Greenie live in February

[Popmuseum]

peter green is going to play at spirit of 66 on feb, the 27th in verviers, belgium

*) CONCERTS AGENDA, February 2009: PETER GREEN (uk) Ex John Mayall Bluesbreakers, Fleetwood Mack, etc.. Une legende vivante ...
http://www.spiritof66.be/agendouble.php?dateaffichage=1234306800

*) http://petergreen.oyla.de/cgi-bin/hpm_homepage.cgi

[kowk]

peter green is going to play at spirit of 66 on feb, the 27th in verviers, belgium

*) CONCERTS AGENDA, February 2009: PETER GREEN (uk) Ex John Mayall Bluesbreakers, Fleetwood Mack, etc.. Une legende vivante ...
http://www.spiritof66.be/agendouble.php?dateaffichage=1234306800

*) http://petergreen.oyla.de/cgi-bin/hpm_homepage.cgi

It would be great to be there. I will be waiting impatiently for a report from this gig :-). Maybe Greeny is going to perform more?
Regards
Krzysztof

[Popmuseum]

Hi,

how come that "Greenie" and "Greeny" get mixed up in this forum all of the time?

I've been told that Peter Green is called "Greenie" but his kind of guitar style is called "greeny".

At least Mick Fleetwood (who should have known best) calls Peter Green "Greenie".

Is there any difference?

asks,
Popmuseum

[doodyhead]

Dear Popmuseum,

since birth I have been called vinnie (amongst other things)

People who write to me write vinnie or vinny with their discretion. I was told once that I should not call myself vinnie as in english it is a diminutive of Vincent (my proper name).
English as a language is crazy. I personally don't see the difference.

I think you can use either one as Peter most likely doe not refer to himself ad either one.


vinnie c

and doodiehead

[Popmuseum]

Dear Popmuseum, English as a language is crazy. I personally don't see the difference. I think you can use either one as Peter most likely do not refer to himself ad either one. vinnie c and doodiehead

Dear vinnie c / doodiehead,

thank you very much. I like Greenie more than Greeny - it has a better look. :)

Popmuseum

[Ms Moose]

Dear vinnie c / doodiehead,

thank you very much. I like Greenie more than Greeny - it has a better look. :)

Popmuseum

I think doodyhead is right. Greeny/nie's family and friends probably calls him..... "Pete".

I don't like either Greeny or Greenie because it always reminds me of an english commercial (I think it was) - "The Jolly Green Giant" - that was supposed to make children eat more vegetables!

Anyway - it is great news that he will appear in public again, but anxiously I can't help wondering: who else with be there with him?

Ms Moose(y)

[dansven]

Thank you so much for posting, Popmuseum!!! :D
Somebody got to record this!!!

Reminds me of how great he looked at those new videos at MOJO and that other place.
I too wonder who's gonna be there with him. Probably that guy from those videos on rhythm guitar. Perhaps brother Michael??
Anyway, I hope he gets a good band with him, hopefully some sympathetic players who can support him rather than drown him. I'd rather take a verse of muted/silent Greeny while he gains new inspiration, than an other flashy lead guitarist who steps up as soon as Peter calms down a bit! :nod:

I really hope there'll be more gigs, and that he gets a solid and stable band. He mentioned in a recent interview that he's been jamming with some musicians from Spain. It could be them...?

[snoot]

Dear Popmuseum,

since birth I have been called vinnie (amongst other things)

People who write to me write vinnie or vinny with their discretion. I was told once that I should not call myself vinnie as in english it is a diminutive of Vincent (my proper name).
English as a language is crazy. I personally don't see the difference.

I think you can use either one as Peter most likely doe not refer to himself ad either one.


vinnie c

and doodiehead

Perfect scenario, perfect answer.

doodiehead, I like that. :thumbsup:

[kowk]

Hi,

how come that "Greenie" and "Greeny" get mixed up in this forum all of the time?

I've been told that Peter Green is called "Greenie" but his kind of guitar style is called "greeny".

At least Mick Fleetwood (who should have known best) calls Peter Green "Greenie".

Is there any difference?

asks,
Popmuseum

Hi,
I'm not fluent in English :). I think both forms are correct.
But I'm going to use "Greeny" because I've been accustomed to it since Gary Moore "Blues for Greeny" tribute album ;)
Regards
Krzysztof

[snoot]

Anyway - it is great news that he will appear in public again, but anxiously I can't help wondering: who else with be there with him?


The bigger question remains: will he be up to the task, or just taking up space on stage? It's sad to see Peter reduced to flotsam, which is basically what he appeared to be at quite a few stage performances in recent years. The problem is, you never know just what you're going to get with PG at any given time, especially this late in the game. All we can hope is that he's enjoying himself, which is important, but sometimes it's almost painful to watch. You can't help but come away wondering if others are manipulating him, for any number of suspect reasons.

[dansven]

The bigger question remains: will he be up to the task, "Task"?!? YOUR EXPECTATIONS?!?!? You know what?? He's always been up to it!!:mad:

All we can hope is that he's enjoying himself, which is important, but sometimes it's almost painful to watch. Then don't watch it!! Nobody's trying to force you into something you don't want!!

We've been "without" Peter now for the most part since 2003. Nigel might have played too many solos and Peter didn't write any songs for the Splinter Group, but at least it was a solid band where Peter could blossom and enjoy himself!

Now finally it seems like something is happening again. And then of course somebody has to write such stupid bull****! :eek:
The new videos shows a man enjoying himself! You can call it "manipulation" or "encouragement" but as long as he enjoys playing, then that should be enough for me and you and everybody to keep quiet!

just taking up space on stage? It's sad to see Peter reduced to flotsam,
These comments are more evil than the people you suspect are manipulating Peter Green!!! Disrespectful! :mad::mad::mad:

[snoot]

"Task"?!? YOUR EXPECTATIONS?!?!? You know what?? He's always been up to it!!:mad:

Then don't watch it!! Nobody's trying to force you into something you don't want!!

We've been "without" Peter now for the most part since 2003. Nigel might have played too many solos and Peter didn't write any songs for the Splinter Group, but at least it was a solid band where Peter could blossom and enjoy himself!

Now finally it seems like something is happening again. And then of course somebody has to write such stupid bull****! :eek:
The new videos shows a man enjoying himself! You can call it "manipulation" or "encouragement" but as long as he enjoys playing, then that should be enough for me and you and everybody to keep quiet!


These comments are more evil than the people you suspect are manipulating Peter Green!!! Disrespectful! :mad::mad::mad:

Geez dude, what's up with you? *Reality check*

[Wouter Vuijk]

Hi,
I'm not fluent in English :). I think both forms are correct.
But I'm going to use "Greeny" because I've been accustomed to it since Gary Moore "Blues for Greeny" tribute album ;)
Regards
Krzysztof

For me it's Greeny because that was the title of his instrumental recording with John Mayall during Bluesbreaker days, way back in the sixties (or is it sixtys? :laugh:).

[JonsonP]

The bigger question remains: will he be up to the task

The problem is, you never know just what you're going to get with PG at any given time.

I can definitely see where Snoot is coming from with this.

You know what?? He's always been up to it

We've been "without" Peter now for the most part since 2003.

but as long as he enjoys playing, then that should be enough

But also completely agree with this, and Nigel certainly played too many solo's!

Surely its easy enough to see both points here? :thumbsup:

[dino]

I can definitely see where Snoot is coming from with this.



But also completely agree with this, and Nigel certainly played too many solo's!

Surely its easy enough to see both points here? :thumbsup:

Haha, you go, dansven!
At this point in his career Peter is entitled to do whatever he wants.
Problem is, he always has to contend with peoples' expectations ("will he be up to the task" - Snoot!) and the "guitar hero" role, something he is obviously no longer interested in doing. He's not the same player as in the 60's, and that's not the style of playing he's into now. Would be nice to see him do some experimental stuff, not just the same old BMW again.

[doodyhead]

Due to the experiences of my youth, I have known several people who never made it back from recreational drugs. A few led to suicide, a few to totally wacked out individuals. Peter survived non prescription drugs, a few stays in the asylum, electroshock therapy. potential bi polar disorder. He is probably still on some kind of medication. I have heard that the stuff they treat you with might leave you with liver damage, diabetes and several other health problems he did not have before.

The incredible thing is he is still interested in making music, and even more, is interested in entertaining others. It's like seeing your favorite athlete coming back from a would be career ending injury.

This is a GIFT


I just hope somebody records it

doodyhead, melandvinnie

[JonsonP]

Without wishing to receive a telling off like poor Snoot, dare I question whether PG is really that interested in ‘professionally’ entertaining others?:shocked:

Sure he can’t seem to help being interested in making music (which is amazing considering!), but from most of his interviews he often wonders why anyone would even bother to come and see him play.:confused:
So with that in mind why would he want to entertain???

I suppose this is just part of the self-deprecation confusing aspect of PG – how can someone so greatly talented and admired not fully recognise it?!

:)

[dino]

That's very true, doodyhead. Your comments always make a lot of sense.

[snoot]

Well guys let's just keep in mind I've seen Peter Green perform live and at his peak with PGFM, on a number of occasions. Not all that many here can say that. I have also seen Jeremy and Danny likewise in their heyday, again on a good number of occasions. The last time I saw Pete perform live, many years after leaving FM, he stood on the stage in a whirlwind of confusion, barely finding a few notes to get out. About halfway through the set, he wandered off and exited the stage never to return, while his band finished the set. Though he has had moments during his recovery years where flashes of the old PG rise to the surface, for the most part they're few and far between. I think this is part of Green's own ambivalence about being up on stage at this point, beyond his self-deprecating demeanor. Revisit my earlier comments and see why they stand.

No offense was aimed at Peter in what I wrote. He's the man behind the Mac, and I have always felt no one feels worse about what became of Danny Kirwan than him, which is but more points to his credit. Passion aside, Dansven needs to recognize that while we may all be hip to Green's longstanding condition, others visiting the Ledge and reading our comments may not be. The guest percentages versus members at any given time often hovers around 4 to 1 (and sometimes greater), so most comments here reach a larger audience than just those who make up the membership cadre.

As I see it, if peeps are forking over good money for concert performances (keeping in mind it's a far cry from the $3.00-5.00 as it was in the PGFM days of yesteryear), best they have some idea what they're getting into. Also a cursory look at my previous posts would show I am anything but a troll, and probably deserve more consideration than a reactionary tongue-lashing that includes an "evil" descriptor. If you had simply PMed me your feelings or relayed what you feel was inappropriate in what I posted, I might have gone back and edited - or even deleted - my post. I enjoy good discussion and lively debate, but I don't come here to crush people's feelings on a whim. If I am sometimes blunt in what I write, it's just that there is often no better way to state certain things.

I appreciate Vinnie's comments, but unfortunately there is a little more to the picture than that alone in PG's regard. However in the spirit of optimism and renewal, a GIFT it surely is considering hope springs eternal.

[snoot]

JonsonP you appear to be something of a born diplomat, like our friend the vinniemeister. Since you're just aboard, you might want to visit the early Mac section here, if you are into the early and mid era history of the band. I realize some Greenies are not, being blues purists to the bone, but there's a lot of informative reading to be had there by those who know the Mac is far more than the pop machine it eventually became.

[dansven]

Hi Snoot!
Well guys let's just keep in mind I've seen Peter Green perform live and at his peak with PGFM, on a number of occasions. Not all that many here can say that.
Yeah, few people here saw Peter with FMac. Still, most of us got to "know" him from that era ... that's how we discovered Peter first: Black Magic Woman, Albatross, Oh Well...

The "Peter Green" we first knew was the young guitar hero. But as mentioned by others here, we know that he is not that kind of player today. He has developed an entirely new approach to playing .. a new style of lead guitar. And people here appreachiate what he's doing now. He has no interest in being a guitar hero ... there is no "task" to be up to if you realise that. In spite of (or because of) his illness, he has developed. (while other "guitar heroes" sound like lame copies of themselves from the 60s ... but let's not get into that one again..)


Passion aside, Dansven needs to recognize that while we may all be hip to Green's longstanding condition, others visiting the Ledge and reading our comments may not be. The guest percentages versus members at any given time often hovers around 4 to 1 (and sometimes greater), so most comments here reach a larger audience than just those who make up the membership cadre.
:confused: Why write such a post just because some "bad showbiz dudes" check the Ledge now and then...
Btw, Peter lives in 2009 like the rest of us .. and he probably got his own laptop too! His family and relatives are visiting the Ledge.

No offense was aimed at Peter in what I wrote.
Also a cursory look at my previous posts would show I am anything but a troll, and probably deserve more consideration than a reactionary tongue-lashing that includes an "evil" descriptor.
Ok, I'm sure you're no troll. :) But really, what did you expect?? Can't you see that calling Peter Green "flotsam" would cause reactions??? Calling anybody "flotsam"?? This is after all a "Peter Green Forum"?!?! He wasn't "taking up space on stage" with the Splinter Group at all.

[snoot]

Hey Daniel

Well my choice of words simply reflect what I have witnessed on stage, and how I've felt (and still feel) about it. Perhaps I should have used another word instead of flotsam (fair enough), but I don't know if there really is a more accurate one. Do keep in mind I also stated, as JonsonP picked up on, that the larger problem remains
=> that you never know just what you're going to get with PG at any given time. There is a +/- at work here all at once.

"As long as he enjoys playing, then that should be enough" is a sensible sentiment, but 1) from what I've witnessed, I'm not always sure that is the case - and 2) there is nothing wrong with publicizing the fact that "what you see is what you get" with PG these days. And that varies widely, lest there be any unsuspecting surprises on the part of would-be concert-goers. Even in the studio, it's difficult to tell where Snowy or Nigel or brother Mick (et al) end, and Pete begins. You know the bit.

Why write such a post just because some "bad showbiz dudes" check the Ledge now and then...

No that's not what I meant. I was simply referring to anyone who might be lurking or visiting the Ledge as a (non-signed-in) "guest." No "good guy" or "bad guy" connotations are implied at all. Keep in mind our posts are spidered and indexed into various search engines, including the mother of them all Google. Lots of folks end up reading these comments without ever having set foot directly at the forum.

As for "taking up space on stage," there has been just this at times during his comeback career. I can't speak for how often, but when it occurs, it's almost painful to witness. Again, this is what I meant when I stated that "what you see is what you get with PG these days" = YMMV. But one thing I think we all can agree on, if Peter really has his heart and mind into this concert or any touring that may follow, I will be the first one to say POWER TO HIM and HALLELUIAH! It's just that even in this realm, I'm not quite sure. There's a lot of diverse forces at play here, and there not all Peter's exclusively.

Now if you want a little more fun and angst, try visit this thread. Not sure if you happened upon it yet, but we had a great time mashing on that one, even if it went well beyond a discussion of PG's blues.

Interesting Read
http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showthread.php?t=38213

Jb

[slipkid]

I just saw that documentary on Roky Erickson "You're Gonna Miss Me" last week.
For those that don't know who I'm talking about, Roky was a member of the psychedelic band the 13th Floor Elevators from Austin TX. They migrated to the San Francisco scene in the mid 60's and became one of the favorite underground bands. Roky is credited to have coined the term "Psychedelic Rock", as well as having a distinct singing voice.

Apparently Roky liked LSD very much. He claims to have taken the drug 300 times before he was arrested by Austin's finest for the possession of one marijuana joint. That put him in the Texas mental institution for the criminally insane for three years. According to doctors, much like Peter Green, Erickson was diagnosed with schizophrenia. After his stint in the institution he made a comeback in the '70s with his alien music before finally retiring in 1987. It's ironic that Daniel Johnston was at his peak in the Austin music scene around that time. (he's another
musician with mental issues) According to Wikipedia, Erickson has made a comeback too. hmm:o


I think the footage of Roky today would now be ten years old, but it's very disturbing to watch. All he wanted to do was turn on devices that made constant noise while watching the cartoon network. Not to mention his mother wasn't helping his cause by keeping him off medication. I also noticed his mother wanted to exploit the documentary for her own personal gain as a so-called singer/dancer.


Anyway, my long winded point is that from what I've seen in the recent Green documentary Man of the World, Green appears coherent and articulate. He can also still play the guitar. The fact that he's playing in public again no matter what the circumstances should be seen a blessing, and should be appreciated.

[snoot]

Roky is credited to have coined the term "Psychedelic Rock", as well as having a distinct singing voice.

If this is indeed true, I never heard it before. Interesting.

Apparently Roky liked LSD very much. He claims to have taken the drug 300 times ...

According to doctors, much like Peter Green, Erickson was diagnosed with schizophrenia.

Well the sad part is one will never really know if these conditions were 1) dormant all along, or 2) brought to the surface directly by drug (particularly hallucinogenic) abuse, or 3) were created by it. Those that know of Peter's remarkable drive, confidence and ambition early on would find it difficult to believe that schizophrenia was riding shotgun all along, and may be more inclined to believe that repeated LSD use (a la "one toke over the line") was more likely the cause. Unfortunately all it takes with acid is one bad dose, even if this is sometimes used as a convenient "out" to mask a larger appetite for extended indulgence (and/or self destruction).

But dice it any way you like, sustained drug abuse almost always leads to mental deterioration, often permanent. It's a high price to pay for the ghost of creativity, or for those whose more innocent experiments run out of control. And like everything else in this often random world (and as Vinnie noted earlier), some are lucky to pull through when the day is done, while others don't. Some only make it halfway, caught in a confusing, murky fog or perennial in-and-out condition. Psychedelia refers to more than just spacey, progressive music; it also includes hallucinations, changes of perception, and altered states of mind, which was all the rage during that wild era.

Anyway, my long winded point is that from what I've seen in the recent Green documentary Man of the World, Green appears coherent and articulate. He can also still play the guitar. The fact that he's playing in public again no matter what the circumstances should be seen a blessing, and should be appreciated.

Not long winded at all. Green can be coherent and articulate, other times it's not so evident. This has been the cross he bears ever since those heady years with the Mac -- in Peter's case, the ultimate price for fame, doubt, drugs and burnout. Reminiscent of what Danny Kirwan relayed in a rare interview years ago, wondering if perhaps the blues weren’t too powerful for a person such as he. The flame burned too bright, and needed extinguishing, as has been stated.

Listen to Bad Company's Shooting Star and tell me it isn't apropos, for many of our musical heroes -- and the era at large.

Edit: Paul Rodgers wrote that song as a pointed warning to people in the music industry, after witnessing what became of folks like Brian Jones, Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Jim Morrison and Alan “Blind Owl” Wilson - all dead within approximately a year of the time Peter went south, and all victims of drug addictions and/or overdoses.

[dino]

Snoot, when did this occur:?
" The last time I saw Pete perform live, many years after leaving FM, he stood on the stage in a whirlwind of confusion, barely finding a few notes to get out. About halfway through the set, he wandered off and exited the stage never to return, while his band finished the set. "

It must have been during the Kolors era, early-mid 80's, right? Peter was very ill then. I'm just curious.

I think we all have to agree to disagree about this stuff. I can see Snoot's point too. Still, if there are old 60's fans who haven't picked up on what Peter's been through since 1970 they deserve a rough deal/defied expectations/new music. Did they go into a coma and wake up 40 years later?

[JonsonP]

Though he has had moments during his recovery years where flashes of the old PG rise to the surface.

Although there are many moments where PG has flashes of just simply playing very well, with plenty of hints of both the old FM days and PVK era days.
And this is certainly true - He has no interest in being a guitar hero ... there is no "task" to be up to if you realise that. :nod:

With PG more than most, the frame of mind he’s in, the songs, venue, atmosphere, musicians he’s with, instruments he plays etc all tend to play a huge role in determining what your likely to get.

But I’d guess that for many of us PG enjoying himself and playing in ‘any’ style is more than enough! :]

[absinthe_boy]

I think the person who asked Snoot when he last saw PG perform has asked a vital question.

OK I admit outside of videos and audio recordings I have not "seen" PG perform...I was supposed to see a concert in the late days of the Spliter Group but my mate forgot to buy tickets...

Anyway...from what I can ascertain, Peter certainly did appear lost on stage in the 1980's, towards the end of his "first comeback". There's little doubt that often he didn't really want to be there. There are plenty of accounts and a few tapes of him that lend credence to the idea that he was 'wheeled on stage' because of his name.

However I have never seen any footage or heard any recordings from the Spliter Group days when he seems that bad. Even from the earliest days circa 1995, Spliter Group was a professional band and sounded professional. Peter doesn't always come to the fore but he's there, and even when he is just noodling, I'd rather hear Peter's inventive noodling than some "guitar hero" playing 100 notes when 5 will do.

How many of you have watched the "Hard Road" BBC documentary which follows the run up to the first couple of Splinter Group concerts? He's in good form in the interviews, but is quiet on stage...but still playing cleanly. ??

As for his attitude, he seems to be a very humble man who finds it hard to believe that many people really think he's a great musician. That's why he isn't confident on stage, he's really not sure there is anything concrete to live up to. Don't we all, from time to time, worry that we are frauds? Most artistic people seem to anyway, musicians, writers, designers...all worry that their work which is hailed as great will one day be cut down as mediocre by critics. Peter probably doesn't feel his playing or writing were/are truly great because it came/comes naturally to him. Its a gift, he didn't sweat tears to write Albatross or BMW...or to play the solos on Oh Well...so he wonders if it really is great after all?

Every interview I have seen with PG from 1996 onwards shows him coherant...not like that early 90's Mojo interview where he talked about zombying around all day because his medication left him too tired even to set up a record player. Sure, on the Spliter Group DVD he seems less than enthusiastic...but he's coherant, he makes sense...he's clearly with it. He'd just probably rather be watching TV or practicing some noodling on one of his 96 guitars.

Anyway thos are my thoughts.

[JonsonP]

Well said & I agree with all this, especially this part - I'd rather hear Peter's inventive noodling than some "guitar hero" playing 100 notes when 5 will do.
Like drowning out PG's more subtle moments with a blaze of mediocre harsh playing... - Often thought I'd ideally like to remix some of those SG recordings!:lol:

[mzero]

I think the person who asked Snoot when he last saw PG perform has asked a vital question.

OK I admit outside of videos and audio recordings I have not "seen" PG perform...I was supposed to see a concert in the late days of the Spliter Group but my mate forgot to buy tickets...

Anyway...from what I can ascertain, Peter certainly did appear lost on stage in the 1980's, towards the end of his "first comeback". There's little doubt that often he didn't really want to be there. There are plenty of accounts and a few tapes of him that lend credence to the idea that he was 'wheeled on stage' because of his name.

However I have never seen any footage or heard any recordings from the Spliter Group days when he seems that bad. Even from the earliest days circa 1995, Spliter Group was a professional band and sounded professional. Peter doesn't always come to the fore but he's there, and even when he is just noodling, I'd rather hear Peter's inventive noodling than some "guitar hero" playing 100 notes when 5 will do.

How many of you have watched the "Hard Road" BBC documentary which follows the run up to the first couple of Splinter Group concerts? He's in good form in the interviews, but is quiet on stage...but still playing cleanly. ??

As for his attitude, he seems to be a very humble man who finds it hard to believe that many people really think he's a great musician. That's why he isn't confident on stage, he's really not sure there is anything concrete to live up to. Don't we all, from time to time, worry that we are frauds? Most artistic people seem to anyway, musicians, writers, designers...all worry that their work which is hailed as great will one day be cut down as mediocre by critics. Peter probably doesn't feel his playing or writing were/are truly great because it came/comes naturally to him. Its a gift, he didn't sweat tears to write Albatross or BMW...or to play the solos on Oh Well...so he wonders if it really is great after all?

Every interview I have seen with PG from 1996 onwards shows him coherant...not like that early 90's Mojo interview where he talked about zombying around all day because his medication left him too tired even to set up a record player. Sure, on the Spliter Group DVD he seems less than enthusiastic...but he's coherant, he makes sense...he's clearly with it. He'd just probably rather be watching TV or practicing some noodling on one of his 96 guitars.

Anyway thos are my thoughts.

ab! welcome to the ledge (same to jonsonp). i couldn't have said it better and i come down on your and vinnie's side on this.

the splinter group was a gift as is peter's upcoming performance. i believe that pete knows well where his talent stands relative to other players, both 'in his prime' and now. he's got a lot of pride and high standards. he doesn't rate himself as highly as we do and he doesn't play as well as he'd like always. given his health its a damn miracle he's playing at all.

but his health aside, i saw the splinter group twice in the us. pete was very good both times. played the supernatural better than the record. same for the stumble. the fleetwood mac stuff he was much less interested in recreating. i have no doubt that he could recreate it if he so desired - he'd regained the technical ability in the sg days- but lacks desire and inspiration to do it.

i know i'm alone in this but in the splinter group days and now, i'd much rather hear pete play new material and covers rather than the hits. its what he'd rather do, all his interesting new solos and fills come in that context anyway. zero

[Popmuseum]

Anyway - it is great news that he will appear in public again, but anxiously I can't help wondering: who else with be there with him?

Here's the band Greenie plays with:

Peter Green & Band:
Peter Green - lead guitar / vocals
Mike Dodd - rhythm guitar / vocals
Geraint Watkins - piano/organ/ vocals
Matt Radford - double bass
Andrew Flude - drums / backing vocals

Geraint Watkins:
Played with Macca, Knopfler, Nick Lowe, Rory Gallagher, Dr. Feelgood, The Fabulous Thunderbirds, Carl Perkins, Van Morrison, Bill Wyman, Dave Edmunds and Shakin Stevens.
Last solo studio album: In A Bad Mood (2008).
http://www.myspace.com/geraintwatkins

Matt Radford:
Played with Nick Lowe together with Geraint Watkins.

I guess these will do more than backing vocals .. probably sing a few of their own songs.

Peter Green & Band are going to play at the Paradiso (Amsterdam) on 21. February 2009 (Saturday) too.
Info: http://www.lastfm.de/event/889189

Peter Green naar Nederland : 21 feb. 2009 Amsterdam + 22 feb. 2009 Tilburg
http://www.bluesmagazine.nl/peter-green-februari-2009-paradiso-amsterdam-013-tilburg

[dansven]

Well my choice of words simply reflect what I have witnessed on stage, and how I've felt (and still feel) about it.
Do you remember when Peter walked off? It must have been in the 80s, right? Not with the Splinter Group?

Even in the studio, it's difficult to tell where Snowy or Nigel or brother Mick (et al) end, and Pete begins.
Well, when it comes to guitar solos I've never had any trouble spotting Peter .. the only exception being a couple of tracks on "In The Skies". On the rest of the 80s albums it's mainly Peter on lead. With the Splinter Group it was easy, because Peter and Nigel had very different styles. If you go waaaay back on this forum there are threads where we "solve" the guitar issues of the SG records, and I'd say we are 99.9 percent correct ;)

No that's not what I meant. I was simply referring to anyone who might be lurking or visiting the Ledge as a (non-signed-in) "guest." No "good guy" or "bad guy" connotations are implied at all. Keep in mind our posts are spidered and indexed into various search engines, including the mother of them all Google. Lots of folks end up reading these comments without ever having set foot directly at the forum.
Yes, thanks for clearing this up. I wasn't sure what you meant.

Now if you want a little more fun and angst, try visit this thread. Not sure if you happened upon it yet, but we had a great time mashing on that one, even if it went well beyond a discussion of PG's blues.

Interesting Read
http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showthread.php?t=38213
Haha, thanks. You know, I did read you guys at the time, but I never had the time to join! :D

[snoot]

Everyone who contributed to this thread has made at least one good point, even if they're not all in perfect agreement. After all, there's only so much we know.

The last time I saw PG in person was during the early 80's, so yes it has been a while. Saw him twice during that time (and yes I am aware of Pete's relapse shortly thereafter). Each time it damn near ripped my heart out. Not because I didn't know the storyline, or because I set my expectations too high. It's just I couldn't put the most basic points together, or tell if Peter even wanted to be there. This didn't make me think less of the man, as he had already achieved icon status, something most artists can only dream of. But it did leave me with a lot more questions than answers, starting with: was he was doing this for others, or were others were doing this for him?

I think there is a general consensus that Greenie did considerably better later, and may still be doing pretty good as we speak. I've seen selected video clips that seem to bear this out. If he is enjoying himself, then few things matter more, as has been stated. But even into the nineties, I've seen footage and read interviews where he doesn't seem to be fully in prime time. Maybe that, weighed against what I witnessed earlier, helps create the end image that I'm no longer certain what to expect (aka WYSIWYG). Peter does have a lot of pride; after all, he made his name as a trailblazer and top notch blues guitarist. But I'd be a lot more comfortable knowing he isn't being used or played, and this suspicion was compounded when I saw PG walk away from the stage but once again in recent years after many things seemed to be going his way. Only this time, it wasn't exit stage left as before, but back into retirement.

Whether this was from burnout, or a lack of motivation, or his medication(s) getting in the way, I'm not sure. But even with his resurgence in the Splinter Group, the fact that that unit released nine albums in less than that many years sort of hints of a money grab to me. And if there is one thing we ALL know, Peter isn't into green manalishi! I don't mean to cast aspersions recklessly, as those closest around him have also clearly helped him. In fairness, I suppose this remains a two way street in a number of ways, and any of those profiting off of his name and talent at this point may deem it to be perfectly fair and justifiable, since they comprise his inner circle and support arm, and do what they can to keep him in good stead. C'est la vie.

As for his newfangled style, I agree with many here that Peter has always understood, clearer and more poignantly than most, that less is often more. Then again, this same approach goes back to his Mayall and Mac days too, though things often ramped to more fiery levels in those supercharged days. That's not to say I don't appreciate the riff graffiti of Alvin Lee, or the clear-as-bell tones of Eric Johnson, or the acoustic fretwork of Tommy Emmanuel, or the lit fuse of Stevie Ray Vaughan now and again. But there is also clearly a time and place for the tasteful paucity of a Peter Green, or syncopated phrasing of a Harvey Mandel. In that regard, to each their own as it's all good.

[snoot]

Well, when it comes to guitar solos I've never had any trouble spotting Peter .. the only exception being a couple of tracks on "In The Skies". On the rest of the 80s albums it's mainly Peter on lead. With the Splinter Group it was easy, because Peter and Nigel had very different styles. If you go waaaay back on this forum there are threads where we "solve" the guitar issues of the SG records, and I'd say we are 99.9 percent correct ;)

I'm not so sure about those "solvings" my friend. I'm 99.9 percent certain you and others may be fooling yourselves with such clarity. Snowy and Nigel have both mastered the art of imitation, it's been part of their jobs. That trump card can be pulled out as needed. I won't try to debate on just how much of PG you're hearing at any given time in the post Mac recordings, but trust me it's not always as black and white as it may seem, and far from a duckshoot to decipher. Those who think it is are into wishful thinking. The same can be said for Danny Kirwan years earlier, who possessed the talent to trade licks with - and imitate in many ways - Pete at the end. Did you see the reaction I got when I parlayed that notion in an earlier thread here? There are folks who still think that the lion's share of what they're hearing on Then Play On is PG, when in fact it isn't.

I realize many don't appreciate or understand how good Danny had gotten by the end, since he has traditionally been relegated to taking up space in Peter's shadow, with both the public at large and per many music critics. He first took to Green as something of a mentor, but also brought a prodigious arsenal of his own to the table. As time went on, Danny enjoyed getting in Peter's face at times, his head really, so there was part intimidation, part rivalry, part compliment and part admiration going on all at once. The two came to rely on each other, hinged in a competitive framing, but it brought out the best in each. Some have tried to portray DK's role as being that of a convenient foil, but it was far more than that, and far closer to a push-n-pull partnership. When PG went down, part of DK went with him. That match made in heaven went the way of the inferno instead.

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb51/starz75/Images/riffs.jpg

[doodyhead]

I, for one have no trouble telling peter and danny apart. even in their trade-offs in like it this way. Snowy was a harder one as snowy had a much more mikly touch and a more similar player. With Nigel, I am sorry to say that even on his best days, he ain't got it.

The only time I was seriously confused about Peter was, :
1 on the In the Skies because I refused to believe (at the time) that someone else would be doing the Solos. Even when it said it on the album I thought it was a misprint
2 On Whatcha Gonna Do, Little Dreamer and Kolors: The guitar playing was so out of character for the some of the solo's. Again, in my Petocentrism, I wondered if he had styles of playing that I just had not hear before. Again we know now that they had players with him, in the event that Peter melted into the rhythm section.

This is not for a moment to downplay Dannys virtuosity and ability to blend with Peter. Their duets are sublime. It's like the Andrew Sisters.
Maybe Snowy is Laverne

doodyhead

[snoot]

This is not for a moment to downplay Dannys virtuosity and ability to blend with Peter. Their duets are sublime. It's like the Andrew Sisters.

Maybe Snowy is Laverne


Doody, only you can bring a smile so quick. :laugh: ;) :D

[JonsonP]

With Nigel, I am sorry to say that even on his best days, he ain't got it.

As a solid gig-worthy guitarist Nigel does a fair job, but when it comes to trying to emulate PG's FM sound it just doesn't come close. When he plays his own solo's in his own style I actually prefer it, whereas most of those BMW, Green Manalishi attempt's are actually pretty average and eventually become annoying! But of course trying to copy PG isn't exactly the easiest task!
:o

[doodyhead]

As a solid gig-worthy guitarist Nigel does a fair job, but when it comes to trying to emulate PG's FM sound it just doesn't come close. When he plays his own solo's in his own style I actually prefer it, whereas most of those BMW, Green Manalishi attempt's are actually pretty average and eventually become annoying! But of course trying to copy PG isn't exactly the easiest task!
:o

Agreed that when Nigel plays his own style. But what is his own style?

He is a fairly competent Robert Johnson imitator.
The songs of his that I like the best are the ones that he doesn't try to imitate anyone.

For example: his one about overeating

vinnie

[Ms Moose]

For example: his one about overeating

vinnie

Which one is that?

Ms Moose

[dansven]

But even with his resurgence in the Splinter Group, the fact that that unit released nine albums in less than that many years sort of hints of a money grab to me. And if there is one thing we ALL know, Peter isn't into green manalishi!
Haha, I like your "manalishi" comment. Yeah, nine albums is a lot.. but I guess it also means that Peter's health in the late 90s and early 2000s has been enormously improved, compared to his days with Kolors. Splinter Group's work load and touring could never have happened in the 80s.

And I guess it's a give-and-take situation really. I mean: Where would Nigel be today without Peter? And where would Peter be today without Nigel?

I'm not so sure about those "solvings" my friend. I'm 99.9 percent certain you and others may be fooling yourselves with such clarity. Snowy and Nigel have both mastered the art of imitation, it's been part of their jobs. That trump card can be pulled out as needed. I won't try to debate on just how much of PG you're hearing at any given time in the post Mac recordings, but trust me it's not always as black and white as it may seem, and far from a duckshoot to decipher. Those who think it is are into wishful thinking. The same can be said for Danny Kirwan years earlier, who possessed the talent to trade licks with - and imitate in many ways - Pete at the end.
Ah, I bet you haven't even bothered to look up those posts!!
Peter's approach is unique!! Mayall said recently that he's one of few players who only have to take a couple of notes, to be recognized. It's true!!!
Nigel Watson?!?! A former plumber (or whatever)?!?! As Vinnie said: "...he ain't got it." Their guitar styles are as different as their voices.
This sort of thing always puzzles me... if people can't distinguish Peter Green from any other guitar wannabe ... then what's the big thing about Peter Green then?? Why would he be so special then to those people???

It always bothers me to read album reviews that go like this:
Peter Green really does a great guitar solo on You'll Be Sorry Someday..." Those reviewers haven't got a clue, as he doesn't play guitar solo on that track.
So, name any SG track, and I'll tell you who's who! ;)

I get the impression you admire Danny more than Peter. And I agree, Danny needs much more recognition! Though, as much as I really adore Danny (both as guitar player and songwriter), I always find that Peter is dimentions above him! As for them trading licks, I've no trouble identifying who's who! The two have completely different styles!! True, they both developed until the "end" in 1970, but I have most bootlegs from that era and the two are actually very different! Listening to bootleg live recordings of for example Rattlesnake Shake/Madge Jams ... you can always identify who's taking lead and who's doing rhythm .. same when they're trading licks!

Btw Snoot, that's a wonderful photo!! Never seen it!! Thanks a lot!! :D

[slipkid]

I get the impression you admire Danny more than Peter. And I agree, Danny needs much more recognition! Though, as much as I really adore Danny (both as guitar player and songwriter), I always find that Peter is dimentions above him!

Oh no! Here we go again, and I'm not helping this time! I'll be cheering you on from the sidelines. :laugh:


Howabout a Mike Bloomfield vs. Peter Green debate instead?

[dansven]

Oh no! Here we go again, and I'm not helping this time! I'll be cheering you on from the sidelines. :laugh:

Hahah, thanks! :lol: You know, I didn't take part in that last discussion, so I'll have a go here!!

[dino]

I think we enthusiastic...obsessive Greeny fans on The Ledge recognise Peter's playing better than most music journalists. Splinter Group - no problem at all, really. Snowy White is a really good imitator (and beyond) though. "Seven Stars" - still wondering if that is Peter or Snowy.

[Blue Horizon]

Hmmm a really interesting thread this one...........anyway here's my take on post Mac Peter Green.
Like some of you lucky people I lost count of the number of times I saw FM with Peter at the helm and when my guitar hero called it a day with the Mac I was devastated to say the Least!
The last gig I went to before Peter really started to show outward signs that all was not well health wise was the 1970 Bath festival when he joined John Mayall. The Bootleg recording of that gig is awful but I can assure you the band and Pete's guitar playing was outstanding.
Fast Forward to the early 80's and Peter's first proper comeback gig was at the Golden Lion Pub in Fulham, London. The Place was packed out as you can imagine but alas what a disappointment it turned out to be for all those Punters who came to see PG as they remembered him with FM. The Guy was totally out of it and should never have been on the stage....I felt so sorry for him and came away from the place feeling angry :mad: that the people around him at that point in time were using him and his legacy to their advantage and had completely disregarded his mental state and health.
I cannot recall how long it was before I had the next opportunity to see 'my guitar hero' but I just had to go with the hope that what I witnessed at the Golden Lion was a One Off....bad day at the office type thing. This Gig was at the Tolworth community centre (South West London/Surrey) and what a transformation! Peter for better not worse (high on something or totally clean?) was on FIRE that night with his guitar chops and vocals well and truely nailed. I remember him playing and singing a stunning 'Need Your Love so Bad' and 'Man of the World'. I really could not believe the difference between these two gigs...chalk and cheese as they say in the uk.... but I was a very :) happy guy that night as 'my hero' was back on track or so I thought at the time..........
The Next time I saw PG was with Kolours at (I think) The Astoria Theatre in Victoria London. I wont dwell on the details to much but just to say that it was a repeat of the Golden Lion gig. Peter during one number stepped on his guitar lead and pulled the Jack plug from his guitar and continued to play without realising that nobody could hear anything.....it was so sad to see him totally out of it. Also he did leave the stage soon afterwards during one song leaving the band to conclude the number and the concert. No encores or a return to the stage for any of them that night.
I think the above highlights the thoughts of some that during the early 80's you never knew what you were going to witness when you went to see PG and for me during this time he became an enigma.....but also someone who I still wanted to support and see whenever I could. Now in hindsight I totally understand what was happening to the guy thanks to Martin Celmins, the BBC 'Hard Road' documentary, Man of the World dvd and the likes of you lot out there in Penguin Land.

Now as far as Danny Kirwan's guitar playing.
I can usually tell the difference between Peter's and Danny's playing but I do recall going to see the Mac one night at a gig in London when they decided to give 'Need Your Love so Bad' an airing....I was coming back from a bathroom break and they were just going into the final guitar break which Peter plays......I re-entered the hall to witness Peter give Danny the nod and Danny just stood there and played note /touch perfect the end guitar solo. Out of all the Mac gigs I went to I never ever saw that happen again. If I had not seen him play that break with my own eyes I would of sworn that it was Peter's playing.
Anyway I hope more people add to this thread and I am delighted that Peter is once again fit and well enough to play some more live music.

Stay Green everyone.

Blue Horizon.

[dansven]

Hi again Blue Horizon!:wavey:
Thanks for sharing your memories.:)

I think we enthusiastic...obsessive Greeny fans on The Ledge recognise Peter's playing better than most music journalists. Splinter Group - no problem at all, really. Snowy White is a really good imitator (and beyond) though. "Seven Stars" - still wondering if that is Peter or Snowy.
Exactly! Even the guy who wrote the (incredibly boring) sleeve notes to the Peter Green Anthology box got it wrong! John Crosby doesn't have a clue writing about Don't Walk Away: "...the closing guitar solo into a thing of wonder as Green's guitar soars away into the kind of cosmic narrative he first exhibited on The Supernatural."
Wrong!! Peter's playing the acoustic guitar solo in the middle. It's Nigel pouring out his poor soul at the end!

And yes, "Seven Stars" is difficult...

Btw didn't the Salvo people say that the booklet would contain photos of Peter's own drawings and artwork? I seem to remember that they wrote in another post that Peter had given them some drawings.. I could be wrong...

[doodyhead]

Which one is that?

Ms Moose

Nigel has own way with things. I am sure that if he dug deep he would have his own style. It seems however that he does not improvise very well.
Thanks for everything, Ms Moose
vinnie

[JonsonP]

"Seven Stars" - always been 80% sure this was Snowy, similar playing style to his Bird of Paradise era work, but could be wrong!

[absinthe_boy]

"you can recognise Peter by just two notes"....take his bit-part on Peter Gabriel's "Up" album in 2004. It is just a few notes, but you KNOW it's Peter Green. Couldn't be anyone else.

I think we all agree that we hope Peter isn't wheeled on stage by someone hoping to use his name for their own financial gain. I like to think that Nigel Watson got involved in the whole Splinter Group thing because he genuinely thought it was helping Peter...indeed for the first few years it probably did. I will always remember Peter's comments in the Hard Road documentary "I love playing, I love appearing. It's really great, you know"...."Nothing's gonna stop me now"...but clearly he doesn't always feel this way. But maybe Nigel pushed too far, or took too much control. Its something we just don't know about.

Another great musician in a somewhat similar situation, who I have seen perform live and from very close to the stage...Brian Wilson. Now there's a guy who has good and bad concerts. I was privileged to be at one of the best, and the guy was on fire with energy for much of the show. He was keenly aware of his audience, mugged for my camera and smiled at me a lot...But other nights I know he was lackluster...I have the 'unofficial DVDs'...I suspect Peter has good and bad days, days when he feels pumped up at the prospect of performing in front of an audience and days when he'd rather go watch a DVD with a cuppa.

[dino]

Hmmm a really interesting thread this one...........anyway here's my take on post Mac Peter Green.
Like some of you lucky people I lost count of the number of times I saw FM with Peter at the helm and when my guitar hero called it a day with the Mac I was devastated to say the Least!
The last gig I went to before Peter really started to show outward signs that all was not well health wise was the 1970 Bath festival when he joined John Mayall. The Bootleg recording of that gig is awful but I can assure you the band and Pete's guitar playing was outstanding.
Fast Forward to the early 80's and Peter's first proper comeback gig was at the Golden Lion Pub in Fulham, London. The Place was packed out as you can imagine but alas what a disappointment it turned out to be for all those Punters who came to see PG as they remembered him with FM. The Guy was totally out of it and should never have been on the stage....I felt so sorry for him and came away from the place feeling angry :mad: that the people around him at that point in time were using him and his legacy to their advantage and had completely disregarded his mental state and health.
I cannot recall how long it was before I had the next opportunity to see 'my guitar hero' but I just had to go with the hope that what I witnessed at the Golden Lion was a One Off....bad day at the office type thing. This Gig was at the Tolworth community centre (South West London/Surrey) and what a transformation! Peter for better not worse (high on something or totally clean?) was on FIRE that night with his guitar chops and vocals well and truely nailed. I remember him playing and singing a stunning 'Need Your Love so Bad' and 'Man of the World'. I really could not believe the difference between these two gigs...chalk and cheese as they say in the uk.... but I was a very :) happy guy that night as 'my hero' was back on track or so I thought at the time..........
The Next time I saw PG was with Kolours at (I think) The Astoria Theatre in Victoria London. I wont dwell on the details to much but just to say that it was a repeat of the Golden Lion gig. Peter during one number stepped on his guitar lead and pulled the Jack plug from his guitar and continued to play without realising that nobody could hear anything.....it was so sad to see him totally out of it. Also he did leave the stage soon afterwards during one song leaving the band to conclude the number and the concert. No encores or a return to the stage for any of them that night.
I think the above highlights the thoughts of some that during the early 80's you never knew what you were going to witness when you went to see PG and for me during this time he became an enigma.....but also someone who I still wanted to support and see whenever I could. Now in hindsight I totally understand what was happening to the guy thanks to Martin Celmins, the BBC 'Hard Road' documentary, Man of the World dvd and the likes of you lot out there in Penguin Land.


Blue Horizon.

Interesting. Do you remember the years for these gigs?
It's indeed wrong to disregard all Greeny's concerts in the 80's.
I have several tapes from 1983 where he plays really well.
Though after that, not so much.

[Ms Moose]

So many elaborate, knowledgeable comments and great thoughts! Threads within the thread. If these threads get much longer and more intense I will have to give up work! :laugh:

Unfortunately I just can't work out how to multi-quote :o, so just to hang on to ONE of the many great themes here, I will comment on:

Peter's approach is unique!! Mayall said recently that he's one of few players who only have to take a couple of notes, to be recognized. It's true!!!
Nigel Watson?!?! A former plumber (or whatever)?!?! As Vinnie said: "...he ain't got it." Their guitar styles are as different as their voices.
This sort of thing always puzzles me... if people can't distinguish Peter Green from any other guitar wannabe ... then what's the big thing about Peter Green then?? Why would he be so special then to those people???

Peter Green used to be a butchers apprentice - remember???;)

This "quality-thing" is very difficult and usually we use words like: "tone" or "feel"....But what the hell is it???? Some of it might be:

1) dansven:"Their guitar styles are as different as their voices": I think PG once said that he considers the guitar the instrument that takes over where the voice "have to give up" (some great singers sees it the other way around, but have the same unique "talent"/gift: Frank Sinatra said that he (Sinatra) was inspired by the trombone in his phrasing, Billie Holliday wanted to be able to sing like Satchmo played his trumpet).
This is [I]one aspect[I]that - to me - distinguish PG's playing from other players: his playing - like the voice - seems to be part of his being (warts and all) and this human quality ressonates instantly with other human beings in a way that is very unique: he is able to communicate feeling directly(One or two of the great classical violinists are blessed with this abillity too). Mick Fleetwood had a comment in the same line as this about PG's singing voice in the MOTW DVD.

2) Contained intensity (as opposed to blasts of energy) and unerring sense of rhytm/timing/pace.

3) He seems to be able to "stay or be with" each note, which makes him very "present" in his playing in a way that is rather unmatched. It's "a hesitation before taking the leap". It is like he starts all over again every time he plays (this sounds crazy I know). A lot of players are way ahead of themselves - they are "dab" or clever, but they are not "present" in the music.
This aspect is could maybe help distinguish him from others/imitators. They can (to a limited extent) imitate the "tone" or "feel" - but not the timing/pace. Maybe this is why some of us don't care too much whether he is "playing lead" or doodling - whatever he does he is "present".

Trying to balance in life, blessed or cursed (whichever way you look at it) with these "gifts" - no wonder this human being needs a long break in between the battles. PG himself commented once that "playing guitar - (or did he say "bending strings"?) - broke his heart, and he wouldn't let it happen to him again". Tapping in to the principal for years carves the way to burn-out.

This (1-3) is why I agree with JonsonP's 80% on Seven Stars, even though the cover on my CD copy has it otherwise. Snowy is not even mentioned on that particular number. I might be wrong too of course.

Hope this wasn't too "long-haired" (danish slang for space-cadet ramblings) and sorry about the broken english.

Ms Moose

[snoot]

JonsonP
As a solid gig-worthy guitarist Nigel does a fair job, but when it comes to trying to emulate PG's FM sound it just doesn't come close.

He doesn't match up to Green's navel. On stage that's pretty apparent. In the studio with the tricks and slights they can utilize, things aren't always as cut and dry. That goes all the more so for a guitarist of Snowy White's reach and caliber, or even incognito top-notch session men that are often employed on certain, less-than-forthcoming productions.

doodyhead
Nigel has own way with things. I am sure that if he dug deep he would have his own style. It seems however that he does not improvise very well.

Understatement of the year. They say he used to be pretty fluent on congas though. :D

Agreed that when Nigel plays his own style. But what is his own style?

LOL. You gotta stay in the game big boy. You're comments are too hip. NO MORE APOLOGIES PLEASE!

dansven
And I guess it's a give-and-take situation really. I mean: Where would Nigel be today without Peter? And where would Peter be today without Nigel?

Sad but true. Nigel has been there for years, and for that reason I think we all have to cut him a bit of slack now and again.

This sort of thing always puzzles me... if people can't distinguish Peter Green from any other guitar wannabe ... then what's the big thing about Peter Green then?? Why would he be so special then to those people???

You can for the most part, considering his playing style and phrasing is unique. It's even more evident on the stage. But I know what cats like Kirwan and White were capable of. If you think you can always "box" them conveniently, especially when they morph into imitation mode, you're sorely mistaken. That's also part of the magic of the studio and high end enhancements, if and when they're gunning for it.

I get the impression you admire Danny more than Peter. And I agree, Danny needs much more recognition! Though, as much as I really adore Danny (both as guitar player and songwriter), I always find that Peter is dimentions above him!

Adore? Mmmm, no. Admire what he brought to the Mac? Very much so. Feel he's under-recognized? To the max. Dimensions below Greenie? No chance, especially not by 1969-1970. As Pete was slipping, Danny was rocketing. He carried the TPO project. My greatest lament of the PGFM era is that we never got to put our ears to the preliminary tapes that were cut by PG and DK for what would have been the follow-up to Then Play On. It was supposedly heavily slanted toward the instrumental side of things, but had just barely got off the ground.

As for them trading licks, I've no trouble identifying who's who!

Wanna take a crack at TPO then -- what percentage on that production do your ears tell you is PG on the guitar front?

Howabout a Mike Bloomfield vs. Peter Green debate instead?

You caused it, now Vinnie is feeling blue for being candid with his views [*slaps a paper mache cut-out of doodyhead in hopes he'll come back to his senses and snap out of his late lament* :p]. As I see it, once you make the "big time", you're marked for additional examination and critiquing, whether it be good, bad or somewhere in between. You already get the big bucks and hot chicks, so that's the least you can expect back in return. What fun is just lapping praise upon a bunch of musical prima donnas? Same thing goes for those we elect to govern us, and our bosses and leash handlers - it's all fair game in love and war. Artists are no different, and fall under the same, often intense, spotlight.

slipkid
Oh no! Here we go again, and I'm not helping this time! I'll be cheering you on from the sidelines. :laugh:

Right. Stay out of it, if you know what's good fer ya. :D

absinthe_boy
I think we all agree that we hope Peter isn't wheeled on stage by someone hoping to use his name for their own financial gain. <snip> Another great musician in a somewhat similar situation, who I have seen perform live and from very close to the stage...Brian Wilson. Now there's a guy who has good and bad concerts.

Excellent comparison, and quite apropos. Both were musical wizards, both helped set certain standards during their heyday, both were nice guys (almost to a fault), and both went down in a hail of hallucinogenic bliss, er, blues, never fully to return.

Peter has good and bad days, days when he feels pumped up at the prospect of performing in front of an audience and days when he'd rather go watch a DVD with a cuppa.

Say it again. His storyline in a nutshell from the time he left the PGFM era.

Ms Moose
This aspect is could maybe help distinguish him from others/imitators. They can (to a limited extent) imitate the "tone" or "feel" - but not the timing/pace. Maybe this is why some of us don't care too much whether he is "playing lead" or doodling - whatever he does he is "present".

Agreed. But with just the right wizardry behind the controls and dubs, lots of things can be "pushed" if a concerted effort is made to imitate. At least by capable hands, more than some imagine.

Hope this wasn't too "long-haired" (danish slang for space-cadet ramblings) and sorry about the broken english.

Dang never knew you were doubling up. Your command of English is par excellent. Chops to that Moose. :thumbsup:

[snoot]

Hmmm a really interesting thread this one...........anyway here's my take on post Mac Peter Green. <snip>

Fast Forward to the early 80's and Peter's first proper comeback gig was at the Golden Lion Pub in Fulham, London. The Place was packed out as you can imagine but alas what a disappointment it turned out to be for all those Punters who came to see PG as they remembered him with FM. The Guy was totally out of it and should never have been on the stage....I felt so sorry for him and came away from the place feeling angry that the people around him at that point in time were using him and his legacy to their advantage and had completely disregarded his mental state and health.

You can't help but come away with those kinds of feelings if you witnessed it first hand.

I cannot recall how long it was before I had the next opportunity to see 'my guitar hero' but I just had to go with the hope that what I witnessed at the Golden Lion was a One Off....bad day at the office type thing. This Gig was at the Tolworth community centre (South West London/Surrey) and what a transformation! Peter for better not worse (high on something or totally clean?) was on FIRE that night with his guitar chops and vocals well and truely nailed.

There ya go, more of the YMMV I spoke of earlier. Call it the WYSIWYG syndrome.

The Next time I saw PG was with Kolours at (I think) The Astoria Theatre in Victoria London. I wont dwell on the details to much but just to say that it was a repeat of the Golden Lion gig. Peter during one number stepped on his guitar lead and pulled the Jack plug from his guitar and continued to play without realising that nobody could hear anything.....it was so sad to see him totally out of it. Also he did leave the stage soon afterwards during one song leaving the band to conclude the number and the concert. No encores or a return to the stage for any of them that night.

And but again. With the experiences I had, I simply couldn't handle more of the same, and gave up the concert ghost. :distress: Fortunately he made a more steady recovery as the eighties begat the nineties and beyond. Keep yer fingers crossed is all I can say.

Now as far as Danny Kirwan's guitar playing.
I can usually tell the difference between Peter's and Danny's playing but I do recall going to see the Mac one night at a gig in London when they decided to give 'Need Your Love so Bad' an airing....I was coming back from a bathroom break and they were just going into the final guitar break which Peter plays......I re-entered the hall to witness Peter give Danny the nod and Danny just stood there and played note /touch perfect the end guitar solo. Out of all the Mac gigs I went to I never ever saw that happen again. If I had not seen him play that break with my own eyes I would of sworn that it was Peter's playing.

Like a breath of fresh air, from one who saw it with their own eyes and ears. But still, we have the Doubting Thomas's by the score, and others who size up Danny to be little more than a convenient foil for the Green God.

[dansven]

You can for the most part, considering his playing style and phrasing is unique. It's even more evident on the stage. But I know what cats like Kirwan and White were capable of. If you think you can always "box" them conveniently, especially when they morph into imitation mode, you're sorely mistaken. That's also part of the magic of the studio and high end enhancements, if and when they're gunning for it.


Mister, you're talking contradictions here!
You're suddenly saying it easy to identify Peter's playing, and especially onstage, because it's unique and everything. Wouldn't it be right to assume that Peter could do even better in the studio than onstage? After all, you emphasized how his concerts were ups and downs. In the studio on the other hand, he would have the chance to do several takes to get the best results. And didn't have to deal with the "stage fright" part of it.


Admire what he brought to the Mac? Very much so. Feel he's under-recognized? To the max. (...) My greatest lament of the PGFM era is that we never got to put our ears to the preliminary tapes that were cut by PG and DK for what would have been the follow-up to Then Play On. It was supposedly heavily slanted toward the instrumental side of things, but had just barely got off the ground.
Agreed!:nod:
Regarding the instrumental project, I have a clipping of an NME interview with Peter from '69-'70. He said that it would be an album of instrumentals, and that he already had 6 songs ready. I'm not sure if he meant written or recorded. I'm sure it would have been a classic album. :(


Dimensions below Greenie? No chance, especially not by 1969-1970. As Pete was slipping, Danny was rocketing. He carried the TPO project.

Peter "slipping"??? Now what is your definition of "slipping"? I'm sure he was having some mental issues (guilt, money etc...) during his last days with FMac. But his guitar playing didn't change ... didn't lose any energy... until after "The End Of The Game". Listen to his contributions to Memphis Slim and Toe Fat, which were recorded after he left FMac. Danny could never do that kind of stuff.
Peter's schizophrenia really manifested after The End Of The Game, with mental institutions etc. That's when I'd say Peter was "slipping".

Do you have have any live bootleg recordings from '69-'70?

Danny "carried the TPO project." :shocked::confused::shocked: How can you say something like that???
Give me some proof!
Really, to me this sound like a rash statement of a Kirwan fan.

Your admiration for Danny is the big issue, isn't it? Let me again say that I really admire Danny, and not as a foil for Green.
However, if Danny had what Peter had, and according to you was rocketing and carrying the TPO project... then why didn't the guitar playing on Kiln House, Future Games and Bare Trees have that same magic as Then Play On?


Wanna take a crack at TPO then -- what percentage on that production do your ears tell you is PG on the guitar front?

Sure I can!! But why don't you give me YOUR percentage first??? Instead of telling me I haven't got a clue.

[sharksfan2000]

Regarding the instrumental project, I have a clipping of an NME interview with Peter from '69-'70. He said that it would be an album of instrumentals, and that he already had 6 songs ready. I'm not sure if he meant written or recorded. I'm sure it would have been a classic album. :(
Any chance you could scan that clipping and post it, dansven? There aren't that many late '60s interviews I've seen and it would be cool to read that one.

[dansven]

Any chance you could scan that clipping and post it, dansven? There aren't that many late '60s interviews I've seen and it would be cool to read that one.

Sure, Sharksfan! ;)
It's not really an interview, to my memory. Rather a short article, with some comments from Peter. I have a few .. they're stuffed away. I'll dig them out and post some scans in the following days! :nod:

[sharksfan2000]

Sure, Sharksfan! ;)
It's not really an interview, to my memory. Rather a short article, with some comments from Peter. I have a few .. they're stuffed away. I'll dig them out and post some scans in the following days! :nod:
Great, dansven- thanks!! :thumbsup:

[snoot]

:pMister, you're talking contradictions here!
You're suddenly saying it easy to identify Peter's playing, and especially onstage, because it's unique and everything. Wouldn't it be right to assume that Peter could do even better in the studio than onstage? After all, you emphasized how his concerts were ups and downs. In the studio on the other hand, he would have the chance to do several takes to get the best results. And didn't have to deal with the "stage fright" part of it.

Identification as such is always easier with visual enhancements to serve as guideposts. No way around that. Peter, in his modern, less than energized form, could employ lots of synthetic "tricks" to make up for certain deficits if he cared to, but he has never been into that kind of scene. Besides, it would be far more efficient for his handlers and production people to utilize others to carry part of the missing muscle. This kind of thing has gone on for as long as there have been recorded productions, when and as needed. It's what often goes on behind the scenes - and behind those sometimes missing credits - that comprises the unwritten story (just ask Jimmy "sessions" Page, before he hit the "big time"). Principals and producers alike know it's what can make or break a project, and sometimes their budgets.

Agreed!:nod:
Regarding the instrumental project, I have a clipping of an NME interview with Peter from '69-'70. He said that it would be an album of instrumentals, and that he already had 6 songs ready. I'm not sure if he meant written or recorded. I'm sure it would have been a classic album. :(

Indeed, indeed. I remember way-back-when pondering what might come of it. And waiting. And what did we ultimately get? Kiln House. LOL [not that I regretted it in the long run, I'm actually quite a fan of that production]

Peter "slipping"??? Now what is your definition of "slipping"? I'm sure he was having some mental issues (guilt, money etc...) during his last days with FMac. But his guitar playing didn't change ... didn't lose any energy... until after "The End Of The Game".

No sorry my friend. His guitar prowess had taken a hit well into '69, due to his mental state. Not when he was on, but when he wasn't in burn or drive mode. His mind was already beginning to fray at the edges by TPO. It was his consistency, and the discipline to push hard and forward, that were now becoming erratic, to say the least. By 1970, it was a real concern for the whole band. His substance indulgences led to the Munich incident, that incident wasn't created out of a vacuum, and didn't begin the downward spiral (accelerated it perhaps, compounded things no doubt, but it wasn't the genesis of his troubles, regardless of what you read from certain sources). Still, he had his moments, both on stage and in the studio, but never with the consistency of before.

Listen to his contributions to Memphis Slim and Toe Fat, which were recorded after he left FMac. Danny could never do that kind of stuff.

It would be unwise to underestimate what young Kirwan could do. There was a reason Peter Green chose him to be his right hand man and partner in crime (er, battle). In that regard, Greenie was no fool.

Peter's schizophrenia really manifested after The End Of The Game, with mental institutions etc. That's when I'd say Peter was "slipping".

No, by then it was full bore and the game was up, or more accurately (a la the man himself), it became the end of the game. There was also a reason Jeremy increasingly sought sanctuary away from the fold, beyond any star-power doubts he may have had. With what he had experienced, and what he saw going on around them, the COD must have looked like the perfect escape to much of the craziness that ultimately brought Green to his knees.

Do you have have any live bootleg recordings from '69-'70?

Don't need to rely on them. Used to see some of the concerts first hand back then. Glimpsed some other insider knowledge back in the day to boot.

Danny "carried the TPO project." :shocked::confused::shocked: How can you say something like that???
Give me some proof!
Really, to me this sound like a rash statement of a Kirwan fan.

Kirwan fan I am, but then I'm a Green fan, a Spencer fan, a Welch fan and a Westy fan. All were part of the great Mac attack guitar front. But the majority of what you hear on TPO is by the lad himself. Peter was counting on him, needed him to step up and cover the bases, and he delivered. Where Peter excelled, perhaps like never before, was in the stunning compositions he put together at that time, often born of outright pain and anguish. That, more than anything else, makes that production his shining star, arguably his apex. Beyond that, he counted on Danny to carry a huge amount of the studio weight. There's no shortage of PG interlaced throughout though, so there's little point in kicking up camp dust over this.

Your admiration for Danny is the big issue, isn't it? Let me again say that I really admire Danny, and not as a foil for Green.
However, if Danny had what Peter had, and according to you was rocketing and carrying the TPO project... then why didn't the guitar playing on Kiln House, Future Games and Bare Trees have that same magic as Then Play On?

Rocketing as a fully lit package, something Peter already was, and had been for some time. Both on the guitar end, and, as importantly, on the compositional front. Those two were destined for bigger and better things together, but they never quite got there when things went into a blackened orbit. I've said it before, when Peter went down, he took part of Danny with him (possibly a piece of Jeremy as well). That bittersweet synthesis was tied together in damn near cosmic ways, and thus the parallels with even their respective demises.

There's plenty of sweet licks from DK on the subsequent projects, it's just he had less fuel in his tank - less desire in driving things over the top - when PG was out of the loop. Who was there to rev him up, or keep his feet planted when his own insecurities kicked in? As good as Spencer and Welch were, and as well as they worked with him in crafting those mid era releases, they weren't Green in Kirwan's eyes, the one who motivated him like none other (even if it bordered on a love-hate relationship at times).

Sure I can!! But why don't you give me YOUR percentage first??? Instead of telling me I haven't got a clue.

Are you saying your ears might deceive you? You wouldn't be alone. ;)

[dansven]

Snoot ...... now I get it!!! :lol: I understand you're posting this stuff just for fun! Your posts are hilarious!!!:lol::lol:

Either that, or you're the one who's "slipping" ... into Kirwan obsession.. :shrug:



His guitar prowess had taken a hit well into '69, due to his mental state.
HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!
:D:D


Don't need to rely on them. Used to see some of the concerts first hand back then. Glimpsed some other insider knowledge back in the day to boot.
No, you don't need them because they would ruin your Kirwan illusion!!! :lol:
And I assume you don't have the Toe Fat lp og the Memphis Slim lp either..... so basically: You don't know what you're talking about!


But the majority of what you hear on TPO is by the lad(...)
YES!!! YES!!!! There you go again!!!! :]:blob1:



..... I've asked for proof earlier, and I ask again! Anything!!!...other than your wild imagination, of course.



Are you saying your ears might deceive you? You wouldn't be alone. ;)
Not at all. But it's just stupid to go on discussing... anything I'd say would be answered with something like: "Sorry my friend, but DK did the majority..."
You're the one who ought to start giving your percentage!
I've asked for some references ...... you've given me none.

[snoot]

Someday you'll learn the full story. Don't lose sleep over it. Ciao-ski m8.

[slipkid]

slipkid
Oh no! Here we go again, and I'm not helping this time! I'll be cheering you on from the sidelines. :laugh:

Snoot: Right. Stay out of it, if you know what's good fer ya. :D

Damn straight, 'dansven' had the ammo that a kid that was born just under one year after PG left FM didn't!! Thank you 'dansven'! Your Kirwan worship is annoying. :D I love him as a member, but you have to be kidding in your comparisons to PG. :laugh: I have the boots, and I have the pro live recordings, it's just not there. Not even when Green left, Kirwan doesn't come close to Green as a soloist.

For dansven, is the Toe Fat material still available? I know the Memphis Slim album is.


I lied?? I couldn't let this one go.

[dino]

Damn straight, 'dansven' had the ammo that a kid that was born just under one year after PG left FM didn't!! Thank you 'dansven'! Your Kirwan worship is annoying. :D I love him as a member, but you have to be kidding in your comparisons to PG. :laugh: I have the boots, and I have the pro live recordings, it's just not there. Not even when Green left, Kirwan doesn't come close to Green as a soloist.

For dansven, is the Toe Fat material still available? I know the Memphis Slim album is.


I lied?? I couldn't let this one go.

Yep, that Kirwan obsession is annoying. He was great, but why to try pit him against Greeny? He was a pupil, a kid, in awe of Peter.
I'll say: Just from listening evidence (oh, maybe CIA doctored the live tapes ::lol:), Greeny was on fire to the end of his tenure with Mac. Listen to the Boston Tea tapes, listen to the London gig from April 1970 (AFTER Munich, remember).
It's frighteningly imaginative playing. The fact that Danny has lots of space on Then Play On was more a case of generosity on somone's part than burn-out. How many guitar heroes give over half their new album to a protegée? Danny's songs are fine, but immature. He wrote far better material for Kiln House, Future Games and Bare Trees. His disctinctive vibrato can be heard on his own songs, Oh Well and the Madge jams. The Madge jams are a good example for those who have trouble telling the styles apart. Not pointing any fingers, of course :]

[dansven]

Someday you'll learn the full story. Don't lose sleep over it. Ciao-ski m8.

Hey Snoot!

Here's the latest:
In fact neither Danny nor Peter played on TPO. They hired Rod Stewart to do the guitar solos. Frank Sinatra and Ed Sullivan did the background vocals. John McVie was the only band member to play on the album. He played bass guitar and sang lead vocals, and he also wrote all the songs.


Drums? See, there aren't any on the album. What you hear is just some studio magic thing.



By the way, it's a well known fact that Danny teamed up with John Mayall, and the couple were busy writing and recording Beatles' "Abbey Road" album in 1969, while the Fab Four were in jail.


That same year Danny wrote the soundtrack to "The Bridges of Madison County", 'cause he had the ability of time travels.

[JonsonP]

:D
Wow, Danny was some seriously talented guy, no way PG could compete with that... :p

[dino]

:D
Wow, Danny was some seriously talented guy, no way PG could compete with that... :p

Whoa, I must check out the soundtrack to the cheesy Clint Eastwood movie.
I take your word for it, Daniel. :laugh: :laugh:

[Evan Morris]

There are several reasons for Peter's decision to leave the band and his subsequent mental decline. Based on what I have been told by a couple of people who knew him back in the day, Peter was and is of a very sensitive, humble, and artistic tempermant. LSD and other drugs were often used as a conduit to artistic expression. This was not neccessary with Peter. As Jenny Boyd once put it: Peter was already there, he was already connected to his own soul artistically. Such people don't need drugs to achieve artistic enlightenment, in fact such drugs seem to cause mush greater destruction with people of an artistic bend. The other issue that I have never heard metioned is that Peter and the whole band for that matter were in a state of total exhaustion after three years of constant touring, recording, rehearsing etc. Mick Fleetwood once stated that there was never a time when the band was not working. An important point that is always missed when Peter's illness is discussed.

[snoot]

Never said he couldn't play. He was jamming like a firebrand right thru End Of The Game. But sorry to bust precious bubbles, his mind had already taken a hit into '69. What do you think most of his TPO songs were cast from? The beginning of the unraveling - and Peter was aware of it, at least partially, you can hear the anguish and frustration clearly setting in. It makes for much of the dark and even intriguing pastel that TPO is. It only got worse into 1970 and beyond, but the heavy drug indulgence went back earlier, with LSD entering the picture with the band's introduction to the Dead and Bear while on tour stateside. [There is even a connection to the Mac riding shotgun in their signature anthem Truckin']. He wasn't the pillar he once was in the studio by TPO either. Thought you boys knew more about the Green God than you're letting onto.

PS. Be careful in taking Mick's word or recollections on all things Mac as gospel truth. At times it's a convenient menagerie of how he chooses to paint or revisit the past, subject to the tricks of time and space. Fleetwood has always been selective (look no further than who he deems selectively "worthy" of HOF consideration), and there are clearly some faulty memory spikes in the works. We all have 'em to some extent, so I don't fault him completely as he is often put under the spotlight in that regard, and what he shoots from the hip a lot of times ends up in print - without the ability to edit thereafter. Green was kind to turn the amount of weight he did to Kirwan for the TPO project as Mick suggests, but he also had little choice by then, not if he wanted to complete that project with any realistic hopes of meeting the production budgets and certain contractual deadlines. Peter also didn't go south at Munich "just like that" [with the snap of his fingers] as Mick conveniently contends, that affair was a long time in the making. If you don't know that by now, you need to start digging for better answers.

I'd suggest being cognizant about pointing fingers on "obsessing" here too. I see lots of shades of green in this forum in that regard. A good percentage of its borders on blind faith, from folks who don't even trail back to those turbulent days, and now hope to glimpse that haze and whirlwind with the clarity of psychics.

EDIT: Good points made by Evan, but sadly Peter had overplayed his hand on the substance end of things while fronting the Mac, and there's no way to turn back the clock once your cup fill'eth and overflows in that regard.

[dansven]

If you don't know that by now, you need start digging for better answers.

But where should we start digging, folks? ...other than listening to Snoot's intelligent lectures. Where can we read more about this?

I've asked Snoot himself this question a number of times, but it has only been answered by his own assuring words. Perhaps he has a nice little hole where we can all dig together?




Here's a new theory: Someone ....s-o-m-e-o-n-e ..... here.... longtime Mac fan .. heard that Peter Green was forming a new band again..... someone... made a call ... and showed up................................
but didn't pass the audition!:]

[snoot]

But where should we start digging, folks? ...other than listening to Snoot's intelligent lectures. Where can we read more about this?
I've given you a lot to chew I admit (maybe too much to digest?), but if the chicks don't want to listen to the hen...

If you'd stop acting like a kid and get off yer whimsical butt, you'd no doubt figure it out. Consider yourself lucky yours truly showed up with more than just obsessive praise and lickspittle panting for master Greenie. You're only the wiser for it, or are you? Hmmm ... nah. There's this thing about leading horses to water. .. :p

No more with you on this Daniel, I've said enough. "Evil" one OUT.

[dansven]

I've given you a lot to chew I admit (maybe too much to digest?), but if the chicks don't want to listen to the hen...

If you'd stop acting like a kid and get off yer whimsical butt, you'd no doubt figure it out. Consider yourself lucky yours truly showed up with more than just obsessive praise and lickspittle panting for master Greenie. You're only the wiser for it, or are you? Hmmm ... nah. There's this thing about leading horses to water. .. :p

No more with you on this Daniel, I've said enough. "Evil" one OUT.

Yeah, I guess it's the end.. because you never got off YOUR whimsical butt and gave us other references to this. ;) That's the only thing I've asked for all the way!

:wavey: ;)

[dansven]

Damn straight, 'dansven' had the ammo that a kid that was born just under one year after PG left FM didn't!! Thank you 'dansven'!
(...)
For dansven, is the Toe Fat material still available? I know the Memphis Slim album is.
Haha, thanks again slipkid! :thumbsup:

The album is called Toe Fat Two and is still available at Amazon. It was reissued in 2001 by the mighty Repertiore label. I have a twofer from 1996 with Toe Fat "One" and "Two". Peter plays great guitar on 2 tracks on "Two".

The Memphis Slim album is available on CD from two different labels: One from Wounded Bird Records (the original album), and one from Universal Music France/Sunnyside Communication (the original album + 2 bonus studio outtakes feat. Green).

Hope you get hold of those albums! ;)


Yep, that Kirwan obsession is annoying. He was great, but why to try pit him against Greeny? He was a pupil, a kid, in awe of Peter.
I'll say: Just from listening evidence (oh, maybe CIA doctored the live tapes ::lol:), Greeny was on fire to the end of his tenure with Mac. Listen to the Boston Tea tapes, listen to the London gig from April 1970 (AFTER Munich, remember).
It's frighteningly imaginative playing. The fact that Danny has lots of space on Then Play On was more a case of generosity on somone's part than burn-out. How many guitar heroes give over half their new album to a protegée? Danny's songs are fine, but immature. He wrote far better material for Kiln House, Future Games and Bare Trees. His disctinctive vibrato can be heard on his own songs, Oh Well and the Madge jams. The Madge jams are a good example for those who have trouble telling the styles apart. Not pointing any fingers, of course :]

Thanks for the support, Dino! :wavey:
We could make jokes about this topic. But you are indeed saying wise words here!:nod: The Boston recordings are proof.. marvellous playing from Peter!!!
"He was great, but why to try pit him against Greeny? He was a pupil, a kid, in awe of Peter." -- Totally agree!! It's just a stupid and pointless discussion really, that I don't think belongs on any Peter Green/Fleetwood Mac forum.

[dansven]

So many elaborate, knowledgeable comments and great thoughts! Threads within the thread. If these threads get much longer and more intense I will have to give up work! :laugh:

Unfortunately I just can't work out how to multi-quote :o, so just to hang on to ONE of the many great themes here, I will comment on:



Peter Green used to be a butchers apprentice - remember???;)

This "quality-thing" is very difficult and usually we use words like: "tone" or "feel"....But what the hell is it???? Some of it might be:

1) dansven:"Their guitar styles are as different as their voices": I think PG once said that he considers the guitar the instrument that takes over where the voice "have to give up" (some great singers sees it the other way around, but have the same unique "talent"/gift: Frank Sinatra said that he (Sinatra) was inspired by the trombone in his phrasing, Billie Holliday wanted to be able to sing like Satchmo played his trumpet).
This is [I]one aspect[I]that - to me - distinguish PG's playing from other players: his playing - like the voice - seems to be part of his being (warts and all) and this human quality ressonates instantly with other human beings in a way that is very unique: he is able to communicate feeling directly(One or two of the great classical violinists are blessed with this abillity too). Mick Fleetwood had a comment in the same line as this about PG's singing voice in the MOTW DVD.

2) Contained intensity (as opposed to blasts of energy) and unerring sense of rhytm/timing/pace.

3) He seems to be able to "stay or be with" each note, which makes him very "present" in his playing in a way that is rather unmatched. It's "a hesitation before taking the leap". It is like he starts all over again every time he plays (this sounds crazy I know). A lot of players are way ahead of themselves - they are "dab" or clever, but they are not "present" in the music.
This aspect is could maybe help distinguish him from others/imitators. They can (to a limited extent) imitate the "tone" or "feel" - but not the timing/pace. Maybe this is why some of us don't care too much whether he is "playing lead" or doodling - whatever he does he is "present".

Trying to balance in life, blessed or cursed (whichever way you look at it) with these "gifts" - no wonder this human being needs a long break in between the battles. PG himself commented once that "playing guitar - (or did he say "bending strings"?) - broke his heart, and he wouldn't let it happen to him again". Tapping in to the principal for years carves the way to burn-out.

This (1-3) is why I agree with JonsonP's 80% on Seven Stars, even though the cover on my CD copy has it otherwise. Snowy is not even mentioned on that particular number. I might be wrong too of course.

Hope this wasn't too "long-haired" (danish slang for space-cadet ramblings) and sorry about the broken english.

Ms Moose

Hi MsMoose! :)
Your post is something that's been ignored, and it is far more interesting that this "Green vs. Kirwan" discussion! :nod:
I am amazed by what you're writing, it really makes sense.
Especially point 2 and 3 are what I find in Peter's playing. Not many players have the qualities you're listing. Miles Davies certainly did!!!! Others??
There are not many of them....:shrug:

I would like to add another number:
4) Taste!
Few guitar players can come up with such sweet licks and melodies within one song, as Peter. I don't know if that made any sense.. perhaps too "long-haired!":D

(Hilsen fra Norge ;) )

[slipkid]

Haha, thanks again slipkid! :thumbsup:

The album is called Toe Fat Two and is still available at Amazon. It was reissued in 2001 by the mighty Repertiore label. I have a twofer from 1996 with Toe Fat "One" and "Two". Peter plays great guitar on 2 tracks on "Two".

The Memphis Slim album is available on CD from two different labels: One from Wounded Bird Records (the original album), and one from Universal Music France/Sunnyside Communication (the original album + 2 bonus studio outtakes feat. Green).

Hope you get hold of those albums!

Well thanks to the wonders of Youtube I tracked this down:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49Io5wMSA20


I'm ordering this baby right away! Thanks again dansven.

[dansven]

I'm ordering this baby right away! Thanks again dansven.

Yeah! :D More of that on the album!
It quite experimentally for a blues album...

[slipkid]

Yeah! :D More of that on the album!
It quite experimentally for a blues album...


From that one track "Chicago Seven" I can see what Peter Green's future could've been after FM. Without the LSD Green probably would've been a session guitarist for his favorite blues-men until he decided on something else. He would've fulfilled Clapton's vision circa 1965 before Eric decided that money and fame were more important. That's a lot of lost opportunities for fans like us.

[dansven]

Indeed! :nod:
Peter is really on fire on the Memphis Slim album. There are lots of session musicians there, but Peter plays lead on 70 percent... (my estimate from memory).
If you like 12 bar wahwah lead guitar, you'd better check out the song "There'll Be Changes" from the Toe Fat album. ;)

[Ms Moose]

Hi MsMoose! :)
Your post is something that's been ignored, and it is far more interesting that this "Green vs. Kirwan" discussion! :nod:
I am amazed by what you're writing, it really makes sense.
Especially point 2 and 3 are what I find in Peter's playing. Not many players have the qualities you're listing. Miles Davies certainly did!!!! Others??
There are not many of them....:shrug:

I would like to add another number:
4) Taste!
Few guitar players can come up with such sweet licks and melodies within one song, as Peter. I don't know if that made any sense.. perhaps too "long-haired!":D

(Hilsen fra Norge ;) )

Thank You for noticing my post dansven. I had been thinking about what makes PG's playing special for some time after you popped the question in one of your previous posts. And it took some time to put it into words.

These discussions about "Who Is The Best" seems futile because we like different things in music. And if we don't know exactly what we are comparing, it becomes a "god-dag mand -økseskaft" discussion (hope you have this expression in norwegian as well), I don't know how to translate it into english.
Great guitar playing is not about "chops" to me, but it might be to someone else. What exactly is "chops"?

I agree with you on 4) taste! It is not longhaired at all. Maybe there is more....

Hilsen fra Danmark

Ms Moose

[doodyhead]

People go crazy comparing things

I guess it is human nature

"An Immortal Bandleader was asked what is good music?"

He said: "If it sounds good , it is good!

I have always believed that.

Some players have produced more good things than others.

So what?

Some music becomes more tiresome than others, some you just can't get enough of

Peter's music is one of the latter types for me


doodyhead

[dino]

Thank You for noticing my post dansven. I had been thinking about what makes PG's playing special for some time after you popped the question in one of your previous posts. And it took some time to put it into words.

These discussions about "Who Is The Best" seems futile because we like different things in music. And if we don't know exactly what we are comparing, it becomes a "god-dag mand -økseskaft" discussion (hope you have this expression in norwegian as well), I don't know how to translate it into english.
Great guitar playing is not about "chops" to me, but it might be to someone else. What exactly is "chops"?

I agree with you on 4) taste! It is not longhaired at all. Maybe there is more....

Hilsen fra Danmark

Ms Moose


I agree with those sentiments, Ms Moose.
By the way, the expression is "god dag yxskaft" in Swedish :)

[doodyhead]

I agree with those sentiments, Ms Moose.
By the way, the expression is "god dag yxskaft" in Swedish :)

how do you pronounce that?

[dansven]

In Norwegian: "God dag mann økseskaft".
:laugh:

[Ms Moose]

how do you pronounce that?

This expression is used to explain when two people are unable to communicate with each other because they don't talk about the same thing but believe thay are. One asks a question the other one answers.

Directly translated the words are:

"Nice day, Man - Axehandle".

It's one of those expressions that are impossible to translate really. It is also impossible to write the "sound" (for me anyway). I promised never to do that again!!!

Ms Moose

[Ms Moose]

...It's funny that You also use the expresion in Norway (dansven) and Sweden (Dino).

Ms Moose:wavey: Fra København

[dansven]

...It's funny that You also use the expresion in Norway (dansven) and Sweden (Dino).

Ms Moose:wavey: Fra København

Yes, I guess it's a folk fairytale. ...or perhaps master H.C. Andersen?

Greetings from Tromsø (Northern part of Norway) :wavey:

[doodyhead]

two elephants are in a bathtub
one elephant says to the other "pass the soap"
the other says "no soap radio"


i see what you mean

[kowk]

Hello from Poland,
I've found info about another Greeny's gig in February (20.02.2009).
http://www.leffingeleuren.be/index.php?nav=agenda&concert=666
It seems another musician (ROLAND) is going to perform with P. Green & Friends. We need some help from fans from Belgium in translation this info to English :-)
Regards
Krzysztof

[kowk]

So far we know about P. Green & Friends coming gigs:
20.02.2009 - Leffinge (Belgium)
21.02.2009 - Amsterdam
22.02.2009 - Tilburg (Holland)
25.02.2009 - Hamburg
27.02.2009 - Veviers (Belgium)
Does anybody know something about any more gig?
Regards
Krzysztof

[Norton]

Hello from Poland,
I've found info about another Greeny's gig in February (20.02.2009).
http://www.leffingeleuren.be/index.php?nav=agenda&concert=666
It seems another musician (ROLAND) is going to perform with P. Green & Friends. We need some help from fans from Belgium in translation this info to English :-)
Regards
Krzysztof

Roland Van Campenhout
http://www.rolandvancampenhout.be/

Info in English... been around a long time.
http://users.telenet.be/vanslycken/roland/english/index.html

[dansven]

From what I understand Roland is just the support act.