NME article [Archive]

slipkid

08-14-2009, 12:49 AM

If Peter could've stayed in the the line-up just another six months, his future would've been very different. The Boston Tea Party shows would've been released the same year as "Live at Leeds", and "Get Your Ya Ya's Out". That album would've changed the band in the U.S.. Even if Green had left at the end of 1970, his legacy would've been sealed in America instead of his cult status among musicians, and anglophiles in the states. One listens to those concerts in the winter/spring of 1970, compared to concerts from '69, and this is a band on the verge of greatness. By 1970, they had figured out how to balance Spencer, Green, and Kirwan songs that didn't bore the audience. When I first discovered this version of FM years ago, you heard "acid casualty". Being a Syd Barrett Pink Floyd fan I know what "acid casualty" truly was when Barrett could no longer play with Pink Floyd on stage, and stood still in silence. From the live recordings that exist after "Munich", Peter Green was playing his very best. :shrug:

P.S. thanks dansven for the work it took to post this.

dansven

08-14-2009, 02:30 AM

Thanks friends! :)

Slipkid, that's interesting ... comparing the Boston recordings with "Ya Ya's" and "Leeds". :nod:
I've posted another article on the Pre-Rumours forum .. also something that "could have been".

slipkid

08-14-2009, 07:46 AM

Thanks friend! :)

Slipkid, that's interesting ... comparing the Boston recordings with "Ya Ya's" and "Leeds". :nod:
I've posted another article on the Pre-Rumours forum .. also something that "could have been".

Even though it wasn't released until years later, the three volume Boston set should stand along "Leeds" and "Live at the Fillmore East" (Allman Bros.) as the best live rock albums of all time. I mentioned Ya Ya's because it was released in '70, but I don't think it's the best or one of the best live albums, though it is very good. I have a Stones at Leeds '71 boot that kills Ya Ya's.

Another reason to stick it out for another six months: Kiln House (with Peter Green). "Loving Kind", "Only You", and "Sandy Mary" never made it to the recording studio (outside of the BBC). Add those dual guitar gems to the existing album and it's another animal.

dansven

08-14-2009, 07:59 AM

In my last post it was supposed to be "friends" in plural! :woohoo:

dansven

08-14-2009, 08:11 AM

Even though it wasn't released until years later, the three volume Boston set should stand along "Leeds" and "Live at the Fillmore East" (Allman Bros.) as the best live rock albums of all time.
Yes, I am not that familiar with the Allman brothers album, but imo Mac's Tea Party beats both the Who and Stones. :D

It's also interesting that Peter revisited a couple of his own blues songs, both as studio outakes and onstage. I'm thinking about "Fast Talking Woman Blues" (based on "Driftin'") and "Leaving Town Blues" from BBC/Show-Biz Blues album. Both songs were unreleased at the time ... So I've always imagined that the next FM album (if Peter had stayed) would have contained one of these.... :shrug:

I have a live bootleg with the Kiln House line-up (can't remember the date), and Danny actually did "Like It This Way" alone. And although he did a fine job, it's still quite sad. Because the absence of Peter is so evident on that song, where there should have been two duelling guitars.

Ms Moose

08-14-2009, 09:12 AM

Hi folks!

I promised a looooooooong time ago to post an old NME article where Peter mentioned the Green-Kirwan intrumental album that never materialized. (Remember, Sharksfan?;) )
The article was called "Why Peter Green wants to give away his money".

I have several articles and interviews from 1968-70, and I'd gladly post more, but it takes time because I am no computer Einstein and the limit for pictures is 100 kb. So I have to split them up...

So this is rather caveman-ish, but I hope you folks enjoy! :p

Daniel

Thank you very much for posting this article dansven. Music magazines at the end of the sixties were great. I remember reading NME as a very young kid, but alas! I was not interested in FM then, so I never kept them! So it is really really nice to see this article. Like Sharksfan2000 I would appreciate if you some time - along the way - have the time and patience to struggle with whatever it takes (I am an IT- illiterate myself, so I know how it is).

Thanks again - Ms Moose :woohoo:

dino

08-14-2009, 09:12 AM

Thank you, Daniel!
Greeny comes across as very clear-headed in that interview, more Bob Geldof than Syd Barrett.
Please put up more stuff when you have time ;)

sharksfan2000

08-14-2009, 09:14 AM

I have a live bootleg with the Kiln House line-up (can't remember the date), and Danny actually did "Like It This Way" alone. And although he did a fine job, it's still quite sad. Because the absence of Peter is so evident on that song, where there should have been two duelling guitars.
I know what you mean about that Kiln House era "Like It This Way", Daniel (that boot is listed as Fillmore West, 7 August 1970, one of their first live shows after Peter left the band). I've only heard it from that one date, so maybe they quickly figured out that it didn't work without both Danny and Peter. Considering how crucial their guitar interplay was to that song, I'm surprised Danny even attempted it without Peter.

dansven

08-14-2009, 09:22 AM

Greeny comes across as very clear-headed in that interview, more Bob Geldof than Syd Barrett.
:laugh:

I know what you mean about that Kiln House era "Like It This Way", Daniel (that boot is listed as Fillmore West, 7 August 1970, one of their first live shows after Peter left the band). I've only heard it from that one date, so maybe they quickly figured out that it didn't work without both Danny and Peter. Considering how crucial their guitar interplay was to that song, I'm surprised Danny even attempted it without Peter.
Yes, that's the one. Thanks for the date! And perhaps it was right of them to leave it and look forward instead..

Check out the Pre-Rumours forum for another article! ;)

chiliD

08-14-2009, 03:09 PM

Even though it wasn't released until years later, the three volume Boston set should stand along "Leeds" and "Live at the Fillmore East" (Allman Bros.) as the best live rock albums of all time.

To me:

Everything else pales in comparison to the Allman Bros Live At The Fillmore East. Long been touted as the best live album ever released, bar none. Derek & The Dominos' In Concert is far back at #2. The Live At The Boston Tea Party is probably a distant third. Live At Leeds, as originally released with only 5 tracks, is pathetic...it wasn't until they reissued the expanded version on CD that it's true "worth" finally appears, too little, too late. The Stones didn't release a decent live album until Flashpoint. Ten Years After's Recorded Live is definitely in the Top 5 of all-time live albums. And, let's not forget Jimi Hendrix's Band Of Gypsys.:thumbsup:

slipkid

08-14-2009, 05:12 PM

To me:

Everything else pales in comparison to the Allman Bros Live At The Fillmore East. Long been touted as the best live album ever released, bar none. Derek & The Dominos' In Concert is far back at #2. The Live At The Boston Tea Party is probably a distant third. Live At Leeds, as originally released with only 5 tracks, is pathetic...it wasn't until they reissued the expanded version on CD that it's true "worth" finally appears, too little, too late. The Stones didn't release a decent live album until Flashpoint. Ten Years After's Recorded Live is definitely in the Top 5 of all-time live albums. And, let's not forget Jimi Hendrix's Band Of Gypsys.:thumbsup:

Something told me you would come here to defend the Allman Brothers. :D

I don't know about the "long been touted". As far as I can tell, you had those that chose Fillmore, and others that chose Leeds. Jam band vs. the power chord. While Leeds was only five songs originally, side two of that album was freakin' amazing. I don't agree that Live in Boston is a distant third, in fact it's now my favorite by a long shot. What suffers from "Fillmore" is Whipping Post and You Don't Love Me. The jams get a little stale. Now Hot Lanta, and Liz Reed are perfect. Band of Gypsys is a good one, so is Dominoes Fillmore, which was released in '94. In the jamming dept. I like the way that Green and Kirwan hold my attention, where other bands (Grateful Dead of course) can get quite boring. So for me it's Boston all the way.

chiliD

08-14-2009, 05:46 PM

Something told me you would come here to defend the Allman Brothers. :D

I don't know about the "long been touted". As far as I can tell, you had those that chose Fillmore, and others that chose Leeds. Jam band vs. the power chord. While Leeds was only five songs originally, side two of that album was freakin' amazing. I don't agree that Live in Boston is a distant third, in fact it's now my favorite by a long shot. What suffers from "Fillmore" is Whipping Post and You Don't Love Me. The jams get a little stale. Now Hot Lanta, and Liz Reed are perfect. Band of Gypsys is a good one, so is Dominoes Fillmore, which was released in '94. In the jamming dept. I like the way that Green and Kirwan hold my attention, where other bands (Grateful Dead of course) can get quite boring. So for me it's Boston all the way.

I fail to understand how ANYONE can call "Whippin' Post" & "You Don't Love Me" ...st-st-st-stale (?!?!?!). Same with the 40+ minute "Mountain Jam" from the Fillmore Concerts reissue (identical track as the one on Eat A Peach) For me, those 20+ minutes go by like they're barely 5 minutes. (Granted, same thing with the Boston Tea Party versions of "Rattlesnake Shake", too).

I'm one of those who think that HAD Peter found a way to stay and Fleetwood Mac released a double live album from those Boston shows in '70, they would've, dare I say, "ruled the world"...we'd be asking "Led Zeppelin, who?" (but, then, we'll never know where the Allman Bros would've gone had Duane Allman & Berry Oakley lived, either....plus, Hendrix, Janis, Morrison, etc, we just lost too many great ones too soon)

Cream never put out a real live album while they were together...just live tracks mixed with studio tracks for their last two albums. The two live albums they DID release were well after they'd broken up...so I don't really count those, since they're mish-mash from different shows, not all from one concert or series of shows within 24-48 hours. But, if they had, they'd be up there!

Yeah, I like the Dominos' Fillmore set, too...but, I prefer a couple of track choices from the In Concert album better...for example, "Why Does Love Got To Be So Sad?"...the In Concert version is far superior to the version from the Fillmore set...can't recall off the top of my head, but it's from either the evening show on the same day, or the next night. I think "Let It Rain" & "Tell The Truth" are also from different shows between the two sets, but for the most part, the Fillmore set is just an expanded version of In Concert.

The only real downside of Hendrix's Band Of Gypsys is Buddy Miles' scat singing...its great in a few places, but he just didn't seem to know when to back off. I read a thing where when Jimi was mixing the tapes for release, he just put his head in his hands and screamed "Buddy, shut the f**k UP!!!". Unfortunately, he didn't live long enough to hear the final product.

Now, for the most part, I'm right there with you regarding the Grateful Dead...love 'em a lot, but damned they can get boring quite often.

slipkid

08-15-2009, 12:58 AM

I fail to understand how ANYONE can call "Whippin' Post" & "You Don't Love Me" ...st-st-st-stale (?!?!?!). Same with the 40+ minute "Mountain Jam" from the Fillmore Concerts reissue (identical track as the one on Eat A Peach) For me, those 20+ minutes go by like they're barely 5 minutes. (Granted, same thing with the Boston Tea Party versions of "Rattlesnake Shake", too).

I was aware of "Mountain Jam" from the "Fillmore Concerts". Since that came from "Eat a Peach", I left it alone, and it's better than Whippin' Post, and You Don't Love Me/Soul Serenade by many miles.

I don't want to get technical, but the Allmans' (when Duane was alive) had a tendency to get "stuck in a rut" with their solos. This is sacrilege I know, but Derek Trucks, and Warren Haynes are doing the '69-'71 Allmans today in the 2.0 version, and I love it! In fact I saw the Allmans in '89, and many say that Haynes doing Duane Allman, with a sober Dickey Betts maybe one of the best line-ups ever.

I'm one of those who think that HAD Peter found a way to stay and Fleetwood Mac released a double live album from those Boston shows in '70, they would've, dare I say, "ruled the world"...we'd be asking "Led Zeppelin, who?" (but, then, we'll never know where the Allman Bros would've gone had Duane Allman & Berry Oakley lived, either....plus, Hendrix, Janis, Morrison, etc, we just lost too many great ones too soon)

You get my original point with Fleetwood Mac! If the Boston shows were released in their period of time (instead of 1985 on LP), it would've changed everything for the band. What scared Peter Green was that the entire summer of 1970 was supposed to be another four month U.S. tour, and he didn't want to do it. If he had the stamina to pull it off, I could almost guarantee, that we would've never had that self titled album with the witch from CA, and that other album called Rumours. They were THAT close to greatness. :distress:

Cream never put out a real live album while they were together...just live tracks mixed with studio tracks for their last two albums. The two live albums they DID release were well after they'd broken up...so I don't really count those, since they're mish-mash from different shows, not all from one concert or series of shows within 24-48 hours. But, if they had, they'd be up there!

Yeah, I like the Domino's' Fillmore set, too...but, I prefer a couple of track choices from the In Concert album better...for example, "Why Does Love Got To Be So Sad?"...the In Concert version is far superior to the version from the Fillmore set...can't recall off the top of my head, but it's from either the evening show on the same day, or the next night. I think "Let It Rain" & "Tell The Truth" are also from different shows between the two sets, but for the most part, the Fillmore set is just an expanded version of In Concert.

Those Cream Live I and II are horrible. It explains why the band broke up on a few levels. Towards the end the band was just on an ego trip, mainly Bruce vs. ham hands Ginger Baker. Ginger's ego is so off the charts even today, he can't get over that Keith Moon was a better drummer in his prime. Filming a documentary for the RAH 2005 concerts, he can help but to knock The Who because they weren't playing "refined" blues rock music. IMHO Ginger Baker, and Neil Peart are examples of overrated drummers of their time.

I should check out the original "In Concert" for the Dominoes.

dino

08-15-2009, 08:03 AM

Those Cream Live I and II are horrible. It explains why the band broke up on a few levels. Towards the end the band was just on an ego trip, mainly Bruce vs. ham hands Ginger Baker.
I should check out the original "In Concert" for the Dominoes.

I agree about the Cream live albums. Excess is the word. Clapton just goes on and on riffing tunelessly, Ginger takes a 10 minute solo...

As for Band of Gypsys, it's my personal live album favorite. He did live to hear the result - the album came out in April, and Hendrix died in September. The song choices, edits and mixes are Jimi's. It has weak spots (it was a contractual filler, quickly done), but "Machine Gun" is out of this world.

Wonder what songs Mac would have selected from the Boston Tea Party concerts?
IMHO, Spencer's parody stuff doesn't translate to record. But pick..all of Peter's songs and the best Danny stuff and it would have been a huge record.

snoot

08-16-2009, 05:28 PM

It's all fairly subjective in the end but there's no shortage of notable concerts captured live during the sixties and seventies (beyond what first meets the eye, or those thoroughly idiotic Rolling Stone rag lists). I rate the following both by impact of the time, plus how well I feel these hold their own over time (listed roughly by date):

Best Live albums of the late 60's-early 70's period IMO (as cited by consensus already):
- Cream - Live Cream Vol 1 + 2 (1968) ^
- The Who - Live At Leeds (1970) [Expanded set]
- Fleetwood Mac - Live At The Boston Tea Party (1970)
- Allman Brothers Band - Live At Fillmore East (1971)

Live albums from that same period that could easily be categorized with the above IMO:
- John Mayall - The Turning Point (1969)
- Elvis Presley - At The International Hotel (1969)
- Ten Years After - Live At The Fillmore East (1970)
- Creedence Clearwater Revival - The Concert (1970) **
- It's A Beautiful Day - Live At Carnegie Hall (1972)
- Deep Purple - Made In Japan (1972)
- Elvis Presley - At Madison Square Garden (1972)
- Ten Years After - Recorded Live (1973)
- Van Morrison - It's Too Late To Stop Now (1973)

Notable (= above average + above disappointing) live albums recorded during the 60's:
- Jerry Lee Lewis - Live At The Star Club (1964)
- The Yardbirds - Five Live Yardbirds (1964)
- Johnny Rivers - Live At The Whiskey A-Go-Go [series] (1964-65)
- The Ventures - On Stage (1965)

Notable (= above average + above disappointing) live albums from the mid-to-late 70's IMO:
- Alvin Lee - In Flight (1974)
- Robin Trower - Live! (1975)
- Peter Frampton - Frampton Comes Alive (1976)
- Jackson Browne - Running On Empty (1977)
- Cheap Trick - At Budokan (1979)

> Frampton, Browne and Cheap Trick don't rate among my fave bands, but those live albums clearly have their moments.

* Rolling Stones - Get Yer Ya-Ya's Out! (1970) :: overrated [saw the Stones a number of times during this period and this recording somehow misses the genuinely engaging interplay between Richards and Taylor]

* Jimi Hendrix - Band Of Gypsies (1970) :: beyond the nice guitar theatrics, it tails off on the whole rather quickly

* Derek & The Dominos - In Concert + Live At The Fillmore (1972) :: unfortunately misses one key element from the studio band who was no longer on the scene by the time the album made its appearance (but could have been when it was recorded - and would have helped greatly - if he hadn't been off making #4 from the top)

** CCR - Live In Europe (1971) :: recorded shortly after brother Tom Fogerty left the band, the 1998 Japanese import remastering of the trio brings new life to the original (which admittedly sounded a tad harsh at times)

^ I believe it was Cream who were the first to tap the sonic reach of mobile recording equipment behind wizards Tom Dowd and Bill Halverson

See you mothers later. Jb

slipkid

08-17-2009, 01:07 AM

Welcome back! You used to keep the Peter Green, and Pre-Rumours boards alive with your opinions. Without you it's been pretty dead every three weeks or so. I would replace the Cream Live I + II with Deep Purple's "Made in Japan". The rest of your list I would agree with.

bjornense

08-17-2009, 04:52 AM

>>>I agree about the Cream live albums. Excess is the word. Clapton just goes on and on riffing tunelessly, Ginger takes a 10 minute solo...

Yes the live albums, mainly recorded late 68 when the band were burned out, are a bit excessive, but the live parts of "Wheels of Fire", recorded March 68 are truly fantastic. Spoonful, one of the greatest moments of the art of improvisation performed by a rock band, and the fiery Clapton solo on Crossroads...

snoot

08-17-2009, 06:55 AM

Welcome back! You used to keep the Peter Green, and Pre-Rumours boards alive with your opinions.

You mean, I used to rile the barricaded green troops to a state of near agitation, often with teeth gnashing. lol Well as it were, I found my way out of my cave one fine day, stumbled for a bit before passing out, only to wake up and find myself here once again. Go figure. :D

You know the problem with citing things like "ace albums" is that there are always more than what first meets the eye. I mean, no **** sherlock. Case in point: I blissfully overlooked Gordon Lightfoot's Sunday Concert (1969), a classic acoustic affair from the great Canadian balladeer teamed with fingerpicker Red Shea -- complete with a winning cover of Dylan's "Just Like Tom Thumb's Blues". Then there was Focus Live At The Rainbow (1973) featuring Thijs van Leer and Jan Akkerman in top Dutchmeister form. Not too shabby there either.

Hell, I even enjoy The Carpenters' Live In Japan (1974) -and- Live At The Palladium (1976). Talk about a sap. :p But of course, you have to be either a Carpenters fan, or - at a minimum - imbued with a mellow enough musical mindset to accept a style like theirs on its own merits. For me it's easy, as they had great melodies and arrangements coupled with a top notch vocalist - one who can actually carry a note without the all too common overlay of flatness. Imagine that.

I'm sure if I put my mind to it, I could come up with even more winning concert releases from that memorable era. If nothing else, the ones cited above stand out first and foremost. BTW your point on Cream is appreciated but only partly ... however I do know where you're coming from. See below for more.

snoot

08-17-2009, 07:14 AM

Yes the live albums, mainly recorded late 68 when the band were burned out, are a bit excessive, but the live parts of "Wheels of Fire", recorded March 68 are truly fantastic...

You and Slipkid and others make a valid point re excess, only a few things should be remembered. First off, that sound was damn near mind blowing in its time. Beyond that, Clapton's free form jams may have been anything but "perfect" but still outshone most of the rockers of the era. He was clearly pushing new boundaries, rivaled only by Hendrix in that regard (with Beck and Green and Page et al pulling up the rear). Lastly, most audiences were either stoned or lit up on juice und spirits in one form or another. The improvs of the psychedelic era - and the sheer volume of the amplification - were intended to BLOW YOUR MIND as much as anything else. 'Nuff said.

Do those two live Cream volumes stand up well over time? Well definitely not to the point of psychedelic nirvana that's for sure, and I bet EC would be the first to agree. But pinned to the time, they were pretty wild and at the vanguard of pushing the ever expanding rock envelope (plus a clear prelude to heavy metal to boot, for better or worse). In any case, nothing tops the reach of Disraeli Gears, but that's studio material so no point heading there.

You also bring up a second interesting point, when referencing the live part of Wheels Of Fire [thanks for refreshing my sleepy cerebral coconut] as in my mind, all three sets have long blurred into one. And I agree, without tracks like Crossroads and Spoonful, you can't reach an apex of the group live just as you've alluded to. As I see it, if you really want a tight Cream set live, you would have to cherry-pick from all three sources. Too bad it wasn't done that way originally!

BTW if memory serves me right, Crossroads - in all its celebrated glory - took a bit of production sorcery by producer Felix Pappalardi to attain that tight framing. The original recording was considerably longer, then spliced to perfection for effect + impact. And damn if he and EC didn't pull that off adroitly. :thumbsup:

PS for slipkid. As for Ginger Baker, that guy had chops. Sure, a touch over the top at times but come on. Beating your meat with yer sticks was par for the course back then. Too bad he and Jack Bruce were always at each other's throats, that was the bigger problem. That reduced Clapton to the role of peacemaker as much as anything else in the group, something that clearly grated on him as time went on. It also guaranteed any longevity to the band was to be short lived.

chiliD

08-17-2009, 10:23 AM

BTW if memory serves me right, Crossroads - in all its celebrated glory - took a bit of production sorcery by producer Felix Pappalardi to attain that tight framing. The original recording was considerably longer, then spliced to perfection for effect + impact. And damn if he and EC didn't pull that off adroitly. :thumbsup:

No, that's a myth. "Crossroads" on Wheels Of Fire is exactly how it was performed...no edits. (per Tom Dowd...mentioned the DVD bio of him.)

And, don't forget the killer live tracks from their Goodbye album. "I'm So Glad", "Sittin' On Top Of The World" & "Politician", as tight as Cream EVER sounded live.

slipkid

08-17-2009, 11:23 AM

PS for slipkid. As for Ginger Baker, that guy had chops. Sure, a touch over the top at times but come on. Beating your meat with yer sticks was par for the course back then. Too bad he and Jack Bruce were always at each other's throats, that was the bigger problem. That reduced Clapton to the role of peacemaker as much as anything else in the group, something that clearly grated on him as time went on. It also guaranteed any longevity to the band was to be short lived.

I'll go on record, the live material from Wheels of Fire and Goodbye are top notch.

There's no doubt Ginger Baker had chops, I just don't like his style. He was a master at the double bass drum, however he never used his wrists the way Mitch Mitchell, Keith Moon, Ian Paice, or Clive Bunker did. It wasn't an effortless style of play. He thumped the drums.

dino

08-17-2009, 11:33 AM

Cream are mindblowingly boring compared to The Jimi Hendrix Experience or Green-era Mac. IMHO, Cream were best when they stuck to 4-5 minutes per song - witness the early live tapes. Hendrix and Green had the imagination to make a 10-minute solo worthwhile, something very rare. I can't think of another guitarists with that gift, but that's just me. And drum solos are always boring.

snoot

08-17-2009, 04:00 PM

No, that's a myth. "Crossroads" on Wheels Of Fire is exactly how it was performed...no edits. (per Tom Dowd...mentioned the DVD bio of him.)

Ah good to hear that confirmed. That story has swirled about for years. When I first heard it I was a little surprised I'll admit, since the track always seemed seamless. But given that so much of their concert material is extended, I figured anything might be possible. There is only one point where such an edit could have occurred IMO, and that's well into the song (can you guess where?). Glad you set me right - I like it that way better.

And, don't forget the killer live tracks from their Goodbye album. "I'm So Glad", "Sittin' On Top Of The World" & "Politician", as tight as Cream EVER sounded live.

Ya more of the same, as it dribbled in a la carte as only Cream could do it. I recall I had a self-compiled cassette of all of Cream's "best" material once upon a time, one side live and the other studio. That's how good they were considered live by most of us, whereas few bands back then could merit such space considerations (let alone release enough concert material). Probably hasn't been played in 20 to 25 years now -- same with all my original LPs of the band. That's also how most did it years ago as many here know or recall, when tape began to rule over clumsy discs. The one truly great upside was that ability to make custom compilations of one's own choosing.

Slice it or dice it any way you want, Cream set the world on fire live back then in concert, more than any other act of the day (circa 1966-68). They preceded Fleetwood Mac in the jam style, and licked Hendrix at his own game by being having a greater overall reach. There were axes every bit as good as EC at the time, some arguably better, but few brought as well rounded and varied a package to the table as the trio comprising Cream. How well their concert sound has withstood the test of time is for each to decide. But that was then, and this is now. And those were two clearly different times.

snoot

08-17-2009, 04:15 PM

There's no doubt Ginger Baker had chops, I just don't like his style. He was a master at the double bass drum, however he never used his wrists the way Mitch Mitchell, Keith Moon, Ian Paice, or Clive Bunker did. It wasn't an effortless style of play. He thumped the drums.

Yeah well he was in a power trio at the time, and in such configurations the drummer is expected to carry extra weight to add to the mix and fill things out a bit better. I always felt he pulled the task off well. I like your anointed ones though - not a weak one in the crop. But there are a lot of other talented stick men too, starting with Baker's ultimate replacement in the Slowhand sphere, Jim Gordon (albeit rotting in a Cali prison now for killing his mama).

Cream are mindblowingly boring compared to The Jimi Hendrix Experience or Green-era Mac. IMHO, Cream were best when they stuck to 4-5 minutes per song - witness the early live tapes. Hendrix and Green had the imagination to make a 10-minute solo worthwhile, something very rare. I can't think of another guitarists with that gift, but that's just me. And drum solos are always boring.

You're too guitar minded for your own good. But that's cool, to each his own. There's more to a band and its ultimate place in the sun than just the point man. Clapton easily fits in with the company of Hendrix and Beck, and certain other axemeisters who took to the stage immediately upon their heels. They were/are all superb rockers, but each possessed varying degrees of strengths and weaknesses. No man possessed it all. But when it came to 1963-1967, NO ONE topped EC in leading the charge - and if there was a single exception, it would have to be Jimi on technical, cutting edge ability alone. Thus the name Clapton got. As for 1968 and beyond, that's a whole different story with the emergence of Green, Allman, Lee and so many others (just to cite those three is cherry picking in a way). I'm also going by the time they had a truly effective splash on the public at large, and in the jam or improv style.

Now I'll give you that drum solos are generally boring, but they're even more boring when caught on tape. In concert they're mostly a diversion and break for the rest of the band, plus a chance for the guy on the sticks to show off his chops and add a little percussive punch to the proceedings. It was obligatory back in the day, especially in the psychedelic arena. I'll go one step further - for every ten 10-minute guitar solos, nine probably could have been reduced for better effect and punch. Again, especially if they're going to be transferred later into permanency, that is, to tape or disc. But live and direct, most tend to be a blast and crowd pleasers. A few even shine on extended merit alone. But even in this precious space, Duane and Dickey (like nearly every other) could overdo it at times - dare I say Live At The Fillmore has a number of meandering moments in the mix ... check.

doodyhead

08-17-2009, 04:53 PM

The land of comparisons await us all

having heard in person several of the aformentioned live concerts from which these comparisons are derived. I can only say that they were far better in person than they were on record.

best drum solo captured live "came from the santana drummer during soul sacrifice in woodstock" It was like being in "drumline"

great live albums
The best of all.....BB King "Blues Is KIng"/Don'tanswer the door

Allman Brothers Live at the Filmore I was there
Quick Siver Messinger Service "Happy Trails" although it too was like Cream in that it was mix and match i was at the fillmore east side
Ten years after "Undead" Live at Klooks Kleek
Band Of Gypsies I was there. The best show I ever saw
Boston Tea Party the new Disc one
LIve Dead
Mayall the turning point i was there too
The best Dead Concert was on Bootleg 2/1/70 with peter green..as the announcer said The best ****ing music in the world"
which is better its all taste

doodyhead

doodyhead

08-17-2009, 05:26 PM

slipkid

08-17-2009, 07:57 PM

Yeah well he was in a power trio at the time, and in such configurations the drummer is expected to carry extra weight to add to the mix and fill things out a bit better. I always felt he pulled the task off well. I like your anointed ones though - not a weak one in the crop. But there are a lot of other talented stick men too, starting with Baker's ultimate replacement in the Slowhand sphere, Jim Gordon (albeit rotting in a Cali prison now for killing his mama).

Yeah, Jim Gordon was good as well. I know Baker had to pull extra weight for being in a power trio, but so did Moon (three musicians), and Mitchell. That's especially true for Keith Moon, and John Entwistle, who had to fill in where Pete Townshend did not.

But even in this precious space, Duane and Dickey (like nearly every other) could overdo it at times - dare I say Live At The Fillmore has a number of meandering moments in the mix ... check.

:lol: You're going to get a response from chiliD for that one! (I stated this in earlier posts on this thread)

snoot

08-17-2009, 08:29 PM

The land of comparisons await us all

having heard in person several of the aformentioned live concerts from which these comparisons are derived. I can only say that they were far better in person than they were on record.

Doody knowz, as he was immersed in those heady days. You know, the only place that could top the west coast circuit [LA + SF ] back then was NYC, your playpen. So for that reason all I can say is YOU LUCKY DOG. To have attended the ABB Fillmore series back when Duane was being captured for posterity gives you distinct bragging rights. And to find out you witnessed the "three John" Turning Point recording with Mark-Almond in the first person brings a tear to my eyes. A happy tear all the same. :laugh: wow

Overlooked Happy Trails from '69 indeed ... you know you date back when Duncan & Cipollina are on your radar. Have one over on you though, saw QMS coupled with the Mac at the Swing with Valente at the helm. Who knew it would turn out to be a freak - but historical - event thanks to one disappearing dude named Spencer. Only wish I could recall more details of it all instead of just drabs of bits and pieces. Everything becomes such a blur and haze over time, more so when you're tagged a bit. Same thing with so many other concerts all those years ago.

Saw TYA more times than I can count (Alvin Lee was always a great live act), the Stones with Taylor (but never with Jones - and even once with a little known Texas band as the opening act called ZZ Top doing their latest ditty "La Grange"), the Moody Blues when Pinder was working that magical mellotron of his and Hayward was soaring (but never when the Denny Laine fronted 'em, much to my regret), Chuck Berry + Bo Diddley on their big reunion tour (circa '70 or whenever it was), IABD a handful of times both with Hal Wagenet and later Bill Gregory on lead guitar (Gregory doubling up with Tom Fowler of Zappa-fame on the bass), Lightfoot with Red Shea + Terry Clements, Steve Miller when Boz Scaggs was still aboard, Bob Welch both solo and in FM, Bread with Gates and Griffen, Camel with Bardens + Latimer, Canned Heat when the Bear and Blind Owl hooted (+Vestine on lead axe), Cat Stevens before the ME transformation, the Beckmeister, Mandel, Tull in their prime, The Rascals, Dave Mason with the late Jimmy Krueger, EC and FM too many times to count ... on and on wanks da little monkey.

Ah those were the days my friend (remember that old serenade our folks used to play, and now we're living? :eek:). The best part was it was all relatively CHEAP in the crazy hazy days of yesteryear. Sometimes as little as 3 or 5 bucks! Could I be dreaming? :cool: Fat chance.

snoot

08-17-2009, 08:44 PM

:lol: You're going to get a response from chiliD for that one! (I stated this in earlier posts on this thread)

Ha. Well all I can say is you've got one up on chiliD then. :D

By the way, Thanks for the article...very cool
Let me echo Vinnie in a shout out to the OP. Nice share there Daniel -- plus an additional one to Sharky for nipping at your heels to see it through. :thumbsup:

dansven

08-18-2009, 10:45 AM

Let me echo Vinnie in a shout out to the OP. Nice share there Daniel -- plus an additional one to Sharky for nipping at your heels to see it through. :thumbsup:

You're welcome folks! :)
It's fascinating to see this thread turn into a discussion about classic live albums.
Cool!:cool:

snoot

08-20-2009, 01:53 AM

slipkid: From the live recordings that exist after "Munich", Peter Green was playing his very best.

Pete was hit n miss by this point mate. When he was on, he was on. However he was flying way too high way too often, and often scaring the **** out of the rest of the band. Eventually it came to a head.

slipkid: Another reason to stick it out for another six months: Kiln House (with Peter Green).

I have my sincere doubts about this eventuality, more so if you're alluding to Kiln House by name (and thus implicit binding). Little chance there would have been any such thing with PG in the lineup, at least as I see it. That was a Spencer-Kirwan initiative all the way. I doubt that kind of retro revisitation would never have gone over well with guns a-blazin' Green. Beyond that, it was but a slice of a larger pie back then --50's retro was all the rage circa 1970. To cite but one example, it was around that time that R&R pioneers like Chuck Berry and Bo Diddley were resurfacing and once again making something of a splash. Sha Na Na (Who who who?) did their unheard-of thing at Woodstock just before Hendrix took the stage and further lit the nostalgia spark.

Kiln House was simply one of the better projects cut of that cloth at that time (and my personal favorite). Danny worked well with Jeremy on his solo effort that had only recently been brought under wraps, and the two seemed to just keep truckin' all the way to that country estate known as Kiln House - that is, once Pete quit the game.

dansven: Yes, I am not that familiar with the Allman brothers album, but imo Mac's Tea Party beats both the Who and Stones.

Well you better get to it, as you ain't getting any younger (just like the rest of us). If you haven't experienced ABB by this point, you're in for a treat. I'd suggest Decade Of Hits for a quick teaser if nothing else. Live At The Fillmore is another classic of course -- but then, aren't all those early ABB albums up to Brothers And Sisters? One of the truly GREAT live acts, then and now, and a lot of that has to do with Gregg at the helm. They remind me of the lesser know Three Man Army of the Gurvitz Bros in that they were a great live outfit, and as the TMA name suggests, it emanates from a distinct three point attack - in the case of ABB, Gregg, Duane and Dickey in equal parts.

Note to slipkid: Check out TMA's history if you haven't yet. They're associated, directly or indirectly, with everyone from Graeme Edge of the Moody Blues to Buddy Miles, Carmine Appice and Tony Newman. Ultimately Adrain and Paul would team up with - you guessed it - Ginger Baker. It was at that point that Three Man Army became the Baker Gurvitz Army.

dansven: I have a live bootleg with the Kiln House line-up (can't remember the date), and Danny actually did "Like It This Way" alone. And although he did a fine job, it's still quite sad. Because the absence of Peter is so evident on that song, where there should have been two duelling guitars.

Well put. :cool:

sharky: I've only heard it from that one date, so maybe they quickly figured out that it didn't work without both Danny and Peter. Considering how crucial their guitar interplay was to that song, I'm surprised Danny even attempted it without Peter.

I'd bet it could be covered under one word: transition. They were caught in a "out with the old, in with the new" flux. Only how do you break new ground all the while letting go of that precious green tether that had always been the chief driving force behind all that constituted the Mac? Lots of strange experiments were played out during this interim period; you're only looking at a tiny slice of it all in citing such things.

chiliD: Everything else pales in comparison to the Allman Bros Live At The Fillmore East. Long been touted as the best live album ever released, bar none.

Bar none? That's a pretty tall order if you ask me. Why don't we just settle on :: its a GREAT live performance, and apropos of one of the best live rock acts ever in ABB, the world's first and foremost Southern Guitar Army.

chiliD: Live At Leeds, as originally released with only 5 tracks, is pathetic...it wasn't until they reissued the expanded version on CD that it's true "worth" finally appears, too little, too late.

I always thought the original was a nice teaser but a tad short. And it's true - the expanded set is just so much nicer. :thumbsup:

chiliD: Ten Years After's Recorded Live is definitely in the Top 5 of all-time live albums.

Nice call. "Yeehaw" to paraphrase the guy on the point (only he was Brit and not Texas tea as cited) ;)

snoot

08-20-2009, 02:16 AM

chiliD: I'm one of those who think that HAD Peter found a way to stay and Fleetwood Mac released a double live album from those Boston shows in '70, they would've, dare I say, "ruled the world"...we'd be asking "Led Zeppelin, who?"

"Found a way to stay..."? You mean stay = in the game? In the driver's seat? In the band? Fat chance. Peter's cup had filleth and overflown already. In your dreams, sure -- if only "if's" didn't count of course. But then you invariably wake up and realize wishful thinking is just that and little more. It's sad but true that all of life's regrets spin around "ifs'. Besides, it's those bumps and turns that make up the signature continuum of Fleetwood Mac, which only adds to the band's mystique and ongoing appeal. And in some ways, freshness.

slipkid: This is sacrilege I know, but Derek Trucks, and Warren Haynes are doing the '69-'71 Allmans today in the 2.0 version, and I love it! In fact I saw the Allmans in '89, and many say that Haynes doing Duane Allman, with a sober Dickey Betts maybe one of the best line-ups ever.

I'll second that in so far as Haynes (like Derek) has done a helluva job coming aboard to fill rather large boots in the latter day ABB. And we all know a clean Dickey is a better Dickey indeed. [Why oh why did he choose to file that bloody lawsuit and f*ck things up for good?]

slipkid: What scared Peter Green was that the entire summer of 1970 was supposed to be another four month U.S. tour, and he didn't want to do it. If he had the stamina to pull it off, I could almost guarantee, that we would've never had that self titled album with the witch from CA, and that other album called Rumours. They were THAT close to greatness.

Another "if only" pipe dream. Read His Cup Filleth And Ran Over from above.

BTW FM '75 and Rumours -IS- greatness. You don't seriously doubt that, do you? Beyond that, well .... that's another story ... and then some.

slipkid: Yeah, Jim Gordon was good as well. I know Baker had to pull extra weight for being in a power trio, but so did Moon (three musicians), and Mitchell. That's especially true for Keith Moon, and John Entwistle, who had to fill in where Pete Townshend did not.

Gordon was a drummer's drummer, with a deft touch that left many of his contemporaries in awe. That includes many of the great session men of the day, to include notables like Hal Blaine. Aces for Keith Moon too, with his more driving style. But another widely admired to this day.

dino: IMHO, Spencer's parody stuff doesn't translate to record. But pick..all of Peter's songs and the best Danny stuff and it would have been a huge record.

You're right about Jeremy and those frequent translation misses, but when he shifts just a tad closer to the genuine thing - a la Blood On The Floor or This Is The Rock - you quickly emerge upon fresher ground. KH is full of hints of promising JS paths, beyond its overtly nostalgic framing.

dansven

08-20-2009, 02:14 PM

slipkid: From the live recordings that exist after "Munich", Peter Green was playing his very best.

Pete was hit n miss by this point mate. When he was on, he was on. However he was flying way too high way too often, and often scaring the **** out of the rest of the band. Eventually it came to a head.

I strongly disagree with the description of Peter after the "Munich" incident, Snoot. All the live bootlegs from his last days with Mac are fantastic, and shows an incredibly gifted and innovative musician. This is also heard on "The End Of The Game". If anything was hit and miss, I'd say the bootlegs of the Kiln House line-up. However great, they weren't always that tight. And they needed to work on their vocals as a trio (especially Chris, ahem...). But still, they were great! But you know my opinion, Snoot? And let's not get into all that now... :D

Anyway, what I think is interesting is the so called "Munich incident"... I don't really think it ever was one!!! Oh, I know what's been said and told by Peter, Mick, Jeremy, Dinky, and especially John McVie. Of course I believe they visited the Germans, and I've seen the girl ... and she was GORGEOUS!!! ;) And yeah, they probably took drugs, but that's no sensation.
What I don't believe is that the Germans were after Peter, that they brainwashed him, that they spiked him with superstrong acid. And that this particular incident left Peter "changed" or "destroyed", and led to him deciding to leave the band and all the mental issues later.

I don't think him leaving had any direct connection with taking drugs or any illness.
Snoot says that Peter was "often scaring the **** out of the rest of the band". Yes, that may be quite true. His guitar style changed/expanded radically the last months. And so did his taste in musical genres.

Then it was the thing about money ... having too much, while Africa was starving. The feeling of being different from the average man and woman. Wishing to share the money, but not having the rest of the band with him. The need to start over again, without the false showbiz crap.

So, I believe the two main things that led to Peter leaving Fleetwood Mac was:
1. Feeling limited and wanting to move on musically!
2. Guilt!

The "Munich incident" is a myth, and people love myths. It's a way to explain what isn't understood. And it's a way for John McVie and many others to explain the sad truth that Peter left the band and became ill.

So folks, what are your opinions and feelings about "Munich"?

dansven: Yes, I am not that familiar with the Allman brothers album, but imo Mac's Tea Party beats both the Who and Stones.

Well you better get to it, as you ain't getting any younger (just like the rest of us). If you haven't experienced ABB by this point, you're in for a treat. I'd suggest Decade Of Hits for a quick teaser if nothing else. Live At The Fillmore is another classic of course -- but then, aren't all those early ABB albums up to Brothers And Sisters? One of the truly GREAT live acts, then and now, and a lot of that has to do with Gregg at the helm. They remind me of the lesser know Three Man Army of the Gurvitz Bros in that they were a great live outfit, and as the TMA name suggests, it emanates from a distinct three point attack - in the case of ABB, Gregg, Duane and Dickey in equal parts.

I will, I will! :) I'll let you know soon!

snoot

08-20-2009, 03:36 PM

This is reminiscent of what I just posted in the Rumours section [yes I actually wormed my way in there for some misguided reason] under the post Genre of Rock? -- in that one shoe (answer) does not fit all (everything).

dansven: I strongly disagree with the description of Peter after the "Munich" incident, Snoot.

I'm not referring specifically to the Munich affair Daniel, as I have never believed that alone accounts for Green's wigging out, and eventual quitting of the game. Could it have contributed to it? Sure, but to what extent I'm not sure any of us will ever know definitively. Only I'll lay down my last dollar in stating it wasn't the entire reason - just as you believe. If you go back and read earlier posts of mine, you will see I've stated the same thing all along.

dansven: All the live bootlegs from his last days with Mac are fantastic, and shows an incredibly gifted and innovative musician. This is also heard on "The End Of The Game". If anything was hit and miss, I'd say the bootlegs of the Kiln House line-up.

Part of this contention and even confusion stems from misinterpretations - or lack of specifics - in the descriptions we all use. When I say hit n miss, I'm above all else referring to his mental state, more than his playing state. Now as in the past.

As for the young Germans being after Peter with intentions to brainwash etc, that's pure bunk. Only an imbecile would believe that that house visit alone spun Peter 180 degrees. You only have to follow the trail up to that point to glimpse the fuller picture. To what extent Munich pushed the whole thing over the top is anyone's guess - but IMO what happened to PG was inevitable with or without Munich, as it was a long time coming. Like I said earlier, his cup filleth and ran over. Excessive drug use can do that. And sometimes that's all it takes and the damage is done for good.

dansven: I don't think him leaving had any direct connection with taking drugs or any illness.

I think these factors did play into his quitting the band, and the scene in general. Again to what extent versus even further factors - to include pressure, fatigue, burnout, guilt, altruism, mental decline - is anyone's guess. But they are part of the equation. This all makes for engaging conversation if nothing else, in that we all love mazes.

dansven: Feeling limited and wanting to move on musically!

Not so sure, unless he was more messed up in his head than is already generally accepted. He and Danny in particular were blazing new and fertile ground, they were moving further away from their original blues rock core, and already had an additional project in the works. Not sure why he would have felt compelled to align with strangers for backing when he had aces in the hand. To me it smacks of him further losing his bearings - and/or his mind.

dansven: The "Munich incident" is a myth, and people love myths.

I wouldn't go so far as to call it a myth outright, but I too feel it is overblown and exaggerated to cover for the excesses that predate it. How much it really made a difference in the end is not easy to determine, due to conflicting reports and assessments from those nearer the scene (and who may have had vested interests for seeing it one way or another). But there's always more to practically every story than what first meets the eye, especially a rather simplistic "easy out' one like the Munich incident.

dansven: If anything was hit and miss, I'd say the bootlegs of the Kiln House line-up. However great, they weren't always that tight. And they needed to work on their vocals as a trio (especially Chris, ahem...). But still, they were great!

Well this may surprise you my friend, but I agree. But we also have to keep in mind the band was in a state of flux, and attempting to find a new, lesser green identity (in as much as that was possible). When any outfit loses its founder and guiding hand in the way they did Peter, it is jarring to say the least. There was a time back then many doubted the Mac could carry on, including the surviving members of the band. It was all touch and go there for a while; that should come as no surprise.

snoot

08-20-2009, 03:46 PM

I will, I will! :) I'll let you know soon!

Try ABB's Decade Of Hits -- that one compilation alone will tell you whether you are a newfound believer. It is an ideal starting point. And yes, report back after doing so. Inquiring minds would love to know your take. ;)

dansven

08-20-2009, 04:20 PM

I'm not referring specifically to the Munich affair Daniel, as I have never believed that alone accounts for Green's wigging out, and eventual quitting of the game.
Ok, sorry I got it wrong there.

Part of this contention and even confusion stems from misinterpretations - or lack of specifics - in the descriptions we all use. When I say hit n miss, I'm above all else referring to his mental state, more than his playing state. Now as in the past.

... and I got you wrong again. :)

...but IMO what happened to PG was inevitable with or without Munich, as it was a long time coming.
Yes, I totally agree! :nod:

dansven: Feeling limited and wanting to move on musically!

Not so sure, unless he was more messed up in his head than is already generally accepted. He and Danny in particular were blazing new and fertile ground, they were moving further away from their original blues rock core, and already had an additional project in the works.
I wasn't thinking of Danny here. As you say, Danny was really creative and expanding at that time (however, in a different direction than Peter). And the two had plans for the instrumental album. Peter once said that Danny was the only other creative member of the group at that time. I was rather thinking about the other members.. who I think didn't have the will or ability to follow Peter.
So Peter set Danny's songs and output highly.
If there ever was an issue with Peter and Danny, I'd say that perhaps their personalities didn't match all that well at the end.

Thanks for the great comments, Snoot! :)
I would love to go on, but must go to bed now.

snoot

08-20-2009, 05:31 PM

Well first off a good number of Greenies on the forum are based in Europe and have the handicap of interacting in a second, non-native language. It amazes me you fellas do as well as you do. In that regard you kick our Yankee butts. And believe me, that's a well deserved compliment.

Beyond that, it's so easy to slip (to paraphrase one Lowell George) when it comes to miscommunications, and this having little to do with second languages exclusively. Ever hear that great song Words by Jim Krueger when he was with the Dave Mason Band? Says so much in that regard.

D: Peter once said that Danny was the only other creative member of the group at that time. I was rather thinking about the other members.. who I think didn't have the will or ability to follow Peter.

I think Jeremy was mostly confused with where things were ultimately going, and where he stood in the band after Danny arrived, you know, the whole three guitar front thing. He also doubted his own star power once Peter had left the scene. It's understandable really, as they had long been flying confidently under a Green flag up until those seismic shifts toward the end. Jeremy was also looking for things that he clearly wasn't finding in the rock world to which he was attached. That too was long in coming. But that withstanding, to look beyond the FM personnel - the aces in hand of Kirwan and Spencer, of McVie and Fleetwood - is telling indeed. That's tough company to top as I see it. So I'm not sure just what it was Green was seeking - and I'm not sure if Pete himself knew what it was either. All I know is that EVERYONES' heads in the group were pretty much in a full spin by the end of the PGFM era. So I've never been surprised by the subsequent fallout.

As for everything else you stated above, I pretty much would nod in agreement. I think your assessments align in large part with my own. The shame in the end is that there was never a TPO II, and that Danny - like his sometimes mentor + sometimes competitor in Green - found his way out of the game prematurely. It is a tragedy of the first order for us who appreciated all that encompassed PGFM. The only mixed feelings I have beyond that remain bittersweet to this day, in that without the burnout of Peter we wouldn't have had the Spencer and Kirwan led affairs (which I thoroughly dig), and if it weren't sadly for their subsequent burnout we might not have had those great Welch led projects, with Christine blossoming and coming more to the fore (and those great licks by Bob Weston). And of course if we didn't have the eventual - but by this point somewhat predictable - burnout of Welch, we wouldn't have had a taste of Buckingham-Nicks, a west coast sound that was equally fresh and compelling in its own sunny way, especially early on (before the comedic-tragic and MOR elements took greater sway). {YMMV of course}

slipkid

08-20-2009, 09:17 PM

Here's my take on Peter Green, and "Munich". After reading Green's bio, and watching the MotW documentary, you have several sources of information about that night. Not one of them enjoyed themselves, except Peter. That leads me to believe, that "Munich" wasn't the moment Peter lost it, it was the moment the rest of the band realized Peter had changed.

Go back to the "Man of the World" single in 1969. "Well just I wish I had never been born." Peter swears up and down this was not to be taken literally, but who else writes a lyric that dark unless something is behind it? This song was written around 'Albatross', and the heady days of Chess studios, and Otis Spann's solo album. Peter was still intense, in your face Peter Green. Advance eleven months later, "The Green Manalishi" was penned. If they were playing it live on their U.S. tour in Jan. 1970, this had to have been written in late '69. That has to be one of the eeriest songs ever produced (Judas Priest removed the character from the song).

Then there's that TV interview from Detroit 12/69. Peter comes off either high, or painfully shy. This was the same guy who used to verbally abuse Mike Vernon in the studio, and verbally abuse his band mates onstage. On the Early Years video, there's some home movie footage during the Manalishi segment with Kirwan, McVie, and Green in a car. Green makes this face for the camera, then it pans to McVie who rolls his eyes in disgust. I always wondered about that, probably nothing.

Anyway, I see Green's decline as gradual, with Munich the final nail as a career change for Green, not a complete physical, and mental breakdown which came a few years later. I think the drugs forced Peter to retire from music altogether a year or so later. I think had he not done drugs Peter would've continued to guest spot on blues albums. I also think he would've accepted John Mayall's invitation back into the Bluesbreakers in 1971.

The what-ifs are fun to speculate, that's what these forums are for. I think if Peter Green didn't feel stifled by FM, stayed away from drugs, was able to iron out personality clashes with Danny Kirwan (he would've been the first, since new, and established members hated him by August 1972), and eventually allowed Christine McVie into the band, FM would've been very very interesting. Not taking away anything from the "pop" incarnation, but FM should've been, and remained a rock band.

Here's a picture of the "mysterious woman" who "hi-jacked" Peter Green in Munich. Her name is Uschi Obermaier.

snoot

08-21-2009, 04:56 PM

slipkid: I also think he would've accepted John Mayall's invitation back into the Bluesbreakers in 1971.

Never really gave this possibility much thought. Are you referring to Mayall's Back To The Roots project? That was towards the end of 1970 IIRC. Past that, Harvey Mandel, Jerry McGee and Freddy Robinson were doing most of the guitar licks for the Bluesbreakers in the early 70's. Are you saying Green was given a specific offer by Mayall? Wonder if he would have had dubs over McGee in the short lived trio Mayall formed right after the Roots release (of Mayall-McGee-Taylor).

slipkid: The what-ifs are fun to speculate, that's what these forums are for.

Well I'll give you that. After all, cyber sounding boards are erected to give those with similar interests a platform to share their thoughts, to include conjecture and wishful thinking to their heart's content. Only around these parts, seems 'mum's the word' is ascendent more than anything else. :shrug: 'cept for the Rhiannon board *arg*

slipkid: I think if Peter Green didn't feel stifled by FM, stayed away from drugs, was able to iron out personality clashes with Danny Kirwan (he would've been the first, since new, and established members hated him by August 1972), and eventually allowed Christine McVie into the band, FM would've been very very interesting.

The "stifled" part had as much to do with the other members wondering just where PG ultimately wanted to lead them off to, as they weren't exactly in agreement with his sky-high jam visions, and other like initiatives off the beaten track. Free form to the max would have spelled the death of Fleetwood Mac, don't kid yourself. Just as it did for psychedelia at large once that wave started to roll down the abstract-to-the-max path of excess. One listen to The End of the Game proves any trepidation on the part of the others was well founded. Outside of a few inspired -but fleeting - jam-o-rama moments (too much Hendrix and not enough Kirwan blending for my tastes), Green's newfangled thrust had little to offer or sustain the rest of the Mac membership, let alone their hard-earned fan base. Add to it the altruistic push Green was insisting on and you had a nicely framed recipe for disaster, whether viewed short or long term. In any case, I'm glad Peter got that out of his system, but I'd take Then Play On -- or Kiln House and beyond -- in its place any day.

Also not sure if Danny would have lost it like he did if Peter hadn't first. Chew on that speculation for a bit. :laugh:

slipkid: Not taking away anything from the "pop" incarnation, but FM should've been, and remained a rock band.

Says the old guard, comprised of dedicated rockers, greasers and blues beatniks. I would agree though. Looking back retrospectively it's an easy choice, especially after all those MOR releases. But circa 1975, I thought the group's new west coast sound was kinda refreshing, even if I couldn't believe Welch hung up his Mac guns for good. Apparently a lot of others thought so also, to include a healthy percentage from the post PGFM ranks.

You know it's like Ian Anderson lamented all those years ago: Friggen greasers are too old to rock 'n' roll but too young to die! Ain't it the truth.

PS. I would have uschied with Uschi -- gladly. :p

slipkid

08-21-2009, 05:15 PM

Just wanted to clarify the Mayall bit. John Mayall was seeking out Peter's services around the time he was a gravedigger. I think that was late '71?

I don't think there would've been an "End of the Game" without drugs. Actually one has to ask what songs Peter wrote were drug inspired (Manalishi of course) or weren't.

In today's world, Peter's lack of self for charity would be seen as an admirable trait. Forty years ago, you were crazy.

I always thought Kirwan snapped because he was the de-facto leader, and couldn't take it. By Bare Trees, you really felt Kirwan was taking the lead in songwriting in terms of output. As long as Green was in the band he didn't have that pressure of being a leader. Of course this thread speculated the rumor that Kirwan was thinking of leaving before Green, so who knows.

I think that's all, for now.

snoot

08-21-2009, 06:20 PM

slipkid: Just wanted to clarify the Mayall bit. John Mayall was seeking out Peter's services around the time he was a gravedigger. I think that was late '71?

Would have been around that time. If it's indeed true, could have been in preference to McGee or Robinson. 'Verrrry interesting' as Arte Johnson used to say.

slipkid: I don't think there would've been an "End of the Game" without drugs. Actually one has to ask what songs Peter wrote were drug inspired (Manalishi of course) or weren't.

Ha! There wouldn't have been TPO without drugs either me thinkz. As I see it, End Of The Game stems more from excessive drug use than probably anything else. That, or the played out visions of a ramblin' recluse. Take your choice. Yet take the same material, condense it and sift it through the right band members to hone it more tightly, and you might have a basis to work with. At least in part.

slipkid: In today's world, Peter's lack of self for charity would be seen as an admirable trait. Forty years ago, you were crazy.

Well charity as such was not unheard of back then; after all it was the free love, hippie in beads, "cultural revolution" era (blah blah blah for broken dreams). But it wasn't the altruistic impulse that was alarming, it was the go-for-broke framing he was looking to put it in to the others in the band. It was all or nothing in Pete's mind. And here they were, just beginning to taste the monetary fruits of their labors. If he had his way, they would have chucked all their moolah and carried on as near penniless paupers. They might have well donned robes and joined the hippies in their tree palaces on the isle of Kauai. LOL

Mick was clearly looking at the bigger picture when he told Pete he was crazy to want to take things to such lengths. Fortunately he convinced John of the same when JM started to ponder the notion - seriously.

slipkid: I always thought Kirwan snapped because he was the de-facto leader, and couldn't take it. By Bare Trees, you really felt Kirwan was taking the lead in songwriting in terms of output.

What do you mean, he was taking the lead - or co-lead - from TPO on. By Future Games, he was carrying the band on his shoulders for the most part.

slipkid: As long as Green was in the band he didn't have that pressure of being a leader. Of course this thread speculated the rumor that Kirwan was thinking of leaving before Green, so who knows.

I think DK would have been happiest as second banana, albeit one that had a distinct hand and say in the final delivery. Whether he was destined all along to flame out like PG is hard to say (born under a bad sign type of thing), but something tells me he would have survived the game longer if Peter and then Jeremy didn't bow out in the rather abrupt ways they did. Beyond that, it probably didn't help that he only got along marginally with Bob Welch (no fault of Bob's I think it's fair to say), even if the two played beautifully together. I always saw him in the role of Dickey Betts to Duane and Gregg, if you get my drift.

In the end, I think it's fair to say that the pressure got to him for sure. Same with Pete in many ways, no doubt true of Jeremy in other ways. It was rough enough being a full time rocker back then without having to be the point man to boot, and in Danny's case, an innately shy and reserved one into the bargain (did I mention ridiculously sensitive also?). And it goes without saying, not everyone is meant to take front and center. That damn near takes a coat of armor - and an almost limitless well from which to tap from.

slipkid

08-21-2009, 09:43 PM

I found it in the Christopher Hjort book. John Mayall indeed wanted Peter to tour the UK with the Bluesbreakers in September of '71. By that time Peter was digging graves.

Then Play On without the drugs...hmm. I guess songs like 'Underway' wouldn't have happened. Again that album was pretty much written by the spring of '69. It was recorded in July. If drugs were a factor (probably) it was as if Peter was on his third or fourth drink (nice buzz, feeling good), he hadn't reached his 15th or 16th (1970).

Kirwan:

According to what I've read as long as Peter was in the band he was still calling the shots, until early May of '70 when he was just going through the motions. Of course he asked Kirwan for help songwise and he would respond. The TPO sessions were a great example of this. If John, Mick, Danny, and Jeremy were in the studio, and Peter wasn't there, nothing was done. The rest of the band didn't take any initiative on themselves to work on the music. From Peter's perspective I can see how that could be a burden to have four musicians act like "speak to me great leader, we can't work without you".

Once Peter left, I think Danny, and Jeremy became the front men, and Mick Fleetwood became the "den mother". Obviously Jeremy couldn't take that and left within a year, leaving Danny. Future Games seems like a shared partnership with Welch, and Kirwan, with C. McVie's first song. The number of Kirwan tracks dominate Bare Trees, though Welch comes away with the most accessible song (Sent. Lady).

Charity:

Peter claims later that he didn't want to give all his money away, just keep enough to sustain yourself. I think this is where he had true inner conflict though. He had a thing for sportscars, and could afford the famous Shelby AC Cobra, but he settled on a 700 pound old Jaguar. I think that's when he was mentally losing his grasp. It's the balance between famous musician/star, and regular person with a close knit family.

snoot

08-22-2009, 02:18 AM

The TPO sessions were a great example of this. If John, Mick, Danny, and Jeremy were in the studio, and Peter wasn't there, nothing was done. The rest of the band didn't take any initiative on themselves to work on the music. From Peter's perspective I can see how that could be a burden to have four musicians act like "speak to me great leader, we can't work without you".

"Oh Divine One, speak to us undeserving minnows as we search for our daily bread. We sit here like mindless lemmings in a never ending state of paralysis, all the while eating up precious and expensive studio time waiting for a sign, any sign, and above all your presence, on what chords to strike and what notes to play. Please Green God, show us a sign, cast your divine glow upon us, and inspire us with good deeds and musical manna. And speak to us great leader, for we can't work without you. Alas we know not what to do."

~ Mick Fleetwood, speaking for the other 3 schmucks that constituted Fleetwood Mac, summer of 1969

From the official TPO De Lane Lea Studios logbook -- just looked it up to verify, it's in there, it's good. :thumbsup:

Dang slipkid, yer right!

aida

08-30-2009, 04:19 PM

Thank you very much snoot for the Mick Fleetwood's quote. It's so sad to read how much desperate they were fo Peter, how much they needed him. I agree with you all when you say it would have been a different story -I don't know for Jeremy,- but definetely for Danny if Peter hadn't lost his way.

I wanted to say, concerning the so called "Munich incident" that I also agree with you all that may be has been so much distorted and blamed for everything that happened to Peter, and that this may have not been true. Also I have to say that I am one of those "European Ledgies" for whom English is not the mother tongue. So I apologise in advance because trying to express my thoughts about such a controversial thing is really difficult to me. I hope not to be misunderstood.

Being a Pink Floyd fan also I have read hundreds, thousands of speculations about how Syd Barrett lost his way, I think may be more than that of Peter's, and one thing that always freaked me out was this: Richard Wright, PF sadly deceased keyboardist, always claimed Syd just "changed" after a three day LSD trip, similarly to that "Munich". This is something that have always made me think, as the other members of the band and all the speculation never gave importance to that incident in particular. Just imagine how many times may have been the PF members asked about how Syd went sadly craz, and everyone always said more or less the same. How a sensitive guy he was and so on.

Only Richard Wright always said he was sure than "that" was the specific moment when Syd "changed", (you can check out how sure he looks when talking about this thing on the "PF and Syd Barrett Story" DVD). May be guilt and musical restraints are things that were there from the start and this feelings only are enough to explode the whole thing out. But may be there's something about these long way trips that we don't pretty much understand. So maybe behind all the lies that have been said about "munich", may be there is some kind of truth, I don't know.

Wouter Vuijk

08-30-2009, 05:19 PM

Also I have to say that I am one of those "European Ledgies" for whom English is not the mother tongue. So I apologise in advance because trying to express my thoughts about such a controversial thing is really difficult to me. I hope not to be misunderstood.

Don't worry, I bet your English is better than our American and British Ledge friends can correspond in your native language (whichever that is). It's just that
English is by far the most common language of modern day music lovers. So we all accept each others grammatical mistakes (do we???:shrug:).
BTW Nice piece of thoughts concerning drug influence on sensitive musicians.

slipkid

08-30-2009, 10:40 PM

Being a Pink Floyd fan also I have read hundreds, thousands of speculations about how Syd Barrett lost his way, I think may be more than that of Peter's, and one thing that always freaked me out was this: Richard Wright, PF sadly deceased keyboardist, always claimed Syd just "changed" after a three day LSD trip, similarly to that "Munich". This is something that have always made me think, as the other members of the band and all the speculation never gave importance to that incident in particular. Just imagine how many times may have been the PF members asked about how Syd went sadly craz, and everyone always said more or less the same. How a sensitive guy he was and so on.

Only Richard Wright always said he was sure than "that" was the specific moment when Syd "changed", (you can check out how sure he looks when talking about this thing on the "PF and Syd Barrett Story" DVD). May be guilt and musical restraints are things that were there from the start and this feelings only are enough to explode the whole thing out. But may be there's something about these long way trips that we don't pretty much understand. So maybe behind all the lies that have been said about "Munich", may be there is some kind of truth, I don't know.

Syd Barrett is a tough case. Just like with Peter, he did some solo work before giving up altogether. In fact I think his post Floyd material is quite good.

I've seen the Which One's Pink documentary, and have the Syd Barrett story on DVD. You're right that it's Richard Wright who was the most shaken by Syd's mental break. In fact Wright mentions that Syd visited a doctor, only to find out he had permanent brain damage. Then there's the trip to San Francisco, where Syd didn't want to play a show. He was forced onstage, and he just stood there doing nothing, or playing one note continuously.

Peter Green never displayed that type of behavior, in fact his guitar playing was top notch till his departure (at least from the existing recordings). If you believe the rest of the band and entourage, there is evidence Peter wasn't "well" after Munich. Wolfgang's Vault has the Roundhouse Chalk Farm show (4/24/70) streaming on it's website. If you listen to the stage banter prior to the first song, Peter requests everyone to take their pictures now, and refrain for the rest of the show. Apparently if you're a victim of LSD, flashbulbs from cameras can trigger flashbacks.

I also think that being young adults (no one was older than 23 in FM at the time) you're not thinking about anyone but yourself. I'm sure if someone was really paying attention to Peter's behavior such as his sudden interest in Christianity, and his immediate interest preventing worldwide famine (all of which happened before Munich), maybe things would've been different. The Christianity phase could've been an influence from Jeremy, but feeling guilty for being paid to play music is something else. Since Peter was considered the leader, the band never questioned his authority, until money became the issue. Peter had already changed by Munich, but it's possible that experience ensured he wasn't going to return to his old self.

So to compare the cases, I think Syd's illness was much worse initially. Peter didn't completely snap until the early/mid 70's. The Bob Welch story about Peter Green and the piece of cheese in his hair for an entire weekend was probably a bad sign.

Mrpeabody

08-31-2009, 07:19 AM

The Bob Welch story about Peter Green and the piece of cheese in his hair for an entire weekend was probably a bad sign.

Eh? What story's this?

dino

08-31-2009, 11:13 AM

Eh? What story's this?

It's from the Bob Welch Q&A on this site. Referring to the Penguin sessions, January 1973.

doodyhead

08-31-2009, 02:11 PM

I remember reading that in the archives,

It could be that it had to do with food habits

peter was a proclaimed vegetarian.( I guess cheese did not count in his version) One who was now not opposed to sleeping anywhere and with little regard for personal appearence.
(
Bob Welch was from southern california. (He could have been Veggie, omnivore, canibal ). it would seem that fastidiousness was one of those things that would stick in his mind. Its funny what people remember. Bob also said to peter that he picked on people of lesser ability in his bands. its funny that Bob chose to play with then too. I don't think that was what Peter thought when he brought in Danny or Jeremy.

slipkid

09-01-2009, 02:08 PM

Bob also said to peter that he picked on people of lesser ability in his bands. its funny that Bob chose to play with then too. I don't think that was what Peter thought when he brought in Danny or Jeremy.

I have no idea where Welch would get such an idea. If anything Peter embraced his peers, he wanted to jam with them! Joe Walsh, Duane Allman, Eric Clapton, and Jimi Hendrix aren't slouch guitarists, and Peter played with all of them. Peter even mentions prior to "Encore Jam" (Boston Vol.2), that his fellow British players have egos that are too large to get into jams for fear of a little bruising. He was happy that american guitarists (in this case Walsh) were willing to have some fun on stage.

I have a feeling Bob felt small as a player compared to Peter, so he used "chicken killer" as a joke, as to cut the shame he was feeling.:D As Jeremy was probably the best slide guitarist in Britian at the time, and Danny Kirwan could've fronted many headline acts in the day, this is the only way it makes any sense.

mzero

09-01-2009, 04:01 PM

I have no idea where Welch would get such an idea. If anything Peter embraced his peers, he wanted to jam with them! Joe Walsh, Duane Allman, Eric Clapton, and Jimi Hendrix aren't slouch guitarists, and Peter played with all of them. Peter even mentions prior to "Encore Jam" (Boston Vol.2), that his fellow British players have egos that are too large to get into jams for fear of a little bruising. He was happy that american guitarists (in this case Walsh) were willing to have some fun on stage.

I have a feeling Bob felt small as a player compared to Peter, so he used "chicken killer" as a joke, as to cut the shame he was feeling.:D As Jeremy was probably the best slide guitarist in Britian at the time, and Danny Kirwan could've fronted many headline acts in the day, this is the only way it makes any sense.

i remember reading this years ago and also thinking it was a strange thing for bob to say. i think you and vinnie are correct that this statement reveals as much or more about who said it than it does about who it was said to or about!

i do admire bob very much nonetheless. zero