through.

Case in point, my aunt was spazzing over how terrible this is (this from a woman that is in constant chronic pain due to a botched scoliosis surgery as a child, who has no insurance and can't afford pain meds and doctor's visits like she needs), because "it will result in people being euthanized."

...wat.

I am very interested to see how this plays out, whether it will or won't help the situation, but I can't get behind the idea that we shouldn't have some sort of program in place to help people that don't have health coverage.

< anecdata >

I make too much to get state aid, but not enough to afford decent coverage for myself or my kids on my own. I live in fear of one of us getting seriously ill, because I just can't afford to get sick. And I have chronic health problems myself that I must just soldier through, because there's nothing I can do about it.

My kids' father made too much to get state aid, by about a measly 50 bucks, but not enough to be able to afford insurance through his job, either, and as a result, after his first heart attack (which cost nearly 40k for a 3 day hospital stay and stent surgery, which the hospital ended up suing him for because he couldn't afford the payments they wanted), was unable to afford the regular check-ups and medications that would keep him alive.

About a year later - despite quitting smoking, completely changing his diet, and walking at least 11 miles a day to and from work - he had another heart attack and died. One that could've been prevented, had he had access to the medicine he needed.

He did everything he could do to improve his health on his own, but it wasn't enough - he needed help, and he couldn't get it.

Now, do I know for absolute sure that he would still be with us if he HAD had access to what he needed? Of course not. But I don't rule out the strong possibility that he might be.

And I know way too many more stories just like that, though I wish I didn't.

< /anecdata >

I firmly believe that we, as a society, should take care of each other, and that includes doing what we can to make sure we're all as healthy as possible. The lack of affordable health care in this country has the potential to cause us some really devastating problems, and we need to get started on heading that off at the pass before it is too late.

No one should have to choose between feeding their family and buying a prescription they need to stay alive. No one should have to sit and suffer through debilitating chronic pain or illness because they can't afford to do otherwise. No one should live in fear of getting even slightly sick.

This law is not going to be set in stone and stay the way it is written now forever. No laws we have do that - they are built to change and evolve as we change and evolve. What this does do, though, is get us set up and moving in the right direction - towards something that everyone can live with, something that will help those that need it and not affect those that don't.

[holidayroad]

I don't love everything about this health care bill. I don't think people should be Forced to buy health insurance. I do know that changes need to be made though. I hope the parts about not denying coverage to children with pre-existing conditions and no longer having a 'lifetime dollar amount 'set on policies go through. My son has reached his lifetime dollar amounts with two different insurance companies. He's only 7 years old. I have often been afraid that once he reaches adulthood, no insurance company is going to take him on.

[David]

I downloaded the PDF of the bill a few days ago & did an electronic search for the word "tort." The search came up empty. I assume, therefore, that this enormous, hugely expensive bill makes absolutely no provisions for reform in tort issues--primarily, plainly unreasonable jury awards? Also, what about malpractice insurance coverage costs? Any move toward making those costs more reasonable, whether by opening state-line regulations & growing the competition or by jury award reform?

If it's my "right" to be treated by a physician, why isn't it my "right" to have a lifelong food supply put in front of me? or a lifelong water supply? The point isn't "rights"--the point is having access to a product or service by way of a delivery system on the open market. "Free" healthcare might be free for YOU, but it isn't free for other parties along the delivery system. When a physician treats you, it is costing her: in time, training, & money. It is supremely inefficient for the state to attempt to pay the costs of every party involved in the healthcare delivery system--mark my words, people will continue to sicken & die waiting for a bureaucracy to respond to their needs. It's demonstrably more efficient & safer & more moral to allow a market to operate the way a market operates: allow a demand for a product or service to generate delivery across a cost spectrum, from cheap to expensive, depending on how much an individual wants to or can afford to spend.

When I want to buy something, I want thousands of suppliers competing for my dollar. I want each supplier knowing full well that if I'm not happy with one, I'll quickly move to another. Such a novel approach should have been implemented, & in order to implement it, the state would have had to deregulate by allowing customers to transact business with any health insurance company in the country.

Is there a real-world example of a largely (but not completely) deregulated market in America today that, through innovation & the freedom to compete, is successful at delivering its product to just about everybody who wants one & who makes huge profits that, in turn, drive further innovation--in most cases, at a whirlwind pace, creating thousands of jobs & giving just about all of us access to a world of information--at a price that drops year after year after year?

Look down at the machine you're typing on right now.

[vermicious knid]

After reviewing thousands of patient records, medical researchers have estimated that only 2 to 3 percent of cases of medical negligence lead to a malpractice claim.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/23/business/economy/23leonhardt.html?_r=1&scp=3

Numerous studies have consistently shown that increasing damage awards from malpractice explain only a small portion of the rapid rise in health care costs. A January 2004 study by the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) found from 1986 to 2002, malpractice insurance premiums jumped 15% per year, while the average damage award rose only 8% ($95,000 to $320,000).
http://www.perrspectives.com/blog/archives/001648.htm#three (this is a good website)




Some people (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marcia-angell-md/is-the-house-health-care_b_350190.html) and organizations (http://static1.firedoglake.com/1/files/2010/03/mythfactshcr-2.pdf) that oppose the bill say the best reforms (Medicare expansion and drug price negotiation) are not in this bill, but they don't include tort reform as one of them.

[APerfectLie]

I don't love everything about this health care bill. I don't think people should be Forced to buy health insurance. I do know that changes need to be made though. I hope the parts about not denying coverage to children with pre-existing conditions and no longer having a 'lifetime dollar amount 'set on policies go through. My son has reached his lifetime dollar amounts with two different insurance companies. He's only 7 years old. I have often been afraid that once he reaches adulthood, no insurance company is going to take him on.

I must say that I agree, but I have mixed feelings on the subject. I want to buy health insurance as it would not be wise of me not to, however I don't feel you should ever be forced to buy a product. But I do believe this provision will piss a lot of people off and they will began to DEMAND that if the govt requires us to have health insurance, the govt should provide it, which will segway into a public option.

[tilthefirefades]

I must say that I agree, but I have mixed feelings on the subject. I want to buy health insurance as it would not be wise of me not to, however I don't feel you should ever be forced to buy a product. But I do believe this provision will piss a lot of people off and they will began to DEMAND that if the govt requires us to have health insurance, the govt should provide it, which will segway into a public option.


Which would be incredible. America at one time sat the example for other countries to follow, now it's the opposite.

[WildHeart69]

just read this in an MSN.com article:

Q: What will happen to my premiums?

A: That's hard to predict and the subject of much debate. People who are sick might face lower premiums than otherwise because insurers wouldn't be permitted to charge sick people more; healthier people might pay more.

good times!

[tilthefirefades]

Here is a nice summary of the bill that was passed.

http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/politics/2010/03/22/what-is-and-isnt-in-the-healthcare-bill.html

[carrie721]

This bill is just another element in a certain "agenda" which is on the road to turning America into something that our Founding Fathers would not be able to recognize.

I know I'm probably one of the only conservatives on here, but that's just my view. I won't say anything else on this thread. :)

our founding forefathers also wouldn't recognize an america where women could vote, black people aren't slaves, the hummaseckshuls can live their lives out in the open, people drive crazy motorized horseless carriages, etc etc. so, y'know. you might want to drop that argument.

[David]

After reviewing thousands of patient records, medical researchers have estimated that only 2 to 3 percent of cases of medical negligence lead to a malpractice claim.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/23/business/economy/23leonhardt.html?_r=1&scp=3

Numerous studies have consistently shown that increasing damage awards from malpractice explain only a small portion of the rapid rise in health care costs. A January 2004 study by the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) found from 1986 to 2002, malpractice insurance premiums jumped 15% per year, while the average damage award rose only 8% ($95,000 to $320,000).
http://www.perrspectives.com/blog/archives/001648.htm#three (this is a good website)

"The average liability judgment in medical negligence cases increased by 234 percent between 1996 and 2002, and the trend continues." Jury Verdict Research, Current Award Trends in Personal Injury 18 (43ded. 2004)

"According to a study by Towers Perrin in 2007, medical liability went from 5.8 percent of total tort court costs in 1975 to 12.2 percent in 2006. Annual cost growth since 1975 has averaged 11.1 percent per year for medical liability, and 8.4 percent per year for other torts. Further, between 2005 and 2006, when overall U.S. tort costs fell by 5.5 percent, medical liability costs were still rising by almost three percent." American Medical Association. Medical Liability Reform – NOW!. Feb 5, 2008

"In many areas, lawsuits have rendered liability insurance either unaffordable or unattainable. The result is physicians who refuse to perform certain procedures for risk of suit and large groups of consumers who are artificially priced out of the insurance market." National MICRA Under Attack, California Physician, 31 January 2003. Available at http://calphys.org/html/bb113.asp

"Limited available data indicate that growth in malpractice premiums and claims payments has been slower in states that enacted tort reform laws that include certain caps on noneconomic damages." U.S. General Accounting Office report "Implications of Rising Premiums on Access to Health Care, Aug. 2003

"The American Medical Association (AMA) commented that the scope of work was not sufficient to support the finding that rising malpractice premiums have not contributed to widespread health care access problems." U.S. General Accounting Office report "Implications of Rising Premiums on Access to Health Care, Aug. 2003


Some people (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marcia-angell-md/is-the-house-health-care_b_350190.html) and organizations (http://static1.firedoglake.com/1/files/2010/03/mythfactshcr-2.pdf) that oppose the bill say the best reforms (Medicare expansion and drug price negotiation) are not in this bill, but they don't include tort reform as one of them.And do they include any steps whatsoever to lower premiums costs to physicians, hospitals, & out-patient facilities for malpractice insurance?

[SandyMac]

I'm sorry about the loss of your sister. I'm sure that was devistating.

I bet having health insurance was a comfort for her, knowing she didn't have a high monetary price to keep herself alive, and knowing that her loved ones would not be stuck with the hassle of paying enormous amounts of money after her death.

I'm sorry I had to use your sister as an example.

Here in Massachusetts we have Universal Health Care. I never had health insurance until this was implemented and being able to utilize it has greatly improved my overall health because I can now practice peventive health care without worrying about cost. Cost alone, was enough to keep me from getting some of the help I needed.

Well, she was sick off and on just coughing and not feeling well and 3 weeks later, passed away. No one knew she had cancer.

And where the hell did people get the idea we were not for health care reform damn it!
I think everyone wants reform, it was just done in such a half assed backwards way. I want reform, but want it done right! Do you know they are voting on 'fixes" to the Senate bill on the Senate portion that was passed?

There is no such thing as free health care, even at reduced rates to you and I, someone is paying for it.

Now, I am going to demand free access to drinking water and food. It is my right! Without it, I will suffer and get sick. It is my right to remain healthy right?

Yes, I am being very very sarcastic because I am not sure where common sense went in America. Why the hell is Federal Government telling me what to buy? or pay a penalty?
OMG, this is ridiculous.

This is really sad that our legislative process has come down to transparent and in your face arm twisting of politicians to vote for an agenda and not have the best interest of the American people.

Come November, there are going to be a lot of Democrats fired over this.

[WildHeart69]

And where the hell did people get the idea we were not for health care reform damn it!
I think everyone wants reform, it was just done in such a half assed backwards way. I want reform, but want it done right! Do you know they are voting on 'fixes" to the Senate bill on the Senate portion that was passed?


Yeah, I had a "WTF?" moment when I saw that comment as well! I don't think there is anyone who DOESN'T want health care reform...
When you look at the Totally WASTED and UNACCOUNTED FOR spending(according to a CNN report, nearly 20%!) that goes on currently in our system there is no way why we can't fix the current system and put all of this money to ACTUAL use! Pelosi et al are too worried about going into the history books with the likes of those who enacted Social Security etc with a new and revolutionary system...

[Ghost_Tracker]

Just some initial thoughts - - I'm still mulling all this over because I feel it's VERY complex:


I think the systemic problems in our government need to be fixed FIRST.
Frankly - i.m.o. - if the Democrat's bill IS messed up, it's NOT because of some backwards half-assed philosophy of government that these - stupid evil fools, is that supposed to be the general idea? - have come up with. It's because they feel STRONGLY that the Republican philosophy is bad for the country, and so they want to stay in power. And so - - in a very real way - they have NO choice but to be influenced by the Lobbyists. The LOBBYISTS f'd up this bill, not the Democrats.

And here's what I feel is important to "get" -
If the Republicans were in the majority - and their bill WAS messed up - it would NOT be because of some backwards half-assed philosophy that these - stupid evil fools, is that the idea? etc. etc.

The reason for Lobbyists, obviously, is financial. The reason big-time finances are involved is TV ads. (Maybe ads on the internet these days, too.) If they made those ads free, I bet the price of a cup of sugar would go up by a whopping tenth of a cent. So why not just make the freaking political ads free? And charge more for non-political commercials. BOOM, the Lobbyists are gone, or at least their influence is greatly reduced.

Of course, then you have everybody and their dog running for Congress. But maybe they could puzzle out ways to work through all that - petitions on free web sites signed by a half million people in order to qualify for being a candidate, etc.

The way it is now, how can they POSSIBLY get anything done when the Lobbyists have "the power of the purse?" ..... :shrug:

[LikeAWillow]

Get your White House official "Health Reform is a BFD" shirts here:

http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/fbtshirtpoll