1992 Plight of Going Solo

[michelej1]

[Here's an old article, I'm just uploading]

New Jersey Record (NJ), August 2, 1992

Section: LIFESTYLE / ENTERTAINMENT

THAT SWEET SOLE MUSIC SINGLEMINDED STARS OFTEN FIND FLIP SIDE IS LONELY TEARDROPS


STEVE MORSE, Special from The Boston Globe

Going solo. It's a dream and a curse in pop music. You might leave a successful "brand-name" band for creative, financial, or mental health reasons, only to find new pressures and the scary feeling of starting over with less name recognition yet more to prove.

For every solo act that's made it - Bobby Brown after leaving New Edition, Robert Plant after Led Zeppelin - dozens have crashed and burned.

A quick quiz:

* Fleetwood Mac sold millions of records, but how many people know of Lindsey Buckingham, the spark behind their 21-million-selling "Rumours" album?

* C+C Music Factory won MTV's best new group award last year, but how many folks recognize lead rapper Freedom Williams?

* The Eagles sold 15 million copies of their "Hotel California" album in 1976, but how many know former singer Glenn Frey? They may know ex-Eagle Don Henley, but he's one of the lucky solo acts who have made the transition.

It's with a mixture of hope and chutzpah that these and other gone-solo acts, such as Annie Lennox and Dave Stewart (both ex-Eurythmics), are again knocking at the marketplace door. Buckingham, Frey, and Lennox all have persuasive new albums, while rapper Williams, who just left C+C Music Factory because he felt financially cheated (he's filed a multimillion-dollar lawsuit against the producers), has a new album next month on his aptly named label, Knock 'Em Out of the Box.

"You have to go where your heart is - and my heart was no longer with C+C Music Factory," says Williams, who starred on the group's Top 5 hits "Gonna Make You Sweat" and "Things That Make You Go Hmmmm."

"I couldn't make another album under the conditions I was in," he adds from New York. "It's like a marriage. If you have to be married to someone you don't want to be with anymore, it's only going to get worse."

"I think at a certain point we really had just had enough," echoes Lennox, the former Eurythmics singer whose soulful new album, "Diva," marks her departure from longtime partner (and former boyfriend) Stewart.

Ex-Fleetwood Mac brain trust Buckingham is similarly blunt about his exit. "Leaving Fleetwood Mac was a survival move, because I couldn't function in that situation anymore," he says from Los Angeles. "I think they understood that. It was a drag.

"There was a lot of craziness, so you had to often settle for what you could get, and that was not something that I felt comfortable with," Buckingham adds. "There's always compromise involved in a group. And that's fine, but at some point to me, it just wasn't buyable anymore. It wasn't a situation where I felt I could be very creative for myself or for anyone else."

Buckingham left Fleetwood Mac five years ago. The official reason was that he was "tired of the road." He's since been holed up in his home studio, finally emerging with the challenging "Out of the Cradle," a solo disc on which he plays most of the instruments. The album has the pop exuberance of his bigger hits with Fleetwood Mac (among them the Top 10 songs "Go Your Own Way" and "Big Love") but also the experimental edges of his favorite Mac album, "Tusk."

In fact, Buckingham now admits he started to withdraw from the band after "Tusk," the 1979 follow-up to the hot-selling "Rumours." The pressure to produce another "Rumours ' took its toll, while he also notes how bureaucratic the band had become, with lawyers and managers hanging on at every turn. Not to mention the tabloid sensationalism that climaxed in a book by Mac drummer Mick Fleetwood (entitled "Fleetwood") in which he suggests Buckingham once slapped co-singer (and former girlfriend) Stevie Nicks.

"I think everyone in the band was disappointed in Mick for coming out with something that trashy," says Buckingham. "The last time I saw Stevie, she came up to me apologizing for Mick writing that I'd slapped her, which never happened. Things like that were a product of Mick sitting around late at night with a writer for months, gabbing away about what he thought happened in situations and maybe not taking much responsibility for the editing of it. . . . It was not a class act."

A more experienced solo explorer is Frey, who's been on his own for a decade. He sang many of the Eagles' top hits ("Take It Easy," "Peaceful Easy Feeling," "Lyin' Eyes," "Heartache Tonight") before the group called it quits.

"The Eagles taught me many things, but I was also without a life," Frey says from his home in Aspen. "I couldn't even take a vacation without asking three or four people if it was all right. . . . The Eagles had become a beast, a monster that had to be fed. I found myself making a lot of money, but the band had become a 24-hour-a-day job."

Because of that, Frey wasn't keen on a mega-bucks reunion tour proposed last year. "I'd get together with the guys to do one show if it was really important, but not nine months of touring," he says. "I have a wife and daughter now, and I'm involved in the community in Aspen."

Every few years, Frey resurfaces with a solo hit. There was "The Heat Is On" from the "Beverly Hills Cop" soundtrack in 1985. And there's been "Smuggler's Blues," "You Belong to the City," and "True Love." But none of it has been easy.

"You start back at zero when you go solo," Frey says. "When I think about it, the failure rate of people coming out of successful bands is very high. I knew there would be certain risks. But the bonus was that I could go at my own pace. Sure, I'd like to sell multiplatinum albums again like I did with the Eagles, rather than the gold records I sell now, but I wouldn't trade it for the sanity I've gotten. I measure success a lot differently now than record sales."

Having left his Eagles base of Los Angeles, Frey lives year-round in Aspen, where he also bought the house next door (from singer Jimmy Buffett) and built a studio in Buffett's old office. There, Frey recorded his new album, "Strange Weather," the first socially conscious disc of his career. A solid effort that marks his finest work since the Eagles, it surprises with barbed songs about Ronald Reagan's legacy in "He Took Advantage" and "I've Got Mine."

"I'm an easygoing person, but like a lot of Americans, I've just been pushed too far," Frey says, admitting that some of his new consciousness was spurred by former Eagles partner Henley, who remains a friend.

"One thing I admire about Henley's work is that he takes on subject matter that's important to him, but he also makes entertaining music with good chord progressions. That's what I tried to do with the new album," says Frey.

"I'm really starting to enjoy my solo career. And I'm not going to stop. If this new album doesn't work out, I'm going right back in the studio to do another. Maybe experience breeds confidence after all."

[strandinthewind]

. . . In fact, Buckingham now admits he started to withdraw from the band after "Tusk," the 1979 follow-up to the hot-selling "Rumours." . . . .

I think this lends some support to my theory that a pattern emerged after Tusk of him wanting to go solo, but needing FM for the wave of popularity it gave him. Again, it's just a theory, but it is somewhat supported I think.

[michelej1]

I think this lends some support to my theory that a pattern emerged after Tusk of him wanting to go solo, but needing FM for the wave of popularity it gave him. Again, it's just a theory, but it is somewhat supported I think.

Stevie said she thought Lindsey stayed for as long as he did because he didn't want to be the first one to say goodbye. I see no reason to think that he stayed because of the "wave of popularity it gave him" when he did absolutely nothing to capitalize on that popularity. If you're in it for the "wave of popularity," you don't leave on the verge of a blockbuster tour that would have reaped millions for you and given you national (or worldwide) exposure. Even Mick was shocked -- not that Lindsey left, but at the timing of Lindsey's exit, after he'd worked on Tango so long and hard. and the lucrative part of that work was just If he was in it for the fame and fortune, then he wouldn't have left that tour money on the table, when he had nothing going on in his solo career to take it's place.

I think he stayed as long as he did for emotional reasons, not knowing how to make the break.

Michele

[strandinthewind]

Stevie said she thought Lindsey stayed for as long as he did because he didn't want to be the first one to say goodbye. I see no reason to think that he stayed because of the "wave of popularity it gave him" when he did absolutely nothing to capitalize on that popularity . . . .

Thus my point that I think he never really got that you had to release the record within a year of the wave - bless his heart :laugh:

But, I agree that that was one part of it. I think that he liked being with Stevie, esp. up to and including Mirage and despite anyone else in his life. I also think that he was the one who chased her all that time. I never really got that vibe from her, though I do think she cut her eyes more than once at him all those years :laugh: As for the rest of FM, I think the sentiment was perhaps not as intense (how could it be) - but, clearly still there.

[michelej1]

So, by leaving before a tour that would have made him millions, he used FM to help the solo career that he didn't promote and didn't even have for most of the time that he was out of FM, but you explain the fact that he didn't promote it by saying that he didn't understand that he had to do so within a year or even within two or three years.

That's a very unique perspective and the good thing about it is that it works no matter what, because everything he does that is not opportunistic can be explained away by saying he just didn't know how to do them. Your arguments are foolproof.


Michele

[strandinthewind]

I think you are not reading what I have been saying, or, when you get down to it, what LB has been saying :laugh:

But, whatever :cool:

[Sarah]

too many lawyers on this board. :cool:

[strandinthewind]

too many lawyers on this board. :cool:

Lord Child - I agree :laugh:

[rubytuesday]

So, by leaving before a tour that would have made him millions, he used FM to help the solo career that he didn't promote and didn't even have for most of the time that he was out of FM, but you explain the fact that he didn't promote it by saying that he didn't understand that he had to do so within a year or even within two or three years.

That's a very unique perspective and the good thing about it is that it works no matter what, because everything he does that is not opportunistic can be explained away by saying he just didn't know how to do them. Your arguments are foolproof.


Michele

lol that's what I was thinking

[strandinthewind]

lol that's what I was thinking

You actually think :eek:

:p

[michelej1]

too many lawyers on this board. :cool:

But it's not legal logic at play. It's more like Alice Through the Looking Glass reverse reasoning. Michele

[strandinthewind]

But it's not legal logic at play. It's more like Alice Through the Looking Glass reverse reasoning. Michele

You mean that same logic you used in the other thread when you said "I don't think he needs the FM money at all to live, but I think he does use it to keep fueling his non-profitable solo work, which is why he could go on that extensive UTS tour, flying around on private jets. SYW gave him the ability to tour so long on UTS." :shrug:

When I say he uses FM and the wave of popularity and money it provides him (one cannot exist without the other - they go hand in hand) to fuel his less popular and therefore less lucrative solo stuff, you argue that my logic is rubbish. When you say it though, it is okay. Do you not see a problem there :laugh:

Maybe you are arguing that my speculation that historically he takes too long to fully take advantage of that wave of popularity is incorrect. But, I think the way GOS morphed in the SYW (five or so years after The Dance) and the solo record he morphed into TITN (five or so years after Mirage) supports my theory of a pattern. OOTC was also about five years after TITN, which though he left before the tour which would have made him millions, he still got the recognition with the singles and by quitting, which was all over the press at the time - putting him again in the spotlight, though I think he left for different reasons than to gain popularity. I think that if he had released OOTC in 1988 or 89 as opposed to 1992, it maybe would have done better because more people would have remembered him. So, I conclude that he historically has waited too long to fully take advantage of the success of FM. Where is the flaw in that assumption :shrug: I think by the time UTS came out, he somewhat learned that perhaps expediting the process could benefit him as UTS came out about three years after the end of SYW, which was not that successful a record, but the tour mostly was and he still did huge press events for SYW, which placed him in the public eye again. I fully agree that he said UTS was a boutique record, but surely he still wanted it to sell fairly well (sadly it did not for IMO unrelated reasons) and he still wanted enough popularity to play on a large tour in style, which he did perhapsd because of FM. I still think though he realized early on that UTS likely would not be a success (hence his quotes on it) - he in some way wanted those mostly publicly inaccessible songs to be a hit on his own terms so he could in a way be vindicated, but that is just my opinion and really hope for him. But anyway, my point is perhaps if he had come out with UTS in 2009, his ability to tour so long and in such style would have been lessened :shrug:

So, why is my logic totally "Alice Through the Looking Glass reverse reasoning." :shrug:

[David]

By now, Lindsey ought to realize (if he doesn't already) that no matter how big & splashy a Fleetwood Mac tour is, it's not going to mean diddly to sales of his own albums. It's mistaken to believe otherwise, I say, based on the faulty premise that the millions who go see Fleetwood Mac are going to like Lindsey's solo albums. They're not -- they never have. Lindsey's fan base likes his solo work, but nobody else does. The situation isn't equivalent to that of Sting & the Police in the 1980s, when the Police fans bought Sting's first solo work.

[michelej1]

You mean that same logic you used in the other thread when you said "I don't think he needs the FM money at all to live, but I think he does use it to keep fueling his non-profitable solo work, which is why he could go on that extensive UTS tour, flying around on private jets. SYW gave him the ability to tour so long on UTS." :shrug:


There's a difference between using the money you've made in FM to finance a solo career and going back to FM just to help that solo career. The time line doesn't suggest that he's ever gone back to do that, except at the end when GOS was shelved, when he told everyone that that is what he was doing.

Before that, from Law and Order to OOTC, he did not capitalize on any of the many opportunities he had to use his FM exposure to promote his solo career. He didn't time his solo records to capitalize on FM (explained away illogically by you, because he did not know how). He didn't tour on his solo records at the height of his FM fame. He didn't use FM to make money when the band wanted him to record and tour more after Mirage. And he left FM before he could have made the big money on Tango.

The evidence suggests that he wouldn't even have returned after Mirage, except they were contractually obligated to give Warners another album.
Did he have ulterior motives for being in FM? Yes, he wanted to get his experimental music out. When he couldn't he became alienated from the band, because it wasn't giving him what he needed anymore. But there's no evidence to suggest that before 1997 he ever used FM to milk his solo career, because whenever he was in FM, his solo career was on hold.

But for you, if he doesn't put out solo albums in conjunction with FM that proves your point. If he leaves FM just before he can make the big Tango money, that proves your point. And obviously, if the facts were reversed and he'd launched a solo album during an FM tour that would prove your point. If he'd changed the past and left FM directly after a successful Tango tour, that would prove your point too.

That's the beauty of your point. Michele

[strandinthewind]

There's a difference between using the money you've made in FM to finance a solo career and going back to FM just to help that solo career. The time line doesn't suggest that he's ever gone back to do that, except at the end when GOS was shelved, when he told everyone that that is what he was doing.

I agree and am unsure if I ever said differently, though I think he went back twice for GOS.

Before that, from Law and Order to OOTC, he did not capitalize on any of the many opportunities he had to use his FM exposure to promote his solo career

No. L&O and GI were released within a year or so of two highly popular FM records. So, he did "time his solo records to capitalize on FM" and your statement "explained away illogically by you, because he did not know how" is incorrect in regards to those two records.

Yes, he wanted to get his experimental music out. When he couldn't he became alienated from the band, because it wasn't giving him what he needed anymore.

This statement proves my point.

But for you, if he doesn't put out solo albums in conjunction with FM that proves your point. If he leaves FM just before he can make the big Tango money, that proves your point. And obviously, if the facts were reversed and he'd launched a solo album during an FM tour that would prove your point. If he'd changed the past and left FM directly after a successful Tango tour, that would prove your point too.

No, that is not what I am saying.

That's the beauty of your point

All my points are beautiful :angel:

[Sarah]

By now, Lindsey ought to realize (if he doesn't already) that no matter how big & splashy a Fleetwood Mac tour is, it's not going to mean diddly to sales of his own albums. It's mistaken to believe otherwise, I say, based on the faulty premise that the millions who go see Fleetwood Mac are going to like Lindsey's solo albums. They're not -- they never have. Lindsey's fan base likes his solo work, but nobody else does. The situation isn't equivalent to that of Sting & the Police in the 1980s, when the Police fans bought Sting's first solo work.

I wonder how much of it has to do with the possibility that more mainstream listeners perhaps got over-Mac'd in the late 70s. Other styles of music were becoming more popular at that time, and as much as I love Lindsey's early pop newwave punk spices, the records don't really fit in any category that would reach the average listener.

[michelej1]

I wonder how much of it has to do with the possibility that more mainstream listeners perhaps got over-Mac'd in the late 70s. Other styles of music were becoming more popular at that time, and as much as I love Lindsey's early pop newwave punk spices, the records don't really fit in any category that would reach the average listener.

But I don't think it's because people were over Mac'd, because his songs weren't really FM songs either. At least not the first two albums. Even if you wanted more Mac, you probably wouldn't want those albums.

With Sting and Phil Collins, I really can't tell much of a difference in the sound, whether they're with their band or not. But because of Chris and Stevie, FM doesn't have much in common with LB music (except for the obvious LB link). I think one of Lindsey's problems is that his ideal audience wouldn't be people who like FM. There's probably a group who does want his music, but they aren't at FM concerts. He should have gone and joined a "new wave punk spice" band and then he would have been exposed to more people likely to follow him as a solo artist.

Michele



Michele

[michelej1]

No. L&O and GI were released within a year or so of two highly popular FM records.

Tusk wasn't a "highly popular FM record". It sold millions, but was deemed a failure at the time. So, even though no one accepted his experimental music as part of FM, Lindsey forged ahead and produced even more weird music for his first solo record which would have a much smaller audience than FM did.

Trouble was certainly designed for commercial success, but the rest of the album -- not so much. And, given Tusk's performance, Lindsey had to know that more of same would doom Law and Order, but he didn't change the recipe.

As for Go Insane, if he wanted to use FM to launch that album, I think he would have stayed with the band through the Tango tour, raked in the money, let everyone see him, as he traveled around the country, keeping his identity in their minds, and then sprung his solo album on them. Instead he left FM, didn't maximize that band exposure, waited a couple of years before releasing a solo album, and then didn't tour on that solo album. However, I understand your argument that he didn't do any of that because he didn't really know how to do it. Thus, proving your point.

Michele

[strandinthewind]

Tusk wasn't a "highly popular FM record". It sold millions, but was deemed a failure at the time.

The album sold millions of double albums. That clearly is a success unless it is compared to Rumours, which an unfair comparison. And, the tour was a huge success. So, clearly, he got the needed exposure.

As for Go Insane, if he wanted to use FM to launch that album, I think he would have stayed with the band through the Tango tour, raked in the money, let everyone see him, as he traveled around the country, keeping his identity in their minds, and then sprung his solo album on them. Instead he left FM, didn't maximize that band exposure, waited a couple of years before releasing a solo album, and then didn't tour on that solo album.

Go Insane was released in July 1984, a year or so after the very successful Mirage album and tour :shrug: I think you are thinking of OOTC.

[michelej1]

The album sold millions of double albums. That clearly is a success unless it is compared to Rumours, which an unfair comparison.

I'm not comparing the album to Rumours. I'm borrowing the industry assessment of Tusk as a failure, which has now become a matter of folk lore.

People tell their grandchildren that Tusk's failure is why there was pressure never to do anything like Tusk again, which resulted in Mirage. In retrospect, decades later, most people consider Tusk a success now, but that was not the case when the album debuted. It wasn't thought of as a success, in the band, at Warner Bros. or among the public in general, which is why it didn't make financial sense to release a solo album that would be even less commercially accessible than Tusk was, since Tusk had just bombed. But I don't think Lindsey was thinking about what made financial sense.

Then came the more commercial Mirage, with a tour that was also cut short because Lindsey didn't want to be involved, so that money-making opportunity was curtailed too.

Michele

[strandinthewind]

I'm not comparing the album to Rumours. I'm borrowing the industry assessment of Tusk as a failure, which has now become a matter of folk lore.

People tell their grandchildren that Tusk's failure is why there was pressure never to do anything like Tusk again, which resulted in Mirage. In retrospect, decades later, most people consider Tusk a success now, but that was not the case when the album debuted. It wasn't thought of as a success, in the band, at Warner Bros. or among the public in general, which is why it didn't make financial sense to release a solo album that would be even less commercially accessible than Tusk was, since Tusk had just bombed. But I don't think Lindsey was thinking about what made financial sense.

Then came the more commercial Mirage, with a tour that was also cut short because Lindsey didn't want to be involved, so that money-making opportunity was curtailed too.

Michele

You are missing the point. Exclude the money (though clearly he made millions off of each and Tusk was a financial success by any rational standard despite the lore) -- He simultaneously gained huge exposure on both records and tours. That exposure or momentum if you will helped his solo records released soon thereafter sell. To me, that is a no brainer. So, I am at a loss to see why you do not see that.

But, onto another topic, if L&O was released on 10/81 at roughly the same time as BD (7/81) - why was La Nicks villified for releasing a solo recored and to my knowledge, LB was not? In other words, La Nicks and Mick have said it was a big deal, the band never discussed it, if she failed it could hurt FM, etc. I do not recall any talk like that about LB. Clearly, they worked on solo material at the same time. She was a larger star, but his failure could have hurt the band as well. Maybe because she had done the very successful "Whenever I Call You Friend" in 1978 - could that be a factor?

[shackin'up]

But, onto another topic, if L&O was released on 10/81 at roughly the same time as BD (7/81) - why was La Nicks villified for releasing a solo recored and to my knowledge, LB was not? In other words, La Nicks and Mick have said it was a big deal, the band never discussed it, if she failed it could hurt FM, etc. I do not recall any talk like that about LB.

Because he brought out a solorecord for the right reasons. This material would have never seen the light on a Mac/album after Tusk. The major part of Bella Donna was vintage Macstuff. She was the focal point of the band and did it to show that she didn´t need the band...not nice. He brought out a solo/album because he couldn´t bring it to the band...not nice from the band. Who´s missing the point here, dude.

[strandinthewind]

Because he brought out a solorecord for the right reasons. This material would have never seen the light on a Mac/album after Tusk. The major part of Bella Donna was vintage Macstuff. She was the focal point of the band and did it to show that she didn´t need the band...not nice. He brought out a solo/album because he couldn´t bring it to the band...not nice from the band. Who´s missing the point here, dude.

She got three songs a record and had volumes of stuff, some of which FM rejected like Think About It. Come to think of it, Think About It is the only thing FM recorded on. EO17, SDMHA, The Highwayman, ATGF, and L&L were all to my knowledge BD specific even if some were written in the 70's. Plus, the FM existence was shaky after Tusk. So, her reasons were not the reasons you assert.

But, your only point is you hate her. So be it.

[michelej1]

You are missing the point. Exclude the money (though clearly he made millions off of each and Tusk was a financial success by any rational standard despite the lore)

Tusk was certainly a success by Lindsey's standards, but not by the industry's standards, which is why putting out a solo album that was more experimental than Tusk, meant that it was destined not to sell, but Lindsey didn't seem to care about his solo album sales.

As the New York Times put it: '' Tusk ,'' widely regarded as a commercial failure for having sold a mere two million copies, won Mr. Buckingham critical admiration for his willingness to ditch a hit-making formula in favor of daring sonic experimentation.

Or as the Chicago Tribune describes it: "Tusk," the Buckingham-driven Fleetwood Mac now-classic that was regarded as an adventurous failure when it was released in 1979.

He simultaneously gained huge exposure on both records and tours. That exposure or momentum if you will helped his solo records released soon thereafter sell. To me, that is a no brainer.

I don't know if it helped his solo records or not, because they didn't sell. I do know that if he was only interested in money, fame and exposure, that he wouldn't have spent so much time outside of FM, not recording and not touring, when the rest of the band wanted him to do so.

Now, the tables have turned. He seems to want FM now and has ever since SYW. As soon as SYW came out, Lindsey started saying that he would never have to make another solo album again, if he could continue to express himself through the band and make new FM records. And he wanted to tour then. Wants to tour now. Even says he'd be up to doing a BN tour. His change and eagerness kind of scare me, because he was not that way about the band in the past.

Michele

[strandinthewind]

. . . Now, the tables have turned. He seems to want FM now and has ever since SYW. As soon as SYW came out, Lindsey started saying that he would never have to make another solo album again, if he could continue to express himself through the band and make new FM records. And he wanted to tour then. Wants to tour now. Even says he'd be up to doing a BN tour. His change and eagerness kind of scare me, because he was not that way about the band in the past.

Michele

I agree. And, he seems to have accepted the 18 songs only "deal" about SYW. But, he is doing his thing now and he certainly deserves it. I can't wait for the rock album, which I think, if history shows us anything, will get morphed into a FM record. But, they better do it soon :laugh:

[strandinthewind]

. . . I don't know if it helped his solo records or not, because they didn't sell. I do know that if he was only interested in money, fame and exposure, that he wouldn't have spent so much time outside of FM, not recording and not touring, when the rest of the band wanted him to do so . . . .

Touble and GI sold respectable numbers and produced hit singles. The success was nowhere near that of the FM though. But, once he started waiting longer to release the records, the sales declined even more. I mean he waited five years to get OOTC out. Then he waited too long after The Dance to get GOS out. Both of those records had hit singles in them and could have sold at least as well as L&O. But, by then, many had forgotten him, which is sad. His star is not as bright to the masses, which is sad because he has so much talent and the music on those two later records was great and very accessible, well at least for him :laugh:

[michelej1]

If I am not mistaken, the Tusk tour played to huge shows many of which were sold out and they toured for like 18 months all over the world to wild crowds. Sounds like exposure to me :shrug: In any event, you keep changing the point. My point is the pattern demonstrates the closer he released a record to a FM record, the better it sold.

I haven't changed the point at all. First you were talking about the Tusk album being a huge success and now you're talking about the Tusk tour, giving him lots of exposure, with the tour being a lot different than the album. But now that you've told me you're talking about the looong Tusk tour and not the Tusk album, there's certainly no pattern there, as he cut short the Mirage tour and didn't participate in the Tango tour, so if he used the Tusk tour to help his solo album the first time, he sure didn't do it the next times.

You never identified the point as being that the closer he released a record to an FM album, the better the record sold. That's something you just decided to say. Whether his solo albums would sell more closer to FM releases is hard to say, because he never made a habit of releasing solo albums on the heels of FM releases or tours. Law and Order was the closest he got to doing so and then he never made an album as close to FM (the Tusk tour ending) as Law and Order was again.


But maybe he can remedy that lapse for the first time, this time around and test your theory, by trying to release his solo album in the middle of the Sheryl Crow/FM mania.

Michele

[strandinthewind]

I haven't changed the point at all. First you were talking about the Tusk album being a huge success and now you're talking about the Tusk tour, giving him lots of exposure, with the tour being a lot different than the album. But now that you've told me you're talking about the looong Tusk tour and not the Tusk album, there's certainly no pattern there, as he cut short the Mirage tour and didn't participate in the Tango tour, so if he used the Tusk tour to help his solo album the first time, he sure didn't do it the next times.

You never identified the point as being that the closer he released a record to an FM album, the better the record sold. That's something you just decided to say. Whether his solo albums would sell more closer to FM releases is hard to say, because he never made a habit of releasing solo albums on the heels of FM releases or tours. Law and Order was the closest he got to doing so and then he never made an album as close to FM (the Tusk tour ending) as Law and Order was again.


But maybe he can remedy that lapse for the first time, this time around and test your theory, by trying to release his solo album in the middle of the Sheryl Crow/FM mania.

Michele


Good Lord - The Tusk record sold well by any rationale standard as did the tour. That gave him exposure. If you can't see that, then I think any further posts are useless because you will never see it. And, I have consistently in this and other threads talked about the records and tours together as one big period of time. So, don't try to say I did not :laugh:

[michelej1]

Goof Lord - The Tusk record sold well by any rationale standard as did the tour. Finis

If it had sold well by industry standards, he wouldn't have been told he couldn't do Tusk again by his record company and band mates. Of course, if he had not felt that creative restriction from FM and Warner Bros., Law and Order probably would have ended up sounding a lot differently, but as it is, I think he used it to act out and to make the kind of music that he felt was forbidden.

Michele

[strandinthewind]

If it had sold well by industry standards, he wouldn't have been told he couldn't do Tusk again by his record company and band mates. Of course, if he had not felt that creative restriction from FM and Warner Bros., Law and Order probably would have ended up sounding a lot differently, but as it is, I think he used it to act out and to make the kind of music that he felt was forbidden.

Michele

So four million double records world wide is a flop. Are you actually arguing that? Put it this way Mirage and The Dance sold around that figure and they are considered successful single records.

He likely was told not to do it again because they wanted another 15 + million record a la Rumours. That they did not get that does not negate the fact that Tusk sold well by a rational standard and the resulting tour ( :wavey: ) sold very well and played to hundreds of thousands of people.

As to the second point, I often wonder about L&O sounding differently. He did not have much time, esp. for him, after Tusk to get it ready, which makes me think he recorded much of it during Tusk (record and tour) and likely before. So, who knows the effect the comparative failure of Tusk (the record) had on him and L&O.

[michelej1]

So four million double records world wide is a flop. Are you actually arguing that?

To me, selling 2000 albums worldwide is not a flop. For Lindsey, who often laughed at the irony of Warner Bros. bonuses flying out the window, when the album had still sold millions, Tusk was not a flop. But for the industry and the expectations that were held for Fleetwood Mac in 1979, yes Tusk was certainly a flop. That's neither a shocking statement or a novel one. The "failure" of Tusk is a part of FM's history and it's a failure which Lindsey felt keenly when Law and Order was being made. Back then, he did not have the luxury or prescience of knowing that Tusk would someday be lauded as a critical success.

Back then, no one who was trying to recreate or further the experimental sound of Tusk was doing it because they thought it would make them money or get the album a slot on Casey Kasem's countdown. From his Tusk experiene, Lindsey knew that Law and Order was not likely to be a blockbuster. He could have made it more commercial if he wanted. He could have made more songs in the Trouble mode, but he decided not to.


Michele

[strandinthewind]

. . . But for the industry and the expectations that were held for Fleetwood Mac in 1979, yes Tusk was certainly a flop. That's neither a shocking statement or a novel one . . . .

I specifically was not not talking about the industry standard. I specifically mentioned a "rational standard." Selling four million double records worldwide is not a flop by a rational standard and it means four million people (two miilion here) got more exposure to him from the record and then hundreds of thousands more on the 18 month tour. That is quite wave to ride on into your solo record a year or so later :shrug: That wave certainly had to have helped him sell L&O and Trouble, which were successful, but not blockbusters.

[michelej1]

I specifically was not not talking about the industry standard. I specifically mentioned a "rational standard." Selling four million double records worldwide is not a flop by a rational standard and it means four million people (two miilion here) got more exposure to him from the record and then hundreds of thousands more on the 18 month tour. That is quite wave to ride on into your solo record a year or so later :shrug: That wave certainly had to have helped him sell L&O and Trouble, which were successful, but not blockbusters.

There is no definition for "rational" standard. No record that sounds good is a failure to a reasonable person. No record with artistic merit is a failure by a rational standard. I think that after Rumours made him money, Lindsey sought creative fulfillment with his next record, not more fame and fortune and I think Tusk's sound, followed by its commercial failure proves that, as does the fact that he went for more of Tusk and less of Rumours in his first solo album.

Did Tusk help his solo career? I doubt it. But even if it did, when he took those 13 months to make Tusk, I doubt he was even thinking of a solo career yet. That didn't come into his head until after he became alienated from his bandmates following Tusk. So, it cannot be said he went into Tusk to launch a solo career that hadn't materialized yet. He didn't create Tusk as a wave to ride into his solo career. Rumours and Trouble are waves. Tusk and the bulk of Law and Order are more like undertow, the current flowing beneath the surface moving somewhere beyond Billboard.

Michele

[strandinthewind]

There is no definition for "rational" standard. No record that sounds good is a failure to a reasonable person. No record with artistic merit is a failure by a rational standard.

Quit changing the subject :laugh: I agree Tusk was a success in an artistic regard to LB. I am not and we were not talking about that. I am talking about the exposure selling four million records world wide and a successful tour got him. If you don't think he got significant exposure from all of that which helped him release his solo record to a wider audience and success a year later - so be it.

. . . That didn't come into his head until after he became alienated from his bandmates following Tusk. So, it cannot be said he went into Tusk to launch a solo career that hadn't materialized yet . . . .

I kind of doubt that he was not working on solo songs or at least songs away from FM. After all, I believe he came into the Tusk sessions with competed songs and he had worked with other artists outside of FM a la Magnet and Steel :shrug: So, I think that at some point either right before or early into the Tusk sessions, he began contempating a solo record. But, that is just my speculation. And, I certainly do not think he created Tusk as a means to bolster his solo record. I do not think I said that. I do think, however, that the success of the Tusk era helped propel L&O. Again, to me that is a no brainer. I think he reasserted this method on GI with less success. Then, he morphed the next solo record into TITN, which was hugely successful by any standard. After that, he never could crank out a record fast enough to capitalize on the wave of FM popularity, save for perhaps UTS, which was not really as accessible as his last five solo records.

[shackin'up]

But, your only point is you hate her. So be it.

Now you take that back immediately. You witnessed me when I was there in the US of F*cking A just to see her perform with Lindsey. I would NEVER say you hate LB although you have NOT once, EVER in our discussions defended him if it took a small offer for your muse.

I can play games over here, but this is just unbelievably rude, and only to axe me out of the discussion. And I'm biting my tongue over here. *di*t.

She had three or four songs per album. Just like the other two.

[michelej1]

Quit changing the subject :laugh: I agree Tusk was a success in an artistic regard to LB. I am not and we were not talking about that. I am talking about the exposure selling four million records world wide and a successful tour got him. If you don't think he got significant exposure from all of that which helped him release his solo record to a wider audience and success a year later - so be it.


How am I changing the subject when I respond directly to the statements you make? You were talking about exactly that, which is why you said about 50 times that Tusk was a huge success and then belatedly added "by a rational standard."

I don't think Tusk helped him release a solo record. I don't think Tusk added to his public cache more than Rumours did. Rumours is what gave him entree into everything else and Law and Order was more like the less successful Tusk than it was Rumours. Since he never released a solo album as close to an FM venture after Tusk, I don't see him having repeated a pattern at all.

Your point was that Lindsey uses FM to launch his solo albums, when most of the time that he's been in FM he hasn't even had a solo album ready to launch. If you're saying that he's only been in FM so that he can get the publicity needed so the record buyers will be ready for him 2 - 5 years later when he does have a solo album to launch -- well . . . ok. That's what I'd call premature launching and I think he ought to see a doctor about it.

Anyway, for the first time, he does have a solo album now (at least he says he does), while he simultaneously has the possibility of working with FM before him as well. If he uses the FM/Sheryl Crow machine to promote that solo album while he's in FM, I'll be happy. I don't think he's ever done that before, while you think he's always been doing it. Thus, your point!

Michele

[strandinthewind]

Now you take that back immediately. You witnessed me when I was there in the US of F*cking A just to see her perform with Lindsey. I would NEVER say you hate LB although you have NOT once, EVER in our discussions defended him if it took a small offer for your muse.

I can play games over here, but this is just unbelievably rude, and only to axe me out of the discussion. And I'm biting my tongue over here. *di*t.

She had three or four songs per album. Just like the other two.

Yes, you were here, but I notice you haven't been back for a solo Nicks concert :shrug: I thought that she was playing with FM on SYW was ancillary to seeing Buckingham for you.

In any event, if you don't hate her, so be it.

As for defending him, I most certainly have. Though I think it was an awful thing to do to your friends, I understood why he left before the TITN tour. I also routinely say his is very talented, I like his work, and were it not for him in the beginning and mostly thereafter, La Nicks's songs would likely have had less appeal -- with her it all depends on the producer and others, like Iovine, have done her justice as well.

As for being rude, it was not intentional. I rather thought I was agreeig with you as you lately hae made comments like Stevie should stay away from FM, etc. So, sorry if I misread that.

As for the three or four soings, I agree and it was not enough her (too much writing) or for him (wanted an outlet for his other more experimental work) or CM (too much material) So, I think they all released solo records for the just about the same reasons and to call her out for it and not them is wrong :shrug:

[strandinthewind]

How am I changing the subject when I respond directly to the statements you make? You were talking about exactly that, which is why you said about 50 times that Tusk was a huge success and then belatedly added "by a rational standard."

It was a clarification because I did not think you would judge it sales wise against Rumours. And, I believe it was in the first response, not the 50th - post number 19 to be exact - your comment was in post 18 and in response to my initial comment in post 15 about Tusk being a "highly popular record" - four million double records sold world wide and a hugely attended 18 month world tour and all :wavey:

[michelej1]

Yes, you were here, but I notice you haven't been back for a solo Nicks concert :shrug: :

But Jason, you wouldn't have flown to LB's Soundstage if Stevie was not on the ticket, would you?

Now, I see the guys equally. Well, I see Stevie more, only because she's on tour more. I never saw Chris on tour at all, but it's not because I don't love her very much. I just was seeing the Jacksons 11 times in 1984 and I . . . dropped the ball.

Michele

[strandinthewind]

But Jason, you wouldn't have flown to LB's Soundstage if Stevie was not on the ticket, would you?

Now, I see the guys equally. Well, I see Stevie more, only because she's on tour more. I never saw Chris on tour at all, but it's not because I don't love her very much. I just was seeing the Jacksons 11 times in 1984 and I . . . dropped the ball.

Michele

Yes, I would have. In fact, I made the reservations before I knew for sure that she would be there. That she was there was a boon to me to be sure. But, I truly enjoyed the whole show, esp. Save Me a Place and Trouble. I posted a review about somewhere where I go off on how talented he is. In fact, gldstwmn, Sulamith, and I sat there for awhile and marveled at his guitars after the show as we were able to approach them. I also walked up to him and spoke with him after a show.

As for Gerald and I, he is my friend and I think he will remain so no matter our differences here.

[David]

He likely was told not to do it again because they wanted another 15 + million record a la Rumours. That they did not get that does not negate the fact that Tusk sold well by a rational standard and the resulting tour ( :wavey: ) sold very well and played to hundreds of thousands of people.The weird thing about that tour is that if you read reviews from some of the cities on the first leg, some empty seats & non-sellouts are mentioned. Yet the tour as a whole was Billboard's most lucrative tour of the year for arenas (around 18,000). In some of the big cities, like Los Angeles, most nights were sellouts, including just about all seven performances in L.A., whereas in other cities like Salt Lake City, the press said shows weren't always selling out.

As to the second point, I often wonder about L&O sounding differently. He did not have much time, esp. for him, after Tusk to get it ready, which makes me think he recorded much of it during Tusk (record and tour) and likely before.I doubt it. I think it was practically all tracked after the tour. The songs may have been toyed with on tape before that, but the actual tracking was new at the time. I don't think Le Buckingham decided to make a solo album until after the band tour was over. He spoke to Blair Jackson of BAM magazine around the holidays -- around the time of Fleetwood Mac Live -- & told her he'd consider putting out a solo album only if he had enough good material, & that he wasn't really chomping at the bit to do so.

[strandinthewind]

. . . I doubt it. I think it was practically all tracked after the tour. The songs may have been toyed with on tape before that, but the actual tracking was new at the time. I don't think Le Buckingham decided to make a solo album until after the band tour was over. He spoke to Blair Jackson of BAM magazine around the holidays -- around the time of Fleetwood Mac Live -- & told her he'd consider putting out a solo album only if he had enough good material, & that he wasn't really chomping at the bit to do so.

Then that is, as they say, that - thanks for the 411 :cool:

[rubytuesday]

Yes, you were here, but I notice you haven't been back for a solo Nicks concert :shrug: I thought that she was playing with FM on SYW was ancillary to seeing Buckingham for you.

Whoa, if you don't fly around the world to see herthen your fandom is questioned?

[David]

Then that is, as they say, that - thanks for the 411 :cool:
Well, now, hold on a minute, Le Strand. Let's discuss this. You should never take my word for anything at the outset ipso facto beano because as I have told you, fully 18 percent of everything I say is completely concocted out of my febrile brain & plundering pirate persona. I poop puns. I natter neologisms. I co-op coinages. I morph monologues into sallies of sesquipedalian syllepses. I am the James Joyce of the Ledge.

:woohoo: :shocked: :wavey:

[strandinthewind]

Whoa, if you don't fly around the world to see herthen your fandom is questioned?

Exactly :rolleyes:

[rubytuesday]

Exactly :rolleyes:what do you mean then?

[strandinthewind]

. . . fully 18 percent of everything I say is completely concocted out of my febrile brain & plundering pirate persona. I poop puns. I natter neologisms. I co-op coinages. I morph monologues into sallies of sesquipedalian syllepses. I am the James Joyce of the Ledge.

And that was the song of yourself while in the Leaves of Grass.

I think LB had a bunch of excess material left over from Tusk and possibly before that wound up being much of L&O. I cannot say for sure though when the idea for an actual break to a solo record occured. I do not think anyone but LB can say that.

[strandinthewind]

what do you mean then?

I have flown across the US to see both.

Seriously, I am pretty sure Gerald knows I meant nothing by that because he has repeatedly said he has not been a fan of La Nicks' since, I believe, Bella Donna - though he can comment of that himself. If he was, however, offended, I apologize here and now with my hat in my hand and head bowed.