Rhiannon Album Discussion

[mikebise]

Since we started talking about the Rhiannon album project and its offshoots on the demo timeline thread, it looks like time to start a new one dedicated to Stevie's project based on the Welsh goddess.

This includes all the various mentions Stevie has made over the decades about the project: the album, the movie, the ballet, the Lord of The Rings type project she alluded to in 2007, etc.

I'll get the ball rolling by starting with the known songs for the project. Demoed in Early 1978 were the following songs intended for the album:

"Rhiannon"
"Forsaken Love"
"Forest of The Black Roses"
"The Maker of Birds" (Stevie's copyrighted title, not "Three Birds of Rhiannon")

"Stay Away" ~ Circulated by Maureen Loftus in 1998, "Stay Away" mentions the Birds of Rhiannon and seems to be a song for this project. It sounds like it's from 1978 as well.

Other songs? In May 1989, at the "Alice in Wonderland" release party for The Other Side of The Mirror, Stevie revealed that twenty songs had been written for the Rhiannon album, and that eleven of the songs had been fully recorded, mixed and mastered! At the time, she said she hoped to do something special with those songs, perhaps releasing them and doing a tour.

Stevie didn't say when those 11 songs were recorded, just that they were fully-produced songs.

[vermicious knid]

We have it from Stevie herself that "Sorcerer" and "Planets of the Universe" are included. link (http://rockalittle.com/interview_969fn_phoenix_may2001.htm)

There is also this master reel called "Music Film Score" that includes "Blue Water". link (http://www.angelfire.com/music3/rhiannon/SN-Music-Film-Score.html)




This is something that has been a matter of curiosity for so long. I just sent an email to Danny Goldberg asking him to solve the mystery for us. Wouldn't it be great if we finally got the answer?

[vermicious knid]

Never mind! Delivery failure notice http://i41.tinypic.com/m9okqp.gif

[mikebise]

The opening guitar line in “Planets” is a nod to Lindsey’s guitar part from “Rhiannon.” Did you write it that way back in ’76?

“Well, it’s the same chords basically as ‘Rhiannon’; it’s not exactly the same, but there are parts of it that are the same. ‘Planets Of The Universe’ was one of the ‘Rhiannon’ songs—I have 11 songs over all of these years that if I ever wanted to do a movie or something built around the story of ‘Rhiannon.’ Those songs are all continuations of each other—‘Planets,’ ‘Rhiannon’ and ‘Sorcerer.’ I have recorded all 11 of them, just sat and played them all in a row to see what my line was through the whole thing, and for a long time I didn’t want to separate them.”

[I]Are we familiar with any of those other tracks or are they songs that haven’t been released yet?

“There’s two or three on all the solo albums all the way back, but there’s probably seven left.”

WOW!!!! How did I miss this interview??!!!!! Thanks for sharing!!!!!!!!!! This is amazing!!!

"Blue Water" is on the Master Reel, but I never considered it, as Stevie said it was written about her Hawaiian vacation during the Rumours tour. Of course, it very well could be part of Rhiannon!

[mikebise]

Rhiannon
The Maker of Birds
Sorcerer
Stay Away
Forest of The Black Roses
Forsaken Love
Planets of The Universe
Blue Water

I'm not sure which 2 or 3 songs on "all the solo albums" Stevie could be referring to...

[Christopher]

I'm not sure which 2 or 3 songs on "all the solo albums" Stevie could be referring to...

"Kind of Woman" immediately springs to mind. That song seems to fit the same theme, and she wrote it around the the era of Rhiannon/Sorcerer . The only other song from her solo release's that seems possible is perhaps "Destiny".

I always thought that "Goodbye Baby" aka "The Tower" on certain bootlegs, was part of the Rhiannon songs. In the final SYW version, Stevie changes the lyrics a bit to make it feel more universal.

[mikebise]

"Kind of Woman", yes! Brain freeze!

"Goodbye Baby" is on all those demo reels from the same era, so that's a good choice.

"Destiny" was written in 1973, same Colorado trip as "Rhiannon", so I dunno. Possibly. (Although how she described writing it on the Street Angel tour make it seem much more personal, but it's a good contender).

Of course, Stevie could always have taken an older song (older than 1978) and have re-envisioned it as a Rhiannon song. Case in point: "Sorcerer" was written in 1974, well before Stevie read the Evangeline Walton books. It does fit the theme somewhat, being about Merlin and the sorceress Viviaine/Nimue/Morgaine/pick your own Arthurian seductress.

[mikebise]

OH!!!!!!! I just found a 1978 Master Reel with "Goodbye Baby" and "Kind of Woman" back-to-back on the same track! Both piano demos, a different vocal by Stevie than the widely circulated "Goodbye Baby" demo. "Kind of Woman" is the piano demo with the 14 Stevies overdubbing herself.

So, if these are on the same Master Reel, possibly they were for the Rhiannon album!

Rhiannon
The Maker of Birds
Sorcerer
Kind of Woman
Forsaken Love
Goodbye Baby
Planets of The Universe
Stay Away
Forest of The Black Roses

Blue Water
Destiny

I wish there was a piano demo of "Sorcerer"!!!!

[ButterCookie]

OH!!!!!!! I just found a 1978 Master Reel with "Goodbye Baby" and "Kind of Woman" back-to-back on the same track! Both piano demos, a different vocal by Stevie than the widely circulated "Goodbye Baby" demo. "Kind of Woman" is the piano demo with the 14 Stevies overdubbing herself.

:eek: Would you be able to post this?

[mikebise]

I would love to, hopefully very soon when I move and get high speed internet. Right now, it's an impossibility. I'm very sorry.

[David]

"Destiny" was written in 1973, same Colorado trip as "Rhiannon"I thought that time in Aspen was in 1974, when Don Everly toured on his solo album. I know Nicks has flip-flopped on her years of composition for "Rhiannon" & "Landslide," probably inadvertently, but if she was stuck in Aspen while Lindsey was touring with Everly, it would have been 1974. Quick -- find out when Greyhound workers went on a national strike!

[michelej1]

Quick -- find out when Greyhound workers went on a national strike!

Let's say November 18-25, based on this excerpt from a NY Times article. I didn't pay for the whole thing.

______________________________

By The Associated Press

November 25, 1974, Monday

Page 1, 355 words

Greyhound Bus Lines and Amalgamated Transit Union reached an agreement today, ending a week-long strike by bus drivers and other workers. Buses began rolling again shortly after the accord was announced. The agreement is subject to ratification by union members

[StreetAngel95]

Let's say November 18-25, based on this excerpt from a NY Times article. I didn't pay for the whole thing.



hehe, love that:laugh:

[mikebise]

I know, but she performed "Rhiannon" in Spring & Summer 1974, well before November.

Stevie writing "Rhiannon" one month before joining FM does not match up with her live performances of it. I know, all these writing dates/Aspen trip dates come from Stevie herself, but live tapes from earlier in 1974 contradict this.

And "Destiny"'s original copyright is 1973. But.... Stevie said in 1994 that she wrote it on the same Colorado trip as "Landslide" & "Rhiannon".

Or was it a different, earlier trip?

[SapphireSister]

:eek: Would you be able to post this?
Not sure if this is it but it here's Kind of Woman:
http://rapidshare.com/files/363346212/01_Kind_of_Woman_Piano_Demo.m4a.html
Does the link work? Were you able to download?

[David]

I know, but she performed "Rhiannon" in Spring & Summer 1974, well before November.I didn't know that.

[Grinnygog]

What about LADY FROM THE MOUNTAIN? I always thought that was one of them, especially since it's referenced in SORCERER.

[Taurus19]

Not sure if this is it but it here's Kind of Woman:
http://rapidshare.com/files/363346212/01_Kind_of_Woman_Piano_Demo.m4a.html
Does the link work? Were you able to download?

If there are any other demos out there with her voice at that time, let me know! Love when she overlays her own vocals, too. AWESOME!!!

[mikebise]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhiannon_(song)

I post the above link because, aside from well-known info, it also mentions "Angel" as a Rhiannon song. Well, we all know anyone can put out wiki info, but this sticks in my mind for some reason. Like I had heard this before... This raise ears on anyone else?

"Lady From The Mountains" is an excellent possibility!

David, I have "Rhiannon" live from the Summer 1974 Buckingham Nicks Tour from Alabama. That's how it's listed. Perhaps it is mislabeled and is really from the short "farewell" B/Nicks Tour of 1975?

[SapphireSister]

If there are any other demos out there with her voice at that time, let me know! Love when she overlays her own vocals, too. AWESOME!!!
Yay it worked! I'm so glad you love it. I'll go through some cd's and see what else I can come up with. Nothing makes me happier than spreading the Stevie love to my fellow fans.

[Dark Angel]

The problem is, Stevie has changed her statement many times about what songs were for the Rhiannon project, and when they were started and ended. We know from Rolling Stone and other articles from the '78-'80 period that she was writing songs at that time for the project. 'Sorcerer' and 'Kind Of Woman' were written before she even knew of the Mabinogion books, so I honestly don't see how they would fit in...even though she said in the interview that 'Sorcerer' was one of the songs. Perhaps she decided to add it to the original songs after redoing it for TISL. :shrug:
Also, at the Indianapolis 1986 concert she told the audience that she'd just written the last Rhiannon song the night before the concert.

[mikebise]

This I can (sorta) confirm!!!!

In 1997, a guy I met online told me about knowing Stevie through business/whatever/blah blah blah. Anyway, he said that in 1986, Stevie wrote a Rhiannon song called:

"Legend of The Song of The Birds of Rhiannon"

Not to be confused with "The Maker of Birds" or other songs, but a (then) brand new 1986 Rhiannon song!

[Sanne2]

"Legend of The Song of The Birds of Rhiannon"


Lol, that's a horrible title!

[PenguinHead]

Lol, that's a horrible title!

It doesn't exactly roll of the tongue, does it? lol
Don't be naive to give this much creedence as an actual song title, it's just hearsay. There's alot of bullsh*t that passes as fact.

[vermicious knid]

David, I have "Rhiannon" live from the Summer 1974 Buckingham Nicks Tour from Alabama. That's how it's listed. Perhaps it is mislabeled and is really from the short "farewell" B/Nicks Tour of 1975?

The two-date Alabama thing occured in January 1975. I think Stevie said something about asking Mick & co. if it was okay if they went and did them. And they announced to the crowd they were joining FM.

[vivfox]

These are the songs I have listed as the Rhiannon Songs:

1. Rhiannon
2. Forest Of The Black Roses
3. Sorceror
4. The Tower ( aka Goodbye Baby)
5. The 3 Birds of Rhiannon (aka Maker of the Birds)
6. Angel
7. Lady From The Mountain
8. Stay Away
9. Planets Of The Universe
10. The Legend Of The Song Of The Birds Of Rhiannon

I have made this list over the years from interviews with Stevie where she said these titles as being part of the Rhiannon songs.

[David]

David, I have "Rhiannon" live from the Summer 1974 Buckingham Nicks Tour from Alabama. That's how it's listed. Perhaps it is mislabeled and is really from the short "farewell" B/Nicks Tour of 1975?I thought those concert tracks were from Jan or Feb 1975, as you mention. Didn't Gary Hodges post those tracks on Nancy's message board? He's still around. Maybe he can provide us more information about them.

Stevie keeps changing the date or year of composition of "Rhiannon" & "Landslide," & it's maddening. But there's still something that's more solidly believable about that story she told in the Source radio show from 1980/81 of being stranded in Aspen in fall/winter of 1974 & writing those songs while Lindsey was out supporting a solo Don Everly tour. Of course, I didn't know until much later when Michelej1 here said that that tour was only a week long because it was such a failure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhiannon_(song)

I post the above link because, aside from well-known info, it also mentions "Angel" as a Rhiannon song. Well, we all know anyone can put out wiki info, but this sticks in my mind for some reason. Like I had heard this before... This raise ears on anyone else?I've only heard other fans link "Angel" with the Rhiannon project or song cycle. I've never heard Stevie do so. I think some fans go back to that Jim Ladd Innerview of 1979 in which Stevie says that there's a stanza in "Angel" that's from the story of Rhiannon. From that interview, these fans seem to have extrapolated the view that "Angel" is from the Rhiannon song cycle. It might be, but the 1979 Innerview seems a weak basis for that conclusion because Stevie's explanations are taken out of context.

[David]

These are the songs I have listed as the Rhiannon Songs:

1. Rhiannon
2. Forest Of The Black Roses
3. Sorceror
4. The Tower ( aka Goodbye Baby)
5. The 3 Birds of Rhiannon (aka Maker of the Birds)
6. Angel
7. Lady From The Mountain
8. Stay Away
9. Planets Of The Universe
10. The Legend Of The Song Of The Birds Of Rhiannon

I have made this list over the years from interviews with Stevie where she said these titles as being part of the Rhiannon songs.In which interview did Stevie say that "Angel" was part of the Rhiannon cycle? I must have missed it.

[SapphireSister]

I'll get the ball rolling by starting with the known songs for the project. Demoed in Early 1978 were the following songs intended for the album:

"Rhiannon"
"Forsaken Love"
"Forest of The Black Roses"
"The Maker of Birds" (Stevie's copyrighted title, not "Three Birds of Rhiannon")


I don't know if this helps but I have a CD labeled Rhiannon Master Sessions 3-29-78. Here is the description:
Three beautiful takes of Rhiannon from the March 29, 1978 master reel to reel. These demos are piano & vocal only. The first track is labeled as a "complete" mix, the second as an "edit," and the third is labeled "master, better at end," but is more like an instrumental mix, since Stevie's vocals are barely audible. Each version is slightly over 13 minutes long, and the vocal on the first two tracks is crystal clear and beautiful.

Could these be from master reel we are talking about?

[mikebise]

Yes, that is one of the "Rhiannon" Master Reels. Another of the Reels has "Rhiannon", "Forsaken Love" and "Blue Water". Another has 4 versions, all different, of "Forsaken Love".

I was just about to start work on editing those 13-minute versions. Actually, the first of those 13-minute tracks contains two different piano versions each of "Rhiannon". Then, the next 13-minute track is the same 2 versions, but with overdubbed keyboards, in addition to just Stevie's piano. I'm sure David knows what kinds of keyboards are also being played. Stevie talks about adding more keyboards, "Christine can do it. Or someone can do it!"

The third "dim" one where Stevie can barely be heard must be for the studio in mixing the overdubbed keyboards. You can almost "hear" the keyboard player trying to follow Stevie and the song, flourishing the notes here and there.

[Dark Angel]

Have been going through reels. I think this is the one Mike's talking about(?)

Reel #44 (Music Film Score)
Blue Water/Rhiannon/2 versions of Mistaken Love (Forsaken Love).

There's also a reel of Mistaken Love with a piano demo clip of Beautiful Child. Then there the 'Screen Gems' reel which has the following:
SOTM (which Stevie states she may use for a project)/After The Glitter Fades/Kind of Woman/Goodbye Baby (originally label as 'The Glass Blower')/POTU/Leather and Lace (solo)/Think About It/Smile At You/Sleeping Angel (Real Love Affairs)/If You Ever Did Believe.

Another reel with 'Blue Water' also includes the following: Cecilia/Still Of The Night/Rhiannon/Mistaken Love.
There's also a one of Maureen 'mystery box' tapes with the following: IYEDB/Rhiannon/Maker of The Birds/Forest Of The Black Roses/POTU/Castaway/Kind Of Woman.

[Taurus19]

Have been going through reels. I think this is the one Mike's talking about(?)

Reel #44 (Music Film Score)
Blue Water/Rhiannon/2 versions of Mistaken Love (Forsaken Love).

There's also a reel of Mistaken Love with a piano demo clip of Beautiful Child. Then there the 'Screen Gems' reel which has the following:
SOTM (which Stevie states she may use for a project)/After The Glitter Fades/Kind of Woman/Goodbye Baby (originally label as 'The Glass Blower')/POTU/Leather and Lace (solo)/Think About It/Smile At You/Sleeping Angel (Real Love Affairs)/If You Ever Did Believe.

Another reel with 'Blue Water' also includes the following: Cecilia/Still Of The Night/Rhiannon/Mistaken Love.
There's also a one of Maureen 'mystery box' tapes with the following: IYEDB/Rhiannon/Maker of The Birds/Forest Of The Black Roses/POTU/Castaway/Kind Of Woman.

Wow--these sound amazing. Is SOTM the 4:51 version? Is Sleeping Angel the 4:12 version? Is Rhiannon the "talking demo" version? ("Isn't Rhiannon a beautiful name?")

Do you have the Rhiannon versions from the Rhiannon reels to share?

[Dark Angel]

SOTM is the 5:37 version (counting talking) and Sleeping Angel is 4:02. I'm not sure about Rhiannon. I'll post the Rhiannon reel later tonight.

Wow--these sound amazing. Is SOTM the 4:51 version? Is Sleeping Angel the 4:12 version? Is Rhiannon the "talking demo" version? ("Isn't Rhiannon a beautiful name?")

Do you have the Rhiannon versions from the Rhiannon reels to share?

[Dark Angel]

Here's the Rhiannon reel.
http://www.mediafire.com/?gcjndn1diei

[Christopher]

Have been going through reels. I think this is the one Mike's talking about(?)

Reel #44 (Music Film Score)
Blue Water/Rhiannon/2 versions of Mistaken Love (Forsaken Love).

There's also a reel of Mistaken Love with a piano demo clip of Beautiful Child. Then there the 'Screen Gems' reel which has the following:
SOTM (which Stevie states she may use for a project)/After The Glitter Fades/Kind of Woman/Goodbye Baby (originally label as 'The Glass Blower')/POTU/Leather and Lace (solo)/Think About It/Smile At You/Sleeping Angel (Real Love Affairs)/If You Ever Did Believe.

Another reel with 'Blue Water' also includes the following: Cecilia/Still Of The Night/Rhiannon/Mistaken Love.
There's also a one of Maureen 'mystery box' tapes with the following: IYEDB/Rhiannon/Maker of The Birds/Forest Of The Black Roses/POTU/Castaway/Kind Of Woman.

Dark Angel, Did you post Reel #44 & the Screen Gems reel, Did I miss this?>If so would you mind reposting?

[Christopher]

Here's the Rhiannon reel.
http://www.mediafire.com/?gcjndn1diei

Thanks:) I have not heard these, I thought I had, they sound amazing!

[Nikolaj]

What are your opinions of 'Mistaken Love'?? About 13 years ago I heard a cassette that had ( I think) four versions of it, and I just lost patience, and I think wound up thinking the song wasn't very good after listening a couple times back then, and haven't tried to find the various versions since. 'Castaway' didn't do a lot for me, either, though I did enjoy the 'Shut Up, Sharon' near the start of one. Sometimes, several long unedited demos have ruined songs for me, other times I've enjoyed the process. But to the dude here who (I think) said he is sorting through four 13 minute demos of 'Mistaken'...
You're a very loyal SN fan and a real asset to The Ledge community!

[Sanne2]

What are your opinions of 'Mistaken Love'?? About 13 years ago I heard a cassette that had ( I think) four versions of it, and I just lost patience, and I think wound up thinking the song wasn't very good after listening a couple times back then, and haven't tried to find the various versions since. 'Castaway' didn't do a lot for me, either, though I did enjoy the 'Shut Up, Sharon' near the start of one. Sometimes, several long unedited demos have ruined songs for me, other times I've enjoyed the process. But to the dude here who (I think) said he is sorting through four 13 minute demos of 'Mistaken'...
You're a very loyal SN fan and a real asset to The Ledge community!

The Mistaken/Forsaken Love version with Sharon is one of my all time favourite unreleased Stevie demos.
The lyrics, the harmonies, I just think it's brilliant, love it.

[Dark Angel]

I actually posted those awhile back on a different thread. Here you go. :)
Reel #44
http://www.mediafire.com/?inikaw3eyn3

Gems
http://www.mediafire.com/?yqkwqymmxnz

Dark Angel, Did you post Reel #44 & the Screen Gems reel, Did I miss this?>If so would you mind reposting?

[Aussie W/Heart]

Hi Dark Angel, Thanks for sharing #44 & Gems, after I downloaded both files I noticed it was a zip file, how do I carry the files or open files over to itunes:sorry::shrug: I have no idea, would someone mind helping .. Thanks so much.

[Christopher]

Awesome...Thank You!!

[SuiteShangriLa]

Hi Dark Angel, Thanks for sharing #44 & Gems, after I downloaded both files I noticed it was a zip file, how do I carry the files or open files over to itunes:sorry::shrug: I have no idea, would someone mind helping .. Thanks so much.

copy and paste the files to your music folder then you should be able to right click and open with itunes. then you should be able to go back and delete the d/l documents and keep them as msic files

[seekerj]

I thought those concert tracks were from Jan or Feb 1975, as you mention. Didn't Gary Hodges post those tracks on Nancy's message board? He's still around. Maybe he can provide us more information about them.

Stevie keeps changing the date or year of composition of "Rhiannon" & "Landslide," & it's maddening. But there's still something that's more solidly believable about that story she told in the Source radio show from 1980/81 of being stranded in Aspen in fall/winter of 1974 & writing those songs while Lindsey was out supporting a solo Don Everly tour. Of course, I didn't know until much later when Michelej1 here said that that tour was only a week long because it was such a failure.

I've only heard other fans link "Angel" with the Rhiannon project or song cycle. I've never heard Stevie do so. I think some fans go back to that Jim Ladd Innerview of 1979 in which Stevie says that there's a stanza in "Angel" that's from the story of Rhiannon. From that interview, these fans seem to have extrapolated the view that "Angel" is from the Rhiannon song cycle. It might be, but the 1979 Innerview seems a weak basis for that conclusion because Stevie's explanations are taken out of context.

What exactly? What makes that more solidly believable ?

[David]

What are your opinions of 'Mistaken Love'?? I always found it really boring & really pretentious -- very phony.

[Taurus19]

Here's the Rhiannon reel.
http://www.mediafire.com/?gcjndn1diei

I didn't even know these existed. Thank you, Dark Angel! For that version of SOTM, too!

[SapphireSister]

I always found it really boring & really pretentious -- very phony.
Just stay there high atop your pony David cause' you're phony! :xoxo:

[David]

Just stay there high atop your pony David cause' you're phony! :xoxo:
Ooh, I like that song. That's "Bella Donna" -- always one of my favorites.

[Troddew]

Not sure if this is it but it here's Kind of Woman:
http://rapidshare.com/files/363346212/01_Kind_of_Woman_Piano_Demo.m4a.html
Does the link work? Were you able to download?

No it sez limit exceeded

[Ghost_Tracker]

Since we started talking about the Rhiannon album project and its offshoots on the demo timeline thread, it looks like time to start a new one dedicated to Stevie's project based on the Welsh goddess.

This includes all the various mentions Stevie has made over the decades about the project: the album, the movie, the ballet, the Lord of The Rings type project she alluded to in 2007, etc.

I'll get the ball rolling by starting with the known songs for the project.

"Stay Away" ~ Circulated by Maureen Loftus in 1998, "Stay Away" mentions the Birds of Rhiannon and seems to be a song for this project. It sounds like it's from 1978 as well.

.


I've seen the lyrics to "Stay Away" and I think they're just amazing.
That song is freakin' PRIMAL! :nod:

[mikebise]

If you haven't downloaded "Stay Away", there's a link to the song on the "Demos/Live Request" thread!

[SapphireSister]

No it sez limit exceeded
Darn! Will re-upload with everything else tomorrow so look for it then.

[mikebise]

Bumped for Sorcerer99...

The Maker Of Birds
Forsaken Love
Kind Of Woman
Rhiannon
Forest Of The Black Roses
Stay Away
Planets Of The Universe
Angel
Lady From The Mountains
Goodbye Baby
Sorcerer
Blue Water
Legend Of The Song Of The Birds Of Rhiannon

[sorcerer999]

Bumped for Sorcerer99...

The Maker Of Birds
Forsaken Love
Kind Of Woman
Rhiannon
Forest Of The Black Roses
Stay Away
Planets Of The Universe
Angel
Lady From The Mountains
Goodbye Baby
Sorcerer
Blue Water
Legend Of The Song Of The Birds Of Rhiannon

Thank you Mike!