Let's Show Some love For... "Straight Back"!

[jaycee]

Well, we've shown our love for "Brown Eyes". We've shown our love for the album Tango In The Night. We've shown our love for The Beatles (on the now aptly titled thread "FM is just so good"). Now it's time for "Straight Back"!
Mirage is probably best described as a mixed bag for most fans. Personally I love Mirage, although I wouldn't care to play any of Lindsey's songs from it to friends being introduced to FM. But I think that Christine's and Stevie's songs on this album are lovable, and I wouldn't hesitate to play them for anyone new to FM!
So, let's hear it for "Straight Back"! :woohoo:

[ragrsrocalot]

I love Straight Back. I think it is a really strong vocal, I love Stevie's voice from this era. I also love the demo of this song with Stevie and Christine working out the harmony, you can totally hear Stevie's voice ready to fly, she sang effortlessly. Great, great song.:thumbsup:

[skuncles]

I've always liked "Straight Back" however I would have preferred that the the song it replaced been left where it was. Back when the "Mirage" album was being recorded Stevie was asked what she had on the new album. She said "I have three songs, one called "Gypsy", one called "That's Alright" that goes back to the Buckingham Nicks days and another called "Smile At You"."
"Smile At You" was dropped when Lindsey decided that the song was too angry and that wasn't the direction they wanted to take the album. Too bad, because the version of "Smile At You" recorded then is vastly superior to the "Say You Will" version. I think too much time had passed and the anger was gone.

[GypsySorcerer]

I like all of Stevie's songs on Mirage. She was in great form vocally. "Straight Back" is probably my least favorite of the three, but it's still quite good. I like the Stevie/Christine harmony. Too bad we didn't get more of that on other albums.

[joe]

I can totally see Lindsey's point. However, Smile At You is a much stronger song than Straight Back. But I love Straight Back too, albeit, as predictable as it sounds. I think I liked the demo a little better too.

[HejiraNYC]

But are we talking about the version of SB on the first pressing of the vinyl LP or the version on the subsequent CD release with all of the extra guitar overdubs? I much preferred the LP version- I think all that extra guitar noodling only detracted from the spooky sparseness of the original. :mad: Why did they feel the need to do this? From what I've read, it's not even Lindsey playing the guitar- it's Ray!

[jbrownsjr]

But are we talking about the version of SB on the first pressing of the vinyl LP or the version on the subsequent CD release with all of the extra guitar overdubs? I much preferred the LP version- I think all that extra guitar noodling only detracted from the spooky sparseness of the original. :mad: Why did they feel the need to do this? From what I've read, it's not even Lindsey playing the guitar- it's Ray!

Is there an LP version out there?

[trackaghost]

But are we talking about the version of SB on the first pressing of the vinyl LP or the version on the subsequent CD release with all of the extra guitar overdubs? I much preferred the LP version- I think all that extra guitar noodling only detracted from the spooky sparseness of the original. :mad: Why did they feel the need to do this? From what I've read, it's not even Lindsey playing the guitar- it's Ray!

Isn't there less vocals from Stevie on the LP version as well? It's been a while since I've listened to it but it's a lot more spacey and sparse from what I can remember.

[skuncles]

Is there an LP version out there?

Yeah it's on the LP. I don't think that version has ever been issued on CD though. I know when I got the Mirage CD (which has THE worst sound of all of the Mac albums!!! It needs to be remastered NOW!) I was very surprised to hear the mix of "Straight Back" that is on there.

[David]

Straight Back has really stupid words, but it's kind of a cool track. The band gave it kind of a funk quality -- John's bass, I think. The one recording we have of it being run down live in rehearsal is super-cool, too. Would have been killer on the '82 tour.

I think this is the song about which Christine said that some of the parts that sound like keyboard work are actually guitar work. (I essentially hear only the Yamaha CP-30 being played on a single track on this one. Is there also a phat synth pad?) Typical of Lindsey: To employ his own voice & the voicings of his guitars to simulate other voices or other instruments. Once again, it's all part of the Mac's experiments in confounding listener expectations, in getting us as listeners to think outside the box (the box being the typical pop song on the radio).

[ragrsrocalot]

I love Straight Back. I think it is a really strong vocal, I love Stevie's voice from this era. I also love the demo of this song with Stevie and Christine working out the harmony, you can totally hear Stevie's voice ready to fly, she sang effortlessly. Great, great song.:thumbsup:

I meant to say rehearsal not demo. Anyway here is a copy of what I meant. http://www.sendspace.com/file/uqzdxh

[michelej1]

The lyrics actually remind me of Daedalus and Icarus a bit.

But my favorite part of the song is the "hours and hours of waiting". Waiting is as heartbreaking and compelling a component of unfulfilled love as loss is, but I don't think it gets the same representation in poems, music or literature. There's something about this song that captures both the hope and emptiness of waiting. Anticipation can buoy you one minute and then turn around and stab you in the chest, when nothing comes of it. Yet, you'd do it again, open yourself up for the same disappointment. You'll continue to wait.

I love the feelings this song stirs up. Love Christine on it. Loved the way this song preceded Hold Me on the album. Stevie talked about a rumpled ball of tuskness, but Mirage is like a rumpled ball of yearning. It's like a wound you don't feel yet, because you're still drugged. So, you're drifting in a dreamlike state, floating in gauze, anesthetic and pretty orchestration. Feels really good now, but you know the pain is coming down the line.



Michele

[michelej1]

Typical of Lindsey: To employ his own voice & the voicings of his guitars to simulate other voices or other instruments. Once again, it's all part of the Mac's experiments in confounding listener expectations, in getting us as listeners to think outside the box (the box being the typical pop song on the radio).


Oh, one of my favorite things that Mick ever said was that it was like pulling teeth just to get Lindsey to play the GUITAR sometimes, because he would spend hours trying to make his guitar sound like a violin, for instance.

Michele

[DavidMn]

Yes I love this song! I dunno what it is, but it just counds really cool to me.:cool:

[jbrownsjr]

Yeah it's on the LP. I don't think that version has ever been issued on CD though. I know when I got the Mirage CD (which has THE worst sound of all of the Mac albums!!! It needs to be remastered NOW!) I was very surprised to hear the mix of "Straight Back" that is on there.

I used to have the LP but don't anymore... would love to hear the difference... I should have stored all my LP's digitally...

[jbrownsjr]

Straight Back has really stupid words, but it's kind of a cool track. The band gave it kind of a funk quality -- John's bass, I think. The one recording we have of it being run down live in rehearsal is super-cool, too. Would have been killer on the '82 tour.

I think this is the song about which Christine said that some of the parts that sound like keyboard work are actually guitar work. (I essentially hear only the Yamaha CP-30 being played on a single track on this one. Is there also a phat synth pad?) Typical of Lindsey: To employ his own voice & the voicings of his guitars to simulate other voices or other instruments. Once again, it's all part of the Mac's experiments in confounding listener expectations, in getting us as listeners to think outside the box (the box being the typical pop song on the radio).

I can hear a piano track too on occasion..

[HejiraNYC]

Isn't there less vocals from Stevie on the LP version as well? It's been a while since I've listened to it but it's a lot more spacey and sparse from what I can remember.

Come to think of it, yes! During the "she remembers how good it can be..." bridge, they added a kind of "dueling Stevies," where Stevie adds an extra wail or a couple of "hours and hours..." here and there. Personally, I liked it better without all the extra production. It was like painting a mustache on the Mona Lisa.

[louielouie2000]

I've always loved Straight Back. I can still remember vividly the first time I heard it. I was on a plane bound for Las Vegas in July '01, and was listening to the two albums I had just received for my birthday: Tango and Mirage. Straight Back came on as we were flying over the Grand Canyon and Lake Mead... it was almost a spiritual thing. It was such a beautiful way to be introduced to such a beautiful song. I've had a soft spot for Straight Back ever since.

I agree it's no Gold Dust Woman or Sisters Of The Moon, but Straight Back is still a classic textbook Stevie Nicks song. I love the spooky, haunting sound it oozes. The backing vocals are sheer perfection. The production may come across as a bit busy with John's thumping bass, the lush vocals, and Lindsey's keyboard-mocking guitarwork... but I think Stevie's very out-in-front vocal helps balance it out. The way the song slowly winds up to an instrumental crescendo at the end is very cool.

This song marks the last time she recorded anything great within the confines of the Mac until Illume and Destiny Rules... a 21 year span. I've always kind of found it odd, yet fitting the song was about how her solo career revived her musical passion... yet the song was recorded for a Mac album. Kinda a foreshadowing of trouble to come.

[HomerMcvie]

But are we talking about the version of SB on the first pressing of the vinyl LP or the version on the subsequent CD release with all of the extra guitar overdubs? I much preferred the LP version- I think all that extra guitar noodling only detracted from the spooky sparseness of the original. :mad: Why did they feel the need to do this? From what I've read, it's not even Lindsey playing the guitar- it's Ray!
I remember posting about this, years ago.... Indeed, there were two versions of this released. I bought the cassette version, the day Mirage was released. Cut to a couple of years later, and I bought the CD, and SB is a different version.....

Why was this done, especially with no explanation? Is it not unheard of, to release an album, then go back and change a track, then keep releasing it? I wonder if the first pressing was rushed, to make a release date, or something....

Or, they thought SB had potential as a single, if they reworked it....

[jcalzaretta]

I loved the first 2/3rds of the song. I was not fond of the ending.

[badanimals87]

Is there an LP version out there?

Here's the LP version.

Straight Back - LP Version
http://www.mediafire.com/?iyyjfndytmw

[Artemis]

I've always loved Straight Back, I'd even go as far to say it's my favourite song on Mirage (Yes, I even prefer it to Gypsy!)

It reminds me a lot of Gold Dust Woman fused with Sisters of The Moon, two of my all-time favourite Stevie songs. I think her voice sounds amazing on the song, and I love the harmonies with Christine.

I just adore everything about it. :laugh:

And a huge thank you for posting the live version! I LOVE it!

[jeffd8382]

Here's the LP version.

Straight Back - LP Version
http://www.mediafire.com/?iyyjfndytmw

Looks like somebody already beat me to posting it...
But if anyone's interested, here's an excellent quality vinyl rip of "Straight Back" (original LP version)
(listed under January 13, 2010):

http://songsoftheday.synthasite.com

Enjoy!

[AgeOldDesire]

Looks like somebody already beat me to posting it... but if anyone's interested, here's a HQ version of the LP version of "Straight Back" (listed under January 13, 2010)

Enjoy! (http://songsoftheday.synthasite.com)

If you scroll down this page you can also snag Saddest Victory and I Pretend from Sandy Stewart. :thumbsup:

[mylittledemon]

I've always loved Straight Back, I'd even go as far to say it's my favourite song on Mirage (Yes, I even prefer it to Gypsy!)


:eek:

:shocked:

;)

[tilthefirefades]

the LP version is definitely crisper, i didn't think the song could get any better:thumbsup:

[jbrownsjr]

Here's the LP version.

Straight Back - LP Version
http://www.mediafire.com/?iyyjfndytmw

Why thank you very much!

[chiliD]

Too bad, because the version of "Smile At You" recorded then is vastly superior to the "Say You Will" version. I think too much time had passed and the anger was gone.

Ok, I'll bite...

...YOUR OPINION that the Mirage outtake is "vastly superior"...MY OPINION, the Say You Will version blows ANY other version of the song I've heard out of the water. Basically, what even MAKES the song for me is McVie's bass line...only the SYW version has it. Out-of-control, over-the-top vocals by Stevie on those earlier versions, to me, suck eggs.


Anyway, regards to "Straight Back"....never appreciated the song until the CD came out....I longed for the LP version mix. And, I agree that the Mirage CD has one of the most horrid mastering jobs of any Fleetwood Mac album. Why the "alternate mixes"?

The same was when the Tusk CD came out and they'd used an alternate mix of "I Know I'm Not Wrong", when the LP version was, TO ME, vastly superior to the CD version.

[Phil]

I've always liked "Straight Back" however I would have preferred that the the song it replaced been left where it was. Back when the "Mirage" album was being recorded Stevie was asked what she had on the new album. She said "I have three songs, one called "Gypsy", one called "That's Alright" that goes back to the Buckingham Nicks days and another called "Smile At You"."
"Smile At You" was dropped when Lindsey decided that the song was too angry and that wasn't the direction they wanted to take the album. Too bad, because the version of "Smile At You" recorded then is vastly superior to the "Say You Will" version. I think too much time had passed and the anger was gone.

I agree. I never knew Stevie had spoken about her contributions to Mirage prior to it's release, but her comments would indicate that a finished version of Smile At You from that period exists. Of all the versions I have heard, from 1976 to 2003, the Mirage sessions were definitely the best. Nothing matches the power of her vocals at that time - as ragrsrocalot says, they just sounded effortless.

It's also a shame the band didn't wish to pursue this direction for the album - I think a little anger would have humanised the sterility of proceedings. There are good to great songs aplenty but overall, it's all too subdued and ultimately, not satisfying.

This discussion just makes me pine all the more for a remastered reissue of the Mirage album. If it followed the style of the three reissues from 2004 and had a second disc of alternate versions and outtakes, it would most certainly have to include both Smile At You and the original version of Straight Back.

Why oh why won't Mick milk this opportunity that is right under his nose? The same goes for the 1980 Live album and Tango In The Night. For very little outlay, these reissues could easily recoup whatever costs were involved. Even in this digital, illegal downloading age, these could sell well, especially given the correct marketing strategy. The group's apathy concerning this matter truly mystifies me.

The lyrics actually remind me of Daedalus and Icarus a bit.

But my favorite part of the song is the "hours and hours of waiting". Waiting is as heartbreaking and compelling a component of unfulfilled love as loss is, but I don't think it gets the same representation in poems, music or literature. There's something about this song that captures both the hope and emptiness of waiting. Anticipation can buoy you one minute and then turn around and stab you in the chest, when nothing comes of it. Yet, you'd do it again, open yourself up for the same disappointment. You'll continue to wait.

I love the feelings this song stirs up. Love Christine on it. Loved the way this song preceded Hold Me on the album. Stevie talked about a rumpled ball of tuskness, but Mirage is like a rumpled ball of yearning. It's like a wound you don't feel yet, because you're still drugged. So, you're drifting in a dreamlike state, floating in gauze, anesthetic and pretty orchestration. Feels really good now, but you know the pain is coming down the line.

Michele, I love your posting - the sense of yearning contained within Mirage is apparent but could have been better exploited with a little more fire and energy.

I also always liked Christine's harmony vocal on Straight Back (particularly the "like a wolf on the run" line) and the way her piano wove around Stevie during the second verse. I agree, the sequencing from Straight Back to Hold Me was quite inspired.

By the way, I would not have omitted Straight Back, I simply would have included Smile At You as well. If the vinyl time constraints had made it necessary to ditch one track, I would have opted for either Only Over You or Oh Diane (both rubbish in my opinion).

Come to think of it, why was Stevie only relegated three songs again for this album? She was at the peak of her powers, both creatively and commercially (on the back of Bella Donna) yet she only garnered a quarter of the songs? From what I understand, she was present during the entire recording sessions, unlike what was to occur with Tango, so was she simply being punished for having made a successful solo record?

Why was this done, especially with no explanation? Is it not unheard of, to release an album, then go back and change a track, then keep releasing it? I wonder if the first pressing was rushed, to make a release date, or something....
The same thing happened with I Know I'm Not Wrong when the Tusk album was first issued on cd - different version and no explanation (I actually prefer the cd version with more prominent vocals from Stevie - it almost becomes a duet).

Of course, the single edit of Sara was also included on the first cd version but this was obviously done to conserve space and at least we already knew it existed as the single version.

Just noticed your post chiliD after I'd submitted mine. Hahaha - we seem to disagree about which particular version is the best!

[HomerMcvie]

I think a little anger would have humanised the sterility of proceedings. There are good to great songs aplenty but overall, it's all too subdued and ultimately, not satisfying.
Mirage sterile??? To me, Tango is the STERILE album! I know Mirage doesn't get much respect, but I much prefer it to Tango! Tango sounds to me, like Lindsey tinkering with digital recording and editing, for years, until every note is perfect. Tango doesn't sound like a BAND, playing! I think Tango stands the test of time, less than ALL the other albums.
I love me some Mirage. Why they don't remaster it, only shows how bad FM's business sense truly is!

[Nikolaj]

[QUOTE=michelej1;865014]The lyrics actually remind me of Daedalus and Icarus a bit.

But my favorite part of the song is the "hours and hours of waiting". Waiting is as heartbreaking and compelling a component of unfulfilled love as loss is, but I don't think it gets the same representation in poems, music or literature. There's something about this song that captures both the hope and emptiness of waiting. Anticipation can buoy you one minute and then turn around and stab you in the chest, when nothing comes of it. Yet, you'd do it again, open yourself up for the same disappointment. You'll continue to wait.
Michele

Whoa! This is brilliant writing. Thank You, Michelej1.
27 and a half years later, I think I finally understand why this track was, hands down, my favorite song on 'Mirage'. And I definitely prefer the first, sparse version, with the spaces left unfilled in the 'remembers how good it can be', 'remembers a melody' segment(s).

[fringed n fab]

I love this song from Mirage more than any other on the album.

[Phil]

Mirage sterile??? To me, Tango is the STERILE album! I know Mirage doesn't get much respect, but I much prefer it to Tango! Tango sounds to me, like Lindsey tinkering with digital recording and editing, for years, until every note is perfect. Tango doesn't sound like a BAND, playing! I think Tango stands the test of time, less than ALL the other albums.

HomerMcVie,

Please don't misunderstand me - I am fond of Mirage and I agree that Tango is definitely the most sterile, synthetic offering this quintet ever issued but that said, Mirage lacks the soul of Tusk, which of course preceded it.

That was my reaction upon first hearing Mirage and as unfair as it was to do, I guess I compared the two. Nothing could ever eclipse Tusk for me because it is my all time favourite album and of course, the styles of the albums are distinctly different but in my opinion, Mirage definitely didn't match it for quality.

I happen to adore all three of Stevie's tracks on Mirage and like most of the remaining tracks but don't consider them to be amongst the greatest of Lindsey's and Christine's output. Much of the album sounds half-hearted to these ears and yet Stevie's impassioned vocals and intense compositions lend an air of authenticity to proceedings.

[michelej1]

[QUOTE=Nikolaj;865140 And I definitely prefer the first, sparse version, with the spaces left unfilled in the 'remembers how good it can be', 'remembers a melody' segment(s).[/QUOTE]

Oh, that's another line I love. She switches a pronoun the second time she says it, from "she" to "he" and it just gives me the impression of both of them remembering, appreciating and missing the exact same things, but maybe at different stages in their lives. Beautiful.

Michele

[michelej1]

I agree. I never knew Stevie had spoken about her contributions to Mirage prior to it's release, but her comments would indicate that a finished version of Smile At You from that period exists.

She said of the upcoming album:

I have 3 songs as it stands now, but I think we may replace one of them with another song. I wrote one of the songs a long, long time ago, even before Lindsey and I moved to LA. It's called It's Alright. It's very simple. Lindsey just plays some really nice guitar behind me. There's another song called If You Were My Love that I wrote about a year ago after I'd recorded Outside the Rain with Tom Petty & the Heartbreakers. I spent a week recording with them and I had so much fun that I was really bummed out when it was over. That's when I wrote that song.

There was also a song called Smile at You that I don't think we'll put on. I think Lindsey wants me to record another one and so do I. It's kind of a bitter song and that's really not where any of us are at right now, even thought it's a wonderful song. My songs don't take long to record, so it shouldn't be a problem.

[louielouie2000]

HomerMcVie,

Please don't misunderstand me - I am fond of Mirage and I agree that Tango is definitely the most sterile, synthetic offering this quintet ever issued but that said, Mirage lacks the soul of Tusk, which of course preceded it.

That was my reaction upon first hearing Mirage and as unfair as it was to do, I guess I compared the two. Nothing could ever eclipse Tusk for me because it is my all time favourite album and of course, the styles of the albums are distinctly different but in my opinion, Mirage definitely didn't match it for quality.

I happen to adore all three of Stevie's tracks on Mirage and like most of the remaining tracks but don't consider them to be amongst the greatest of Lindsey's and Christine's output. Much of the album sounds half-hearted to these ears and yet Stevie's impassioned vocals and intense compositions lend an air of authenticity to proceedings.

I agree with everything you said. To me, Mirage is just sterile, formulaic, and soulless. I even prefer Tango to Mirage, simply because it's a better album, and because Lindsey and Christine's songs on Tango are exceedingly high quality. Lindsey's Mirage songs just plain stink in my opinion (sans Eyes Of The World), and Christine's aren't much better (sans Hold Me). Stevie's songs were good... but don't quite match the emotion of her songs on Tusk, or even Tango for that matter. People may blast Stevie's Tango contributions, but she was staggeringly raw and honest in her lyrics for Welcome To The Room... Sara, and When I See You Again. As a whole, Mirage just comes across to me as disingenuous. The kids were at the top of all of their respective games (just watch videos from the Mirage tour!!), but the album was just a phoned in middle of the road effort by burned out, spoiled rockers.

[HomerMcvie]

Lindsey's Mirage songs just plain stink in my opinion (sans Eyes Of The World), and Christine's aren't much better (sans Hold Me).

ARGGGHHHH! I love Can't Go Back, and Book of Love, and EVEN Empire State!!!

I'll give you, that Love in Store is fairly bland, even though I like it.......I blame Lindsey's production!!!:laugh:

Okay, I'm willing to admit, that my love for Mirage, probably has more to do with the fact that I was a kid, when it came out. I LOVED Mirage! I still have vivid memories, of making my friends listen to it!

When I make a FM "MY hits" cd, Can't Go Back, That's Alright, and Book of Love, must ALWAYS be sequential!

[jaycee]

ARGGGHHHH! I love Can't Go Back, and Book of Love, and EVEN Empire State!!!

I'll give you, that Love in Store is fairly bland, even though I like it.......I blame Lindsey's production!!!:laugh:

Okay, I'm willing to admit, that my love for Mirage, probably has more to do with the fact that I was a kid, when it came out. I LOVED Mirage! I still have vivid memories, of making my friends listen to it!

When I make a FM "MY hits" cd, Can't Go Back, That's Alright, and Book of Love, must ALWAYS be sequential!

To be honest, I can't see why many FM fans don't like "Empire State". It bewilders me. :shrug: That said, I wouldn't say I love it like most other LB songs.
I must say I don't like "Can't Go Back" or "Book Of Love" as much as I used to, at least at the moment... I still quite like them though...
I also quite like "Oh Diane", except if anyone else is listening to it with me - all I want to do then is die! :laugh: I mean, it's not as if I can skip the track, because it feels like too much of a concession, seeing as their my favourite band! And if I don't, then it probably tarnishes their view of FM anyway! :laugh: I remember listening to "Mirage" one time, and Dad just happened to come in, hand me dinner, sit down next to me with his own, and start listening to the end of "Hold Me"... which proceeded to the beginning of "Oh Diane"! :distress: I would've preferred Dad to have never had to endure that during his lifetime. That said, he didn't say anything, but I'm confident that he would've thought it was rubbish. Also unfortunately, I played the first disc of (Selections from) 25 Years - The Chain in the car during a trip in New Zealand, which contains "Oh Diane"... someone should've slapped Lindsey across the face when he decided to include it in the compilation (assuming it was his fault)! (Sorry Lindsey! :sorry:)
As for "Eyes Of The World"... well, I don't like it as much as I used to, because I recently listened to it with headphones, and I heard all these extra annoying vocal noises at the start, which seemed silly to me. :shrug:
(That reminds me - I listened to "Tango In The Night" two nights back, and what I originally thought was merely a long pause in the song was actually filled with similarly annoying noises... except these ones didn't annoy me! :laugh:)
Having said all this, I actually still love his Mirage songs! :nod: Just not as much as his other ones, of course!
And I think all of Christine's and Stevie's songs are excellent on this album! I really don't understand why some people don't like "Only Over You". :confused: It's got me mystified...

[Artemis]

Empire State is probably in my top 5 Lindsey songs >_>

I wish they would re-release Mirage and put in Smile At You and If You Were My Love, then it would be a really really amazing album. It annoys me how Stevie's songs are (in my opinion) the best on the album, yet she only gets three, while Lindsey gets more songs and most of them are horrific (Oh Diane, anyone? Awful song)

Smile At You is best in the Mirage-era demos. I think it's totally, utterly, ruined in Say You Will. I like to pretend it never happened >_>

Edit - Woo, just as I posted this, I get Mirage and Street Angel through my letter box. Huzzah for ebay! =D

[Phil]

Homer,
I really like Can't Go Back and Empire State but I'm not so convinced of his other contributions to Mirage. Christine's songs are generally good but suffer from uninspired production - for example, imagine the demo of Little Lies before Lindsey wove his magic around it - that was a beautifully produced track that made an average song actually sparkle - that's what her tracks needed. The simplicity of Stevie's tracks rang true - they thankfully didn't need any comprehensive production because they certainly didn't get it!

[holidayroad]

It's also a shame the band didn't wish to pursue this direction for the album - I think a little anger would have humanised the sterility of proceedings. There are good to great songs aplenty but overall, it's all too subdued and ultimately, not satisfying.

By the way, I would not have omitted Straight Back, I simply would have included Smile At You as well. If the vinyl time constraints had made it necessary to ditch one track, I would have opted for either Only Over You or Oh Diane (both rubbish in my opinion).


I think both versions of 'Smile At You' are good in their own ways. I'm sort of glad it didn't go on Mirage, because we would have never heard the Say You Will version. As for anger, I always felt that 'Straight Back' was a pretty angry song itself. And poor 'Oh Diane'! This song gets so picked on! I'm not saying it's Lindsey's best work, but I really like it!

[skuncles]

Since we're speaking of "Straight Back", several years ago I made a compilation of Stevie's more rocking songs for someone. I just grabbed a bunch of songs and put them together. After listening back to it though I realized that the first three songs sound very similar. Check it out, play these three songs back to back to back, in this order, and see if you agree:

Nothing Ever Changes
Smile At You ("walls are flaming, flaming" demo version)
Straight Back

To me these three just have the same feel/sound to them.

[TrueFaith77]

I put away my turntable but I'll have to check out the vinyl version. As it plays on my CD, I have to say (as I often say), it sounds like a Roxy Music song to me.

[Erin]

I really don't understand why some people don't like "Only Over You". :confused: It's got me mystified...

I'll tell you why: "I'm OUT of my mind..." It's like nails on a chalk board to me.

[HejiraNYC]

Empire State is probably in my top 5 Lindsey songs >_>

I wish they would re-release Mirage and put in Smile At You and If You Were My Love, then it would be a really really amazing album. It annoys me how Stevie's songs are (in my opinion) the best on the album, yet she only gets three, while Lindsey gets more songs and most of them are horrific (Oh Diane, anyone? Awful song)

Smile At You is best in the Mirage-era demos. I think it's totally, utterly, ruined in Say You Will. I like to pretend it never happened >_>

Edit - Woo, just as I posted this, I get Mirage and Street Angel through my letter box. Huzzah for ebay! =D


I suspect that at the time Stevie was probably doing her nobless oblige and allowing the other writers to get a larger chunk of the publishing since she had just made a mint off of BD. Plus, whatever didn't get used by FM went directly to her solo career. Mama was at the peak of her powers creatively and commercially, and probably had no time or inclination for band politics. She "tread with gossamer wings."

[David]

I suspect that at the time Stevie was probably doing her nobless oblige and allowing the other writers to get a larger chunk of the publishing since she had just made a mint off of BD. Plus, whatever didn't get used by FM went directly to her solo career. Mama was at the peak of her powers creatively and commercially, and probably had no time or inclination for band politics. She "tread with gossamer wings."Pretty image, fit for a fairytale. But according to the David Gans article in Record, Nicks wasn't showing up often enough at the Larrabee sessions to get much more than that recorded.

[HomerMcvie]

Homer,
I really like Can't Go Back and Empire State but I'm not so convinced of his other contributions to Mirage. Christine's songs are generally good but suffer from uninspired production - for example, imagine the demo of Little Lies before Lindsey wove his magic around it - that was a beautifully produced track that made an average song actually sparkle - that's what her tracks needed. The simplicity of Stevie's tracks rang true - they thankfully didn't need any comprehensive production because they certainly didn't get it!
Oh Diane is really the only song of Lindsey's, that I don't care for. I'll never understand the HATE that Empire State gets! It kicks Diane's ASS!!!:lol:

You say Stevie's songs didn't get "comprehensive production"? If Gypsy's not the ultimate example of Lindsey's tireless production, then I don't know what is!

[HejiraNYC]

Pretty image, fit for a fairytale. But according to the David Gans article in Record, Nicks wasn't showing up often enough at the Larrabee sessions to get much more than that recorded.

My recollection was that they were all holed up in a rented house in France to get Mirage finished. Still, Stevie could have easily had a terrific fourth song on that album in lieu of one of the fluffer-nutter pieces shat out by Lindsey or Christine, especially since she had newfound leverage within the band to demand things. With a little additional tinkering, "If You Were My Love" and/or "Smile at You" could have been hit singles.

[HejiraNYC]

You say Stevie's songs didn't get "comprehensive production"? If Gypsy's not the ultimate example of Lindsey's tireless production, then I don't know what is!

Werd. :cool:

The BD demos for "Gypsy" with the Heartbreakers are painful to hear. Just awful. This is the perfect example of Lindsey's (occasional) ability to polish a turd in the studio.

[Fiver]

ARGGGHHHH! I love Can't Go Back, and Book of Love, and EVEN Empire State!!!

I'll give you, that Love in Store is fairly bland, even though I like it.......I blame Lindsey's production!!!:laugh:

Okay, I'm willing to admit, that my love for Mirage, probably has more to do with the fact that I was a kid, when it came out. I LOVED Mirage! I still have vivid memories, of making my friends listen to it!

When I make a FM "MY hits" cd, Can't Go Back, That's Alright, and Book of Love, must ALWAYS be sequential!

Hey, I'm totally with you on this, and I just discovered FM. I went from Rumours to the White Album to Tusk to Mirage.. and so on..

And I freakin' LOVE Mirage.(This includes ALL of Lindsey and Stevie's songs and Christine's. Love in Store sounds great live.) My third favorite FM album after Tusk and Rumours. :thumbsup:

Also, thank you, awesome people who posted the LP version of Straight Back and the rehearsal, you rock!

[Phil]

Pretty image, fit for a fairytale. But according to the David Gans article in Record, Nicks wasn't showing up often enough at the Larrabee sessions to get much more than that recorded.

Like HejiraNYC stated, Stevie not only had the songs, but they were actually recorded. The Mirage versions of Smile At You and If You Were My Love sound virtually "good to go" to my ears, particularly the former song. It was my recollection too that the whole band were in France, committed to working as a team after what had been perceived as a fragmented, disunified approach during the Tusk sessions. Stevie may not have contributed majorly to Lindsey's and Christine's songs but that doesn't alter the fact that she had delivered up first rate material that basically pissed all over everything else on offer. Maybe the potential embarrassment of being overshadowed by her natural brilliance, not to mention her rising star at the time, put paid to the inclusion of any additional material?

Oh Diane is really the only song of Lindsey's, that I don't care for. I'll never understand the HATE that Empire State gets! It kicks Diane's ASS!!!

You say Stevie's songs didn't get "comprehensive production"? If Gypsy's not the ultimate example of Lindsey's tireless production, then I don't know what is!

The BD demos for "Gypsy" with the Heartbreakers are painful to hear. Just awful. This is the perfect example of Lindsey's (occasional) ability to polish a turd in the studio.

I realise I'm in the minority here but I don't consider Lindsey's production work on Gypsy to be exceptional - serviceable yes, but nothing out of the ordinary. I for one adore the demo versions with The Heartbreakers and believe the basic structure of the song was intact. Lindsey added a few flourishes here and there, but the real draw of the finished recording is Stevie's superb vocal delivery and the associated harmonies. A great song is a great song and it was there from the beginning.
(For an example of Lindsey's exemplary production skills, look no further than what he did on Thrown Down many years later. In it's demo form, I thought it was a lost cause, but he truly transformed it in the studio. A fine job indeed.)

Stevie's own production and vocal arrangement skills should not be underestimated either. Just because she's rarely been given credit for such doesn't mean she wasn't instrumental in shaping her own songs throughout her career. She always instinctively knew what she wanted in the studio and often coaxed the results out of her collaborators (who often possessed the musical prowess she didn't to achieve her aspirations). I'm aware she's given Lindsey credit over the years for arranging many of her songs but whilst I acknowledge his many talents and great work on a selection of her numbers, I don't think he "polished any of her turds".

[tilthefirefades]

Mirage is my favorite behind Say You Will(:shrug:), and i love every song on there, except for Oh Diane :laugh:, but Straight Back is definitely an amazing song. However, it would have been very interesting had Smile At You replaced it. But as previously stated, we would've missed it on Say You Will. But Lindsey's songs on Mirage are impeccable. Still, i believe that his best songs are from Tusk, especially as each listen goes by. But with all that being said, Hold Me is my favorite on the album, followed by Gypsy, Can't Go Back, That's Alright and Straight Back. Amazing album, eccentric production and all :D

[David]

Like HejiraNYC stated, Stevie not only had the songs, but they were actually recorded. The Mirage versions of Smile At You and If You Were My Love sound virtually "good to go" to my ears, particularly the former song. I'd have preferred either of those, as well, to "Straight Back," but the band, for whatever reason, picked the three we got. The band has never addressed why Nicks has three songs on that album instead of four or five, so we can toss our guesses around.

It was my recollection too that the whole band were in France, committed to working as a team after what had been perceived as a fragmented, disunified approach during the Tusk sessions.In France for six or eight weeks only, pulling together basic tracks. In talking about that album, the band has always made it sound as if the majority of recording & virtually all the mixing were done in Los Angeles over the course of about 12 months (roughly, June 1981 to June 1982).

Stevie may not have contributed majorly to Lindsey's and Christine's songs but that doesn't alter the fact that she had delivered up first rate material that basically pissed all over everything else on offer.That's your opinion, Phil. We all have our opinions, but you put forth yours as if it were observable fact, plain to one & all. I don't think much of "Straight Back" as a song & I'm not sure I think that "Gypsy" is terribly good, either. But I love the tracks that Fleetwood Mac builds around them, for which I give all of them & their engineers credit.

Maybe the potential embarrassment of being overshadowed by her natural brilliance, not to mention her rising star at the time, put paid to the inclusion of any additional material?Maybe. Is there some way we can ask Lindsey, Mick, & Christine whether they were unwilling to include more Nicks material on Mirage because Stevie's natural brilliance cowed them? Maybe Stevie Nicks tried to buy her way out of the band, one of a bunch of rumors at the time. How much leverage did she have within the group at the time? I'm not sure she had any more than any of the others. Her solo success gave her a lot more leverage of her own career, but the idea that she was able to steer Fleetwood Mac this way or that starting in 1982 is pretty silly to me. Why didn't she demand a fourth song on Mirage? She didn't want to tour with the band in 1982, so why did she go at all?

I realise I'm in the minority here but I don't consider Lindsey's production work on Gypsy to be exceptional - serviceable yes, but nothing out of the ordinary.Based on my observations, you're definitely in a minority on that point, a very small minority (numbering one, to be exact). But these are subjective preference matters, not objectively provable facts.

I for one adore the demo versions with The Heartbreakers and believe the basic structure of the song was intact.I love the way the Heartbreakers play in general, but those workouts of "Gypsy" are sort of dumb to me -- just fast-paced blues rock without any particular character beyond that & certainly no dynamics, no smooth texture, & no pentatonic hook.

Lindsey added a few flourishes here and there, but the real draw of the finished recording is Stevie's superb vocal delivery and the associated harmonies. Again we're discussing subjective impressions, but my impression is that Lindsey (in other words, Fleetwood Mac) added more than a "few flourishes here & there" (what flourishes?). The band built an elaborate orchestration into the track that was redolent of the complexity & exuberance of the arrangements & shape of tracks on "Rumours." Incidentally, the vocal harmonies on that track are emblematic of Buckingham's vocal-layering methods, not Nicks's (whose style of vocal layering you can hear on her own albums).

A great song is a great song and it was there from the beginning.In pop music, a great track is a great song. A great song is also a great song, but it's not a necessity of a great track. More than just about any other contemporary rock band, Fleetwood Mac is proof of that, over & over again.

Stevie's own production and vocal arrangement skills should not be underestimated either. Maybe I'm one of the people who underestimate her production skills. But I've never heard or seen evidence that she even has any production skills -- not in the sense that I understand production.

Just because she's rarely been given credit for such doesn't mean she wasn't instrumental in shaping her own songs throughout her career. I guess she was "instrumental" (whatever that means) in shaping some of her songs & not all that instrumental in shaping others. She herself has complained from time to time about not having been allowed (or encouraged) to play a bigger part in shaping her tracks. At times (such as during the recording for Mirage & Tango in the Night), she played a minimal role because she didn't spend enough time with the band in the studio.

She always instinctively knew what she wanted in the studio She did? Always? Can you fill out that assertion any?

and often coaxed the results out of her collaborators (who often possessed the musical prowess she didn't to achieve her aspirations). I'm aware she's given Lindsey credit over the years for arranging many of her songs but whilst I acknowledge his many talents and great work on a selection of her numbers, I don't think he "polished any of her turds".I think he (in other words, Fleetwood Mac) polished more than a few of her turds; but also polished more than a few turds by Chris McVie & Lindsey Buckingham.

If Fleetwood Mac had never made any albums but had only published its songs on sheets of paper, would we even be here?

[trackaghost]

My recollection was that they were all holed up in a rented house in France to get Mirage finished. Still, Stevie could have easily had a terrific fourth song on that album in lieu of one of the fluffer-nutter pieces shat out by Lindsey or Christine, especially since she had newfound leverage within the band to demand things. With a little additional tinkering, "If You Were My Love" and/or "Smile at You" could have been hit singles.

I remember reading an article published by the magazine Record after Mirage was released where the band were all moaning about the fact that Stevie wasn't around much. It may be in the archives on this site.

Personally I don't think Smile At You or If You Were My Love would have fit on Mirage, as good as they are. I actually like all of Mirage though, I'm with HomerMcVie on this one.

[michelej1]

Incidentally, the vocal harmonies on that track are emblematic of Buckingham's vocal-layering methods, not Nicks's (whose style of vocal layering you can hear on her own albums).


Interesting distinction. Obvious, but something I never thought about really. Stevie's background vocals -- by herself or with Lori, Sharon, etc.-- are frequently great. They sometimes make a song, but they aren't layered. Stacked, but not layered.

Michele

[chiliD]

I remember reading an article published by the magazine Record after Mirage was released where the band were all moaning about the fact that Stevie wasn't around much. It may be in the archives on this site.

Are you sure it was Mirage? You aren't confusing that scenario with Tango In The Night?

[vivfox]

I LOVE Straight Back. I bought the album the day it was released so I heard the original version first. In 1983 I was friends with a girl who had the cassette and when I heard her version I was majorly impressed. Some of you felt it was overproduced in its second incarnation, but to me they made it more perfect. I love this song today as I first did in 1982.

[trackaghost]

Are you sure it was Mirage? You aren't confusing that scenario with Tango In The Night?

The article I remember was definitely about Mirage. I think it started back with Mirage but was even worse during the making of Tango.

Edit: found it, http://bla.fleetwoodmac.net/index.php?page=index_v2&id=184&c=11
I guess they are talking about the tour and the interview but I think it's certainly implied that it's something that happens in the studio too, all the "she gets bored in the studio" talk.

[LukeA]

In re: to "Gypsy"- the "Mirage" recording is great. They maximized/squeezed every ounce of potential out of that song- I mean, going WAY beyond just polishing the turd that is the BD version. Its not the band's fault "Gypsy" flopped as a single.

By that point, Stevie actively considered Fleetwood Mac a nuisance that interfered with her burgeoning solo career. She spent 1982 on auto-pilot, and kept the best material for herself.

[vivfox]

Edit: found it, http://bla.fleetwoodmac.net/index.php?page=index_v2&id=184&c=11


Wow. What an informative article. It seemed to me that Mick, Lindsey and Christine told Stevie exactly how they felt about her, through the press.

[vivfox]

In re: to "Gypsy"- the "Mirage" recording is great. They maximized/squeezed every ounce of potential out of that song- I mean, going WAY beyond just polishing the turd that is the BD version. Its not the band's fault "Gypsy" flopped as a single.


I agree that the BD version of Gypsy was a turd, but the Mirage version was a masterpiece. I don't remember its chart position but I wouldn't say it was a flop. In 1982 it was a huge radio staple. And how could we forget, it was the King of MTV.

[LukeA]

I agree that the BD version of Gypsy was a turd, but the Mirage version was a masterpiece. I don't remember its chart position but I wouldn't say it was a flop. In 1982 it was a huge radio staple. And how could we forget, it was the King of MTV.

A brand new Fleetwood Mac song sung by the newly minted Miss Queen of Rock #1 Album Stevie Nicks, bolstered by the most expensive music video ever, had a far higher potential ceiling than #12 (its peak) on the charts. This was 1982- they were fully expecting it to go to #1, and weren't crazy for thinking it would.

[silvasprings]

The article I remember was definitely about Mirage. I think it started back with Mirage but was even worse during the making of Tango.

Edit: found it, http://bla.fleetwoodmac.net/index.php?page=index_v2&id=184&c=11
I guess they are talking about the tour and the interview but I think it's certainly implied that it's something that happens in the studio too, all the "she gets bored in the studio" talk.

Wow, some of those comments were pretty harsh, poor Stevie, didn't they know that Robin was you know- kinda dying at this point it time...

Ease up a little.. it's the Lindsey and Christine bitching machine:shocked:

[jeffd8382]

Hey, I'm totally with you on this, and I just discovered FM. I went from Rumours to the White Album to Tusk to Mirage.. and so on..

And I freakin' LOVE Mirage.(This includes ALL of Lindsey and Stevie's songs and Christine's. Love in Store sounds great live.) My third favorite FM album after Tusk and Rumours. :thumbsup:

Also, thank you, awesome people who posted the LP version of Straight Back and the rehearsal, you rock!

You're welcome! And in case anyone missed it... you can listen to the original LP version of "Straight Back" HERE (http://songsoftheday.synthasite.com) (http://songsoftheday.synthasite.com) (under January 13, 2010), and compare for yourself with the CD version...

I really enjoy the LP version (getting to hear certain instruments and vocals that get a little buried in the remix), but having heard the CD version first (and for years)... it sounds a little flat without those vocal overdubs that were added (sounding almost like an early outtake version of the song to me).

[louielouie2000]

Wow, some of those comments were pretty harsh, poor Stevie, didn't they know that Robin was you know- kinda dying at this point it time...

Ease up a little.. it's the Lindsey and Christine bitching machine:shocked:

You can see how Stevie would rub them the wrong way though: essentially ONE person was famous for the work that five people did. And it really was the work of the other four members besides Stevie who made the Fleetwood Mac sound, as they were the musicians. It'd rub me the wrong way too if I were Chris or Lindsey, and Stevie wasn't there most of the time... then swept in and tried to call the shots. I think it's safe to say Chris and Lindsey were suffering from a bit of jealousy as well. Lindsey's first album didn't even sell a tenth of what Stevie's did. These folks had spent essentially night and day together for the better part of 7 years too... so they were all just sick of each other. I fully understand why Lindsey and Chris said the things they did... they could have been much, much meaner!

[michelej1]

And how could we forget, it was the King of MTV.


Yeah, you could not get away from that video. I never liked it. In fact, it moves me more now, when I see it playing up there on stage behind the present day Macsters, than it ever did back then.

I'd love to see the affectionate wink Christine threw Lindsey's way during that interview. Dare I say it. So cute.

Michele

[Phil]

Jesus David, that's quite a reaction to what was most definitely a "subjective" posting! Your assertion that my observations are stated as fact is merely your, err, observation after all.

I'd have preferred either of those, as well, to "Straight Back," but the band, for whatever reason, picked the three we got. The band has never addressed why Nicks has three songs on that album instead of four or five, so we can toss our guesses around.

Yep and that's exactly what I was doing. You may notice the inclusion of the odd question mark concluding a sentence or two within my posting, indicating a proposed idea or notion, not a statement of fact. Nothing ambiguous about that I would have thought.


In France for six or eight weeks only, pulling together basic tracks. In talking about that album, the band has always made it sound as if the majority of recording & virtually all the mixing were done in Los Angeles over the course of about 12 months (roughly, June 1981 to June 1982).

I have no reason to doubt what you state but that seems pretty much par for the course with Fleetwood Mac. Stevie's studio role has always been considered minimal by the band because being principally a vocalist and not a musician, she is essentially only required at intervals. If she were actually in attendance for that entire six to eight week period, I would have considered that a more prominent presence for her than usual. Just my thoughts mind!


That's your opinion, Phil. We all have our opinions, but you put forth yours as if it were observable fact, plain to one & all. I don't think much of "Straight Back" as a song & I'm not sure I think that "Gypsy" is terribly good, either. But I love the tracks that Fleetwood Mac builds around them, for which I give all of them & their engineers credit.

Yes that would be it David - my opinion, presented clearly as just that and nothing more (ie not an "observable fact"). If you've interpreted my opinions as fact, then I'd urge you to re-read my comments. Your thoughts regarding "Straight Back" and "Gypsy" are as valid as mine, and anyone else's for that matter. We all seem to co-exist rather well around these parts don't you think?


Maybe. Is there some way we can ask Lindsey, Mick, & Christine whether they were unwilling to include more Nicks material on Mirage because Stevie's natural brilliance cowed them? Maybe Stevie Nicks tried to buy her way out of the band, one of a bunch of rumors at the time. How much leverage did she have within the group at the time? I'm not sure she had any more than any of the others. Her solo success gave her a lot more leverage of her own career, but the idea that she was able to steer Fleetwood Mac this way or that starting in 1982 is pretty silly to me. Why didn't she demand a fourth song on Mirage? She didn't want to tour with the band in 1982, so why did she go at all?

That line of mine ("Maybe the potential embarrassment of being overshadowed by her natural brilliance, not to mention her rising star at the time, put paid to the inclusion of any additional material?") was designed to be tongue-in-cheek, but if the irony was lost on you, well then I just put that down to you being rather more literal of mind than I had previously imagined. No crime in that I suppose.

Furthermore, one need not ask any member of the band if they had "cowed" in Stevie's brilliance - it was simply written all over their faces. The sense of humiliation and defeat resonates from their very being to this day...

With regard to Stevie's leverage within the band, I doubt she had any whatsoever. The arrogance and Svengalism that abounded courtesy of those around her at the time put paid to that notion.


Her solo success gave her a lot more leverage of her own career, but the idea that she was able to steer Fleetwood Mac this way or that starting in 1982 is pretty silly to me.

Whose idea was this? Certainly not mine.


Why didn't she demand a fourth song on Mirage?

Why indeed - but then that's what we're here for my friend. Without our boundless imagination and speculation, what would this forum be?


Based on my observations, you're definitely in a minority on that point, a very small minority (numbering one, to be exact). But these are subjective preference matters, not objectively provable facts.

Once again, I think I was reasonably clear about being in a self-proclaimed minority regarding my thoughts on Lindsey's production of "Gypsy". Whether that numbers one or even less (depending on whether I can be considered a whole person) doesn't alter the fact that it is my opinion, not a "provable fact". However, I guess it remains to be seen whether I am the only one who feels this way, you never know my friend, as exacting as you are, there could be another deluded soul out there somewhere...


I love the way the Heartbreakers play in general, but those workouts of "Gypsy" are sort of dumb to me -- just fast-paced blues rock without any particular character beyond that & certainly no dynamics, no smooth texture, & no pentatonic hook.

Your thoughts again my dear, but hey, there's nuthin' wrong with that! I (personally) prefer this straightforward approach and consider Stevie's vocals to imbue sufficient character for my liking - they remain the focal point with no distractions and that's the way I like it.


Again we're discussing subjective impressions, but my impression is that Lindsey (in other words, Fleetwood Mac) added more than a "few flourishes here & there" (what flourishes?). The band built an elaborate orchestration into the track that was redolent of the complexity & exuberance of the arrangements & shape of tracks on "Rumours." Incidentally, the vocal harmonies on that track are emblematic of Buckingham's vocal-layering methods, not Nicks's (whose style of vocal layering you can hear on her own albums).

"What flourishes?" You're a touchy little madam ain't ya? As much as it pains me to admit, I have to disagree with you about the "elaborate orchestration" courtesy of our Linds. Frankly, I find his arrangement on this particular track to be rather pedestrian, not to mention repetitive. The bridge section in particular, in my opinion, is dull and uninspired. Thankfully, Stevie was able to disguise this shortcoming with a powerhouse vocal that wrenched us all from our slumber. Thank you Stevie!!

Granted, the layered backing vocals are typical of Lindsey and yes, they are beautifully employed this time around - you got me there! However, your assertion that these vocal harmonies are "emblematic of Buckingham's vocal-layering methods, not Nicks's" gives me moment for pause... What comes to mind is Lindsey's love of the derivative, you know, rooting from the vast canons of Phil Spector or Brian Wilson and then passing it off as invention or innovation on his part.

I should also point out that I'm not a major fan of the Rumours album, exuberant complexity or not. Sure, it contains masterpieces such as "Songbird", "Oh Daddy" and the salvaged "Silver Springs", but it is also home to the (in my opinion) worst song of all time - yep that dreaded "Go Your Own Way". Now that is one mighty turd!!


In pop music, a great track is a great song. A great song is also a great song, but it's not a necessity of a great track. More than just about any other contemporary rock band, Fleetwood Mac is proof of that, over & over again.

Yet who decides what is what? Me or you or anyone of the rest of us? Who can say? Come to think of it, perhaps I could convince all and one of such an observable fact?


Maybe I'm one of the people who underestimate her production skills. But I've never heard or seen evidence that she even has any production skills -- not in the sense that I understand production.

Maybe you have learning difficulties? Just a hunch.


I guess she was "instrumental" (whatever that means) in shaping some of her songs & not all that instrumental in shaping others.

I'll have to leave that up to you to ponder as I doubt I'm capable of an explanation...


She did? Always? Can you fill out that assertion any?

I feel in my nether regions (and I never argue with those) that Stevie most definitely ALWAYS knew and continues to know what she wants from a studio recording. That's why she's still contemplating taking a hit out on Lindsey after hearing the final Say You Will production (her angst, not mine mate).


I think he (in other words, Fleetwood Mac) polished more than a few of her turds; but also polished more than a few turds by Chris McVie & Lindsey Buckingham.

Well one man's turd is another's profiterole...


If Fleetwood Mac had never made any albums but had only published its songs on sheets of paper, would we even be here?

I reckon I would be - I'd be trying to decide between reinterpreting the material or wiping my arse with it... and you'd probably be crying into your beer.