Warner/Reprise, Lindsey's big mistake.

[iamnotafraid]

Anyone else on the board familiar with record companies promotional departments I'd like your input on this statement.

I believe Warner/Reprise Record Company is one of the reasons the Lindsey will recieve none or at best little publicity for his upcoming album "Gift Of Screws". And I base that on many points, some are as follows:

1. The lack of promotion of Lindsey's SoundStage.
2. The lack of promotion of Lindsey's Under The Skin.
3. The lack of promotion of Lindsey's Live At The Bass Performance Hall.

I could probably include Fleetwood Mac's Say You Will. I know someone who is in the music business and we talk from time to time about new releases. And I inquired about Lindsey's new Gift Of Screws release. He told me that getting promotional disc or materials from Warner/Reprise is like pulling teeth. Of all the record companies he's dealt with, he said they're one of the worst. This person deals with many companies, and said that if Lindsey could have signed with a label like Lost Highway or Big Machine records or any of another various labels, that the record would have a chance.

This person also mentions that how much promotion a record (CD) recieves is based on what the record label assumes it will sale. But he added compaired to what Warner sends out in general, pales in comparison to what many other labels send out for new and established artist.

I personally think that Lindsey signed with Warner because of the upcoming (hopefully) Fleetwood Mac release. I imagine they did this to keep Lindsey happy. But I wish Lindsey had shopped it around a little more. I think with time Lindsey could have found a label that really belived in him.

I hope Lindsey will have some TV appearances scheduled close to the time of the GOS release, otherwise the general public won't even know that there is a new album out from one of rocks greatest artist.

[LukeA]

Its *very* important to Lindsey that he's on a major label. He's used his leverage as a member of Fleetwood Mac to get WBR to put out his albums, even though he knows they're just going to throw them out there without much support.

Let's not forget the last time WBR put a ton of money/planning in the promotion of a Lindsey Buckingham solo album, it tanked miserably. They promoted the HELL out of OOTC- no one seems to remember or admit that. But, they did.

There's no shortage of indie/boutique labels that would have loved to sign Lindsey over the past 10 years or so, but his attitude has always been "what's the point?" He's all about prestige. This is why he, now more than ever, writes/records whiny, self-important songs about his music & talent being unappreciated by the suits, yet ultimately seems quite content with the arrangement.

All of that aside, if you were WBR, how would you have marketed Lindsey's recent releases differently? And do keep in mind that no matter how promo CD's of "Did You Miss Me" you'd manufacture and send to Top 40 / A/C stations, few, if any, would even give it a listen. They're solidly marketing to his base (AAA stations), and that's all you can really want at this point.

[iamnotafraid]

All of that aside, if you were WBR, how would you have marketed Lindsey's recent releases differently? They're solidly marketing to his base (AAA stations), and that's all you can really want at this point.

If I were WBR I would do the following.

1. Make sure every radio station in his genre of music had a decent publicity kit and disc. (WBR doesn't do this).

2. WBR should use their muscle to get Lindsey on shows like Leno and Letterman, even O'Brian. Not just Kimmel and Ferguson (these are second tier shows at best.)

3. Shop his songs to movie or TV executives. A well placed song can do wonders for sales. This should have already been in place to coincide close to the release date.

As I mentioned before, what Warner sends out pales in comparison to other labels. Most artist send out Press Kits that are full of information and picture(s) of the artist. Warner's promotional department needs to be cleaned out top to bottom. Look up Big Machine records, the guy that runs this label knows all about promotion. You can check the Billboard charts to see his results.

[louielouie2000]

The thing is, I think labels like Warner/Reprise are just doing veteran acts like Lindsey and the Mac lip service. They have never forgotten how much money Fleetwood Mac brought them at one point, so they feel they're simply doing Lindsey a favor by keeping him onboard, and letting him put out his little boutique albums every 10 years. They know he's past the 'prime age' for making hit records, so they just don't even bother promoting him. They did the same thing with Stevie for Trouble In Shangri-La (which if they only did a video and pushed Planets Of The Universe hard, could have been a big hit), and were even worse with Fleetwood Mac's Say You Will. Let's not even go there regarding Under The Skin. In retrospect, I can't blame them for Say You Will... it just wasn't a great album, though it had some great tracks. Not to mention the entire band wasn't in tact for the album, most notably the solid hitmaker of FM was the one who retired. Under The Skin just had a truly limited audience too because of it's style and content, and Warner realized that.

The thing is, Warner is going to base all these past dwindling sales of Macsters, then downgrade their forecasts for the sales of Gift Of Screws accordingly because Lindsey is getting even older, and the public is forgetting more about him and the Mac by the year. I find this unfortunate, because listening to the snippets off Gift Of Screws recently, Lindsey is putting out his strongest, most approachable, radio friendly album to date. In the end, Warner/Reprise probably say 'what do we have to gain from dropping big bucks to support this album?' when in reality, they should be looking at what they might be losing out on.

Further, I think a lot of blame lies with the members of Fleetwood Mac too. They could have possibly been in an entirely different boat had they only signed with Interscope for Say You Will. I think they feel an obligation to Warner/Reprise, since it was that label who stuck with the band for many years before they produced a hit album. Let's not forget it was Warner who brought Fleetwood Mac all the fame and riches they've become accustomed to these past 30 odd years, and it's Warner who has put out every one of their projects since, which probably all COMBINED haven't made as much money as Rumours.

[LukeA]

If I were WBR I would do the following.

1. Make sure every radio station in his genre of music had a decent publicity kit and disc. (WBR doesn't do this).

They've already been doing this- as I said, AAA stations are his audience, and they're doing as good a job marketing to them as anyone can do.

2. WBR should use their muscle to get Lindsey on shows like Leno and Letterman, even O'Brian. Not just Kimmel and Ferguson (these are second tier shows at best.)

Lindsey went on a couple of these shows to promote UTS- Conan definitely, and I think one other, too. By the way, news flash- O'Brien and Ferguson are tied in the ratings, and Ferguson's demo is aligned much more closely with Lindsey's than O'Brien's.

3. Shop his songs to movie or TV executives. A well placed song can do wonders for sales. This should have already been in place to coincide close to the release date.

Yeah, because getting "Peacekeeper" placed on NBC's "Third Watch" (which cost money- as do all song placements) singlehandedly rocketed it up the charts. :rolleyes:

As I mentioned before, what Warner sends out pales in comparison to other labels. Most artist send out Press Kits that are full of information and picture(s) of the artist.

These are far more helpful for new, developing, or otherwise unknown artists than established ones. You don't promote a Taylor Swift/Jack Ingram album (to reference your belabored Big Machine comparison) the same way you do a Lindsey Buckingham album. WBR has a fine marketing/promotional department.

[Madness Fades]

All very good points raised.
Everyone is putting up good cases for and aginst.
I would love if Lindsey awnsered something like this in a Q&A for the Ledge fans.

[jbrownsjr]

I look forward to the new album, but based on UTS and SYW i just don't think he puts out a very good product.

[Lori40]

Its *very* important to Lindsey that he's on a major label. He's used his leverage as a member of Fleetwood Mac to get WBR to put out his albums, even though he knows they're just going to throw them out there without much support.

Let's not forget the last time WBR put a ton of money/planning in the promotion of a Lindsey Buckingham solo album, it tanked miserably. They promoted the HELL out of OOTC- no one seems to remember or admit that. But, they did.

There's no shortage of indie/boutique labels that would have loved to sign Lindsey over the past 10 years or so, but his attitude has always been "what's the point?" He's all about prestige. This is why he, now more than ever, writes/records whiny, self-important songs about his music & talent being unappreciated by the suits, yet ultimately seems quite content with the arrangement.

All of that aside, if you were WBR, how would you have marketed Lindsey's recent releases differently? And do keep in mind that no matter how promo CD's of "Did You Miss Me" you'd manufacture and send to Top 40 / A/C stations, few, if any, would even give it a listen. They're solidly marketing to his base (AAA stations), and that's all you can really want at this point.

As much as I love Lindsey, I have to agree with you, Luke. His "unappreciated musical genius" label is one he wears with pride. I think it is how he wants to be defined. Just in case we didn't pick up on it ourselves, he wrote Not Too Late to hammer the point home.

[BTFLCHLD]

Talk Show Appearances for UTS

Ellen: The Ellen DeGeneres Show"
- Episode dated 25 April 2007
"Late Night with Conan O'Brien"
- Episode dated 22 March 2007
"Jimmy Kimmel Live!"
- Episode dated 10 January 2007
- Episode dated 4 January 2007
"Tavis Smiley"
- Episode dated 29 November 2006
"The Late Late Show with Craig Ferguson"
- Episode #3.43 (2006)

[jbrownsjr]

As much as I love Lindsey, I have to agree with you, Luke. His "unappreciated musical genius" label is one he wears with pride. I think it is how he wants to be defined. Just in case we didn't pick up on it ourselves, he wrote Not Too Late to hammer the point home.

It's been the same story with him since 1979. He's basically had a career of complaining about being underappreciated for 30 years. What used to get me laughing is that LB would complain about John's bass or Mick's drumming, and then I would listen to his solo albums and the bass and drums were not even close to the caliber of John or Mick.

[JamieSPC]

Its *very* important to Lindsey that he's on a major label.

He's all about prestige.

I don't hang around here enough to know if this is inside info from someone in the know, or just conjecture. But every single frame and every single word out of LB's mouth on the Destiny Rules doc regarding SYW is a direct contradiction to what you're saying here.

I would have LOVED to see what Interscope would have done with SYW, UTS and now GOS. My bet is that LB would have, too. And on the UTS doc he wasn't too proud to shop THAT record around, either. I think the other three were more worried about the prestige of a major label. (see the conversation between Mick and Lindsey about filmmaker Todd Solondz)

There are still a lot of levels of Warner Music Group that resemble the company it used to be a part of (Time Warner)... marred in the past and seemingly ignoring the digital future. The traditional record companies just don't have the power they once did, and yet many who work for them think they do.

If FM is going to do another studio record, they should do it outside the current system altogether. How about Live Nation?

Good thread, good discussion.

~Jamie

[GoS]

I am torn! I agree with every word here.

And, for the record, I knew the name "Lindsey Buckingham" from listening to FM growing up, but I had no idea he had a solo career for most of my life. Then a DJ, only once and only in passing, said that Lindsey was dong a concert. I got tickets, went, fell in love with the music and bought UTS. And now look where I am, I read this message board daily and have every album and the GoS Demos.

[LukeA]

I don't hang around here enough to know if this is inside info from someone in the know, or just conjecture. But every single frame and every single word out of LB's mouth on the Destiny Rules doc regarding SYW is a direct contradiction to what you're saying here.

I would have LOVED to see what Interscope would have done with SYW, UTS and now GOS. My bet is that LB would have, too.

In early 2002, after they just got dropped from WBR, Fleetwood Mac had a verbal agreement to join Dreamworks Records. At the time, Dreamworks was led by Mo Ostin & Lenny Waronker, former WBR executives who were big fans of Lindsey & the rest of the band. This was glossed over in Destiny Rules, if I recall (I haven't seen it in 4 years).

Despite that connection (and despite the fact that Dreamworks had a solid stable of artists at that point), they got the willies and were lured away by the much more comfortable choices of Interscope/Jimmy Iovine and WBR/Tom Whalley (and the huge advance).

As for what Interscope/Iovine could have done with SYW, I dunno. It ended up selling 200-250K more than I thought it would, and WBR did a pretty good job promoting it (IMO).

And on the UTS doc he wasn't too proud to shop THAT record around, either.

Lindsey shopped UTS (and GOS) around because, like most of us, he wants to be wanted. In the end, he was always going to go back to Warners.

There are still a lot of levels of Warner Music Group that resemble the company it used to be a part of (Time Warner)... marred in the past and seemingly ignoring the digital future. The traditional record companies just don't have the power they once did, and yet many who work for them think they do.

I completely agree. Lyor Cohen is a dunderheaded stooge. Then again, if you're Lindsey, at least he's not David ("What's The World Coming To") Kahne.

If FM is going to do another studio record, they should do it outside the current system altogether. How about Live Nation?

Considering the album/Farewell Tour rumors that have been out there for a while- recently corroborated by Lindsey- AND the fact that Live Nation sent out those surveys to a handful of Fleetwood Mac/Stevie Nicks concert ticket purchasers (LN sent out similar surveys to people re: Madonna and U2, shortly before they announced touring and/or 360 deals with them), I'd say that an all-encompassing Live Nation agreement is in the future.

[LukeA]

They know he's past the 'prime age' for making hit records, so they just don't even bother promoting him. They did the same thing with Stevie for Trouble In Shangri-La (which if they only did a video and pushed Planets Of The Universe hard, could have been a big hit)

I COMPLETELY agree. I mean, Sheryl Crow alone was not enough of a reason to push "Sorcerer" the way they did. "Planets" made much more sense- and was later proved out when they released the very successful single w/ the dance mixes.

I also felt at the time (and still feel) that they should have sent "Too Far From Texas" to country, it could have been a moderate crossover hit.

All of that said, TISL did better than I thought it would, as did SYW.

[michelej1]

Talk Show Appearances for UTS



Thanks for this list. I missed Tavis Smiley.

Michele

[BTFLCHLD]

Thanks for this list. I missed Tavis Smiley. Michele You can find the transcript and a listening option here:

http://www.pbs.org/kcet/tavissmiley/archive/200611/20061129_buckingham.html

I could not get LISTEN to work though. :shrug:

[LB is the man]

i will tell you that i work at a radio station and we are his type of format, and we have yet to receive any type of promotional cd or single of his songs. out of the cradle we reveived all the singles.

[MacMan]

Thanks for this list. I missed Tavis Smiley.

Michele

I have the audio of his interview with Tavis if you want me to post it.

[BTFLCHLD]

I have the audio of his interview with Tavis if you want me to post it. YES, please. :xoxo:

[MacMan]

i will tell you that i work at a radio station and we are his type of format, and we have yet to receive any type of promotional cd or single of his songs. out of the cradle we reveived all the singles.

Well there are some Triple A stations playing his "Did You Miss Me" track. Not alot of spins since it became available, it's been landing around the #50 place of the Triple A charts. I think the highest it's reached so far is #45.

The is from Mediabase which tracks radio play (spins).

[LukeA]

i will tell you that i work at a radio station and we are his type of format, and we have yet to receive any type of promotional cd or single of his songs. out of the cradle we reveived all the singles.

WXPN? I'd be shocked if WXPN didn't receive the single.

As for OOTC, they did a huge blitz, so I'm not surprised.

[LB is the man]

no no not XPN, i havent listened to them lately to know that they are playing did you miss me, now im curious if they have it or not

[dcl1964]

The problem isn't just issuing singles to radio. Years ago you could get actual CD singles (or 45s) in RECORD stores promoting upcoming releases. Record companies today need to start thinking outside the box to promote artists and their albums. Paul McCartney went with the HearMusic label because they tried different things to promote his CD than the same old stuff that EMI/Capitol would do. The internet could be an incredible (and cheap) promotional tool if used properly by record companies. The artist's own website could also be an incredible tool if used properly but most artists ignore their own sites.

[JamieSPC]

I'd say that an all-encompassing Live Nation agreement is in the future.

Luke, that would be incredible! I hope you're right. I'm not a fan of Madonna per se, but there are some ladies who sang back-up in a former band of mine that would follow Madge to the ends of the earth. They say Live Nation is fan-friendly AND artist-friendly, no small task.

I don't know what Interscope would have done either, but I feel they may have been more nimble.

~Jamie

[michelej1]

I have the audio of his interview with Tavis if you want me to post it.

Oh, I'd love that. Thanks.

Michele

[MacMan]

Here it is:

Direct download... Right Click and Save.

http://rapidshare.com/files/142703536/2006.11.29_Tavis_Smiley.mp3

[michelej1]

Here it is:

Direct download... Right Click and Save.

http://rapidshare.com/files/142703536/2006.11.29_Tavis_Smiley.mp3

Thank you!

Michele

[iamnotafraid]

They've already been doing this- as I said, AAA stations are his audience, and they're doing as good a job marketing to them as anyone can do.

These are far more helpful for new, developing, or otherwise unknown artists than established ones. You don't promote a Taylor Swift/Jack Ingram album (to reference your belabored Big Machine comparison) the same way you do a Lindsey Buckingham album. WBR has a fine marketing/promotional department.

I'm curious to why you think they are doing a good job?

And press kits and other promotional items are more important to a new artist. But I used the BIG MACHINE reference because that's a company who does it right. Taylor Swift is not a good comparison for Lindsey, but just look what Big Machine/Valory music label did for the artist Jewel. They took an established artist (who wasn't exactly putting up big sales) and even changed music genres', and where'd her album end up? If you guessed number 1 on Billboard you'd be correct. With several singles doing very well at radio.

But my original point was not to compare Lindsey with any particular artist. Or to say Lindsey should have signed with such and such label. I just wanted to get accross that I think Warner/Reprise is doing a lousy job. Lost Highway did a lot of promotion for Shelby Lynne's "Just A Little Lovin'", and I doubt they thought it would sell more than a hundred thousand copies. BTW, it's a great album.

Bottom line for these labels is promote, promote, promote.
(something Warner has failed at).

[LukeA]

Luke, that would be incredible! I hope you're right. I'm not a fan of Madonna per se, but there are some ladies who sang back-up in a former band of mine that would follow Madge to the ends of the earth. They say Live Nation is fan-friendly AND artist-friendly, no small task.


I'm not a fan of Live Nation- my old company filed a federal antitrust lawsuit against Clear Channel a few years back and won nearly $100M in damages. Their actions and business practices are predatory and not in the long-term best interests of touring artists in general.

That said, Fleetwood Mac stands to make a windfall from such an arrangement from their one last big, huge, cash-in. It should be interesting to see how it all unfolds.

[David]

How is the Buckingham album doing over there at KUSC in Los Angeles? Anyone know?

[snicksfan85]

Here's my take. I have a degree in Recording Industry, worked with alot of different people from different industry related businesses, worked for two artists on indie labels, and interned at a pretty prominent Nashville studio:

More marketing is a double-edged sword. (Promotion to a record label is getting it on the radio.) While it seems like it's best for the artist, it actually drives up prices of albums just like any type of marketing which makes fans stand-offish. Plus, the more money and time they pump into a project without an "acceptable" return on their investment, the more it's considered a flop which hurts the artist's chances of either getting that same label to pump any money into the next one or finding a label for their next album. And everything from having the album played in a store to making online flash banners to even getting some stores to carry it costs money. There's alot of stuff that goes on behind the scenes that all ends up being marketing. (Sending out promo copies of the CD also affects how much the album will cost in the end.)

Honestly, UTS wasn't going to be #1. The material wasn't good enough. (Sorry, guys.) And as a marketing team, they had to take that into account. You've got an album that's best chance for radio play is on Triple A, college, and satellite radio none of which hold enough market share to really leave a dent and with a sound that really isn't something that would appeal to the "casual" music listener. You really can't put all the blame on WBR. You got a label with obligations to 100s of artist all fighting for the money in consumers' wallets. They're going to pump their efforts into the ones they think will make them money. It's a business.

I'm all for Lindsey going to a smaller indie label but in order to do that he's got to make some sacrifices. No big advances, lots more touring, relying more on grassroots attempts. Indie labels rely alot more on the artist actually taking charge of many of the things that major labels do. I just think that Lindsey likes the cush that a major provides. He doesn't have to be too hands on and he doesn't have to tour all the time.

As far as the Live Nation 360 deals go, I think they are worse than an artist signing with any major label out there. They're pretty much signing their life away for the next 10 years and I really think that the music is going to suffer and fans are going to pay for it in the end. Live Nation now has a hand in everything they do and it's going to be all about the return on their multimillion upfront deal in any way they can using the band as a brand. There's no way I'd be for Fleetwood Mac jumping into something like that. Live Nation as a promoter for a farewell tour: OK. But getting half-ass music because the band doesn't really want to be together anymore but are now obligated to do so (because it's going to be almost impossible to get out of those deals): NO.

[aleuzzi]

Its *very* important to Lindsey that he's on a major label. He's used his leverage as a member of Fleetwood Mac to get WBR to put out his albums, even though he knows they're just going to throw them out there without much support.

Let's not forget the last time WBR put a ton of money/planning in the promotion of a Lindsey Buckingham solo album, it tanked miserably. They promoted the HELL out of OOTC- no one seems to remember or admit that. But, they did.

There's no shortage of indie/boutique labels that would have loved to sign Lindsey over the past 10 years or so, but his attitude has always been "what's the point?" He's all about prestige. This is why he, now more than ever, writes/records whiny, self-important songs about his music & talent being unappreciated by the suits, yet ultimately seems quite content with the arrangement.

All of that aside, if you were WBR, how would you have marketed Lindsey's recent releases differently? And do keep in mind that no matter how promo CD's of "Did You Miss Me" you'd manufacture and send to Top 40 / A/C stations, few, if any, would even give it a listen. They're solidly marketing to his base (AAA stations), and that's all you can really want at this point.

I love Lindsey's solo work, but I agree with EVERY word you wrote here, especially with his "I am a genius...nobody recognizes this" songs.

[iamnotafraid]

You really can't put all the blame on WBR. You got a label with obligations to 100s of artist all fighting for the money in consumers' wallets. They're going to pump their efforts into the ones they think will make them money. It's a business.
.

You made good points in your post, but I still believe WBR has failed him (and others) based on what a person in music industry told me about them. You have to be realistic about what the album will probably sell, but if it were your album wouldn't you want the label behind you 100%. Why fight the fight if you're not going to give it your all?

All said, I actually hope I'm wrong about WBR this time. Maybe they'll do their best. Time will tell.

And if anyone see's the new TV spot for GOS (not counting Youtube) please post that information here (channel & time). Thanks!

[snicksfan85]

You made good points in your post, but I still believe WBR has failed him (and others) based on what a person in music industry told me about them. You have to be realistic about what the album will probably sell, but if it were your album wouldn't you want the label behind you 100%. Why fight the fight if you're not going to give it your all?

All said, I actually hope I'm wrong about WBR this time. Maybe they'll do their best. Time will tell.

And if anyone see's the new TV spot for GOS (not counting Youtube) please post that information here (channel & time). Thanks!


I agree. I would want a label behind my artist 100% but I would also have a realistic expectation for their efforts.

[LukeA]

You made good points in your post, but I still believe WBR has failed him (and others) based on what a person in music industry told me about them.

Well, now that you've had other people with experience in the industry (who arguably have a better knowledge of Lindsey and his audience) tell you otherwise, who are you going to believe?

[iamnotafraid]

Well, now that you've had other people with experience in the industry (who arguably have a better knowledge of Lindsey and his audience) tell you otherwise, who are you going to believe?

I believe the person I talked to about it. He had no reason to lie about WBR. Plus he showed me other promotional items from various labels (same type of demographic, and projected sales) and WBR pails in comparison to them. And in my original post I didn't say that it was impossible to get promotional CD's etc.. from them, I just said it was difficult. Why should it be a hassle to promote an album?

But I do respect others opinions on the subject, even if I don't agree.