Just Watched Sicko Last Night

[Madness Fades]

Oh my god the American Health system is just so so so wrong. Why do you people put up with that. :eek::eek::eek:
How can you let insurance companies decide wether or not you can have your operation or medical treatment.
Its unfair for the people on minimum wage or even no wage - who will look after them. Surely that is not living the american dream.

Over here if your sick you go to the doctor he treats you or else he admits you to hospital. No money ever crosses hands. It is completely free.

What we pay is called National Insurance and its a very small percentage of your earnnigs every month. If we need a prescription its about £6 = $12 for what ever medication we may need

I just couldnt believe what I was seeing.

How do you as americans feel about this system.

I feel the American Government has lost its grip and yous are heading for very
dark ages again if something isnt done.

[HejiraNYC]

Oh my god the American Health system is just so so so wrong. Why do you people put up with that. :eek::eek::eek:
How can you let insurance companies decide wether or not you can have your operation or medical treatment.
Its unfair for the people on minimum wage or even no wage - who will look after them. Surely that is not living the american dream.

Over here if your sick you go to the doctor he treats you or else he admits you to hospital. No money ever crosses hands. It is completely free.

What we pay is called National Insurance and its a very small percentage of your earnnigs every month. If we need a prescription its about £6 = $12 for what ever medication we may need

I just couldnt believe what I was seeing.

How do you as americans feel about this system.

I feel the American Government has lost its grip and yous are heading for very
dark ages again if something isnt done.

Well, not to sound like some kind of jingoistic flag-waving American, I think some things should be clarified.

The healthcare system in the U.S. is far from perfect, as it is far from perfect elsewhere in the world. My feeling is that you probably get what you pay for. Most countries' nationalized healthcare is funded via a value added tax (VAT) on purchases that, from what I can remember, can be as high as 10-15%. I think it is a good system (since it is somewhat progressive), but that is still a lot of money to be paying over time. At least it means that everyone, including illegal immigrants and people being paid off-the-books are paying their fair share.

In countries with nationalized medicine, costs are controlled across the board in terms of salaries, the cost of drugs, the cost of devices, diagnostic equipment, etc. But the biggest advantage of the system is the fact that there is little or no overhead for administrative costs like billing, insurance claims, medical coding, etc. However, the downside is that, by controlling costs so strictly, the system essentially destroys any incentive to innovate and to create newer, better, more effective medical interventions. So guess where the vast majority of new drugs and lifesaving medical technology are developed? Yep, the U.S. Guess where the most talented physicians and scientists and opinion leaders are located? Yep, the U.S.

In my opinion it is a pretty unfair system for Americans. Drugs and medical procedures are extremely expensive. Why? Because somebody has to pay for the years of research, trials and regulatory hurdles to bring these innovations to market. And it surely isn't the rest of the world- it's all on the backs of the U.S. consumer. In a nutshell, Americans are essentially paying the bill for new treatments that the rest of the world gets to enjoy for minimal cost. I think it's only fair that the rest of the world start paying for their fair share; it's no accident that every major biotechnology company has their corporate headquarters within the U.S.

I do feel bad that healthcare is not universal in the U.S. And, again, I do think there are a lot of inequities in the system. And although we hear that St. Obama or Hillary will come along on their white steeds and give healthcare to everyone, I think it's a crock of bull*****. There is no way that a single president, in one or two terms, is going to completely change the way healthcare is administered in this country. There is intense financial and political pressure to keep it privatized- from insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies, hospitals, and especially from working people who don't want to pay additional taxes, etc. And once you snuff out the financial incentive to innovate new medical technology in the U.S., the rest of the world will suffer too. So before non-Americans start casting aspersions at the American system, I think they need to understand why things are the way they are.

As for "Sicko," I thought it was very interesting, but very unbalanced. I think it would have been interesting for him to find out how much these countries were paying for their drugs and equipments vs. the U.S.

[rubytuesday]

Oh my god the American Health system is just so so so wrong. Why do you people put up with that. :eek::eek::eek:
How can you let insurance companies decide wether or not you can have your operation or medical treatment.
Its unfair for the people on minimum wage or even no wage - who will look after them. Surely that is not living the american dream.

Over here if your sick you go to the doctor he treats you or else he admits you to hospital. No money ever crosses hands. It is completely free.

What we pay is called National Insurance and its a very small percentage of your earnnigs every month. If we need a prescription its about £6 = $12 for what ever medication we may need

I just couldnt believe what I was seeing.

How do you as americans feel about this system.

I feel the American Government has lost its grip and yous are heading for very
dark ages again if something isnt done.
Ifelt exactly the same after seeing it! I couldn't believe it. And still some people think that national health is the big bad communistics infiltrating the system. They don't realise that people are entitled to private health care too, if you want to pay exact you can go ahead and spend as much as you want but no society should deny citizens the right health care. the systems in every other nation with it (which is all of them in the western hemisphere I think) are far better so it doesn't take a genius to figure out why. I can't imagine having to pay for regular appointments or medications or go into debt for whatever health thing pops up. I need to get a colonoscopy soon, sure I have to wait but at least it's not making me bankrupt! I guess if I lived there I just wouldn't have it done, which is a scary thought.

[kathy1]

i haven't seen the movie.

[Madness Fades]

Okay Kathy

[GODDESS6]

the movie made me feel like moving to france~

[David]

I can't imagine having to pay for regular appointments or medications or go into debt for whatever health thing pops up. I need to get a colonoscopy soon, sure I have to wait but at least it's not making me bankrupt! I guess if I lived there I just wouldn't have it done, which is a scary thought.Huh? I live in the United States & I fairly recently had a colonoscopy --- & an endoscopy & a 24-hour pH probe & an esophageal manometry & a cardiac stress test & now I take BP meds every day & see my physician twice a year & blood work done in a lab, etc. etc., & every single procedure I've had was covered in large by the insurance coverage I have through my private employer. I owed out-of-pocket a relatively miniscule amount. It hasn't bankrupted me. It's as if people overseas have this idea that every American who requires (or wants) medical care automatically goes bankrupt. I assure you that's far from the case in general.

I like what hejira said above & I think he/she is right on about incentive & high-quality medical care. I would only add that medical school costs a lot of money & malpractice insurance costs a bundle & a physician in private practice also needs to buy a lot of very expensive equipment (varies according to field of practice). My dad was an ophthalmologist & he set himself up in private practice starting in the late 1960s & spent hundreds of thousands on all these necessities throughout the tenure of his practice.

[desertangel]

After watching Sicko, my co-worker and I were ready to pack up and move to France also.

Let me help illustrate a point, I am at the point of picking and chosing what I want to have checked and treated due to escalating costs of everything. For example, I haven't had any routine screenings whatsoever in over two years because of having to pay off bills for acute conditions; two trips to the ER for a kidney stone and several visits to a physical therapist for tendonitis. A week ago I asked my payroll department to stop taking voluntary deductions that go into a retirement account. At least that way perhaps I'll have a little more money to pay for some important screenings. I want to do what I can to ensure I will even "make it" to retirement.

I am on the fence about nationalized health care. I try to understand about the costs of R&D, however, as a person who suffers from an incurable, chronic and potentially life-threatening disease, it really bums me out that R&D isn't doing a better job of finding a cure for we who are afflicted with this and other such diseases.

Seeing the degree of greed escalate in this capitalistic country causes me to have little faith in the R&D process. I think in a lot of cases the pharmy industry main focus seems to be on various addictive band-aids (or band-aids that cause other problems) rather than cures, because there's no long-term income in curing. JMHO.

[darklinensuit]

It's as if people overseas have this idea that every American who requires (or wants) medical care automatically goes bankrupt. I assure you that's far from the case in general.

You're right, but I hate that if I'm thinking of leaving a job, I need to take benefits and pre-existing conditions and my age into account before I can really give up a policy. IMO, linking policies to jobs is as random as linking them to where you live - i.e., Gee, I'd love to move to another apartment, but the one that's closer to my children's schools has a worse benefits package, and the one that's closer to my work won't let me enroll my spouse. It's just a dumb set-up.

- Jake

[Serrart]

In countries with nationalized medicine, costs are controlled across the board in terms of salaries, the cost of drugs, the cost of devices, diagnostic equipment, etc. But the biggest advantage of the system is the fact that there is little or no overhead for administrative costs like billing, insurance claims, medical coding, etc. However, the downside is that, by controlling costs so strictly, the system essentially destroys any incentive to innovate and to create newer, better, more effective medical interventions. So guess where the vast majority of new drugs and lifesaving medical technology are developed? Yep, the U.S. Guess where the most talented physicians and scientists and opinion leaders are located? Yep, the U.S.

In my opinion it is a pretty unfair system for Americans. Drugs and medical procedures are extremely expensive. Why? Because somebody has to pay for the years of research, trials and regulatory hurdles to bring these innovations to market. And it surely isn't the rest of the world- it's all on the backs of the U.S. consumer. In a nutshell, Americans are essentially paying the bill for new treatments that the rest of the world gets to enjoy for minimal cost. I think it's only fair that the rest of the world start paying for their fair share; it's no accident that every major biotechnology company has their corporate headquarters within the U.S.

And how many foreign doctors work on your laboratories? How many researchers from other countries have you got developing new treatments? How many had to come to Usa, only because in their Countries hadn't the chance to work?

Besides It's no accident all the major multinationals that made Billions tearing Africa, South America and Middle East into pieces have their headquarters in US.

You see some people dying only because they can't afford your healthcare system, see poor people thrown into streets from hospitals and think that other Countries should pay for treatments developed in Us also with thousands of foreign doctors and researchers?

That explains once more the decline of the American Empire.

Romy

[David]

You're right, but I hate that if I'm thinking of leaving a job, I need to take benefits and pre-existing conditions and my age into account before I can really give up a policy. IMO, linking policies to jobs is as random as linking them to where you live - i.e., Gee, I'd love to move to another apartment, but the one that's closer to my children's schools has a worse benefits package, and the one that's closer to my work won't let me enroll my spouse. It's just a dumb set-up.I totally understand, Jake, & I'm all for LEGITIMATE steps to control costs. Costs (insurance, malpractice, delivery, etc.) are so high that millions of people are in trouble. I agree with you that I'd prefer to be able to afford my own private policy rather than rely on the coverage bought by my current employer (which means I have to fork over a LOT for COBRA if I leave my employer, just to tide me over the interim before any new employer-sponsored coverage kicks in). But I just don't understand the thinking that says medical care should in general be "free" -- why should it be free any more than food should be free, or water should be free, or shelter should be free? I believe in the concept of the safety net in any civilized society when it comes to the necessities: food, water, shelter, medicine. We all, at least potentially, fall on hard times or bad luck or accidents. But a safety net is a safety net. It doesn't mean you get to buy yourself big-screen TVs & Apple MP3 video players & cool new cell phones while a new state bureaucracy, ostensibly intended to cover everyone, grows fat, lethargic & wasteful with public money. (It's a moot point, anyway, because the state doesn't provide anything for free, as hundreds of people here on the Ledge have already pointed out.) Let's think of something better that takes care of the people who can't take care of themselves & that also respects privacy & liberty.

[HejiraNYC]

And how many foreign doctors work on your laboratories?

Many, actually. I don't understand your point.


How many researchers from other countries have you got developing new treatments? How many had to come to Usa, only because in their Countries hadn't the chance to work?

Many, actually. I don't understand your point.


Besides It's no accident all the major multinationals that made Billions tearing Africa, South America and Middle East into pieces have their headquarters in US.

I don't understand your point here either. By "tearing Africa" I guess you are referring to the (blood) diamond trade, which is, oh yes, monopolized by a corrupt European cartel. And I guess you are not referring to the UK's relentless pursuit of empire, especially in India. But yes, all of the Western World is responsible for taking up an unfair share of the world's resources, but I'm not sure how that pertains to this issue.


You see some people dying only because they can't afford your healthcare system, see poor people thrown into streets from hospitals and think that other Countries should pay for treatments developed in Us also with thousands of foreign doctors and researchers?

I guess it's tempting to think that America is full of savages based upon a "documentary" like "Sicko," but the real truth is that we do have Emergency Rooms, and everybody who presents with a life threatening injury or illness will receive treatment, regardless of whether they are insured or not, and regardless of whether they can pay or not. So that is the ultimate "safety net" for the uninsured. Unfortunately, for those who can afford to pay, it means that an overnight stay at the hospital costs $4000 and an aspirin pill costs $10; the cost to provide free medical care for the poor is essentially spread out to those who can pay.

And don't begrudge the presence of foreign doctors in America. After all, this is a country of immigrants, myself included! Why should the medical field be different from any other segment of American society?


That explains once more the decline of the American Empire.

Romy

Oh please... like the Europeans have been so noble and virtuous! :rolleyes: America is certainly far from perfect, but I think non-Americans should hold up a mirror to themselves before they pass judgment. As an American, I do think we are going through a particularly ugly period in our history, but I also have faith that we will take our knocks and get through it better than before.

[rubytuesday]

Huh? I live in the United States & I fairly recently had a colonoscopy --- & an endoscopy & a 24-hour pH probe & an esophageal manometry & a cardiac stress test & now I take BP meds every day & see my physician twice a year & blood work done in a lab, etc. etc., & every single procedure I've had was covered in large by the insurance coverage I have through my private employer. I owed out-of-pocket a relatively miniscule amount. It hasn't bankrupted me. It's as if people overseas have this idea that every American who requires (or wants) medical care automatically goes bankrupt. I assure you that's far from the case in general.

Yeah but I'm a student and don't have any health cover. I wouldn't want to have to rely on whoever my employer was to assure that I was covered.

[David]

Yeah but I'm a student and don't have any health cover. I wouldn't want to have to rely on whoever my employer was to assure that I was covered.In the United States (despite what you may have heard from movies or political arguing), there are dozens & dozens of affordable, sensible ways for college students to get health insurance.

For example, take the American College Student Association, which I looked up quickly online. You can apply for the lower-tier insurance coverage ($25,000 for medical annually) for an annual premium of about $600 (depending on which state you live in). All registered students taking 6 credit hours are eligible, including both full-time & part-time students. There's even a dental plan & a study abroad plan available.

I spent more than that on Domino's pizza my first year in college.

(Incidentally, membership in the American College Student Association is only $18.)

[rubytuesday]

I get it for free though and don't have to do any seeking out of insurance, it's just sort of a given. I like it free ;)

[Serrart]

Hi HejiraNYc, sorry for answering after many days but my computer had a nervous breakdown ( who can't understand the poor machine ;)).
Rereading my message I had the impression the tone it came out quite aggressive, sorry also for that.

About the foreign doctors:
My point is what we call (no idea what the American expression is) brains' runaways. In other words, the emigration from many countries of high qualified doctors and other professionals, who studied in their homelands but hadn't the chance to find a job up to the par with their qualities. Obviously in a global society this is normal, and it's the reason why I think any form of compensation asked from America to other Countries is just absurd.


I don't understand your point here either. By "tearing Africa" I guess you are referring to the (blood) diamond trade, which is, oh yes, monopolized by a corrupt European cartel. And I guess you are not referring to the UK's relentless pursuit of empire, especially in India. But yes, all of the Western World is responsible for taking up an unfair share of the world's resources, but I'm not sure how that pertains to this issue.

I have never said Europe hasn't any faults, we have plenty actually, many more than those you spoke about. But none of the European Countries had a bigger influence on foreign policy than US. For instance, as far as I know, none of the European Countries constantly supported, politically and practically bloody dictatorships that eliminated dissent kidnapping, torturing, and throwing people out of the airplaines. But I could be wrong.

I guess it's tempting to think that America is full of savages based upon a "documentary" like "Sicko," but the real truth is that we do have Emergency Rooms, and everybody who presents with a life threatening injury or illness will receive treatment, regardless of whether they are insured or not, and regardless of whether they can pay or not. So that is the ultimate "safety net" for the uninsured. Unfortunately, for those who can afford to pay, it means that an overnight stay at the hospital costs $4000 and an aspirin pill costs $10; the cost to provide free medical care for the poor is essentially spread out to those who can pay.

What leaves me speachless is that you (meaning in general) are so accustomed to this system that find normal to pay 10 dollars for an aspirin. It's unethic, it's not fair, and it can't be true that it's a sacrifice necessary to pay the health care for the poor ones. We have public and free hospitals that cure millions of people (including the Pope) and we don't pay 10 dollars for an aspirin. I simply don't see why millions of people of your working class can't have the right to be cured properly (not only for life threating illnesses) if they aren't rich enough to pay an insurance.

Oh please... like the Europeans have been so noble and virtuous! :rolleyes: America is certainly far from perfect, but I think non-Americans should hold up a mirror to themselves before they pass judgment. As an American, I do think we are going through a particularly ugly period in our history, but I also have faith that we will take our knocks and get through it better than before.

There's a misunderstanding here. Talking of American Empire I meant also Europe. We are your colonies, under many points of view, since when US Troops came in Europe to free us from gentlemen like Hitler and Mussolini (totally made in Europe products). It's just that now we see Constantinople ruled by a particularly corrupted and inept emperor. And that's not very reassuring.

Romy