Interesting read

[Norton]

I just came across this, I dont think anyone had posted it before.

http://guitarplayer.wordpress.com/2008/07/15/peter-green-the-greatest-forgotten-guitar-hero/

[Popmuseum]

I just came across this, I dont think anyone had posted it before.

http://guitarplayer.wordpress.com/2008/07/15/peter-green-the-greatest-forgotten-guitar-hero/

Very interesting. Thanx.

[sharksfan2000]

Thanks for posting this, Norton! Great info on the equipment and recording process.

[kowk]

I just came across this, I dont think anyone had posted it before.

http://guitarplayer.wordpress.com/2008/07/15/peter-green-the-greatest-forgotten-guitar-hero/

Thanks for this link -it's a very interesting article.
Krzysztof

[snoot]

Not bad, but arguably a bit one-sided re Peter Green. PG was definitely the leader and driving force behind the original blues-rock Mac unit, no doubt about it. FM wouldn't have achieved the fame they did without Peter's immense input. That's a given also. But to completely overlook Danny Kirwan in the preface, with the counterpoint and weight he provided, or even Jeremy Spencer for his stage presence and comic relief, is a fairly sizable omission. To its credit, the article does improve by adding more depth later on when discussing the respective equipment the guys used, and some of the techniques employed. For that I give it a B+.

As I see it, when sizing up the Green-led Mac, those 3 principals pretty much fuse as one. Anything less and you're splitting hairs mostly. Case in point: what would Then Play On be without Kirwan's heady supplement?

PS. It's like yappin' a tad too enthusiastically about Duane Allman (RIP) and his contro to ABB while conveniently forgetting Dicky Betts. Ain't gonna fly in the long run for those in the know.

[chiliD]

PS. It's like yappin' a tad too enthusiastically about Duane Allman (RIP) and his contro to ABB while conveniently forgetting Dicky Betts. Ain't gonna fly in the long run for those in the know.


Dickey Betts wouldn't have been "Dickey Betts" without Duane Allman...Duane pushed Dickey to be better than he was... in the same way Danny Kirwan & Jeremy Spencer wouldn't have been who they were without Peter Green. Peter set the standard and Danny & Jeremy had to "up their game" to keep up.

[slipkid]

Not bad, but arguably a bit one-sided re Peter Green. PG was definitely the leader and driving force behind the original blues-rock Mac unit, no doubt about it. FM wouldn't have achieved the fame they did without Peter's immense input. That's a given also. But to completely overlook Danny Kirwan in the preface, with the counterpoint and weight he provided, or even Jeremy Spencer for his stage presence and comic relief, is a fairly sizable omission. To its credit, the article does improve by adding more depth later on when discussing the respective equipment the guys used, and some of the techniques employed. For that I give it a B+.

As I see it, when sizing up the Green-led Mac, those 3 principals pretty much fuse as one. Anything less and you're splitting hairs mostly. Case in point: what would Then Play On be without Kirwan's heady supplement?

PS. It's like yappin' a tad too enthusiastically about Duane Allman (RIP) and his contro to ABB while conveniently forgetting Dicky Betts. Ain't gonna fly in the long run for those in the know.


Well the article isn't about the rest of Fleetwood Mac, it's about Peter Green. As good as Kirwan and Spencer were, Peter Green was the engine in the car. That's quite obvious given Spencer's quick departure nine months after Green, and Kirwan's decent into alcoholism. No one is taking away their contributions. The article merely wants to give credit to a guitarist who is easily overlooked compared to Clapton, Beck, Page, Allman (yes I said it), Hendrix.... Green clearly belongs in that group.

[snoot]

Well the article isn't about the rest of Fleetwood Mac, it's about Peter Green. As good as Kirwan and Spencer were, Peter Green was the engine in the car. That's quite obvious given Spencer's quick departure nine months after Green, and Kirwan's decent into alcoholism. No one is taking away their contributions. The article merely wants to give credit to a guitarist who is easily overlooked compared to Clapton, Beck, Page, Allman (yes I said it), Hendrix.... Green clearly belongs in that group.

I'll give you that, the main thrust of the article, but Green's FM constitution without Kirwan is like ABB without Betts. Or of another vein, Lennon without McCartney. Still good, but nowhere near complete. That was my main point. It could also be argued - very easily IMO - that Kirwan's guitar pulse shone every bit as bright as Green's in the blues-rock Fleetwood Mac. Then Play On is proof of that, beyond their late stage appearances where Kirwan really took flight. Spencer should not even be mentioned here. Great stage presence, but not a guitar master.

BTW why bring up DK's alcoholism when Green's mental deterioration was even more abrupt, one likewise fueled by drugs and booze. Best to keep an even hand here.

[snoot]

Dickey Betts wouldn't have been "Dickey Betts" without Duane Allman...Duane pushed Dickey to be better than he was... in the same way Danny Kirwan & Jeremy Spencer wouldn't have been who they were without Peter Green. Peter set the standard and Danny & Jeremy had to "up their game" to keep up.

Dickey Betts was quite good right from the start. He fueled Duane with his great compositions every bit as much as Duane fueled him with his masterful licks. Also ABB would never reach the heights they did without Betts key contributions. Most of their hits came from his hand, with Gregg being a pretty close second. As for his instrumental abilities, the fact that he could carry on as the band's solo guitarist after Duane's death, even taking the band to further heights of popularity, should be proof of his guitar mastery. I'll never take anything away from Duane though; even Eric Clapton was blown away by his playing in Miami. And I'll give you your key point, that he certainly pushed DB to his guitar picking limits.

You also make the mistake many others do in equating Jeremy's prowess on the instrument with Kirwan's. Spencer was no match in that regard, so much so that Green's last masterpiece with the band, the Then Play On project, didn't even require Spencer. That was all Green + Kirwan on those layered riffs. Jeremy was a master of the stage, a competent slide guitarist into the bargain, a great rock n roller and parody "character", but an axemeister of Green or Kirwan's caliber, NO (even Spencer has conceded as much).

[chiliD]

Dickey Betts was quite good right from the start. He fueled Duane with his great compositions every bit as much as Duane fueled him with his masterful licks. Also ABB would never reach the heights they did without Betts key contributions. Most of their hits came from his hand, with Gregg being a pretty close second. As for his instrumental abilities, the fact that he could carry on as the band's solo guitarist after Duane's death, even taking the band to further heights of popularity, should be proof of his guitar mastery. I'll never take anything away from Duane though; even Eric Clapton was blown away by his playing in Miami. And I'll give you your key point, that he certainly pushed DB to his guitar picking limits.

You also make the mistake many others do in equating Jeremy's prowess on the instrument with Kirwan's. Spencer was no match in that regard, so much so that Green's last masterpiece with the band, the Then Play On project, didn't even require Spencer. That was all Green + Kirwan on those layered riffs. Jeremy was a master of the stage, a competent slide guitarist into the bargain, a great rock n roller and parody "character", but an axemeister of Green or Kirwan's caliber, NO (even Spencer has conceded as much).

I made no mistake, you misinterpreted my comment. I know very well who's on Then Play On. I never inferred, implied that Jeremy was anywhere near the guitarist of Green or Kirwan. BUT, Peter pushed Jeremy as well...not as much as a guitarist (but, Jeremy went from "competent" slide player, to a master slide player during that stretch as well), but as a performer. Sure, Jeremy admits he was "lazy", but that he became who he became during his Fleetwood Mac tenure was more from prodding from Peter (who was pretty much a perfectionist).

[slipkid]

I'll give you that, the main thrust of the article, but Green's FM constitution without Kirwan is like ABB without Betts. Or of another vein, Lennon without McCartney. Still good, but nowhere near complete. That was my main point. It could also be argued - very easily IMO - that Kirwan's guitar pulse shone every bit as bright as Green's in the blues-rock Fleetwood Mac. Then Play On is proof of that, beyond their late stage appearances where Kirwan really took flight. Spencer should not even be mentioned here. Great stage presence, but not a guitar master.

BTW why bring up DK's alcoholism when Green's mental deterioration was even more abrupt, one likewise fueled by drugs and booze. Best to keep an even hand here.

Green was writing great songs with John Mayall and Fleetwood Mac before Kirwan joined. I don't think it's the same as Lennon/McCartney or Allman/Betts. Green was more like a big brother to Kirwan who took tutelage. As a songwriter, Kirwan was a quick study, and became an incredible songwriter. His contributions to "Then Play On" are essential. But it was more like "Peter, I've written a song, do you like it?" Green would respond: "As long as you think it's good, go for it." (paraphrasing)
Kirwan would seek Green's approval, and Green would try to build Kirwan's confidence.


As a guitarist, he was by no means close to Peter Green. We are talking about arguably the greatest british guitarist ever. Kirwan's vibrato technique is almost unrivaled, but in an improvisational role he wasn't in Green's league.


I only mentioned Kirwan's alcohol problem to point out that he had difficulty taking a leadership role after Green left the band. Green left a void that FM didn't recover from until Buckingham/Nicks, by then a much different band.

I'm not trying to put Kirwan down, just look at my avatar. I love his work through Bare Trees. It's just that we're talking about Peter Green.

[snoot]

I made no mistake, you misinterpreted my comment. I know very well who's on Then Play On. I never inferred, implied that Jeremy was anywhere near the guitarist of Green or Kirwan. BUT, Peter pushed Jeremy as well...not as much as a guitarist (but, Jeremy went from "competent" slide player, to a master slide player during that stretch as well), but as a performer. Sure, Jeremy admits he was "lazy", but that he became who he became during his Fleetwood Mac tenure was more from prodding from Peter (who was pretty much a perfectionist).

Well in all fairness, I can't argue with your points there. And as the band's chief "pusher" (hmmm, better choice of words? :shocked:), Green was unrivalled indeed.

[snoot]

Green was writing great songs with John Mayall and Fleetwood Mac before Kirwan joined. I don't think it's the same as Lennon/McCartney or Allman/Betts. Green was more like a big brother to Kirwan who took tutelage. As a songwriter, Kirwan was a quick study, and became an incredible songwriter. His contributions to "Then Play On" are essential. But it was more like "Peter, I've written a song, do you like it?" Green would respond: "As long as you think it's good, go for it." (paraphrasing) Kirwan would seek Green's approval, and Green would try to build Kirwan's confidence.

Ok so far, so good. Though I do think the Lennon/McCartney and Allman/Betts analogies have merit, with a touch of bending to fit the circumstances.

As a guitarist, he was by no means close to Peter Green.
We are talking about arguably the greatest british guitarist ever. Kirwan's vibrato technique is almost unrivaled, but in an improvisational role he wasn't in Green's league.

Cannot agree with you here. DK was scaling new heights towards the end, into uncharted territory in many ways, and some have even claimed was beginning to surpass Peter (though I fully admit that is open to argument). The fact remains that by the end, the two became twin faces of the same FM coin. It was damn near impossible to consider one's weight without the other. That is my main point.

Pete the greatest British guitar player ever? No. That's an overreach IMO.

I only mentioned Kirwan's alcohol problem to point out that he had difficulty taking a leadership role after Green left the band.

Fair enough. But couldn't it be argued that Green was succumbing (and later succumbed) to the same phantoms and pressure, the weight of being front and center with all eyes upon him? Wasn't that one of the key reasons he brought Danny aboard, only to be soon blown away by the protégé's innate - and quickly blossoming - talent? Of course Pete couldn't have been happier with Kirwan's progress, as he helped make it happen (no doubt about that).

Someday you will fully appreciate just how much Peter and Danny had in common. It's almost eerie the more you size it up.

Green left a void that FM didn't recover from until Buckingham/Nicks, by then a much different band.

WRONG! Ever hear of Bob Welch? (and perhaps to a lesser extent, Bob Weston, but that's another - and secondary - story). Plus the emergence of Christine as a large force in the band.

Also FMac was never huge in the USA during the Green era, as opposed to Europe where they ruled. The Kirwan-Welch period actually increased their fame in the States. And without Welch, Buckingham-Nicks would never have been discovered by Mick, as it was Welch who talked the band to relocating to SoCal, the place he called home.

I'm not trying to put Kirwan down, just look at my avatar. I love his work through Bare Trees. It's just that we're talking about Peter Green.

Well then we'll have to agree to disagree. While Peter was slowly imploding, Danny was surging ahead. There's no way around that fact. Green may have been the main engine in the Mac machine, but he was beginning to run out of gas as Danny was ramping it up on full burn. Care to argue there?

I think there is one thing you and I will fully agree on: that it was a great shame that those two couldn't have played on. Now not to leave you on a bad note, but who's fault was that? :cool:

[slipkid]

Cannot agree with you here. DK was scaling new heights towards the end, into uncharted territory in many ways, and some have even claimed was beginning to surpass Peter (though I fully admit that is open to argument). The fact remains that by the end, the two became twin faces of the same FM coin. It was damn near impossible to consider one's weight without the other. That is my main point.


From the concerts I hear towards the end, there's still no doubt who is the true lead guitarist, and who had more of a rhythm role. Kirwan's solos live never deviated much show to show. All Green wanted to do was improvise. I don't know where you get your information on those who claim Kirwan was surpassing Peter, certainly not the liner notes, and books I have read. Peter Green was at the peak of his powers as a guitarist when he left the band 5/25/70.


Pete the greatest British guitar player ever? No. That's an overreach IMO.


I said "arguably". I think many on this board will back me up. After all, this is the Peter Green forum. :nod:


Fair enough. But couldn't it be argued that Green was succumbing (and later succumbed) to the same phantoms and pressure, the weight of being front and center with all eyes upon him? Wasn't that one of the key reasons he brought Danny aboard, only to be soon blown away by the protégé's innate - and quickly blossoming - talent? Of course Pete couldn't have been happier with Kirwan's progress, as he helped make it happen (no doubt about that).

Someday you will fully appreciate just how much Peter and Danny had in common. It's almost eerie the more you size it up.


First of all, Peter didn't bring Danny aboard. Mick Fleetwood was the one who brought him into the band via the manager. Peter was relieved that duties would then be shared instead of he carrying the load. Green also used to give Kirwan a hard time. He used to call him "Young Eyes", which drove Kirwan crazy. Danny was a pretty uptight person who took things way too seriously, Green's polar opposite. He didn't have great social interaction skills so he drank to overcome them. Peter Green took mind altering drugs because he thought they were helping him create. All it did was bring on acute schizophrenia.





WRONG! Ever hear of Bob Welch? (and perhaps to a lesser extent, Bob Weston, but that's another - and secondary - story). Plus the emergence of Christine as a large force in the band.

Also FMac was never huge in the USA during the Green era, as opposed to Europe where they ruled. The Kirwan-Welch period actually increased their fame in the States. And without Welch, Buckingham-Nicks would never have been discovered by Mick, as it was Welch who talked the band to relocating to SoCal, the place he called home.


The band didn't have any headline success either in the states or Europe until the white album in 1975, that's just a fact. I didn't say the middle period didn't produce good music. Their former manager in 1974 was trying to discredit the legit FM with a phony product! Not a great time. It's just a fact that in terms of stature and album sales there was a lull in that five year period. Obviously the 1975-81 version of the band went on to obliterate billboard chart history. As for how Buckingham/Nicks came to be, let's just say I prefer to remember FM as a rock band. That's not Bob Welch's fault, just a right place, right time scenario to make millions of dollars.


Well then we'll have to agree to disagree. While Peter was slowly imploding, Danny was surging ahead. There's no way around that fact. Green may have been the main engine in the Mac machine, but he was beginning to run out of gas as Danny was ramping it up on full burn. Care to argue there?

I think there is one thing you and I will fully agree on: that it was a great shame that those two couldn't have played on. Now not to leave you on a bad note, but who's fault was that? :cool



Ok I get it, you're not a fan of the purist blues FM, Kirwan was great, and that's fine. Peter Green was going to leave Fleetwood Mac anyway eventually, drugs or not. He was becoming bored being the rock star. You had three guitarists (egos) that had to have their space of songs night after night, too many chefs and no cooks. The loss is that with the drugs he dropped out of the music business completely. Had he been clean, we could've had some great exploratory "world music".

[snoot]

From the concerts I hear towards the end, there's still no doubt who is the true lead guitarist, and who had more of a rhythm role. Kirwan's solos live never deviated much show to show. All Green wanted to do was improvise. I don't know where you get your information on those who claim Kirwan was surpassing Peter, certainly not the liner notes, and books I have read. Peter Green was at the peak of his powers as a guitarist when he left the band 5/25/70.

Right, and like the young Kirwan was going to step all over Green's toes with reckless abandon as he saw fit. And please dont forget that improvistion and structure are twin faces of the creative process. Both are needed to produce real magic.

As for surpassing Green, we may be sort of blurring aspects of larger FM themes here. I'm mostly talking about their overall contributions towards the end, not merely their guitar prowess. On both fronts though, the two were beginning to run head and head, so much so that Green was starting to feel a bit challenged, even threatened at times, by the upstart kid he originally freely encouraged. To what extent this all played out only those on the scene truly know. Maybe Jeremy has a few recollections he may choose to add.

I said "arguably". I think many on this board will back me up. After all, this is the Peter Green forum. :nod:

Right, one which I am currently participating on. And once again IMO, he was not. Now you do allow touches of dissention here, right? :D

First of all, Peter didn't bring Danny aboard. Mick Fleetwood was the one who brought him into the band via the manager.

You're really splitting hairs now. I'm sure they both had a direct hand in his enlistment, most likely in equal measure. Green was not caught off guard or surprised by the lad from Boilerhouse! Moreover, he had more to do with DK's development than any other member of the group.

Peter was relieved that duties would then be shared instead of he carrying the load. Green also used to give Kirwan a hard time. He used to call him "Young Eyes", which drove Kirwan crazy. Danny was a pretty uptight person who took thinks way too seriously, Green's polar opposite. He didn't have great social interaction skills so he drank to overcome them. Peter Green took mind altering drugs because he thought they were helping him create. All it did was bring on acute schizophrenia.

I know the story too, well, as best as it can be stitched together. "Young Eyes" could also be seen as endearing, even if DK didn't like it. As for the drinking aspect, what do you think most young musicians - especially at that ripe young age - were doing back then but drinking and/or smoking, often excessively. Danny was no different! His drinking got worse as time went on. Gee, where have we seen THAT before? Peter, in the same vein, was increasingly indulging in various drug experiments, only difference being his candle burned out much quicker with the heavier stuff he was ingesting (bouts of schizophrenia + depression aside).

The band didn't have any headline success either in the states or Europe until the white album in 1975, that's just a fact.

FM were doing quite well across Europe during the Green era, far better than in the States where they were still almost unknown. There was a big difference in the recognition factor between the two continents at that time.

I didn't say the middle period didn't produce good music. Their former manager in 1974 was trying to discredit the legit FM with a phony product! Not a great time. It's just a fact that in terms of stature and album sales there was a lull in that five year period.

What you said was Green left a void that FM didn't recover from until Buckingham/Nicks, by then a much different band.

I'll agree with a void being created, that's not a reach when your principal driver exits stage right, but there never was any "recovery" some 5 odd years later. The surviving members just put their heads together and decided to march on, with Danny and Jeremy co-leading the way at the outset. Certainly it was a disconcerting thing considering they lost their leader and chief mojo, but they pulled it off nonetheless, full of bumps and ruts along the way. The fact remains they took their name and popularity to greater heights afterwards, on a gradual, ever-increasing basis. That's just a fact dude; I know as I was there throughout the period. Also, how could there be a "lull" in sales in that period when they never had big sales in the States to begin with until after Peter left the band? Not blockbuster sales, but substantial ones nonetheless in the Kirwan/Welch (aka middle) era.

Obviously the 1975-81 version of the band went on to obliterate billboard chart history. As for how Buckingham/Nicks came to be, let's just say I prefer to remember FM as a rock band. That's not Bob Welch's fault, just a right place, right time scenario to make millions of dollars.

That's cool, I can appreciate those who would have preferred the FM sound & style staying frozen in time (or eras), but the long hard road (and changing personnel) dictated something far different. From practically day one, they were a constantly evolving sound front -- yes even in the "purer" PG blues-rock era, particularly once Kirwan came aboard. As I see it, Fleetwood and Green begat Kirwan, Kirwan's burnout then begat Welch's more prominent rise, Welch's burnout begat Buckingham's discovery, and Buckingham begat Nicks by pressing for her inclusion in the band. And then of course came superstardom, and straddling new heights.

Ok I get it, you're not a fan of the purist blues FM, Kirwan was great, and that's fine.

Wrong. I own all the old Mac stuff, and appreciate the Peter Green era in equal measure. He remains the founder and original driving force of Fleetwood Mac in my eyes, above anyone else - including Mick - since it was he that really got the ball rolling. But that's not what I'm arguing here. In fact, far from it.

Peter Green was going to leave Fleetwood Mac anyway, drugs or not. The loss is that with the drugs he dropped out of the music business completely. Had he been clean, we could've had some great exploratory "world music".

He simply overdid it, with a personality that lent itself towards that kind of indulgence. How is it you can lament his drug peccadilloes - or at least size them up for what they're worth - but then cut Kirwan no similar slack with his alcohol and personality shortcomings? Is it because one smiled as he went down, while the other growled? Or is it the love of pure blues that causes such blind spots? :confused:

[slipkid]

Right, and like the young Kirwan was going to step all over Green's toes with reckless abandon as he saw fit.

I think I read this from the liner notes from either "The Vaudville Years" or "Showbiz Blues". When Peter Green was convinced to come back to replace Spencer on the US winter '71 tour, PG set ground rules. He was not to play any solos, or sing. Sometime during that tour, DK threw a beer bottle aimed at PG's head in frustration. I've also read that on some shows during that tour all they did was a long jam based on "Black Magic Woman". It was at one of those shows Kirwan threw the bottle because he couldn't keep up with Green.


As for surpassing Green, we may be sort of blurring aspects of larger FM themes here. I'm mostly talking about their overall contributions towards the end, not merely their guitar prowess. On both fronts though, the two were beginning to run head and head, so much so that Green was starting to feel a bit challenged, even threatened at times, by the upstart kid he originally freely encouraged. To what extent this all played out only those on the scene truly know. Maybe Jeremy has a few recollections he may choose to add.



I think you live in SoCal Fleetwood Mac world.
Since the last FM single with Green was "The Green Manalishi" (a PG song), I don't think he was challenged by any of Kirwan's songs. You're creating a rivalry that Green was not on this planet to recognize. He was trying to reach the fourth dimension while the rest of the band wanted to be rich. Yes, please Mr. Spencer respond. :laugh: In fact, Green said later that he thought "Dragonfly" was Kirwan's best song with the band.



Right, one which I am currently participating on. And once again IMO, he was not. Now you allow dissension here, right? :D

OK just for fun, who do you think is? If his initials are R. B., I'll say ok. Otherwise, it's a debate.


I know the story too, well, as best we can stitch it together. "Young Eyes" could also be seen as endearing, even if DK didn't like it. As for the drinking aspect, what do you think most young musicians - especially at that ripe young age - were doing back then but drinking and/or smoking, often excessively. Danny was no different! His drinking got worse as time went on. Gee, where have we seen THAT before? Peter, in the same vein, was increasingly indulging in various drugs, only difference being his candle burned out much quicker with the heavier stuff (bouts of schizophrenia + depression aside).

It's all how you handle your booze. By 1972, nobody in the band was speaking to him.



He also overdid it, with a personality that lent itself towards that kind of indulgence. How is it you can justify his drug peccadilloes - or at least size them up for what they're worth - but then cut Kirwan no similar slack with his booze and personality shortcomings? Is it because one smiled as he went down, while the other growled? Or is it the love of pure blues that causes such blind spots? :confused:


Maybe I should ask the same question, why are you debating Green's impact on the band? Danny Kirwan was not an original member. He did not steal any thunder from Green's talents as Green was battling personal demons. No one else on this board has been so contentious about this period. I can't believe I'm debating this because I like Kirwan's work very much. He's the reason I own Future Games, and Bare Trees.

[snoot]

I've also read that on some shows during that tour all they did was a long jam based on "Black Magic Woman". It was at one of those shows Kirwan threw the bottle because he couldn't keep up with Green.

Wouldn't you have thrown a bottle at his head if that was all he insisted on playing? And "keep up with him"? Green was going mad at that point! It was no doubt more out of frustration, like you might be tempted to do when your trusty turntable keeps skipping on a record. Also, you have no idea of all the details of why just such an incident erupted, or what was on Kirwan's mind for that matter, unless you were there. And even then, you may not have known all the particulars! Green could be quite frustrating to be around at that time, probably more than young Kirwan. Just look at the ground rules he insisted on setting during the end of that tour! WTF. Welch must have come into the band like a breath of fresh air.

You're creating a rivalry that Green was not on this planet to recognize.

He was beginning to feel a bit threatened by Danny, sorry you never picked up on the full story. He was also starting to lose his marbles. That's just a fact, and this was during his tenure with the Mac, not after. Sorry to burst any precious bubbles here, but this isn't breaking news. I'm certainly not gloss-coating anything either. And if you couldn't see or appreciate Kirwan's stunning rise, tough. I know Peter certainly did.

OK just for fun, who do you think is? If his initials are R. B., I'll say ok. Otherwise, it's a debate.

Good question, but honestly there are too many to consider. I could never pick a singular figure, just like I wouldn't be able to on the American side. A lot of great gun slingers out there, then and now, and you named some of the better ones earlier. So ask yourself, was Bach greater than Beethoven, or Wagner for that matter? Did Rembrandt trump Dürer? Did Segovia meet his match in Williams or Parkening, et al? You know how it goes on anything referencing music or the arts. It's all rather subjective in the end. Just look at the joke that Rolling Stone magazine is on the subject, with their "rankings". Pffft. Btw Roy is good, but not the best. ;)

It's all how you handle your booze. By 1972, nobody in the band was speaking to him.

It was only towards the very end that he fully alienated the fold, but I'll freely concede he was getting increasingly difficult to work with as time went on (shades of his mentor, Herr Green, at the end, no?). Mick never wanted to cut him, but Welch insisted -- and for understandable reasons by that point. The others signed on without reluctance, and Mick dished up his walking papers. And you're right - it's all how you handle your booze ... or, er, drugs. Touché.

Maybe I should ask the same question, why are you debating Green's impact on the band?

I haven't, you're just choosing to view it that way.

Danny Kirwan was not an original member.

Neither was John McVie, or Christine, or Bob Welch , or Buckingham & Nicks. So what's your point in bringing that up? Denny Laine first led the Moody Blues. Does that mean he trumps his successor, Justin Hayward, and his immense contributions?

He did not steal any thunder from Green's talents as Green was battling personal demons.

Good to see you recognize they both were battling personal demons, and by the end of their respective tenures in the band, BIG TIME. Go back to what I spoke of earlier, the eerie analogies. Also PG was not at the height of his guitar powers when he left the group. He was clearly beginning to lose his mind by that point, and everyone around him knew it and were hoping and praying for a turnaround.

No one else on this board has been so contentious about this period.

Contentious, in trying to give DK his chops? In stating he was rising as Green was slipping at the end? I thought that was all too apparent. But if you feel I ever said Kirwan bested Green, you're wrong. Never said it, or feel it. They were simply a great duo that fueled each other to greater artistic heights, esp as time went on. Then Play On is proof enough of that. I would have LOVED to see a follow-up to that project, as I suspect you would have!

Sadly neither of them reached their full potential, either as a tandem or as soloists. Green's story was simply more abrupt, and thus more acute. But even through TPO, you can catch glimpses of those demons closing in on him, beyond the awesome - stunning really - project he engineered. It was his crowning achievement.

I can't believe I'm debating this because I like Kirwan's work very much. He's the reason I own Future Games, and Bare Trees.

You're far more critical of DK, and forgiving of PG. Much as you feel I am, the other way around. You really need to replace that DK avatar with a PG one. :p Good discussion though.

[slipkid]

He was beginning to feel a bit threatened by Danny, sorry you never picked up on the full story. He was also starting to lose his marbles. That's just a fact, and this was during his tenure with the Mac, not after. Sorry to burst any precious bubbles here, but this isn't breaking news. I'm certainly not gloss-coating anything either. And if you couldn't see or appreciate Kirwan's stunning rise, tough. I know Peter certainly did.


You're related to him in some way, aren't you? "If you couldn't see or appreciate...tough"!?!? How many times do I have to say how great a songwriter Kirwan was?? I was only pointing out Kirwan's skills as a guitarist weren't on Green's level. From what I've read (which I take as fact), Green's biggest problem was that he was sick of being a celebrity. The drugs only made it worse.
I can see your point if Green left FM, and became a successful solo artist (ala Clapton), but that wasn't the case. Danny Kirwan didn't drive Peter Green into a life of menial jobs, and mental institutions.





You're far more critical of DK, and forgiving of PG. Much as you feel I am, the other way around. You really need to replace that DK avatar with a PG one. :p Good discussion though.


You said it, this started with your post about a blog on Peter Green complaining that Danny Kirwan didn't get enough credit. Since you weren't going to point out Kirwan's shortcomings, someone needed to. I don't need to be lectured about the sad end of this era, I think I know enough. Now if Jeremy Spencer cares to correct me, I will take his word as gospel. Aside from that, yes this has been a great discussion. You have brought life back to this board, I'll say that. :D

[snoot]

You're related to him in some way, aren't you?

lol no, no, trust me, I'm not. Short of perhaps in a "kindred spirits" way. Danny has always held a special soft spot for me, I suppose because he has forever been relegated to taking up ground in Green's shadow - and like Peter, had a rather sad demise. Pete's still a legend to a legion of fans. What's Danny got?

Also I was a pretty early fan of the band, yes back when most were saying "Fleetwood Who?" [and if you go back far enough you know this was not merely a humorous cliché once upon a time]. It wasn't always easy watching the band go thru its growing pains. I was as blown away as anyone else when they hit the stratosphere with Buckingham & Nicks, after watching Bob Welch throw in the towel. I also hated to see Bob Weston go, another great Mac axe. But when I first heard Over My Head all over the radio waves in late '75, I knew something big was in the air. Then came Rhiannon, and Say You Love Me, and the third wave was on!

"If you couldn't see or appreciate...tough"!?!? How many times do I have to say how great a songwriter Kirwan was?? I was only pointing out Kirwan's skills as a guitarist weren't on Green's level.

And I keep saying WRONG WRONG WRONG. Why ? Because 1) On the songwriting front, they had become near equals. Green's light shone a bit brighter mostly because his hand at it started earlier, and his style was more unconventional and gripping (again, like the Lennon to McCartney analogy I tried to draw, in a somewhat diminished way). But any way you look at it, Kirwan was quickly catching up. And 2) On the guitar playing front, Kirwan was neck and neck with Green in the end, though you refuse to have it.

Now I'm gonna let you in on a little secret here: the majority of those great licks you hear on Then Play On were Danny's, not Pete's. The only reason I give Green the "ace's nod" on that project is because he brought such soulful compositions to the table, his best ever (though he produced plenty of memorable stuff earlier). But as I keep stating, by that point it is really difficult to separate the two, in both arenas! It would have been interesting to think of what TPO 2 might have sounded like!

From what I've read (which I take as fact), Green's biggest problem was that he was sick of being a celebrity. The drugs only made it worse.

That was a big part of it for sure. Those mind-blowing drug indulgences were unfortunately making him increasingly neurotic. What you probably don't fully appreciate is that he was flipping the band out too. It was not a happy or harmonious unit by 1970, trust me. Those nutty robes he donned, the crucifix, the radical change of appearance, the mindless philanthropy he was pushing when the group wasn't even living luxurious lives as it was! He was turning off the world, and dropping out big time. In fact, as we came to see, to a point of no return. It was reminiscent of one * Jim Morrison* roughly a year later!

How much Peter was a victim of others (the doping incident), or himself and his heady appetite for riding high, or the world at large as it was then framed in his mind, is anyone's guess. But please remember, it was he who went south by 1970, and not Danny. All he left Danny and the others was basically high and dry - a flock without it's shepherd.

I can see your point if Green left FM, and became a successful solo artist (ala Clapton), but that wasn't the case. Danny Kirwan didn't drive Peter Green into a life of menial jobs, and mental institutions.

Well you're losing me here now. I have never stated or implied Danny drove Peter over the edge if that's what you mean. Not in any way. But did Kirwan represent one more "threat" of sorts to Green's increasingly insecure world? Yes, in the end anyway. He could see his young colleague rising to the occasion where he was beginning to stall and falter, and before long, irreparably so. And yet paradoxically, he was pretty much at the height of his artistic powers when the self-destruction set in! Reality was slipping from his grasp rapidly, and I'm sure he knew it, or at least sensed it. With it went his cutting edge prowess, and the requisite energy to drive himself forward.

You said it, this started with your post about a blog on Peter Green, complaining that Danny Kirwan didn't get enough credit.

Which he still doesn't, neither for TPO, nor from a total FM perspective. *Except* for those who know the more complete story.

Since you weren't going to point out Kirwan's shortcomings, someone needed to.

Please, I have never glossed over Danny's shortcomings with anything I've presented here. Go back and read what I wrote. Besides, the main thrust of this discussion has mostly been centered around PG, starting with that article presented by the OP. You're just more sensitive to anything I spell out regarding your guitar hero, one we both admire (and yes, I know you appreciate Kirwan too, but in a sort of deprecating, "in the shadow of Greenie" way. At least that's how I see it).

I don't need to be lectured about the sad end of this era, I think I know enough.

No lectures here. I'm just putting the cards on the table as non-selectively as I can, and filling in certain things you may not be familiar with. No one - not you, not me, not even Jeremy - can claim to know the whole story.

Now if Jeremy Spencer cares to correct me, I will take his word as gospel.

Well Jeremy could certainly answer a lot of questions, so could Bob Welch who is seen here at times. But let's keep in mind even Jeremy wasn't around that much during the TPO sessions -- IIRC he was off making his own solo project tapes. And of course Bob had yet to arrive on the scene, though I'm sure he heard lots of stories about the early period while he was a member of the band. John McVie would be great to hear from too, as he is always rather candid in his interviews when he does choose to speak out. Whether any of them would be willing to open up too much on this subject I can't say.

Aside from that, yes this has been a great discussion. You have brought life back to this board, I'll say that. :D

You're good too, mostly cuz you fight back and don't mind sparring a bit. That's a compliment btw. :laugh:

And yes you said it, from lazy, hazy, crazy SoCal. :thumbsup:

Circling the wagons, just in case. Jb

[dino]

Snoot, sounds like you were around the band or saw them say, pre 1972.
Would be cool to hear. Otherwise your "info "comes from books, right?

I just think it's useless to compare Danny and Peter. They were both amazing, although I agree that Danny was more limited. As for "Then Play on", Danny plays lead on his songs and "Oh well", but that's it, right? It easy to differentiate between to the two, just listen to the vibrato.

[slipkid]

Snoot, I think we're just going in circles with no end, so I'll just leave it where it stands. I maybe too old now to have a guitar hero, but I certainly had a drum hero in Bill Bruford as a teenager.

As to the neck and neck guitar front, there is a B.B. King cover on Youtube from New Orleans 1/3o or 31/70 (I call that near the end) that has a four minute Peter Green solo. I don't want to post it to continue this thread, but I can pretty much say without question that Danny Kirwan could not duplicate that solo. This isn't an insult, many other guitarists couldn't do it either. He may have been able to pick the notes, but not with the soul, passion, and keen sense of dynamics that you hear coming from Green's hands. That solo I feel is the greatest and simplest example as to why PG is so loved by other guitarists, professional and amateur alike.


I guess I'm making up for lost time with a band that I didn't discover the first time around, at least the pre '75 version. Even I have a copy of 1988's FM's Greatest Hits that is exclusively '75-'88. It hasn't been played in eons, but maybe I'll pull it out soon.

I bought "Perfect Days" about three weeks ago, which has the same cover as "Madison Blues", but with only half the songs (I thought it was Madison Blues :mad:). It's certainly is interesting to hear alternate versions of the Kiln House tunes with some unreleased material thrown in.

[snoot]

Snoot, sounds like you were around the band or saw them say, pre 1972. Would be cool to hear. Otherwise your "info "comes from books, right?

Never read any book on the band or the musicians within. Plenty of interviews and assorted articles along the way though, trust me on that. Plus I was fortunate to see a a good slice of the band in its formative, you know pre-B&N, years. There was a day when youngins used to sit around and really talk about musical bands and their personnel, swap stories and albums + tapes, compare the latest minutiae, and really align with their musical heroes. Imagine that! Now its all a flash bam boom MTV-colored world. Big difference as I see it. Sadly, the digital conversion brought certain downsides with it. Sometimes you don't even get those great liner or sleeve notes so as to learn more!

I just think it's useless to compare Danny and Peter. They were both amazing, although I agree that Danny was more limited. As for "Then Play on", Danny plays lead on his songs and "Oh well", but that's it, right? It easy to differentiate between to the two, just listen to the vibrato.

Agreed, and yes both were amazing. Peter cut such a blaze early on that even Mayall was genuinely impressed - and that says a lot. John McVie felt he might even ace Clapton in time, and this he proclaimed while he was still a Bluesbreaker! And when someone of the stature of BB King says Green was the only guitar picker who ever made him sweat, what more need be said? Peter remains in the crème de la crème category of modern axe slingers. His compositions were also out of this world: Oh Well, Albatross, Black Magic Woman, Love That Burns, Underway, Green Manalishi, Show Biz Blues ... you could go on and on. And all over but a two year period.

Peter gave Danny free reign during the TPO sessions. Truth was, he was relying on him to carry much of the weight. The majority of what you hear is Kirwan. But Peter blazed up a storm on it too, so there is no shortage of his riffs and licks either. As I said earlier, the blurring was greater than ever. The greatest crime was that we never saw the follow-up to it in proper form. Danny also did some nice tradeoffs with Jeremy on Kiln House. There's some tight interplay there when you really put your ear to it. The songs may not have been as earth shattering, as they weren't dealt from the utter depths of despair, but Spencer and Kirwan certainly made the most of that transitional hand they were dealt with their instruments (both stringed and vocal).

[snoot]

Snoot, I think we're just going in circles with no end, so I'll just leave it where it stands. I maybe too old now to have a guitar hero, but I certainly had a drum hero in Bill Bruford as a teenager.

Sometimes you have to circle about a bit to get what need be said out. It makes for good discussion too, assuming things don't overheat, or get too personal. If it generates further discussion or gets people thinking, it's worth the effort. Afterall, that's what we're here for primarily, right? I think we all have musical heroes, both players and songsmiths. If not, we probably wouldn't be chatting on a forum like this right now. Even the biggest musicians have theirs. Green used to adore Hank Marvin of the Shadows, as you no doubt know.

As for BB, that man could tap the sticks with the best of 'em. Not a bad choice at all. Some interesting stuff he did with King Crimson and Patrick Moraz later on too.

As to the neck and neck guitar front, there is a B.B. King cover on Youtube from New Orleans 1/3o or 31/70 (I call that near the end) that has a four minute Peter Green solo. I don't want to post it to continue this thread, but I can pretty much say without question that Danny Kirwan could not duplicate that solo. This isn't an insult, many other guitarists couldn't do it either. He may have been able to pick the notes, but not with the soul, passion, and keen sense of dynamics that you hear coming from Green's hands. That solo I feel is the greatest and simplest example as to why PG is so loved by other guitarists, professional and amateur alike.

Good point you make. In the pure soul and emotive front, Peter was hard to top. When he let loose and ripped it up, dust was sure to fly. Danny had a better sense of rhythm than Pete though, and stuck to structure more. They could both improv masterfully, but Green aimed for the clouds while Danny kept his feet more planted. That's why the two worked so well together. They had somewhat contrasting styles, but could also mimic eachother if and as needed, and always find the requisite common ground. You never knew what you were gonna get when the two cut loose. Call it part of the magic.

If only Spencer had devoted himself more toward ramping things up back then. He had all the potential in the world, but never could get his mind and heart in sync with Peter's overall vision. That's why Danny took on such a large role so quickly. He was a better, more enthusiastic learner, and he brought in the kind of groove and bounce Peter was looking for. Danny may have brought the rock/pop sensibilities to the band, but that was exactly what Peter wanted - and had been looking for. For that reason, it was just as much Green as Kirwan that shifted the band from "purer" blues, never forget that. If PG didn't want that turn of direction, it wouldn't have happened! That wasn't tolerance, it was synthesis. Purposeful synthesis.

I guess I'm making up for lost time with a band that I didn't discover the first time around, at least the pre '75 version. Even I have a copy of 1988's FM's Greatest Hits that is exclusively '75-'88. It hasn't been played in eons, but maybe I'll pull it out soon.

Well you've made up for lost time then, that's for sure. If only more would take the exploratory plunge and immerse a little, they'd be surprised at what they had been missing out on! I am always floored by Lindsey and what he brings, both with his instrument and on the production side. What a wiz! Then you've got Stevie with all her charms. But to overlook Green at his height, or Kirwan's creative riffing with Greenie and Spencer and Welch, or what Bob did so smoothly with Weston and then on his own, is to miss the bigger picture. And if that weren't enough, you have Christy's great ditties and vocal prowess. Her backing vocals rival her lead ones, starting with Kiln House!! THAT is the wonder of Fleetwood Mac. Pity the post-75ers who don't realize what they're missing out on!

Now I realize this section is mostly for axe bangers and blues enthusiasts, Greenmeisters as it were (and that's cool since that's where it all started), but as we all know, FM was so much more than that. The diversity of their sound - all overlapping mind you, and born from an undiluted blues-rock core - is hard to top in rock n roll annuls.

I bought "Perfect Days" about three weeks ago, which has the same cover as "Madison Blues", but with only half the songs (I thought it was Madison Blues ). It's certainly is interesting to hear alternate versions of the Kiln House tunes with some unreleased material thrown in.

Ain't it the truth. Those sessions were better than many give credit to. A pretty heady accomplishment considering the band was fighting off the shellshock of losing their undisputed leader. It was touch and go as to whether they were going to just call it quits back then. Jeremy flat out rocks on that production, he was never more front and center. His guitar work with Danny was really nice too during those sessions. And then you had CM adding some cherry and timely backing vocals, and a few tickles on the keys. That album should be in every true Macsters crib. And it is not as far a throw from TPO as many would have you believe, if you listen to it closely. It was just a milder, a not so obvious, form of musical angst, cut from a different cloth. Not as gripping as TPO of course (Peter's pain was hard to match), but certainly a bit smoother around the edges. And the shift - not reinvention - continued.

[snoot]

Oh and as for rhythmic muscle, I don't know if there's a better, more dependable tandem in the biz than Mick and John. It was from that backbone that the others found their footing. They are certainly in the elite of the elite category in that regard, and are all too often overlooked in Mac discussions.

They also possibly top the all-time list as uber scoutmasters, rivalling Mayall himself. DAYUM

[slipkid]

Oh and as for rhythmic muscle, I don't know if there's a better, more dependable tandem in the biz than Mick and John. It was from that backbone that the others found their footing. They are certainly in the elite of the elite category in that regard, and are all too often overlooked in Mac discussions.

They also possibly top the all-time list as uber scoutmasters, rivalling Mayall himself. DAYUM

They are certainly in the top three. Along with John Entwistle/Keith Moon '69-'73, and John Paul Jones/John Bonham. HM: Noel Redding/Mitch Mitchell. I know I've left off Bruce/Baker, but I always thought Baker played with ham hands. Of the above, McVie and Fleetwood were the best time keepers.

Ok, I swear this is my last post to this thread!

[stubbie7]

Okay, I have been following this thread and, I must say, been enjoying it immensely. After all, FM is one of my favorite subjects and all my friends (and my wife) are tired of hearing me talk about it. Just thought I would put in my 2 cents. If someone ever asks me who my favorite guitarist is I can never answer because in so many ways PG and DK are two sides of the same coin; I liked their work apart but thought that when they were together they took music to the most amazing heights. Sort of mixing my metaphor a little but when asked my favorite record album I can never choose between Bare Trees or Future games; always considered them the best double album ever and always thought that Bare Trees was more of an extension of the same thought that Future Games started.

In the last few years I think my FM library has doubled due to all the wonderful re-releases, new finds and bootlegs. For my money, Shrine'69 showcases early FM with some brilliant music and really demonstrates the heights to which DK and PG could take guitar playing. I swear that sometimes the sustain, tone and vibrato that Danny brings on Something Inside of Me can just bring me to my knees. And Peter's solo on Need Your Love So Bad does the same thing. Holy Cow! And really, Jeremy really shines on that album as well.

Anyway, I think that intelligently presented and thoughtful discussions like this one are really stimulating. They go beyond the meaningless discussions like who is the "best" guitar player ever. It comes down, so much, to personal choice and, for me, just where my head is at that particular moment. I have a friend that is always trying to get me started on a "who is better, Beatles or Rolling Stones" kind of discussion and I won't bite (seems like something two 15 year-olds would get into and 60 isn't that far away for me now). I would much rather participate in a discussion like this thread.

Thanks guys.

[seekerj]

[QUOTE=snoot;787461]WRONG! Ever hear of Bob Welch?

I just don't understand how anyone can even think of Welch as coming even close to Green, Kirwin, or Buckingham. I just don't see the same level of creativity in playing, or in songwriting.

I guess it's just me, but I've never understood the "Welch love". But I love Green, Kirwin, and Buckingham.

[Wouter Vuijk]

[QUOTE=snoot;787461]WRONG! Ever hear of Bob Welch?

I just don't understand how anyone can even think of Welch as coming even close to Green, Kirwin, or Buckingham. I just don't see the same level of creativity in playing, or in songwriting.

I guess it's just me, but I've never understood the "Welch love". But I love Green, Kirwin, and Buckingham.

It's Kirwan
I don't understand why so many people who seemingly adore the musician don't even know how his name is spelled. This goes to biographists as well. :mad:

[snoot]

Okay, I have been following this thread and, I must say, been enjoying it immensely. After all, FM is one of my favorite subjects and all my friends (and my wife) are tired of hearing me talk about it. Just thought I would put in my 2 cents. If someone ever asks me who my favorite guitarist is I can never answer because in so many ways PG and DK are two sides of the same coin; I liked their work apart but thought that when they were together they took music to the most amazing heights. Sort of mixing my metaphor a little but when asked my favorite record album I can never choose between Bare Trees or Future games; always considered them the best double album ever and always thought that Bare Trees was more of an extension of the same thought that Future Games started.

Twin bookends for sure. They almost sound like continuous or extended sessions. Kirwan really got on well with Welch musically when it came to layering their tunes. But if you go back to the entire run of releases back then, starting with English Rose, then Then Play On, Kiln House, followed by those bookends, and Penguin + Mystery To Me (another twin set really, though the Walker tracks clearly disrupt the flow on the former), you can really see how the Mac have constantly been shifting their sound, and not trying to start from scratch each go-round. In fact, the degree of overlaps are fairly consistent through each project once you critically size them up.

More pure blues rock on ER, a touch more straight up style R&R fused into TPO, then a slight 50's era retro homage - cool as hell IMO - added to Kiln House (mostly due to Jeremy getting his shot at a more front and center spot), then more straight up R&R on FG and BT (with but a hint of funk at times), and finally a touch of jazz pizazz added on Pn and MTM, all firmly grounded in a solid, guitar-driven rock n roll base.

In the last few years I think my FM library has doubled due to all the wonderful re-releases, new finds and bootlegs. For my money, Shrine'69 showcases early FM with some brilliant music and really demonstrates the heights to which DK and PG could take guitar playing. I swear that sometimes the sustain, tone and vibrato that Danny brings on Something Inside of Me can just bring me to my knees. And Peter's solo on Need Your Love So Bad does the same thing. Holy Cow! And really, Jeremy really shines on that album as well.

One thing I think we all agree on is the Mac were hard to beat on interplay; those tradeoffs are simply out of this world at times. So much going on, with so little clashing, both on the albums and on stage. That is their signature sound, the moniker really, of early and middle era FM, the multi axe attack.

I have always believed that if Bob Weston had not been dismissed, he and Bob Welch would have gone on to even bigger things likewise. Welch was just so burned out after the Heroes production that he basically threw in the towel. You have n0 idea how hard he worked to see that project through, and it took its toll. While the rest of the band and management whirled and swirled, he busted his balls. There's a lot of intricate stuff there in those mixes too, most of it by his solo hand. That it holds up well, admittedly with a touch of spottiness here and there (some critics have called it murkiness - pffft), is mostly to Bob's credit and hard work ethic (not to overlook some nice chips by Christy). It was also the first FM album that didn't feature a multi guitar front - though Sneaky Pete (Kleinow) did add a touch of steel.

Not to be overlooked, Heroes further paved the way for the West Coast sound that Buckingham & Nicks soon brought in waves.

Anyway, I think that intelligently presented and thoughtful discussions like this one are really stimulating. They go beyond the meaningless discussions like who is the "best" guitar player ever. It comes down, so much, to personal choice and, for me, just where my head is at that particular moment. I have a friend that is always trying to get me started on a "who is better, Beatles or Rolling Stones" kind of discussion and I won't bite (seems like something two 15 year-olds would get into and 60 isn't that far away for me now). I would much rather participate in a discussion like this thread.

Hallelujah. It's damn near impossible to find the proper criteria to set judgment standards. Without even leaving FM as case in point, does one choose Green's striving toward the clouds & nirvana over Kirwan's preference to more structure and rhythm-drive in free flight jams? What is one, if not without the other? How do you assess Spencer's early and effective use of the slide guitar? What about the jazzy, even funk laden chords Welch brought to the table, or the gorgeous fills Bob Weston was so noted for. And then you have Lindsey's fresh west coast sound. Did pop stylings EVER sound better? At the end of the day the Mac faithful have all been blessed that FM offered such an out of this world variety of guitar styles, all within a unified core. And for whatever reason, including the constant shifts in personnel, it worked!

You really hit one thing on the head. Discussions like this bring out the true core fans, the thinking ones. Chops to the OP also, for presenting the article that kicked this off.

[snoot]

QUOTE=snoot: WRONG! Ever hear of Bob Welch?

I just don't understand how anyone can even think of Welch as coming even close to Green, Kirwin, or Buckingham. I just don't see the same level of creativity in playing, or in songwriting.

No no, seekerj I beseech you! Put a good ear to Mystery To Me as perhaps the best example (but I could add French Kiss + Three Hearts just as easily). If you can't appreciate what Welch did there, those offbeat chord changes and riffs, or the gritty lappings he spun so effortlessly with Bob Weston, I don't know what to say. Then there is his fantastic vocal work with Christine. And if that's not enough, tell me if you have ever heard Mick and John work more dynamically? The rhythmic pulse on MTM is on another level altogether! There is some great jam flourishes going on throughout, plus some heady chord changes and unexpected shifts. That is some of the most compelling layering I've ever head, IMO worthy of the best of the others in Green + Kirwan (Then Play On), Spencer + Kirwan (Kiln House) or Kirwan + Welch (Bare Trees/Future Games).

I guess it's just me, but I've never understood the "Welch love". But I love Green, Kirwin, and Buckingham.

Now repeat after me: => I am going to go sit down, put on a quality set of headphones of Sennheiser/Yamaha quality or higher, dim the lights just a tad, and spin up Mystery To Me. I am going to put a truly critical ear to it, and while doing so I WILL NOT allow interruptions from my wife or girlfriend, or even my best friend should he offer to get me high (notwithstanding). Then I'm gonna come back and give my honest assessment to snoot and the greenies here, for better or worse. Now promise me you'll do that.

Whatever you report back I will respect. :p

PS. Review this just before you take the plunge (make sure to read to the bottom :laugh:)
http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showthread.php?t=15690&page=2

[snoot]

It's Kirwan

I don't understand why so many people who seemingly adore the musician don't even know how his name is spelled. This goes to biographists as well. :mad:

Yeah you do see this a lot, no? But I guess it's fairly understandible, considering how the name is pronounced. I say Kir-win as opposed to Kir-wan, but I suppose it can be pronounced both ways. Wonder what Danny would say on the matter? :shrug:

Hey I used to think it was Lindsay for a good long while, so I think we can all strive to be forgiving. ;)

[doodyhead]

Whatever you report back I will respect. :p

http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showthread.php?t=15690&page=2

maybe some of us are just old hippie bluespeople and we don't have to get Bob Welch


Oh Well.


doodyhead

But it's not like we don't

[snoot]

maybe some of us are just old hippie bluespeople and we don't have to get Bob Welch


Oh Well.


doodyhead

But it's not like we don't

Yeah I understand it, believe me. Some get thrown by his voice, others by the shades of jazz and funk he often fuses into his work. Or maybe his offbeat progression. But that ****er is as cool as they come. He is also an all-star performer on stage. Beyond that, I know of few other big guns from the past more thoroughly immersed in the digital conversion. He's also one of the easiest guys to talk to in the world, and smart as hell.

Hey don't mind me though, I love It's A Beautiful Day, the Moodies, Bread, the Carpenters and ABB in equal measure. The truest sign of hippy dippiness. :D To each their own though, blues rockers are a devoted bunch!

[snoot]

I should add that some consider the quasi-disco embellishments found fused within French Kiss and Three Hearts a faux paus. For blues enthusiasts in particular, that could be considered going overboard (or off the deep end), and exposure to it would be akin to ingesting the wrong kind of kool-aide. And in all fairness, with few exceptions disco did suck. But then, so did most of the punk and grunge and techno that followed on its heels. Even psychedelia, when carried to its improvisational-and-free-form-to-no-end limits, almost brought rock to its knees way back when.

But I happen to feel Bob's FK/TH pair were the best and most stylish fusion of rock and disco from the era, mostly because the disco elements are more of a draping, as opposed to the core or center. Plus it's metered ever so slightly. Boz Scaggs pulled it off likewise, at least on a swig of his stuff. As for Welch's post-FM productions, some were stronger than others. But if you can't appreciate at least a Best Of Welch collection, you flat out don't groove to BW, or appreciate his unique style and approach.

[doodyhead]

Yeah I understand it, believe me. , I love It's A Beautiful Day, the Moodies, Bread, the Carpenters and ABB in equal measure. The truest sign of hippy dippiness. :D To each their own though, blues rockers are a devoted bunch!

Where I go south with this is when everything turns into pop.
Its one thing to create music for music's sake, its quite another to craft pop tunes just to sell them. While many become stars by creating music, The music industry is just that... an industry. you might as well get Clay Aiken in your band.

"A Beautiful Day, the Moodies, Bread, the Carpenters and I assume you meant ABBA"

What do they have to do with anything? ((I get that It's a beautiful day was a SF band" but hardly prime movers in any cultural movement")

In the 60's no white folk really knew what the blues was. I have reason to believe they still don't.

Bob Welch is good in his own right. But Pop culture is just too fickle. "Another Roadside Attraction"

doodyhead

[snoot]

Where I go south with this is when everything turns into pop.

A lot does I agree, but certainly not everything. Sometimes things do evolve (devolve) out of control, or towards the maudlin. One simply has to be discerning.

Its one thing to create music for music's sake, its quite another to craft pop tunes just to sell them. While many become stars by creating music, The music industry is just that... an industry. you might as well get Clay Aiken in your band.

Fair point. But of course it all comes down to varying degrees, does it not? I mean I can listen to the Carpenters for something soft, then there's The Ohio Express (ouch). Both are well known pop outfits, only where the Carpenters' Solitaire (to use but one example) is fresh and moving, Yummy, Yummy Yummy is syrupy spuds. That's nothing more than bubblegum! My point is, there is good pop, and bad pop. There's also great pop. Much of that evolves over time into what we call standards.

As for canned music, the kind produced by the big production units solely for buckaroos and little more, that's considerably different than that done primarily for artistic achievement. True artists don't sell out cheap, whether they're pop, rock or blues constituted. Even at his quasi-discoed best, Bob Welch can't be used in the same breath as the Backstreet Boys, NKOTB, Milli Vanilli, or any of those other choreographed androids! [not by a sane mind anyway] Often you need look no further than who's producing the work, and who plays on it!

But even here things can get a tad blurred. There's not much Beach Boys on BB albums outside of their vocal tracks and sometimes a bit of Carl's guitar, but those are classic west coast tunes they produced all the same. Brian Wilson is widely considered a modern musical visionary of the first order; even McCartney freely tips his hat to him. But Wilson opted to employ the best WC session musicians money could by - and that formula obviously worked. To some it's "pop" and little more, to others it's surf music at its apex (Dick Dale and Ventures be silent). No thunder, no upheaval, no pain, just pure sunshine. OTOH when news broke The Monkees - an early example of a "prefab" invention if there ever was one - were doing the same thing, the gig was up. They hit the ground like a led balloon on full afterburners.

We also have to be real. Almost all art and music is produced for money one way or another. These guys have to make a living and feed themselves, plus have something in the kitty to help finance their next projects, whether it be from their own accounts or the record company ones. How do you possibly get around that? That doesn't equate to a "sell-out" by any means!

"A Beautiful Day, the Moodies, Bread, the Carpenters and I assume you meant ABBA"

No I was referring to the yankee ABB = Allman Brothers Band

What do they have to do with anything? ((I get that It's a beautiful day was a SF band" but hardly prime movers in any cultural movement")

Those were just a random handful of acts to show the range on what true hippie dippy types can groove to all at once. A fairly broad curve, from mellow yellow to southern fried rock, and running the gamut from weepy pop ballads to mean ol' jams. All from the same time frame mind you. Hey you may want to sample IABD if you want a taste of [I]cultural renaissance. No joking either, if you can handle a little electrified violin (ouch that must hit a blues junkie right where it counts, in the package). Talk about a walk on the wild side. [My guess is Sugarcane Harris is doing this from wherever he rests => :nod: ] LaFlamme FTW!

Go listen to White Bird, Hot Summer Day, Wasted Union Blues, Girl With No Eyes, Bombay .. ah hell, the entire album from their first self-titled release in '69. That's SF psychedelia at its breezy best. Now fire up IABD Live At Carnegie Hall from 2 years later, only crank it up! Then come back and thank me for the turn on. ;) I'll break you blues purists yet.

In the 60's no white folk really knew what the blues was. I have reason to believe they still don't.

Some of the best blues ever recorded were done by white artists, right in our lifetimes. Where they may imitate, pimp and snatch at times, they also elevate, refine and reinvent in their own right. Tell me Green's work doesn't do something for you? How 'bout an hour of Stevie Ray Vaughan? It's all how you come to view it. Also, what would those great black man blues be without their own "traditional" song structure borrowings? And that was from white folks way back when, dig? You don't get that "pure blues" sound from the jungles of Africa, do you? That's because it's a hybrid fusion owing much of its own development and evolution to additional music forms, white mans' forms as it were, but tethered and broadened from the plight of their own unique experience. Same with rock n roll. That genesis is no more black based than white, borrowing every bit as much from western, country, popular and traditional standards as anything else (R&B, jazz, blues, etc.).

That's the largely unwritten story, the one not always brought to the fore by the ultra modern scribes. I guess it isn't deemed "cool" or "hip" enough, since our white ancestors were obviously all living in laps of luxury.

[i]Bob Welch is good in his own right. But Pop culture is just too fickle. "Another Roadside Attraction"

"Another Roadside Attraction"? What the #$*%$!!! Those are fightin' words let me remind you. You bluesmeisters sure know how to put the sting in anything deviating from a purely black n blue norm. Time to circle the wagons, again!

[doodyhead]

Dear Snoot,

no fighting here.

I just wanted to see how far you would go

I bought the original "It's A beautiful Day Album
White Bird and The Dolphin were great songs.

Hippie? That died in 1967

POP, god help us, will live forever. You or I just won't recognize it

great to have you posting

vinnie c

[snoot]

No fighting, not to worry there. Any "smoke" you see from me is either rhetorical, or for purposes of humor. I'm an old **** kicker, so it's water off a duck's back, believe me. :laugh:

As for the era of the hippie and tree dwellers, yeah that died long ago. Inexorably. "Hippy dippy" better captures it, a la Carlin. Born in the right spirit perhaps, but the whole thing soon went too far. When the Merry Pranksters showed up proadly boasting "We have come for your daughters" in their LSD laden Kombi bus, you knew the end was within sight. I love a lot of the psychedelic era sound, but those free form excesses were mostly misguided. Even Peter Green got caught up on that merry-go-round without brakes, and if that first solo effort of his was any measure of it, it couldn't end soon enough. "End of the game" captures it rather succinctly, and ironically.

Now that I know you're hip to IABD, you might want to sample IABD Live At The Carnegie as I mentioned earlier (if you haven't already). I say that because you will see that those Haight Ashbury "hippies" could ROCK, and with style! Singer Pattie Santos (RIP) is something else as she pairs off against David LaFlamme, plus you get some great workouts with Bill Gregory on guitar and LaFlamme on violin. Val Fuentes timing on the sticks is flawless throughout, and Tom Fowler (later of Zappa fame) will flat out floor you with some of his bass chops. And if you think they had trouble finding a worthy replacement for Linda LaFlamme, since she was so skillful on the keys but departed not long after that eponymous release, the late Fred Webb more than meets the mark. What a find!

POP, god help us, will live forever.

Great line. :p But hey, like Lennon once said, give pop a chance!

Couldn't resist. ;) Chops Vinnie.

[snoot]

Hey Vinnie, one last thing - and this goes for seekerj and anyone else who cares to add their 2 cents on the issue. I'm still curious as to why you view Welch's stuff as second rate, or if that's overstating it a bit, then at least not worthy of Greenie and Kirwan's tandem stuff. You really don't find his riffing with Weston compelling, esp on Mystery To Me? Sure it may not be anchored in the blues, but damn if that isn't some creative tracking those two guys do, with guitar embellishments cued like confetti on a tickertape parade.

[doodyhead]

Somewhere in all of this was Peter Green needing a band to focus his vision.
He named them Fleetwood Mac so they would have a musical life after he left.

for discussions regarding Bob Welch see "Pre Rumors" section of this message board

sincerely,

doodyhead

[snoot]

Somewhere in all of this was Peter Green needing a band to focus his vision.
He named them Fleetwood Mac so they would have a musical life after he left.

for discussions regarding Bob Welch see "Pre Rumors" section of this message board

sincerely,

doodyhead

COP OUT

You bloody blues wankers, it was as much by Green's hand as Danny's that they moved from their blues core. Please don't tell me Welch couldn't do the blues thing either, even if he added a little swing or jazz scaling to some of his stuff. Same goes with Kirwan! Don't be a prude.

I would argue Peter's vision was never more focused than when he was looking Danny square in the eyes. :D

And remember, this is just one thread in the Green forum, a rather active one so far. Isn't that worth some consideration? It's not like an invasion throughout. Besides, you can also get things off your chest, lamenting their unfortunate turn in direction if you care to. IMO it's the ideal place for a more in-depth discussion of FM since 1) some Greenies never venture out of their barricaded, self-imposed cubbyhole here, and 2) some of the most dedicated of the Mac faithful are -- um, er, *cough* -- blues purists (dang I almost choked).

[dino]

some Greenies never venture out of their barricaded, self-imposed cubbyhole here, and 2) some of the most dedicated of the Mac faithful are -- um, er, *cough* -- blues purists (dang I almost choked).



Hey, let them be if they want to :laugh:. They way I see it, Mac's creative zenith was the Green era. The rest is well made, pretty standard pop. Nothin wrong with that. The innovative stuff from 69-70 still sounds fresh today. I like to listen to the Welch stuff (after Kirwan left) and BN eras too, but only for...diversion. Sometime you do need cotton candy, but the flavor quickly wears thin.

[snoot]

Hey, let them be if they want to :laugh:. They way I see it, Mac's creative zenith was the Green era. The rest is well made, pretty standard pop. Nothin wrong with that. The innovative stuff from 69-70 still sounds fresh today. I like to listen to the Welch stuff (after Kirwan left) and BN eras too, but only for...diversion. Sometime you do need cotton candy, but the flavor quickly wears thin.

I actually like all three eras equally well. I could say the same thing my friend, that blues flavoring inevitably wears thin when that's all there is, often quickly. I also give the Mac's 1970-1974 projects marks far above "pretty standard pop". Some claim Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac were little more than "white man blues", making them second class by implication. That's pretty absurd, but so too is saying that which followed on its heels wasn't innovative. My estimation and appreciation of music doesn't hinge on the earth-shattering or "full curve" in each instance. It actually has more to do with the vibes it gives me. My foot often tells me if it's working.

[stubbie7]

Still liking this discussion. As another one of those aging/old/former/whatever hippies I don't always remember things unfiltered through the fogginess of time but I seem to remember being more upset when DK left than PG. I am Danny's age and somehow always related to him. I also didn't really discover FM until Then Play On; had to work backwards to discover the older stuff. So I knew Danny longer. I remember frequenting the local record stores (remember when you could go in and you knew exactly which ones had just come in? And you could spend a couple hours going through ALL the records?) constantly searching for a new Fleetwood Mac album. I remeber picking up the first one without DK and being crushed. Then discovering it was still a good album (that was Mystery to Me, right?)

I didn't really feel the same way when Peter left. Although I could really FEEL the difference in the direction of the music. I didn't really realize what it meant until later, as I matured and let all the FM music flow into my genes. One memory was finding the bootleg Merely a Portmanteau (think that was the name) and picking up "The Original Fleetwood Mac" vinyl and being happy that, although it wasn't a "new" album but it was stuff I didn't have. I did buy the first album without Bob and remember also being disappointed. Although I can appreciate that era, that was the final "new" FM album I ever bought. By this time my tastes were heading back to the blues and into the new country stuff so I quit buying albums by FM.

Fast forward to now and it is still a little like that. Finding cd releases of material or versions I don't have. My latest acquisition, earlier this year, was Madison Blues. Really liking this album. I always felt that the Kiln House era demonstrated really well the direction the band was headed and had Jeremy not left what direction the band could have gone and just how good they would have been as that 5 piece band. Although, I forget which song it is, but toward the end of Madison Blues, in the live stuff, there is a DK solo that I also think demonstrates the beginning of Danny's decline. Sometimes you can hear a solo and the guitarist might miss or mess up but you get an idea of what he is trying to do. Man, that one song I really have no idea what Danny was trying to do. And yet, Bare Trees and Future games were still to come so he still had a lot of good stuff coming. Make sense?

As a (pretty lame) guitarist myself I find that the only period of FM's music I try to learn and play is Peter Green era music. That is where my new appreciation for what he did comes from as well as my still huge appreciation for DK's guitar playing. I will never even be close to the caliber of either of them but figure I could have worse goals.

[Wouter Vuijk]

I will never even be close to the caliber of either of them but figure I could have worse goals.

I can fully agree to this as can probably many amongst "us guitar players".
Keep up the spirit, however. :wavey:

[snoot]

Still liking this discussion. As another one of those aging/old/former/whatever hippies I don't always remember things unfiltered through the fogginess of time but I seem to remember being more upset when DK left than PG. I am Danny's age and somehow always related to him. I also didn't really discover FM until Then Play On; had to work backwards to discover the older stuff. So I knew Danny longer. I remember frequenting the local record stores (remember when you could go in and you knew exactly which ones had just come in? And you could spend a couple hours going through ALL the records?) constantly searching for a new Fleetwood Mac album. I remeber picking up the first one without DK and being crushed. Then discovering it was still a good album (that was Mystery to Me, right?)

Penguin actually, but damn dude, you're bringing back a flood of memories! :D

Frequenting those old local record stores, hunting for for new or used LPs ... rifling through all those seemingly endless selections! Back in the days when full size LP covers provided such helpful info on the backside, all without requiring a dang magnifying glass!

Yeah I too remember when DK was let go, for me it was just one more not so pleasant blow (after Peter and Jeremy). Thankfully two cats named Welch and Weston were there to help pick up the pieces. I almost, I say almost, "let go" with Penguin, and would have had Dave Walker stayed on board (that was NOT a good fit any way you size it). Took a while to warm to those changes, but with the arrival of Mystery To Me, I knew they were made in the shade -- and back on track. The entire front line - Welch, Weston & Christie - all come into their own on that production like never before. When Weston was let go thereafter, I wondered if the changes would ever end (I wasn't going to be disappointed, as time soon proved). :shocked:

I didn't really feel the same way when Peter left. Although I could really FEEL the difference in the direction of the music."

You cannot overstate the shock PG's departure was to the early Mac faithful. All the way to the end of the Welch era, foks were still looking for Peter Green. Both at Mac concerts, and on Mac releases. Not just among "new" fans who were just discovering FM and wondering what the "buzz" was all about, but often older ones too! * Truth*

I did buy the first album without Bob and remember also being disappointed.

You mean Mac '75 (aka white album), that first one to feature Buckingham & Nicks? If so, wow. That was a knockout release, with a truly fresh west coast sound. Hard to believe, since that's where the "superstardom" phase began -- and a new white powder came into play.

The way I see it, one of the eternal joys of FM is you can head either forward or backward, and with ease. That seems to be reserved for only the best acts in our collections.

And yes, the discovery of a new album and all new tracks ... ahhhhh sheer bliss :thumbsup:. Like discovering a really good set of headphones for the first time, or finally completing that one-of-a-kind Best Of compilation tape of all your top favorites! Yeehaw :]

Although, I forget which song it is, but toward the end of Madison Blues, in the live stuff, there is a DK solo that I also think demonstrates the beginning of Danny's decline. Sometimes you can hear a solo and the guitarist might miss or mess up but you get an idea of what he is trying to do. Man, that one song I really have no idea what Danny was trying to do. And yet, Bare Trees and Future games were still to come so he still had a lot of good stuff coming. Make sense?

Maybe he was stoned at the time, perhaps nipped a bit much? I don't know if that could be a precursor of DK's decline musically (doubt that's what you're implying), but if you mean regarding the personal demons he would increasingly battle as time went on, then yeah, who knows? Keep in mind, they ALL indulged far more than they should of in various forms of contraband, Danny included. Fortunately, as FG + BT proved, he still had plenty of fuel in his tank left.

Tell us which track you're referring to! Inquiring minds insist on knowing. :p

As a (pretty lame) guitarist myself I find that the only period of FM's music I try to learn and play is Peter Green era music. That is where my new appreciation for what he did comes from as well as my still huge appreciation for DK's guitar playing. I will never even be close to the caliber of either of them but figure I could have worse goals.

You put that well, and yes you could have far less admirable goals. Such a long time fan, now "rediscovering" the blues in a highly personalized way. That sounds pretty darn admirable from where I sit.

[Norton]

When I started this thread, I had no idea of the direction it would take.
To help put it back to its original subject matter, have a read of this:-
http://forums.vintageamps.com/viewtopic.php?t=62075&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=4a5bd331ff5f7e60c2d0001611553f10

[doodyhead]

having bought and sold valuable instruments over time due to changing family and economic situations. I can empathise with Gary Moore. That being said, I hope the guitar is still played and not some war relic hanging on the wall. The owner if Ziff Davis publishing reportedly has in his possession half hte existing 59 les pauls. He can't possibly play them . Conspicuous consumption.

It is also true that once you sell something to someone else or give them a gift , you lose control over it. Too bad , too sad

When Peter was playing the guitar, it did sing!

let us rejoice in what he recorded.

vinnie c

[zoork_1]

This Les Paul is such a beauty....

/z

[snoot]

When I started this thread, I had no idea of the direction it would take.
To help put it back to its original subject matter, have a read of this:-
http://forums.vintageamps.com/viewtopic.php?t=62075&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=4a5bd331ff5f7e60c2d0001611553f10

Be happy it's cookin', no matter what direction it takes.

[Wouter Vuijk]

Be happy it's cookin', no matter what direction it takes.

Lyrics by Robert Cray (dunno if he's the original writer, probably not :laugh:):
Too many cooks are gonna spoil the stew,
Too many cooks are gonna spoil the stew,
Too many cooks are gonna spoil the stew,
There ain't nobody cookin', but me and you.
:D

[snoot]

Lyrics by Robert Cray (dunno if he's the original writer, probably not :laugh:):
Too many cooks are gonna spoil the stew,
Too many cooks are gonna spoil the stew,
Too many cooks are gonna spoil the stew,
There ain't nobody cookin', but me and you.
:D

Lyrics by Me (dunno if I'm the original writer, probably so :laugh:)
You gotta savor that stew,
And let the brew come to you,
You gotta savor that stew,
And let the LOVE come to you.
:p

[stubbie7]

Snoot, you said:

Maybe he was stoned at the time, perhaps nipped a bit much? I don't know if that could be a precursor of DK's decline musically (doubt that's what you're implying), but if you mean regarding the personal demons he would increasingly battle as time went on, then yeah, who knows? Keep in mind, they ALL indulged far more than they should of in various forms of contraband, Danny included. Fortunately, as FG + BT proved, he still had plenty of fuel in his tank left.

Tell us which track you're referring to! Inquiring minds insist on knowing.

Actually, it is Station Man (the live version). Granted, it seems to be a terrible mix but unless my copy has some serious problems (there does seem to be some sound cutouts) if you listen to it and about 3/4 of the way through the lead guitar just makes no sense. At all. I assume it is Danny's guitar.

Interesting though, I was thinking, again, as I listened to Madison Blues this morning that, for me, it is really revealing of what the band was becoming. If you hold Kiln House in one hand and Madison Blues in the other you seem to be holding a short lived but totally promising version of FM. Especially on MB, but also on KH you get a sense of a real band, working together and some really nice intermingling guitars between Danny and Jeremy. Had things been different I think this band really could have gone places. It is interesting to hear the guitar interplay between the two and realize that it is the reason PG brought Danny into the group because he wasn't getting that from Jeremy. Jeremy even says that lots of times, on stage, he would just sit out on Peter's stuff. Don't know if he thought he couldn't handle it or didn't care but here he is, doing that very thing with Danny. Hmm.

Rick

[snoot]

When Peter was playing the guitar, it did sing!

let us rejoice in what he recorded.


Ain't it the truth! ;)



Actually, it is Station Man (the live version). Granted, it seems to be a terrible mix but unless my copy has some serious problems (there does seem to be some sound cutouts) if you listen to it and about 3/4 of the way through the lead guitar just makes no sense. At all. I assume it is Danny's guitar.

This points to some of stuff I witnessed on the last leg of the KH tour (once Jeremy departed), particularly on the more extended jam material. At one moment Pete and/or Danny could be red hot, then seemingly in search of the lost chord. Like I said, I don't know if certain "substances" came into play at times, or just momentary breakdowns based on who-knows-what.

Interesting though, I was thinking, again, as I listened to Madison Blues this morning that, for me, it is really revealing of what the band was becoming. If you hold Kiln House in one hand and Madison Blues in the other you seem to be holding a short lived but totally promising version of FM. Especially on MB, but also on KH you get a sense of a real band, working together and some really nice intermingling guitars between Danny and Jeremy. Had things been different I think this band really could have gone places.

Absolutely. Plus the two of them would also have been able to provide valuable support for one another. We of the old guard have been blessed, but also deprived! We never got TPO-2, and yet at least some preparatory groundwork between PG and DK had already been laid for it instrumentally. Then we never got a revisit of KH, once Jeremy exited the stage. That too would have been nice, since they were really getting into a nice groove of their own. A somewhat redefined groove, but still a very pleasant one.

It is interesting to hear the guitar interplay between the two and realize that it is the reason PG brought Danny into the group because he wasn't getting that from Jeremy. Jeremy even says that lots of times, on stage, he would just sit out on Peter's stuff. Don't know if he thought he couldn't handle it or didn't care but here he is, doing that very thing with Danny. Hmm.

Wonder of wonders, eh? Jeremy always had it in him, it was just a matter of getting his heart in the right place and pushing more. He was plagued with insecurities of his own, not unlike Peter and Danny in their own rights. The only difference was, DK and PG had their hearts more into the music and projects. That's where the extra dedication came in. I personally will never hold anything against Spencer though. He did what his conscience told him to do, and no one should be faulted for following their heart. He went on to serve a different master, arguably a more elevated one. [Doesn't mean I don't lament his leaving though] Peter did too, in his own way. [Ditto again]. Moreover, without that happening, we may never have seen the emergence of Bob Welch and Christine McVie like we did (or Lindsey & Stevie for that matter), so it wasn't all for naught.

PS. Those shamefully bad lyrics I spieled earlier are little more than an inside joke I have going elsewhere. As Wouter reminds me, music is all about feeling the l*o*v*e. :nod: Say it again.