racism

[carrie721]

this topic was touched on briefly in the philly roll call thread, and i'm curious what other people have to say about it.

at what point are a person's observations considered "racist" and "offensive"?

the audiences at the stevie and lindsey shows i've been to have not exactly been, um, a rainbow coalition of all creeds and colors. they've been made up of white people. OLD white people, to be specific.

is THAT racist? or ageist? :lol:

i see a lot of people -- here and elsewhere -- who are quick to jump on anyone who makes such observations and call them racist and offensive. but is merely describing your experiences discriminatory?

that just doesn't wash with me. i don't want to live in some orwellian newspeak society where simply using racial descriptors and acknowledging physical differences among people gets me in "trouble." we don't live in a homogenous culture, so why pretend we do? almost nothing in pop culture or other realms of art and media has universal appeal to people of all backgrounds. so why on earth is it so "offensive" to recognize that simple truth?

thoughts?

[camchristo]

^I'm with ya. I stumped as to why people were getting upset in the Philly thread. Hejeira was just posting his observations, as far as I could tell. Anyone who takes a moment to observe the crowd at FM, SN or LB shows can see that it is mostly a white (and old) crowd. I can't recall ever seeing a black person in the audience at any of the Mac, Stevie or Lindsey shows I've been too. Oh wait, there was a black girl at Stevie's soundstage taping. However, she was a model who was being paid to be there and admitted to me that she had no earthly idea who Stevie Nicks was and had to look her up online. She mentioned that she was really looking forward to the Earth, Wind and Fire show she was going to be paid to attend a few weeks later. Different demographics have different interest. I'm not saying those demographics don't overlap on occasion.

I don't think it's being racist to notice that. It's not like anyone said that black people aren't welcome at FM shows. They just commented that the usual suspects are old and white.

:shrug:

[paleshadow]

^I'm with ya. I stumped as to why people were getting upset in the Philly thread. Hejeira was just posting his observations, as far as I could tell. Anyone who takes a moment to observe the crowd at FM, SN or LB shows can see that it is mostly a white (and old) crowd. I can't recall ever seeing a black person in the audience at any of the Mac, Stevie or Lindsey shows I've been too. Oh wait, there was a black girl at Stevie's soundstage taping. However, she was a model who was being paid to be there and admitted to me that she had no earthly idea who Stevie Nicks was and had to look her up online. She mentioned that she was really looking forward to the Earth, Wind and Fire show she was going to be paid to attend a few weeks later. Different demographics have different interest. I'm not saying those demographics don't overlap on occasion.

I don't think it's being racist to notice that. It's not like anyone said that black people aren't welcome at FM shows. They just commented that the usual suspects are old and white.

:shrug:

When I saw Stevie in Vegas a few years ago, there was a young black woman in my row who brought her kid. She was singing and dancing along to every song! I remember being surprised to see a black person there. I agree with you both, I don't think it's racist to notice things like that.

[LukeA]

Back ten or so years ago, one of the most prolific posters on the Ledge happened to be a black man- a huge (straight) Stevie fan, for that matter. I also once saw a dude- looking like the spitting image of Morris Day- in a convertible driving down Dearborn in Chicago blasting "Murrow", of all songs.

Its true that Fleetwood Mac's fan base is not as organically integrated as, say, Springsteen's, or U2's, but I don't think this is anything that can be reflected at all upon anything. I didn't read the thread that this is apparently based on, but it sounds like (from your summarization) that its a waste of time anyways.

[carrie721]

^ i think it was a silly thing for someone to get "offended" over, but i see this issue come up fairly often, so i don't think a broader discussion is pointless.

[chriskisn]

I guess my question is (and remembering I'm Australian) why the need to make a point of mentioning the colour of someone's skin?

Do people comment "there were sure a lot of blondes at the show" or perhaps "Wow there were lots of people with hairy arms" or perhaps "half of the audience had big breasts". Of course not.

I understand that racism in the US is a lot more entrenched into society than in a country such as Australia (though don't worry we have our share), so people tend to look at that black vs white concept.

It is only the colour of a persons skin, not anything deeper than that.

[carrie721]

I guess my question is (and remembering I'm Australian) why the need to make a point of mentioning the colour of someone's skin?

Do people comment "there were sure a lot of blondes at the show" or perhaps "Wow there were lots of people with hairy arms" or perhaps "half of the audience had big breasts". Of course not.

I understand that racism in the US is a lot more entrenched into society than in a country such as Australia (though don't worry we have our share), so people tend to look at that black vs white concept.

It is only the colour of a persons skin, not anything deeper than that.

it is and it isn't.

i don't think that anyone should have opportunities closed off to them merely because they are a certain race. however ...

a person's appearance - and skin color is a part of that, even though it's something you can't control, unless you're michael jackson - can often say a lot about a person's cultural background. because of this, race can offer context and meaning to a story.

what gets under my (white, pasty) skin is when people take umbrage at any mention of race (and, really, you could substitute any label here, be it gender, sexuality, age, etc). to use the scenario that inspired this thread as an example, saying it is cool and interesting to see someone who, based on age and race, does not match fleetwood mac's usual demographic is absolutely benign.

and to use one of your examples (i know you were being facetious), if you saw someone with huge knockers at an itty bitty titty committee rally, that would be noteworthy.

i don't think there is any underlying bigotry in these comments; they're merely acknowedging a cognitive dissonance between the expected norm and reality. and moreover, i think it's an overreaction to say that something is offensive when it's just a description of what someone saw.

i think it's cool when i see straight people in gay parts of town or white people in hispanic parts of town, etc etc. these labels aren't always irrelevant, but their relevance doesn't make them categorically pejorative.

[chriskisn]

a person's appearance - and skin color is a part of that, even though it's something you can't control, unless you're michael jackson - can often say a lot about a person's cultural background. because of this, race can offer context and meaning to a story.


Well firstly you make an assumption based on the colour of the skin that it is saying something about a person's cultural background. That person may have exactly the same cultural background to you or I. Oh and on that topic I'm sure my cultural background is somewhat different to yours even though we share a skin colour (or we probably wouldn't be having this discussion).

Secondly it isn't as if you are saying "There were lots of people who had travelled over from India to see Stevie Nicks" hence offering a comment about a differing cultural background etc. What you (or others) are pointing out is that there are Americans of different skin colours at a show.

To me, identifying skin colour as a difference between people for no other reason that actually pointing out there is a difference is unnecessary.

[carrie721]

Well firstly you make an assumption based on the colour of the skin that it is saying something about a person's cultural background. That person may have exactly the same cultural background to you or I. Oh and on that topic I'm sure my cultural background is somewhat different to yours even though we share a skin colour (or we probably wouldn't be having this discussion).

thanks for that steaming pile of condescension, person on the other side of the world. :lol:

Secondly it isn't as if you are saying "There were lots of people who had travelled over from India to see Stevie Nicks" hence offering a comment about a differing cultural background etc. What you (or others) are pointing out is that there are Americans of different skin colours at a show.

to say there is one cultural experience for all americans is just naive. age, sex, socioeconomic status, sexual identity, geography, and yes, race all play a part. i assume this is true in any large country with a heterogenous population.

To me, identifying skin colour as a difference between people for no other reason that actually pointing out there is a difference is unnecessary.

if you won't even admit that race can offer insight into someone's cultural background, then we can't have a conversation.

[HejiraNYC]

Well, as one of the handful of racial minorities here (I assume...), I can honestly say that I am pretty much over all of the political correctness when it comes to race. I resent the notion that, when asked to describe someone physically, I have to think twice... and mull it over again... before mentioning someone's ethnicity. Instead of simply saying, "it's the black dude over there wearing the T-shirt," you sometimes have to say something completely generic and useless like, "it's a man, about six feet tall... um... wearing a T-shirt... um... maybe 200 pounds... brown eyes... um..." If I'm black, call me black. If I'm Asian, call me Asian. It's okay. Really. And if you are surprised (as in pleasantly surprised) to see a young black person at a Fleetwood Mac concert, it's okay to feel that way, just like you would be surprised to see a 70-year-old man at a Jonas Brothers concert. Sure, it happens... but it's rather unusual. If you are in a field of pink tulips, you are definitely going to notice the stray blue tulip. If you are an NBA all-star standing in a crowded subway platform in Tokyo, I would notice you. If you are a double-amputee track and field runner with metal spikes instead of legs, I would notice you, and I would feel awed and inspired by your courage and perseverence. What's wrong with that? You shouldn't have to sit down and interview these "different" people and really get to know them before formulating an emotional/intellectual response to the situation- that's just such PC hogwash.

[chriskisn]

if you won't even admit that race can offer insight into someone's cultural background, then we can't have a conversation.

No you are right we can't...

[HejiraNYC]

if you won't even admit that race can offer insight into someone's cultural background, then we can't have a conversation.

Thanks for that :xoxo: . I have never been to Australia, so I have no idea how homogenized (or not) the population is there, but America is not a perfect melting pot- it's still very much segregated along ethnic and cultural lines. And the segregation is mostly self-inflicted- for better or worse. Personally I love the diversity- it would be so boring to be in a country where everyone was the same color and everyone ate the same food, spoke the same language, wore the same clothes, listened to the same music, etc. I totally fall into certain ethnic stereotypes, and I'll be the first to admit them! Rather than being so sensitive about and fearful of stereotypes, we should embrace them and have fun with them- and even debunk them as-needed. That's the only way we're going to get beyond all of these silly PC shenanigans and start understanding each other better.

[carrie721]

Thanks for that :xoxo: . I have never been to Australia, so I have no idea how homogenized (or not) the population is there, but America is not a perfect melting pot- it's still very much segregated along ethnic and cultural lines. And the segregation is mostly self-inflicted- for better or worse. Personally I love the diversity- it would be so boring to be in a country where everyone was the same color and everyone ate the same food, spoke the same language, wore the same clothes, listened to the same music, etc. I totally fall into certain ethnic stereotypes, and I'll be the first to admit them! Rather than being so sensitive about and fearful of stereotypes, we should embrace them and have fun with them- and even debunk them as-needed. That's the only way we're going to get beyond all of these silly PC shenanigans and start understanding each other better.

amen, mr. ching-chong ;) .

i think stereotypes are funny, even when they apply to me. helloooooo, i am a dyke. i drive a pickup truck. i love dogs. i play softball. so on those counts, i'm pretty stereotypical and i acknowledge it. my friends call me a dyke and make jokes about. even though i'm not stereotypical on other counts, (i don't listen to ani, i don't love rachel maddow, i don't hate men), the label doesn't fluster me.

people take themselves too seriously.

[skcin]

Well, as one of the handful of racial minorities here (I assume...), I can honestly say that I am pretty much over all of the political correctness when it comes to race. I resent the notion that, when asked to describe someone physically, I have to think twice... and mull it over again... before mentioning someone's ethnicity. Instead of simply saying, "it's the black dude over there wearing the T-shirt," you sometimes have to say something completely generic and useless like, "it's a man, about six feet tall... um... wearing a T-shirt... um... maybe 200 pounds... brown eyes... um..." If I'm black, call me black. If I'm Asian, call me Asian. It's okay. Really. And if you are surprised (as in pleasantly surprised) to see a young black person at a Fleetwood Mac concert, it's okay to feel that way, just like you would be surprised to see a 70-year-old man at a Jonas Brothers concert. Sure, it happens... but it's rather unusual. If you are in a field of pink tulips, you are definitely going to notice the stray blue tulip. If you are an NBA all-star standing in a crowded subway platform in Tokyo, I would notice you. If you are a double-amputee track and field runner with metal spikes instead of legs, I would notice you, and I would feel awed and inspired by your courage and perseverence. What's wrong with that? You shouldn't have to sit down and interview these "different" people and really get to know them before formulating an emotional/intellectual response to the situation- that's just such PC hogwash.

How dare you assume that, you racist. :mad:

Seriously. :rolleyes: It's gotten to the point that people are fearful of mentioning anything about someone's apprearance to describe them. I could understand of someone said "hey, there was this n*gger at the show I was at!" or "see the guy over there, the gook?" Obviously racially insensitive & rude. If someone said "wtf is that spic doing at a Mac show?" Yeah, that's ****ty. I remember getting into an argument with Amber years ago because she said she saw a "chocolate fan" at a show. I thought it was offensive at the time, and she felt there was nothing wrong with saying that since her friend (who is black) had said the same thing, in those words.

But to simply mention someone's color/appearance & comment that you wouldn't have expected to see them at a show? What's wrong with that? We have 4 nurses @ work, 3 are white & 1 is black. our students often speak very limited English. When we ask them who they were treated by & they can't recall the nurse's name, we sometimes have to start with "is she white or black?" and move on from there to height, glasses or no glasses, hair color, etc. I have yet to find someone who is offended by this - nurses OR patients. :shrug:

Specifically to the Mac show & the Philly thread, would we be discussing this at all had Hejira said "there was this really young teenager at the show, I thought that was really cool." I think not. Even though he's assuming that a young teen wouldn't normally be a fan & he's assuming things about his/her culture & upbringing that he is basing soley on age/appearance? Thoughts?

[jannieC]

As a social worker/therapist, I spent a LOT of time in graduate school mulling over diversity, white privilege, etc. Without going into detail (you're welcome) I will say that we were taught to acknowledge differences. For instance, if I am facilitating an all female, African-American domestic violence therapy group, I should, right off the bat, explain that I acknowledge that I am "different" and therefore don't have the same experiences, perspectives, etc., that they may have. It's silly to think that people don't have different believes and ideas based on their culture. As a social worker, I was taught to understand and embrace cultural differences.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with commenting on race, period. It *is* usual to see a black person at a Fleetwood Mac concert and I don't see anything wrong with pointing that out. I haven't read the thread in question, but as long as it's not derogatory, what difference does it make?

As an aside, the radio morning show I listen to here features two white guys and a black woman, Diedre (love her). She is a Fleetwood Mac/Stevie fan and she recently told a story about her best friend in college. She attended a historically black university here and one day as she was walking through the dorms, she heard Rhiannon playing on someone's stereo. It was so out of place and unusual that she knocked on the girls door and they've been friends ever since. :)

[carrie721]

How dare you assume that, you racist. :mad:

oh great, now the cronies are really rolling in. :lol:

Seriously. :rolleyes: It's gotten to the point that people are fearful of mentioning anything about someone's apprearance to describe them. I could understand of someone said "hey, there was this n*gger at the show I was at!" or "see the guy over there, the gook?" Obviously racially insensitive & rude. If someone said "wtf is that spic doing at a Mac show?" Yeah, that's ****ty. I remember getting into an argument with Amber years ago because she said she saw a "chocolate fan" at a show. I thought it was offensive at the time, and she felt there was nothing wrong with saying that since her friend (who is black) had said the same thing, in those words.

thanks, now i want chocolate.

But to simply mention someone's color/appearance & comment that you wouldn't have expected to see them at a show? What's wrong with that? We have 4 nurses @ work, 3 are white & 1 is black. our students often speak very limited English. When we ask them who they were treated by & they can't recall the nurse's name, we sometimes have to start with "is she white or black?" and move on from there to height, glasses or no glasses, hair color, etc. I have yet to find someone who is offended by this - nurses OR patients. :shrug:

Specifically to the Mac show & the Philly thread, would we be discussing this at all had Hejira said "there was this really young teenager at the show, I thought that was really cool." I think not. Even though he's assuming that a young teen wouldn't normally be a fan & he's assuming things about his/her culture & upbringing that he is basing soley on age/appearance? Thoughts?

yeah, i don't think people would be as up in arms. race and sex seem push people's buttons more than others. to ignore race entirely is illogical. right now i am reading fannie flagg's fried green tomatoes - big parts of the story would be nonsensical and pointless without racial descriptors. and the same goes for sex. i know a person who wants to remove first names and gender-specific pronouns from the history books because history is "biased" against women and she thinks that girls get discouraged reading about dead white guys running the world.

on. what. planet?

[jannieC]

I could understand of someone said "hey, there was this n*gger at the show I was at!" or "see the guy over there, the gook?" Obviously racially insensitive & rude. If someone said "wtf is that spic doing at a Mac show?" Yeah, that's ****ty.


Yay, thank you- I was going to try and phrase something like that, but couldn't figure out how. :nod:

[HejiraNYC]

Yay, thank you- I was going to try and phrase something like that, but couldn't figure out how. :nod:

Okay... so what about the use of the term "African American" vs. "black?" One of the problems I have with the term "African American" is that it only applies to residents of one particular continent. What if a person is from the UK or an actual country in Africa? They are not "African Americans" simply by being physically present in the Americas. Or maybe they are? :shrug: And would they take offense at being called "American?" By contrast "black" is an actual ethnic descriptor, and it is officially recognized as a demographic characteristic by most organizations.

As you can tell, I use the term "black" liberally, yet I sometimes feel an irrational chill when I use the term. My rational mind knows it's appropriate, but somehow, with all of this PC baloney, my subconscious is urging me to use AA instead, just in case... :shrug:

[jannieC]

Okay... so what about the use of the term "African American" vs. "black?" One of the problems I have with the term "African American" is that it only applies to residents of one particular continent. What if a person is from the UK or an actual country in Africa? They are not "African Americans" simply by being physically present in the Americas. Or maybe they are? :shrug: And would they take offense at being called "American?" By contrast "black" is an actual ethnic descriptor, and it is officially recognized as a demographic characteristic by most organizations.

As you can tell, I use the term "black" liberally, yet I sometimes feel an irrational chill when I use the term. My rational mind knows it's appropriate, but somehow, with all of this PC baloney, my subconscious is urging me to use AA instead, just in case... :shrug:

Professionally, I say, "African American" because god forbid, right? ;) But personally, I say "black". Most people I know who are black, say "black". But there were some people in school that were ultra PC and would only use terms like African American, etc. :shrug:

[skcin]

^ None of my black friends are offended when I describe them as black, even if they self-identify as African American. It does get tricky, though, you're right - I work at a college & our student population is almost 15% international students. One of our student asistants is from jamaica, another employee is Haitian. While I don't believe they are offended if referred to as AA, it's not really their actual heritage.

[Miss Vicky]

Just out of curiousity, how many Asians have people seen at the show? Not a lot, I would assume - judging by my own experiences. While I don't find Hejira's statement to be particularly offensive or racist, I strongly suspect that if someone had had a similar experience in spotting an Asian fan on the bus and commenting that "it warmed their heart to think that, on some rough and tumble block in Chinatown, there is a young asian boy grooving to "Gypsy" through his headphones as he walks down the sidewalk" he'd be all over it slinging his own accusations of racism.

[HejiraNYC]

Just out of curiousity, how many Asians have people seen at the show? Not a lot, I would assume - judging by my own experiences. While I don't find Hejira's statement to be particularly offensive or racist, I strongly suspect that if someone had had a similar experience in spotting an Asian fan on the bus and commenting that "it warmed their heart to think that, on some rough and tumble block in Chinatown, there is a young asian boy grooving to "Gypsy" through his headphones as he walks down the sidewalk" he'd be all over it slinging his own accusations of racism.

Please don't speak on my behalf. You don't know who I am and you don't know what I'd think, so please do us all a favor and p*ss off. And what part of "she's from West Philly" don't you understand? And my observations were as much about her age as her ethnicity, yet you can only harp on the ethnic aspect of it. You have repeatedly demonstrated your ignorance on all kinds of matters here previously so why did you finally come out of the dank cellar to start spewing your garbage again? Seriously... please stop it.

[Miss Vicky]

I never said that I "know" what you would do. I said that I "suspect" that's what you would do. I also said that I didn't find your original comment to be racist, but you choose to demonstrate your own ignorance by ignoring that part of my post.

In any case, I simply stated what I know I'm not alone in thinking.

P.S.

I "harped" only on the ethnic aspect of the post because this is a thread about racism.

[HejiraNYC]

I never said that I "know" what you would do. I said that I "suspect" that's what you would do. I also said that I didn't find your original comment to be racist, but you choose to demonstrate your own ignorance by ignoring that part of my post.

In any case, I simply stated what I know I'm not alone in thinking.

Well your suspicion is dead wrong. And your whole analogy is completely off-base and incorrect. Furthermore you were clearly harping on the race thing since you didn't mention age.

Trying to deal rationally with you is like pissing in the wind. No, scratch that... it's less productive than pissing in the wind- at least I get a sense of relief.

[Miss Vicky]

Furthermore you were clearly harping on the race thing since you didn't mention age.


This is a thread about racism, as the title clearly states. :wavey:

[skcin]

Um. What just happened? A simple "no, I would NOT do that" would suffice, rather than telling a person to shut up & go away. I thought this thread was going well & we were actually having a discussion without getting personal &/or defensive and slinging mud at one another. But OK. That's just my 2 cents.

[Miss Vicky]

The point of my post wasn't really to "sling mud" - though it's no secret that he and I are not especially fond of each other. Okay, well maybe a little mud slinging was intended. But really I don't think the post that led to this thread was racist, however - given his history of (over) sensitivy regarding perceived racism against Asians, he might have chosen to word his original post a little differently or even thought better of posting it at all, since it could be - and was - perceived as racist.

[carrie721]

it almost feels like the good old days. :lol:

[strandinthewind]

Only race - and particularly black - gets people up in arms when white people refer to it in any way other than praise.

For example, no one gets nearly as upset (if they get upset at all) when people refer to people as that "girl" over there, that "redneck" over there, that "old dude" over there, that "fat chick" over there, those "queens" over there, etc. Moreover, if someone said "that Asian girl was grooving at the concert," no one would have batted an eye. Yet, when HNY referred to this girl as black, he was branded by some as a horrible racist.

HNY also referred to her as being from West Philly. However, I believe the girl told him where she was from etc. Upon learning this tidbit, those attacking HNY never apologized for being dead wrong about automatically assuming HNY assumed, in a racist manner, that she was from there. That speaks volumes :shrug:

In the end, true racism (a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race/racial prejudice or discrimination) is a vile thing. I think we as individuals and as a society should all go out of our way to eradicate it - the sooner the better. Yet, I can assure you that the people on here that took offense at HNY's clearly non-racist comment will think that I am a horrible racist for even bringing this up; they will refuse to believe I mean the first and second sentences of this paragraph. That is an example of how ridiculous our society has become.

Also, I used the phrase "common black vernacular" or something like that awhile back in a conversation where that point was relevant. I got SLAMMED publicly and privately as a racist. To me, that is ridiculous because what I said was a fact. There is such a thing as ghetto speak or whatever. Black people refer to it constantly as "going all ghetto" etc. Yet, when I say it in the non-racist way that I did - all hell breaks loose. People could not see the forest for the trees.

So, in the end, unless a white person praises a black person, they are better off not mentioning anything about race no matter how innocent. That is how absurd PC has become.

[strandinthewind]

it almost feels like the good old days. :lol:

Bow me white bi*ch :eek::eek:

You split tails are luck you got the vote :eek::eek:

:wavey:

[SortaSavageLike]

Now would seem like a good time for me to ironically quote Pink Floyd's In the Flesh again.

On the other hand, probably not.

[strandinthewind]

So ya thought ya might like to go to the show.
To feel the warm thrill of confusion, that space cadet glow.
I got me some bad news for you, Sunshine.
Pink isn't well, he stayed back at the hotel,
And he sent us along as a surrugate band.
We're gonna find out where you fans really stand.
Are there any queers in the theatre tonight?
Get 'em up against the wall. -- 'Gainst the wall!
And that one in the spotlight, he don't look right to me.
Get him up against the wall. -- 'Gainst the wall!
And that one looks Jewish, and that one's a coon.
Who let all this riffraff into the room?
There's one smoking a joint, and another with spots!
If I had my way I'd have all of ya shot.

Because that certainly is the same or really less racist than HNY noting that a black girl from West Philly was at a FM concert and that the vast majority of FM concert goers are old and white :rolleyes:

Do you people really have no perspective whatsoever?

On edit - it occurred to me that your use of "ironically" could mean you were not saying what I initially thought. So, if I misunderstood, I apologize and reassert the original post in general and not to you :cool:

[carrie721]

Only race - and particularly black - gets people up in arms when white people refer to it in any way other than praise.

yeah. and this leads to often cringe-worthy over-the-top praise about people who look particularly "ethnic." not that people who look ethnic aren't beautiful, blah blah blah, but that overcompensating, over-the-top sh*t gets under my (again, pasty and white) skin.

For example, no one gets nearly as upset (if they get upset at all) when people refer to people as that "girl" over there, that "redneck" over there, that "old dude" over there, that "fat chick" over there,

I CAN HEAR YOU.

those "queens" over there, etc. Moreover, if someone said "that Asian girl was grooving at the concert," no one would have batted an eye. Yet, when HNY referred to this girl as black, he was branded by some as a horrible racist.

HNY also referred to her as being from West Philly. However, I believe the girl told him where she was from etc. Upon learning this tidbit, those attacking HNY never apologized for being dead wrong about automatically assuming HNY assumed, in a racist manner, that she was from there. That speaks volumes :shrug:

In the end, true racism (a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race/racial prejudice or discrimination) is a vile thing. I think we as individuals and as a society should all go out of our way to eradicate it - the sooner the better. Yet, I can assure you that the people on here that took offense at HNY's clearly non-racist comment will think that I am a horrible racist for even bringing this up; they will refuse to believe I mean the first and second sentences of this paragraph. That is an example of how ridiculous our society has become.

Also, I used the phrase "common black vernacular" or something like that awhile back in a conversation where that point was relevant. I got SLAMMED publicly and privately as a racist. To me, that is ridiculous because what I said was a fact. There is such a thing as ghetto speak or whatever. Black people refer to it constantly as "going all ghetto" etc. Yet, when I say it in the non-racist way that I did - all hell breaks loose. People could not see the forest for the trees.

oh, don't get me started on attitudes toward black english vernacular. people want to deny it exists as a separate entity from standard english because it's deemed racist to even bring it up due to the common notion that BEV is "stupid" english. but if you study it, it is a separate dialect with its own distinct syntax. a syntax, by the way, that is so different from standard english that ESL techniques are often (but not often enough) used when teaching young inner city kids.

in fact, there is evidence that supports the idea that BEV evolved from a pidgin created when slaves from west african countries were first brought to the US centuries ago. when a pidgin is created, the dominant language provides the syntax while the secondary language supplies the lexicon. this would explain why BEV syntax differs from standard english.

i told you not to get me started.

:lol:

So, in the end, unless a white person praises a black person, they are better off not mentioning anything about race no matter how innocent. That is how absurd PC has become.

ayep.

Bow me white bi*ch :eek::eek:

You split tails are luck you got the vote :eek::eek:

:wavey:

hey where's your lawn jockey, tweezers? :D

[BTFLCHLD]

thus far, I've noticed many a reference in this thread to 'people' and 'everyone up in arms' over a statement in the other thread; in reviewing the other thread we got this:

Originally Posted by HejiraNYC
Please get over yourself. In case you haven't noticed, FM/Stevie shows are generally a sea of older white people with some exceptions. Her youth and her ethnicity struck me as being quite unusual for an FM show, and it just made me feel good that she was there and made me hopeful that FM's fanbase was broadening.

Originally Posted by eric51078
I AM over myself. Clearly the fanbase is older white people with an exception but I just think it was out of line but whatever it's my own opinion I guess. Some things should just be kept in thought..not typed out but whatever..I'm over it. At least I enjoyed the pictures.

soooo...'people' and 'everyone' would be Eric? :confused:

came across this today via myspace bulletin:
Why is it ok to make fun of fat people if you are fat, but not ok if you aren't? What sense does that make? If the idea of being called "fat" is hurtful to you then it should be hurtful no matter who it comes from. If it only hurts your feelings when a skinny person does it then it's just an artificial "hurt". You're just looking for a reason to be mad. A lot of times doing comedy I find that people are just getting mad because they feel something SHOULD make them mad and not because it actually does. **** artificial feelings! When something is rude it's rude, but if it doesn't bother you then don't pretend it does! If I make fun of a tollbooth worker that is fat it's because I don't like the tollbooth worker and being fat is one of their flaws. It doesn't mean I'm making fun of ALL fat people. Making fun of one person doesn't make me apathetic towards everybody.

and this today via aol:
Brad Garrett's 'Racist' Taunts: 'Wear the Turban!'
Brad Garrett ignited a new racial firestorm yesterday when the giant actor dropped some serious slurs at a paparazzo during a heated argument in the middle of the street. We don't know what set off the scuffle, but Garrett can be clearly heard saying, "Wear the turban! Wear the turban!" People had to restrain both Garrett and the photog from attacking each other, but eventually Brad got into his car and drove off. A rep for Garrett was not immediately available for comment. Him and the pap are yelling at each other and being held back BG says "IN ENGLISH" then repeats "WEAR THE TURBAN WEAR THE TURBAN" a couple of times.

[carrie721]

thus far, I've noticed many a reference in this thread to 'people' and 'everyone up in arms' over a statement in the other thread; in reviewing the other thread we got this:



soooo...'people' and 'everyone' would be Eric? :confused:

i've said a couple times that i was speaking in a broader context than that incident :shrug:

came across this today via myspace bulletin:
Why is it ok to make fun of fat people if you are fat, but not ok if you aren't? What sense does that make? If the idea of being called "fat" is hurtful to you then it should be hurtful no matter who it comes from. If it only hurts your feelings when a skinny person does it then it's just an artificial "hurt". You're just looking for a reason to be mad. A lot of times doing comedy I find that people are just getting mad because they feel something SHOULD make them mad and not because it actually does. **** artificial feelings! When something is rude it's rude, but if it doesn't bother you then don't pretend it does! If I make fun of a tollbooth worker that is fat it's because I don't like the tollbooth worker and being fat is one of their flaws. It doesn't mean I'm making fun of ALL fat people. Making fun of one person doesn't make me apathetic towards everybody.

i can't disagree with that.

and this today via aol:
Brad Garrett's 'Racist' Taunts: 'Wear the Turban!'
Brad Garrett ignited a new racial firestorm yesterday when the giant actor dropped some serious slurs at a paparazzo during a heated argument in the middle of the street. We don't know what set off the scuffle, but Garrett can be clearly heard saying, "Wear the turban! Wear the turban!" People had to restrain both Garrett and the photog from attacking each other, but eventually Brad got into his car and drove off. A rep for Garrett was not immediately available for comment. Him and the pap are yelling at each other and being held back BG says "IN ENGLISH" then repeats "WEAR THE TURBAN WEAR THE TURBAN" a couple of times.

how long until BG announces he's going to meet with muslim leaders so he can get to the bottom of his race issues? :lol:

[BTFLCHLD]

it almost feels like the good old days. :lol: yeps
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a152/BTFLCHLD/strandwind.gif

[carrie721]

yeps
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a152/BTFLCHLD/strandwind.gif

OH MY GOD.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

as a lesbian, i'm offended that you would post this in my thread.

[BTFLCHLD]

OH MY GOD. :lol: :lol: :lol: as a lesbian, i'm offended that you would post this in my thread. hehe wonder if strandy will recall the original posting of that pic...funtimes.

[strandinthewind]

oh, don't get me started on attitudes toward black english vernacular. people want to deny it exists as a separate entity from standard english because it's deemed racist to even bring it up due to the common notion that BEV is "stupid" english. but if you study it, it is a separate dialect with its own distinct syntax. a syntax, by the way, that is so different from standard english that ESL techniques are often (but not often enough) used when teaching young inner city kids.

in fact, there is evidence that supports the idea that BEV evolved from a pidgin created when slaves from west african countries were first brought to the US centuries ago. when a pidgin is created, the dominant language provides the syntax while the secondary language supplies the lexicon. this would explain why BEV syntax differs from standard english.

i told you not to get me started.

Oh Good Lawd CHILD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I do not really think that the BEV is a bad thing, there are many dialects in the US, etc. However, it is like the foreigners who move here and refuse to learn to speak passable English. That is their right, etc. However, if they want to get a job, get ahead, etc. - they need to learn how to communicate effectively with majority of the people. If someone hauls up into a job interview speaking ghetto that is hard to understand, they likely will lose that job to someone who speaks more mainstream English.

. . . tweezers? :D

If I'd be black - I wouldn't need them :eek:

[strandinthewind]

yeps
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a152/BTFLCHLD/strandwind.gif

Tobagonning (sp.?) down the Great Wall of China (interestingly - it was the "Black Wall" ) -- but, the masterbatory aspect was added later -- although, had I thought of it at the time . . . .

[strandinthewind]

. . . as a lesbian, i'm offended that you would post this in my thread.

You just wish you had one :cool:

[strandinthewind]

. . . soooo...'people' and 'everyone' would be Eric?

I know - poor Eric :laugh: I think he misread the initial posting as as HNY assuming this black chick was from West Philly because she was black, etc. Now everyone seemingly is ganging up on him.

I think this thread is more general than that though that was the reference point of this thread.

[carrie721]

Oh Good Lawd CHILD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I do not really think that the BEV is a bad thing, there are many dialects in the US, etc. However, it is like the foreigners who move here and refuse to learn to speak passable English. That is their right, etc. However, if they want to get a job, get ahead, etc. - they need to learn how to communicate effectively with majority of the people. If someone hauls up into a job interview speaking ghetto that is hard to understand, they likely will lose that job to someone who speaks more mainstream English.

oh, i don't disagree at all. however, learning problems start young with these kids if they are not taught to value standard english in the way you just described. too often, these kids fall by the wayside because inner city teachers are not properly trained or are just overwhelmed with their other giant responsibilities. and then these things snowball quickly.

If I'd be black - I wouldn't need them :eek:

you'd need both hands and an economy size tub of pert plus :cool:

[carrie721]

You just wish you had one :cool:

i can buy one in whatever color, size, and texture i damn well please :woohoo:

[BTFLCHLD]

I think this thread is more general than that though that was the reference point of this thread. sure...I guess I read this in the second post "I stumped as to why people were getting upset in the Philly thread" and then noticed 'people' and 'everyone' throughout; just sought clarification. thanks.

[BTFLCHLD]

masterbatory aspect was added later prettysure curt and diss were involved...and I do believe you got all huffed out at the time...you didn't type to me for a week. :laugh:

[mylittledemon]

and this today via aol:
Brad Garrett's 'Racist' Taunts: 'Wear the Turban!'
Brad Garrett ignited a new racial firestorm yesterday when the giant actor dropped some serious slurs at a paparazzo during a heated argument in the middle of the street. We don't know what set off the scuffle, but Garrett can be clearly heard saying, "Wear the turban! Wear the turban!" People had to restrain both Garrett and the photog from attacking each other, but eventually Brad got into his car and drove off. A rep for Garrett was not immediately available for comment. Him and the pap are yelling at each other and being held back BG says "IN ENGLISH" then repeats "WEAR THE TURBAN WEAR THE TURBAN" a couple of times.

I actually thought that was pretty funny. On the same token, what Michael Richards (Kramer) did at the Laugh factory went a bit too far.

I guess it just depends on the situation, but for the most part you just have to stay away from those types of things. Saying them, or even discussing it. You never know who may overhear and get genuinely hurt. For example, I know if you work for IKEA and you say the word "retard" in the store, you can get in serious trouble if not fired. Now...I'll admit I say that word every now and then, and always in jest. I would never use it to make fun of an actual mentally handicapped person. Who's to say what you meant by a certain word? It's all leading to censorship! (V For Vendetta anyone?) haha

Now in terms of ethnic stuff, one of my best friends David is full on Puerto Rican. He is the KING of racist jokes and slurs, but if you knew the guy, you'd know his intent would never be to hurt anyone. He has the lightest heart about things. He tells really bad baby jokes (Baby in a blender?) kind of thing. Anyway, I digress...I call him Mexican all the time. And when/if he says something about being Puerto Rican...I go "Oh wait...you're not caucasian!?" and then I pretend I'm leaving and can't be his friend anymore. The point IS, outside of that close realm of friendship its usually deemed really inappropriate isnt it?

I don't suppose I've offered anything of value on the subject. My personal opinion/thoughts/feelings..? I think true racism comes from where your heart lies---& at your core if you truly don't believe that we're all created equal, then I suppose that is where hate begins.

[strandinthewind]

. . . I don't suppose I've offered anything of value on the subject . . .

Why start now :shrug:

:p

Are you in NZ yet?

[strandinthewind]

prettysure curt and diss were involved...and I do believe you got all huffed out at the time...you didn't type to me for a week. :laugh:

Nah - I thought it was funny.

[bikerchic]

With all this race talk, I think I'll watch Russell Peters "Red, White, and Brown" tonite :laugh:

[David]

I don't use that word racist quite so much. I prefer the word bigot, which doesn't have quite the stentorian connotation of slavery or ovens or other tragic circumstances. I support free speech in the public sphere -- the State has no business curtailing our speech unreasonably. We seem to be living in an Age of Phony Apologies. I'm sick of listening to people apologize for something they said when they're only sorry they got "caught." Also, of course, the PC Speech Police are as active as ever. Their entire agenda is ridiculous.

[gldstwmn]

yeps
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a152/BTFLCHLD/strandwind.gif

OH. MY. GOD. :laugh::laugh::laugh: Hi honey! :wavey:

[strandinthewind]

I don't use that word racist quite so much. I prefer the word bigot, which doesn't have quite the stentorian connotation of slavery or ovens or other tragic circumstances. I support free speech in the public sphere -- the State has no business curtailing our speech unreasonably. We seem to be living in an Age of Phony Apologies. I'm sick of listening to people apologize for something they said when they're only sorry they got "caught." Also, of course, the PC Speech Police are as active as ever. Their entire agenda is ridiculous.

Detente

:cool:

[vivfox]

I have this personal theory that when we die and face God to be judged He will appear before each and every one of us in the human form we are predjudiced against the most. Because He created all of humanity he will want an explanation of why we hated so and so, etc.

[carrie721]

I have this personal theory that when we die and face God to be judged He will appear before each and every one of us in the human form we are predjudiced against the most. Because He created all of humanity he will want an explanation of why we hated so and so, etc.

um, so when you die, is god going to take the form of a disabled vet? :lol:

[wondergirl9847]

Okay... so what about the use of the term "African American" vs. "black?" One of the problems I have with the term "African American" is that it only applies to residents of one particular continent. What if a person is from the UK or an actual country in Africa? They are not "African Americans" simply by being physically present in the Americas. Or maybe they are? :shrug: And would they take offense at being called "American?" By contrast "black" is an actual ethnic descriptor, and it is officially recognized as a demographic characteristic by most organizations.

What about a Jamaican person who has recently moved to America, but is not an American citizen? What do we call them?

;)

[strandinthewind]

What about a Jamaican person who has recently moved to America, but is not an American citizen? What do we call them?

;)

Stoned

:shrug:

[carrie721]

What about a Jamaican person who has recently moved to America, but is not an American citizen? What do we call them?

;)

jamaican me crazy!

[wondergirl9847]

Stoned

:shrug:

Ba-dum-pssshhh. :laugh:

[mylittledemon]

I don't use that word racist quite so much. I prefer the word bigot, which doesn't have quite the stentorian connotation of slavery or ovens or other tragic circumstances. I support free speech in the public sphere -- the State has no business curtailing our speech unreasonably. We seem to be living in an Age of Phony Apologies. I'm sick of listening to people apologize for something they said when they're only sorry they got "caught." Also, of course, the PC Speech Police are as active as ever. Their entire agenda is ridiculous.

Well said.

[rubytuesday]

What about a Jamaican person who has recently moved to America, but is not an American citizen? What do we call them?

;)

Aren't they African American too? They were brought over from western Africa to the Americas. America isn't a country remember. They're not native to Jamaica, they're Africans in a country in the Americas so I would have thought they'd be African American too.

[Jondalar]

this topic was touched on briefly in the philly roll call thread, and i'm curious what other people have to say about it.

at what point are a person's observations considered "racist" and "offensive"?

the audiences at the stevie and lindsey shows i've been to have not exactly been, um, a rainbow coalition of all creeds and colors. they've been made up of white people. OLD white people, to be specific.

is THAT racist? or ageist? :lol:

i see a lot of people -- here and elsewhere -- who are quick to jump on anyone who makes such observations and call them racist and offensive. but is merely describing your experiences discriminatory?

that just doesn't wash with me. i don't want to live in some orwellian newspeak society where simply using racial descriptors and acknowledging physical differences among people gets me in "trouble." we don't live in a homogenous culture, so why pretend we do? almost nothing in pop culture or other realms of art and media has universal appeal to people of all backgrounds. so why on earth is it so "offensive" to recognize that simple truth?

thoughts?

Music is culture. Black people have a different experience than a lot of white people. The same for whites. People gravitate toward music that represents that common experience. They also gravitate toward their heros and sheros.

If you don't see a lot people of different ethnic groups at a Fleetwood Mac or Stevie Nicks concert, so what? It's their loss.

[Jondalar]

Oh and by the way, I've mean't a lot of black and hispanic people who are extremely racist, so don't lay this **** on Fleetwood Mac's white racist music.

[mylittledemon]

Fleetwood Mac's white racist music.

what are you talking about?!

[carrie721]

Oh and by the way, I've mean't a lot of black and hispanic people who are extremely racist, so don't lay this **** on Fleetwood Mac's white racist music.

yeah, what on earth are you talking about? :lol:

[Miss Vicky]

yeah, what on earth are you talking about? :lol:

I was wondering the same thing. I don't think that, at any point, ANYBODY here ever accused the band of being racist.

[strandinthewind]

I was wondering the same thing. I don't think that, at any point, ANYBODY here ever accused the band of being racist.

I agree about this thread.

Interestingly, many years ago someone (Tyrisha maybe) asked whether La Nicks was a racist because, other than Bobbye Hall, none of her band up until and including then were white. If I remember correctly, it caused a huge argument at the time.

[David]

Interestingly, many years ago someone (Tyrisha maybe) asked whether La Nicks was a racist because, other than Bobbye Hall, none of her band up until and including then were white. If I remember correctly, it caused a huge argument at the time.I remember that gal!

Sounds as if she was more than a little misinformed.

Black musicians in Stevie's bands:

Bobbye Hall
Wizard
Elisecia Wright
Chris Cameron
Don Boyette
Eddie M.
Lenny Castro
Land Richards


And that's as far as my tourbooks go!

[strandinthewind]

^

You are correct. I seem to remember that thread was started to stir shiitte.

[diane_k]

^

You are correct. I seem to remember that thread was started to stir shiitte.

And really, hasn't Stevie said on more than one occasion that she's basically an old R&B singer? Doesn't sound too racist to me! :lol:

~DK

[Jondalar]

^

You are correct. I seem to remember that thread was started to stir shiitte.

I think this thread was started to stir some ****.

[carrie721]

I think this thread was started to stir some ****.

was it really? cuz it seems to have turned into a pretty interesting discussion :wavey:

aside from a few questionable contributions (DK).

[Moz]

I remember that gal!

Sounds as if she was more than a little misinformed.

Black musicians in Stevie's bands:

Bobbye Hall
Wizard
Elisecia Wright
Chris Cameron
Don Boyette
Eddie M.
Lenny Castro
Land Richards


And that's as far as my tourbooks go!

Was Wizard her bassist (late 80s) that had a thing for sequined hats?

[Cornflake Girl]

was it really? cuz it seems to have turned into a pretty interesting discussion :wavey:

aside from a few questionable contributions (DK).



Seems like any topic that can be deemed 'controversial' is **** stirring . :rolleyes: I think this was a very interesting idea for a thread.

[David]

Was Wizard her bassist (late 80s) that had a thing for sequined hats?
I ... never saw him with a hat on. I don't know.
He was (or is?) the bassist in Mother's Finest.

[strandinthewind]

I think this thread was started to stir some ****.

Which is my point - anytime white people (presumably 99% in here are not black) presume to comment in any way on racism pertaining to black people - other than to agree that it all is racism, etc. - it is looked upon by most in a negative light :shrug:

Such is life.

In the end, who can blame people in this regard. Black people are routinely told by the govt. and others (mostly the D party) that they are special and deserve an automatic advantage over non-black people because of a 40 year long attempt to right the wrongs of slavery, which ended in 1864. Moreover, the Civil Rights Act (designed to end discrimination) was 40 years ago. In the end, as long as one part of society gets an automatic leg up because of nothing they have done and because of nothing the other parts have done, there will be racism and resentment :shrug: Yet, when any person (white or black) dares to point this out, they are lambasted as a racist.

Again, such is life.

[HejiraNYC]

In the end, who can blame people in this regard. Black people are routinely told by the govt. and others (mostly the D party) that they are special and deserve an automatic advantage over non-black people because of a 40 year long attempt to right the wrongs of slavery, which ended in 1864. Moreover, the Civil Rights Act (designed to end discrimination) was 40 years ago. In the end, as long as one part of society gets an automatic leg up because of nothing they have done and because of nothing the other parts have done, there will be racism and resentment :shrug: Yet, when any person (white or black) dares to point this out, they are lambasted as a racist.




Well, speaking of ****-stirring... are you implying that racism simply vanished upon enactment of the Civil Rights Act and that blacks are no longer a "suspect class" subject to hostile treatment by society at large? Although I think blacks in America have made great strides over the past few decades, I think that we are far from being a post-racial society, even despite the appointment of an African-American president. It will take generations before we have sorted out fully the wrongdoings and poverty imposed by a racist/segregationist society, and we are still barely a generation into the Civil Rights Era. This is going to take a looong time... probably not within our lifetimes.

[strandinthewind]

^^^

Of course not - racism is alive and well, though not nearly as bad as it was.

All I am saying is that as long as some black kid is given an automatic leg up over some equally or more deserving white kid - racism will be prolonged. Note - racism itself cannot be eradicated by the Civil Rights Act. All the Act was designed to do was give minorities as leg up to right the wrongs of the past. Forty years have now gone by. I say that is enough - mission accomplished as much as it can ever be under such a standard.

I say the FAR better standard is to base the leg up on poverty. That way people who truly need a leg up get it as opposed to a minority getting it based on correcting something that they and the people they are up against had nothing to do with.

Put it this way, in your opinion, when is the goal reached? When will the later generations have sufficiently paid for the awful institution of slavery? When will enough generations have gone by so that black people do not deserve the automatic leg up? Will the system that gives these rights actually work - or does it just perpetuate the stigma and actually prolong racism?

Finally, does it really accomplish these goals when you have two applicants -

1. a white guy from the poorest part of Appalachia whose historically uneducated family has been spit upon for generations

2. a black guy who comes from an upper middle class family with four generation of college degrees.

Who deserves the leg up? The answer is obvious - the poor white guy does because any fault of slavery that may have affected the black family since 1964 has been righted :shrug: Unlike the white guy, the black guy needs no help.

Thus, I say help the poor out and get rid of help based on race. People will feel less resentment this way - thus, lessening race hate.

The govt. cannot eradicate racism. Only people can do that. And, the current system obviously is not working to accomplish that goal after 40 years. So, I say change it to address the current actual problem. Interestingly, under "my" plan, any poor black person is still as protected as under the current plan. My plan just prevents people who do not need help from getting it at the cost of the poor person they are up against.

[strandinthewind]

. . . and we are still barely a generation into the Civil Rights Era . . . .

We are three or four generations into it as generation are generally defined in terms of 10 to 15 years :shrug:

Put it this way - should Obama's children get preferential treatment over the poor white guy I earlier used an an example. Of course, they should not. To assert they should is ridiculous because they do not need it. the poor white guy does.

Thus, I say help should be given to all those who need it and the common denominator is poverty.

[HejiraNYC]

All I am saying is that as long as some black kid is given an automatic leg up over some equally or more deserving white kid - racism will be prolonged. Note - racism itself cannot be eradicated by the Civil Rights Act. All the Act was designed to do was give minorities as leg up to right the wrongs of the past. Forty years have now gone by. I say that is enough - mission accomplished as much as it can ever be under such a standard.

I think what you are referring to is affirmative action vs. the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which basically neutralized discrimination against minorities and women in a number of different areas without addressing the issue of "reparations." As much as I want to agree with you that 40 years is enough time for all of the historical wrongs to be righted, the sad fact is that a disproportionately high number of African American males are in the U.S. penal system, black households are consistently the poorest across the board and blacks are woefully underrepresented at the top tiers of elite schools and at the highest levels of the corporate ladder. While some of these numbers have improved over the years, we are far from seeing true parrity between white vs. AA on so many levels. Until we see the statistics improving, I don't see how we can just simply wash our hands of the past.



I say the FAR better standard is to base the leg up on poverty. That way people who truly need a leg up get it as opposed to a minority getting it based on correcting something that they and the people they are up against had nothing to do with.

What I have always felt, and this may be controversial... but what I have always felt is that if you are a white, able-minded, able-bodied male in the U.S., you have absolutely zero excuse for not being financially successful and/or self-sufficient (unless one chooses, for whatever reason, not to be so). The world is your veritable oyster. I'm not saying that everyone has to pursue wealth for wealth's sake. And I'm not saying that people do not have mitigating circumstances that are above and beyond the color of ones skin. But I don't think white people generally worry about being denied housing or employment because they are white. I don't think white people feel intimidated at a mostly white college campus because they are white. I don't think white people feel like they are profiled by the cops, taxi drivers or shopkeepers. But then again, I'm not white, so I don't know for sure. :shrug: But, in general, I feel a lot less sympathy for a capable white male who struggles vs. a capable black male who struggles- rational or not. Sure, overt racial discrimination is illegal, but there are so, so many gray, insidious areas where ones skin color still does matter in every day society.


Put it this way, in your opinion, when is the goal reached? When will the later generations have sufficiently paid for the awful institution of slavery? When will enough generations have gone by so that black people do not deserve the automatic leg up? Will the system that gives these rights actually work - or does it just perpetuate the stigma and actually prolong racism?

So you are saying that affirmative action is actually creating/prolonging racism? I am not sure if that is a popularly held notion. I certainly don't feel that way.

Regarding the time horizon for "repairing the wrongs," I just don't know. But knowing that a "generation" is typically considered to pass every 25-27 years or so, we are now just in the middle of the second generation, all the while, millions of those oppressed pre-1964 are still alive and still feeling the repercussions of lost opportunities, lack of education, under-employment, etc. It isn't like their children and their children's children will somehow all inherit trust funds and they will be able to pay for ivy league educations with ease. Yes, the numbers of black college graduates and professionals is increasing... but I don't think we're still at the level of mission accomplished.

Finally, does it really accomplish these goals when you have two applicants -

1. a white guy from the poorest part of Appalachia whose historically uneducated family has been spit upon for generations

2. a black guy who comes from an upper middle class family with four generation of college degrees.

Who deserves the leg up? The answer is obvious - the poor white guy does because any fault of slavery that may have affected the black family since 1964 has been righted :shrug: Unlike the white guy, the black guy needs no help.

I think this example is rather extreme, but any sort of entitlement program can be stressed to its limits with unintended consequences. But why eradicate a program that works for the majority just to penalize a few stray outer-limit blips? Yes, on the surface it seems unfair that black guy #2 gets preferential treatment in this case, but then again you don't know what kind of struggles or missed opportunities he had to endure along his educational journey due to his blackness.

[strandinthewind]

What I have always felt, and this may be controversial... but what I have always felt is that if you are a white, able-minded, able-bodied male in the U.S., you have absolutely zero excuse for not being financially successful and/or self-sufficient (unless one chooses, for whatever reason, not to be so). The world is your veritable oyster. I'm not saying that everyone has to pursue wealth for wealth's sake. And I'm not saying that people do not have mitigating circumstances that are above and beyond the color of ones skin. But I don't think white people generally worry about being denied housing or employment because they are white. I don't think white people feel intimidated at a mostly white college campus because they are white. I don't think white people feel like they are profiled by the cops, taxi drivers or shopkeepers. But then again, I'm not white, so I don't know for sure. :shrug: But, in general, I feel a lot less sympathy for a capable white male who struggles vs. a capable black male who struggles- rational or not. Sure, overt racial discrimination is illegal, but there are so, so many gray, insidious areas where ones skin color still does matter in every day society . . . .

I see what you are saying, but I think giving advantage to the poor as a whole as opposed to the black (or other minority) poor the advantage solves this problem with the added benefit of also helping white poor.

Also, I suggest that if you go to the poorer areas of the country, like Appalachia, the white people feel oppressed as well. That oppression come from the rich of all color, shapes, and sizes.

So you are saying that affirmative action is actually creating/prolonging racism? I am not sure if that is a popularly held notion. I certainly don't feel that way . . . .

The current system perpetuates the racism because it tells black people (or other minorities) that they do not have to work as hard to get ahead because you get an automatic break because you are black. That whole notion makes white people hate (resent, etc.) black people on some level. How could it not when they and their kids are losing out. Thus, the perpetuation argument. Put another way, two wrongs do not make a right :shrug: So, I say that until we as a society move away from the whole "this group over that group" mentality, it will only get worse.

I think this example is rather extreme, but any sort of entitlement program can be stressed to its limits with unintended consequences. But why eradicate a program that works for the majority just to penalize a few stray outer-limit blips? Yes, on the surface it seems unfair that black guy #2 gets preferential treatment in this case, but then again you don't know what kind of struggles or missed opportunities he had to endure along his educational journey due to his blackness.

The black person in my example deserves no leg up no matter what their history is. They come from four "generations" of educated people and they have the financial means to get educated, etc. Put another way, AA and the Act have worked for them - they are no longer eligible for the cure. Conversely, the poor white kid from generations of uneducated people in Appalachia, likely received an awful education, if any. They need a leg up.

If the poor white kid does not get the leg up, how is that in any way fair? How does that in any way further the goal of making black people whole again? The answer is it does not. I suggest all it does is let the rich black kid get an undeserved leg up at the cost of denying some poor white kid a means to get out and improve their life. It also serves as an obvious vehicle t0 piss off white people who had nothing to do with slavery. And, these same white people likely were not racist to begin with. But, when they get fukced over like this, they are going to hate black people on some level.

Note - I am in no way saying that racism does not exist, etc. I am just saying that advantage should be given where it is needed, which is to the poor as opposed to the selectively determined race. More people truly deserving of help will get it under my plan and the racial "you vs. me" mentality is obviated :shrug:

As for racism, feeling inferior, etc., that you touched on - the current system does not really do anything to prevent or cure that line of thought. The govt. cannot really do that.

[David]

As for racism, feeling inferior, etc., that you touched on - the current system does not really do anything to prevent or cure that line of thought. The govt. cannot really do that.I support affirmative action for only one minority group.

[strandinthewind]

I support affirmative action for only one minority group.

aging California musicians?
:p

[Jondalar]

Well, speaking of ****-stirring... are you implying that racism simply vanished upon enactment of the Civil Rights Act and that blacks are no longer a "suspect class" subject to hostile treatment by society at large? Although I think blacks in America have made great strides over the past few decades, I think that we are far from being a post-racial society, even despite the appointment of an African-American president. It will take generations before we have sorted out fully the wrongdoings and poverty imposed by a racist/segregationist society, and we are still barely a generation into the Civil Rights Era. This is going to take a looong time... probably not within our lifetimes.

Racism is going to end when the wealth gets spread around enough that people of color can't use racism as an excuse. Right now, I think racism is getting to the point of salem witch craft trials, where people are accused of racism and convicted and punished, but no one actually committed a crime. Race baiting is a form of power.

[nailatixela]

I saw an Asian woman at the Fleetwood Mac philly show. I was a little surprised - simply because the majority of people there are white. Also, I'm only 17 so someone might be surprised to see me at a Fleetwood Mac show. I'm understanding of this since like Asian women, teenagers are not part of Fleetwood Mac's main demographic. And it's cool when the minorities (in terms of a mac show) come to represent. I feel proud, at least, to show that there are young people who like the band too!

[David]

I've heard that Stevie is super popular with Orthodox Jews in the age demographic of 18 to 26.

To them, she is the modern-day Tamar (who was once offered a goat in arrears). It all goes back to a close reading of Genesis.

[jannieC]

I was trying to make friends with one of the security guards (black-female) at a SYW show and the look on her face when Mick did his drum solo was priceless. She was so obviously perplexed- lol.

[strandinthewind]

I was trying to make friends with one of the security guards (black-female) at a SYW show and the look on her face when Mick did his drum solo was priceless. She was so obviously perplexed- lol.

LMAO - she likely was "who is this white fool strutting around like a chicken!" :laugh:

Actually and interestingly, Mick's vesturbation is very tribal in execution. So, what are ya gonna do :cool:

[jannieC]

LMAO - she likely was "who is this white fool strutting around like a chicken!" :laugh:

Actually and interestingly, Mick's vesturbation is very tribal in execution. So, what are ya gonna do :cool:

I absolutely LOVE Michelle Obama's expression. I crack up every time I look at that!:laugh:

[strandinthewind]

I absolutely LOVE Michelle Obama's expression. I crack up every time I look at that!:laugh:

I know - though Hillary's expression is my fav. Alas, a relative oldie but a goodie.

[jannieC]

I know - though Hillary's expression is my fav. Alas, a relative oldie but a goodie.

It's hard not to look at it and giggle. :o

[strandinthewind]

It's hard not to look at it and giggle. :o

I just want to be in the Jeep with them - Cabbage Patching with Joe B. from da PA _ IN DA HOUUUSE :cool:

[carrie721]

I know - though Hillary's expression is my fav. Alas, a relative oldie but a goodie.

new to me. i f*cking love it.

oh, except you hijacked my thread, you white male oppressive bastard.

:lol:

[diane_k]

^ Oh sure, just be sure to point it out when the new girl does it.

~DK

[carrie721]

^ Oh sure, just be sure to point it out when the new girl does it.

~DK

is everyone on the planet PMSing these days, or is it just everyone on the ledge?

:lol:

[diane_k]

^ Not unless I'm two weeks off. This isn't hormonal, just an honest question from an observant bystander. :shrug:

~DK

[carrie721]

^ Not unless I'm two weeks off.

crazier things have happened. my cycles are less predictable than lindsey's. :cool:

This isn't hormonal, just an honest question from an observant bystander. :shrug:

~DK

observation duly noted! i guess i should test the waters out more thoroughly before administering a gentle ribbing (for her pleasure). i should know better than to mess with someone from my own dating pool :rolleyes: :lol:

[diane_k]

crazier things have happened. my cycles are less predictable than lindsey's. :cool:

They make medication for that. I even think that that's one of the benefits of the Acai berry diet! Either that or my spam folder is lying to me. Again.

observation duly noted! i guess i should test the waters out more thoroughly before administering a gentle ribbing (for her pleasure). i should know better than to mess with someone from my own dating pool :rolleyes: :lol:

Well thank GOD! I knew there had to more than one around here!

I am also not racist...just in case I had any silent accusers out there. :lol:

~DK

[carrie721]

They make medication for that. I even think that that's one of the benefits of the Acai berry diet! Either that or my spam folder is lying to me. Again.

my spam folder has betrayed me because someone named willie dewitt recently offered me a massage.

Well thank GOD! I knew there had to more than one around here!

we're few and far between. :cool:

I am also not racist...just in case I had any silent accusers out there. :lol:

~DK

these days, you're a bigot until proven innocent.

[skcin]

I've heard that Stevie is super popular with Orthodox Jews in the age demographic of 18 to 26.

To them, she is the modern-day Tamar (who was once offered a goat in arrears). It all goes back to a close reading of Genesis.

I've heard that too.



Saw Lisa Lampinelli last weekend. :cool: I have no other comment.

[Jondalar]

my spam folder has betrayed me because someone named willie dewitt recently offered me a massage.



we're few and far between. :cool:



these days, you're a bigot until proven innocent.


Problem is no one is ever really proven innocent. Suspicion always lingers.

[skcin]

I think this thread was started to stir some ****.

Seems like any topic that can be deemed 'controversial' is **** stirring . :rolleyes: I think this was a very interesting idea for a thread.

What Cornflake Girl said.


In the end, who can blame people in this regard. Black people are routinely told by the govt. and others (mostly the D party) that they are special and deserve an automatic advantage over non-black people because of a 40 year long attempt to right the wrongs of slavery, which ended in 1864.

When & where are they told that they are special?

We are three or four generations into it as generation are generally defined in terms of 10 to 15 years :shrug:

Put it this way - should Obama's children get preferential treatment over the poor white guy I earlier used an an example. Of course, they should not. To assert they should is ridiculous because they do not need it. the poor white guy does.

Thus, I say help should be given to all those who need it and the common denominator is poverty.

1) I always thoguht a "generation" referred to about 20 years - no?

2) Not all black people who may be eligible to programs like Affirmative Action take advantage of them.

I don't think Affirmative Action is perfect, and I honestly don't know if it should be used anymore at all. However, I never had to drag myself out of the projects & make a new life for myself. :shrug: I had a decent life, a middle-working class upbringing - luck of the draw. Easy for me to say "just do it, just go to school & make something of yourself!"

I
What I have always felt, and this may be controversial... but what I have always felt is that if you are a white, able-minded, able-bodied male in the U.S., you have absolutely zero excuse for not being financially successful and/or self-sufficient (unless one chooses, for whatever reason, not to be so). The world is your veritable oyster. I'm not saying that everyone has to pursue wealth for wealth's sake. And I'm not saying that people do not have mitigating circumstances that are above and beyond the color of ones skin. But I don't think white people generally worry about being denied housing or employment because they are white. I don't think white people feel intimidated at a mostly white college campus because they are white. I don't think white people feel like they are profiled by the cops, taxi drivers or shopkeepers. But then again, I'm not white, so I don't know for sure. :shrug: But, in general, I feel a lot less sympathy for a capable white male who struggles vs. a capable black male who struggles- rational or not. Sure, overt racial discrimination is illegal, but there are so, so many gray, insidious areas where ones skin color still does matter in every day society.


ZERO excuse? :shocked: Are you ****ing kidding me? That's a pretty big assumption to make, that all white males have an automatic advantage over men of any other race in all life circumstances.

Do you think you had an advantage in school because you're Asian? People must have looked at you & assumed you were smart, huh? Do you see an Asian man & wonder why he didn't do as well in school, and why isn't he a doctor or lawyer, he had the advantage of being Asian? I'm seriously asking here.

aging California musicians?
:p

yay for chilid! :blob1:


^ Oh sure, just be sure to point it out when the new girl does it.

~DK

Who are you anyway? :laugh: Where did you come from?

[strandinthewind]

Wiki went on about how the def of generation was changing to a shorter period of time. But, excluding the time periods, it is safe to assume four cycles of educated people (parents children) have passed since the 60's.

In the end, I agree about your projects example - which could still be remedied by basing help on poverty, as opposed to just some races, etc.

[bookie29]

I am a 40 y.o. black male and have been a FM/Stevie fan even before I knew who they were. I remember hearing SYLM, Rhiannon, GYOW, and YMLF as a kid. I also like R&B, Rap, Hip-Hop, Dance, House, and Country music.

I have friends of all races and ages. My Black and Mexican friends ask why I listen to that "white" music. My white friends don't know who FM or Stevie are. I get the old "Stevie? I've never heard of him."

I was at the concert in Chicago this year and there was not many colors represented. My partner, who is Mexican, and I were playing where's Waldo to try and find other Black and Mexican people. Other than myself, I saw two Black women come in and they were in our section. I do this at every concert I go to.

Bottom line is that I don't feel that it is offensive to point out this situation. This is just stating the obvious fact. Most FM fans are White. Most Blacks, Mexicans, etc. and younger people are not into them. Notice I said most, not all. There are exceptions. If someone was pointing out various minorities and saying they shouldn't be there, then I would be offended. Just saying that you saw a rare minority there is no big deal.

Sean

[diane_k]

Who are you anyway? :laugh: Where did you come from?


Who I am is no concern of yours, and if you can't read the location at the top of every one of my posts, well, then I can't be of any further assistance.

~DK

[carrie721]

I am a 40 y.o. black male and have been a FM/Stevie fan even before I knew who they were. I remember hearing SYLM, Rhiannon, GYOW, and YMLF as a kid. I also like R&B, Rap, Hip-Hop, Dance, House, and Country music.

I have friends of all races and ages. My Black and Mexican friends ask why I listen to that "white" music. My white friends don't know who FM or Stevie are. I get the old "Stevie? I've never heard of him."

I was at the concert in Chicago this year and there was not many colors represented. My partner, who is Mexican, and I were playing where's Waldo to try and find other Black and Mexican people. Other than myself, I saw two Black women come in and they were in our section. I do this at every concert I go to.

Bottom line is that I don't feel that it is offensive to point out this situation. This is just stating the obvious fact. Most FM fans are White. Most Blacks, Mexicans, etc. and younger people are not into them. Notice I said most, not all. There are exceptions. If someone was pointing out various minorities and saying they shouldn't be there, then I would be offended. Just saying that you saw a rare minority there is no big deal.

Sean

thank you for your input! i really appreciate it. :wavey:

[skcin]

I am a 40 y.o. black male and have been a FM/Stevie fan even before I knew who they were. I remember hearing SYLM, Rhiannon, GYOW, and YMLF as a kid. I also like R&B, Rap, Hip-Hop, Dance, House, and Country music.

I have friends of all races and ages. My Black and Mexican friends ask why I listen to that "white" music. My white friends don't know who FM or Stevie are. I get the old "Stevie? I've never heard of him."

I was at the concert in Chicago this year and there was not many colors represented. My partner, who is Mexican, and I were playing where's Waldo to try and find other Black and Mexican people. Other than myself, I saw two Black women come in and they were in our section. I do this at every concert I go to.

Bottom line is that I don't feel that it is offensive to point out this situation. This is just stating the obvious fact. Most FM fans are White. Most Blacks, Mexicans, etc. and younger people are not into them. Notice I said most, not all. There are exceptions. If someone was pointing out various minorities and saying they shouldn't be there, then I would be offended. Just saying that you saw a rare minority there is no big deal.

Sean

I remember you. :nod: Thanks for posting. And your "where's waldo" is hilarious.

Who I am is no concern of yours, and if you can't read the location at the top of every one of my posts, well, then I can't be of any further assistance.

~DK

Wow. I wasn't being literal, asking where you're from. :shrug: Just curious when you came on the board & how you found us. Never mind.

[gold_dust]

Racism is going to end when the wealth gets spread around enough that people of color can't use racism as an excuse. Right now, I think racism is getting to the point of salem witch craft trials, where people are accused of racism and convicted and punished, but no one actually committed a crime. Race baiting is a form of power.

It's interesting that you say this.

Yet, in another thread, you basically dismissed my opinon because I'm from the UK. You said: 'I like many other people don't give a SHAT about what the UK thinks.'

[rubytuesday]

It's interesting that you say this.

Yet, in another thread, you basically dismissed my opinon because I'm from the UK. You said: 'I like many other people don't give a SHAT about what the UK thinks.'Someone said that? I'll punch them smack in the face.

[ontheEdgeof17]

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[gold_dust]

Someone said that? I'll punch them smack in the face.

Those exact words. And from that person I quoted. They said it on the why is Stevie bigger than her peers thread.

[rubytuesday]

Those exact words. And from that person I quoted. They said it on the why is Stevie bigger than her peers thread.Ew I just read it. What an arsehole, maybe we don't give a **** what the US thinks. Fleetwood Mac is a british band ultimately. As someone in that thread mentioned that considering the population difference the UK has provided a disproportionate amount to rock and pop for the world so briinging nations into it is kind of stupid. Just plain racist really.

[LiamMcConville]

Ew I just read it. What an arsehole, maybe we don't give a **** what the US thinks. Fleetwood Mac is a british band ultimately. As someone in that thread mentioned that considering the population difference the UK has provided a disproportionate amount to rock and pop for the world so briinging nations into it is kind of stupid. Just plain racist really.

Jondalar, (who posted the original remark) is a retard. Don't worry to much about what he says. Ever. :shrug:

[LukeA]

Jondalar, (who posted the original remark) is a retard. Don't worry to much about what he says. Ever. :shrug:

QFT. Yep.

[carrie721]

Jondalar, (who posted the original remark) is a retard. Don't worry to much about what he says. Ever. :shrug:

i think i just snarfed so hard i lost a sinus.

[David]

i think i just snarfed so hard i lost a sinus.
Carrie!!!!!

Good Lord!

[carrie721]

Carrie!!!!!

Good Lord!

David!!!!!

[Cornflake Girl]

Jondalar, (who posted the original remark) is a retard. Don't worry to much about what he says. Ever. :shrug:


:thumbsup:

Hah! Brilliant.

[rubytuesday]

Jondalar, (who posted the original remark) is a retard. Don't worry to much about what he says. Ever. :shrug:

lol ok good. Cause if that's normal talk here then racism must be accepted. Good to know they are just a weirdo one.

[skcin]

Carrie!!!!!

Good Lord!

Is Carrie your God now? What's going on here?

[David]

Is Carrie your God now? What's going on here?Carrie has always been my favorite. See my very old posts. It's only when she started getting close to Tower that I fell back like a shrinking violet.

[carrie721]

Carrie has always been my favorite. See my very old posts. It's only when she started getting close to Tower that I fell back like a shrinking violet.

LOL. i was never close with tower.

i do remember that old thread you started for me. it's one of the only reasons i stuck around.