male and female identities

[carrie721]

question for you ledgies. indulge my curiosity.

ladies: what does "being a woman" mean to you?

gents: what does "being a man" mean to you?

as a man/woman, what expectations do you feel are placed on you by society? are they fair? are they unreasonable? do you try to live up to them? why or why not?

what expectations do you place on yourself because of your sex?

feel free to comment on the opposite sex, but i am primarily interested in what your perceptions are of your own sex. :woohoo:

[mylittledemon]

question for you ledgies. indulge my curiosity.

ladies: what does "being a woman" mean to you?

gents: what does "being a man" mean to you?

as a man/woman, what expectations do you feel are placed on you by society? are they fair? are they unreasonable? do you try to live up to them? why or why not?

what expectations do you place on yourself because of your sex?

feel free to comment on the opposite sex, but i am primarily interested in what your perceptions are of your own sex. :woohoo:

I'll chime in here. I think for men, they are generally plugged as the "bread winner" of the family (family with or without children). In my situation my wife makes nearly the same as I do, so tis not the case with me at this point in my life.

But growing up, my dad was the money maker...as it was with most of my friends' families. If sacrifice is the word, its the one most father's seem to make in that their relationships with their wives and children suffer. Maybe they lose sight of what it's about...but it seems that most men have good intentions...to provide for their families (I think its just an inherent thing built into us)...but then years go by and your wife leaves you, kids move away and you're left with "nothing" to show for it.

I've seen in a lot in my own family. It just seems to me that you make a life with someone, and outside of physical and emotional abuse, "boredom" is not an excuse to walk away from all that. It's a hard balance to strike. And even father's that make A LOT of money and are home more often have marital problems, etc.

Maybe its the day and age we're living in and maybe the issue is really about the state of love in our times....one thing leads to another. Am I making sense to anyone here? It's a fear that I have, as a man. I don't want to trade my family life/love for my work. I want my family to be first, but I know I must provide for them. Hanging on to them in the meantime is the hardest part I suppose.

[jannieC]

What a great post, Carrie. For me, being a woman means a lot. I've often thought to myself that I would never want to be a man. Even when I was a little girl, I felt that way. Anyway, I grew up in a totally egalitarian household (in spite of the fact that my father was the breadwinner and my mother was a stay at home mom), so male/female roles aren't as defined for me as maybe they are for others. As a woman, I have been raised to take care of myself, emotionally and financially. My mother made it very clear that it was important to rely strongly upon oneself- if a mate came along, great! But if not, I could survive. So, I'm fortunate that I was raised to be VERY independent.

At the risk of putting too much of myself here on the board, being a woman also means being a mother to me, which some of you know is not physically possible. Finding out I could not have children forced me to redefine some of my my goals and redefine what being a woman really means. Or, I guess what being a *mother* really means.

Sometimes I feel that society puts a lot of pressure on women to be a certain way, and I am fortunate that my immediate circle has not put such pressures on me (birth a child instead of adoption, etc). The field I am in is probably 95% female, which is great. I don't think too much about male female roles in my workplace because I don't encounter it very much. I think that it would be very difficult to be a NON typical woman (or man) in our society. No matter how much education, etc., people are still closed minded and scared of those who don't fit into what is considered to be "normal". Hopefully that will change eventually.

[suzyvermoesen]

mylittledemon; in my case it's a bit similar but different also.
When i was a child, most women/mothers stayed at home to take care of their husband and children and look after the house.
Growing up, i saw more and more women choosing for a career (and financial independency).Emancipation was in full swing and most of my girlfriends
left their parents' house to either go live with their boy friends or to rent a flat on their own. I moved out when i turned 21 and never really regretted it.
I liked living on my own, enjoyd my hobbies such as film, usic,reading,sowing my own clothes and dancing. I met the love of my life when i was 36
and eventually married him when i was 40.
At first i truly enjoyed taking care of all my husband's needs.
I cleaned,cooked,shopped,did laundry,ironing,managed our finances etc..
In short, i did everything my mother had done plus i had a fulltime job as well. So after a few years i started feeling that somewhere along the line
i had "lost" myself. I hardly ever read a book anymore or managed any other hobbies that i used to enjoy (except for going to the movies which my
husband also loves). It just seemed that i never had any time left for myself. In the meantime i have switched to a part-time job (i now work 4 days
instead of 5) and have made several attempts over the years to find/make time for my hobbies with varying success. This year i promised myself
to read at least half an hour every day and take more time out for myself. My husband helps with the ironing and cleaning, but i still feel that women are
better suited to "keep house" than men. (some exceptions excluded ofcourse) And, when i see my husband ironing his jeans, i do feel a twitch of guilt,
i just cannot help it (but trust me, i do resist it :laugh: ). So my problem as a woman is that one part of me wants to take care of everything like my mother and her mother before her did, and the other part of me wants to be free of all those duties and there is also a small part of me that just wants to be taken care of,like in the old Gregory Peck movies.
Maybe it's because i grew up in changing times, maybe i'm too self centered (something my dad said to me once and it stuck ofcourse) I don't know :confused: . For me too, finding a balance is not easy... (does all this make any sense ? )

[carrie721]

brandon - so you are saying you feel driven to be a good provider for your family but fear you'll get so caught up in that quest that you'll end up neglecting your family?

At the risk of putting too much of myself here on the board, being a woman also means being a mother to me, which some of you know is not physically possible.

i would venture to say this is the crux of womanhood for the majority of women out there. i was talking about this with a friend last night, and whereas manhood, as brandon reflected in his post, is something that must be achieved, womanhood is something that is given to us and must be dealt with.

Finding out I could not have children forced me to redefine some of my my goals and redefine what being a woman really means. Or, I guess what being a *mother* really means.

i so get that.

Sometimes I feel that society puts a lot of pressure on women to be a certain way, and I am fortunate that my immediate circle has not put such pressures on me (birth a child instead of adoption, etc). The field I am in is probably 95% female, which is great. I don't think too much about male female roles in my workplace because I don't encounter it very much. I think that it would be very difficult to be a NON typical woman (or man) in our society. No matter how much education, etc., people are still closed minded and scared of those who don't fit into what is considered to be "normal". Hopefully that will change eventually.

and complicating matters, there are different standards for how men and women should act within different segments of the population, and often those standards are at odds with the standards held by greater society. for example: where does a traditionally masculine man fit into gay culture?

mylittledemon; in my case it's a bit similar but different also.
When i was a child, most women/mothers stayed at home to take care of their husband and children and look after the house.
Growing up, i saw more and more women choosing for a career (and financial independency).Emancipation was in full swing and most of my girlfriends
left their parents' house to either go live with their boy friends or to rent a flat on their own. I moved out when i turned 21 and never really regretted it.
I liked living on my own, enjoyd my hobbies such as film, usic,reading,sowing my own clothes and dancing. I met the love of my life when i was 36
and eventually married him when i was 40.
At first i truly enjoyed taking care of all my husband's needs.
I cleaned,cooked,shopped,did laundry,ironing,managed our finances etc..
In short, i did everything my mother had done plus i had a fulltime job as well. So after a few years i started feeling that somewhere along the line
i had "lost" myself. I hardly ever read a book anymore or managed any other hobbies that i used to enjoy (except for going to the movies which my
husband also loves). It just seemed that i never had any time left for myself. In the meantime i have switched to a part-time job (i now work 4 days
instead of 5) and have made several attempts over the years to find/make time for my hobbies with varying success. This year i promised myself
to read at least half an hour every day and take more time out for myself. My husband helps with the ironing and cleaning, but i still feel that women are
better suited to "keep house" than men. (some exceptions excluded ofcourse) And, when i see my husband ironing his jeans, i do feel a twitch of guilt,
i just cannot help it (but trust me, i do resist it :laugh: ). So my problem as a woman is that one part of me wants to take care of everything like my mother and her mother before her did, and the other part of me wants to be free of all those duties and there is also a small part of me that just wants to be taken care of,like in the old Gregory Peck movies.
Maybe it's because i grew up in changing times, maybe i'm too self centered (something my dad said to me once and it stuck ofcourse) I don't know :confused: . For me too, finding a balance is not easy... (does all this make any sense ? )

makes total sense! suzy thanks for sharing your story. sounds like you've gone through a lot and finally struck a healthy balance, even if it's hard to see your husband ironing occasionally ;) and i think your comment about the times you grew up in is spot on. women's roles changed rapidly in the 20th century, so it's easy to see why that would cause some fractured and sometimes contradictory feelings about what is expected of you.

thanks for the responses, everybody, keep 'em coming! :blob2:

[mylittledemon]

brandon - so you are saying you feel driven to be a good provider for your family but fear you'll get so caught up in that quest that you'll end up neglecting your family?



Carrie, I would say mmm...enhh...yeah I guess so. It happened to my parents. I think my father was a very un-emotional person. His way of showing us he loved us was to provide for us. But his relationships with us suffered because of that. I love my dad, and being an adult now, I can understand him a little better. When I was young, I didnt get him, and I just thought Dad was a hard ass. I mean, I suppose the fear all that should keep me "in line" enough to maintain that balance. You know, not let the money-making take precedence over the rest. Then again, sometimes it happens anyway regardless.

[danax6]

mylittledemon; in my case it's a bit similar but different also.
When i was a child, most women/mothers stayed at home to take care of their husband and children and look after the house.
Growing up, i saw more and more women choosing for a career (and financial independency).Emancipation was in full swing and most of my girlfriends
left their parents' house to either go live with their boy friends or to rent a flat on their own. I moved out when i turned 21 and never really regretted it.
I liked living on my own, enjoyd my hobbies such as film, usic,reading,sowing my own clothes and dancing. I met the love of my life when i was 36
and eventually married him when i was 40.
At first i truly enjoyed taking care of all my husband's needs.
I cleaned,cooked,shopped,did laundry,ironing,managed our finances etc..
In short, i did everything my mother had done plus i had a fulltime job as well. So after a few years i started feeling that somewhere along the line
i had "lost" myself. I hardly ever read a book anymore or managed any other hobbies that i used to enjoy (except for going to the movies which my
husband also loves). It just seemed that i never had any time left for myself. In the meantime i have switched to a part-time job (i now work 4 days
instead of 5) and have made several attempts over the years to find/make time for my hobbies with varying success. This year i promised myself
to read at least half an hour every day and take more time out for myself. My husband helps with the ironing and cleaning, but i still feel that women are
better suited to "keep house" than men. (some exceptions excluded ofcourse) And, when i see my husband ironing his jeans, i do feel a twitch of guilt,
i just cannot help it (but trust me, i do resist it :laugh: ). So my problem as a woman is that one part of me wants to take care of everything like my mother and her mother before her did, and the other part of me wants to be free of all those duties and there is also a small part of me that just wants to be taken care of,like in the old Gregory Peck movies.
Maybe it's because i grew up in changing times, maybe i'm too self centered (something my dad said to me once and it stuck ofcourse) I don't know :confused: . For me too, finding a balance is not easy... (does all this make any sense ? )See, my ideas regarding all of this are so warped due to my upbringing (no mother around, my dad was in charge of our household even though he was a few years younger than I am now). I think that really changed my idea of what "being a woman" entails. I'm hardly a feminist, but for me women fulfilling the traditional role of taking care of a family has always really irked me. What irks me more is men who push this idea onto their wives/significant others (though I realize there are some women that love to do just that). I am as independent as they come, even more so growing up, because I was forced to take over all the things that were normally a wife or a mother's job since my dad had to go out and earn a living. Maybe that's why I resent it so much. I would die if I had to live like that.

On the other hand, my body and mind are telling me I do really want a child. I guess I just won't go about it the traditional way.

I don't know, I'll get back to you with a more specific answer. :laugh:

[Stew_Matthews]

It is an interesting question Carrie, but difficult to know where you start

I think without having experienced life as the other sex, it is difficult to determine whether the expectations placed on oneself are because of your personality or sex. Is someone who is say, particularly driven/ambitious like that because of their make up or because of their sex? I don’t know. To what extent is personality determined by sex, again I don’t know.

I’ve seen enough of the world to recognise that much of it is dominated by the traditional definitions of men’s and women’s roles. There is a real absence of equality of opportunity and the West is little different, it’s just less explicit than in China for example.

In answer to the question ‘what does being a man mean’ for me – essentially it means choice. In most aspects of life, I have choices – where to live, what to do, who I spend my time with, how I spend my money. In large part, I think this is because I am a white, middle class male, to a lesser degree it is my educational efforts that opened up a good career in the oil industry. An industry that for women, is still pretty much closed off.

An interesting one to mull over…………..

[Sarah]

ladies: what does "being a woman" mean to you?

it means knowing that my place is in the kitchen, and speaking when i'm spoken to.

as a man/woman, what expectations do you feel are placed on you by society? are they fair? are they unreasonable? do you try to live up to them? why or why not?

be pretty! of course it's fair; being pretty is the most important thing. i mean, i guess it's unreasonable if you're born ugly, but hey, if there weren't ugly people, we might not know what "pretty" actually means.


what expectations do you place on yourself because of your sex?


oh, i dunno. i'm too busy making dinner for my breadwinner to think about stuff like this!



good topic, carrie! :thumbsup:

[trackaghost]

ladies: what does "being a woman" mean to you?


Getting to wear better clothes! And I'm only half joking about that.
I've never wanted to be a man but I've often been envious of the opportunities afforded to men I've known simply because they are male. Even though I have an amazing mother, I've never defined it through motherhood either because that's never been my number one priority. I guess I'm saying I don't know :laugh: I just know I'm pretty comfortable how I am.



as a man/woman, what expectations do you feel are placed on you by society? are they fair? are they unreasonable? do you try to live up to them? why or why not?
what expectations do you place on yourself because of your sex?


I am 100 per cent a feminist and I've never understood why woman are so against calling themselves that. When I was a teen I read Backlash by Susan Faludi and The Beauty Myth by Naomi Wolf, and they have really stayed with me. When I was a kid I believed I could do anything I wanted and it was only as I grew older that I realised that I had less opportunities than my brothers. I definitely think I had to work harder and prove myself more. I also think I'm judged on how I look way more than men, and it's something I constantly think about: the negative and positive ways it can affect you, when it doesn't really have anything to do with your abilities. I've seen it happen so many times.
I also think women are often their worst enemies, they can be just as sexist, if not moreso, than men against other women, and that's pretty difficult to combat. Imagine a black person saying, "yeah, we really shouldn't have equal opportunities"! It just wouldn't happen but it happens all the time with women. Some think women really are second class citizens who should be relegated to the kitchen because that's what they do best, others think they are somehow better than other women and they are successful simply because they are special.
I dunno, it depresses me to think about it to tell the truth.

[carrie721]

it means knowing that my place is in the kitchen, and speaking when i'm spoken to.

i told you to make me a sammich, woman. :mad:


I am 100 per cent a feminist and I've never understood why woman are so against calling themselves that.

i think it's become a loaded word. these days it's often associated with male bashing, victim mentality, and gender politics, and many women - although they believe in equal opportunity/treatment for both sexes - do not identify with those ideas. feminism is supposed to be about choice but there is a lot of derision from feminists towards women who choose a more traditional lifestyle. so i can understand why some women would reject the label. i qualify it and say i'm an equity feminist. i think men and women should have equal opportunities but i don't like to spend much time in the murky waters of who is oppressing whom.

When I was a teen I read Backlash by Susan Faludi and The Beauty Myth by Naomi Wolf, and they have really stayed with me. When I was a kid I believed I could do anything I wanted and it was only as I grew older that I realised that I had less opportunities than my brothers.

this was pretty much my experience too. it wasn't till i was 15 or 16 that i realized that some roads are different or more difficult for women.

I also think women are often their worst enemies, they can be just as sexist, if not moreso, than men against other women, and that's pretty difficult to combat.

so true.

[Sarah]

feminism is supposed to be about choice but there is a lot of derision from feminists towards women who choose a more traditional lifestyle. so i can understand why some women would reject the label.

yeah really. it's fun to listen to some of my feminists friends argue about traditional type topics.. like shaving, for instance. "are you shaving (or not shaving) for your husband? are you shaving for yourself?" and then it turns into this huge thing. in a way, it's almost going backwards, because it comes across as hens pecking at each other in the coop while the cock is off doing god-only-knows-what around the barnyard.

[carrie721]

yeah really. it's fun to listen to some of my feminists friends argue about traditional type topics.. like shaving, for instance. "are you shaving (or not shaving) for your husband? are you shaving for yourself?" and then it turns into this huge thing. in a way, it's almost going backwards, because it comes across as hens pecking at each other in the coop while the cock is off doing god-only-knows-what around the barnyard.

right. it's silly.rather than sitting around worrying about whether you're being oppressed by the patriarchy, couldn't you be out ... doing ****? :laugh:

[sara1998]

I hope what I say makes sense. Sometimes, I have a rather good point, just a hard time in getting it across.
Quick background: I was brought up in a fairly traditional household. My mother didn't work until I went to Kindergarden. My father always took on breadwinner responsibilities. Mom was always a "mom". She cleaned and took care of me. (my father is the cook...ha!) A very sweet and loving individual. I honestly don't remember much of my father as a child, because he was always at work, but mainly, because he let my mother raise me. He really didn't have a part in it. My mother is kind of meek... I mean, she can't even balance her own checkbook, where my father is a rock. Strong and independent.

ladies: what does "being a woman" mean to you?
So, now that I'm grown and have been out on my own for 10 years now, I have somewhat taken after my father. Strange but true. Meaning, I am a very strong, independent individual, and I don't rely on anyone for anything. I work full time, go to school part time, cook, mow the lawn, fix minor things around the house, pay all my bills with my own money. But on the other hand, I have also taken some after my mother. I raise my kid plus one that I willingly took on, clean nearly everything, I am very empathetic towards others, sympathetic, sensitive and loving, especially towards my children. I do all the household errands, and all the school functions. I apologize, because I realize that some of this, at least for me, equates being a woman as being a mother. But a mother is what I personally am first and foremost. As a single mother, I am forced to take on the role as man and woman in the household. Mental strength, independence, sensitivity, being loving, and being the household provider are just a few things that mean being a woman to me. That is all that I really know to do.

as a woman, what expectations do you feel are placed on you by society? are they fair? are they unreasonable? do you try to live up to them? why or why not?
I think society's role perception has changed so much for women, however, there's still a traditional spin on it. Sometimes, I still think women are expected to be caretakers, soft hearted, pushovers. I think women are expected to be the primary caretakers of their children. Hell, I know some who think women should not be in the workplace. (hehe) And I think that sometimes, even when the woman does work, it is percieved to be the womans place to come home to cook and clean, while the men sit back and watch the game. I know this isn't always the case. When I was married, we both shared household responsibilities, but do you know how many women told me how lucky I was to have that?? That really blows mmy mind... And when something happens to a child, and say it was heard on the news, sometimes, the first words out of some mouths are "well, where was the mother when that happened?" What about the father? Are they not as responsible as we are? So, to an extent, no the perceptions are not fair. As far as living up to expectations, I only strive to live up to the expectations of myself and my girls. I'm not concerned with society's perceptions of me.

what expectations do you place on yourself because of your sex?I don't know that I really place any expectations on myself based on sex. My expectations on myself are on what needs to happen to make things work.

[danax6]

i told you to make me a sammich, woman. :mad:
Yeah, did she not make herself clear? :mad:

[carrie721]

^ maria that post is awesome and i thank you for it! :xoxo:

[danax6]

feminism is supposed to be about choice but there is a lot of derision from feminists towards women who choose a more traditional lifestyle. so i can understand why some women would reject the label.
That's it exactly.

[trackaghost]

i think it's become a loaded word. these days it's often associated with male bashing, victim mentality, and gender politics, and many women - although they believe in equal opportunity/treatment for both sexes - do not identify with those ideas. feminism is supposed to be about choice but there is a lot of derision from feminists towards women who choose a more traditional lifestyle. so i can understand why some women would reject the label. i qualify it and say i'm an equity feminist. i think men and women should have equal opportunities but i don't like to spend much time in the murky waters of who is oppressing whom.


Well, I totally agree with that, it has become a loaded word and it's a shame, because feminism has become such a dirty word when really it should be an empowering one. Again, in a lot of ways, women only have themselves to blame here. I wish the word had more positive connotations for most people, instead of "man-hater" or whatever. I just mean it as wanting to be treated equally.

[carrie721]

Yeah, did she not make herself clear? :mad:

seriously. :mad: and a beer. :mad:

[Sarah]

Yeah, did she not make herself clear? :mad:

you should speak when you're spoken to :mad:

and for the record, if i touch a beer, it's mine. :laugh:

[mikeschmike]

I don't know how much I can contribute to this, as I think I'm just going to end up echoing most of what has already been said here. I never really had much exposure to a "traditional" male/female role with the exception of my grandparents. Even at a young age, I never wanted to be the guy who expected his dinner sitting in front of him at a certain time. I never thought I could command such a thing just because of what was between my legs.

To me, a big part of being a man means being able to be strong enough to be there for others while still being able to take care of myself. Whether that means being a shoulder to cry on or reaching something on the high shelf.

[carrie721]

Well, I totally agree with that, it has become a loaded word and it's a shame, because feminism has become such a dirty word when really it should be an empowering one. Again, in a lot of ways, women only have themselves to blame here. I wish the word had more positive connotations for most people, instead of "man-hater" or whatever. I just mean it as wanting to be treated equally.

oh, i knew what you meant! :xoxo: it's a shame that it's become a dirty word, but i agree that women are to blame. it seems that modern feminists have gotten mired in victim mentality and that has informed the entire movement.

[JazmenFlowers]

oh gawd. what a topic! a great one, but I get so rebellious with things like this, I really need to think about it.

[carrie721]

I don't know how much I can contribute to this, as I think I'm just going to end up echoing most of what has already been said here. I never really had much exposure to a "traditional" male/female role with the exception of my grandparents. Even at a young age, I never wanted to be the guy who expected his dinner sitting in front of him at a certain time. I never thought I could command such a thing just because of what was between my legs.

To me, a big part of being a man means being able to be strong enough to be there for others while still being able to take care of myself. Whether that means being a shoulder to cry on or reaching something on the high shelf.

you're good at both :xoxo:

oh gawd. what a topic! a great one, but I get so rebellious with things like this, I really need to think about it.

ooh. share plz. jazzy + rebellion = a happy carrie.

[carrie721]

I think without having experienced life as the other sex, it is difficult to determine whether the expectations placed on oneself are because of your personality or sex. Is someone who is say, particularly driven/ambitious like that because of their make up or because of their sex? I don’t know. To what extent is personality determined by sex, again I don’t know.

hmm. well personality certainly is another variable. but i think by comparing notes with other women and being observant in my family and elsewhere i have a pretty good idea of what society is expected of women, even if i don't feel the pressure myself.

In answer to the question ‘what does being a man mean’ for me – essentially it means choice. In most aspects of life, I have choices – where to live, what to do, who I spend my time with, how I spend my money. In large part, I think this is because I am a white, middle class male, to a lesser degree it is my educational efforts that opened up a good career in the oil industry. An industry that for women, is still pretty much closed off.

An interesting one to mull over…………..

choice. that's a good one. thanks stew!

[sara1998]

you should speak when you're spoken to :mad:

and for the record, if i touch a beer, it's mine. :laugh:

LMAO!!!!!!

[sara1998]

^ maria that post is awesome and i thank you for it! :xoxo:

uh, you're welcome?
May I ask what made you start this thread?

[carrie721]

uh, you're welcome?

sorry, was that the wrong response? :laugh: what i meant was f*ck you. :laugh:

May I ask what made you start this thread?

just curiosity. something that's been on my mind.

[shackin'up]

being a male: be feminine when she needs you to.

Beside that. Fukc gentile and hard. But never try to win an argument.




:xoxo:

[shackin'up]

Oh my God. That was my fifththousanth post.



:sorry:

[sara1998]

sorry, was that the wrong response? :laugh: what i meant was f*ck you. :laugh:
There ya go... that's a little more expected. :lol:
What I meant was, I wasn't sure if that post was what you were looking for.
-smartass...

[sara1998]

Oh my God. That was my fifththousanth post.



:sorry:

haha! glad it was a monumental one... mr. Fukc gentile and hard...

[michelle2677]

ladies: what does "being a woman" mean to you?

well, what a topic.

i, personally, don't feel that i've ever been held back because of my gender. that may also have something to do with the career path i've chosen. It's predominantly female, so i really didn't have a hard time getting "in". i've never been the "stay at home, have your meals on the table when you get back from work" kinda gal, and i've never dated men who expected that of me. I also learned very quickly and at a young agethat I was going to have to learn to be able to provide for myself. I watched as my mother dated a string of men, and everytime one relationship was over, we were flat broke and didn't have a pot to piss in. Now, I know she did whatever she could to provide for me but I also feel bad for her because she's never made it on her own up until recently (i'm so proud of her for that :angel: )

I never wanted to be like that so i made sure i put myself in a position to be able to take care of myself. I'm also very independent :laugh: I can open my own door, thank-you-very-much. Not that I would get in a tizzy if a guy did it-it's a nice gesture. but usually when the newness wears off of a relationship, i like to get my own doors.

I moved out on my own recently and tried to put together an entertainment center. omg it's horrible. just horrible. one foot isn't screwed in all the way but I did it. My dad asked me "why didn't you call me?". because there is that sense of "i can do it on my own" that I always have to have. i'll also be using power tools later on tonight :laugh:

I tend to not wear make-up and I usually throw my hair up in a bun. but there's also a very "girly" side to me as well. if I'm going out, I DO like to curl my hair, put make up on and get dressed up. Heels, skirts...it's fun. So i love that about being a woman. You can go from blue jeans/t-shirt to an evening gown and still be the same woman.

god this is getting long :o

i'd also call myself a feminist, but I'm not a male basher. well...i mean..sometimes they need it :laugh: :p all in jest. i had a conversation with my grandmother and it really bothered me. My aunt recently left her husband and since then she's a new person. She wears bright clothing, where before she stayed as plain as she could, not to be noticed. She goes out, talks, socializes, and is full of life, where before, something was holding her back. I'm pretty sure the relationship was abusive, and on top of it, he expected the dinner on the table when he got home and her to cook/clean. I was almost jumping out of my seat for joy. Just at how she did it. (I'm not close to her btw...) she was held down for so long and she crawled out of that relationship, a much stronger person. i told my grandmother i enjoyed it because she wasn't being held down. My grandmother explained how some women LIKE to be held down. some women want men to explain to them how they want it done and tell them when to speak, what to wear, how to act. I can only imagine my grandmother was speaking from experience because i think she needs that affirmation from my grandfather. her job is to be his wife. that is all. to socialize, prepare parties...but other than that, she has no identity and it really makes me sad. i dont' think i could ever be like that. There's nothing wrong with it, it's just hard for me to understand...being the way i am.

omg I'm sorry so long :o jesus.

[amber]

question for you ledgies. indulge my curiosity.

ladies: what does "being a woman" mean to you?

gents: what does "being a man" mean to you?

as a man/woman, what expectations do you feel are placed on you by society? are they fair? are they unreasonable? do you try to live up to them? why or why not?

what expectations do you place on yourself because of your sex?

feel free to comment on the opposite sex, but i am primarily interested in what your perceptions are of your own sex. :woohoo:

Wow, cool I happened on this. It's so rare that interesting non rote questions come up. Also I didn't want to read the other responses, so sorry if I repeat.

question for you ledgies. indulge my curiosity.

ladies: what does "being a woman" mean to you?

Nothing, really. It means I have boobs (kinda) and a vjay. I don't really think about it, until I actually compare with some men, or someone asks me, or something. Still even then I only usually could describe what I am, not what a woman is. I mean, how could you speak for all of womanhood, all women? That is absurd. And me being not very traditionally "womanly" in most ways, I really have no connection to those aspects of "womanhood". Not that they aren't valid and regular, I just don't do that very much. And I'm not discounting it, either, because I think anyone that does anything who is a woman is doing something "womanly", no matter what it is. It is womanly because they are a woman and they are doing it. Seems pretty simple. Anyhoot...

gents: what does "being a man" mean to you?
Pass.

as a man/woman, what expectations do you feel are placed on you by society? are they fair? are they unreasonable? do you try to live up to them? why or why not?
I'm always surprised by the expectations because I have little concept of them, but I always do see strongly that they exist, are not fair, and are mostly unreasonable. I try to live up to them, sometimes, but not really. Only as far as my natural stereotypical "feminine wiles" express themselves naturally. Which is not too much. Which is a problem. Which is why I say there are expectations and they are not fair. Cause I have seen it and been surprised. I've all my life wondered why I can't be how I am and it be acceptable. But that could be somewhat boy or girl. It's just worse if it's from a girl, not as acceptable.
Although, to say the other side, lots of times I think people also expect men to be pleasant and acquiescent. Not as much, but it seems like either way the nicer and more acquiescent you are, the better you will have it. I just think people expect/will accept that even more of women than of men. Quite a bit more.

what expectations do you place on yourself because of your sex?
I expect myself to have a vag. I see that other people expect things of me that I would never have, but what can I do? Mostly those expectations are "being nice" and "being patient" and "not being impatient" and "flirting, even though it's obvious you are totally lame and I don't like you" or "speaking to you more than one sentence and being nice even though I never, ever, would want to talk to you again and have discerned you are totally lame, at least for me".


feel free to comment on the opposite sex, but i am primarily interested in what your perceptions are of your own sex. :woohoo:

Err...In one sense I don't think about it much because I just be. But in another sense I think about it alot because lots of people don't accept who I be. Which is confusing, since I'm honest. So I'm just very confused about expectations that I never intimated were part of my personality. I don't trick people.
And of course lots of times men are the most offended. I don't know who ever told them they had the right to...think stuff...but the bad part is that I could say things to them that is just regular, like "I don't want to go over there" and they will totally misinterpret everything, and take much offense. So, therefore, they are kinda lame, of course there are exceptions.

But for girls, I'm often frustrated when girls don't just do what they want. Of course I know all the pressures to do...other, or please someone, or something. But I have little tolerance.
That said, I usually like to hang out with chicks more because they (often) have more subtle sense of humor, and sometimes they aren't trying to sleep with me, which is refreshing because then we can just talk about real things that are important, without tension. Granted, lots of my girlfriends have been waiting to sleep w/me...or...like, 3 of them, not all of them...but still it was better and more comfortable.
If you are talking about work and such, I have no doubt that women are mispercieved and underrated. No doubt. It's one of my biggest frustrations. All my life, everyone knew that I was whatever. Smart in school, good at such and such and such tons of stuff.
But now when I am confronted with people who don't know that, I see every time that they misjudge me big time. Not everyone, but most job people. Also some regular people.
No one ever thinks I am as competent, smart, learned, skilled, as fast a learner, etc. as I really am. I had a couple jobs where they did, but mostly I am, I think, judged by some criteria that I don't understand (having no knowledge of roles, and how people should act, and stuff, and being pretty guileless when it comes to that)
and I very much think I am judged differently as a girl. I also think I might be judged differently sometimes as a pretty girl. Although it goes back and forth of who thinks I am a pretty girl. That's my point, I can't be sure. I'm not that pretty, but some people think I am, I suppose. I never have that assumption, but sometimes I get the feeling that people don't believe me and are paying attention to something else. I hesitate strongly to attribute it to looks, cause I'm just regular, but sometimes I think it is about that. Even though I wouldn't think of it, I think other girls do.
That's my weirdest thing about "my sex" is that it seems I hear about so many more devious thoughts from them that I would never have. I feel like a real naife. I always assume that other girls are nice and don't care about lame stuff. People have told me, and I have seen, kinda, that that might not be true. People might be jealous and not well wishing and petty about things that don't matter.
That's the worst thing about my sex I can think of. That's the thing about my sex that I would seek to remove about the perception of us. I thought once upon a time that all was easy and right, and that stuff was just a stereotype, but as a I go along in life, I am sad to find out that girls really do care about **** that isn't that important, and will project and live that shallow wrongness.
When I am "jealous" of someone? It is never with the intent to wish them anything but well. I am glad they are fab. All I think is, like, "oh, they are nice, or in shape, or beautiful, or gracious, or funny, or smart, or witty, or something - or lots of those things - that is why they are attractive and lovely to others.
And I never think of that as something for me to tear down by commenting on something meaningless, or to begrudge them and be mad or standoffish - I only think of that thing as something I could learn, or will never look like so I like the way I look, and basically overall never think anything like that is a competition. My theory is, if I am with the nicest, most beautiful, most clever, most talented people...how can I lose? Aren't those the very people I would love to talk to?
Plus, it's never anyone else's fault what they lack, or don't have, or what they think someone else has. It's only their fault how they react to what they perceive is "better" then they are, and lastly it is their fault that they don't believe what they are is good, and the best they can be. You have to know your strengths, which doesn't mean you can't acknowledge others who have strengths you don't admire. Them having a strengths takes nothing from you. Only you can take things from you. And if you are lucky, you have the chance to learn their strengths, especially when they are so different from your own. Cause you already know your own strengths. These other people offer you a perspective of something you didn't have before. Something that is not innate to you.
And so, you should embrace that. You should learn. Everyone should try to learn without ego. It's hard sometimes, but you just have to remind yourself.

So about my own sex, I try to surround myself with the best examples possible, and I never have expectations about gender roles. It makes me sad when my friends have expectations of that nature that they think they should have to do. But it works out. Like, cook if you want to. If you don't, don't. Do the other thing you are good at. So, you don't like children. Do some other thing! That's what I'm saying is that gender roles are nearly meaningless to me, and only gain meaning when I'm being judged for a quality I never knew I was supposed to have, and can't even see now logically why I should have it.

And praise to my mom and dad, these roles never even entered my consciousness until I hit the other, real world. I guess that makes me ill equipped, but I would never trade it. Both my parents were both. I guess the fact that all girls and boys in all my family did sports and were headstrong, I dunno. No one even ever talked about anything like what girls and boys were supposed to do. Except my dad said he wished the house was clean, and my mom didn't really clean it cause she was busy doing actual important things...art and school...I dunno...

[littlewolf]

I´m very much in same frame of mind as Amber.
I´ve never understood this,"who am i/i don´t know myself" thing.
I´m me with my faults and good sides,that´s all.

Being a man means that i drool after women,if i were gay i wouldn´t do even that.
I don´t expect anything from anybody,be as you will,
whether i like it or not is not important,
it´s your choice,go ahead.

Only thing i´ve wondered is,
are women closer to their children because of pregnancy?
I don´t have kids myself,but visiting my cousins i can spend a whole day with their children.
Until they start to cry that is,then it´s, "it´s your child,i´m off"
I´ve sometimes asked from guys that have children, can they stand the crying and they haven´t given me an answer that would make sense.

And there is one thing that i do envy from women,
it´s their understanding of clothes.
When i go to shop to buy a shirt,i look at it,it´s either yes or no.
If a woman looks at a shirt,it´s either yes,no or most importantly
"it should be more like that or this bit i don´t like"
If i would have that i wouldn´t be down to my last 3 shirts,
Luckily clothes are lasting kind,right now i´m wearing a shirt i bought 9 years ago.
i only buy clothes when it´s absolutely necessary.

[skcin]

i would venture to say this is the crux of womanhood for the majority of women out there. i was talking about this with a friend last night, and whereas manhood, as brandon reflected in his post, is something that must be achieved, womanhood is something that is given to us and must be dealt with.




YES! Spot on! How many times have I told you guys about my annoyance with the assumption that I should want to have kids because I'm female? If I don't, why does that make me cold, or heartless, or less female, or just plain f*cked up?

I think much of it has to do with times changing, because 50 (****, even 20) years ago, that IS how it was. That IS what was the norm, so it was assumed & expected. I guess it's scary that many people still think this way, that it's a woman's job to take care of the household & family FIRST - everything else comes after & is somehow less important.


When I was married, we both shared household responsibilities, but do you know how many women told me how lucky I was to have that?? That really blows mmy mind... And when something happens to a child, and say it was heard on the news, sometimes, the first words out of some mouths are "well, where was the mother when that happened?" What about the father? Are they not as responsible as we are? So, to an extent, no the perceptions are not fair.

Preach it. I'm always like "what do you mean, I'm lucky? That's the way it SHOULD be!"

being a male: be feminine when she needs you to.

Beside that. Fukc gentile and hard. But never try to win an argument

I'd rather you fukc me Jewish, but whatever....


:laugh:

Wow, cool I happened on this. It's so rare that interesting non rote questions come up. Also I didn't want to read the other responses, so sorry if I repeat.



In the spirit of this comment, I didn't read yours. :laugh:


What makes me a woman? It's hard to separate what I think from what society says makes me a woman. Like, is it just the fact that I have boobs & a uterus? OK, then what about transgendered people - if someone feels they are actually a woman, but they have a penis, who am I to say "nope, you're not a woman."

Now for emotional/mental traits. I feel that I am a caring individual, but I don't know if that's because I'm female. :shrug: I'm also stubborn & strong willed - is that because I'm a woman? No, people would probably say that makes me a bitch. :cool:

I like body soaps & lotions & perfumes, I like to dress well & flatter my figure - does this make me "girly?" If I didn't like these things, would I be unfeminine?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that, for me, sex doesn't have a whole hell of a lot to do with people themselves. We all are way too unique as individuals to make blanket statements about what woman should be/do or vice versa. And I resent that society & the media try to do so. I tend to separate people more into good/bad cool/asshole rather than male/female, or gay/straight, or black/white, or other obvious traits.

[LiamMcConville]

gents: what does "being a man" mean to you?

I'm only sixteen, so here's what I feel what is expected of a teenaged boy.

Apparently, we're only supposed to want to have sex. Sex, sex, and more sex. And I mean, I'm all for having sex, but for whatever reason, I want to be in love with a girl before I have sex with her. (Mind you, I'm still a virgin. And right about now I know "FRESH MEAT" is running through all your Cougar minds, but contain yourselfs until I'm 18.)

I work at a resturant, and every guy over 19 tells me that I need to find some slut and bang her, just to get it over with. And when I tell them that's not what I want to do, I want to wait and actually loose it to a girl that I'm in love with, I'm automatically a queer. :shrug:

Also, I'm expected to not care about anything that surrounds me. I'm not supposed to care about what color my bedroom is, I'm not supposed to be in Leadership, I'm not supposed to care about the future. I'm expected to play a sport, dress like an idiot, and love Greenday and the musical stylings of Chris Brown. God forbid I like Fleetwood Mac and Elton John.

I don't think most people around me know how to interperate my mature, charasmatic personality, so most people just assume I'm gay. It gets obnoxious, but I know that one day I'll be most of these people's employeer. So, I'm looking foward to that.


This got kind of ranty, and I'm a little bit apprehensive about posting it...But here goes nothing. :shrug:

[Stephanie]

This is an excellent topic, and one I have been thinking of for the past year. Prior to this year, I felt pretty gender equal, if that makes sense. I worked as a Doctor and hubby worked as a lawyer, and the incomes were fairly equal. What I didn't realize during that time was that I was doing the lions share of the house keeping because I had time and I didn't mind.

Enter child #1. I dearly love her and would give my life for her, but I had misconceptions about how much the father would help out. It seems that in general she is believed to be MY child to care for rather than OURS in terms of duties. And I am back to work 4 days a week, and was doing the chores still. Just because I am FEMALE.

So I said, this S*** has got to change and I am still working on changing it. Hubby does alot more chores now, and it is getting more equal around here. Don't get me wrong, he takes care of the baby, but just not like I do. For instance, I have done all the night wakings since forever.

So I think gender roles suck, and in this day and age if you both work, then taking care of a child and home should be split.

On the other hand, if anything ever happened to my spouse, or I was left or something, I could support myself and my child without any outside help. I see so many people, especially the nurses in my office, who stay married because they rely on the primary breadwinner for support. My dad taught me to never do that, so I worked hard to be self sufficient.

The great thing about being a woman/mommy is the bond you share with your child. No one can recreate that, it is special.

[Miss Vicky]

I want to wait and actually loose it to a girl that I'm in love with.
I'm not supposed to care about what color my bedroom is, I'm not supposed to be in Leadership, I'm not supposed to care about the future.
It gets obnoxious, but I know that one day I'll be most of these people's employeer.


It's lose. Loose is the opposite of tight.
The phrase at the end of the first sentence should read with whom I'm in love; ending a sentence with a preposition is grammatically incorrect.
Those commas should either be semicolons or periods.
I believe the word you're looking for in that last sentence is employer.

Unless you plan to pursue a field where proper use of the English language does not matter, please keep in mind that your self-proclaimed maturity and charisma will only get you so far. Being well spoken and well educated is probably more important than those other attributes. Also, keep in mind that so-called charisma can be perceived as cockiness and lead to resentment by those you expect to employ and by those in the position to promote you to such a level.

[bretonbanquet]

It's lose. Loose is the opposite of tight.
The phrase at the end of the first sentence should read with whom I'm in love; ending a sentence with a preposition is grammatically incorrect.
Those commas should either be semicolons or periods.
I believe the word you're looking for in that last sentence is employer.

Unless you plan to pursue a field where proper use of the English language doesn't matter, please keep in mind that your self-proclaimed maturity and charisma will only get you so far. Being well spoken and well educated is probably more important than those other attributes. Also keep in mind that so-called charisma can be perceived as cockiness and lead to resentment by those you expect to employ and also by those in the position to promote you to such a level.

"Ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I shall not put" :rolleyes:

Seriously, it may be grammatically incorrect in a strict sense, but it is increasingly accepted as common usage in speech, and in informal circumstances. Which, as I am sure everyone would agree, applies to a message board on the internet. As a language changes, and English is developing constantly, it is important to keep up. Likewise, it is not considered acceptable to contract "does not" to "doesn't" in formal prose, so one has to be consistent with one's application of the rules.

If you wanted to apply strict grammatical rules to every post on this forum, you would be here all day. Why did you pick Liam's post particularly? Was it the self-proclaimed maturity and charisma? :laugh: I confess that I cannot defend him on that score. :rolleyes: Incidentally, your last sentence is crying out for a comma :p

[Miss Vicky]

Now, to actually answer the questions:

<li>What does "being a woman" mean to you?

<li>As a woman, what expectations do you feel are placed on you by society? are they fair? are they unreasonable? do you try to live up to them? why or why not?

<li>What expectations do you place on yourself because of your sex?


In all honesty, I don't really know what being a woman means to me. I think the common perceptions and expectations that society has placed on my gender has caused me to feel somewhat alienated from womanhood. As a result, I'm not sure that I've placed any gender-specific expectations on myself.

Society - while on the surface appears to encourage individuality in girls - I think still expects young women to simply follow the crowd - to obsess over physical beauty, from body size to make up, fashion and hairstyles. We are told to pursue education and employment, yet we're still expected to, at some point, settle down and essentially become some man's brood mare and personal servant.

While I don't bother trying to live up to this standard, I find the reactions of those around me to be really disheartening. I can sense my mother's utter frustration at my refusal to care about what clothing styles, accessories and hairdos are in fashion and also my refusal to wear makeup. As for being some happy homemaker, I don't see myself ever filling that role. The sanctity of marriage has been so corrupted by shotgun weddings, marriages of convenience, gold-digging, rampant adultery and high divorce rates that the whole thing is really just a joke to me. As for children, I no desire to be a mother, which further frustrates my own mother and causes confusion in other people.

[Miss Vicky]

Why did you pick Liam's post particularly? Was it the self-proclaimed maturity and charisma? :laugh: I confess that I cannot defend him on that score. :rolleyes: Incidentally, your last sentence is crying out for a comma :p


I edited. Sorry for the infractions.

As for your question, you hit the nail on the head.

Liam: You're only 16. You might want to actually reach some true level of maturity before you start spouting that kind of self-praise.

[Sarah]

I don't understand how to love someone (romantically, of course) without having sex with them beforehand. It's such an important part of a happy, satisfying relationship. I would be so freakin' disappointed if I fell in love with someone, finally got the chance to bed them, and it sucked. Damn that! No way!

I'm not saying I love based on my lust, I'm just sayin'.

[LiamMcConville]

Miss Vicky, you've changed my life.

Thank you.

It's lose. Loose is the opposite of tight.
The phrase at the end of the first sentence should read with whom I'm in love; ending a sentence with a preposition is grammatically incorrect.
Those commas should either be semicolons or periods.
I believe the word you're looking for in that last sentence is employer.

Unless you plan to pursue a field where proper use of the English language does not matter, please keep in mind that your self-proclaimed maturity and charisma will only get you so far. Being well spoken and well educated is probably more important than those other attributes. Also, keep in mind that so-called charisma can be perceived as cockiness and lead to resentment by those you expect to employ and by those in the position to promote you to such a level.

So says the Veterinary technician. :rolleyes:

[Miss Vicky]

Miss Vicky, you've changed my life.

Thank you.



So says the Veterinary technician. :rolleyes:

I guess I'm getting a taste of the maturity and charisma on which you pride yourself. Well done.

[LiamMcConville]

I edited. Sorry for the infractions.

As for your question, you hit the nail on the head.

Liam: You're only 16. You might want to actually reach some true level of maturity before you start spouting that kind of self-praise.

How did I miss this the first time around?

Trust me, I didn't just one day look in the mirror and whisper to myself "My god, I'm mature AND charismatic!"

I've just heard it from every adult I've ever had a twenty minute conversation with. :shrug: I'm sorry you haven't enjoyed that pleasure.

[Miss Vicky]

I've just heard it from every adult I've ever had a twenty minute conversation with. :shrug: I'm sorry you haven't enjoyed that pleasure.


Oh, I'm sure I'd get great pleasure out of speaking face to face with the likes of you.

:rolleyes:

[bretonbanquet]

So says the Veterinary technician. :rolleyes:

What's wrong with being a vet? What do you plan on doing for a living?

[carrie721]

guys, if i had wanted my thread to end up in an argument, i would have started it :laugh:

[Miss Vicky]

guys, if i had wanted my thread to end up in an argument, i would have started it :laugh:

Carrie, this is the Ledge. Civilized discussion is not our forte.

At least, it is not my forte. ;)

[LiamMcConville]

What's wrong with being a vet? What do you plan on doing for a living?

Nothing is wrong with being a vet, nothing is wrong with being a vet TECH, unless the latter decides to spout of some pompous bull**** when they're not even one to talk.

At this very moment I plan on being a High School Principal.

[carrie721]

There ya go... that's a little more expected. :lol:
What I meant was, I wasn't sure if that post was what you were looking for.
-smartass...

bitch :D

Carrie, this is the Ledge. Civilized discussion is not our forte.

At least, it is not my forte. ;)

we are ledgies. and we are not nice.

:cool:

[Miss Vicky]

to spout of some pompous bull**** when they're not even one to talk.

How am I not one to talk?

Never on these boards have I claimed to be either charismatic or mature.

I own my immaturity. No denial here. :wavey:

[Phoenix]

gents: what does "being a man" mean to you?

I'm only sixteen, so here's what I feel what is expected of a teenaged boy.

Apparently, we're only supposed to want to have sex. Sex, sex, and more sex. And I mean, I'm all for having sex, but for whatever reason, I want to be in love with a girl before I have sex with her. (Mind you, I'm still a virgin. And right about now I know "FRESH MEAT" is running through all your Cougar minds, but contain yourselfs until I'm 18.)

I work at a resturant, and every guy over 19 tells me that I need to find some slut and bang her, just to get it over with. And when I tell them that's not what I want to do, I want to wait and actually loose it to a girl that I'm in love with, I'm automatically a queer. :shrug:

Also, I'm expected to not care about anything that surrounds me. I'm not supposed to care about what color my bedroom is, I'm not supposed to be in Leadership, I'm not supposed to care about the future. I'm expected to play a sport, dress like an idiot, and love Greenday and the musical stylings of Chris Brown. God forbid I like Fleetwood Mac and Elton John.

I don't think most people around me know how to interperate my mature, charasmatic personality, so most people just assume I'm gay. It gets obnoxious, but I know that one day I'll be most of these people's employeer. So, I'm looking foward to that.


This got kind of ranty, and I'm a little bit apprehensive about posting it...But here goes nothing. :shrug:

Disclaimer: Carrie interesting topic. It has been a thought provoking read. BUT Good God, how I was going to stay out of this thread as anything I say can and will be used against me. I’m sure.)

Hey Liam, I’m glad you contributed. It is COMPLEETLY what Carrie had intended when she posted the question about gender identities. Not fitting into a box or a specific category perfectly often does tend for small minded people in general to want to label you themselves and then shift you into another category. Like straight to gay. ect. Just because you might not fit THEIR perception of the role that you have. Don't let anyone get you down because you have a high standard set for having a physical relationship. It is always your decision to make, and if you want it to mean something, and not just have it to "get it over with" there is nothing wrong with that cause when its done its done, and there’s never another chance for a first time. I do see what you are saying though, and it's hard. There are socially constructed expectations for guys. A lot of the male labels tend to get applied to the group as a whole because those are seemingly always the types who are the loudest and the most visible. The "nice guys" just tend to kind of blend into the background as just "part of the pac". And I say that because I believe alot of that is still primal, and subconscious. It's the whole peacock syndrome, you know loud and showy in order to mate. I think alot of what you’re experiencing is a direct result of your environment also. Once you leave High school, it does become MUCH MORE apparent that there are all different kinds of people in the world, and the stereotypical roles and labels become less and less defined and important.

ALSO. In all the times that I have ever seen you post, Not once have you come across as anything other than a good guy. There is nothing wrong with having confidence, or a deep sense of self. So hold on to that. That alone will help you to overcome the unnecessary negativity of small minded comments. Just know who you are and if other people can't figure that out, or label you for whatever reason, thats on them not you.:angel:

[Phoenix]

i had a conversation with my grandmother and it really bothered me. My aunt recently left her husband and since then she's a new person. She wears bright clothing, where before she stayed as plain as she could, not to be noticed. She goes out, talks, socializes, and is full of life, where before, something was holding her back. I'm pretty sure the relationship was abusive, and on top of it, he expected the dinner on the table when he got home and her to cook/clean. I was almost jumping out of my seat for joy. Just at how she did it. (I'm not close to her btw...) she was held down for so long and she crawled out of that relationship, a much stronger person. i told my grandmother i enjoyed it because she wasn't being held down. My grandmother explained how some women LIKE to be held down. some women want men to explain to them how they want it done and tell them when to speak, what to wear, how to act. I can only imagine my grandmother was speaking from experience because i think she needs that affirmation from my grandfather. her job is to be his wife. that is all. to socialize, prepare parties...but other than that, she has no identity and it really makes me sad. i dont' think i could ever be like that. There's nothing wrong with it, it's just hard for me to understand...being the way i am.
omg I'm sorry so long :o jesus.

Reason for Editing: I was told that I had taken up alot of space.

This was really interesting, I especially like that difference between you and your grandmother, it helps to show that things really are moving in a more forward thinking motion. Even within the short time of these couple of different generations.
.:nod::thumbsup:

[Miss Vicky]

Phoenix, at the risk of making another "small minded comment," may I suggest that you only quote part of lengthy posts or simply address your comments to the intended person?

It really takes up a lot of space when you quote an entire multi-paragraph post like Michelle's.

[LiamMcConville]

Phoenix, at the risk of making another "small minded comment," may I suggest that you only quote part of lengthy posts or simply address your comments to the intended person?

It really takes up a lot of space when you quote an entire multi-paragraph post like Michelle's.

Oh good God. :rolleyes:

[LiamMcConville]

Disclaimer: Carrie interesting topic. It has been a thought provoking read. BUT Good God, how I was going to stay out of this thread as anything I say can and will be used against me. I’m sure.)

Hey Liam, I’m glad you contributed.

Thank you for your reply Phoenix. And I completely agree with everything you said, especially the High School thing. I'm so completely sick of the bull**** that comes along with being in school, I'm ready to move on.

[Miss Vicky]

Oh good God. :rolleyes:

Is that your charisma shining through now?

It was merely a suggestion.

Edit: Just read your response to Phoenix.

I'm so completely sick of the bull**** that comes along with being in school, I'm ready to move on.

That BS doesn't just disappear when you graduate. Trust me. This is especially true once you enter the workforce and it really makes no difference what profession you choose. Get a group of people together for any length of time and ****-talking is bound to happen.

[Phoenix]

Phoenix, at the risk of making another "small minded comment," may I suggest that you only quote part of lengthy posts or simply address your comments to the intended person?

It really takes up a lot of space when you quote an entire multi-paragraph post like Michelle's.

Suggestion noted. And the "small minded Comment" was in reference to the idiots who told him to "go bang some...ect. to "get it over with".

[Phoenix]

That BS doesn't just disappear when you graduate. Trust me. This is especially true once you enter the workforce and it really makes no difference what profession you choose. Get a group of people together for any length of time and ****-talking is bound to happen.

It is true that it does not disappear, but i have found it much easier to deal with as you do then have more say in who you spend your time with as well as a wider variety of ages and personality types. It is true that there will always be those who are out there to start drama though i agree.

[mikeschmike]

Get a group of people together for any length of time and ****-talking is bound to happen.

My god, I think you've just stumbled upon the perfect description of the ledge!

Also, is it appropriate to hyphenate **** talking? :confused:

(I kid, I kid)

[JazmenFlowers]

^^^
I think I love you.

sorry it's taken me so long to respond. I had to really think about it and then I forgot half of what I wanted to say.

gents: what does "being a man" mean to you?
to me, being a man means nothing more or less than being a woman. it means being human and everything that comes with that. being kind, thoughtful, etc.
as a man/woman, what expectations do you feel are placed on you by society? are they fair? are they unreasonable? do you try to live up to them? why or why not?
this is where it gets tricky and my blood pressure typically rises. society typically wants men to be hard-ass, emotionless rocks. I think that is slowly changing and men are allowed to show their emotions and be compassionate without fear of being a "sissy" or whatever. I was thinking about this a while back as far as professions go. what do most men do? doctor, lawyer, mechanic, teacher, sell insurance, what else? I ask because I'm curious. I think everyone would agree that the labels "society" attempts to place on us are, generally, unfair. it's a lot of pressure to live up to. be a man, play baseball and play it well and all that. it's weird (at least in the deep South). it's like you are a walking contradiction most of the time. I could go on, but you get the picture. for the most part, I don't attempt to live up to them. I do what I want to...there's no beauty and the beast here ( :p )!
what expectations do you place on yourself because of your sex?
none...or as few as possible

[skcin]

^ Yup. Profession-wise, most people still refer to men who are nurses as "a male nurse." Why? Why not just "nurse" or "RN" or whatever? It's stupid.

[Miss Vicky]

Also, is it appropriate to hyphenate **** talking? :confused:

Good question. I'm not sure. :o

Are there any English majors here that can weigh in on the subject? Is the correct choice ****-talking or **** talking?

:shrug:

[carrie721]

Good question. I'm not sure. :o

Are there any English majors here that can weigh in on the subject? Is the correct choice ****-talking or **** talking?

:shrug:

depends on the usage. if you're using it as an adjective, as in "****-talking sonuvabitch," it's hyphenated. if you're using it as a noun, as in "i love me some **** talking," it's not. ;)

[Miss Vicky]

depends on the usage. if you're using it as an adjective, as in "****-talking sonuvabitch," it's hyphenated. if you're using it as a noun, as in "i love me some **** talking," it's not. ;)

I stand corrected. :sorry:

Thank you, Professor Carrie.