Thoughts on the Afterlife, ghosts, and spirits. [Archive]

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fringed n fab

01-12-2010, 05:48 AM

First off I always want to stress to everyone I am not nuts. And I am not gullible and stupid to believe everything I see, read, and hear. But I've always looked to my gut instinct about things before believing them and just going with what I feel in my heart is right, what feels right. And everyone should too I think. I also believe our conscience is just our direct line to God really and to pay attention to it. I had talked about some of this before on Seven Wonders so instead of rewriting everything I'll just pull from there and post. It's hard to just dive into the middle without having explaining a beginning or end to the topics at hand so I tried giving as much detail as I could without people having to go read the books I'd read. I just happened to pick one up one day my brother had ordered and after flipping through a few pages, I got fascinated and couldn't put it back down. It was a book by Sylvia Browne called Temples on the Other Side. And I started reading more of her books after that and listening to things she never had the time to discuss really on Montel. Whether people believe her or not, or like her or hate her, I feel she's on to things we can't explain and I feel she makes some sense about it really. These are just excerpts of some of the things I've read. I couldn't possibly write about them all without having to post the entire books.

Ok I'm going out on a far limb here, and using some of this 7W's downtime to discuss some of the things I've read about in a few books by Sylvia Browne. I hadn't picked up and read a full book in probably 20 years, but here recently I've been checking out a few of Sylvia's books and I've finished three in the last few weeks... It's like once you get started reading, you can't put a book of hers down. Now I know some people may have their doubts about her, but I've always happened to believe most of what she says or tries to discuss. For more and more people, a lot of the stuff she talks about just seems to make perfect sense. She's always telling people to just go with your gut instinct about things. She's said before she's human, and how over the years she's made a flub here and there about people, but she's stressed how she wouldn't have lasted over 50 years in the psychic business if she wasn't right more times than she was wrong. For those who are unaware, Sylvia is a world-famous psychic and clairaudient which means she's able to "talk" to her spirit guide from the Other Side. She calls her "Francine" and she's been with Sylvia all her life, even though Sylvia first "heard" her when she was 7 years old... However, she can't bear to listen to Francine directly for very long because Francine's voice comes into her right ear and sounds more like an annoying version of Alvin and the Chipmunks, with it's very high pitch. Sylvia explains the reason for this is, Heaven exists on a higher frequency level, than Earth does. I had watched Sylvia on tv shows over the years and her reading for people, but it wasn't until I started reading her books that I found she had so much more to discuss about the paranormal. She says in over 50 years of being a psychic medium, she's noticed a bigger increase in just the last few years, of public interest and people coming forward asking their questions and looking for answers. Some of the things I want to touch on that I've read in her books, is how Heaven isn't some far off place, way up in the sky somewhere, that the Other Side and it's dimension actually resides just three feet off of our earthly ground level. We just can't "see it" because it's on a much higher frequency level than us here. And of how beautiful everything is over there and how everything that is beautiful to us down here, our oceans and mountains, canyons and streams, to our beautiful spaces, they all exist over on the Other Side, because everything that we know down here as being beautiful, existed on the Other Side first. Sylvia talks in her books about how we all, when we die, we're all 30 years old on the Other Side. Every one of us. That no matter what age, young or old, when we die, we'll notice as we're passing through the tunnel of light, how we're switching to 30 years of age. Sylvia says she's asked Francine for years, "Well why 30?" And everytime Francine will reply "Because we just are". And how we are spirits on the Other Side, but we have solid physical bodies over there, that don't require food, drink, or sleep any longer like down here on Earth. And we use our minds at 100% capacity on the Other Side, unlike here on Earth where we only use a small fraction. And we can bi-locate or tri-locate anywhere, just by thinking ourselves there. I had just finished a book of Sylvia's the other day, "Visits from the Afterlife-The Truth About Hauntings, Spirits, and Reunions with Lost Loved Ones" and in it she talks of how you can tell the difference between a spirit visiting you from Home, and a ghost. Spirits when we see them tend to appear "floating" when actually they're just walking along their ground level at Home, which is three feet above ours here. Ghosts on the other hand, are stuck between dimensions, so they're neither "here nor there" and will usually appear to be trotting along on our same ground level. Ghosts, she says, for whatever reasons of their own, refuse to move toward the light and are stuck here until they make it through. She says some simply choose to "hang around" while others stay for a loved ones protection (down here) or some are just scared and confused. But eventually, loved ones will come for them on the Other Side and help them over. Now I know some on here are thinking I've lost all marbles and I'm officially nuts, but a lot of the stuff Sylvia talks about, it simply makes some kind of perfect sense to me. I have always thought of myself as a Non-denominational Christian and a spiritual person, so it's not like I've sat around in darkened rooms reading up on scary books or the paranormal, with candles lit. I just happened to pick up a book of Sylvia's about a year ago, "Temples On The Other Side" and after flipping through the first couple pages, I couldn't put it down. While I don't always agree with some of her views on Christ, and Christianity, (I believe a lot, like most people, in the Bible's teachings) but granted, I have my own issues with some of that, like I'm sure some do. But anyway, I believe in about 98% of the things Sylvia has to say, regarding death and spirits, and the afterlife. To me, and a growing number of others, some of this stuff just makes sense. Here's an excerpt from "Temples on the Other Side".

Chapter One The Temple of Orientation

One of the things I love about being a Gnostic is that we're constantly finding and receiving fresh information and learning about new things. For example, I've always put forth that when we cross over to the Other Side, one of the first things we do is go to the Hall of Wisdom. Well, Francine has informed me of a slight change: Before we visit that particular building, we actually go into the Temple of Orientation.

Going through these first few halls helps us get accustomed to being back Home. My spirit guide says that the only ones who don't seem to need this process are the entities who die very young (before the age of six) because they were on the Other Side so recently that they have total recall. The longer we're incarnated on Earth, however, the more we need a full orientation. Even more important, we find that although we want to get "back in the groove" as quickly as possible, we're not really able to do so on our own.

You know how it is when you've been on a long trip and can be overwhelmed with what to do first when you get back: Do you unpack, water the plants, call your family, do the laundry, or just collapse into bed? Thankfully, on the Other Side it's all laid out for you in a well-organized plan. And everything does come back to you fairly quickly. It's much like when I traveled back to my hometown of Kansas City, Missouri, to visit my loved ones. It had been many, many years since I had been there, so I thought, How will I get from the Plaza to my house? But as my son and I drove down the streets, it almost immediately unfolded right before me. All of a sudden, it was, "Oh, I remember! Take Rock Hill Road to Gillam. Now go up Charlotte."

So you can see that getting around on the Other Side would be even more familiar, since you've spent an eternity there. It brings about a feeling of touching base: "Of course ... this is my Home. I've lived here for an eternity and was just away for a while."

The Temple of Orientation glows with a soft and beautiful white light (much like the tunnel we pass through to get to and from the Other Side) and is Romanesque in design, yet it's not as ornate as you'll find some of the other halls to be. It also isn't very elaborate inside; in fact, you might even say that it's somewhat spartanly furnished compared to the other buildings we'll be exploring in this book. Its furnishings reflect its purpose-everything is all business, for this temple's very important purpose is to lessen the trauma suffered by all souls going in and out of life.

There are two large sets of double doors in the front of this edifice: one with the word Incoming above it and the other with the word Outgoing. Both sets lead to the main portion of the temple, which is very large and divided into two distinct sections: again, one for incoming souls and one for outgoing souls. From Francine's description of this central space, it seems to me that each area is like a type of auditorium, with many seats and several aisles; however, there are also small cubicles lining all sides.

If you're an incoming soul, you sit down with your guide until a counselor (orientator) comes to escort you to one of the cubicles. While you're waiting, you might notice a huge board with blinking and solid red and green lights on the wall facing you. This board is actually an indicator of incoming souls who have either passed or are close to passing: A blinking red light means that a soul is about to pass, while a solid green light notes that a soul has indeed passed over just moments ago. You might even notice your name and that the green light next to it is solid.

While the Temple of Orientation is always full, amazingly there's plenty of room for everyone, along with enough orientators to meet everyone's needs rapidly and efficiently. So your counselor quickly appears to escort you to a cubicle, where he or she, your guide, and you all sit down in utter privacy. Your orientator begins to talk softly to you, answering any questions you might have and reminding you that you're safe and back Home. You may still be somewhat disoriented, but memories are flooding back to you of the life you just lived and how you died. (Only a few of those who pass don't remember such details at this point.)

The counselor assures you of many things: "Yes, you did complete what you needed to learn," "No, you didn't go too soon," "Your family on Earth is all right," as well as anything else to make you more comfortable and relaxed, thus orienting you back Home. He or she knows that you may still be tied to your just-passed life and have some disorientation or confusion, thus explaining, "Remember that you'll now go to the Hall of Wisdom. You've done a good job, and it's good to have you back Home."

You find that you're much more relaxed, and the first wonderful rays of realization that you're truly Home begin to form. You suddenly feel an overpowering love that is permeating your being, and you remember that this is the love of God (which we all feel on the Other Side), which is so much more powerful than any earthly sensation. It's so magnificent-almost overpowering-and it fills your soul with such compassion that it practically shouts, "In you I am pleased!" All the last vestiges of stress and anxiety about leaving life fade away and are put to rest. You see again how young you are and how good you feel. Your body seems so much lighter, as all the gravity and heaviness of your earthly shell is gone, much like the contrast of coming out of a swimming pool and becoming aware of how heavy your body truly is.

I think it's important to mention here that the counselors who work in the Temple of Orientation have to study long and hard to prepare for this role so that they can help with an individual's chart (this is the life plan every human being plots out before incarnating on Earth). Outgoing souls have their charts pretty much set when they go to the Temple of Orientation, but counselors give them tools to help them get through it and remind them to rely on their angels; guides; and, of course, the Mother and Father God.

The orientators usually perform counseling as their only vocation because there are always souls coming in and out. What they do is crucial, for they not only have to be experts in all kinds of therapy, but they also have to know about the nuances of life and how they can affect a soul. They have to be able to pick up signs of any problems through body language, speech, behavior, or what have you. They're also the ones who decide if a soul needs to be cocooned because of trauma (I'll talk more about this later on).

While the Temple of Orientation is ever ready to help any outgoing or incoming soul, Francine says that almost all those coming in are arriving from their last lives on Earth. So are these counselors in danger of losing their jobs? Never, for there will continue to be some souls who want to go to other planets. All of these orientators can also become teachers.

***

After Francine described this hall in a trance in our salon, several attendees remarked, "I've seen that place!" One woman said that she knew she was a counselor. Yes, counselors or orientators do incarnate because the experience gives them a greater understanding about life on Earth and the various charts that people can create for themselves.

Another lady later told me over the phone that she'd had a dream that was akin to an astral state (which it actually was) where she was in a cubicle with low glowing lights, and a beautiful entity was explaining what she'd gone through and why. Francine says that she had definitely been in the Temple of Orientation, where she'd received some counseling.

I also had a man basically report the same thing to me, but he added that he remembered being advised about going in to life. He remembered the counselor holding a scroll and reading off what he called "significant bullet points" about his upcoming life: He'd have a hard entrance and a predilection for drug addiction; and he wouldn't get married until he was 30, after which he'd lose his first baby but then have a little girl. He said that the counselor had gone on and on, but he didn't remember the rest. Then he told me that in this incarnation he had indeed been a premature baby and almost died; had a bad bout with drugs in his teens; got married in his early 30s; and watched helplessly while he and his wife lost their first baby at the age of eight months ... only to have a little boy (the only difference, it would seem) a short while later. The man said that he so wished he could remember the rest of what his counselor had told him, but I don't think he was supposed to know anything else.

Speaking of outgoing souls, after meeting with their orientators, those who are about to incarnate then go into a state of seclusion with an angel known as a "Virtue" (which I'll talk about later in this book). After that contemplative period, they're led to a glass room that's beautifully scented and illuminated by a soft purple light that then turns blue. Outgoing souls don't stay long in this room before they literally become infants, as their bodies change from those of 30-year-olds to those of newborns. This is done so that the souls can acclimate to the tiny vehicles they'll have when they come out of their mothers' wombs on Earth.

As outgoing souls are helped into waiting wombs, they begin to lose most of their conscious knowledge in the process. This happens because if they could clearly recall what the Other Side was like and what they've chosen for themselves, their test of learning would be minimized and not be as effective. Yet there's almost always some knowledge that leaks through to a degree, which explains why so many young boys and girls distinctly describe past lives or what it's like on the Other Side.

For example, when my granddaughter, Angelia, was four, she came to me and said, "Bagdah [her nickname for me], I was in this lovely place with lights and I saw all these babies who were leaving. I wanted to go in, but a pretty lady [her guide, Ariel] said, 'You can't go in there because those are souls getting ready to go into life.'" Angelia was very upset because she wanted to go into the room and play with the babies, but I let her know exactly what she'd seen. If we explain such things rationally to children, they'll understand because they've been to the Other Side so recently themselves.

Cocooning

Regardless of how we died, as I said earlier, most of us do make it to the Other Side. However, some who come over don't immediately go through the orientation process and are instead "cocooned." You see, if they've suffered extremely violent passings, some souls may become traumatized in the process, so the orientators will wrap them in warm blankets and place them in cubicles with comforting music or even soothing lights and colors. It's almost like being back in the womb but still on the Other Side. Extreme cases may be put into a deep sleep, almost like a coma, during which the orientators will deprogram the trauma incurred and give these individuals' minds some intense healing.

Most entities who are cocooned are only in that state for a month or so, but the extreme cases can be kept as such for a year or more. (Of course there's no time on the Other Side, so I'm referring to this according to our calendar.) I'm convinced that's why people often tell me that they haven't heard from passed-over loved ones who experienced a horrible demise. Interestingly, my father didn't contact me for ten months after he passed, much to my aggravation. His was not a terrible death, but Francine said that since he and I were so close, he may have carried so much grief over with him that they cocooned him. I often wish they could cocoon us down here when we're faced with the raw, dragonlike grief of losing a loved one.

fringed n fab

01-12-2010, 05:58 AM

Excerpt from Visits from the Afterlife- Sylvia Browne (I just read)

Introduction

Thousands of people, many of them currently on earth, contributed to this book. There are the spirits and ghosts around the world who've been kind enough to show up and tell me their stories for the last half a century or so. There are the 2,014 visitors to my Web site who had the courage and generosity to e-mail their experiences to me, some of which you'll find in the pages that follow-and let me make it clear right now, I read every single one of those e-mails. Those 2,014 brave people were on the receiving end of some fascinating appearances by spirits and ghosts, some of them deeply comforting and some of them terrifying. There's a victim of an unsolved murder who told me the name of her killer, and there's a Spirit Guide who left her voice on an audiotape, repeating a single word that gave a woman the key to her husband's criminal life. There's a woman who was given strength by a visit with an ex-boyfriend on The Other Side who she didn't know had passed away, and a man who would never have found out he had a stillborn baby sister if her spirit hadn't come to introduce herself when he was four years old.

To the thousands of us collaborators on this particular book, and the many millions who don't question any more than we do that of course there's an afterlife, there are those who will always be ready with a list of handy explanations for what we "think" we're seeing, hearing, and feeling. "Grief hysteria," "oxygen deprivation," and variations on terms for both "mental illness" and "scam" are among the most popular. What these skeptics and "experts" are usually insisting on, though, is the same cynical demand, over and over and over again, which boils down to:

"Prove that there's life after death."

I'm sixty-six years old, and I've never spent one instant doubting that there's life after death. The thousands of us who contributed to this book, on earth and beyond it, don't doubt it. The millions we represent don't doubt it. God certainly doesn't doubt it, since He's the One who told us it's true in the first place, and we take His word for everything. We're not the ones who are having a problem with this. You are. So why do we keep knocking ourselves out trying to prove something we already know with absolute certainty?

Here's my suggestion to the skeptics and "experts," for a refreshing change of pace. We're done proving that there's life after death. We've proven it well past our own satisfaction. From now on, let's do it this way: You prove that there's not.

Chapter One

THE TRUTH ABOUT
GHOSTS AND SPIRITS

I believe in ghosts, and in the real and magnificent presence of spirits among us from The Other Side.

I believe because, like so many of you, I've seen them, heard them, been startled by them, even smelled the faint familiar fragrance of a lost loved one, urging me to notice, to embrace their assurance that they're not gone at all, they're right here, not some trick of my imagination or wishful thinking, if I'll just open my eyes, ears, mind, and heart and pay attention.

I believe because, surrounded by so much overwhelming evidence of their existence during my sixty-six years on this earth, I'd be insane not to believe.

Most of all, I believe because I know to the core of my being that the majority of the world's great religions are right-we are all eternal, every one of us, as our birthright from God who created us. Our spirits always were and always will be. Our physical bodies are only temporary housing for the essence of who we are, that divine part of us that feels joy and sorrow and love and reverence and holds our truth and our timeless memories and our wisdom intact. Death will take our bodies sooner or later, but it can never, ever destroy us. God promised us everlasting lives, and He doesn't break His promises.

And it's precisely because I take God at His word that I can't imagine not believing in the existence of ghosts and spirits among us. If our spirits really do transcend death, if they're immortal as we know they are, that means they never cease to exist. So why on earth would we disbelieve the existence of something we agree never ceases to exist? In fact, why not recognize that the presence of ghosts, and of spirits from Home, is actually comforting, even worthy of celebration, proving as it does that eternal life is a beautiful, sacred, God-given certainty?

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that the unexpected appearance of a ghost or a spirit can't be scary. You'll read stories throughout the book in which many of you have been frightened, and I'll openly admit to moments of fear during my own stories as well. Some combination of surprise, a cultural insistence that anyone who sees ghosts and spirits is either crazy or lying, and a lack of understanding of what's happening can add up to very real jolts of panic in even the most rational among us.

But please take my word for a few important truths about ghosts and spirits:

For one thing, knowledge really is power. The more I've learned and the more I continue to learn about the spirit world, the more my fear has been replaced by curiosity and fascination, and you'll find the same is true for you; I guarantee it.

For another thing, as so many of you are already aware, it's not just us psychics and other "weirdos" who routinely have perfectly valid encounters with ghosts and spirits. "Normal" people in every corner of every country on earth have come face to face with visitors from the afterlife. These people know what they've experienced, they know they're not crazy, they know the experience was real, and they don't need me or anyone else to validate it for them. And they'd agree with me on this, I'm sure. Just as any scientist would be a fool to get the same result from the same experiment over and over again and refuse to believe it, all of us who have seen, heard, and felt the presence of the spirit world would be just as foolish to refuse to believe what our five physical senses, our minds, and our hearts would swear to.

Finally, as momentarily frightened as I've been by some of my encounters with residents of the afterlife, I can assure you, I've never met a ghost or spirit who could do a fraction of the physical and emotional damage human beings can do. Give me a choice between a confrontation with the world's orneriest ghost or the world's most cunning human sociopath and I'll choose to take on the ghost every time. So while this journey into the spirit world we're about to take together will lead us into territory we might occasionally find scary and unnerving, don't spend one instant wondering whether or not you have enough courage to take the trip. You were brave enough to choose another lifetime as a human being on this rough, confusing, beautiful earth, which makes you brave enough to meet ghosts and spirits, especially since we've all been those ghosts and spirits before and will be again when this lifetime ends.

THE SPIRIT'S JOURNEY
AFTER DEATH

In order to understand what spirits and ghosts really are and where they come from, it's essential to understand what happens to our spirits when our physical bodies die. I've written about this in great detail in previous books, particularly Life on The Other Side, so rather than repeat myself at length, I'll limit this discussion to a few relevant specifics.

When the spirit leaves the body that's provided it with temporary housing for another visit to earth, there are basically three different places it might go. And make no mistake about it, which of those three places the spirit travels to is our decision, not God's. He never stops loving us, never turns away from us, and would never condemn any of us to an eternity of banishment from His presence. It's only when we stop loving Him and turn away from Him that we take such foolish chances with the health and well-being of our souls.

The vast majority of us, who love God by whatever name we call Him and try our best to honor His love while we're here, immediately transcend to The Other Side, that sacred, exquisite, perfect world we came from, where we live joyfully among the Angels, the messiahs, our Spirit Guides, our soul mates and loved ones from an eternity of lifetimes both on earth and at Home. Residents of The Other Side are called spirits, and their appearances in our midst on earth are called visitations.

A much smaller percentage of humankind, those dark, remorseless souls who choose evil over God, travel to an unspeakable unholy void called the Left Door, from which they horseshoe right back into an earthly womb, to be reborn into another Godless incarnation. The Dark Side, as we call those travelers through the Left Door, don't communicate with us or appear among us while they're in vitro.

And then there are those poor trapped souls who, for their own often confused reasons, refuse to acknowledge the very real tunnel leading to The Other Side, illuminated by God's brilliant white light, and remain earthbound. Earthbound souls are called ghosts, and their appearances in our midst are called hauntings.

Understanding the differences between spirits and ghosts, between visitations and hauntings, can help turn an unexpected encounter with the afterlife from frightening to comforting. It can help us tell an earthbound intruder from a beloved visitor from Home. It can answer questions about where a departed loved one went after leaving their body, how they are, and whether or not they're happy. And it can certainly give us fascinating glimpses into the possibilities that lie ahead for us when our current incarnations are complete.

But before I go into any further detail about the brilliant, complex spirit world we're about to explore, I want to address an issue that came up in several of the hundreds upon hundreds of letters my clients and readers were kind enough to send. Antonio, for example, wrote, in the midst of a description of coming face to face with a ghost in his house, "I was especially confused because I knew what I was looking at was absolutely real, but I'd been taught all my life that ghosts and spirits and things like that came from the devil and were to be dismissed." And after telling me about a really gorgeous visitation from her deceased father, Cynthia added, "I confided in my aunt about it, and she admitted that a lot of people in our family have had similar experiences, but she didn't want to talk about it because this sort of thing is evil and it's conspiring with the devil to believe in spirits."

If you know anything about me, you know that I'm passionate about my religion, Gnostic Christianity, and about religions throughout the world, which I've studied all my life. My faith in God is as essential to me as the air I breathe. It empowers me, comforts me, inspires me, sustains me, brings me joy, and diminishes my fears. There's not a doubt in my mind that God wants our reverent devotion to Him to come from adoration, not from intimidation or terror of His wrath, and there's also not a doubt in my mind that nothing He created is or ever could be evil. Evil is a creation of humankind, not of God. Since God, not some mythical devil, created us with souls that are eternal, and ghosts and spirits are manifestations of those eternal souls, the illogic of equating the spirit world with evil really mystifies me.

In fact, depending on which of the twenty-six versions of the Bible you read, Jesus Himself appeared on earth in spirit form between six and ten times after He ascended. Paul's first letter to the Corinthians, for example, in the Revised Standard Edition, Chapter 15, verses 3-8, reads, "... that Christ died for our sins ..., that He was buried, that He was raised on the third day ..., and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time.... Then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles.... He appeared also to me." With these and other Biblical accounts of the earthly appearances of a Spirit who had very definitely transcended to The Other Side, how and why would someone get the idea that encounters between humankind and the afterlife are evil? I'm certainly not about to give credit to a supposed "devil" for Christ's visitations to this world after His crucifixion, are you?

So, please, whatever your beliefs, whatever you've been taught, whatever you're told, by me or by anyone else, don't accept anything as truth that doesn't make sense in your heart. Just because we don't understand something, or something frightens us, doesn't make it "evil." Think. Learn. Knowledge really is power, don't ever doubt that.

All that having been said, and thanks for letting me get it out of my system, let's explore the worlds of spirits and ghosts who, by their very presence among us, prove our God-given eternity to be an absolute, indisputable fact.

SPIRITS

As I mentioned earlier, when our bodies die, most of us experience the brilliantly lit tunnel, not descending from some faraway place in the sky but actually rising from our own bodies and leading much more "across" than "up," at about a twenty- or thirty-degree angle. We travel with gorgeous, weightless freedom through this almost sideways tunnel, never for one instant feeling as if we've died but instead feeling more thrillingly alive than we could ever imagine here on earth. All our worries, frustrations, anger, resentment, and other negativity melt away, replaced by the peace and all-loving, unconditional understanding we remember and are about to reunite with at Home. God's sacred white light waits to embrace us at the end of the tunnel, along with loved ones from every lifetime we've ever lived. Even our pets from every lifetime are there to greet us, so eager with the joy of seeing us that the human spirits have to wait their turn to get to us. And once we've arrived on The Other Side, we resume the busy, active, exquisite lives we temporarily left behind to further our spiritual education in the tough school earth provides.

There's a simple, logical reason that the legendary tunnel takes us more "across" than "up"-our destination, The Other Side, that paradise for which we're Homesick from the moment we leave it until we return, is another dimension located a mere three feet above earth's ground level. This very real, idyllically beautiful place exists at a much higher vibrational frequency than we do here, which is why we don't perceive our intimate proximity to it, any more than the normal human ear can hear the extremely high-frequency pitch of a dog whistle. If you've had encounters with spirits from The Other Side, or talked to or read accounts from those who have, you've noticed that very often the descriptions include the impression that the spirits were "floating" a few feet above the ground. While that's often exactly what it looks like through our eyes, what's really happening is that the spirits are simply moving on their ground level at Home, three feet higher than ours.

To truly understand how to recognize a spirit visitation, and how to distinguish it from other experiences with the afterlife, you have to keep in mind that by the time they've come back to say hello and let us know they're still very much alive, they've already transcended to and been living in a place of emotional and spiritual bliss, not to mention perfect physical health. Any unhappiness they experienced during their latest lifetime on earth, any negativity they carried around, any illnesses or infirmities or injuries they suffered, have all been resolved. What that means is that any entity we encounter who seems to be sad or angry or mean or negative in any way, or who shows any signs of wounds or pain or disease, is something other than a spirit from The Other Side. What it also means, by the way, is that we never need to spend a moment wondering if our deceased loved ones at Home are well and happy. In the blessed perfection of Home, they can't possibly be anything less.

Spirits at Home live in a world unobstructed by our earthly limitations, so there are qualities about them that set them apart from any other kinds of visitors. Because their minds and thoughts are so powerful they can communicate brilliantly with each other, and with us on earth, through the use of telepathy-the immediate transference of information from one entity to another without the use of any of the five physical senses. One of the most common observations you'll hear from people who've had visitations from spirits is that the spirit talked to them without using words or even making a sound.

Another talent spirits have that we'll often experience from them, and that we have to look forward to when we're spirits again, is that they can bi-locate, i.e., be in two places at the same time. It's not unusual for family members or others who were close to a deceased loved one to receive simultaneous visits from that loved one on opposite sides of town or opposite sides of the world, with both visits being completely real and completely unique.

Spirits are invariably eager for us to recognize exactly who they are, which means they'll either appear in a form that's familiar to us, they'll create a scent we'd associate with them, they'll offer a light touch to our hair or the back of our neck or our shoulder that was their habit during their lifetime, or they'll manipulate an object that will offer hints to their identity. They'll repeatedly move a framed photograph of themselves so that it's facing a different direction or lying flat on a table or dresser, play with the flame of a candle we've lit in their honor, superimpose their face on a painting or snapshot, rock their favorite rocking chair, play a music box they gave us-the possibilities are as limitless as the imaginations of our loved ones themselves, and all we have to do is be receptive and pay attention.

Because spirits have to cross back into our dimension in order to visit us, they often attach their energy to such powerful conductors as electricity and water in order to help with their "reentry." Eager to make their presence known, they'll create bizarre behavior in TVs, appliances, telephones, and other objects and electrical devices, and they're especially active between the hours of 1:00 A.M. and 5:00 A.M., when the night air is at its dampest and the dew is at its heaviest. Please don't misunderstand should you experience your telephone chronically ringing with either no one or static on the other end when you answer, or your television set suddenly doing a full rotation of all its channels while its remote control sits idle on the coffee table. Your belongings are not "possessed," any more than they're "possessed" when you use them yourself. Instead, it's very possibly a spirit, simply manipulating something tangible that you'll be sure to notice, to say, "I'm right here, watching over you." (I'm too much of a realist not to add that the spirit world is hardly responsible for every malfunction around the house. Sometimes all you need is a good repairman.)

And speaking of "possessed," don't ever believe that a spirit from The Other Side, or any other entity from anywhere else, can possess you without your awareness and permission. I promise you, it's impossible, no matter how entertaining exorcist legends, books, and movies might be. As many of you know, I sometimes allow my Spirit Guide, Francine, to occupy my body for short periods of time. It's a matter of pure practicality, and another distinguishing characteristic of spirit visitations-because of the significant difference between The Other Side's vibrational frequency and ours here on earth, Francine's voice, like all other spirits' voices, sounds to our ears like an audiotape played at fast-forward speed. Frankly, it's annoying, hard to understand when you're not accustomed to it, and probably why the majority of spirits communicate telepathically. But when Francine has a lot of information to share, rather than put myself and everyone else through what might resemble a performance by one of the Chipmunks, I'll essentially "step aside" through trance and allow Francine to use my body, or more specifically my vocal cords, for the duration of what she has to say. Without my knowledge, permission, and cooperation, it couldn't happen. Should you hear a high-pitched, tinny, rather distant voice that seems to be coming from out of nowhere, though, as I know so many of you have, you can count on it that someone from Home has stopped by to say hello.

Finally, just as spirits from The Other Side are incapable of negative thoughts and actions, they're also incapable of visiting us for anything but the most positive of reasons. Even though it can be startling to see or hear them when you're not accustomed to it, spirit visitations are never intended to frighten or intimidate or threaten or chase us away. All they want is to love us, comfort us, reassure us that they've never really left us and never will, and most of all to try to prove to us by their very presence, no matter how subtle, that by God's grace, eternal life is a simple, sacred, indisputable fact.

GHOSTS

There is one tragic quality shared by every ghost in every corner of every country around the world: Not one of them has the slightest idea that they're dead. Unlike most spirits who, when their bodies die, eagerly proceed through the tunnel that will take them Home, ghosts turn away from the tunnel, refusing to acknowledge its existence for reasons of their own and, as a result, remain earthbound, desperately confused and lonely, often angry, sometimes aggressive and petulant, trapped in a futile effort to make sense of an existence that by definition makes no sense at all.

Of course, ghosts do leave their bodies like all of us do when our bodies stop functioning, and by leaving their bodies they also leave this earthly dimension. But by rejecting the tunnel and God's loving, healing white light on The Other Side, they don't transcend to the higher-frequency dimension of Home, either, which means that their spirits are left quite literally "neither here nor there." That fact alone makes them very different from spirits from The Other Side in a number of ways:

Living in neither earth's dimension nor the dimension of The Other Side, ghosts are typically more visible and distinct than spirits. I've used this analogy several times, but it seems effective enough that I'll unapologetically use it again: The easiest way to picture the three dimensions we're talking about-earth's dimension, ghosts' dimension, and the dimension of Home-is to visualize an electric fan. At its slowest speed, the fan's blades are well defined and easy to see. That represents the dimension on earth, the one we all function in and are accustomed to. At the fan's medium speed, the individual blades begin to blur into each other and are harder for our eyes to distinguish. That represents the dimension in which ghosts are trapped. Turn the fan to its highest speed and its blades seem to disappear completely, creating the illusion that the blades aren't there at all, as false an illusion as the idea that The Other Side and its resident spirits don't exist just because we can't readily see them. The fact that some people are able to see and hear ghosts and spirits while others aren't doesn't prove that some people are crazy while others aren't. It just proves that some people's physical senses are more finely tuned than others'.

Because they haven't yet experienced the love and healing of The Other Side, ghosts will bear visible signs of any injuries or illnesses or deformities that were present when their bodies died. You will never see a spirit from Home who's wounded or sick or in any kind of physical or emotional pain.

When spirits are among us, their ultimate motivation is their love for us, and their efforts to get us to notice them are meant to express that love. Ghosts, on the other hand, are much more complicated. Their reasons for turning away from the tunnel and refusing to accept the fact of their death on this earth are widely varied. Some stay behind out of a confused sense of deep loyalty to a loved one or a property or a job for which they felt responsible during their lifetime. Some stay behind for revenge. Some stay behind to search for or wait for a lost love. Some stay behind out of fear that God is too displeased with them to embrace them into the blessed joy of Home (which is impossible, by the way-He embraces all of us who let Him). Whatever their confused purpose for rejecting the truth that they're dead, they're among us out of a distorted sense of reality. The world through a ghost's eyes is locked in a time warp of their own disturbed creation. From their point of view, we are the intruders in their world, not the other way around. So we shouldn't be too surprised that in their encounters with us, they're sometimes angry, desperate, resentful, cranky, or annoying. Occasionally, when they realize that someone is seeing, hearing, or acknowledging them in any way, they can be appreciative and even playful, especially with children. But overall, like most unhappy, chronically disoriented beings, they can be unpredictable, not to mention depressing.

By not transcending to The Other Side, ghosts deprive themselves of the ability to bi-locate. There are no simultaneous appearances of a single ghost as there can be with a single spirit. In fact, by their own design, ghosts are usually too attached to whatever place they're frequenting to wander far away from it anyway.

Also, having not transcended, ghosts exist in our dimension, not in the dimension of Home three feet above our ground level on earth. That's why, while spirits appear to be "floating" as they move along the ground level of The Other Side, ghosts accurately appear to be functioning on exactly the same level we are.

As we discussed earlier, spirits, because they're so eager for us to know it's them, will appear in a form that will help us recognize them. Ghosts, on the other hand, couldn't care less whether we recognize them or not, since they're among us out of desperate confusion having nothing at all to do with comforting us. They might show up as very distinct images of their own earthly bodies, they might appear rather faded and unformed, or they might even present themselves as balls of heavy mist, almost as if they were smoke rings with the centers filled in. They have neither the divine skill nor the self- control of spirits from Home, so the physical appearance of ghosts is simply one more way in which they can be frustratingly unpredictable.

Now that we've covered the basics of how and why most souls become spirits and a relative few become ghosts when their bodies die, and the basics of how to tell spirits and ghosts apart, you might think that's pretty much all you need to know to prepare yourself for dealing with any unexpected visitors from the spirit world who come along.

The fact is, though, that we've only just scratched the surface.

Excerpt from Sylvia in her book "Visits from the Afterlife"

I love being right. I don't know anyone who doesn't. My career depends on my being right a lot more often than I'm wrong, and I've been tested at somewhere between 85- and 90% accuracy as a psychic. Averaging, lets say, twenty clients a day for fifty years, plus another forty years of lectures, print interviews, radio and television appearances, added to several decades of very private pro bono work with the medical and psychiatric communities and various law enforcement agencies, and my own extensive research and writing, I wouldn't have the strength, the skill, or the courage to try to calculate the number of hours of information I've transmitted in my sixty-six years on earth this time around, and I'd be ecstatic to find out that 85 to 90% of that information has been accurate and give all the credit to God where it belongs. There's no doubt about it, either, that when I miss something, I miss it, and when I'm wrong, I'll be the first to point it out. The terrorist attacks of September 11th? Not one inkling. The sniper killings that held the Washington, D.C. area hostage in the fall of 2002? I called Lindsay (someone she knows) and recorded detailed descriptions of the two suspects several days before any arrests were made.They turned out to be very accurate descriptions of the two alleged suspects who were mistakenly surrounded by the authorities at a gas station and completely exonerated several hours later. I've been thrilled to hear it when I turned out to be wrong about the outcome of a missing-persons case or two, and heartbroken on more occasions when I turned out to be right.
All of which is bound up somehow, I'm sure, in my lifelong rabid pursuit of follow-ups and validation. Not that every psychic doesn't like a client to nod or have their face light up and say, "That's uncanny! You got it exactly!" But I almost don't know when to quit. Once I sink my teeth into an investigation- and I admit it, particularly a haunting investigation, I'm like a pit bull if there's even a hint of paranormal activity going on.
And if there's not, it might amuse you to know, I don't care how many television cameras are rolling or how good a story it might make, there's not a chance in this world I would ever fake a haunting and claim something's there when I don't feel a thing. I promise you there's film of me in editing room wastebaskets around the world, walking from room to room saying, "Sorry, guys, but if this house is haunted, I'm Princess Caroline of Monaco," and, "Yes, there's a terrible cold spot in this room. You know why? Because it's the dead of winter and someone's blocked the heating vent in here." There are things I can be accused of that I'm sure I need to work on. Fraud is not one of them. I point that out not to pat myself on the back and say, "See what a terrific, moral person I am?" I point it out because I happen to believe in some of the basic, inevitable laws of God's universe, including "You reap what you sow." I don't even want to think about what kind of dark payback I'd have ahead of me if I'd spent all these years deliberately and knowingly tricking people out of money I'm not entitled to.

Sylvia-

During the writing of this book I got a phone call from a documentary film producer on behalf of a prestigious, highly respected internationally syndicated television network. The producer's proposal went like this:
For an enormous paycheck, they would fly me first class to the site of the tragic, controversial death of a famous celebrity. I would be given five-star accommodations during my stay, and all I had to do in exchange was stand as close as possible to the exact spot where the celebrity had died, trance my Spirit Guide, Francine, and let her tell the cameras and a worldwide audience of countless millions what had really happened.
I already knew what Francine had to say. She'd told me what had really happened on the day of the tragedy. And there are two things I know about Francine that are indisputable: She never lies, and she considers it a moral breach of her oath to God as a Spirit Guide to edit the information she's given. Bearing those two things in mind, I gave the producer the only answer I could possibly have given him under the circumstances. I said no.
So much for "everyone has their price." Honestly It wouldn't have mattered if he'd doubled it, or tripled it, or started adding zeroes until he'd run out of paper. There were and are some confidences I'll never betray and secrets I'll always keep, because to do anything else would hurt too many people, because I've made my own promises to God, because if people can't trust me with their secrets I'd be in the horribly lonely position of never being able to trust anyone with mine, and because at the end of the day, I have to live with myself, and without integrity, I'm not sure I could.
Don't get me wrong, I've made some mistakes along the way- and I mean some real whoppers- that if you don't know the whole story could make it look as if my integrity was a little blurry from time to time. Again, ask me and I'll tell you exactly how stupid I've been, how naive and inappropriately trusting of the wrong people I can be, and just how incredibly unpsychic I am about myself. But accuse me of ever being deliberately dishonest, or indiscreet, or greedy and ambitious at someone else's expense, or careless about the issue of integrity, and you'll have a fight on your hands, and that includes the subject of celebrities, both past and present. I don't solicit them as clients, I don't reveal their names or discuss them when they are clients, and I never, ever indulge in "ambulance chasing." In other words, when there's a famous missing-person or murder case making headlines, if I come up with relevant information, I'll contact my friends in law enforcement, but I will absolutely not approach the families. I'll return their calls and make time for them in a heartbeat if they ask, which they often do, but I won't intrude on their private tragedy, and if you ever read about my involvement with them, that information will never come from me or my office.

Me, Shane talking-

I recently read in one of her books about a time a few years ago, some tv producer or someone had contacted her about using her name to run some psychic hotline. And Sylvia's pay was to be 40,000.00 a week. She asked him, "Now how am I going to answer thousands of phone calls coming in?" and his reply was "Oh, don't worry... we'll hire a bunch of operators to handle all the calls, all you have to do is write a script they can all use." She told him no. That she would never be involved in deceiving people or scamming them. If there's one thing Sylvia hates, it's fake "psychic" scammers. And she says she's notorious for turning them all in to the proper authorities. And for us to do the same. And to even call HER and she would do it.

Now on to the fan letters of their own ghost stories they wrote in-

Sylvia-
If you know me or my work, you know that I'm a firm believer in the value of open-minded skepticism, probably because I happen to be an open-minded skeptic myself. So as you read this wealth of experiences from the almost two thousand letters I received in the last few months, be as skeptical as you like about the stories as long as you're fair. But don't for a minute be skeptical about the sincerity of the people who wrote in. Not only did each of them mean every word, but the vast majority of them started or ended their letters with a phrase you might find yourself saying someday when you're hoping someone will take you seriously- "I would have bet any amount of money that never in my life would anything like this happen to me."

My husband and I didn't notice anything unusual when we first moved into our rented house. And when I started hearing noises, and thought I saw someone out of the corner of my eye even though I knew I was home alone, I convinced myself it was my imagination, until my husband confessed that he was hearing noises too. He also admitted to occasionally sensing a presence in our bedroom.
One night he swore he felt someone sit next to him on the bed, and it frightened him so much that to this day he insists on sleeping in the middle of the bed. I began having such intense feelings of being watched, and of a pressure at the foot of the bed, that it would wake me out of a sound sleep, and I would cover my head and pray to God to protect my family and me.
Not long after that incident with my husband, I woke up to what sounded exactly like a woman in high-heeled shoes walking around in the kitchen. I told my husband about it the next morning, being careful not to say anything at all when our little girl was in the room, because neither of us wanted to upset or frighten her. But later that day she asked me why I was up during the night walking around in the kitchen with my high-heeled shoes on.
Two weeks later I ran into a cousin I've been close to all my life. He told me about a dream he'd had in which he was at my house and there was a woman with black hair walking through the kitchen wearing high-heeled shoes, and then she flew into a hole in the floor.
He was laughing. I wasn't. I hadn't told him about the sounds my daughter and I had heard, nor had I told him about a hole that had recently appeared in the kitchen floor that we were having repaired.
The last straw was the day I went for a walk with my mother. I made a point of turning off the TV before we left the house, so I was shocked when we returned home, and before we'd reached the front door, we could hear music blaring from the living room stereo I hadn't even been listening to. Not only was the music almost deafening, but as we stepped inside I actually saw the stereo being turned off. My mother was afraid and quickly left, and I announced out loud to whoever or whatever was there that if there was a message I was supposed to be getting, I would listen to it in Jesus' name or not at all. I started talking to the presence whenever I heard or saw something odd, and while the conversations were always one sided and I never did get a message that I know of, I must admit that I never felt threatened by the presence again.
We no longer live in that house. I heard recently that the current occupants are having some bizarre experiences surrounding the kitchen, and it made me wonder all over again who that presence was and what it wanted. -L.P.

Sylvia's response:
The presence was a ghost, a woman named Clara Nugent, who was murdered in the kitchen of a previous version of that house many decades ago. She fit the description of the woman in your cousin's dream- black hair, tall, a long, pale, slender face, one of those people who perpetually looked as if they were almost under more stress than they could handle. Interestingly, she was wearing high heels when she was killed, running across the linoleum floor, when her heel caught in a hole in the linoleum, causing her to stumble and allowing her assailant to catch her and stab her to death.
Clara Nugent is a classic case of a ghost whose death was so violent and sudden that she had no idea she'd died. In her perception, she was still very much alive and going about her business, and she's been very confused about these intruders who were moving in and out of the house ever since, ignoring her, treating her as if she's not even there while refusing her pleas for protection from this man she's so justifiably frightened of. The good news is, Clara Nugent has very recently been embraced into the safe, eternal peace of Home by loved ones who've been watching her, so I would bet that the current occupants and everyone who lives in that house from now on will be sadly disappointed if they lie awake hoping to hear the ghostly sound of high-heeled footsteps crossing quickly across the kitchen floor in the middle of the night.

Another fan wrote in-

For a period of more than six years of my life, I spent a lot of time with a man who was very special to me. We frequently talked about marriage. What kept stopping me from going through with it was his excessive drinking.
In case you think I'm being judgmental when I use the word "excessive," I should add that when we broke up, he was exhibiting severe symptoms of alcoholism and experiencing hallucinations. That was in the 1980's, and he was about 40 years old.
I saw him rarely after that, even though we lived in the same area and had mutual friends. The next time we spoke was in the spring of 1997. He'd married and was getting divorced by then, and he wanted to see me. I was surprised at how easy and natural our conversation was, as though no time had passed, but even after all those years I realized I was still angry at him for the excessive drinking he'd allowed to destroy the wonderful life we could have had together. He gave me his number, but I knew I wouldn't call him.
Another year passed. I moved to Florida. In August of 1998, I went through a terrible period of dark depression after losing a job and being betrayed by someone I thought was a trusted friend.
One night in particular I remember lying in bed believing it was possible that I really wouldn't ever find another job and that my elderly parents, as if they hadn't already done more than enough for me in their lives, would find themselves having to support me yet again, which would be unbearable to me. I prayed very hard for help that night, asking God for any hope he could offer and for me to please not feel so useless, weak, and alone.
I don't remember falling asleep that night, but I do remember that the minute I did I was dreaming, and in my dream that long-ago special man was there. He said, "You can lean on me," and he told me to put my head on his chest. I did, and I felt an amazing sense of relief. The next thing I knew, we were walking on the beach. He was to my left, with the ocean beyond him. He'd always had a terrific sense of humor and I associated him with lots of laughter, but in my dream he was very serious and determined. All of a sudden he stopped and turned to me.
I'm not sure what he said or how I knew this, but he wanted to pull something from me. I resisted, still resenting him, I guess. It wasn't my heart he wanted, it was more like my essence, my drive, my inspiration, for lack of a better word. He insisted, and there, with our just facing each other, the next thing I knew I had this incredible feeling of sparkling unity that seemed to rise up like a pilot light being reignited, and then the intensity and he were gone.
When I woke up the next morning I had the warmest, most grateful feelings toward him, and I wanted to contact him. Suddenly, for just a few moments, I was able to cherish all the things I'd loved about him, with no interference. But then, inevitably, those other ugly memories came flooding back in too and once again, I didn't call.
Less than a month later, in November 1998, I landed a terrific job. Maybe two weeks after that at most, just after Thanksgiving, an old mutual friend of his and mine called whom I hadn't talked to in ages. After a few minutes of general catching up I finally asked how "he" was doing.
"I thought you knew," she said. "He passed away. Very suddenly. In the spring of '97. Come to think of it, I saw him the morning he died, and he said he'd just spoken to you the day before."
Now that I know he was gone when I had that "dream" about him, I no longer believe it was a "dream" at all. I believe with all my heart that I went to visit him on The Other Side. When I thought he wanted to pull something from me, I was wrong. What he really wanted was to give me something he wasn't healthy enough to give me in life, much as he would have liked to- hope and strength and a sense of direction and all those things I prayed for that night.
I must have complained to him a thousand times during our relationship that he was never there for me when I needed him. That thought will never cross my mind again. I treasure the honor of meeting his spirit on that beautiful beach, seeing the amazing man he truly was, and knowing that I can now always remember him with no anger and with all the gratitude and respect he deserves.
And finally, I have to say, I've always been skeptical about the idea that we all come from The Other Side and we'll all go there when we die. I thought if there really were a place that perfect and that spectacular, we'd remember it or know about it somehow. Since we don't, it must not exist, right?
Wrong.
I was there, with my friend, I know I was.
And it's this simple. The only reason we don't know about The Other Side is that if we did, we wouldn't want to be here anymore. -T.H.

Sylvia's response-
I don't have a single thing to add to that but "Amen."

From Sylvia-

The Toys "R" Us Ghost

There's no ghost my clients and readers ask about more often than Johnny Johnson, who's been haunting the Toys "R" Us store in Sunnyvale, California, since his death in 1884. He's a classic case of a ghost caught in a time warp- he's hard at work at his handyman job, tending to the Martin Murphy ranch that thrived on that same land a hundred years ago. He can't figure out for the life of him (excuse the expression) where all these loud, rambunctious children keep coming from who tear up his freshly planted vegetables, having no clue that the children are actually playing up and down the aisles of the toy store that sits there today. In fact, his complaints about children gave me one of my first opportunities to validate Johnny Johnson's existence for the Toys "R" Us store manager.
"Those twin boys who came through here a while ago were hellions," Johnny grumbled one afternoon. "Running around, screaming and yelling, like little animals, almost fell in the creek. I've never seen anything like it." I casually asked the manager if by any chance a pair of twin boys had been in the store that day.
"Were they ever," he said, shaking his head. "Hell on wheels, those two, and their mother doesn't do a thing about it." He stopped suddenly, cocking his head a little, "Wait, that was hours before you got here. How did you know?"
"Your ghost told me," I smiled, and he was a believer from that moment on.
Johnny Johnson during his lifetime was a young itinerant Presbyterian minister who boarded at the Murphy ranch and was deeply in love with his employer's daughter Beth. Completely unaware of his feelings for her, Beth married another man and left the ranch to settle with her husband in Boston. The night I first met him in 1978, Johnny was still busying himself around "the ranch," believing with all his heart that someday Beth would come back to him. I started telling him all those years ago that Beth was dead, that he was dead, and that all he had to do to reunite with her was go to the light of God that was waiting for him. He got so tired of hearing it that one day he snapped at me and said, "If you don't stop telling me I'm dead, I'm never going to talk to you again." I decided that keeping the lines of communication open between us was better than nothing, so I've never mentioned it again.
A few weeks ago, so that I could write as recent an update as possible, I went back to the Toys "R" Us in Sunnyvale. I was so encouraged when I first arrived to find that Johnny was nowhere to be seen. I even felt my heartbeat speed up a little at the thrilling possibility that he'd finally taken my word for it and gone Home to find Beth and so many other loved ones who were waiting for him.
But a few minutes later I walked around the end of a far aisle and there, several feet away, near the back wall of the store, was Johnny Johnson. He was limping painfully as always from the wound to his leg that had killed him, raking an invisible pile of leaves beside a stream that no one else can even remember, let alone see. I asked him how he was, and he nodded without looking up, too busy earning his keep on the Martin Murphy ranch to take time out for idle chitchat. Out of respect, I decided not to bother him and left the store.
And so, until the spirits on The Other Side manage to retrieve him, I feel sad but safe in saying that if you've always wanted to see a ghost but haven't been sure where one is likely to appear, just go to the Sunnyvale Toys "R" Us and look for a tall, very slender man with a limp, dressed in work clothes, a lost, heartbroken look in his eyes. Say hello to him with an understanding smile on your way past, and above all, remember him in your prayers.

carrie721

01-12-2010, 06:12 AM

fringed n fab

01-12-2010, 06:18 AM

I've thought about the "30 years of age" we're supposed to be in Heaven, and to me I feel that has to be some special number God just wants us all to be in Heaven I guess. But when you think about it, maybe it really IS just a number, since we're all supposed to be lovely beautiful beings in Heaven and of course there's no "time" or aging to us. If that's truly how we're all supposed to be up there, maybe only God will ever know? I've talked to my family about it too and they had questions about well, where's the beautiful "children" in Heaven then? And I thought about it and feel that well yes, thered have to be small children in Heaven because they're so special as we know to God or maybe the babies waiting to be born or something? That would make some sense. Or that we're able to take on many visages in Heaven so maybe some of those entities in Heaven are babies. It's complicated yet fascinating really to think about and from what I've read, maybe even in Heaven they'll be some things we aren't supposed to know or understand that only God will ever know.

GODDESS6

01-12-2010, 06:27 AM

i do believe in an afterlife~

fringed n fab

01-12-2010, 06:45 AM

it's interesting to me how much thought some other people put into this sort of thing because i give it zero thought. i don't know what happens when we die and i really don't care :shrug: to me it seems like a waste of energy to come up with such elaborate explanations for something of which there is no factual evidence. but i guess it serves a purpose for some people, and lots of people probably think the BS i spend my time on is stupid. :laugh:

i don't really understand the search for these kinds of answers. it seems to me that it's all conjecture, and the answers you land on are ones that bring you peace, not the ones that have proven themselves to be true. you have not died and gone to "the other side" to see what it's like. nor has sylvia browne. so at the end of the day, you're still left with uncertainty, right? inasmuch as a lack of proof = uncertainty.
so i don't go asking questions that can only be answered with just-so stories. but i am fascinated by people who do and by their answers.

what shocks me the most about all of this is that you went 20 years without reading a book. :lol:
I know this is always going to be a strong, debatable topic with people, with many strong views. So it's prefectly ok whatever one believes. I just go by what I feel in my mind and heart to be true and explainable. I've never had the experience, but countless people have "died" and been brought back here and all have described basically the same things about the afterlife and what happened. You can't just easily write that stuff off. And everyone has said that as much as you might feel you want to stay "here" that once you start to pass over you DON'T want to come back here to this world. I think it happens. I believe these people because it's happened to enough. I also feel the ones who delve and open up their minds to all of this, the more things you will begin to see and feel ;) and I think that's why a lot of (true) psychics are able to see and hear so much. Because they're tuned in to it and paying attention. It's everyones prerogative to shut this stuff out. But for ones that tune in, yes I believe you will begin to notice these things and not feel crazy at all about it. Now about what I bolded you up there, according to what Sylvia has explained, none of this won't make sense until we do arrive in Heaven (again) and then it will all come rushing back to us in an instant. "Yes I remember this place! I spent an eternity here" You see, we've all supposedly been entities on the Other Side before we ourselves, decided to incarnate on this Earth to learn for our souls and for God. You see, that's all earth is really and our lives, is just us coming here to enrich ourselves for God. There are also supposed to be entities in Heaven who have refused to come down here on Earth to incarnate, because they know what a tough school this is so they're free to choose some type of other learning for God. You see, I never believed in this stuff before, destiny, fate, incarnations, all that stuff... until these books better explained everything and then you go, well HUH! That sure made some sense. You see, when we chose to come down here, we, not God, we wrote everything in our charts. EVERYTHING. Sure there are option lines wrote in, sure we'll go off track at times in our lifetimes, but we get right back on track because it's written in our own personal charts. Some people leave their bodies in sleep and go to the Other Side all the time. I believe that. We leave our bodies in sleep all the time, a lot of the time we just don't remember it when we awaken. If you read the books, it tells of God's promise to us that yes, we ARE all eternal. Our spirits always were, and always will be. And by that it is my understanding that we have never really died. But this lifetime here is supposed to be our last and we're finally "done" so that's refreshing.

fringed n fab

01-12-2010, 06:55 AM

carrie721

01-12-2010, 06:59 AM

Sylvia Browne years ago while in the hospital had a near death experience, the tunnel rising up from her body like she explains, going through the tunnel and the white light at the end... and then being snapped right back into her body and finding her family all around her bed. She describes what millions of others have described about just what happens when we "die". You can't just easily write this stuff off to me.

but if "millions" of others have described it ... surely she had heard their descriptions before? and could possibly have just tailored her description of her experience to fit theirs?

also i have read that when people have near-death experiences, their brains are flooded with pain-numbing chemicals as a defense mechanism, and that those could have hallucinogenic properties, which would explain why so many people describe a bright light/tunnel type vision.

fringed n fab

01-12-2010, 07:35 AM

but if "millions" of others have described it ... surely she had heard their descriptions before? and could possibly have just tailored her description of her experience to fit theirs?

also i have read that when people have near-death experiences, their brains are flooded with pain-numbing chemicals as a defense mechanism, and that those could have hallucinogenic properties, which would explain why so many people describe a bright light/tunnel type vision.

Theres always an explanation.

To the thousands of us collaborators on this particular book, and the many millions who don't question any more than we do that of course there's an afterlife, there are those who will always be ready with a list of handy explanations for what we "think" we're seeing, hearing, and feeling. "Grief hysteria," "oxygen deprivation," and variations on terms for both "mental illness" and "scam" are among the most popular. What these skeptics and "experts" are usually insisting on, though, is the same cynical demand, over and over and over again, which boils down to:

"Prove that there's life after death."

I'm sixty-six years old, and I've never spent one instant doubting that there's life after death. The thousands of us who contributed to this book, on earth and beyond it, don't doubt it. The millions we represent don't doubt it. God certainly doesn't doubt it, since He's the One who told us it's true in the first place, and we take His word for everything. We're not the ones who are having a problem with this. You are. So why do we keep knocking ourselves out trying to prove something we already know with absolute certainty?

Here's my suggestion to the skeptics and "experts," for a refreshing change of pace. We're done proving that there's life after death. We've proven it well past our own satisfaction. From now on, let's do it this way: You prove that there's not.

carrie721

01-12-2010, 07:45 AM

fringed n fab

01-12-2010, 07:53 AM

Oh not at all. I wasn't suggesting anything and wont. This entire topic is open for discussion if people want to share their stories and views. I know not everyone is going to agree or even begin to maybe understand or make any sense of it. I just find some of this fascinating really and stuff to wonder about sometimes. But like I said earlier, I don't think we should spend so much time debating and worrying about death that we forget to live.

holidayroad

01-12-2010, 09:56 AM

tilthefirefades

01-12-2010, 10:07 AM

I don't believe in any of it, and the more i become educated every day on every topic or subject i am more and more sure that i don't believe. Spirits and a wonderful afterlife is just not realistic to me. The thought that we can do as we please in this world, only to live eternally in a perfect one afterward, sounds completely ridiculous. However, the notion is fascinating, and I have respect for all viewpoints and religions.

Zombie

01-12-2010, 11:00 AM

Theres always an explanation.

To the thousands of us collaborators on this particular book, and the many millions who don't question any more than we do that of course there's an afterlife, there are those who will always be ready with a list of handy explanations for what we "think" we're seeing, hearing, and feeling. "Grief hysteria," "oxygen deprivation," and variations on terms for both "mental illness" and "scam" are among the most popular. What these skeptics and "experts" are usually insisting on, though, is the same cynical demand, over and over and over again, which boils down to:

"Prove that there's life after death."

I'm sixty-six years old, and I've never spent one instant doubting that there's life after death. The thousands of us who contributed to this book, on earth and beyond it, don't doubt it. The millions we represent don't doubt it. God certainly doesn't doubt it, since He's the One who told us it's true in the first place, and we take His word for everything. We're not the ones who are having a problem with this. You are. So why do we keep knocking ourselves out trying to prove something we already know with absolute certainty?

Here's my suggestion to the skeptics and "experts," for a refreshing change of pace. We're done proving that there's life after death. We've proven it well past our own satisfaction. From now on, let's do it this way: You prove that there's not.

Based on the evidence and information currently available to us, I do not believe in an afterlife. Furthermore, I think Sylvia Browne is a dangerous person, but that's not what I'm going to focus on for the moment.

The Sylvia Brownes of the world have a bad habit of engaging in linguistic legerdemain when they discuss these topics and the above quote is a prime example of this. They want to play baseball with the scientific community, but they conveniently forget all of their baseball equipment at home and instead show up for the game with a pile of miscellaneous basketballs, footballs and hockey sticks. Then they insist they're ready to play, as long as it's by their rules.

But you don't play baseball with a hockey stick, do you?

The problem with telling skeptics "you prove that there's not" is that it's not our job to prove a negative. If you assert the positive, then the burden is on you to show your evidence for it and show why you are right. When a skeptic says, "Show me why this is true" and Sylvia Browne responds with, "God said so," she's already taken herself out of the game. When did God say so? Where? How? Why hasn't he said it to me? And ignoring all of that for a moment, what is a god? What makes a god the final say in this? And which god are you talking about? The God of the Abrahamic religions? Odin? Cernunnos? Osiris? Kali Ma? The Flying Spaghetti Monster? If this is something that is incontrovertable fact, then I should easily be able to see what it is she sees. Show me.

There is much evidence currently available for us to examine that says that the bright lights, tunnels and other experiences people have during an NDE is perhaps nothing more than the normal workings of a dying brain. Those asserting that an afterlife does exist have no evidence of the same sort to back themselves up.

Feelings, while they are all well and good, are not proof. They are feelings. Stories from other people, whether they number in the millions or the tens, are not proof. They are stories.

While Sylvia Browne is busy talking down to the skeptic community (for examples, please see the OP's original Sylvia quote, which uses the word experts in quotes - a subtle and clever way of trying to dismiss them before they've even had a chance to open their mouths), she's also misrepresenting their position to her readers, listeners and proponents.

A true skeptic or person of science does not say "No, definitely not" to the idea of an afterlife. They say, "I don't know, and you don't either, but based on the actual, measurable evidence and data to hand, probably not. If and when new evidence appears, however, we may have to re-evaluate our current position - we, as in, us OR the people insisting the afterlife is true - depending on the nature of that new evidence."

It goes both ways - we may uncover evidence that the afterlife IS real, in which case I will certainly concede and adjust my position. But the same goes for those that assert the afterlife is real, too - you have to be willing to also adjust your position.

It's not hard to see why so many people latch onto Sylvia Browne. She is very, very good at what she does - that's how she got to be so well-known. She knows how to couch her language to set up a bias towards her position before she's even finished getting all of the words out of her mouth. She knows how to craft a lot of word salad that sounds good on the surface, which causes many people to eat it without examining it closely or at all.

In just this one quote above, you can find many glaring examples of that if you just read it again from a slightly different perspective.

When Sylvia says "I am 66 years old," she's saying, "I'm old. And we all know that old = wise, don't we?" But her age has nothing to do with anything. Being older does not automatically mean you are smarter or wiser. It just means you've been breathing longer.

When Sylvia throws the words "mental illness" into a sentence about why skeptics or the scientific community don't buy what she's selling, she's saying, "Look, these guys think you're mentally ill if you agree with me. They're calling you crazy. Don't listen to them."

When Sylvia strategically puts the word "scam" next to "mental illness" in that same sentence, she's giving herself the ammo she needs to counteract the people that do claim she's a fraudster that scams people, only not in the way that many of her readers might think. Because lots of people DO call her a scammer, and they're not wrong in that - she's a convicted felon (investment fraud and grand theft - she pleaded no contest for securities fraud and was indicted for grand larceny). But if she suggests that the people calling "scam" at her are actually doing it in reference to her views on the afterlife, her readers/listeners/fans will remember that the next time they hear the word "scam" in relation to her name and immediately dismiss the information, whether the word is being used to describe her views on the afterlife OR it's being used to describe her fraudulently taking $20,000 from a couple under false pretenses in gold mine investment shenanigans, her extremely inaccurate psychic predictions that have resulted in her once, memorably, telling another couple destroyed by grief over their missing son that he was absolutely dead when it turned out he wasn't, as well as telling two young women that their missing mother was alive & well & living in Orlando when she'd actually been strangled to death and buried about two miles away from her home in PA. By her son in law. Who was right there in front of her (Sylvia) when she gave her psychic reading about the case on Montel.

When Sylvia uses words like "cynical" to describe the people that question the veracity of her claims, what she's really saying is, "Yeah, remember those guys that think you're mentally ill? The ones that ask questions? They're just cynical. Asking questions and wanting answers is cynical. And we all know cynical is bad. Don't be cynical."

And when Sylvia places quotation marks around the word "experts" twice in a mere handful of short paragraphs, what she's really saying is, "So those cynical guys that think you're insane, they call themselves experts, but they're really not. Those poor silly people. I'll humor them by using the word, but I'm going to put it in quotation marks so you know that they aren't really experts like me or people who believe what I do."

Oh, and a fun one, as well!

When Sylvia says, "The thousands of us who contributed to this book, on earth and beyond it, don't doubt it.", she's not only engaging in a logical fallacy called "appeal to numbers" ( like the old saying, "1 billion Chinamen can't be wrong") but, as an extra added bonus, she's saying part of her numbers are comprised of dead people that talk to her.

Dead people.

That talk to her.

Which proves there's an afterlife.

Because they're dead.

And still talking to her.

So how can you deny there's an afterlife when there's a bunch of dead people clearly having one right now and talking to her about it?

It's one thing to try to falsely bolster an argument by pointing at a thousand people who say the same thing you do - whether you are right or wrong - but it takes a special person to try to swell the ranks with dead folks.

Unless by "and beyond it" she meant Martians, not dead people... but if she's also talking to Martians, that's a whole 'nother can of gummy worms.

Anyway, I am a skeptic, and I wear that mantle with pride. It is not bad or wrong to be a skeptic, though the Sylvia Brownes of the world might wish you to think otherwise. It is not a life without hope or future. Being a skeptic does not automatically mean you are cynical. It does not mean that you are not open to new ideas. In fact, quite the opposite - skepticism is hallmarked by curiosity and an appetite for answers. We question claims not because we want to piss in anyone's cornflakes but because we honestly want to find real answers. If someone claims they have a truth, we want to hear it and see for ourselves.

As a skeptic, I want to hear what everyone has to say and I want to see what they've got for me. As a skeptic, I examine both sides of the argument so I can make an informed opinion or decision when I can.

I do not say any of these things to denigrate anyone that DOES believe in an afterlife. Your belief or lack of belief in an afterlife is no skin off my ass. I say them to point out that Sylvia Browne does not know ANYTHING with "absolute certainty" when it comes to the afterlife, and to assert such is to engage in the same behavior that she insists the skeptics wrongly engage in. I say them because, if you are questing for answers and truth, you must be willing to evaluate things as objectively as you can and consider your sources.

I say them because I think it is a good thing to be open-minded and curious and investigate. But, as they say, don't be so open-minded that your brain falls out.

So, I encourage anyone that is "pro-afterlife," as it were, and doesn't already do so to give the other side equal time. I suggest Michael Shermer's excellent piece called "Debates: The Great Afterlife: Michael Shermer v. Deepak Chopra." You can read it here: http://www.skeptic.com/reading_room/debates/afterlife.html

And if anyone is interested in reading more, please don't hesitate to ask me - I can give you a tidy list of recommendations to get you going. By the same token, if you have anything that you feel I should read, please hit me with them.

GODDESS6

01-12-2010, 11:28 AM

carrie721

01-12-2010, 12:35 PM

Anyway, I am a skeptic, and I wear that mantle with pride. It is not bad or wrong to be a skeptic, though the Sylvia Brownes of the world might wish you to think otherwise. It is not a life without hope or future. Being a skeptic does not automatically mean you are cynical. It does not mean that you are not open to new ideas. In fact, quite the opposite - skepticism is hallmarked by curiosity and an appetite for answers. We question claims not because we want to piss in anyone's cornflakes but because we honestly want to find real answers. If someone claims they have a truth, we want to hear it and see for ourselves.

word on that bird.

truth is, i am cynical about quite a few things. i'm frequently cynical about humans and their intentions. i'm not paranoid, i just have a pretty good understanding of human behavior. however, i am not cynical about the infinite number of possibilities that exist in an infinite universe. it is because i believe there is an infinite number of possibilities that it seems pointless, foolhardy, and inefficient to align myself with one specific elaborate story. especially when my own personal experience in this vast universe is so insignificant, and especially in the face of an utter lack of evidence that any one myth is the "right" one.

and yeah, sign me up for the zombie book club. i'm always eager for reading recommendations.

i'll show you mine if you show me yours. :lol:

David

01-12-2010, 02:02 PM

i do believe in an afterlife~I believe in an aftertaste.

fringed n fab

01-12-2010, 04:51 PM

I don't believe in God and Heaven, but I do believe in ghosts/spirits because I have personally seen one and heard/saw presence/evidence of others. I guess what I find somewhat confusing about the belief in God is that so many people have so many different takes on it. For example, fringed n fab believes in God, psychics, and ghosts. Yet, a lot of Christians would say that that psychics and ghosts are ideas that are against the Christian God. Ten years ago, I moved from farther north to the south here in the U.S. and unless you live in small towns in the South, you would never believe how much the majority of people here are Consumed by Christianity and God. If you don't believe in it exactly the way they do, to them you are flat out wrong and going straight to hell. People here believe if you are not in church everytime the doors are opened, it means you're not a Christian. These people can be scary!

And that is why I could never step foot again in a conventional church. For "people like me" we're already condemned to hell and banished from Heaven before we even enter the door. It's no wonder some people just go kill themselves over so much frustration from being told they're some defect of humankind or that they're wrong for being what they are. It's nice to know that yes, our God is an all loving God who loves every one of us and couldn't possibly "hate" us because he just doesn't have it in him to do so. Which is what I started to feel years ago before I even started reading it elsewhere. You say it's all hokey and untrue or unfounded, the dead talking about this. Well what if it IS true about Heaven and how God is supposed to be from ones already gone who are already up there? And that's why I'll listen to a lot of this. It only makes sense that God's not really a being to fear. That he loves us all no matter what. Churches and some of their teachings have taught so many that He's something to fear and He's this unapproachable being and I don't think so at all anymore. I think He's there for all of us if we just let him in. It's puzzling how church can actually turn a person away from God instead of actually making one feel comfortable and bringing them in.

fringed n fab

01-12-2010, 05:11 PM

Years ago my late aunt was telling my mom and dad about all these weird things happening in their house back in the early 80's. How their teenaged daughters would be getting ready for school in the mornings and stand in front of the dressing mirror fixing their hair and go to grab the hairbrush that had just been sitting there and it vanish and be gone and go to look for it and ask if the other sister had taken it, only to return to find it still laying there on the dresser. Or the time when my aunt was home alone busy cleaning the house with only my little 3 year old cousin and my cousin wanted a pickle from atop the fridge in the huge pickle jar and my aunt had told her "In a minute when mommy's finished" and five minutes passed and my cousin returns with the pickle in her hand and my aunt asked "Barbie how on earth did you get that pickle?" and the little girl said "Bobo got it for me." It was a playful ghost they had for years while living in that house.

fringed n fab

01-12-2010, 05:25 PM

A couple years later after being told that story, my mom and little sister had dropped by the same aunt's house to pay a visit for something and the door was open so mom opens the screen door and walks on in only to find my aunt and everyone were gone. So mom and my sister sit down in the dining room thinking my aunt maybe ran around the corner to the store real quick for something. Mom says the next thing she knows, she hears all these dishes breaking in the kitchen and runs in there to find cups and plates just scooting out of the cabinets and falling to the floor, so she grabbed my little sister up and ran out the door as fast as she could with her and got the hell out of that house.

HomerMcvie

01-12-2010, 05:47 PM

I believe in an aftertaste.
Sometimes aftertaste is the best part! I went to work with aftertaste, last week. I couldn't think about work, all night long!

holidayroad

01-12-2010, 05:53 PM

And that is why I could never step foot again in a conventional church. For "people like me" we're already condemned to hell and banished from Heaven before we even enter the door. It's no wonder some people just go kill themselves over so much frustration from being told they're some defect of humankind or that they're wrong for being what they are. It's nice to know that yes, our God is an all loving God who loves every one of us and couldn't possibly "hate" us because he just doesn't have it in him to do so. Which is what I started to feel years ago before I even started reading it elsewhere. You say it's all hokey and untrue or unfounded, the dead talking about this. Well what if it IS true about Heaven and how God is supposed to be from ones already gone who are already up there? And that's why I'll listen to a lot of this. It only makes sense that God's not really a being to fear. That he loves us all no matter what. Churches and some of their teachings have taught so many that He's something to fear and He's this unapproachable being and I don't think so at all anymore. I think He's there for all of us if we just let him in. It's puzzling how church can actually turn a person away from God instead of actually making one feel comfortable and bringing them in.

I'm glad that you can still have faith in God and that his 'followers' haven't ruined it for you. I like what you said about how it's puzzling how church can turn people away from God instead of bringing them in. That's how most churches seem to operate here. Be 'one of us' or stay away! I'm Wiccan and my husband is as well. We have found crosses set up on our lawn (thankfully not burning) and have had mail sent to us that said some not so great things about us (it wasn't signed). I think the only thing that keeps trouble away now is that we let our son go to church with his grandfather.

Zombie

01-12-2010, 06:36 PM

i used to be a huge sylvia browne fan~ read her books, never missed an appearance she had on montel, read everything i could find about her online~

my dad had just died & she gave me hope & was inspiring~

but then i read how her & her husband had been defrauding people~ it was posted on here about it a long time ago~ along w/ alot of other things she doesn't want folks to know~ it was very disheartening to find out

just google her, you can read for yourself~

but i still believe in an afterlife, ghosts & spirits~ i always have~

She's a pretty nasty piece of work, in my opinion. This is why I call her a dangerous person - she peddles hope, but it's a false hope. She's also consistently intellectually dishonest - her long-standing fued with James Randi is an excellent example of that.

word on that bird.

truth is, i am cynical about quite a few things. i'm frequently cynical about humans and their intentions. i'm not paranoid, i just have a pretty good understanding of human behavior. however, i am not cynical about the infinite number of possibilities that exist in an infinite universe. it is because i believe there is an infinite number of possibilities that it seems pointless, foolhardy, and inefficient to align myself with one specific elaborate story. especially when my own personal experience in this vast universe is so insignificant, and especially in the face of an utter lack of evidence that any one myth is the "right" one.

and yeah, sign me up for the zombie book club. i'm always eager for reading recommendations.

i'll show you mine if you show me yours. :lol:

Well, I'm pretty cynical, too, it's just not an automatic byproduct of my skepticism. My cynicism usually stems from observing people & the things we do to each other. That never ceases to amaze me in the worst way possible.

For reading on this and related subjects, I recommend:

The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark by Carl Sagan

Why People Believe Weird Things: Psuedosicence, Superstition and Other Confusions of Our Time by Michael Shermer

Unweaving the Rainbow: Science, Delusion and the Appetite for Wonder by Richard Dawkins

The Blank Slate by Steven Pinker

Flim-Flam! Psychics, ESP, Unicorns and Other Delusions by James Randi

Randi also has an excellent book called "The Faith Healers" that has a foreword by Carl Sagan. I'm a big Randi fan, he's kind of awesome.

For online reading, I recommend:

the Skeptic's Dictionary, www.skepdic.com

Skeptic Magazine's site, www.skeptic.com

The James Randi Educational Foundation, http://www.randi.org/ - There's a wealth of stuff about Sylvia Browne here - http://www.randi.org/sylvia/index.shtml - Randi has a $1 million Challenge, wherein he will give you a million smackers if you can prove your claimed abilities under a set of mutually agreed upon protocols. Sylvia has accepted the Challenge, but conveniently won't get around to actually doing it, even though she agreed to the protocols on Larry King Live. D'oh!

Whatchoo got for me?

Zombie

01-12-2010, 06:40 PM

I'm glad that you can still have faith in God and that his 'followers' haven't ruined it for you. I like what you said about how it's puzzling how church can turn people away from God instead of bringing them in. That's how most churches seem to operate here. Be 'one of us' or stay away! I'm Wiccan and my husband is as well. We have found crosses set up on our lawn (thankfully not burning) and have had mail sent to us that said some not so great things about us (it wasn't signed). I think the only thing that keeps trouble away now is that we let our son go to church with his grandfather.

That's terrible! It would never occur to me to send a letter to a religious family in my town calling them names for being religious. I'm sorry that you have to deal with that.

LukeA

01-12-2010, 07:06 PM

I'm glad that you can still have faith in God and that his 'followers' haven't ruined it for you. I like what you said about how it's puzzling how church can turn people away from God instead of bringing them in. That's how most churches seem to operate here. Be 'one of us' or stay away! I'm Wiccan and my husband is as well. We have found crosses set up on our lawn (thankfully not burning) and have had mail sent to us that said some not so great things about us (it wasn't signed). I think the only thing that keeps trouble away now is that we let our son go to church with his grandfather.

Wait- you're telling me people who identify themselves as religious are also timid & hypocritical? :rolleyes:

(I'm very sorry that you have to deal with such idiots)

fringed n fab

01-12-2010, 07:40 PM

The James Randi Educational Foundation, http://www.randi.org/ - There's a wealth of stuff about Sylvia Browne here - http://www.randi.org/sylvia/index.shtml - Randi has a $1 million Challenge, wherein he will give you a million smackers if you can prove your claimed abilities under a set of mutually agreed upon protocols. Sylvia has accepted the Challenge, but conveniently won't get around to actually doing it, even though she agreed to the protocols on Larry King Live. D'oh!

Whatchoo got for me? To me I feel she's proven herself to too many others that she's for real. And I don't say that to many "psychics". I don't think she needs to "prove" herself to anyone or accept someone elses money to take their "test". To me, believing in man and science is a BAD thing because man will lead you to believe many things (his way) if you're not careful. That goes for a lot of churches too. I appreciate everyone's viewpoints on this and this issue always leads one way or the other and is to be expected. No one's ever "right" or "wrong" about it. It's our personal beliefs and views and what we feel about this whole thing. And that's ok ;) :thumbsup:

fringed n fab

01-12-2010, 07:48 PM

You walk up to total strangers and just know this stuff about them?

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fringed n fab

01-12-2010, 07:59 PM

fringed n fab

01-12-2010, 08:36 PM

jaycee

01-12-2010, 09:17 PM

To me I feel she's proven herself to too many others that she's for real. And I don't say that to many "psychics". I don't think she needs to "prove" herself to anyone or accept someone elses money to take their "test". To me, believing in man and science is a BAD thing because man will lead you to believe many things (his way) if you're not careful. That goes for a lot of churches too. I appreciate everyone's viewpoints on this and this issue always leads one way or the other and is to be expected. No one's ever "right" or "wrong" about it. It's our personal beliefs and views and what we feel about this whole thing. And that's ok ;) :thumbsup:

Well, there is an objective reality out there, that we're a (tiny) part of, so theres always a right or wrong answer. The question is, how do we know we're right? Of course, it's a philosophical fallacy to say with certainty that you know you're right - e.g. the chair on which I'm sitting may not exist at all, because all my brain is doing is interpreting sense data like sight and feeling, which are fallible. If you're certain you can see your computer screen at the moment and know it exists, just (very!) briefly glance directly at the sun. You should see a colour patch for a while if you look at a white wall or close your eyes, that (almost certainly) doesn't really exist. So how do you know your monitor isn't in fact a very elaborate light trick? Of course, it could also be a hallucination, perhaps because your brain isn't getting all the sugar it needs (at least I think that's how hallucinations work). So, as confident as you are, you can't be certain! :laugh:
So, how's that relevant here? Well, I'm a skeptic, and when I say I know there's not an afterlife, no ghosts and no spirits, I am actually saying that, given available evidence and our (i.e. scientists) current understanding of how the universe works, I find these phenomena both highly unlikely and contradictory to expectation, because of the nature of the current hallmarks of physics, Einstein's Gereral Relativity and Quantum Field Theory. I also subscribe to scientific naturalism, which is a pretty minimalistic philosophy - basically, the only things that exist are what the natural sciences say exist - which rules out paranormalism and supernatural causes. (Actually, what does it mean to have supernatural causes? If they're causes that physically exist, wouldn't that make them natural? And if not, then wouldn't they be non-existent?)
And another thing - science, like James Randi, demands a very high amount of evidence for a theory. Even when scientists have accepted that theory, they continue to put it under severe strain. How else would there be progress? After all, QED is so accurate that it's correct to one part in 10^12, a million million! It's like knowing the size of North America from coast to coast to the width of a human hair! And even then we're not satisfied - such is why the LHC was constructed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Collider
I'll finish (I waffle a lot, don't I? :lol:) with two quotes from Richard Dawkins:
"There's real poetry in the real world. Science is the poetry of reality."
"We should be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brain falls out. "
Both from "The Enemies of Reason - Slaves to Superstition"

Zombie

01-12-2010, 11:06 PM

To me I feel she's proven herself to too many others that she's for real. And I don't say that to many "psychics". I don't think she needs to "prove" herself to anyone or accept someone elses money to take their "test".

How has she proven herself? Sylvia Browne is not only often wrong, but quite often, she's spectacularly wrong.

She told the missing Opal Jennings' parents that Opal had been abducted & sold into sexual slavery, and could be found at a certain town in Japan. Unfortunately, the town name she gave doesn't even exist, and Opal's remains were found about 13 miles from her home in Texas. Medical examiners determined she'd been killed within hours of her abduction. She was never in Japan. See also Shawn Hornbeck, Holly Krewson, Lynda McClelland, and Ryan Katcher.

Even worse than the terrible things she's been known to say to grieving people, I think, are her bad habits of dispensing sketchy medical advice without the benefit of being a doctor.

She told James Randi that he absolutely had something wrong with the left ventricle of his heart when they were on the Larry King Live show together. Subsequent medical testing showed his heart was absolutely fine.

She told another woman that her husband had died of "a clot" in his brain, when it was actually a hemorrhage. A clot is the exact opposite of a hemorrhage.

She told a woman who had been having pain in her stomach since a surgery and who had been to 30-odd doctors who couldn't find anything wrong that during her surgery, an instrument had been left in there and that was what was causing the pain. She told the woman to go to a new doctor, not tell him about the surgery or any previous things, and request an MRI which would show the instrument that had been left in her body. I don't know if the woman ever did follow that advice, but I hope not. If she really did have a surgical instrument left in her body as Sylvia said, and went to get an MRI as Sylvia told her to do, then the MRI would've ripped it right out of her body if the instrument happened to be metal. Bad idea.

I could go on.

Has she been "right" or nearly right some of the time? Sure. But if you say things constantly, you're eventually going to be right about some of those things you've said. That's what's called "shotgunning."

You'll see that when she's "right," her "correct" predictions are vague or just common sense stuff, such as her prediction that in August/September of 2004, "hurricanes will hit the Florida Keys and Mexico."

Did that happen? Yes. But August/September is well into hurricane season, and hurricanes have a habit of smacking into the Keys and Mexico. You don't need psychic powers to make that "prediction."

Does Sylvia Browne have to prove herself to anyone? As long as she's accepting money for trotting out her dog & pony show, absolutely she does.

And if she's so for real, what's wrong with actually going through with the Challenge she has accepted from James Randi? She doesn't have to keep that $1 million - she can donate it to charity, or refuse it entirely, if she's able to pass the test under the protocols that she herself agreed upon. If she can do it, why doesn't she go through with it? If she CAN'T do it, why did she accept the Challenge to begin with?

I'm pretty sure I know the answers to those last two questions.

To me, believing in man and science is a BAD thing because man will lead you to believe many things (his way) if you're not careful. That goes for a lot of churches too. I appreciate everyone's viewpoints on this and this issue always leads one way or the other and is to be expected. No one's ever "right" or "wrong" about it. It's our personal beliefs and views and what we feel about this whole thing. And that's ok ;) :thumbsup:

Being careful is, of course, important, which is why I said before that it's good to be open-minded, just not so open-minded that your brain falls out.

Are there people in the scientific community that are also intellectually dishonest? Absolutely. Biochemist Michael Behe is an excellent example of that, as is Deepak Chopra.

But science has given you many wonderful things, and to dismiss it out of hand is to do yourself and the world a grave disservice. Science is not "BAD." Without science, you wouldn't even be here right now to talk to us about Sylvia Browne. :shrug:

Fortunately, though, science does not ask you to believe in it. It doesn't need you - or anyone else, for that matter - to believe in it. Science isn't about belief. You can take any proper current scientific theory (and by "proper," I mean one like gravity or Biological Evolutionary Theory, not Intelligent Design) and we can examine its mechanisms and results any time we choose with verifiable means that can be measured, counted, qualified, quantified, and observed. Belief won't have to come into play, because we can look at what's there, and when we look, we will see the same thing - it's not subjective. The same cannot be said for so-called psychic abilities, which is why I said these people want to play baseball with hockey sticks.

If you decide you don't want to accept what's there, that's your thing, do what you wanna do - but it doesn't mean you're right and it's wrong. It will carry on doing what it does regardless of your feelings about it.

But all of that aside, if man and science can lead you astray, then so can Sylvia Browne. She's not exempt.

You walk up to total strangers and just know this stuff about them?

Absolutely, if I was well-trained in the fine art of cold reading, which is what Char Margolis does.

That's also what Sylvia Browne does. Cold reading is rather fascinating, actually, and I give them props for being so good at it, but it doesn't negate the fact that it's still cold reading.

daniellaaarisen

01-12-2010, 11:13 PM

All I know is that I'll be pissed if I can't watch my funeral/the immediate aftermath of my death from wherever I'll be :shrug:

LikeAWillow

01-12-2010, 11:52 PM

All I know is that I'll be pissed if I can't watch my funeral/the immediate aftermath of my death from wherever I'll be :shrug:

Ultimate narcissist :xoxo:

Just so lovingly teasing Dani isn't my only contribution to this thread, as much as the romantic in me would love to believe in spirits, I just can't bring my mind to get on bored. It doesn't make sense. Does anyone around here know anything about the inexplicable weight that your body loses after death, though? I remember hearing about it somewhere, and it sounds intriguing, but I've never actually looked into it myself.

Ghost_Tracker

01-13-2010, 12:05 AM

I'd like to put in my two cents on this; hopefully without anyone feeling that I'm getting on a soapbox or being preachy.

Here's what my thinking on this basically boils down to; and I really do feel that it's a reasonable way of looking at things - -

1.) There's certain "physical constants" that have to be EXACTLY the correct number in order for life to even be possible. I don't mean "life as we know it," necessarily, I mean that there CAN'T be life without it. One of them is called "Plank's constant," just to throw out an example. Those constants - EVERY SINGLE ONE of them - - - are EXACTLY what they need to be in order for life to exist.
I mean, that say a constant were 6.000003 instead of 6.000002 - there would be NO life. (Don't nail me on the percentages, anyone who knows more about this than I do - obviously I'm just throwing out random numbers in order to try to make my point.)

There's two and only two possibilities at that point, given the above.
The first is that there's literally millions of alternate universes, with an almost infinite number of physical constants, one of which - this one - just happens to have the correct ones. That's just absurd, it really is. And physicists think it's impossible from an energy point of view. The only other rational possibility at that point is design by intelligence. i.m.o., of course.

2.) Believe it or not, in some ways I think the universe is an incredibly SOFT place. Don't get me wrong, I know that many people have rough lives, etc., but that ultimately boils down to being someone's fault, not a problem with the design of the universe. Just for example, out of all the literally infinite possibilities, why should television be possible??? THINK about it, you have to have capacitors, resistors, metal has to be capable of broadcasting a signal, glass has to have properties which make it possible to put a coating of phosporous on it, the phosporous has to be able to glow certain colors to make the picture on the screen, the "electron gun" has to be able to shoot electrons at the screen in the first place - and that's an example from the 1940s. Computers are MUCH more complex than that. And I think natural chemical substances are the same way - water, for example, as the basis of life - - it has EXACTLY the properties which are necessary so that blood can bring nutrients and so on to the cells.

3.) Intelligence isn't necessary for life to reproduce. In fact, just the opposite is true. I'm not saying that evolution didn't happen. But it wasn't NECESSARY for intelligence to evolve. Especially not at such a high level. The existence of intelligence is (i.m.o.) contrary to the idea that everything evolved without any intelligent design. I feel that it just simply never would have happened; there's no REASON for it and so there's no impetus behind it - unless there was a Creator.

4.) I believe personally that the Big Bang happened. I think it's amazingly clear at this point. But the atheists try to point to that and say that it's evidence that there's no God. I think that's absurd; in fact, I feel that the exact opposite is true. Maybe I'm putting to much faith in "cause-and-effect" here, but it seems silly to me to think that all this would have come about in exactly this way (planets forming, etc.) without there being a "design" behind it. The odds are literally astronomical. But the MAIN thing is - it just simply never would have happened. TIME didn't even exist before the big bang. So it's not like there was this whole bunch of empty space waiting to be filled and all that happened is a few trillion years had to elapse until finally it happened randomly. There was no time. It just suddenly HAPPENED, and no one can understand why.

Here's another thing that's occurred to me - - - I'm not saying I DEFINITELY think it's true that there's a hell. But what if there IS? What if there's literally a one in a billion chance that if one doesn't at least make an honest effort to simply have Faith, then one will go to hell, LITERALLY for forever. I mean like, take 10 to the hundredth power years, and multiply that by a billion centuries. After that amount of time, God comes to you and says, so how do you like the VERY FIRST INCREDIBLY SMALL FRACTION OF A PART of burning in hell for forever? Some people feel that the idea of hell is absurd. My answer to that is - - - given what we're talking about here - - - SO WHAT!?

I also feel that the very complexity of the universe is something that indicates that there's a God. Things just simply don't have to be as complex as they are - time, space, physics, math, all of that stuff. Again, there's just no reason for it to be the way it is. There's literally an infinite number of other possibilities.

On top of all of that, I feel that there IS physical evidence that there is a God. An example is the (claimed) fact that the corpses of people who have been named as Saints have been dug up and examined (probably when being moved from one location to another, etc.) They don't decay, sometimes. That's FREAKY, and for me it's a "waker-upper." Another is these "out-of-body" experiences that people claim to have. I realize it can be argued that they're just dreams, but given the above, I don't see enough reason to question it.

Here's another idea that's occurred to me - - -

Maybe it's just this simple:

Is there a God?
Why WOULDN'T there be??? :blob2:

I feel that a bit of Faith is a healthy thing, and if I'm wrong, it just simply doesn't matter.

One other thing I'd like to point out - - - I feel that many people have certain misconceptions about the Catholic Church, and where they are in their thinking. (Not to open a whole can of worms, there...) MUCH of what people think is Dogma in the Catholic Church is actually just considered to be metaphor. The Adam and Eve story is a perfect example of that. Check out the New American Bible sometime, it flat-out says that the Adam and Eve story is an allegory and as much as admits that evolution probably happened.
These people aren't as stupid and uneducated as some people think they are, in fact, no where near. (i.m.o. again, of course.) And there's actually a Vatican Observatory - has been for centuries. I saw the astrophysicist/priest who runs it interviewed the other day, he's VERY bright and openly advocates, without any problems from higher-ups at the Vatican, the possibility of life on other planets and the big bang theory.

Anyway, when you put that all together, it boils down to a big huge yes for me, that there's probably a God. :)

Zombie

01-13-2010, 12:08 AM

Does anyone around here know anything about the inexplicable weight that your body loses after death, though? I remember hearing about it somewhere, and it sounds intriguing, but I've never actually looked into it myself.

Ahhh, the 21 Grams thing. There was a doctor once that decided to do experiments, positing that people weigh less after they die, because the soul has left the body and the soul must weigh something. He weighed dying people and he weighed dying dogs - you can read about him & his experiment here: http://www.snopes.com/religion/soulweight.asp

It's not "inexplicable weight," though. It can be explained by any number of factors, particularly within the confines of the experiment the good doctor there set up.

fringed n fab

01-13-2010, 12:24 AM

I'd like to put in my two cents on this; hopefully without anyone feeling that I'm getting on a soapbox or being preachy.

Here's what my thinking on this basically boils down to; and I really do feel that it's a reasonable way of looking at things - -

1.) There's certain "physical constants" that have to be EXACTLY the correct number in order for life to even be possible. I don't mean "life as we know it," necessarily, I mean that there CAN'T be life without it. One of them is called "Plank's constant," just to throw out an example. Those constants - EVERY SINGLE ONE of them - - - are EXACTLY what they need to be in order for life to exist.
I mean, that say a constant were 6.000003 instead of 6.000002 - there would be NO life. (Don't nail me on the percentages, anyone who knows more about this than I do - obviously I'm just throwing out random numbers in order to try to make my point.)

There's two and only two possibilities at that point, given the above.
The first is that there's literally millions of alternate universes, with an almost infinite number of physical constants, one of which - this one - just happens to have the correct ones. That's just absurd, it really is. And physicists think it's impossible from an energy point of view. The only other rational possibility at that point is design by intelligence. i.m.o., of course.

2.) Believe it or not, in some ways I think the universe is an incredibly SOFT place. Don't get me wrong, I know that many people have rough lives, etc., but that ultimately boils down to being someone's fault, not a problem with the design of the universe. Just for example, out of all the literally infinite possibilities, why should television be possible??? THINK about it, you have to have capacitors, resistors, metal has to be capable of broadcasting a signal, glass has to have properties which make it possible to put a coating of phosporous on it, the phosporous has to be able to glow certain colors to make the picture on the screen, the "electron gun" has to be able to shoot electrons at the screen in the first place - and that's an example from the 1940s. Computers are MUCH more complex than that. And I think natural things are the same way - water, for example, as the basis of life - - it has EXACTLY the properties which are necessary so that blood can bring nutrients and so on to the cells.

3.) Intelligence isn't necessary for life to reproduce. In fact, just the opposite is true. I'm not saying that evolution didn't happen. But it wasn't NECESSARY for intelligence to evolve. Especially not at such a high level. The existence of intelligence is (i.m.o.) contrary to the idea that everything evolved without any intelligent design to happen. I feel that it just simply never would have happened; there's no REASON for it and so there's no impetus behind it - unless there was a Creator.

4.) I believe personally that the Big Bang happened. I think it's amazingly clear at this point. But the atheists try to point to that and say that it's evidence that there's no God. I think that's absurd; in fact, I feel that the exact opposite is true. Maybe I'm putting to much faith in "cause-and-effect" here, but it seems silly to me to think that all this would have come about in exactly this way (planets forming, etc.) without there being a "design" behind it. The odds are literally astronomical. But the MAIN thing is - it just simply never would have happened. TIME didn't even exist before the big bang. So it's not like there was this whole bunch of empty space waiting to be filled and all that happened is a few trillion years had to elapse until finally it happened randomly. There was no time. It just suddenly HAPPENED, and no one can understand why.

Here's another thing that's occurred to me - - - I'm not saying I DEFINITELY think it's true that there's a hell. But what if there IS? What if there's literally a one in a billion chance that if one doesn't at least make an honest effort to simply have Faith, then one will go to hell, LITERALLY for forever. I mean like, take 10 to the hundredth power years, and multiply that by a billion centuries. After that amount of time, God comes to you and says, so how do you like the VERY FIRST INCREDIBLY SMALL FRACTION OF A PART of burning in hell for forever? Some people feel that the idea of hell is absurd. My answer to that is - - - given what we're talking about here - - - SO WHAT!?

I also feel that the very complexity of the universe is something that indicates that there's a God. Things just simply don't have to be as complex as they are - time, space, physics, math, all of that stuff. Again, there's just no reason for it to be the way it is. There's literally an infinite number of other possibilities.

On top of all of that, I feel that there IS physical evidence that there is a God. An example is the (claimed) fact that the corpses of people who have been named as Saints have been dug up and examined (probably when being moved from one location to another, etc.) They don't decay, sometimes. That's FREAKY, and for me it's a "waker-upper." Another is these "out-of-body" experiences that people claim to have. I realize it can be argued that they're just dreams, but given the above, I don't see enough reason to question it.

Here's another idea that's occurred to me - - -

Maybe it's just this simple:

Is there a God?
Why WOULDN'T there be??? :blob2:

I feel that a bit of Faith is a healthy thing, and if I'm wrong, it just simply doesn't matter.

One other thing I'd like to point out - - - I feel that many people have certain misconceptions about the Catholic Church, and where they are in their thinking. (Not to open a whole can of worms, there...) MUCH of what people think is Dogma in the Catholic Church is actually just considered to be metaphor. The Adam and Eve story is a perfect example of that. Check out the New American Bible sometime, it flat-out says that the Adam and Eve story is an allegory and as much as admits that evolution probably happened.
These people aren't as stupid and uneducated as some people think they are, in fact, no where near. (i.m.o. again, of course.) And there's actually a Vatican Observatory - has been for centuries. I saw the astrophysicist/priest who runs it interviewed the other day, he's VERY bright and openly advocates, without any problems from higher-ups at the Vatican, the possibility of life on other planets and the big bang theory.

Anyway, when you put that all together, it boils down to a big huge yes for me, that there's probably a God. :)
Well GT at least you believe in something. I always say I'd rather die believing in something, than nothing at all once the lights go out. To me that'd be one sad lonely death. I wouldn't want to be one of those people who don't even go through the whole afterlife tunnel experience and white light, and instead just horseshoe right back through the Left Door into another Godless creation again (if thats so*) There are good souls and there are dark souls for a reason. More on that later :laugh: but I've also heard and read from many people who've "visited" and described this sad, dark, lonely place, called The Holding Place, others may call it Purgatory, where theres nothing but sad, lonely depressed, LOST souls walking around all over with the blankest of expressions in their eyes and faces, and that is where ones are supposed to go until they recognize God or accept him and they'll remain there until they do so. I wouldn't want to be in such a place when I die. I want to go out at least believing in something than nothing at all in my heart. But that's just me and my beliefs. Everyone's free to believe what they will. This isn't church and I didn't start this thread to preach to anyone. Just stating what (I) believe.

Ghost_Tracker

01-13-2010, 12:27 AM

Everyone's free to believe what they will. This isn't church and I didn't start this thread to preach to anyone. Just stating what (I) believe.

Amen. ( :lol: )

Zombie

01-13-2010, 01:16 AM

1.) There's certain "physical constants" that have to be EXACTLY the correct number in order for life to even be possible. I don't mean "life as we know it," necessarily, I mean that there CAN'T be life without it. One of them is called "Plank's constant," just to throw out an example. Those constants - EVERY SINGLE ONE of them - - - are EXACTLY what they need to be in order for life to exist.
I mean, that say a constant were 6.000003 instead of 6.000002 - there would be NO life. (Don't nail me on the percentages, anyone who knows more about this than I do - obviously I'm just throwing out random numbers in order to try to make my point.)

There's two and only two possibilities at that point, given the above.
The first is that there's literally millions of alternate universes, with an almost infinite number of physical constants, one of which - this one - just happens to have the correct ones. That's just absurd, it really is. And physicists think it's impossible from an energy point of view. The only other rational possibility at that point is design by intelligence. i.m.o., of course.

Well, just because something looks like it was designed, doesn't mean it is/was designed. We do not have a definitely designed or definitely not-designed universe to compare ours to, so while it may sound good on the surface to say that the only "rational possibility" is design by intelligence, that's being a bit disingenuous. There's no basis for that.

I'd love to have the names of the physicists you are referring to, though, so I can check out their work. I am not aware of any physicists that say this.

However, I will say that I fail to see how the idea of Many Worlds is any more "absurd" than an invisible cosmic daddy in the sky designing things. ;)

And yes, if Planck's Constant were a different number, things might not work properly here for us or whatever - but that doesn't mean that it could NEVER be a different number. Perhaps there's another factor that would need to be adjusted along with Planck's Constant and everything would chug along just fine again.

2.) Believe it or not, in some ways I think the universe is an incredibly SOFT place. Don't get me wrong, I know that many people have rough lives, etc., but that ultimately boils down to being someone's fault, not a problem with the design of the universe. Just for example, out of all the literally infinite possibilities, why should television be possible??? THINK about it, you have to have capacitors, resistors, metal has to be capable of broadcasting a signal, glass has to have properties which make it possible to put a coating of phosporous on it, the phosporous has to be able to glow certain colors to make the picture on the screen, the "electron gun" has to be able to shoot electrons at the screen in the first place - and that's an example from the 1940s. Computers are MUCH more complex than that. And I think natural things are the same way - water, for example, as the basis of life - - it has EXACTLY the properties which are necessary so that blood can bring nutrients and so on to the cells.

Television is possible because a bunch of folks got together and figured out how to make one. Much in the same way a hammer is possible. Or a sanded block of wood. One need only observe that certain things have certain properties, and when combined, they make something else.

There are plenty of things you could stick together that won't make a TV, or a hammer, or a sanded block of wood. Just because we can stick some things together to make that happen is not evidence of design.

3.) Intelligence isn't necessary for life to reproduce. In fact, just the opposite is true. I'm not saying that evolution didn't happen. But it wasn't NECESSARY for intelligence to evolve. Especially not at such a high level. The existence of intelligence is (i.m.o.) contrary to the idea that everything evolved without any intelligent design. I feel that it just simply never would have happened; there's no REASON for it and so there's no impetus behind it - unless there was a Creator.

Why does there have to be a reason?

4.) I believe personally that the Big Bang happened. I think it's amazingly clear at this point. But the atheists try to point to that and say that it's evidence that there's no God. I think that's absurd; in fact, I feel that the exact opposite is true. Maybe I'm putting to much faith in "cause-and-effect" here, but it seems silly to me to think that all this would have come about in exactly this way (planets forming, etc.) without there being a "design" behind it. The odds are literally astronomical. But the MAIN thing is - it just simply never would have happened. TIME didn't even exist before the big bang. So it's not like there was this whole bunch of empty space waiting to be filled and all that happened is a few trillion years had to elapse until finally it happened randomly. There was no time. It just suddenly HAPPENED, and no one can understand why.

This atheist does not point to the Big Bang and say that's evidence there's no god. Nor do many atheists I know. This atheist does, however, point out respectfully that if there can be a First Cause that is an Uncaused Cause (aka a god), then the Big Bang could also be an Uncaused Cause, particularly if, as you said before, intelligence isn't necessary for life to reproduce. Why should it be necessary for the origins of the universe?

Here's another thing that's occurred to me - - - I'm not saying I DEFINITELY think it's true that there's a hell. But what if there IS? What if there's literally a one in a billion chance that if one doesn't at least make an honest effort to simply have Faith, then one will go to hell, LITERALLY for forever. I mean like, take 10 to the hundredth power years, and multiply that by a billion centuries. After that amount of time, God comes to you and says, so how do you like the VERY FIRST INCREDIBLY SMALL FRACTION OF A PART of burning in hell for forever? Some people feel that the idea of hell is absurd. My answer to that is - - - given what we're talking about here - - - SO WHAT!?

Which god should I have faith in to make sure I don't go to his/her bad place? How do I know which is the right one? I don't think I have enough time in a day to make sure I'm doing all the right things for all of the god ideas out there.

Can I not just be a decent human being, and on the off-chance that there is an afterlife, be okay, on account of I'm a good person?

It would take a lot of time out of all of our days if we had to pay proper respects and do all the right things for each and every deity out there to avoid going to his or her respective potential Bad Place.

I also feel that the very complexity of the universe is something that indicates that there's a God. Things just simply don't have to be as complex as they are - time, space, physics, math, all of that stuff. Again, there's just no reason for it to be the way it is. There's literally an infinite number of other possibilities.

That's just it - "things just simply don't have to be" full stop. They don't have to be created or designed. They don't have to be NOT created or NOT designed, either - we just haven't got any empirical evidence for that yet. I'm keeping my eyes peeled, though.

On top of all of that, I feel that there IS physical evidence that there is a God. An example is the (claimed) fact that the corpses of people who have been named as Saints have been dug up and examined (probably when being moved from one location to another, etc.) They don't decay, sometimes. That's FREAKY, and for me it's a "waker-upper." Another is these "out-of-body" experiences that people claim to have. I realize it can be argued that they're just dreams, but given the above, I don't see enough reason to question it.

Lots of bodies don't decay sometimes. It depends on where and how they were buried - the chemical makeup of the soil, the type of tomb. They've pulled ancient bodies out of bogs in Scotland that didn't decay much, due to the chemicals and such in the bog perserving them. All sorts of things factor into that.

And out of body experiences may also just be the workings of the human brain, which is a fascinating and wonderful device we should all be pleased to have.

Here's another idea that's occurred to me - - -

Maybe it's just this simple:

Is there a God?
Why WOULDN'T there be??? :blob2:

Well, and why WOULD there be? It goes both ways, no?

I feel that a bit of Faith is a healthy thing, and if I'm wrong, it just simply doesn't matter.

One other thing I'd like to point out - - - I feel that many people have certain misconceptions about the Catholic Church, and where they are in their thinking. (Not to open a whole can of worms, there...) MUCH of what people think is Dogma in the Catholic Church is actually just considered to be metaphor. The Adam and Eve story is a perfect example of that. Check out the New American Bible sometime, it flat-out says that the Adam and Eve story is an allegory and as much as admits that evolution probably happened.

These people aren't as stupid and uneducated as some people think they are, in fact, no where near. (i.m.o. again, of course.) And there's actually a Vatican Observatory - has been for centuries. I saw the astrophysicist/priest who runs it interviewed the other day, he's VERY bright and openly advocates, without any problems from higher-ups at the Vatican, the possibility of life on other planets and the big bang theory.

Anyway, when you put that all together, it boils down to a big huge yes for me, that there's probably a God. :)

I was raised very strict Catholic - doilies on the head and mass 3 times a week and CCD for years and all of that - and here I agree with you. There are many misconceptions about what the Catholic Church believes. JPII was fine with evolution, for example, though Ratzinger seems to be messing that up a bit now.

In fact, it was a priest when I was about 10 that taught me how to view the Bible with a critical eye and read it for the beautiful stories, metaphors and life lessons it contains, rather than taking it as literal truth. Thanks, Father Palko! You were awesome.

Zombie

01-13-2010, 01:27 AM

Well GT at least you believe in something. I always say I'd rather die believing in something, than nothing at all once the lights go out. To me that'd be one sad lonely death. I wouldn't want to be one of those people who don't even go through the whole afterlife tunnel experience and white light, and instead just horseshoe right back through the Left Door into another Godless creation again (if thats so*) There are good souls and there are dark souls for a reason. More on that later :laugh: but I've also heard and read from many people who've "visited" and described this sad, dark, lonely place, called The Holding Place, others may call it Purgatory, where theres nothing but sad, lonely depressed, LOST souls walking around all over with the blankest of expressions in their eyes and faces, and that is where ones are supposed to go until they recognize God or accept him and they'll remain there until they do so. I wouldn't want to be in such a place when I die. I want to go out at least believing in something than nothing at all in my heart. But that's just me and my beliefs. Everyone's free to believe what they will. This isn't church and I didn't start this thread to preach to anyone. Just stating what (I) believe.

Well, that's creepy. And also presumptuous.

Everyone's free to believe what they will, except if they don't believe in something you deem okay, they're sad and lonely and depressed, and the only way they get out of it is to "recognize God or accept him"?

I believe in lots of things. Myself, for example. I'm awesome. My kids - they're amazing little people that will grow up into amazing big people if I play my cards right. My family, both biological and the one I've created for myself - they're awesome, too.

I believe in my friends. The healing power of chocolate. The beauty of nature. The wonder I experience when I look up at the sky, whether it's day or night, and imagine all the possibilities it presents us.

I believe in a good education, and that reading is fundamental - if you can read, you can do anything. I believe everyone out there that you run into has something to teach you, whether it's positive or negative, so you should probably listen up.

I believe in all sorts of things. As an atheist, though, I just believe in one less god than you do (unless you're polytheist, in which case I believe in several less gods than you do, but you get my drift, I'm sure).

fringed n fab

01-13-2010, 01:46 AM

Zombie

01-13-2010, 02:11 AM

I wasn't condemning anyone, just stating my beliefs on things. Those are (mine) as I stressed. That's all. You seem to want to argue with me with every post when I never wanted to. I posted my thoughts and views and you've made yours clear as well. Can't you just leave things at that? So you're Athiest. You've made that point clear. I believe there's a God and a spiritual world and made that clear. Let's just leave it at that. This thread wasn't meant to be controversial or preachy. I just wanted to hear what others might have to say. I'm sure there are many on here who are just leaving the subject alone rather than discuss it. And that's fine too.

Well, you wanted to hear what others might have to say, so I am telling you what I have to say. I'm genuinely curious as to why you feel or think or believe the way you do. That's why I ask you questions, like, "How has Sylvia Browne proven herself to be real?" and present you with several reasons why I think she has done the exact opposite. That's me making what information I have available to me likewise available to you, so you can do the same. That's how you have a discussion, I thought.

I'm not arguing with you in any disrespectful manner. I'm not badgering you or calling you names or saying I think you are silly or anything like that. I'm just responding to what you (and others) have posted - if you didn't want responses, why post? Or, if you do want responses, just not the kind I have - perhaps you should just say that?

If you do want to show me why you think/feel/believe what you do, I am still curious. I like to hear different viewpoints, gives me a chance to see if I haven't examined something as thoroughly as I should have or if I'm missing something.

You take care now,
Annie

fringed n fab

01-13-2010, 02:26 AM

Annie, anyone is free to post their thoughts and views on all of this stuff. I just never wanted it to be some controversial thread or become preachy to anyone. I just found some of this stuff interesting and wanted to share it. We are all free to feel and believe what we want and what feels right in our own heart and minds. I'm not shying away from any questions, I just don't want to put anyone through the mill why they believe the way they do. That includes you. To me it's enough that we state our opinion on it and leave things at that. People like Sylvia Browne and Char are not to be worshipped like some cult and they will tell you that. They are not God, just simply delivering messages from some higher realm and if you believe them, great, if not, that's fine too. I just find the things they have to say quite fascinating and that's all. Everyone has the right to believe in this stuff or not. But as far as spirituality and ghosts and all that, yes I do believe in them because like others, I've seen them, felt them, had weird "dreams" where I've been in another place that I know was not from this dimension, where I knew my body was still lying there on that bed. Some sort of astral projection maybe where we're known to leave our bodies in sleep all the time and wander around? I don't know. Maybe you have to "go through" some of this to understand any of it. But I know what I saw and felt. I don't take any drugs. I never have. So you can't blame it on that. And neither has my mother when she's had her encounters before with flying dishes coming out of no where. Maybe some people have to witness this stuff and go through it to ever understand it. Maybe it has to happen to you. But never begrudge the ones it has happened to.

Zombie

01-13-2010, 02:53 AM

^^^^^

Well, see, I can get behind that. And I didn't think the thread was getting controversial or preachy, so I'm sorry if I made you feel that way.

Also, I admire your chutzpah (and your boots, if that's you in your sig pic).

I have experienced "odd" things before. One of my friends is someone that does believe in ghosts, spirits, the supernatural, etc, though her beliefs as regards deities, I've never been able to nail down exactly - and we've been together when some of those "odd" things happened.

The difference, though, I think, is in how we're wired. While she may experience the "odd" thing and automatically deduce it was somehow supernatural or spiritual or ghost-y or whatever, I'm busy trying to rule out every possible natural explanation I can before I go, "Well, huh."

And I have run into a few "Well, huh" moments where I cannot find a natural explanation to explain what happened. But to me, that doesn't mean there's no natural explanation at all - it just means maybe I'm not looking at it right or I can't see it yet. Maybe I will figure it out later, and maybe I won't. Either is fine with me.

I have long thought that perhaps some of us are wired to have the ability to believe in these things and some of us are not. I went through many years of my life thinking I was somehow broken or defective, because try as I might when I was at Mass or in CCD or youth group, I just didn't "get it." I thought everyone around me was somehow hearing that "small, still voice" and I was broken because I couldn't hear it, too. I thought God was mad at me. I couldn't figure out why everyone else could do this, but I couldn't - after all, I'm smart, I understand what they're telling me I need to do, I'm doing it...but it's not working. And I tried. Oh man, did I try. I tried everything I knew how. Heck, I can still recite the entire Mass in Latin off the top of my head. I was freakin' determined.

But no matter what I did, it didn't work. So I gave up on being Catholic and tried other things. I visited various Protestant churches, I hurt my head trying to talk to the Mormons that came to the door (apologies to any Mormons on the board, but the guys y'all sent to my neck of the woods had a hard time stringing a full sentence together :distress:), I questioned the Jehovah's Witnesses relentlessly, I spent a summer living with pagans of various stripes, I pestered the Jewish folk I knew as much as they would tolerate (which wasn't much, fair enough, I don't blame 'em). I read everything I could get my hands on, and talked to everyone I could. And by the end of it all, I just realized that none of it was going to work for me. The only things I was truly able to examine and say, "Yes! I see that! I understand!" were things based on empirical evidence, things based in science.

So that's why, when someone says, "This person is psychic, see?" I say, "Well...why? They also said this and this and they were wrong, so couldn't it be this or this?" It's not because I want to pick a fight or rain on anyone's parade, it's because when I hear something like that, I want to hear everything about that - I want to know as much about it as I can. Perhaps, if I knew everything you know, I would also think it is so, but even if what you have to say is not enough to sway my opinion, I will at least know I did what I could to develop an informed opinion on the subject.

louielouie2000

01-13-2010, 02:54 AM

I've had several things happen to me that I personally place meaning to... that others may discount. I'll share my experiences, and everyone can come to their own conclusions.

I've been in two serious car accidents in my life. The first occurred when I was 18. It was early in the morning, and I was on my way to my summer job: I worked as an assistant ranger at a State Park out in the middle of nowhere. I was on a deserted back highway on a big sweeping curve when I noticed 2 little girls walking their puppy by the road. Suddenly the dog darted out in front of me, and I swerved around it... not wanting to cream the poor girl's puppy right in front of them. This made my car start fish-tailing violently... and I lost control of the car, it flew into a ditch, and flipped over. I unlatched my seatbelt and crawled out of the car unharmed. Before I knew it, there was a woman standing beside me who said she was a nurse. She handed me a bottle of water, and her cell phone and told me to call my parents, which I did. I don't know that I ever looked up at her.

Fast forward 3 years. I'd just finished a 12 hour job of putting a new water pump in my DeLorean car at my parents house. I needed to have the job finished so I could be back at college for classes the next morning. I finally got the car finished up well into the night, packed my things in it, and hit the road for the 2.5 hour trek back to school. In the middle of nowhere I saw a giant old Cadillac suddenly run off the road, and I instantly knew the car would overcompensate and come straight for me... which it did. All I had time to do was floor it, and swerve my car before the Cadillac careened into me. My car spun around 200 degrees, and came to a rest. I tried frantically to get out... but my door was jammed shut. I hopped over to the passenger side... also jammed. About that time I noticed my driver's window didn't have any glass left in it, so I crawled out unharmed. Again, almost immediately, I had a woman standing beside me and telling me she was a nurse. She handed me a bottle of water, and told me to call my parents. I did as I was told... and again, didn't look up at her face.

I didn't put two and two together until I was in the hospital being checked out after the second wreck. Every time I think about the accidents now I get chills. I've never been a religious person at all... but this was a flashing billboard for me. People can interpret my story how they will, but I know the conclusion I've drawn from my first hand experience.

This is a picture of me with my DeLorean the day after my accident. My Mother has always sworn that all the orbs around me were angels. The orbs are in both pictures. I didn't even pay attention to them until my Mother pointed them out. I'm not sure I'm an orb believer... but here are the pictures anyway:

http://www.dmcnews.com/mydmc/10115wreck_louie.jpg

http://www.dmcnews.com/mydmc/10115wreck2_louie.jpg

fringed n fab

01-13-2010, 03:07 AM

fringed n fab

01-13-2010, 03:16 AM

fringed n fab

01-13-2010, 03:40 AM

So now that we're on the topic of orbs appearing in photos and stuff like Louie's above, a few years back on aol one day in the chat we all got on the subject of ghosts and weird happenings and one of my buddies who I knew was always very spiritual in his beliefs, he was talking openly in the room about this "being" he always felt was around him and following him around all the time everywhere he'd go. But that he never felt at all threatened by it or anything, things felt more like it was watching over him all the time or something. And then he IM'ed me and said "I want to show you something. Let me know what you think?" and he sent me a picture. In the picture, plain as day on a bright sunny morning with the sun shining through the back seat of his Camaro, was this orb figure of a man in what looked to be some sort of Civil War get up with a hat on, sitting right behind his driver seat. And he asked me "Do you see it?" and I replied "Yes I do" and I asked him what it was he thought, and he said he felt it was someone just watching over him and had been doing it for quite a while. And he never felt it was threatening. I had asked him well have you ever tried talking to it or calling it out or anything? You should tell it it's dead and to go Home or something. But he said he never wanted to do that for fear of maybe making it upset or something so he just left it alone. I had this photo forever but over time I must have lost it switching different computers over time. But it was clearly not a doctored photo. It looked just like a ghost figure to me that was clearly see through in appearance and sitting right directly behind his driver seat with the morning sun shining through it. And I totally believe what I saw and what he told me. I knew his personal beliefs on this kind of stuff and I knew he would never be one to play any games about it. Beings appearing in photos have happened to quite many people.

louielouie2000

01-13-2010, 04:05 AM

That's so weird Louie! How come we didn't point any of that out before when you showed us the pictures? (smh) but I totally believe you. And I don't think you're nuts. From what you've described it sounds very much like some kind of guide or guardian angel has been watching over you. We're all supposed to have them and I'm sure if you ever asked a noted psychic* (lol) they can tell you the names of them and most likely describe these beings to you to a "T" without you having to say a thing. Too many people have had your experiences so please never think you're delusional or nutty. I'm just glad I'm not the only one who's experienced some of these unexplained things and I'm glad you made it out safe both times. Sounds to me you're definitely being watched over. :)

I've actually had quite a few things happen to me throughout my life which have been affirmations of an afterlife, God, angels/spirits, psychic knowledge, etc. I think I'm probably more sensitive/in tune than most to such things.

For starters, I tend to have psychic dreams. The problem is they're totally pointless. I'll have a very vivid dream of a red house next to a strange field strewn with large boulders... then several years later I will drive past that exact house and field while visiting a state I'd never been to. That kind of stuff happens to me all of the time. Totally random, useless images are fed to me in my dreams... and years later, they'll come true. It's never anything pivotal or even meaningful. They just turn out to be exact impressions of places I've never been before... and one day end up in. Never famous places I've read about or seen on TV, just totally pointless random places.

On another subject, the house I grew up in seemed to have a poltergeist. One day when I was 15 I was in my room, bending down to pick up a sock, and I felt a hand give me a shove in the middle of my back. I turned around screaming and cursing, thinking it was my Mother trying to scare me. It was then I realized that my Mother was out of town shopping for the day... talk about chills. 10 years after that incident, I had taken one of my college friends home to meet my family. Over breakfast the next morning he said the most interesting thing happened when he was about to get in bed the previous night. He said he felt a hand on his back shove him down when he was about to turn off the bedside lamp. I never told my friend or ANYONE about the hand incident that happened to me 10 years earlier, so this wasn't something planted in his mind.

The last house I lived in also had a ghost whom I affectionately called Robert. Some people saw him, others didn't. I was single at the time... and I'd bring lots of new people into the house. I never told anyone about the ghost at first. Some people would sense him as soon as they walked in the door... and would say so (without me ever having brought him up). They'd point over towards the bedrooms, and say they feel or see something over there. Which is where Robert always was. He would always be seen walking in the little hall between the bedrooms and bathroom. Never anywhere else. Robert was fairly vapory and indistinct and was always just a flash... but everyone unequivocally knew he was a man. What's interesting about Robert is just as soon as several months had gone by, and you forgot he was there... boom! He'd walk out of the bathroom and go into my bedroom! :laugh:

The funny thing is, even after all of these encounters, I still don't entirely know if I believe my own experiences. Years and years later I'm still questioning whether or not they were what I thought they were. Was I simply seeing flashes of light or reflections? Was my poltergeist just a twitching nerve, or an overactive imagination? What about the other people who experienced the same things? Whatever the case, this is the stuff that makes life worth living. The unknown. I'm glad not everything is literal, tangible, and measurable. There needs to be some mystery out there, unsolved answers. We need to always be asking new questions. People who think they have all of the answers bug me. We all need to accept there are things out there we just know nothing about.

LukeA

01-13-2010, 04:46 AM

For starters, I tend to have psychic dreams. The problem is they're totally pointless. I'll have a very vivid dream of a red house next to a strange field strewn with large boulders... then several years later I will drive past that exact house and field while visiting a state I'd never been to. That kind of stuff happens to me all of the time. Totally random, useless images are fed to me in my dreams... and years later, they'll come true. It's never anything pivotal or even meaningful. They just turn out to be exact impressions of places I've never been before... and one day end up in. Never famous places I've read about or seen on TV, just totally pointless random places.

I once had a very specific dream involving a completely random particular business in a particular city. I couldn't recall hearing of either before and had no idea why on earth I could have thought of them, so I scrawled it out while half-asleep and went back to bed. I went to the library a few days later (me, being 8 and this being 1990)- sure enough, it was a real town (not anywhere near I had any kind of association) and a real business (not in any field I had a particular interest in/association with).

This happens to me all the time. At least once a week. Not just businesses/cities... people. Movies. Artists. Animals. Anything. I stopped counting after the first couple dozen. I don't chalk it up to anything supernatural or otherwise psychic, though- I've just always cast a wide net in terms of my interests & research subjects, and my photographic memory subconsciously collects things I ultimately have zero conscious recollection of.

fringed n fab

01-13-2010, 04:58 AM

Whatever the case, this is the stuff that makes life worth living. The unknown. I'm glad not everything is literal, tangible, and measurable. There needs to be some mystery out there, unsolved answers. We need to always be asking new questions. People who think they have all of the answers bug me. We all need to accept there are things out there we just know nothing about.
I agree! And it's nice to know I'm not the only one who's experienced things myself or known of others who have. I think some people are just scared or confused or whatever to open up and talk about it. And that's ok. I would think what's happened to you on several occasions is very real. And I think the more we open our minds and "tune in" the more things you might see and hear. I think that's why true psychics are able to see and hear/feel so much. Because they've opened themselves up to it and are tuned in. I wouldn't easily write off your little "trips" in dreams. From my understanding and personal experience, we all have them all the time, sometimes we awake to remember what just happened, sometimes we awaken and don't remember a thing. Sometimes, if you've had ones like I've had on a couple occasions in recent years, you lie there and are not even asleep yet but literally will feel yourself bounce out of your body and then be in another place you can instantly feel is not of this world, and I'm in that moment living and feeling whats all around me and the smells... the smells are things I can't explain but are very real.. all the while I know I'm still right there on that bed and I then try and snap out of it to get back to "here". People may think you're nuts and crazy, but unless you've ever had this happen to you it's hard to explain. But astral projection is very real and can happen whether you want it to or not. It's just a natural thing, us leaving our bodies going on little "trips" and then popping back in. I feel weird when it's happened. I certainly wasn't preparing for it. But I take comfort in knowing I'm not the only person it happens to. And from what you described about having "dreams" where you envision places you've been to before, well maybe you have? Maybe we all have. Sometimes I wonder if the places I "go to" when I have those out of body experiences are places I may have been before? :cool: It's hard to understand unless it's happened to you so I hope fellow Ledgies won't come at us with the white jackets just yet lol.

jaycee

01-13-2010, 06:13 AM

I've had an out of body experience. It was at the start of a physics exam in November 2008. I felt like I was standing behind myself! It's certainly something that leaves you shaken up a bit! :laugh:
However, to go on and say that it's a supernatural phenomenon, like your "spirit" leaving you, is jumping to conclusions far too hastily:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out-of-body_experience#Neurology_and_OBE-like_experiences
(And I was able to reclaim my composure and pass the exam, in case you were wondering. I spent a couple of minutes staring blankly at my exam paper, shakily musing over what I'd experienced, but managed to remind myself of the importance of the exam, and hopped to it!)
It's probably worth saying this, even it you don't believe me - it's not like I'm a skeptic that wants to suck the fascination and mysteriousness out of "supernatural" phenomena... basically, I'm not a killjoy! It's just that I'm interested in finding out how the universe actually works. And, for better or worse, non-physical explanations of phenomena simply aren't true.
Something else worth saying - the universe will always, always be more incredible than we can imagine! :nod: So we shouldn't do to it the insulting disservice of making up simple, anthropocentric beliefs about its workings! :distress:

holidayroad

01-13-2010, 09:24 AM

That's terrible! It would never occur to me to send a letter to a religious family in my town calling them names for being religious. I'm sorry that you have to deal with that.

Thank you for saying this. It helps to know that there are understanding people out there! :)

holidayroad

01-13-2010, 09:26 AM

Wait- you're telling me people who identify themselves as religious are also timid & hypocritical? :rolleyes:

(I'm very sorry that you have to deal with such idiots)

Thanks! Hypocritical....some!! Timid....:laugh:

holidayroad

01-13-2010, 09:45 AM

The house I lived in for four years (2001-2005) definitely had some kind of spirits/ghosts. I believe they were children. My husband and I would often hear sounds like a music box being played and children laughing. They were often mischievous. They would tickle my husbands feet while he was trying to sleep. They would put toys in my son's crib. Something broke the wheels off of my son's crib, as well. Once, when my mom and sister were visiting from out of town, they were totally freaked out. My sister was sleeping on an air mattress in our living room. My mom sleeping on the couch beside it. There was maybe 6 inches between the couch and mattress. One morning, my mom awakened me and said "Please tell me you put that vase there." I had no idea what she was talking about. Turns out that this small vase that we had on our end table was placed between the mattress and the couch. It couldn't have just fallen off the table or anything. The vase came with a seperate bowl and the vase was set in the bowl, right in between the couch and the mattress. We don't have any ghosts in our new house and we kind of miss them. I'd love to ask the people living in the other house if they have seen anything!

Ghost_Tracker

01-13-2010, 04:11 PM

Well, just because something looks like it was designed, doesn't mean it is/was designed. We do ...

...In fact, it was a priest when I was about 10 that taught me how to view the Bible with a critical eye and read it for the beautiful stories, metaphors and life lessons it contains, rather than taking it as literal truth. Thanks, Father Palko! You were awesome.

To be honest I don't have the energy to argue against any of this right now. You've made some good points; so let's just leave it there.
Except I'll just say that science is a Faith too, based on observations of the Universe and a certain point-of-view.

One other thing I'd like to emphasize though, is the tv example. What I meant was that the materials that go INTO a tv set (or computer, medical scanner, etc.) happen to have EXACTLY the properties which are necessary in order to make them possible IF PEOPLE SEARCH FOR THEM. That, too me, seems like something that's extremely unlikely to happen "on its own."

Does there HAVE to be an underlying, first "cause?"
Well, technically no, I guess not -
But I feel that it's a rational possibility that there might be. :)

fringed n fab

01-13-2010, 04:23 PM

Ghost_Tracker

01-13-2010, 04:50 PM

Ghosts can be playful, especially with children. Or they can be mischievous. It just depends. I really think to ghosts, we're the intruders in their world and that's why they can appear upset sometimes or make loud noises etc. People may sit and judge us for talking about this and offer every explanation in the book but maybe these things have to happen to them for them to understand.

I'm surprised this hasn't come up; but Stevie once told a story about encountering a ghost at a castle or maybe a chatteau that she was staying at in England. Pretty sure it was in Rolling Stone - it was part of an interview. It's easily findable on Nicksfix.
Personally I think the reporter should have pressed her for more information; I received an overall impression that Stevie was "holding out" on her... ;)

fringed n fab

01-13-2010, 05:13 PM

I had never heard of such stuff until very recently but apparently this kind of thing has happened all across the world and that is the creation of a Tulpa. If you concentrate and clearly think or meditate about something for so long, it becomes real. And this scares the **** out of me I won't lie! And I don't feel it's something to dabble with really. These creatures once created can take on mischievous lives of their own and have to be destroyed by their creators from my understanding. EEERIE!!!!

In mysticism a tulpa is the concept of a being or object which is created through sheer willpower alone. It is a materialized thought that has taken physical form and is usually regarded as synonymous to a thoughtform.

The term comes from the works of Alexandra David-Neel, who claimed to have created a tulpa in the image of a jolly, Friar Tuck-like monk which later developed a life of its own and had to be destroyed.

Fringed n Fab talking-

Ok this stuff was especially weird when I read about it because I remember when I was 15 we had these weird neighbors who lived next door to our old house and people always said they dabbled in witchcraft (occult) stuff sometimes and I had even asked their two teenaged daughters who we went to school with about it and they had told me yes, their dad did at times dabble in it and they all would sometimes see this hairy little creature appear from out of the walls and run across the room into the other wall and disappear into it. They even had a name for it. So time passes by and another neighbor woman, she was a lot older than all of us, she was talking about the time she was over there visiting and this thing appeared from out of the wall and came out into the room and then ran into the other wall, again disappearing into it. And when I say that, I mean it went into the wall literally. No holes there, nothing. CREEPY I know. But anyway this thing had scared the neighbor lady so bad that she wouldn't ever step foot in their house again unless she had a ball bat with her. So years later I wonder if that very creature was some kind of Tulpa their weird father had created. Because he had a name for it and everything and these people were just wierd.

fringed n fab

01-13-2010, 05:18 PM

I'm surprised this hasn't come up; but Stevie once told a story about encountering a ghost at a castle or maybe a chatteau that she was staying at in England. Pretty sure it was in Rolling Stone - it was part of an interview. It's easily findable on Nicksfix.
Personally I think the reporter should have pressed her for more information; I received an overall impression that Stevie was "holding out" on her... ;)

I think Stevie's a very spiritual person, but in the good way. So it's funny so many on this board have issues with it, when FM and Stevie have dealt with visions, and crystal balls, and Buddhist decor in their homes, on album covers, they've talked about it, wrote mysterious songs about this stuff. So I find it quite funny that people question us when we're talking about some of the very things this group has written about for 30 years. :shrug:

"She was dark at the top of the stairs"

Zombie

01-13-2010, 06:18 PM

To be honest I don't have the energy to argue against any of this right now. You've made some good points; so let's just leave it there.
Except I'll just say that science is a Faith too, based on observations of the Universe and a certain point-of-view.

One other thing I'd like to emphasize though, is the tv example. What I meant was that the materials that go INTO a tv set (or computer, medical scanner, etc.) happen to have EXACTLY the properties which are necessary in order to make them possible IF PEOPLE SEARCH FOR THEM. That, too me, seems like something that's extremely unlikely to happen "on its own."

Does there HAVE to be an underlying, first "cause?"
Well, technically no, I guess not -
But I feel that it's a rational possibility that there might be. :)

All righty. I'll leave it. :wavey:

But I do have to add one respectful disagreement: science does not involve faith. Faith, by definition, is belief in things unseen or for which there is no proof. Science is in the business of finding proof.

And I do not deny the possibility that there might be a god, either. That would be entirely hypocritical of me. :laugh:

estranged4life

01-13-2010, 06:42 PM

Ghosts can be playful, especially with children. Or they can be mischievous. It just depends.

because I sense Debbie's presence in the house all the time, Especially if I am sitting at the computer desk, because when she was among the living she would lean over my shoulder to look at the PC screen if I wanted to show her something of interest on the screen. I can feel a cold touch on my shoulders that only Debbie would provide, but noone is here (Minus the cats) besides me.

I wouldn't put it past her dropping the remains of her HP Pavilion (Which, I...uh...broke...) onto my head as I sleep as a way of reminding me she is watching over me...

Of course when I go to the cemetery I ask her aloud for the lottery numbers, I can hear her reply being "f**k you, If I have 'em I'm using 'em".

carrie721

01-13-2010, 06:43 PM

I think Stevie's a very spiritual person, but in the good way. So it's funny so many on this board have issues with it, when FM and Stevie have dealt with visions, and crystal balls, and Buddhist decor in their homes, on album covers, they've talked about it, wrote mysterious songs about this stuff. So I find it quite funny that people question us when we're talking about some of the very things this group has written about for 30 years. :shrug:

"She was dark at the top of the stairs"

there is a difference between appreciating something that was created due to a belief in the otherworldly and believing the otherworldly.

if i refused to appreciate art that was based on religion, mythology, or archetypes, i could never read another book, watch another movie, or listen to another album ever again.

that argument has no validity.

and as for a lack of faith leading to a dark and depressing existence, i can speak from experience and deny that categorically.

i do not believe in god, an afterlife, heaven, or hell. but i have a wonderful life. i have good friends and opportunities and i am grateful every day for their existence.

on the other hand, i know plenty of people for whom belief in the fantastic is a source of sadness, guilt, and fear.

happiness and hope are the result of choices everyone, whether or not they believe in god, makes.

correlation is not causation.

Ghost_Tracker

01-13-2010, 06:48 PM

All righty. I'll leave it. :wavey:

But I do have to add one respectful disagreement: science does not involve faith. Faith, by definition, is belief in things unseen or for which there is no proof. Science is in the business of finding proof.

But proof is based on data which is obtained with instruments, etc. that ultimately involve the senses. And it's based on statements - in human language - that there's "a 95% probability that such-and-such is true." So it's also a faith-based perspective.

I'm not saying that with any "disrespect" towards science, as a matter of fact I LOVE science and all of its underlying concepts -
including it's fundamental precepts, for example that it's a faith-based perspective. ;)

(i.m.o. many or even most people who work in science would agree with me, even if was with a little bit of a chuckle.) :p

carrie721

01-13-2010, 06:52 PM

But proof is based on data which is obtained with instruments, etc. that ultimately involve the senses.

how is this not the exact opposite of faith? :laugh:

i will accept that science employs a degree of faith in that you have to accept a handful of givens in order to get anything done. we may never know how or why the universe was formed, although there are theories that try to explain it. but that doesn't detract from the hard facts about our reality that have been illuminated by science. nor does it make science a "faith" a la christianity, judaism, scientology, etc.

tilthefirefades

01-13-2010, 07:29 PM

forgive me for being a nihilist, but why does there have to be a point in anything? other than to make yourself happy before all else. There are many interesting viewpoints and philosophies floating around out there, and i would find it to be such a depressing existence to live my life based on someone else's words and ideas. Also, if there is a God, they made me so why haven't they instilled faith in me? They know what i'm doing, after all it is my destiny that they allegedly created. I'm not looking for scripture, or an answer really. But science, in it's most primitive form, is what was used to write the scriptures and record it all. Also, one thing i've always wondered, those that were around before modern religion existed, where did they end up after death? And that brings me back to my first statement, why do we have to go anywhere after death? Maybe we should appreciate and enjoy everything in this life before we start expecting another. It's as if people want to half-ass their opportunities in this life so that they can completely start over in the next one.

Ghost_Tracker

01-13-2010, 07:57 PM

how is this not the exact opposite of faith? :laugh:

i will accept that science employs a degree of faith in that you have to accept a handful of givens in order to get anything done. we may never know how or why the universe was formed, although there are theories that try to explain it. but that doesn't detract from the hard facts about our reality that have been illuminated by science. nor does it make science a "faith" a la christianity, judaism, scientology, etc.

Hard facts about reality such as the existence of matter?
Well, if you haven't learned about that yet, you might find it interesting to look it up. "Matter" is just an energy wave which is only explained by a mathematical equation which doesn't REALLY tell us what it is. And it's not possible to "look at" it without changing it; and it's not possible for "matter" to have both its momentum and its location measured at the same time. I don't mean that it's not possible for US, I mean that it's not possible. Period. The implications are literally staggering - a physicist once said, "Anyone who hasn't been absolutely FLOORED by Heisenberg and Shroedinger can't POSSIBLY have understood it." This isn't some "far-out there" idea that I'm rambling about, it's mainstream "established science" - there's essentially no such thing as matter, it's just a form of energy that doesn't even have a specific location in space.

My point is that science has shown is that "cold hard reality" is anything but; and at the very least is something which is extremely elusive, mysterious, and not at all understood, even at the simplist levels.

Just some thoughts.

jannieC

01-13-2010, 10:24 PM

Sylvia brown is a <a href="http://stopsylvia.com/home/">lunatic</a>, pure and simple.

I have always found it to be so intriguing the way certain folks are so SURE of their truth.

I wish I had the energy to get into this thread, but I have a wicked muscle spasm that has me very upset right now. :(

jaycee

01-13-2010, 10:54 PM

Hard facts about reality such as the existence of matter?
Well, if you haven't learned about that yet, you might find it interesting to look it up. "Matter" is just an energy wave which is only explained by a mathematical equation which doesn't REALLY tell us what it is. And it's not possible to "look at" it without changing it; and it's not possible for "matter" to have both its momentum and its location measured at the same time. I don't mean that it's not possible for US, I mean that it's not possible. Period. The implications are literally staggering - a physicist once said, "Anyone who hasn't been absolutely FLOORED by Heisenberg and Shroedinger can't POSSIBLY have understood it." This isn't some "far-out there" idea that I'm rambling about, it's mainstream "established science" - there's essentially no such thing as matter, it's just a form of energy that doesn't even have a specific location in space.

My point is that science has shown is that "cold hard reality" is anything but; and at the very least is something which is extremely elusive, mysterious, and not at all understood, even at the simplist levels.

Just some thoughts.

This post touches on my comment about how the universe is more incredible than we can imagine. There's just a couple of things that need refining...
Firstly, matter are interchangeable, but still somewhat distinct. (Don't mind the upcoming complications too much!) Matter around us is composed of spin 1/2 particles, namely up & down quarks and electrons (e leptons). Real matter that we see, touch, feel etc. is, of course, observable (real meaning uncertainty in position times uncertainty in momentum > h/4pi). Energy, particularly light, is composed of spin 1 particles. Virtual Spin 1 particles transmit forces (virtual meaning uncertainty in position times uncertainty in momentum < h/4pi), like electromagnetism, and can't be observed, only inferred.
Now, as for science being a faith...
Well, if you understand Thomas Kuhn's interpretation of what science is ("The Structure of Scientific Revolutions"), you'll find that sciences are characterised by, shall we say, imposing a view of how nature is (a paradigm), and making nature conform to it. This is something shared by science, religion, and pseudo-science. The difference between science and pseudo-science (including religion) is that scientists care about the problems nature presents to us when we try to make it conform.
There'll usually be a good time in science where everything seems to be working pretty well, usually the very start of a new paradigm. However, more evidence is accumulated that goes against the paradigm too much, resulting in a "crisis". "Crises" are met with "revolution", in which an old paradigm is overthrown in favour of a new one (e.g. Newtonian Gravity is replaced by Einsteinian General Relativity), and a new view of nature is imposed on the universe.
However, pseudo-science and religion do little and care little for problems ("puzzles") with their paradigms - they're stagnant! So it's little wonder that science is regularly coming up with increasingly informed and accurate answers, while pseudo-science and religion either write off inconsistencies ("the lord works in mysterious ways") or construct unfalsifiable hypotheses to protect themselves. Astrology is a glaring example of pseudo-scientific stagnation - the dates used for star signs were (somewhat) correct about 2000 years ago, but not anymore. Astrologers would happily tell me I'm a Taurian, but astronomers (who are smart enough to not actually bother to care) would tell me I'm sometimes a Taurian, other times an Arian (14 May is right on the border). Astrologers have also forgotten about the existence of Ophicus as a star sign, preferring to lump it with Scorpius into Scorpio! Of course, there are other reasons for astrology being pseudo-scientific, namely its inconsistency with modern-day physics, which they don't care about!
So yes, science is a faith. But let's think of science's faith in this way - it doesn't seem unreasonable to have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow, at least to me! But it does seem unreasonable to think that, if you accidentally fall off a cliff, accelerating towards the ground at about 10m/s/s, god/s will send a flock of eagles to catch you and gently slow your fall!

Ghost_Tracker

01-13-2010, 11:17 PM

This post touches on my comment about how the universe is more incredible than we can imagine. There's just a couple of things that need refining...
Firstly, matter are interchangeable, but still somewhat distinct. . . . .

Now, as for science being a faith...
an old paradigm is overthrown in favour of a new one (e.g. Newtonian Gravity is replaced by Einsteinian General Relativity), and a new view of nature is imposed. . . .
.

Okay fair enough - I think we're basically on the same page, but i.m.o. it's still a choice to view the Universe from a certain point-of-view. Not necessarily a "right" or "wrong" one, just a specific perspective. But often in Science these days (for example), there are theories that are put out as "fact" - but in Science, theories are supposed to be confirmed by an independent, separate group of workers, and more often than not that's not done these days - and yet people continue to claim that certain things are "scientific fact."

Here's a somewhat silly example, just to try to make my point - I once heard somebody claim that there's a real possibility that there's a "second Earth" exactly on the other side of the sun which hasn't been detected yet. That person didn't necessarily mean it literally, he just meant that we don't KNOW that that isn't true. Now, I realize that that's nonsense. And I realize that there's ways to tell - for example, the orbit of the Earth would be affected by the other planet's gravity. But at the TIME I didn't know that. I just simply knew it was nonsense. But it wasn't SCIENCE that TOLD me that; it was "common sense." There was NO data (that I was aware of) at that time to say whether it was "true" or not.

Science is a "search for truth." I agree that it's supposed to be flexible and change its theories when they're contradicted. But scientists aren't robots, they're human beings, and whether they like it or not it's IMPOSSIBLE for them not to be biased. There have actually been independent studies OF Science, called "meta-studies," which have shown how researchers ARE biased - even when they think they're not - and that those biases do in fact affect their research.

So for me, overall, it's a perfectly valid - but humanly imperfect, potentially flawed - perspective to use, to understand the Universe.

And ultimately, practitioners of this specific perspective end up saying,
"HERE'S our best guess of what we think is true, and here's why:"

jaycee

01-13-2010, 11:35 PM

Okay fair enough - I think we're basically on the same page, but i.m.o. it's still a choice to view the Universe from a certain point-of-view. Not necessarily a "right" or "wrong" one, just a specific perspective. But often in Science these days (for example), there are theories that are put out as "fact" - but in Science, theories are supposed to be confirmed by an independent, separate group of workers, and more often than not that's not done these days - and yet people continue to claim that certain things are "scientific fact."

Here's a somewhat silly example, just to try to make my point - I once heard somebody claim that there's a real possibility that there's a "second Earth" exactly on the other side of the sun which hasn't been detected yet. That person didn't necessarily mean it literally, he just meant that we don't KNOW that that isn't true. Now, I realize that that's nonsense. And I realize that there's ways to tell - for example, the orbit of the Earth would be affected by the other planet's gravity. But at the TIME I didn't know that. I just simply knew it was nonsense. But it wasn't SCIENCE that TOLD me that; it was "common sense." There was NO data (that I was aware of) at that time to say whether it was "true" or not.

Science is a "search for truth." I agree that it's supposed to be flexible and change it's theories when they're contradicted. But scientists aren't robots, they're human beings, and whether they like it or not it's IMPOSSIBLE for them not to be biased. There have actually been independent studies OF Science, called "meta-studies," which have shown how researchers ARE biased - even when they think they're not - and that those biases do in fact affect their research.

So for me, overall, it's a perfectly valid - but humanly imperfect, potentially flawed - perspective to use, to understand the Universe.

Sounds like Bertrand Russell's Solar Teapot, and the Flying Spaghetti Monster! But it's not "common sense" that tells you to ignore it - it's the fact it's unfalsifiable. If you can't, in principle, find out if something's true, you ignore it. At least that's what you should do. In any case, science makes a point of ignoring unfalsifiable hypotheses, even if they could in fact be true, like the twin Earth, Teacup etc.
As for scientific fact... well, as a philosopher I try to avoid using the word. But I have no qualms with scientists saying that, for example, Darwinian Evolution is a fact. It's a much a fact as the keyboard I'm using to type this message! :)
And, of course, humans aren't robots (well, actually, that's debatable, but not for the purposes of this post). Scientists are passionate about their work and theories. It's not surprising that they should be reluctant to give up on things they've spent a lot of time on. But there are so many scientists working all over the world that "deviants" or "straglers" (whatever you want to call them) either have to admit defeat or get left behind. This happened to Einstein in his later years, when he was too stubborn in his worldview to work with Quantum Mechanics, instead fruitlessly trying to merge Classical Electromagnetism with General Relativity in a four dimensional (including time) framework.
It can be considered fortunate that humans are biased in their scientific work, because we probably wouldn't pursue it with the passion we do, and therefore most likely wouldn't have made the great insights that we have so far with respect to the universe! :nod:

Ghost_Tracker

01-14-2010, 12:17 AM

It can be considered fortunate that humans are biased in their scientific work, because we probably wouldn't pursue it with the passion we do, and therefore most likely wouldn't have made the great insights that we have so far with respect to the universe! :nod:

We're definitely on the same page there! :)

holidayroad

01-14-2010, 10:10 AM

Ghosts can be playful, especially with children. Or they can be mischievous. It just depends. I really think to ghosts, we're the intruders in their world and that's why they can appear upset sometimes or make loud noises etc. People may sit and judge us for talking about this and offer every explanation in the book but maybe these things have to happen to them for them to understand.

I agree that ghosts would see us as intruders. A lot of people would have tried to 'get rid of' the ghosts we had, but we did our best to be respectful. They were there first! I'm sure a lot of people would say that I was 'imagining' these ghosts or that ghosts/spirits don't exist. All I can say is, if they don't, I'd love for these people to explain what was happening in that house!

jaycee

01-14-2010, 08:42 PM

If ghosts exist, and I was lucky enough to become one, all I'd be interested in doing is haunting CERN and doing everything I could possibly think of to draw the attention of as many respectable scientists as I could, and help them in every way conceivable to give evidence of my existence. :laugh: It would certainly give the overjoyed physicists a Nobel Prize, if not many!
Of course, ghosts always seem to be wrapped up in their own emotions, merely haunting families' houses or abandoned buildings, and unwilling to change the landscape of physics. Maybe that isn't an important enough thing to do? :laugh: Or, more probably, because they don't actually exist...
Maybe I'd better stay off this thread... :shrug: it's making me increasingly frustrated...

mylittledemon

01-14-2010, 08:58 PM

Sylvia brown is a <a href="http://stopsylvia.com/home/">lunatic</a>, pure and simple.

I have always found it to be so intriguing the way certain folks are so SURE of their truth.

I have to agree on both points. In the end, you can only have hope in your faith.

Ghost_Tracker

01-14-2010, 10:39 PM

I have always found it to be so intriguing the way certain folks are so SURE of their truth.

(

That's why I'm a "relativist" - - - I feel that there's "a little bit of Truth" in EVERYTHING and that whether someone's "right" or not depends on their point-of-view. I'm absolutely inflexible on that, the ONLY way to view the universe is as a Relativist.

( :laugh: )

carrie721

01-15-2010, 05:53 AM

David

01-15-2010, 12:06 PM

I wish I had the energy to get into this thread, but I have a wicked muscle spasm that has me very upset right now. :(What did you take for it? Did you try lying in a backward-bending arc over your Swiss exercise ball? That always helps the back vertabrae.

I'd like to get Beethoven into this discussion about ghosts & science, but the question is, How?

mylittledemon

01-15-2010, 04:48 PM

I'd like to get Beethoven into this discussion about ghosts & science, but the question is, How?

Just make Beethoven your god. It would make no less (or more) sense than what anyone else believes. ;)