What if?

[Meowi]

What if?

Peter Green Stayed
Buckingham Nicks never came to be
Rumours never happened
FM stayed a blues band


Scary thought?
What do you guys think

[slipkid]

What if?

Peter Green Stayed
Buckingham Nicks never came to be
Rumours never happened
FM stayed a blues band


Scary thought?
What do you guys think


Scary, are you kidding? ChiliD thinks they would've been better than Led Zeppelin. I think they could've been equals. If those "Live at the Boston Tea Party" tapes were released in 1970 as intended, Fleetwood Mac would've been a whole new ballgame in the United States.

Look, I know I'm in that minority red headed step-child section of what became a very successful pop band. Yet ask Mick Fleetwood the same question. He'd drop his current life (and band) in less than a second to bring back Peter Green's version of Fleetwood Mac. Why do you think he has a blues band on the side?

With all apologies to Jeremy Spencer, I think his time was up by 1970, and he had felt excluded for a long time. I think Peter's sudden departure put pressure on Spencer to stay longer than he wanted in the band. If Peter had not left 5/70, I think Spencer would've left in a more formal fashion to leave an opening for Christine McVie (Perfect). So the future of Fleetwood Mac would have been (ironically) the post Spencer 1971 U.S. tour, with more Peter Green songs in the setlist. There also would've been a four month U.S. tour beginning in 6/70 which would've solidified Fleetwood Mac as a legitimate concert band in America outside of the hippie ballroom circuit, on top of the release of the Boston live album. Peter Green's legacy in the U.S. would've been secured, and the rest of the history of FM would've been very different.


My best guess is that you would not have been a fan of that band. :) Otherwise the word "Scary" wouldn't have been used in your original post. Personally, this band would've been a member of the rock music ladder of great bands. The Rumours band is The Eagles, Jackson Browne, and other assorted California rock from that period. Very pop, very popular, and very successful, but not Peter Green Fleetwood Mac great.

[Meowi]

Scary, are you kidding? ChiliD thinks they would've been better than Led Zeppelin. I think they could've been equals. If those "Live at the Boston Tea Party" tapes were released in 1970 as intended, Fleetwood Mac would've been a whole new ballgame in the United States.

Look, I know I'm in that minority red headed step-child section of what became a very successful pop band. Yet ask Mick Fleetwood the same question. He'd drop his current life (and band) in less than a second to bring back Peter Green's version of Fleetwood Mac. Why do you think he has a blues band on the side?

With all apologies to Jeremy Spencer, I think his time was up by 1970, and he had felt excluded for a long time. I think Peter's sudden departure put pressure on Spencer to stay longer than he wanted in the band. If Peter had not left 5/70, I think Spencer would've left in a more formal fashion to leave an opening for Christine McVie (Perfect). So the future of Fleetwood Mac would have been (ironically) the post Spencer 1971 U.S. tour, with more Peter Green songs in the setlist. There also would've been a four month U.S. tour beginning in 6/70 which would've solidified Fleetwood Mac as a legitimate concert band in America outside of the hippie ballroom circuit, on top of the release of the Boston live album. Peter Green's legacy in the U.S. would've been secured, and the rest of the history of FM would've been very different.


My best guess is that you would not have been a fan of that band. :) Otherwise the word "Scary" wouldn't have been used in your original post. Personally, this band would've been a member of the rock music ladder of great bands. The Rumours band is The Eagles, Jackson Browne, and other assorted California rock from that period. Very pop, very popular, and very successful, but not Peter Green Fleetwood Mac great.

You know what? thats completely true :D
I only found out about Fleetwood Mac exactly one year ago, by watching School of Rock. I thought to my self, who is this elusive Stevie Nicks?

Anyway, here is another what if...

Stevie was not in the 'package'

[SteveMacD]

With all apologies to Jeremy Spencer, I think his time was up by 1970, and he had felt excluded for a long time. I think Peter's sudden departure put pressure on Spencer to stay longer than he wanted in the band. If Peter had not left 5/70, I think Spencer would've left in a more formal fashion to leave an opening for Christine McVie (Perfect).
I dunno about that, though. I think she would've happily retired and Jeremy's part of the set would've been filled with more jamming. If anything, I think they would've become the English equivalent of the Allman Bros., which isn't a bad thing by a long shot. I think the better "What If" is what if they had actually played Woodstock? Would it have helped them, or would it have hurt Santana and Ten Years After?

Personally, this band would've been a member of the rock music ladder of great bands. The Rumours band is The Eagles, Jackson Browne, and other assorted California rock from that period.
To say I don't agree would be an understatement. Fleetwood Mac back then was also connected to the likes of Eric Clapton, Tom Petty, Steve Winwood, Brian Wilson, Ron Wood, Rod Stewart, the Everly Bros., and George Harrison. That's what set them apart from the Eagles, Jackson Browne, et. al.

Very pop, very popular, and very successful, but not Peter Green Fleetwood Mac great.
Yeah, but it stopped be that immediately after Peter quit. I mean, that first album with Stevie and Lindsey wasn't too far removed musically from Kiln House or Bare Trees.

[louielouie2000]

Scary, are you kidding? ChiliD thinks they would've been better than Led Zeppelin. I think they could've been equals. If those "Live at the Boston Tea Party" tapes were released in 1970 as intended, Fleetwood Mac would've been a whole new ballgame in the United States.

Personally, this band would've been a member of the rock music ladder of great bands. The Rumours band is The Eagles, Jackson Browne, and other assorted California rock from that period. Very pop, very popular, and very successful, but not Peter Green Fleetwood Mac great.

I just don't know about that. The reason why Led Zepplin were so special and made it so big was because they took something very familiar, the blues, and put it into a blender with the then unheard of hard rock. They basically invented heavy metal. It was the innovation that put them on the map, and kept them there. Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac just wasn't that kind of innovative. While Peter was a fine guitar player (I don't think his tone and soul can be matched by anyone), the Green era Mac just didn't break any new ground. There wasn't anything inherently unique about what they were doing... which was essentially regurgitating blues standards. You could argue Led Zepplin did just the same thing... but they fused blues standards with hard rock, and created an entirely new genre. I often listen to Zepplin's albums and wonder just how alien they must have seemed when they first came out. We have to face it... Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac just isn't in that realm. They were just another British blues band (albeit with an exceptional guitar player). By the dawn of the '70s, popular music was moving on from the blues. Unless Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac came up with a way to set themselves apart and break some new ground, their biggest moments were always to be a flash in the pan in the '60s.

[LukeA]

Fleetwood Mac as big as Led Zeppelin? haaaaaa. They needed a viable, charismatic/interesting frontman to make that leap, and Peter wasn't/wouldn't have ever have been it. Their potential ceiling (of commercial success) was what Cream achieved. Nothing too legendary/earth shattering.

[dino]

The reason why Led Zepplin were so special and made it so big was because they took something very familiar, the blues, and put it into a blender with the then unheard of hard rock. They basically invented heavy metal. It was the innovation that put them on the map, and kept them there. Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac just wasn't that kind of innovative. .

Whaaat? Agree with the "made it big" part, not the "innovative" part. Post 1968 Mac - "Green Manalishi" and "Oh Well" (copied by Zeppelin, guess which song) are more innovative than anything Zep put out, it could be argued. To be fair, I have mostly heard their 2 first albums, which are very derivative, with most songs "borrowed" from black blues artists. Better production than Then Play On, though.

[bretonbanquet]

I just don't know about that. The reason why Led Zepplin were so special and made it so big was because they took something very familiar, the blues, and put it into a blender with the then unheard of hard rock. They basically invented heavy metal. It was the innovation that put them on the map, and kept them there. Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac just wasn't that kind of innovative. While Peter was a fine guitar player (I don't think his tone and soul can be matched by anyone), the Green era Mac just didn't break any new ground. There wasn't anything inherently unique about what they were doing... which was essentially regurgitating blues standards. You could argue Led Zepplin did just the same thing... but they fused blues standards with hard rock, and created an entirely new genre. I often listen to Zepplin's albums and wonder just how alien they must have seemed when they first came out. We have to face it... Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac just isn't in that realm. They were just another British blues band (albeit with an exceptional guitar player). By the dawn of the '70s, popular music was moving on from the blues. Unless Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac came up with a way to set themselves apart and break some new ground, their biggest moments were always to be a flash in the pan in the '60s.

Respectfully, that's very wide of the mark. Fleetwood Mac sold more records in 1969 than the Beatles or the Stones, let alone Led Zeppelin. They were a lot bigger than Zep when Peter left. By that time Mac had stopped "regurgitating blues standards" and were moving blues-rock a long way down the road towards shaping the kind of hard rock that dominated the 1970s. Zeppelin's albums alien? By what standards? Yes, by the dawn of the 70s popular music had moved away from the blues, and it was bands like Mac that did exactly that. Unless people are still labouring under the impression that Green Manalishi and Man of the World are old blues songs. Saying that the Green-era Mac didn't break any new ground is incredibly inaccurate.

Zeppelin are massively overrated in this concept of inventing heavy metal as well. Mildly heavy folk with a wailing bloke. Deep Purple and Black Sabbath were infinitely more influential than Zeppelin. I never saw Judas Priest cover any Zep songs. And let's not forget that "Whole Lotta Love" was just yet another blues standard tarted up and passed off as something else. Not only that, Fleetwood Mac had already introduced and dropped it from their set.

Fleetwood Mac as big as Led Zeppelin? haaaaaa. They needed a viable, charismatic/interesting frontman to make that leap, and Peter wasn't/wouldn't have ever have been it. Their potential ceiling (of commercial success) was what Cream achieved. Nothing too legendary/earth shattering.

As I said, they were bigger before Peter left. Bands don't necessarily require a charismatic frontman to become huge - Eagles etc - and suggesting that Cream were "nothing too legendary" is pretty funny.

[doodyhead]

the spring of 7o seemed like the end of the world

In the US "School" stopped (grade through graduateSchool) after the Kent State Jackson State National Guard shootings. The Viet Nam war was grinding on and Cambodia was being bombed. (apocalypse now). Blind faith was history The beatles were history, cream was history, Led Zeppilin was the second band on any card. Hendrix , who was, and joplin (who was not a big draw) were dead by the end of november
The Allman Brothers couldnt fill up any big stadiun yet. ABB big break wes two years later at watkins glen with the band and The Dead, Eric clapton was a doped out stoner and not even touring but tagging along with other bands

The big megga concerts were the only big shows and those were a culmination of Newport/Monterey/ woodstock/ilse of white

Hell the Dead were not a big draw. The only big single draw in the US was the Stones, and only due the being the last band standing.
If Iff If Peter had remained which I think he would have bolted in any event They would have changed the scene somewhat. but would they evolve into the death metal voodo spirit world cult crap, i think not. Jam band persona, maybe but I think he was, and rightly so, scared of the US. i know a lot of people who bolted during that time toget the heck out of harms way.
The seventies were annother matter

[trackaghost]

I'm still gobsmacked that Cream were just described as "nothing too legendary". And I'm saying this as someone who hates Clapton.
I don't know if Fleetwood Mac would have attained the same success as Led Zeppelin but I do think Peter would be nearer to the likes of Clapton in status. I know to many here and in Europe he's viewed that way, but not so much in the States, he's certainly not a household name the way Clapton is anyway.

[luckydimecaper]

I don't get this whole Peter Green vs. Buckingham/Nicks thing. It's weird because I see the two eras almost as completely different bands, and I love both! I'm really into the Buckingham/Nicks era and Nicks' solo stuff atm, and I'm just starting to get into the Bob Welch albums but the first FM material I ever loved was stuff like Green Manalishi and Oh Well, I think I had the 'Best of PG's FM' tape or something and I loved it. The thing I love most about FM is that they have evolved and changed so much over the past 40 years, it's their history that makes them so interesting.

[LukeA]

As I said, they were bigger before Peter left. Bands don't necessarily require a charismatic frontman to become huge - Eagles etc - and suggesting that Cream were "nothing too legendary" is pretty funny.

I was speaking entirely from a commercial perspective (which I thought I clearly noted in my post), and speculating on the potential success of the band if the lineup stayed intact. Cream is arguably the most successful British blues group of all time, so using them as a comparison/potential ceiling isn't exactly an insult, even if that commercial/popular success isn't anywhere near what Led Zeppelin achieved (thus, the comparison). PG-era Fleetwood Mac (as-is)/Cream/Led Zeppelin are all legendary in my eyes.

[holidayroad]

Anyway, here is another what if...

Stevie was not in the 'package'


I think Fleetwood Mac with Lindsey, Christine, Mick, and John would have been successful.

[vivfox]

I think Fleetwood Mac with Lindsey, Christine, Mick, and John would have been successful.

But with no drama! And a lot of us love that soap opera effect FM has on some of us.

[LukeA]

I think Fleetwood Mac with Lindsey, Christine, Mick, and John would have been successful.

Hmm. Its definitely interesting to consider. I wonder how many (if any) of the BN songs would have surfaced. Also, in this scenario, is Stevie completely out of the picture/out of Lindsey's life? (would they co-write anything even though she wasn't in the band?)

FM was inching towards commercial success in the US by '74. Its not a given that switching out Welch for Buckingham would have helped- it might have killed momentum for a couple years/albums.

[Wouter Vuijk]

Face it. Peter Greens FM died when Peter left. He did not leave for no reason, he felt he did not belong there where everybody wanted him. He actually has never been the hero the way WE saw him. Thus, would he have stayed, it would not have been the band we loved, admired, worshiped, etc. etc. etc. His senstive nature combined with his talent made him who he was as a musician at that time. Also, his sensitive nature led him to part. Should he not have left the band, that would imply he wouldn't have been who he was and FM would not have been the bluesband of those days.
In the later years Peter was very much influenced by the jamming style with the Grateful Dead. This was not commercial and I'm sure they would have ended up slightly out-of-the-picture.

So, the question "What if..." is only hypothtical, no chance it would have ever been possible.

Let's just embrace the fact they were as they were, and enjoy the music they left us.

Actualy the same goes for Danny.
As for Jeremy, I agree that would Peter have stayed, Jeremy would have left the band anyway. The musical direction of the band was not his. Also the pressure would have been too much for him, I guess.

[mzero]

Face it. Peter Greens FM died when Peter left. He did not leave for no reason, he felt he did not belong there where everybody wanted him. He actually has never been the hero the way WE saw him. Thus, would he have stayed, it would not have been the band we loved, admired, worshiped, etc. etc. etc. His senstive nature combined with his talent made him who he was as a musician at that time. Also, his sensitive nature led him to part. Should he not have left the band, that would imply he wouldn't have been who he was and FM would not have been the bluesband of those days.
In the later years Peter was very much influenced by the jamming style with the Grateful Dead. This was not commercial and I'm sure they would have ended up slightly out-of-the-picture.

i agree completely w/ wouter on this. the idea that fleetwood mac would have been as successful and influential as led zep is a crazy dream of mick fleetwood's. if pete had stayed its likely they would have made records that resembled end of the game more than then play on. then play on was mighty strange already - rattlesnake shake being an exception rather than representative.

it couldn't have happened that way and it wasn't meant to be. zero

[slipkid]

i agree completely w/ wouter on this. the idea that fleetwood mac would have been as successful and influential as led zep is a crazy dream of mick fleetwood's. if pete had stayed its likely they would have made records that resembled end of the game more than then play on. then play on was mighty strange already - rattlesnake shake being an exception rather than representative.

it couldn't have happened that way and it wasn't meant to be. zero

I'm sorry, I'm a sucker for "what if" threads. :D You, and Wouter are probably correct. It's always been a pipe dream that Peter would've stayed drugs, or not. He told Jeremy Spencer in 1967 that he gave the name of the band to Mick and John. Peter knew he was leaving eventually, for which had more in common with Eric Clapton, than Jimmy Page. The shame of it all is that Peter Green, and Danny Kirwan could've been a songwriting force. Peter was breaking away from the blues structure with "Then Play On". Danny was more a Brian Wilson/Lennon/McCartney songwriter, with a blues feel. They would've been perfect together. Wasn't there a British music paper interview in early 1970 that Peter claimed he and Danny had already written a lot of songs yet to be recorded? With Peter Green as the attraction, FM would not have gone underground for five years. Now on to reality:

The what if scenario that made Peter Green a guitar fan cult icon, instead of a household name was his timing in leaving. Had he stayed through the end of 1970, the Boston Tea Party shows would've been released through Warner Brothers with strong publicity. FM were supposed to do a four month U.S. summer tour beginning in June that would've expanded their audience beyond the hippie ballrooms. At least giving six more months of his time would've solidified Green's reputation as a guitarist alongside Duane Allman who died a year later. The U.S. audience didn't get the same exposure the U.K., and the rest of Europe had. At least Rick Vito saw Green in his prime the one time they played in Philadelphia.

Who knows, maybe one of the concerts that never took place would've been filmed by Bill Graham. Maybe they open for the Who at Tanglewood, MA 7/7/70, instead of Jethro Tull. The entire concert was filmed. Six more months, that's all they needed. People today would still be talking about the Boston Tea Party shows along with the Allmans at the Fillmore East.

[louielouie2000]

Face it. Peter Greens FM died when Peter left. He did not leave for no reason, he felt he did not belong there where everybody wanted him. He actually has never been the hero the way WE saw him. Thus, would he have stayed, it would not have been the band we loved, admired, worshiped, etc. etc. etc. His senstive nature combined with his talent made him who he was as a musician at that time. Also, his sensitive nature led him to part. Should he not have left the band, that would imply he wouldn't have been who he was and FM would not have been the bluesband of those days.
In the later years Peter was very much influenced by the jamming style with the Grateful Dead. This was not commercial and I'm sure they would have ended up slightly out-of-the-picture.

So, the question "What if..." is only hypothtical, no chance it would have ever been possible.

Let's just embrace the fact they were as they were, and enjoy the music they left us.

Actualy the same goes for Danny.
As for Jeremy, I agree that would Peter have stayed, Jeremy would have left the band anyway. The musical direction of the band was not his. Also the pressure would have been too much for him, I guess.

I think this has to be the best summation of early Fleetwood Mac I've ever read. The Green Era definitely should be looked at fondly as a moment in time... but not be overly interpreted as something it wasn't. Like you said, what made that incarnation so intriguing was it's fragile and flash in the pan nature. Had Peter been the more commercially driven, straight forward business mentality of say, Mick... then the magic wouldn't have been there. And what I mean by that is that Mick's #1 goal for the past 40 years has been keeping the band together, regardless of anything. Peter Green's agenda was to live his life in the way he felt suited him, and fortune and fame were not his goals. So to say that the band would have become huge if he would have stayed is a terrible misunderstanding of who he was. Obviously a big part of Peter's issues were mental health driven as well... but again, that is another big part of the intrigue and lore of that era.

[slipkid]

For those Pink Floyd fans who were there at the beginning ,and swear by Syd Barrett to this day, they only had that inventive band for about a year (maybe even less) before Syd went over the deep end. Yet some of his solo work is still quite good (another story). Peter Green in Fleetwood Mac almost made it to three years, and recorded a lot of material in such a short period of time.

[chiliD]

ChiliD thinks they would've been better than Led Zeppelin. I think they could've been equals.

No...never said "better"...."GREATER"...as in we'd be referring to them in the same reverence that we refer to Led Zep these days...and because of that, LZ wouldn't have reached that status at all. (plus, for me the best part, we wouldn't have had to put up with "Stairway To Heaven" all these years!!!)

And, we'd be asking "Clapton who?", since Peter Green would be the "household name guitarist" for all-time.

Oh...and before we forget...if it weren't for Cream, there'd be no Jimi Hendrix Experience. It was Jimi's seeing Cream that made him want a three piece band with Marshall stacks. And, in regards to Cream not being "commercial"?? Spoken by somebody who wasn't there at the time. "Sunshine Of Your Love", "Badge", "White Room", "Crossroads", "I Feel Free"....all hit singles. And, again...Cream was only together for less than 2 years (yes, TWO YEARS)...more like 18 months. Pretty influential if you ask me.

[doodyhead]

clapton was disillusioned by the pop staus of cream but certainly rode the train to stardom
if you read Hjorts quotes during the end of cream by clapton he was not playing the stuff he thought he would be and was looking to others for inspiration/guidance
the rollercoaster of fam.
peter got off as the train was leaving the station

[slipkid]

No...never said "better"...."GREATER"...as in we'd be referring to them in the same reverence that we refer to Led Zep these days...and because of that, LZ wouldn't have reached that status at all. (plus, for me the best part, we wouldn't have had to put up with "Stairway To Heaven" all these years!!!)


To me "better" is "GREATER". Back then talent meant something, that hasn't been the case since 1981 (MTV). Image has ruled ever since.

The problem is the never to be written/produced album Peter Green, and Danny Kirwan Fleetwood Mac would've recorded to overcome "Sticky Fingers", "Who's Next", and "Led Zeppelin IV"? You see at least a year into the future beyond 5/70. I just focus on what Peter Green was supposed to accomplish with Fleetwood Mac prior to his retirement announcement. It was a heavy four month summer tour of the U.S., in support of live LP from the Boston Tea Party. It would've been the tour that made Fleetwood Mac a success in the states. If Peter wanted to leave after that, fine. His impact would've been sealed.

[slipkid]

clapton was disillusioned by the pop staus of cream but certainly rode the train to stardom
if you read Hjorts quotes during the end of cream by clapton he was not playing the stuff he thought he would be and was looking to others for inspiration/guidance
the rollercoaster of fam.
peter got off as the train was leaving the station


I think both Clapton, and Green saw themselves as nomad guitarists. Unlike Green, Clapton embraced The Band, and Bob Dylan as a way out of his over powered heavy blues life with Cream. It was a smart move. He even toned it down with Blind Faith. He also played a Tele with a Strat headstock in Blind Faith, that's guitar shop worthy.

OTOH, Peter Green wanted to go back into the psychedelic haze that Clapton, and Jimi Hendrix has already experienced. He felt he had missed out while he played straight blues for at least a year and a half. The result was "End of the Game".

[LukeA]

And, in regards to Cream not being "commercial"?? Spoken by somebody who wasn't there at the time. "Sunshine Of Your Love", "Badge", "White Room", "Crossroads", "I Feel Free"....all hit singles.

More like "spoken by someone who was talking about album sales rather than perceptions of specific songs". Yes, Chili, I've heard of all of those songs, even though I wasn't there like you were. To repeat my original point, Cream, despite the vanguard of the British Blues genre in every conceivable way, was not a commercial force in the same vein as Led Zeppelin.

[jbrownsjr]

No...never said "better"...."GREATER"...as in we'd be referring to them in the same reverence that we refer to Led Zep these days...and because of that, LZ wouldn't have reached that status at all. (plus, for me the best part, we wouldn't have had to put up with "Stairway To Heaven" all these years!!!)

And, we'd be asking "Clapton who?", since Peter Green would be the "household name guitarist" for all-time.

Oh...and before we forget...if it weren't for Cream, there'd be no Jimi Hendrix Experience. It was Jimi's seeing Cream that made him want a three piece band with Marshall stacks. And, in regards to Cream not being "commercial"?? Spoken by somebody who wasn't there at the time. "Sunshine Of Your Love", "Badge", "White Room", "Crossroads", "I Feel Free"....all hit singles. And, again...Cream was only together for less than 2 years (yes, TWO YEARS)...more like 18 months. Pretty influential if you ask me.

Yeah Cream's problem was they hated each other... even in the reunion they started fighting again... They were on the verge...

[billwebster]

I'd be more interested in a "What If?" thread on the post-Rumours board along the lines of:

What if in 1991, the band had decided to record a follow-up album to "Behind the Mask" instead of putting out a boxed set.

"Love Shines" and "Paper Doll" surely would have made it onto that one - and Rick Vito probably wouldn't have left had he been allowed to contribute several new songs to the album.

Things might have been different with Stevie because of her prescription drug problem.

And we'll never know if the label would have liked the new band to put out another new album instead of "milking Rumours one more time" with the boxed set. Considering the fact that Mo Ostin and Lenny Waronker left Warners some time around 1992, it probably would not have mattered much.

Did John's Lola Thomas album begin to take shape before or after Rick Vito had left the band?

[chiliD]

More like "spoken by someone who was talking about album sales rather than perceptions of specific songs". Yes, Chili, I've heard of all of those songs, even though I wasn't there like you were. To repeat my original point, Cream, despite the vanguard of the British Blues genre in every conceivable way, was not a commercial force in the same vein as Led Zeppelin.

They weren't together long enough to BE that "commercial force in the same vein as LZ". Cream was broken up by the time LZ even formed. Cream had singles...Zeppelin didn't (except for the edited "Whole Lotta Love" and the non album track "Hey, Hey What Can I Do"). You'll NEVER convince me that Cream wasn't commercially viable...I was there, I witnessed it, I lived it....Cream WAS a commercial force...they just didn't last.

[jbrownsjr]

They weren't together long enough to BE that "commercial force in the same vein as LZ". Cream was broken up by the time LZ even formed. Cream had singles...Zeppelin didn't (except for the edited "Whole Lotta Love" and the non album track "Hey, Hey What Can I Do"). You'll NEVER convince me that Cream wasn't commercially viable...I was there, I witnessed it, I lived it....Cream WAS a commercial force...they just didn't last.

And they didn't last because they really didn't get along....

[chiliD]

And they didn't last because they really didn't get along....

...well, it was only Jack & Ginger who didn't get along. Eric got along with everybody! But, yeah, you're not going to have career longevity when 2/3 of the band is at war. Ironically, Jack & Ginger have had subsequent pseudo-Cream bands with ex-Humble Pie guitarist Clem Clempson & Gary Moore as guitarists. So, the hatred or not, they HAVE worked together pretty extensively even post-Cream.

[jbrownsjr]

...well, it was only Jack & Ginger who didn't get along. Eric got along with everybody! But, yeah, you're not going to have career longevity when 2/3 of the band is at war. Ironically, Jack & Ginger have had subsequent pseudo-Cream bands with ex-Humble Pie guitarist Clem Clempson & Gary Moore as guitarists. So, the hatred or not, they HAVE worked together pretty extensively even post-Cream.

I know it's weird.. It's like they get thru 95% of what they need to and then.. they fight or whatever and go off their separate ways..

[Wouter Vuijk]

I know it's weird.. It's like they get thru 95% of what they need to and then.. they fight or whatever and go off their separate ways..

Somehow this reminds me of the FM-BN line-up. :laugh:

[slipkid]

I know it's weird.. It's like they get thru 95% of what they need to and then.. they fight or whatever and go off their separate ways..

What's so petty about Cream, is even in their "later middle age", Ginger Baker, and Jack Bruce reverted to their childish behavior during the second group of reunion concerts at Madison Square Garden in late '05. Jack would turn up his bass on purpose to drown out Ginger. Jack was pulling that stunt in 1968, which led to the same tensions that ended the band. Let's just say we've seen our last Cream "reunion", and it was smartly recorded for preservation.


Personally I think Ginger has a chip on his shoulder for reasons I can't justify. He still to this day finds a way to take pot shots at Keith Moon because he wasn't a properly trained drummer, he was a force of nature, and ability. He never mentions him by name, but those interviews from the Royal Albert Hall '05 concert DVD reveal a lot of jealousy in-between the lines. Perhaps it's because Ginger ham hands his drum rolls while Keith had very fast wrists. It's obvious that neither Jack Bruce, and Ginger Baker have never matured beyond their strong egos despite that Ginger is now 70 years old, and Bruce is only four years behind.