Oh Wise and Worldy Ledgies

[paperflowers]

I will be escorting my mother and her two sisters as they visit Ukraine and Poland. This will be thier first visit home since they left after WWII, and they really want to see what has become of the places they knew as children. They would like to visit Crimia, Kyiv (Keiv), and Krakow. I know these are not tourist hot spots but was hoping for some practical tips from fellow ledgies.
I have done a fair amount of research on the internet and am getting conflicting information.
My first question is regarding sort of general travel about Europe.

Are the train schedules available on the internet, reliable?

Are the month Euro rail passes worth the investment, particularly in Poland and Ukraine?

Is train travel going to be so completely confusing because of the language? I have a hard with the 24 hour clock time thing now throw in the Cyrillic alphabet Oy! My mom and her sisters are fluent and can read it but I hate not knowing what the hecks going on. Would it be totally impractical to rent a car?

How about money exchange, I have gotten many conflicting reports on the internet regarding this.

Are Euro's the way to go? Hryvnia? Złoty? Dollars?

Should we use the exchange booths or banks?

Can I really use my Debit card?

It seems that renting a flat is cheaper than a hotel. I am reluctant to book with brokers over the internet, worried about scams. What I should do?

Do younger Poles and Ukrainians speak English?

How do Europeans perceive Americans?

They want to see the "Black Madonna" in Czestochowa. Has anyone ever been there? Is this going to be too touristy? Extremely crowded? The reason I ask is my mom and her sisters are elderly and I am worried about them standing in long lines.


Should we take any extra precautions in Eastern Europe? I read it's extremely bad there one place and then read that violence and crime is vastly exaggerated in others. Here again I am concerned because I will be traveling with three elderly women. Are we gonna get mugged on the subway?

I have read that we should carry out passport or a copy of the first few pages with us at all times in the Ukraine because the police will detain us if we can not id ourselves, true or no?

Will the police shake us down looking for a bribe? I have read conflicting reports.

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.


Thanks in advance.

[danax6]

I don't have much time so I will answer some of your questions later, but...


How do Europeans perceive Americans?
Do you really want me to answer this one? :laugh:

[paperflowers]

I don't have much time so I will answer some of your questions later, but...

Do you really want me to answer this one? :laugh:

Yes please:o

Dont say dumb Cowboys ala Bubba Bush

I might die.

[suzyvermoesen]

I can only tell you some things about travel in Belgium.
The trains are reasonably reliable and time tables can be found on the internet : http://www.b-rail.be/main/E/index.php
In the flemish speaking part of Belgium, most people speak english fairly well so asking for and getting directions should be no problem.You do have to ask though, people will not come up to you to help (like i've noticed americans will do when they spot some tourists that look lost :D )
Most belgian people keep to themselves but that does not mean they do not like you, so do'nt let their attitude fool you !
As for safety : i do'nt know about the places you'll be visiting, but i guess it's the same as all over the world: use your common sense, rely on your instincts, do not stay in places that do not feel right to you,ask local people that you're staying with which areas you should avoid, also avoid deserted streets,do not wear an abundance of jewelry (i usually leave most of it at home), take copies of all your important documents (passport,driver's license,credit card,plane tickets and so on) and give them to your travel companions. That way, if you loose something, one of them will still have a copy. Just generally be carefull.
As for driving a car in Europe : unless you're used to driving in LA or Miami, you're in for a shock i guess. Europeans drive like madmen compared to Americans :sorry:
Anyway, i truly hope you will enjoy Europe and will get to see a lot of it.
Are you planning on seeing more european countries and if so, which ones ?

[danax6]

Here's what I know about Poland (I've been there before, whereas I've never been to Ukraine, so I can't help you with that, aside from some technical stuff). Eastern Europe, and especially Poland, is one of the cheapest areas/countries you can go to. Before Poland joined the European Union, a lot of things like washing machines and computers used to cost about a quarter of what it costs in Western Europe. Many people drove there to get their stuff. The people in Poland still don't make as much as we do, so the men come to this part of Europe and work in construction or in the fields for about half of what we earn, but twice as much as they would earn in Poland. It's gotten to be quite a problem. But that's an aside...

Poland still uses the Zloty, so it's really easier to get some of that. Euros will probably be accepted at various stores or restaurants, but I wouldn't trust the local exchange rates, so exchange some money at the bank. It'll be a few more years before Poland switches to the Euro, seeing they only recently joined. As for Ukraine, they aren't even part of the European Union, so I don't think they accept Euros anywhere. Definitely go with Hryvnia there. Dollars won't be accepted anywhere.

I have to say that most Polish people I have encountered don't really have any grasp of the English language, and I suspect neither do Ukrainians. Not even the Polish people that have been here for a while speak any English, and besides German that's basically the only way for them to communicate with us. They speak better German and French than they do English. The younger generation would probably be the better people to approach. I am pretty sure English is mandatory in school throughout all of Europe now.

Debit cards... as long as yours comes with a Cirrus or Meastro logo, it will be accepted at any ATM machine in Europe. Poland and Ukraine are not big on credit cards, so you won't find many places where they accept that.

As far how Americans are perceived... that's a tough question. Overall, America is not that popular with the Europeans, for a lot of obvious reasons, but Eastern Europe is very different from Western Europe, and I can't really say what their overall opinion is. But generally, we are nice people! Just don't go to France. :laugh:

I do think crime is vastly exaggerated, but there is still a difference between there and here. In general it's the poorer part of Europe, and like with all areas where poverty is a problem, so is crime. It's inevitable, but I guess the same goes for any big city you visit, just don't wander into too many remote areas. If you stick to the touristy areas, you'll be fine.

[mylittledemon]

Are the train schedules available on the internet, reliable?

How about money exchange, I have gotten many conflicting reports on the internet regarding this.

Can I really use my Debit card?

How do Europeans perceive Americans?

Should we take any extra precautions in Eastern Europe?

I have read that we should carry out passport or a copy of the first few pages with us at all times in the Ukraine because the police will detain us if we can not id ourselves, true or no?
.

No.

Check the rates every day. They vary.

You should be able to.

Europeans will probably ask if youre Canadian first. If they do, say no, I'm American...and the only good thing about Canada is that they are next to us!

Always be careful in other countries. You dont want to get in trouble with the law. And just be aware of your surroundings. Dont look like a wandering tourist. Get some European clothes too.

Always keep a copy of your passport handy. A colour one at that. Keep 2 in fact.

[danax6]

Get some European clothes too.
Excuse me? Exactly what do you consider 'European clothes'?

[carrie721]

Excuse me? Exactly what do you consider 'European clothes'?

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

you mean styles have changed since the sound of music?

:lol::lol::lol:

also, i really hope you don't actually say that bit about canada.

[danax6]

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

you mean styles have changed since the sound of music?No, I still wear dresses made of drapes. :shrug:

:lol::lol::lol:

also, i really hope you don't actually say that bit about canada.Funny thing is that there are quite a few people that think Canada is part of the US. :lol:

[suzyvermoesen]

Excuse me? Exactly what do you consider 'European clothes'?

I so wanna hear the reply to that :confused:
Or do you mean "matching colours and prints" :laugh:

[carrie721]

No, I still wear dresses made of drapes. :shrug:

:laugh:

Funny thing is that there are quite a few people that think Canada is part of the US. :lol:

ah yes, states 51-64. :laugh:

[danax6]

ah yes, states 51-64. :laugh:Well, most consider it one state, and the most popular answer when asked what the capital is: Montreal. :laugh:

These same people also think Alaska is on the North Pole.

[carrie721]

Well, most consider it one state, and the most popular answer when asked what the capital is: Montreal. :laugh:

LOL.

These same people also think Alaska is on the North Pole.

to be fair, i think most americans do, too :laugh:

[danax6]

LOL.
I guess it could be worse, I've heard people say Niagara Falls also. :lol:

[mylittledemon]

Excuse me? Exactly what do you consider 'European clothes'?

IN other words, clothing brands that you get in other countries. When I was in NZ and Oz...they can spot you a mile away by your clothing brands.

[carrie721]

I guess it could be worse, I've heard people say Niagara Falls also. :lol:

hahahahahahahaha that one's my favorite! :laugh:

[mylittledemon]

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

you mean styles have changed since the sound of music?

:lol::lol::lol:

also, i really hope you don't actually say that bit about canada.

I've said that bit about Canada MANY times. I have 3 really close born and bred Canadian friends who think its hilarious.

[danax6]

I've said that bit about Canada MANY times. I have 3 really close born and bred Canadian friends who think its hilarious.It's not so much the Canada jokes that is off-putting, it's the arrogance associated with these kind of 'statements' that doesn't really put the Americans in a more favorable light. :shrug:

[Stew_Matthews]

…………..I’ll drop you a more detailed reply by pm later this week on the Ukraine. I’ve worked in parts of the former Soviet Union over the last 5 years and am familiar with Kiev.

On the language issue, I did notice last year that there has been a shift towards all the signs/notices being written in the Ukranian dialect/language rather than standard Russian. So if your relatives are fluent in the dialect, you’ll be fine. In Kiev all the public transport has English timetables and trains/buses run on time . I’ve hired a car and driven in and around Kiev. I wouldn’t recommend doing that in Siberia but you’ll be fine in Kiev. I have always stayed near the old town which is better to be honest if you want to see the highlights of the city. It is pretty nice – not remotely like Moscow. I have stayed at the Hyatt but can recommend a number of hotels/restaurants and will send details later on.

The local restaurants don’t accept visa/amex etc but there are several banks that you can draw money from. Only use the hotel or banks for changing money. Bank notes go out of circulation quickly so you need to guarantee that you have current notes.

I’d be surprised if you were stopped by the Police. I have been stopped and arrested four or five times in China for not having all my papers but never in the old Soviet block.

Oh and tipping. Russia/Ukraine/China doesn’t do tipping. It is assumed that good service is part of the deal when you eat/drink somewhere. Westerners do it but the locals just think it’s weird………….

[David]

How do Europeans perceive Americans? They think we have six-shooters & gunbelts & we shoot-'em-up every chance we get.

Will you be visiting the Czech Republic? Be sure to walk the Charles Bridge in Prague.

http://www.andel3w.dk/prague/gif/charlesbridge.jpg

Beethoven visited Prague twice: in 1796 & in 1798. On his 1st visit, he stayed at 285 Lazenska Street.

http://www.lvbeethoven.com/Lieux/RepTcheque/Prague00.jpg

He preferred not to stay in the center of the city but on the other side of Charles Bridge, in a neighborhood known as the Mala Strana. Today his residence is in No. 11 on Lazenska Street, & it is known as Beethoven Palace.

http://www.lvbeethoven.com/Lieux/RepTcheque/PragueLazenska02.jpg

[Betsy]

^^^

WOW David, that bridge photo is breath taking!

I was a foregin exchange student to Germany back in the 70's....and the teenagers made me change my style of clothing, "because Americans draw too much attention by their loud clothes." So, in short, times haven't changed...

As for recommendations and advice, I can't add anything, but to say that this thread has been interesting to read.

(Nowadays, I never get to travel, unless it's watching the AMAZING RACE in slow motion...)

[mylittledemon]

It's not so much the Canada jokes that is off-putting, it's the arrogance associated with these kind of 'statements' that doesn't really put the Americans in a more favorable light. :shrug:

Its not an arrogant thing. I know I've been labeled that on these boards. If any of you had met me in person you know I'm a complete jokester. I dont say that and mean it. Its all about taking the piss. LIGHTEN UP.

[mikeschmike]

Its not an arrogant thing. I know I've been labeled that on these boards. If any of you had met me in person you know I'm a complete jokester. I dont say that and mean it. Its all about taking the piss. LIGHTEN UP.

It's just funny because I think I would admit to being Canadian waaaaaaayyyyyyy before I would let on that I'm American. Hate to say it, but America kinda sucks. And by kinda, I mean completely.

[mylittledemon]

It's just funny because I think I would admit to being Canadian waaaaaaayyyyyyy before I would let on that I'm American. Hate to say it, but America kinda sucks. And by kinda, I mean completely.

Well I got ribbed a lot in New Zealand, and Australia for it. But its all in good fun. If youre a good chap, they dont care where you are from. That being said, I was always asked if I was Canadian first, then "Oh American?" Just about everyone I asked WHY they asked Canadian first, they replied, "We didnt wanna offend the Canadians" followed by a hearty laugh. All the Canadians I met in my travels were awesome folk, and i made some lifelong friends from several other nations as well.

[LiamMcConville]

It's just funny because I think I would admit to being Canadian waaaaaaayyyyyyy before I would let on that I'm American. Hate to say it, but America kinda sucks. And by kinda, I mean completely.

Hell yes it does. I want to get the hell out of here ASAP. Bush has given us a bad name for years to come, it would take a magician of a president to fix what that retard has done. Ugh.

[mylittledemon]

Hell yes it does. I want to get the hell out of here ASAP. Bush has given us a bad name for years to come, it would take a magician of a president to fix what that retard has done. Ugh.

I'm not saying you have to be a GWB backer, but what bothers me is the ungratefulness of people here. And the shame. You shouldnt be ashamed of where you are from, your heritage, or your country. For all intents and purposes, we live in the greatest nation in the world. We have everything. I mean, we are spoiled. Traveling abroad will teach you that.

And personally, regarding the presidential comment. I hope everyone marks the words of this conservy...I dont believe Bush is gonna leave office in disgrace.

[mikeschmike]

I'm not saying you have to be a GWB backer, but what bothers me is the ungratefulness of people here. And the shame. You shouldnt be ashamed of where you are from, your heritage, or your country. For all intents and purposes, we live in the greatest nation in the world. We have everything. I mean, we are spoiled. Traveling abroad will teach you that.

And personally, regarding the presidential comment. I hope everyone marks the words of this conservy...I dont believe Bush is gonna leave office in disgrace.

If by spoiled and ungrateful you mean being denied basic human rights, then I guess you're right.

Like I said...I live close enough to the border to justifty calling myself Canadian. I just have to get the moves down to pass myself off as a Canuck. You know, like moving the entire top half of my head when I talk.

[carrie721]

If by spoiled and ungrateful you mean being denied basic human rights, then I guess you're right.

Like I said...I live close enough to the border to justifty calling myself Canadian. I just have to get the moves down to pass myself off as a Canuck. You know, like moving the entire top half of my head when I talk.

you already almost talk like them :D and you are the "coolest minnesoah'n i knoah" :D

[carrie721]

I'm not saying you have to be a GWB backer, but what bothers me is the ungratefulness of people here. And the shame. You shouldnt be ashamed of where you are from, your heritage, or your country.

no, we shouldn't. but a lot of people do, with good reason ...

For all intents and purposes, we live in the greatest nation in the world.

i think there are a couple billion people who would disagree with you there

We have everything. I mean, we are spoiled. Traveling abroad will teach you that.

as mikey said ... aside from basic human rights, you're 100% correct!

And personally, regarding the presidential comment. I hope everyone marks the words of this conservy...I dont believe Bush is gonna leave office in disgrace.

i don't know what "conservy" means and i can't even guess at what you meant to say. but i think you are dead wrong about that last statement. he's a disgrace now and in 100 years, if we haven't all died in a nuclear holocaust, he will still be a disgrace.

[David]

I'm not saying you have to be a GWB backer, but what bothers me is the ungratefulness of people here. And the shame. You shouldnt be ashamed of where you are from, your heritage, or your country. For all intents and purposes, we live in the greatest nation in the world. We have everything. I mean, we are spoiled. Traveling abroad will teach you that.I like it here (the U.S.). My choices are numerous: I can do generally what I want to make a living (as long as it's legal), I can live where I want (generally), I can buy thousands of things like boxes of Kleenex with amazing designs on them & shoes with thick soles for jogging, & I quite like the idea that I am the owner of my own life, an idea which undergirds the classical liberalism of James Madison, Adam Smith, & Arthur Schlesinger Jr.

And personally, regarding the presidential comment. I hope everyone marks the words of this conservy...I dont believe Bush is gonna leave office in disgrace.What's he going to do? slip away in the dead of night?
He's a dummkopf.

[mikeschmike]

you already almost talk like them :D and you are the "coolest minnesoah'n i knoah" :D

That means a lot coming from you, election ruiner. :mad:

[carrie721]

That means a lot coming from you, election ruiner. :mad:

don't be jealiz of the power i hold.

[danax6]

we live in the greatest nation in the world.Blech.

Yes, I guess health care for everyone and a college education for everyone, to name a few things, really makes this a less great country.

[mikeschmike]

don't be jealiz of the power i hold.

i will be, simply because you told me not to.

[Sarah]

Blech.

Yes, I guess health care for everyone and a college education for everyone, to name a few things, really makes this a less great country.

but do you have cheetos, mountain dew, and american idol?

those are the makings of the real american dream.

[carrie721]

i will be, simply because you told me not to.

better be nice to me or i'll send you icky videos :mad:

[danax6]

but do you have cheetos, mountain dew, and american idol?

those are the makings of the real american dream.Yes on cheetos and Idols (as it's called here), but no on mountain dew. :distress:

We have this though!

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g161/danax6/Fotos-0016.jpg

That's what I am having for dinner right now. :laugh:

[carrie721]

^well as long as they're "good" ...

just don't try to feed me mediocre noodles :distress:

[Sarah]

cup o noodles?

https://calcatering.housing.berkeley.edu/calclub/gui/prod_photos/126.jpg

[danax6]

^well as long as they're "good" ...

just don't try to feed me mediocre noodles :distress:Hey, we're only a mediocre nation. :shrug:

[mikeschmike]

better be nice to me or i'll send you icky videos :mad:

How the hell do I respond to this? Well played, Madam.

[carrie721]

cup o noodles?

https://calcatering.housing.berkeley.edu/calclub/gui/prod_photos/126.jpg

psht. i will no longer eat anything that isn't designated "good" on the label.

[Sarah]

i don't think i've ever had the cup noodles. they're too expensive. i only like the 19 cent ramen packs.

[carrie721]

How the hell do I respond to this? Well played, Madam.

i will now retire to my underground lair, cackle to myself, and continue my plotting. :cool:

[carrie721]

Hey, we're only a mediocre nation. :shrug:

don't worry. we'll teach you.

[mylittledemon]

If by spoiled and ungrateful you mean being denied basic human rights, then I guess you're right.

Like I said...I live close enough to the border to justifty calling myself Canadian. I just have to get the moves down to pass myself off as a Canuck. You know, like moving the entire top half of my head when I talk.

We're denied basic human rights? What do you mean? Like water, food, and shelter? That's bizarre. I wasnt aware of Americans being denied that.

I've met more than a handful of people from Malaysia, China, Ireland, Finland, Britain, Australia, New Zealand and Canada. Everyone I met on my travels agreed the US was the greatest nation in the world. And I'm not saying that like...look at us and our big balls...I mean in terms of wealth, economic status, etc. And anyone I met along the way that had been to the US said they enjoyed it here.

There's a lot of self-deprecation from fellow Americans on here.

[danax6]

i don't think i've ever had the cup noodles. they're too expensive. i only like the 19 cent ramen packs.Yeah, it's a testament to how lazy I am. I don't even want to measure the appropriate amount of water or reach into the cupboard to grab a bowl. Please.

[carrie721]

We're denied basic human rights? What do you mean? Like water, food, and shelter? That's bizarre. I wasnt aware of Americans being denied that.

hurricane katrina ring a bell?

also, there's the fact that there are no partner rights for homos ... and our hate crime laws don't cover hate crimes against homos. etc.

edit: it's not self-deprecation. i'm not putting myself down because i'm an american. in fact, i hate hearing anti-american jokes ... but i get that the anti-american sentiment is rooted in reality because of our ignorance in arrogance. rather than self-deprecation, it's a frustration with this administration that has failed us and and with an insular society.

[danax6]

And anyone I met along the way that had been to the US said they enjoyed it here. I've had many good times in the US as well, but that's really irrelevant to what we've been talking about here.

There's a lot of self-deprecation from fellow Americans on here.It's called realism.

[skcin]

Well, everyone & their brother knows I've been to Bulgaria, I've talked about it enough. :o I know it's not Poland or Ukraine, but I would bet it's close. My impressions:

Most younger people speak at least some English, it's offered (if not mandated) in most schools as the second language. Also, people at touristy places usually do too - but be aware that once they find out you're American, you might be charged more. Th perception of many is that every American is rich.

Go to actual banks for money exchange, no small time shady operations. You'll def. need cash for the small businesses or craft market type places. Not sure about debit & such, we didn't use it.

Crime was no worse than here, IMO. There are actual gypsies (I thought my dad made that up) and they tend to be perceived as thieves & scam artists. The one crime I witnessed was a gypsy man tearing off some lady's necklace while she was walking down the street. The neighbors caught him & got it back.

Clothing & style? I was pretty surprised that there was little difference. I don't know what I expected, but people my age dressed the way I dressed. :shrug:

The thing that struck me most was the way two worlds coexist so seamlessly. For example, many of my family members lived in apartments, but some lived in farm houses with no indoor plumbing. Most people drive cars or take the bus, but it's not uncommon to see people riding in carts pulled by donkeys. You'll hear native folk music one minute, American R&R the next, then European techno. Most everyone had TVs, stereos, DVD players, digital cameras, etc. You can buy boxedconvenience food (like cereal) but most people buy their bread baked fresh every morning or get eggs delivered by the local farmer. Fast food places are pretty much everywhere, but they're more of a novelty or a treat. I still get a kick out of the McD's sign written in the Russian alphabet. :)

Oh, you may want to get a Hepatitis A shot before you go. It's spread through contaminated food & water, or if someone prepares your food without washing their hands first. It's recommended by the CDC to get one before travel to many area of the world, including Eastern Europe (although I didn't know that when I went, so I didn't get one, and I'm fine.) Just thought I'd throw that out there.

[Sarah]

hurricane katrina ring a bell?

In all fairness, though, thousands of individuals completely ignored evacuation orders. Also - and I am someone who loves NOLA and I consider Louisiana my second home - the situation there has been effed up for a long time. FEMA should have been more prepared, but it taught a valuable lesson. We are not prepared for any type of disaster, be it weather, terrorism, or military assault. Our resources are simply spread too thin.

also, there's the fact that there are no partner rights for homos ... and our hate crime laws don't cover hate crimes against homos. etc.

It's disgusting really. And my opinion has little to do with my orientation.

Honestly, there needs to be a universal system for everyone. Define a benefactor.

[mylittledemon]

hurricane katrina ring a bell?

also, there's the fact that there are no partner rights for homos ... and our hate crime laws don't cover hate crimes against homos. etc.

edit: it's not self-deprecation. i'm not putting myself down because i'm an american. in fact, i hate hearing anti-american jokes ... but i get that the anti-american sentiment is rooted in reality because of our ignorance in arrogance. rather than self-deprecation, it's a frustration with this administration that has failed us and and with an insular society.

Yeah my first cousin Tony lived thru Katrina. He said he had 7 ft of water in his house. He also still lives in New Orleans. He told me once that the situation was so bad, there was no preparation for it. He to this day still feels the local government was at fault. I mean, his is just one voice out of many.

No partner rights for homos? Cant you get tax breaks and what not? I believe 9 or so states recognize civil unions at this point. Hate crimes are slowly being changed from what I've heard. And what makes hate crime laws for "homos" more important than hate crimes against blacks in particular? Or hate crimes against Jews? I dont believe there is any need to have separate hate crime laws that focus on sexual orientation. A hate crime is a hate crime, regardless of whether its for reasons of gender, sex, or race.

What do you mean by insular society? Like Puerto Rico?

[Sarah]

No partner rights for homos? Cant you get tax breaks and what not? I believe 9 or so states recognize civil unions at this point. Hate crimes are slowly being changed from what I've heard. And what makes hate crime laws for "homos" more important than hate crimes against blacks in particular? Or hate crimes against Jews?

Please. It's only getting worse. And civil unions are a joke. Separate but equal mentality much? I'm not saying that to you.. but to ****wit presidential candidates who are "against gay marriage" but "in favor of civil unions".

IMO, all marriage should be scrapped. Go get your damn piece of paper and make it that. This church BS is for the birds. Separation of church and state plz.

The difference is that hate crimes against blacks or Jews are aggressively prosecuted, while hate crimes against homosexuals often times are not prosecuted as anything more than regular assault or aggravated assault.

[carrie721]

No partner rights for homos? Cant you get tax breaks and what not? I believe 9 or so states recognize civil unions at this point.

god. no. first of all. even if 9 states did recognize civil unions as being equal to heterosexual marriages, that's still less than 20% of the country. secondly, as sarah said, they're a ****ing joke.

Hate crimes are slowly being changed from what I've heard. And what makes hate crime laws for "homos" more important than hate crimes against blacks in particular? Or hate crimes against Jews? I dont believe there is any need to have separate hate crime laws that focus on sexual orientation. A hate crime is a hate crime, regardless of whether its for reasons of gender, sex, or race.

cheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerist. that is exactly my point. a hate crime against a homo is not considered a hate crime under current laws. you illustrated my point perfectly but missed the boat - they are exactly the same thing, but not according to the law.

What do you mean by insular society? Like Puerto Rico?

lol what? :laugh: no, i am not talking about puerto rico. i'm talking about a society that doesn't look outside itself.

[carrie721]

IMO, all marriage should be scrapped. Go get your damn piece of paper and make it that. This church BS is for the birds. Separation of church and state plz.

right. if a couple wants to go to a church and have their union ~ordained by god~ that is one thing. but that shouldn't be recognized as a legal union.

[mikeschmike]

No partner rights for homos? Cant you get tax breaks and what not?

No and no.

I believe 9 or so states recognize civil unions at this point.

9 out of 50 is pretty bad when you consider that entire countries are repealing their "homos are bad, mmkay?" laws.

Hate crimes are slowly being changed from what I've heard.

The key word there is slowly.

And what makes hate crime laws for "homos" more important than hate crimes against blacks in particular? Or hate crimes against Jews?

No one ever said that hate crimes committed against gays were more important, and I would never state that they should be. What I'm saying is that hate crimes against gays are OF NO LESS importance then what you listed above. A crime based on hatred should not be distinguished by the type of hatred. The issue is that since orientation really isn't part of the hate crime verbiage, slimy defense lawyers could get a lesser sentence for their client that killed a gay man, as opposed to if they had killed a black man.

I dont believe there is any need to have separate hate crime laws that focus on sexual orientation. A hate crime is a hate crime, regardless of whether its for reasons of gender, sex, or race.

See above.

ETA: The ladies have made my point, only in a much more eloquent way. I hope between the three of us you can see our logic.

[mylittledemon]

IMO, all marriage should be scrapped. Go get your damn piece of paper and make it that. This church BS is for the birds. Separation of church and state plz.


Well then we should just have civil unions for everyone and marriage for no one.

[mylittledemon]

right. if a couple wants to go to a church and have their union ~ordained by god~ that is one thing. but that shouldn't be recognized as a legal union.

Why should it not be recognized by a legal union? If the officiant is a minister or no, they are still recognized by the state as someone who can legally marry.

[mylittledemon]

lol what? :laugh: no, i am not talking about puerto rico. i'm talking about a society that doesn't look outside itself.

Well you said insular society. I was thinking you meant the US and its "insular" territories. Like Puerto Rico.

[carrie721]

Why should it not be recognized by a legal union? If the officiant is a minister or no, they are still recognized by the state as someone who can legally marry.

it's a religious ceremony. it should not be recognized by the government.

[Sarah]

it's a religious ceremony. it should not be recognized by the government.

+1

Just because you "marry" your girlfriend in a church shouldn't make your relationship more important - in ANY way - than Carrie becoming "united" with her girlfriend at the courthouse.

That's not to say that someone shouldn't be allowed to have their ceremony in a church. But it's pigheaded for the church wedding people to act like their lives are the only ones that matter.

If you aren't gay and you don't want to get married to someone of the same sex, you have NO RIGHT to say that someone else shouldn't. Just don't do it! Woo! Freedom of religion is also freedom to not have a religion, and this "abomination in the eyes of God" doesn't mean **** to a lot of people, so it should have NO EFFECT, because the non-believers are still bound to all the same laws. Plus, what's up with discriminating against people because of who they LOVE anyway? Some argue that it will ruin our society. I say they are ruining our society.

[mylittledemon]

it's a religious ceremony. it should not be recognized by the government.

Officiants generally are public servants. It doesnt matter the type of ceremony. Officiants dont have to be minsters. Just because they marry someone in a church doesnt mean the union isnt legal...it could be in a backyard, in a bathroom, a courthouse, or a bordello. The private location of the wedding itself doesnt matter. Would you deny all those who marry the location of their choice? I doubt it. And I dont think I'd even be so bold in my Ledge-labeled effrontery.

[Sarah]

Would you deny all those who marry the location of their choice? I doubt it.

Would you deny some of those the ability to marry the person of their choosing? Apparently.

[mylittledemon]

Would you deny some of those the ability to marry the person of their choosing? Apparently.

I never, ever, said that.

[Sarah]

I never, ever, said that.

No no. It's not "you" as in "YOU, mylittledemon". It's "you" as in "everyone in society". I should have clarified that better.

[bretonbanquet]

For all intents and purposes, we live in the greatest nation in the world. We have everything. I mean, we are spoiled. Traveling abroad will teach you that.


I don't think you do. You don't have everything, no country does. Spoiled, yeah - all westerners are spoiled compared to Africans, Indians etc.. there are really crappy places in the world to live. But I doubt the US is really any better than most other western countries. Just different. If travelling abroad taught you that, you haven't been to the right countries.

I've met more than a handful of people from Malaysia, China, Ireland, Finland, Britain, Australia, New Zealand and Canada. Everyone I met on my travels agreed the US was the greatest nation in the world. And I'm not saying that like...look at us and our big balls...I mean in terms of wealth, economic status, etc. And anyone I met along the way that had been to the US said they enjoyed it here.


I've been to a lot of places, and I couldn't agree less. I've never met anyone who thought the US was the greatest nation in the world, including Americans. More to the point, I've never met anyone who even had an opinion on such a trite notion as "the best country in the world". Wealth, economic status? What do you mean? Individual citizens or nations as a whole? And why does that make anywhere a great place to live? But yes, for sure, everyone I've met said they enjoyed the US, but not necessarily more so than everywhere else. There are a lot of great things about the US, but there are a lot of great things about most countries. That's why people travel :)

As for the Ukraine, I've never been there, but I've been to Hungary and Slovakia, which border it. I can agree with everything people have said here. It can be damn cold, btw :laugh: Some areas, especially in cities, look pretty grey and miserable at certain times of the year, and it is poor. It doesn't matter what you wear, but it may be best not to wear anything too expensive. Just look ordinary. People there won't be bothered about brands and stuff. The police shouldn't bother you, but carrying some form of ID, like a copy of your passport - that's a good idea. The people should be friendly and helpful, but of course there are always bad apples. Just like anywhere else.

I wouldn't necessarily recommend driving there, unless you're a pretty confident driver. I've driven in Slovakia and the standard of driving there was pretty low.. apart from the fact that you won't readily understand the road signs. But buses and trains will be very good, especially in the cities, and very cheap. In fact, everything will be cheap :laugh: Eastern Europe is a fine place to travel in, you'll enjoy it, no question :)

[mylittledemon]

No no. It's not "you" as in "YOU, mylittledemon". It's "you" as in "everyone in society". I should have clarified that better.

Gotcha. But what does that have to do with people marrying in a church or any other place? An officiant doesnt have to be a minister, or a Christian for that matter. My friend Dan got married in a church in Atlanta and the officiant was a friend of his who wasnt even in ministry. But the guy can still marry people.

[DrummerDeanna]

See how much better things are getting?? :rolleyes:

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_6989447

DENVER—A same-sex couple who refused to leave the Denver clerk and recorder's office Monday after they were denied a marriage license were cited with trespassing.
Kate Burns and Sheila Schroeder of Englewood had said before the sit-in that they expected to be denied. They refused to leave the clerk and recorder's office, though it was closing.

The couple contended they should be entitled to all the federal benefits of a heterosexual married couple.

Colorado voters in November passed a ballot proposal banning gay marriage. They also rejected a proposal to give same-sex couples some of the same legal benefits as married spouses.

[carrie721]

Officiants generally are public servants. It doesnt matter the type of ceremony. Officiants dont have to be minsters. Just because they marry someone in a church doesnt mean the union isnt legal...it could be in a backyard, in a bathroom, a courthouse, or a bordello. The private location of the wedding itself doesnt matter. Would you deny all those who marry the location of their choice? I doubt it. And I dont think I'd even be so bold in my Ledge-labeled effrontery.

i'm not saying that people can't hold a ceremony wherever they want. i'm saying that that private ceremony should not be legally binding - going to the courthouse and getting the piece of paper that denotes your benefactor is the only thing that should be legally binding.

[Sarah]

i'm not saying that people can't hold a ceremony wherever they want. i'm saying that that private ceremony should not be legally binding - going to the courthouse and getting the piece of paper that denotes your benefactor is the only thing that should be legally binding.

Yes, that's the point, exactly.

But its the people who want to have their big church marriage that are saying it's wrong for same-sex marriage to be legal. Their argument is because it's "wrong" ... I assume they mean in the "eyes of God".

[mylittledemon]

I don't think you do. You don't have everything, no country does. Spoiled, yeah - all westerners are spoiled compared to Africans, Indians etc.. there are really crappy places in the world to live. But I doubt the US is really any better than most other western countries. Just different. If travelling abroad taught you that, you haven't been to the right countries.

I've been to a lot of places, and I couldn't agree less. I've never met anyone who thought the US was the greatest nation in the world, including Americans. More to the point, I've never met anyone who even had an opinion on such a trite notion as "the best country in the world". Wealth, economic status? What do you mean? Individual citizens or nations as a whole? And why does that make anywhere a great place to live? But yes, for sure, everyone I've met said they enjoyed the US, but not necessarily more so than everywhere else. There are a lot of great things about the US, but there are a lot of great things about most countries. That's why people travel :)
)

Well I've been to the UK and met a great bunch of Irishfolk and Brits alike. My friend Chris, who's from Manchester is the first to tell you America is #1, followed by the UK. He lived here in the US for 2 years.

And again, we dont have everything..let me clarify. We have more than the majority of the rest of the world. We're spoiled and we dont know it. Thats generally it.

I didnt say traveling abroad taught me that the US was the best. Dont confuse what I'm saying. It taught me that we're spoiled...that we have everything compared to other places and that we are ungrateful.

WHether you agree with the US being the greatest country in the world or not, its still true. You may like other places better. I liked New Zealand better than the US. Pity I couldnt stay there. But, the whole "greatest country on earth" thing was kinda tongue in cheek too. All my UK friends would request I say that, then nearly spit their pints out.

[carrie721]

See how much better things are getting?? :rolleyes:

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_6989447

DENVER—A same-sex couple who refused to leave the Denver clerk and recorder's office Monday after they were denied a marriage license were cited with trespassing.
Kate Burns and Sheila Schroeder of Englewood had said before the sit-in that they expected to be denied. They refused to leave the clerk and recorder's office, though it was closing.

The couple contended they should be entitled to all the federal benefits of a heterosexual married couple.

Colorado voters in November passed a ballot proposal banning gay marriage. They also rejected a proposal to give same-sex couples some of the same legal benefits as married spouses.

lord. ohio passed a similar proposal a couple years ago :rolleyes:

it's so depressing.

[Sarah]

All my UK friends would request I say that, then nearly spit their pints out.

:distress: is waste of beer :distress:

[mylittledemon]

i'm not saying that people can't hold a ceremony wherever they want. i'm saying that that private ceremony should not be legally binding - going to the courthouse and getting the piece of paper that denotes your benefactor is the only thing that should be legally binding.

That will never happen. In the very LEAST, it wont happen because we cant be bothered to go stand in line at the courthouse for hours only to be told to go to the back of the line again because you forgot to fill a certain form out. Havent you been to a courthouse lately? HAHA! Really...that was grand.

[mikeschmike]

That will never happen. In the very LEAST, it wont happen because we cant be bothered to go stand in line at the courthouse for hours only to be told to go to the back of the line again because you forgot to fill a certain form out. Havent you been to a courthouse lately? HAHA! Really...that was grand.

Better then being told to get the hell out of there because you were a disgrace to the word of god. Just sayin...

[carrie721]

That will never happen. In the very LEAST, it wont happen because we cant be bothered to go stand in line at the courthouse for hours only to be told to go to the back of the line again because you forgot to fill a certain form out. Havent you been to a courthouse lately? HAHA! Really...that was grand.

lol wait, so you're saying that you wouldn't support a system like this because of laziness? "you can't be bothered" to participate in a fair system? what a great attitude.

and no, i don't have cause to spend a lot of time at courthouses. why do you?

[mylittledemon]

:distress: is waste of beer :distress:

My friend Lisa, from Brighton (or Brixton?), bought me an American flag to drape myself in at a rugby game in Wellington NZ. I had never owned an American flag before, even after 9-11...but i wasnt ashamed to wear it like a Superman cape!

I love the Brits! Great folk. Besides, they gave us League of Gentlemen.

[Sarah]

you have to go get a marriage license anyway. why, instead of it being a license, can it just not be the legally binding document? then, you can go have your ceremony wherever you want, however you want, with or without a justice of the peace officiating. :shrug:

[mylittledemon]

lol wait, so you're saying that you wouldn't support a system like this because of laziness? "you can't be bothered" to participate in a fair system? what a great attitude.

and no, i don't have cause to spend a lot of time at courthouses. why do you?

No I dont support it because officiants are given power by the law to perform marriages. If you chose not to get married in a church, you could still get married some place else. March yourself down to the courthouse if you want. The last time I was there was in regards to getting my birth certificate re-issued. To quote Jerry Seinfeld...it was like a leper colony down there. I wouldnt wish that on anyone.

I also wouldnt deny anyone the chance to get married in a church if they want, or outside at a nice country club...or on the banks of a river...or in their backyard. Who am I to do that? And I dont think the majority of this country would support that either. I think you're in the minority on that one.

[carrie721]

No I dont support it because officiants are given power by the law to perform marriages. If you chose not to get married in a church, you could still get married some place else. March yourself down to the courthouse if you want. The last time I was there was in regards to getting my birth certificate re-issued. To quote Jerry Seinfeld...it was like a leper colony down there. I wouldnt wish that on anyone.

I also wouldnt deny anyone the chance to get married in a church if they want, or outside at a nice country club...or on the banks of a river...or in their backyard. Who am I to do that? And I dont think the majority of this country would support that either. I think you're in the minority on that one.

you're not listening to what i'm saying. people can hold those ceremonies all they want, i don't want to stop them. but the official legal documents need to be taken care of at a courthouse, by a lawyer, whatever. by someone not connected to a religious organization.

[Sarah]

No I dont support it because officiants are given power by the law to perform marriages. If you chose not to get married in a church, you could still get married some place else. March yourself down to the courthouse if you want. The last time I was there was in regards to getting my birth certificate re-issued. To quote Jerry Seinfeld...it was like a leper colony down there. I wouldnt wish that on anyone.

O_O we can't march down to the courthouse if its illegal.


I also wouldnt deny anyone the chance to get married in a church if they want, or outside at a nice country club...or on the banks of a river...or in their backyard. Who am I to do that? And I dont think the majority of this country would support that either. I think you're in the minority on that one.

That's kind of what I was saying in a way. It's not about where. It's about not giving people the piece of paper that matters.

[bretonbanquet]

Well I've been to the UK and met a great bunch of Irishfolk and Brits alike. My friend Chris, who's from Manchester is the first to tell you America is #1, followed by the UK. He lived here in the US for 2 years.

WHether you agree with the US being the greatest country in the world or not, its still true. You may like other places better. I liked New Zealand better than the US. Pity I couldnt stay there. But, the whole "greatest country on earth" thing was kinda tongue in cheek too. All my UK friends would request I say that, then nearly spit their pints out.

I know Manchester pretty well, and I'd say Cambodia was a better place to live. He's no judge! I'm kidding btw :nod:

And well.. it's not true! It's your opinion. There's a big difference. And we are prone to spitting beer mainly when assailed with the notion that Britain may not be the finest nation on Earth. God was British, fyi :D

Seriously, there is a lot wrong with Britain. A lot. But hey.. it's home.

[carrie721]

O_O we can't march down to the courthouse if its illegal.

:laugh: well, we can march down there ... as long as exercise is all we want to get out of it :laugh:

That's kind of what I was saying in a way. It's not about where. It's about not giving people the piece of paper that matters.

exactly. i'm not arguing against that.

[mylittledemon]

you're not listening to what i'm saying. people can hold those ceremonies all they want, i don't want to stop them. but the official legal documents need to be taken care of at a courthouse, by a lawyer, whatever. by someone not connected to a religious organization.

Yeah I am listening. Religious organization? Ummm...Some officiants are ministers. Some are not. Some arent even religious/and or Christians at all. WHERE they take care of the documents is irrelevant. Officiants still hold the same authority in a courthouse, a church, or a grocery store. Again, I'd say the majority of the nation would disagree with your stance on that.

[carrie721]

But, the whole "greatest country on earth" thing was kinda tongue in cheek too.

it wasn't tongue-in-cheek when you were defending that statement earlier :shrug:

[carrie721]

Yeah I am listening. Religious organization? Ummm...Some officiants are ministers. Some are not. Some arent even religious/and or Christians at all. WHERE they take care of the documents is irrelevant. Officiants still hold the same authority in a courthouse, a church, or a grocery store. Again, I'd say the majority of the nation would disagree with your stance on that.

that doesn't mean it's not fair or right. if the officiant is a religious figure, that is in direct violation of separation of church and state. therefore, any ceremony they perform should not be considered legally binding.

[Sarah]

Yeah I am listening. Religious organization? Ummm...Some officiants are ministers. Some are not. Some arent even religious/and or Christians at all. WHERE they take care of the documents is irrelevant. Officiants still hold the same authority in a courthouse, a church, or a grocery store. Again, I'd say the majority of the nation would disagree with your stance on that.

You're picking at a technicality and missing the bigger point.

[mylittledemon]

I know Manchester pretty well, and I'd say Cambodia was a better place to live. He's no judge! I'm kidding btw :nod:

And well.. it's not true! It's your opinion. There's a big difference. And we are prone to spitting beer mainly when assailed with the notion that Britain may not be the finest nation on Earth. God was British, fyi :D

Seriously, there is a lot wrong with Britain. A lot. But hey.. it's home.

HA! I love the northerners. I'm told I have Welsh heritage. I loved telling my buds that one. That always got the heartiest laugh. Then they'd say "dont go around broadcastin that one, mate!"

Hmm. Indeed. I do imagine God sounds like Peter O'Toole.

[mylittledemon]

that doesn't mean it's not fair or right. if the officiant is a religious figure, that is in direct violation of separation of church and state. therefore, any ceremony they perform should not be considered legally binding.

So you want to do away with all the ordained officiants, and just have "non religous" ones that can still marry people anywhere they want to?

[mylittledemon]

You're picking at a technicality and missing the bigger point.

So then, by all means, so are some of you.

[Sarah]

So then, by all means, so are some of you.

Oh really? How so? By clarifying exactly that we mean that people shouldn't be denied the right to a church wedding?

[carrie721]

So you want to do away with all the ordained officiants, and just have "non religous" ones that can still marry people anywhere they want to?

yes. people can have a separate, private, private, religious (if they want) non-legally binding ceremony. they can even do it concurrently with the legal "ceremony" (although it wouldn't be so much a ceremony as just the signing/notarizing of paperwork). but the legal ceremony should not be overseen by a religious figure.

[mylittledemon]

Oh really? How so? By clarifying exactly that we mean that people shouldn't be denied the right to a church wedding?

Well the topic i'm discussing is the officiant. Carrie seems to be under the impression that they are all "religious figures." This is not true, by a longshot. WHERE the officiant marries a couple has no bearing on the documents being official. Having everyone march down to the courthouse is ridiculous. It'll never go over; and that mindset is not fair, its hardly feasible, and probably less than favourable with most Americans.

[bretonbanquet]

HA! I love the northerners. I'm told I have Welsh heritage. I loved telling my buds that one. That always got the heartiest laugh. Then they'd say "dont go around broadcastin that one, mate!"

Hmm. Indeed. I do imagine God sounds like Peter O'Toole.

Northerners are okay, so long as they stay up north :laugh:

And yeah.. like if you go to Wales, don't pretend you're English :p

[mylittledemon]

people can have a separate, private, private, religious (if they want) non-legally binding ceremony.

The point I made in the post above is in reference to this.

[mylittledemon]

Northerners are okay, so long as they stay up north :laugh:

And yeah.. like if you go to Wales, don't pretend you're English :p

HAHA! Oh man I miss the Brits. God willing I'll be making a trip back to the UK next year. I never did get to see Swansea...

[Sarah]

It'll never go over; and that mindset is not fair, its hardly feasible, and probably less than favourable with most Americans.

Only allowing heterosexual people to marry is not exactly fair, either, but most voting Americans seem to think it's good enough to go over.

I still say if you're too damn lazy to sign the documents at the courthouse, you don't have what it takes to be in a working relationship.

[carrie721]

Well the topic i'm discussing is the officiant. Carrie seems to be under the impression that they are all "religious figures." This is not true, by a longshot. WHERE the officiant marries a couple has no bearing on the documents being official. Having everyone march down to the courthouse is ridiculous. It'll never go over; and that mindset is not fair, its hardly feasible, and probably less than favourable with most Americans.

you are completely misrepresenting and misunderstanding my stance.

i am not under the impression that they are all religious figures.

and no ****, WHERE the couple gets married has no bearing on its legality.

and why is it ridiculous? there are legal hoops you have to jump through to get married in a church anyway - blood tests and, yes, trips to the courthouse. maybe you should look into that since you're getting married soon.

am i being clear enough now?

[mylittledemon]

Only allowing heterosexual people to marry is not exactly fair, either, but most voting Americans seem to think it's good enough to go over.

I still say if you're too damn lazy to sign the documents at the courthouse, you don't have what it takes to be in a working relationship.

That comment about the courthouse "lines" was tongue in cheek. Laugh a little. Its a lovely day.

[DrummerDeanna]

You know...I was thinking...even though it's NOT the point Carrie was trying to make AT ALL.

WHERE people can get married is even a bitch for the gays. Two of my lesbian friends recently got hitched and they had a bitch of a time simply finding a nice place to do so.

Fair? Don't even try to bring "fair" into this argument....there is no fairness. Everything is clouded by religious values that people are trying to impose upon everyone else.

If someone can give me one. Just one valid, rational, NON RELIGIOUS reason as to why gay people should not be given the right to marry then my ears are open.

[bretonbanquet]

HAHA! Oh man I miss the Brits. God willing I'll be making a trip back to the UK next year. I never did get to see Swansea...

Swansea? omg... stick to Cardiff :nod:

Cymru am byth :)

[mylittledemon]

you are completely misrepresenting and misunderstanding my stance.

i am not under the impression that they are all religious figures.

and no ****, WHERE the couple gets married has no bearing on its legality.

and why is it ridiculous? there are legal hoops you have to jump through to get married in a church anyway - blood tests and, yes, trips to the courthouse. maybe you should look into that since you're getting married soon.

am i being clear enough now?


No I GET what you are saying. an officiant, religious or no, comes into conflict by marrying someone in a church because of the seperation of church and state. Where you are missing the point is that it isnt a conflict according to current (or "modern") definitions. The state would neither be funding, or endorsing marriage by allowing its officiant to perform the ceremony (the officiant is getting paid after all)...and the church is neither endorsing the state institution by something as nutty as, say, having a religious wedding in a courthouse.

I'm getting married at a big house downtown by Lake Lucerne...By a longtime friend who happens to be an officiant, and a Christian, but he's not a minster. Go figure.

[mylittledemon]

If someone can give me one. Just one valid, rational, NON RELIGIOUS reason as to why gay people should not be given the right to marry then my ears are open.

Cuz them monkies brought the aids on and the jerry fallwell types'll just have a conniption fit. (in my best backwoods country preacher voice)

I dont think giving you a valid reason to deny gay people marriage is the point of the conversation. It wasnt my reason for this discussion. I cant, after all, give you one.

[mylittledemon]

Swansea? omg... stick to Cardiff :nod:

Cymru am byth :)

HA! Thought you'd get a chuckle out of that. I'd like to go to Cork over in the land of peat...and maybe visit Liverpool too, just for fun. I hear the girls...are...nice?

[carrie721]

No I GET what you are saying. an officiant, religious or no, comes into conflict by marrying someone in a church because of the seperation of church and state. Where you are missing the point is that it isnt a conflict according to current (or "modern") definitions. The state would neither be funding, or endorsing marriage by allowing its officiant to perform the ceremony (the officiant is getting paid after all)...and the church is neither endorsing the state institution by something as nutty as, say, having a religious wedding in a courthouse.

i'm not concerned with your interpretation of the definition of church and state separation. if you don't see that having a religious figure officiate a legal ceremony is a conflict of that separation, then i don't know what to say to you.

I'm getting married at a big house downtown by Lake Lucerne...By a longtime friend who happens to be an officiant, and a Christian, but he's not a minster. Go figure.

i don't give a ****.

[DrummerDeanna]

Cuz them monkies brought the aids on and the jerry fallwell types'll just have a conniption fit. (in my best backwoods country preacher voice)

I dont think giving you a valid reason to deny gay people marriage is the point of the conversation. It wasnt my reason for this discussion. I cant, after all, give you one.

:shrug: I wasn't asking YOU to - I was saying, in a broad sense, that there are no good reasons to deny same sex couples the right to marry. Nor did I say it was the reason for the discussion - I was just saying that it's silly to bring the word "fair" into the equation.

[bretonbanquet]

HA! Thought you'd get a chuckle out of that. I'd like to go to Cork over in the land of peat...and maybe visit Liverpool too, just for fun. I hear the girls...are...nice?

Ireland is great :nod: Liverpool is nicer than people make out.. and the girls? hmmm.. :laugh:

[carrie721]

You know...I was thinking...even though it's NOT the point Carrie was trying to make AT ALL.

WHERE people can get married is even a bitch for the gays. Two of my lesbian friends recently got hitched and they had a bitch of a time simply finding a nice place to do so.

Fair? Don't even try to bring "fair" into this argument....there is no fairness. Everything is clouded by religious values that people are trying to impose upon everyone else.

If someone can give me one. Just one valid, rational, NON RELIGIOUS reason as to why gay people should not be given the right to marry then my ears are open.

nobody could. religion is so woven into every part of our society that nobody could explain it in non-religious terms.

[mylittledemon]

i'm not concerned with your interpretation of the definition of church and state separation. if you don't see that having a religious figure officiate a legal ceremony is a conflict of that separation, then i don't know what to say to you.



i don't give a ****.

I think you are concerned, considering our banter back and forth on the subject. MY POINT, again, is that many officiants are not religious figures. And having one of them, perform a marriage, in a CHURCH isnt a conflict. I proved my argument fairly clearly above. I do understand your point, and how you could make YOUR argument against having a religious officiant perform a religious ceremony. I never said i didnt understand that.


You dont give a ****? You cared enough to point out that I might like to look into current wedding practices since I am getting married soon, anyway. I'd like to take this moment to reflect, against my better judgement, that a previous thread about dogs was closed due to nothing (according to a mod) that I said. Perhaps its just me, but I believe I am always civil in my discussions. I'd actually love to sit face to face with you over a pint and have a laugh about our differences. But since you dont give a **** maybe it dont mattuh!

[mylittledemon]

:shrug: I wasn't asking YOU to - I was saying, in a broad sense, that there are no good reasons to deny same sex couples the right to marry. Nor did I say it was the reason for the discussion - I was just saying that it's silly to bring the word "fair" into the equation.

I know you werent singling me out. i was merely, giving my 2 cents on your thoughts. =)

[DrummerDeanna]

nobody could. religion is so woven into every part of our society that nobody could explain it in non-religious terms.

I know. Which is why I make the offer ;) Absolutely no one has been able to give me any good reason outside of the whole religious thing. And to be honest - I don't even buy the religious view because, well, it's not a valid one :laugh:

A couple of little passages taken completely out of historical and other types of context do not the basis for discrimination make.

I mean they used the Bible to discriminate against Black people - and women. Anyway...I'm not a valid Christian anyway so what does my opinion matter :p

[mylittledemon]

I mean they used the Bible to discriminate against Black people - and women. Anyway...I'm not a valid Christian anyway so what does my opinion matter :p

Thats funny because the Bible states that the Lord is the Lord of all men, regardless of colour and creed. Its a shame someone would use that book for such purposes.

[carrie721]

I think you are concerned, considering our banter back and forth on the subject. MY POINT, again, is that many officiants are not religious figures. And having one of them, perform a marriage, in a CHURCH isnt a conflict. I proved my argument fairly clearly above. I do understand your point, and how you could make YOUR argument against having a religious officiant perform a religious ceremony. I never said i didnt understand that.


You dont give a ****? You cared enough to point out that I might like to look into current wedding practices since I am getting married soon, anyway. I'd like to take this moment to reflect, against my better judgement, that a previous thread about dogs was closed due to nothing (according to a mod) that I said. Perhaps its just me, but I believe I am always civil in my discussions. I'd actually love to sit face to face with you over a pint and have a laugh about our differences. But since you dont give a **** maybe it dont mattuh!

um, it's pretty much no secret whose comments got the dog thread closed. so i don't know what your point is in that regard. that thread wasn't out of control until someone started personally attacking sarah.

and no, i don't give a ****. and no, it doesn't matter. i would never, ever, ever want to sit down with you and have a pint. your beliefs are almost 100% contrary to what i believe to be true and right, and based on what i've read on these boards we don't have enough common interests to make up for that. so don't waste any more time wondering.

[mikeschmike]

Thats funny because the Bible states that the Lord is the Lord of all men, regardless of colour and creed. Its a shame someone would use that book for such purposes.

Strange things happen when the word of "one" is being interpreted by billions of people.

[Sarah]

Strange things happen when the word of "one" is being interpreted by billions of people.

Strange that the word of one is written in a book that hasn't been changed in FOR FREAKIN EVER. Because, you know, miracles totally stopped happening.

I'll believe the word of one when it's spoken to me. Not when it's beaten into me at a brainwashing service.

[mylittledemon]

and no, i don't give a ****. and no, it doesn't matter. i would never, ever, ever want to sit down with you and have a pint. your beliefs are almost 100% contrary to what i believe to be true and right, and based on what i've read on these boards we don't have enough common interests to make up for that. so don't waste any more time wondering.

Well just because your beliefs and mine are totally opposite neither makes them right and "true" regardless. What we believe is what we believe because its right for our own hearts. if you couldnt sit and have a pint with someone and have a friendly argument I'd say its your kind of closed mindedness makes you, once again, the minority.

[DrummerDeanna]

Strange that the word of one is written in a book that hasn't been changed in FOR FREAKIN EVER. Because, you know, miracles totally stopped happening.

I'll believe the word of one when it's spoken to me. Not when it's beaten into me at a brainwashing service.

But the thing is - it HAS been changed over the years. Always by a bunch of men - a bunch of men with agendas. There have been numerous redactions made to the Bible over the years - which further dilutes its absolute truthiness.

Anyway.



Thats funny because the Bible states that the Lord is the Lord of all men, regardless of colour and creed. Its a shame someone would use that book for such purposes.

Why is that funny? Because it happened? Because it further proves that people can, have and continue to use the Bible as a weapon against certain people?

It is a shame that people would use the book for such purposes. I was always taught that Bible is a guide, a tool - and not a weapon.

[carrie721]

Well just because your beliefs and mine are totally opposite neither makes them right and "true" regardless. What we believe is what we believe because its right for our own hearts. if you couldnt sit and have a pint with someone and have a friendly argument I'd say its your kind of closed mindedness makes you, once again, the minority.

please. spare me.

[mylittledemon]

I'll believe the word of one when it's spoken to me. Not when it's beaten into me at a brainwashing service.

Seeing is believing they say. Then again, you're confusing church dogma with Biblical text.

[Sarah]

But the thing is - it HAS been changed over the years. Always by a bunch of men - a bunch of men with agendas. There have been numerous redactions made to the Bible over the years - which further dilutes its absolute truthiness.

Anyway.

By changed I mean "added to". As in, teh stories.

[Sarah]

Seeing is believing they say. Then again, you're confusing church dogma with Biblical text.

What else is there to go on? It's still belief in something just because someone else says it's so... without any proof.

[mylittledemon]

But the thing is - it HAS been changed over the years. Always by a bunch of men - a bunch of men with agendas. There have been numerous redactions made to the Bible over the years - which further dilutes its absolute truthiness.

Anyway.

Why is that funny? Because it happened? Because it further proves that people can, have and continue to use the Bible as a weapon against certain people?

It is a shame that people would use the book for such purposes. I was always taught that Bible is a guide, a tool - and not a weapon.

Well I didnt mean LITERALLY funny...just funny that, looking back, that someone could even believe the discrimination against blacks, or women was "right" by using the Bible as motivator. It says plainly the Lord is the Lord of all men, regardless of colour and creed, or nation, etc. I would say those passages would make it crystal clear that those preaching such a message are not of God, and to use the Bible as such a weapon for their own gain, or purpose would weed them out as the wolves.

[DrummerDeanna]

By changed I mean "added to". As in, teh stories.

Gotcha. Yeah - that always bothered me as a young Catholic tot...I would harass my mom and grandma with "why are all the stories so ooooold!?!"

Never did get an answer :mad:

[carrie721]

Gotcha. Yeah - that always bothered me as a young Catholic tot...I would harass my mom and grandma with "why are all the stories so ooooold!?!"

Never did get an answer :mad:

"ma, the bible is a done deal!"

:laugh:

[JazmenFlowers]

nobody could. religion is so woven into every part of our society that nobody could explain it in non-religious terms.
got enough guilt to start my own religion

[mylittledemon]

got enough guilt to start my own religion

Aww dont say that! That makes me feel for you. It truly does. I have my own guilt I've to deal with...it was real bad in the past. Including my bitterness towards church, and faith, and God and what have you.

[Serrart]

My first question is regarding sort of general travel about Europe.


Are the train schedules available on the internet, reliable?
Usually they are, but it's better always to take a good margin.


How do Europeans perceive Americans?
In this period, not very well, but it's impossible to generalize. You'll find a lot of nice people there. Politeness and respect for other people's traditions would be good cards to avoid bad moments.

They want to see the "Black Madonna" in Czestochowa. Has anyone ever been there? Is this going to be too touristy? Extremely crowded? The reason I ask is my mom and her sisters are elderly and I am worried about them standing in long lines.

It's a very touristy place, the Black Madonna in Czestochowa is one of the usual stops for catholic religious tours. I'd try to go quite early in the morning to avoid very long lines.


Should we take any extra precautions in Eastern Europe? I read it's extremely bad there one place and then read that violence and crime is vastly exaggerated in others. Here again I am concerned because I will be traveling with three elderly women. Are we gonna get mugged on the subway?

Just be cautious as you'd be in any other Foreign Country you don't know, even if I'd advise not to explore too much during the evening. Be also careful to people who offer you fantastic affairs for your shopping.

Romy

[michelle2677]

But I doubt the US is really any better than most other western countries. Just different.

our country is better than your country :shrug: :p

[tommer]

wow... Krakow and Kyiv, that's an...mmm...interesting choice... or shall i say quite a strange one. these are two of the gloomiest cities i've ever been to. in fact, i'm passing thru Kyiv again next week, and although i've more than a few hours to burn there, i don't think i'll leave the airport coz it doesn't worth the price of their tourists' visa.
Krakow is nothing to write home about either. other than this crumbling old palace, i can't remember anything from being there. :shrug: