Has anyone here NEVER heard the demo of Smile At You?

[vivfox]

Since you've never heard any of the demos for Smile At You, what is your opinion of the song on the Say You Will album? I'm curious because everyone who has heard any of its demos always like the demo better than the released track.

[daniellaaarisen]

I feel so sorry for the poor souls who have never heard that demo. It is pure magic.

[vivfox]

I feel so sorry for the poor souls who have never heard that demo. It is pure magic.
Well I agree. But I'd like to hear someone's opinion of the song because they don't know any better. Do they think it's a great song, mediocre, pretty good or dog poo?

[Nico]

I've heard it and have it on my iTunes. I love both, actually, because I can appreciate their different arrangements. I like the one on SYW just fine because it fits with the sound of that album quite a bit, but her demo is great because you can really heat the vengefulness in her voice, or maybe I do. Anyway, SAY is actually one of my fave SN songs on that album. I think it's one of her strongest songs...

But I do feel the demo is a little more powerful vocally, just like I prefer Lindsey's slowed down Say Goodbye.

[David]

The "demo" (I don't really think it's a demo) is cool because it's just the Macsters jamming live, & everybody sounds fiery. The track on the album is, I think, a complete mess. It's worse than the worst filler on the worst Jefferson Starship or Supertramp album.

[michelej1]

The "demo" (I don't really think it's a demo) is cool because it's just the Macsters jamming live, & everybody sounds fiery. The track on the album is, I think, a complete mess. It's worse than the worst filler on the worst Jefferson Starship or Supertramp album.

Well, so your vote is that it's FM playing. I think it's them, but it's a point of conflict.

Michele

[Black_Moon]

Well, so your vote is that it's FM playing. I think it's them, but it's a point of conflict.

Michele

I think it is too, I always was shocked when people said it was session players.

[LukeA]

Demo is unnecessarily abrasive all-around.. instrumentation is cliche at best, and Stevie's vocals never deviate from the replication of the sound of a car trying to start in a snowstorm. UNLISTENABLE.

[silvasprings]

Demo is unnecessarily abrasive all-around.. instrumentation is cliche at best, and Stevie's vocals never deviate from the replication of the sound of a car trying to start in a snowstorm. UNLISTENABLE.

WOW! we must have extremely different ears... Cause all i hear is pure unadulterated stevie on fire- as is fleetwood mac.

Sure it's abrasive, i'm so sorry that fleetwood mac doesn't polish up their demo's to perfection just for your ears...

[daniellaaarisen]

Demo is unnecessarily abrasive all-around.. instrumentation is cliche at best, and Stevie's vocals never deviate from the replication of the sound of a car trying to start in a snowstorm. UNLISTENABLE.

:eek:


I loooove this demo.

[SorcererJP]

Demo is unnecessarily abrasive all-around.. instrumentation is cliche at best, and Stevie's vocals never deviate from the replication of the sound of a car trying to start in a snowstorm. UNLISTENABLE.

Well, there are a few versions available I believe. The one we all are reffering to is also know as the 'angry version'.

Of course in the heydays of tapetrading tapes were copied and copied and copied and copied, so quality went downhill fast...but I think there are several threads on the Ledge were good versions of this one and others are available....

[TrueFaith77]

I don't want to hear the demo. And I love the album (obviously) and I think Smile At You is beautiful on the album. It's one of the tracks that constantly yield surprises for me.

[CADreaming]

So, is the "demo" just a scratch take from the SYW sessions?

[chriskisn]

No I've never heard the demo, really can't be bothered with them generally. There is plenty of legally released FM related stuff that I never get time to listen to as it is.

While the rest of you are listening to Stevie demos I'm listening to Brunning Sunflower Blues Band, Danny Kirwan, Savoy Brown or Billy Burnette (to name a few) ;)

As for the SYW version of Smile at You, I really like the song, it is one of the better songs on SYW (though to be honest I can only fault the last two tracks on the album anyway).

[SorcererJP]

So, is the "demo" just a scratch take from the SYW sessions?


No, it's much much older and Í always considered it a song as itself. You cannot compare (besides the lyrics) to the song on SYW.

t

[David]

Well, so your vote is that it's FM playing. I think it's them, but it's a point of conflict.Sounds like Lindsey & Mick on their respective instruments. Mick occasionally made recordings with Stevie's musician friends, but I don't think Lindsey did. As for the piano, it's exactly the same part played on the run-through a few years earlier. It isn't necessarily Christine-esque, but it isn't necessarily not, either. It's a repeating motive, hands close together part, which can be considered a Chris McVie practice.

I say it's FM. FM themselves say they tried tracking it during the Mirage sessions, but decided it was too "bitter" (or some such) for inclusion. You remember that.

What's kind of odd is that Ken Caillat says FM never tried it -- yet he knew about it. How would he have known about it if he hadn't heard FM try it? I think he was just mistaken.

We're at the point now (& I think we've been there for several years) where we can't completely trust the memories of anyone involved in FM work from those old years. Human beings are human beings, & they all get old & dotty. If you were to grab Hernan Rojas for a Q&A, he'd probably be fumbling around trying to remember things as they happened, too.

[michelej1]

I say it's FM. FM themselves say they tried tracking it during the Mirage sessions, but decided it was too "bitter" (or some such) for inclusion. You remember that.


Yes. Stevie said it in 1982.

Michele

[JeannieKartis]

Since you've never heard any of the demos for Smile At You, what is your opinion of the song on the Say You Will album? I'm curious because everyone who has heard any of its demos always like the demo better than the released track.

The demo kicks it..the version on SYW totally loses its passion....

[BellaDonna93]

I feel so sorry for the poor souls who have never heard that demo. It is pure magic.

I totally agree with you, Danni!!! The Smile At You "Angry" demo is one of the best demos she's ever done, I mean, just listen to the feeling in her voice and in the lyrics :thumbsup: :angel: It's, as you said, pure magic...:)

[wheart]

the demo I've heard, dubbed the "angry version" is possibly one of Stevie's greatest vocals ever. I love it when she's pissed and you can just hear the anger in every single note.

[chiliD]

Demo is unnecessarily abrasive all-around.. instrumentation is cliche at best, and Stevie's vocals never deviate from the replication of the sound of a car trying to start in a snowstorm. UNLISTENABLE.

Well, God-Damned, Luke! You & I acutally agree on this point!

Pfftt! I have NO hope for those who think "the angry version" is anything more than an out of control MESS of a vocal track. So WHAT if she was pissed off, it doesn't make a good vocal track in ANY stretch of the imagination...OR reality. The only thing "magical" about it is how it has gotten so many people think it's so wonderful. Pass the barf bag, PLEASE!!

AND, none of the "demos" that I've heard have that John McVie bass line that absolutely just MAKES the SAY YOU WILL version so superb.

[markolas]

The "angry" demo is a fiery performance for sure, but I honestly don't think the song itself is that great. I mean, I can't help but laugh every time I hear Stevie sing about her "flaming walls." :lol:

I need to listen to this album again - I haven't heard it in forever, but apparently there is a whole group of new Ledgies who were in kindergarten when it came out, and there's more conversation on here about it now than in 2003.

[michelej1]

The "angry" demo is a fiery performance for sure, but I honestly don't think the song itself is that great. I mean, I can't help but laugh every time I hear Stevie sing about her "flaming walls." :lol:



I'd have to agree that the song itself, any version, is not really exceptional in my book. I mean, I think I like the idea of it, but nothing about the actual song itself ever floored me. I like it well enough though. It just wouldn't make a list of favorites.

Michele

[TrueFaith77]

AND, none of the "demos" that I've heard have that John McVie bass line that absolutely just MAKES the SAY YOU WILL version so superb.

So true.

I think John's presence can really be felt on a lot of Stevie's tracks on this album -- to their benefit.

Also, as I recall, chili, you usually rank "Smile At You" as the album's best track.

[David]

I'd have to agree that the song itself, any version, is not really exceptional in my book. I mean, I think I like the idea of it, but nothing about the actual song itself ever floored me.The opening couplet --

Go on, save yourself
Leave the key here

-- is the best two lines Nicks ever wrote, by light years. You & I could spend hours analyzing it stylistically & thematically, but that would be boring. Suffice it to say that it's the most devastatingly succinct expression Nicks ever put into words. It's so unlike her. In fact, I'm inclined to believe she stole it from something or other.

The twiddly orchestration of this work on the Fleetwood Mac album is grotesque. It's nux vomica. It probably spreads swine flu, too. The lead vocal is worse than anything on the Mirror album, as well.

[markolas]

The opening couplet --

Go on, save yourself
Leave the key here

Except that it doesn't make sense within the context of the next two lines:

You love someone else
I shouldn't be here

Oh, I just listened to the SYW version and remembered what irked the hell out of me about this song (besides the above). It's the lyrics "I should have turned away and ran as fast as I can." I should have been an English teacher, I think.

Stevie's vocal is a bit strained, but I like the song otherwise. Except for the fact that I can't help thinking she's singing about a UTI. :laugh:

[Black_Moon]

Except that it doesn't make sense within the context of the next two lines:

You love someone else
I shouldn't be here
Oh, I just listened to the SYW version and remembered what irked the hell out of me about this song (besides the above). It's the lyrics "I should have turned away and ran as fast as I can." I should have been an English teacher, I think.

Stevie's vocal is a bit strained, but I like the song otherwise. Except for the fact that I can't help thinking she's singing about a UTI. :laugh:

I know what you mean, she should have said --

'You love someone else,
You shouldn't be here'

Who are we to question Stevie's warped logic though?

[chiliD]

So Also, as I recall, chili, you usually rank "Smile At You" as the album's best track.

The more I listen to the album, that "best track" changes upon just about each listen, but it's always in the Top 3 or 4....but, 7 times out of 10 it's #1.

I definitely think her good songs are really good...but, her bad songs are REALLY bad and Lindsey's "bad" songs are still pretty decent.

[fleetwoodtrick]

If you have not heard this demo, I pray for you. Because you have not lived.

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Please, the play button is calling you.

[starshine]

I love the 'angry' version also of Smile At You.....but I've always thought it was a Mirage 'outtake' more than a demo. We do tend to use the word demo too much. There are also alternate versions/Masters of course/outtakes ....many many outtakes of various songs/than there is the unpolished demos/extended versions....I guess the list can go on & on really? Of course there is a shorter Tusk SAY as well but I prefer the Mirage version.....not a fan of the SYW version.....esp the lyric changes ugh.....anyway....thats IMO........:shrug::nod:

[SortaSavageLike]

I've never understood the conceit, held by some, that every Mac tune needs to be so lushly produced that it sounds like it's emerging from the mists of Shangri-La... or something like that. There's nothing objectively wrong with them being sloppy, rough, or hard-edged every now and then, even if it means deviating from expectations (oooh, scary!:rolleyes:).

[TrueFaith77]

I know what you mean, she should have said --

'You love someone else,
You shouldn't be here'



You couldn't say that to Bob Dylan! :wavey:

[TrueFaith77]

I've never understood the conceit, held by some, that every Mac tune needs to be so lushly produced that it sounds like it's emerging from the mists of Shangri-La... or something like that. There's nothing objectively wrong with them being sloppy, rough, or hard-edged every now and then, even if it means deviating from expectations (oooh, scary!:rolleyes:).

I don't disagree with you. I just think that people expressing disappointment that they didn't do it this one time is kinda like... what did you expect?

To get to your point. Lindsey made Under the Skin because he wanted to make an album in the style of The Dance versions Big Love and Go Insane because of the incredible response they get from audiences. AND UNDER THE SKIN is what he came up with?!?! (The closest studio song to those two songs would be Bel Air Rain.) This is what they do. It just is. That's why I wish they had more Live albums -- or would even do an Unplugged session. Not in place of their perfectionist studio productions, but as complimentary performances.

[michelej1]

Except that it doesn't make sense within the context of the next two lines:

You love someone else
I shouldn't be here




Well, what if it was the key to a motel that you rent by the hour?

Or, what if they rented themselves a secret little love shack on the bad side of town where they could meet for their rendezvous. In that case, maybe neither of them should be there. He should leave the key, so she can end the lease and trot back to her own home.

As for turned and ran -- there's no way out of that:laugh:!

Michele

[LukeA]

To get to your point. Lindsey made Under the Skin because he wanted to make an album in the style of The Dance versions Big Love and Go Insane because of the incredible response they get from audiences. AND UNDER THE SKIN is what he came up with?!?! (The closest studio song to those two songs would be Bel Air Rain.)

"Time Precious Time"?!?!?!

[Peestie]

I knew the SYW version before I heard the demo version and I don't see the point in listening to the demo ever again. It's fine but it just isn't as interesting as the SYW version. The SYW version has that excellent guitar work at the end and, as Chilli mentioned, the fantastic bass line.

[TrueFaith77]

"Time Precious Time"?!?!?!

Oh, that is clearly in that vein as well, so we're on the same page... but I meant "closest" in terms of being within that vein and similarly enjoyable. :lol:

I knew the SYW version before I heard the demo version and I don't see the point in listening to the demo ever again. It's fine but it just isn't as interesting as the SYW version. The SYW version has that excellent guitar work at the end and, as Chilli mentioned, the fantastic bass line.

I just listened to it. And I totally agree. ... Now, if she wanted to do a LIVE version of it where she got looser on the vocals on top of Lindsey and John's tender playing... then that'd be cool by me.

[BellaDonna]

I totally agree with you, Danni!!! The Smile At You "Angry" demo is one of the best demos she's ever done, I mean, just listen to the feeling in her voice and in the lyrics :thumbsup: :angel: It's, as you said, pure magic...:)

I totally agree with you both! Love love love it!!! :nod:

[steviefan59]

hi guys...well i'm in agreement with the majority and love love love the angry smile at u demo...it's one of my fav demos that stevie has made...as to not caring about the demos that stevie has out there i feel so sorry that u've missed so many bc there are a lot of wonderful early demos of the angel voiced stevie from the early 80's and they send chills down my spine...i could listen to them for decades and never get tired but i still have time for new music as well...that's the joys of itunes and mp3s...u can mix and match all ur favs...i do think syw is very monotoned and i think a lot of that is a result of lindseys influence in the production...don't get me wrong...he's a genious and has done an excellent job of interpreting stevies music over the years for the mac but i don't feel he has the same interest in doing it now...and i love stevie's bob dylan line...an artist is an artist and stevie has def proved she is one...they don't like to take direction or criticism in the wording of a song and with stevie having made a solid solo career she would def take exception to that...hugs pat

[APerfectLie]

Except that it doesn't make sense within the context of the next two lines:

You love someone else
I shouldn't be here

Oh, I just listened to the SYW version and remembered what irked the hell out of me about this song (besides the above). It's the lyrics "I should have turned away and ran as fast as I can." I should have been an English teacher, I think.

Stevie's vocal is a bit strained, but I like the song otherwise. Except for the fact that I can't help thinking she's singing about a UTI. :laugh:

Somebody said something about them maybe being in a hotel and that Stevie is saying for him to leave his key there and that she shouldn't be there to begin with, which I think makes a lot of sense. Also, knowing how Stevie likes to change person I think she could be saying the "Go on save yourself, leave the key here" to herself and then the "you love someone else, I shouldn't be here" to whoever she was talking to. I think stevie is pissed that he is cheating, but deep down she doesn't want it to end so she is having to tell herself to "save yourself" and "leave the key there" before she gets hurt even more.

And about "I should have turned away and ran as fast as I can" it isn't grammatically correct, but for some reason I always thought it was "fast as I CAME" instead of "fast as I CAN" but I am pretty sure it says "can" in the lyrics, so I don't know.

I think the demo is great for us Stevie fans and I really love it, but I think the SYW version is just as good, and much better as a song. It has unique music and you can still hear some anger in Stevie's voice at some parts. However, the SYW version doesn't have some of the lyrics the demo has, which is something I don't like about it. But I like them both so I can't say really which one I personally prefer, it just depends on my mood.

[David]

Does anyone else get as great a joy as I get out of the playing on the demo? I don't care about anger issues in the singers, but I sure love that playing: that walloping Mick Fleetwood drumming & that jagged Lindsey Buckingham electric guitar, slashing across the song like a machete.

They're a band here. They're fierce and funky.

On the 2003 track, there's no there there. It's ****. It's elevator music.

[David]

I knew the SYW version before I heard the demo version and I don't see the point in listening to the demo ever again.Then I'm not your friend any longer. :(

[CADreaming]

Does anyone else get as great a joy as I get out of the playing on the demo? I don't care about anger issues in the singers, but I sure love that playing: that walloping Mick Fleetwood drumming & that jagged Lindsey Buckingham electric guitar, slashing across the song like a machete.

They're a band here. They're fierce and funky.

On the 2003 track, there's no there there. It's ****. It's elevator music.

So, you're saying that Fleetwood Mac as a band has gotten progressively worse?

[David]

So, you're saying that Fleetwood Mac as a band has gotten progressively worse?Yes! They haven't demonstrated the evolution that we saw in Shakespeare or Michelangelo. Or consider the advances Beethoven himself made in his final five years. Practically no major composer of the next 100 years escaped the profound influence of his final symphony, his final mass, his final piano sonatas, or his final string quartets. For Mendelssohn, the grandeur of the Ninth Symphony gave rise to the Hymn of Praise in his own Second Symphony. For Wagner, the addition of voices in the finale of the Ninth confirmed his view of the supremacy of vocal music. For Brahms, Bruckner, & others, Beethoven's final works were a model of pure instrumental music at its apogee, while Mahler took the cosmic breadth of the Ninth & the Missa Solemnis as a starting point for his own symphonies. Schumann actually quoted a theme from Beethoven's An die ferne Geliebte in his C major Fantasy. Webern was attracted to the compression & concentration of the late bagatelles.

Beethoven was the titan who effected a revolution in music every bit as fundamental as the French Revolution in politics. He was in some senses very much a man of his age, expanding the forms & genres he inherited & infusing them with personal vision & the spirit of the age, but he is also a man for every age. His music influences the course of composition to this day. Its enormous intellectual strength & ingenuity are almost unfathomable, as scholars examining his manuscripts have recently shown. Beethoven embodies every human state of emotion: from triumph to despair, from joy to darkness.

Fleetwood Mac has not lived up to the Beethovenian model, the Beethovenian ideal.

What are your thoughts?

Oh, I wish strand were still here!

[daniellaaarisen]

What are your thoughts?


I think that, at times, the band (read: Lindsey) focuses more on Fleetwood Mac's experimental "new direction" more than the artistry of the music. It worked with Tusk because everyone was younger, at their creative primes and fresh off of a formula that was pretty much guaranteed to work. They strayed from Rumours, sure, but not that much. They still sounded like a band, not three different creative voices under one disjointed name. Even Christine and Stevie's songs were influenced by Lindsey's "new direction" but the diversity was still there.... yet the band was the band-- a union of five that was so sweetly distinctive in both the individuals and as a whole.

I think the potential is there. Do I think anyone is going to see the light anytime soon and change the dynamic? No. The unity needs to come back before the phenomenal music can.... and it needs to be consistent.

[GypsyBlueEyes]

I've got to say, I don't understand how anyone could not love this demo. I love everything about it. The lyrics are amazing. The rawness and intensity is unbelievable, especially the last two minutes, and every time she throws down the lines "my first mistake was to smile at you," "my heart was broken," and "that love was stolen" you know she meant it. All the long "ohs" and "yeahs" pull the whole thing together. It wouldn't be the same without them. The passion that bleeds from her vocal is gorgeous. This is a prime example of why people always love the demos so much more than the final product.

[CADreaming]

Yes! They haven't demonstrated the evolution that we saw in Shakespeare or Michelangelo. Or consider the advances Beethoven himself made in his final five years. Practically no major composer of the next 100 years escaped the profound influence of his final symphony, his final mass, his final piano sonatas, or his final string quartets. For Mendelssohn, the grandeur of the Ninth Symphony gave rise to the Hymn of Praise in his own Second Symphony. For Wagner, the addition of voices in the finale of the Ninth confirmed his view of the supremacy of vocal music. For Brahms, Bruckner, & others, Beethoven's final works were a model of pure instrumental music at its apogee, while Mahler took the cosmic breadth of the Ninth & the Missa Solemnis as a starting point for his own symphonies. Schumann actually quoted a theme from Beethoven's An die ferne Geliebte in his C major Fantasy. Webern was attracted to the compression & concentration of the late bagatelles.

Beethoven was the titan who effected a revolution in music every bit as fundamental as the French Revolution in politics. He was in some senses very much a man of his age, expanding the forms & genres he inherited & infusing them with personal vision & the spirit of the age, but he is also a man for every age. His music influences the course of composition to this day. Its enormous intellectual strength & ingenuity are almost unfathomable, as scholars examining his manuscripts have recently shown. Beethoven embodies every human state of emotion: from triumph to despair, from joy to darkness.

Fleetwood Mac has not lived up to the Beethovenian model, the Beethovenian ideal.

What are your thoughts?

Oh, I wish strand were still here!


Well, I'm fascinated by your view. I also think it ironic, because of LB's comment in Destiny Rules - about "teaching these young punks how to play".

In some ways, I think his playing has evolved and for the better. Really, in many ways I think that. When I listened to his "introduction" piece on the Out of the Cradle album compared with any of his acoustic work today, I definitely think LB's playing has been refined through the years. And, I was impressed with the band as a whole, overall, at my first two Mac shows this summer. However, to adequtely compare we would have to hear just Mick, John, and Lindsey - without the "extras" thown in the mix.

Now, when you are comparing are you only listening for the music nuances or do you also critique the vocals? And, do you think it's fair to make vocal comparisons?

[strandinthewind]

IMO - the best version. Clever vocals et al

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=batch_download&batch_id=Z01OVWRwTlFvQUkwTVE9PQ

And, David - I agree with the analogy - query if La Nicks could write something like the Ninth (celestial) with little to no hearing :shrug:

As for the SYW version - the vocal, for her, was searing. The production was Muzak worthy. I agree with her when she said LB's production was not as good as some of the demos. Such is life.

[vivfox]

I've got to say, I don't understand how anyone could not love this demo. I love everything about it. The lyrics are amazing. The rawness and intensity is unbelievable, especially the last two minutes, and every time she throws down the lines "my first mistake was to smile at you," "my heart was broken," and "that love was stolen" you know she meant it. All the long "ohs" and "yeahs" pull the whole thing together. It wouldn't be the same without them. The passion that bleeds from her vocal is gorgeous. This is a prime example of why people always love the demos so much more than the final product.

I totally agree with you. However the reason I started this thread was to find out if anyone enjoyed the SYW version without ever having heard the demo and after reading everyone's responses I have gathered that had we never heard this demo we'd probably love this song from the album. Those of us who have heard the demos could never accept the album version because we feel it lacks the passion of the demos and those of us who never heard the demos will defend the beauty of the album version till the end of time. My final observation: We Are All Right.

[mylittledemon]

I'm curious because everyone who has heard any of its demos always like the demo better than the released track.

I don't believe I've heard it, then again, I don't particularly care for the song anyhow.

La Nicks

I thought we were close to getting rid of this. ;)

[michelej1]

I totally agree with you. However the reason I started this thread was to find out if anyone enjoyed the SYW version without ever having heard the demo and after reading everyone's responses I have gathered that had we never heard this demo we'd probably love this song from the album. Those of us who have heard the demos could never accept the album version because we feel it lacks the passion of the demos and those of us who never heard the demos will defend the beauty of the album version till the end of time. My final observation: We Are All Right.

I've heard the demo and liked it well enough. It seems to me I had 2 or 3 of them, although I don't know how they vary from one another. I liked them fine. Then when SYW came out, I liked the SYW official version just about as much. The demos do not seem at all superior to the SYW version to me.

I just like the song. I don't really, really love it. Maybe you have to be passionate about it. But the demo doesn't spoil my appreciation for the SYW version by a long shot. Michele

[Peestie]

Then I'm not your friend any longer. :(

I am sorry, David. That's just how I feel. :sorry:

[David]

I am sorry, David. That's just how I feel. :sorry:Ok. Then we're still friends. :nod:

[David]

And, David - I agree with the analogy - query if La Nicks could write something like the Ninth (celestial) with little to no hearing :shrug:She couldn't spell "celestial" -- deaf or no.

As for the SYW version - the vocal, for her, was searing.You couldn't sear a scallop with it.

Welcome back to our ledgie world! :blob2: :blob1:

[michelej1]

She couldn't spell "celestial" -- deaf or no.



Celestia was Anne Heche's name when she went crazy and thought she was God.

Michele