Owen Wilson - drug overdose/suicide attempt

[LukeA]

At least, that's what National Enquirer/Star/Perez Hilton are all reporting at the moment.

http://www.nationalenquirer.com/owen_wilson_hospitalized/celebrity/64164

The official 'word' right now is that he was simply dehydrated.

[xdreamsunwindx]

Because lacerated wrists are a side effect of dehydration. Right.

[Sarah]

we have a cutter! down the road, not across the street, owen. i'm just kidding. i hope he turns out okay.

as a side note, i can't stand looking at his nose. it creeps me out. imagine what it's going to look like when he's old. yuck!

i like how the link do you think clay aiken is gay (http://www.nationalenquirer.com/Poll%20Do%20you%20think%20Clay%20Aiken%20is%20gay/celebrity/63946) is on there. of course i think clay aiken is gay. wtf kind of question is that?

[SuzeQuze]

Figures, I always like the crazies. I hope he recovers. So sad! And one of the few Hollywood stories that has actually surprised me.

[mikeschmike]

This has not been a good year for Hollywood drug dealers. :distress:

Here's hoping he cleans up (again). Oh and Sarah, spot on with the nose comments. It's gross.

[BTFLCHLD]

Yep, Suze, this took me by surprise too. :distress:

I love that nose! :D
http://www.aolcdn.com/aolnews_photos/06/07/20070827075109990005

[Richard B]

LOL.
In addition to his mutant nose, he also had 2 left wrists!

"Sources tell the ENQUIRER and Star that he sliced his left wrists and took an indeterminate amount of pills."

[BTFLCHLD]

LOL.
In addition to his mutant nose, he also had 2 left wrists! yes, he is a regular freak :rolleyes:

[SuzeQuze]

Yep, Suze, this took me by surprise too. :distress:

I love that nose! :D
http://www.aolcdn.com/aolnews_photos/06/07/20070827075109990005

I do too. Hot (grrrrroowwwlllllll)!

[Sarah]

I love that nose! :D
http://www.aolcdn.com/aolnews_photos/06/07/20070827075109990005

It's just so horribly ugly. It looks like a peen. :distress:

[gldstwmn]

This is very sad news. My best wishes to him. I hope he makes a full recovery. He is one of my favorites.

[Livia]

“I respectfully ask that the media allow me to receive care and heal in private during this difficult time,” the actor said in a statement released through his publicist on Monday.

No comment on the reported suicide/overdose that lead to his emergency hospitalization in Los Angeles over the weekend.

http://perezhilton.com/?p=4544

His nose freaks me out too, but I still love him (and his bro), and wish him the best.

[trackaghost]

Poor Owen, I hope he's okay. I'm a big fan, mainly of his work with Wes Anderson though.
Owen needs to get away from Hollywood and start writing with Wes again.
And I like his nose: it gives him character.

[BlackWidow]

This is surprising. I wonder why...?

[Rickypt]

This is surprising. I wonder why...?

Depression.

[BTFLCHLD]

It's just so horribly ugly. It looks like a peen. :distress: May the next VIP to enter and remain in your life have that exact nose...without the peen! :lol:

[irishgrl]

This is surprising. I wonder why...?
I wonder why too...what has Owen got to be depressed about??
He's hawt, successful, got beautiful gals drooling over him (Kate Hudson is a doll!)
what more could he want?

ps: I dont mind his nose, esp since his eyes/hair/teeth/mouth and everything else is so adorable! He's a cutie, and I hope he makes a speedy recovery.

[jannieC]

I wonder why too...what has Owen got to be depressed about??
He's hawt, successful, got beautiful gals drooling over him (Kate Hudson is a doll!)
what more could he want?



You're just kidding with this, right?

[SuzeQuze]

You're just kidding with this, right?

Hope so. Depression doesn't descriminate.

[TrueFaith77]

A rather perceptive friend of mine said to me about a year ago after re-watching (the wonderful) Bottle Rocket, "Owen Wilson is doomed."

[BlackWidow]

I wonder why too...what has Owen got to be depressed about??
He's hawt, successful, got beautiful gals drooling over him (Kate Hudson is a doll!)
what more could he want?

ps: I dont mind his nose, esp since his eyes/hair/teeth/mouth and everything else is so adorable! He's a cutie, and I hope he makes a speedy recovery.

I thought they broke up a few months ago?

[skcin]

Hope so. Depression doesn't descriminate.

Of course it does, Suze. Don't you know if you're attractive & rich & date other attractive people, you're immune to it? :rolleyes:

[SuzeQuze]

Of course it does, Suze. Don't you know if you're attractive & rich & date other attractive people, you're immune to it? :rolleyes:

:lol: :xoxo: Thanks for that laugh!

[irishgrl]

Of course it does, Suze. Don't you know if you're attractive & rich & date other attractive people, you're immune to it? :rolleyes:
Excuse me. From where I sit, he looked like he had a great life, and he always seemed to be in good spirits. He would have been the last person I would have suspected of being depressed. :shrug:

[MacMan]

Depression.

Apparently he's been to rehab before, not sure when, but on CNN last night they were saying it was a place called Hazelden and it was for coke and heroin dependency... which could all be tied into depression and this result if he's still struggling with it...

[GODDESS6]

i feel bad for him, they were saying last night, that he had a coke/heroin problem & woody harrelson had had an intervention at some point & that earlier sunday owen had a horrible fall-out w/ a very close friend~ i wish him all the best~ & for the record, his nose ain't that bad, i've seen worse & besides i have always thought he was cute:shrug:~

[trackaghost]

Excuse me. From where I sit, he looked like he had a great life, and he always seemed to be in good spirits. He would have been the last person I would have suspected of being depressed. :shrug:

I don't think you can base someone's mental wellbeing on film publicity and the occasional paparazzi photo.
Owen is well known around Hollywood for having more than his fair share of problems, including drugs. I had heard heroin in the past, but that may have been a rumour. Sheryl Crow split up with him because of his problems. I believe the song Safe And Sound is about him.

[danax6]

He dated both Sheryl Crow and Kate Hudson? Oy, I am so out of the loop. Wasn't Kate married recently, didn't she have a baby?

Poor Owen. He's one of the few Hollywood people I genuinely like.

[Mywyldhrt]

i feel bad for him, they were saying last night, that he had a coke/heroin problem & woody harrelson had had an intervention at some point & that earlier sunday owen had a horrible fall-out w/ a very close friend~ i wish him all the best~ & for the record, his nose ain't that bad, i've seen worse & besides i have always thought he was cute:shrug:~


leading a double life because of drugs is truley horrible. He was I guess a "functional" drug addict. That is very hard to do. You gotta go to work and you gotta do your drugs. Its very hard not to mix the two.

[trackaghost]

He dated both Sheryl Crow and Kate Hudson? Oy, I am so out of the loop. Wasn't Kate married recently, didn't she have a baby?

Poor Owen. He's one of the few Hollywood people I genuinely like.

She was married to Chris Robinson of The Black Crowes and they had a son together in 2004. It's rumoured Kate left Chris for Owen, and I'd say it's probably true since when they met making You Me & Dupree she was still married. All good gossip mag fodder though!

[irishgrl]

I don't think you can base someone's mental wellbeing on film publicity and the occasional paparazzi photo.
Owen is well known around Hollywood for having more than his fair share of problems, including drugs. I had heard heroin in the past, but that may have been a rumour. Sheryl Crow split up with him because of his problems. I believe the song Safe And Sound is about him.
ok, I wasnt aware of his past drug use, and from all I'd heard, depression usually has a trigger, something you're depressed about. I just wasnt aware that he had anything to be depressed over. If it had to do with a relationship (friend or otherwise) ending, then yeah, I can see him being depressed over it.

Im really sorry for him, I hope he gets the help he needs.

[skcin]

Excuse me. From where I sit, he looked like he had a great life, and he always seemed to be in good spirits. He would have been the last person I would have suspected of being depressed. :shrug:

Jannie & Suze disagreed with you first, but I notice you chose to quote only me. I hope it's not personal.

And most celebrities put on a happy face no matter what. You can't judge a book by its cover. :shrug:

[gldstwmn]

Sheryl Crow split up with him because of his problems. I believe the song Safe And Sound is about him.

That song has been going through my head ever since I heard about this. :distress:

[gldstwmn]

She was married to Chris Robinson of The Black Crowes and they had a son together in 2004. It's rumoured Kate left Chris for Owen, and I'd say it's probably true since when they met making You Me & Dupree she was still married. All good gossip mag fodder though!

Incidently, Chris Robinson is a cleaned up heroin user.

[Livia]

The latest from Perizzle:

"Before his suicide attempt on Sunday, Owen Wilson went on a drug binge.

His poison of choice?

According to reports, a deadly cocktail of illegal drugs, including crystal meth and OxyContin - also known as “hillbilly heroin.”

Stay away from drugs, kids!"

[jannieC]

ok, I wasnt aware of his past drug use, and from all I'd heard, depression usually has a trigger, something you're depressed about. I just wasnt aware that he had anything to be depressed over. If it had to do with a relationship (friend or otherwise) ending, then yeah, I can see him being depressed over it.

Im really sorry for him, I hope he gets the help he needs.

People who are clinically depressed don't necessarily need something to be depressed <i>about</i>. It's a chemical imbalance.

[Sarah]

The latest from Perizzle:

"Before his suicide attempt on Sunday, Owen Wilson went on a drug binge.

His poison of choice?

According to reports, a deadly cocktail of illegal drugs, including crystal meth and OxyContin - also known as “hillbilly heroin.”

Stay away from drugs, kids!"

the area that i live in has a VERY serious problem with meth and oxy. it's an epidemic here, really. there are meth labs all over the place out in the rural area. plus, there are mobile meth labs now... even large scale ones built in the backs of like box trucks. the people who use it look absolutely hideous. when you smoke it, it literally eats the enamel off your teeth, then starts eating the teeth themselves. so there are all kinds of people running around with hardly any teeth.. sunken in faces.. and sores where they tweak out and pick at themselves for hours on end. it's like night of the living dead. :distress:

i can't imagine that he is a regular meth user.. he just doesn't look it. unless he's a meth snorter, but most tweakers are smokers. and oxy? i read stories about people getting tossed in jail over trying to forge prescriptions for it all.the.time.

[vermicious knid]

Here is a little insider information. You won't find this at any gossip site.

At the time of this occurance, Owen had accepted a movie role in which his character repeatedly tries to kill himself, but fails. I guess it was supposed to be an irreverant comedy. I don't know.

The screenwriter of the movie told someone else who told me.

[irishgrl]

Jannie & Suze disagreed with you first, but I notice you chose to quote only me. I hope it's not personal. And most celebrities put on a happy face no matter what. You can't judge a book by its cover. :shrug:
no its not personal, are you paranoid? I only quoted you because you were the most recent person to disagree (but I would have thot you'd be the first!) anyway, take a chill pill.

and about that movie he was supposed to be a part of.....he's since been released from that project from what I read. (on a gossip site no less...)

LOS ANGELES - Owen Wilson, hospitalized after an apparent suicide attempt, has dropped out of the upcoming ensemble comedy "Tropic Thunder."

The 38-year-old actor will not appear in the DreamWorks movie, already six weeks into production in Hawaii. Sources, who spoke on condition of anonymity because they weren't authorized to comment, told The Associated Press that Wilson was to have a cameo role in the film. "Tropic Thunder" stars Jack Black, Robert Downey, Jr., and Ben Stiller, who is also directing.



also, Jannie, has it been determined that Owen is "clinically depressed?" if not, then I would assume Owen's depression would need some sort of trigger :shrug:

[SuzeQuze]

no its not personal, are you paranoid? I only quoted you because you were the most recent person to disagree (but I would have thot you'd be the first!) anyway, take a chill pill.

and about that movie he was supposed to be a part of.....he's since been released from that project from what I read. (on a gossip site no less...)



also, Jannie, has it been determined that Owen is "clinically depressed?" if not, then I would assume Owen's depression would need some sort of trigger :shrug:

I know you're addressing Jannie but I thought I'd chime in. The drugs can be the trigger. But it's likely that what sent him to the drugs is it, whatever pain he is trying to numb. Whether depression is situational or endemic it is clinical and requires treatment. I hope he gets good treatment. People who use drugs often have a biological predisposition toward depression and are self-medicating for it. Some people in my family are recovering addicts and that is why. They just needed and found something that finally made them feel good. Except the consequences are no good.

[irishgrl]

I know you're addressing Jannie but I thought I'd chime in. The drugs can be the trigger. But it's likely that what sent him to the drugs is it, whatever pain he is trying to numb. Whether depression is situational or endemic it is clinical and requires treatment. I hope he gets good treatment. People who use drugs often have a biological predisposition toward depression and are self-medicating for it. Some people in my family are recovering addicts and that is why. They just needed and found something that finally made them feel good. Except the consequences are no good.
ok, I know people self medicate, but it isnt just for depression, it could also be for ADD, bipolar or other chemical imbalances. Just because a person uses drugs, doesnt necessarily mean they are depressed, they could be suffering from some other condition.

In this case, I dont think I'd call the drugs a trigger so much as an enabler. People on drugs do things they wouldnt ordinarily do :shrug:

by the way, the term "clinical depression" is often misused or misunderstood. I took Jannie's comment to refer to a clinical diagnosis of depression, to wit:
Doctors use the term "clinical depression" to describe the more severe, persistent form of depression.
source: Mayo Clinic.com

Major Depression
(Clinical Depression)

Major depression is also known as clinical depression, unipolar depression, and major depressive disorder. People who experience major depression feel persistently sad. They do not take pleasure in activities that were once enjoyable. Other physical and mental problems often experienced include sleep problems, loss of appetite, inability to concentrate, memory problems, and aches and pains. People who suffer from this condition often feel worthless, helpless, and hopeless about their ability to fix things. They often welcome sleep and experience their waking life as a living nightmare. No matter how hard they try to snap out of it, they feel as though they are falling into an abyss with nothing to hold on to.

Major depression usually strikes people between the ages of 25 and 44, although it can affect any person at any age. For most people, episodes of major depression last from six to nine months.
source: HealthyPlace.com

Suze, I havent heard anything (yet) to indicate Owen is suffering from a clinical diagnosis of depression, so I assumed it was more "situational" as you mentioned. The fact that his behavior took so many of his close friends and family by surprise leads me to believe that it was a more recent development, not an ongoing condition that had to be monitored.

[SuzeQuze]

ok, I know people self medicate, but it isnt just for depression, it could also be for ADD, bipolar or other chemical imbalances. Just because a person uses drugs, doesnt necessarily mean they are depressed, they could be suffering from some other condition.

In this case, I dont think I'd call the drugs a trigger so much as an enabler. People on drugs do things they wouldnt ordinarily do :shrug:

by the way, the term "clinical depression" is often misused or misunderstood. I took Jannie's comment to refer to a clinical diagnosis of depression, to wit:



Suze, I havent heard anything (yet) to indicate Owen is suffering from a clinical diagnosis of depression, so I assumed it was more "situational" as you mentioned. The fact that his behavior took so many of his close friends and family by surprise leads me to believe that it was a more recent development, not an ongoing condition that had to be monitored.

People can be very good at hiding mild to moderate depression. I'm just drawing conclusions based on what little facts we have, my life experience, and my degree. If someone attempts suicide, they are depressed. It is a clear symptom of the disease. Situational and endemic depression are both clinical diagnoses requiring treatment. Who knows what is really going on with him, we are all just speculating.

[carrie721]

ok, I know people self medicate, but it isnt just for depression, it could also be for ADD, bipolar or other chemical imbalances. Just because a person uses drugs, doesnt necessarily mean they are depressed, they could be suffering from some other condition.

In this case, I dont think I'd call the drugs a trigger so much as an enabler. People on drugs do things they wouldnt ordinarily do :shrug:

by the way, the term "clinical depression" is often misused or misunderstood. I took Jannie's comment to refer to a clinical diagnosis of depression, to wit:



Suze, I havent heard anything (yet) to indicate Owen is suffering from a clinical diagnosis of depression, so I assumed it was more "situational" as you mentioned. The fact that his behavior took so many of his close friends and family by surprise leads me to believe that it was a more recent development, not an ongoing condition that had to be monitored.

jesus. you will argue anything. :lol: :lol: why do you care whether or not he was clinically depressed? why do you think you have some insight into the situation that the rest of us don't have? of course his friends and family are expressing their surprise, what are they supposed to say? "yep, i called that one"? :shrug: i don't get what you're searching for here. there is so much information we're not privy to here ...

[trackaghost]

ok, I know people self medicate, but it isnt just for depression, it could also be for ADD, bipolar or other chemical imbalances. Just because a person uses drugs, doesnt necessarily mean they are depressed, they could be suffering from some other condition.


Owen actually said that he suffered from bouts of depression in EW a while back. I also remember he said something like, "Who made up the rule that you can't buy happiness? Why can't it come from, say, a new pair of shoes?", which is quite telling. If you add that with his reputation for partying, I think it sounds like he was trying to cover up how unhappy he was.

[irishgrl]

People can be very good at hiding mild to moderate depression. I'm just drawing conclusions based on what little facts we have, my life experience, and my degree. If someone attempts suicide, they are depressed. It is a clear symptom of the disease. Situational and endemic depression are both clinical diagnoses requiring treatment. Who knows what is really going on with him, we are all just speculating.


Very true.

jesus. you will argue anything. why do you care whether or not he was clinically depressed? why do you think you have some insight into the situation that the rest of us don't have? of course his friends and family are expressing their surprise, what are they supposed to say? "yep, i called that one"? i don't get what you're searching for here. there is so much information we're not privy to here ...

I brought it up because Jannie mentioned "clinically depressed" and from what Ive read, thats a bit more serious than depression in general, with more OBVIOUS warning signs and a lengthier time span...so, If he was CLINICALLY depressed, it would NOT have been a surprise, and his close friends and family WOULD have been more observant or alert.

Owen actually said that he suffered from bouts of depression in EW a while back. I also remember he said something like, "Who made up the rule that you can't buy happiness? Why can't it come from, say, a new pair of shoes?", which is quite telling. If you add that with his reputation for partying, I think it sounds like he was trying to cover up how unhappy he was

I havent followed him that closely and Im not an expert in depression. All Im saying is that a lot of people self-medicate (party!!), depressed and otherwise. I keep coming back to the fact that those closest to him (his brother, his ex-girlfriend) were very shocked at this event, so If they were surprised, I guess it either came on very sudden or he was extremely good at hiding it. Either way, I wish him well, I really like him and hope he gets better soon.

[gldstwmn]

Owen actually said that he suffered from bouts of depression in EW a while back. I also remember he said something like, "Who made up the rule that you can't buy happiness? Why can't it come from, say, a new pair of shoes?", which is quite telling. If you add that with his reputation for partying, I think it sounds like he was trying to cover up how unhappy he was.

As soon as I heard him refer to it as the "Irish strain of depression" I thought uh oh becuase I am very familiar with that. I appreciated his attempt to make it comical but it is no laughing matter. I'm sure somebody somewhere has done some sort of clinical research on it. If not, they should. I can't throw a rock in my family without hitting someone who has it.

[Rickypt]

I brought it up because Jannie mentioned "clinically depressed" and from what Ive read, thats a bit more serious than depression in general, with more OBVIOUS warning signs and a lengthier time span...so, If he was CLINICALLY depressed, it would NOT have been a surprise, and his close friends and family WOULD have been more observant or alert.


I don't know what you've read, but I can speak from experience. I was given a clinical diagnosis of severe depression a couple of years and it lasted for several months. I was also somewhat suicidal during this time. My family and most close friends to this day don't know about it and I'm sure if I had attempted suicide during this time, they would have been quite surprised.

Like Carrie, I'm a little confused why you are arguing this one so much. It seems to be an issue that you don't know much about and I don't think you can really understand depression by reading articles.

[amber]

Owen actually said that he suffered from bouts of depression in EW a while back. I also remember he said something like, "Who made up the rule that you can't buy happiness? Why can't it come from, say, a new pair of shoes?", which is quite telling. If you add that with his reputation for partying, I think it sounds like he was trying to cover up how unhappy he was.

I'm not sure I understand. Why is that phrase telling? Do you mean that he was using it sarcastically? Or because why would a person who is happy talk about buying happiness? I don't get what you mean. Maybe because I agree with his statement somewhat. I'm pretty sure I could buy a lot of happiness, and wonder who indeed made up that "rule" :P Not to say that rich people are always happy, obviously that is not true. Just saying, you know, for me, I'm pretty sure I could add quite a bit of happiness to my life with a bunch of money. heheh.

[Sarah]

I don't know what you've read, but I can speak from experience. I was given a clinical diagnosis of severe depression a couple of years and it lasted for several months. I was also somewhat suicidal during this time. My family and most close friends to this day don't know about it and I'm sure if I had attempted suicide during this time, they would have been quite surprised.

Like Carrie, I'm a little confused why you are arguing this one so much. It seems to be an issue that you don't know much about and I don't think you can really understand depression by reading articles.

Yes. I agree. I have had depression issues - mostly stemming from my severe anxiety and emotional problems - for years. It's true that everybody gets down and out by triggers here and there... but until you've woken up and felt like offing yourself for no particular reason - other than the fact that you're sad that you ACTUALLY WOKE UP - you really just don't know.

Some periods of time are worse than others, but it's something I'll probably be dealing with for the rest of my life. I'd be a liar if I said I didn't have at least some point during each day where I'm just like ... go find a place to be alone, and sit there and frown thinking, "oh ****, oh ****, oh ****, oh ****, i cannot deal with work/people/breathing anymore.. whyyyy do i feel like this for no reason" ... so I'm kind of offended when anyone (not just irish, but people say it all the time) insinuates that something HAS TO CAUSE it. Some of us just feel this way. I did before I started using illegal drugs, and I do after I quit. I did on and off prescribed medication. And I did during some of the more successful periods of my life. It's just some old gnarly **** that happens.

I'm guessing by your past-tense phrasing that you're over your hurdles, Rickypt. I'm glad to read that. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.. except like, Michael Vick.

[SuzeQuze]

I'm not sure I understand. Why is that phrase telling? Do you mean that he was using it sarcastically? Or because why would a person who is happy talk about buying happiness? I don't get what you mean. Maybe because I agree with his statement somewhat. I'm pretty sure I could buy a lot of happiness, and wonder who indeed made up that "rule" :P Not to say that rich people are always happy, obviously that is not true. Just saying, you know, for me, I'm pretty sure I could add quite a bit of happiness to my life with a bunch of money. heheh.

Statistically people are happier to have more money only up to the point where they can comfortably pay all their bills. Rich people are no happier than middle class folks, statistically. Money only comes into play when you can't pay your bills which causes obvious stress and unhappiness.

[SuzeQuze]

Yes. I agree. I have had depression issues - mostly stemming from my severe anxiety and emotional problems - for years. It's true that everybody gets down and out by triggers here and there... but until you've woken up and felt like offing yourself for no particular reason - other than the fact that you're sad that you ACTUALLY WOKE UP - you really just don't know.

Some periods of time are worse than others, but it's something I'll probably be dealing with for the rest of my life. I'd be a liar if I said I didn't have at least some point during each day where I'm just like ... go find a place to be alone, and sit there and frown thinking, "oh ****, oh ****, oh ****, oh ****, i cannot deal with work/people/breathing anymore.. whyyyy do i feel like this for no reason" ... so I'm kind of offended when anyone (not just irish, but people say it all the time) insinuates that something HAS TO CAUSE it. Some of us just feel this way. I did before I started using illegal drugs, and I do after I quit. I did on and off prescribed medication. And I did during some of the more successful periods of my life. It's just some old gnarly **** that happens.

I'm guessing by your past-tense phrasing that you're over your hurdles, Rickypt. I'm glad to read that. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.. except like, Michael Vick.

The Noonday Demon is a good book to understand the disease as written by someone who suffers from depression.

Also, there is no such thing as "regular depression". You're either clinically depressed or you're not. You might have the blues or something but not actual depression. The word can be misused that way.

[Sarah]

Also, there is no such thing as "regular depression". You're either clinically depressed or you're not. You might have the blues or something but not actual depression. The word can be misused that way.

I don't know who you're addressing here, but I can assure you that I wouldn't claim the thing if it wasn't the case. It's not something I want, and I'm not trying to misuse the word. I don't think I said "regular depression" so you might not even be talking to me after you quoted me. But.

My particular problem is not the depression so much itself, but.. I have Generalized Anxiety Disorder. I view depression as another symptom of that in a way. The effing constant severe anxiety that I feel - I'd estimate - about 90% of the day, every day about any given thing, really, makes me so tired and bummy that a point comes where it's just like crashing down, and that's where the depression occurs. It's like being on a rollercoaster and not liking any part of the ride.

Like I said.. there are some things that trigger it, the death of a family member or friend, illness, money problems, etc.. but I myself don't get "the blues". I'd love it if that was simply the case. I could probably deal with the blues a little better.

I don't claim to know psychology, even though at one point I was on the path of study towards becoming a clinical therapist. But I do know what I've been treated for and how I feel, so I'm not really interested in trying to "learn about it from somebody who really has it". I feel kind of patronized by that, really.

Yuck. I hate talking about it. My anxiety is something I usually work very hard to hide. I'll just go back over here and shut up. :shrug:

[amber]

Statistically people are happier to have more money only up to the point where they can comfortably pay all their bills. Rich people are no happier than middle class folks, statistically. Money only comes into play when you can't pay your bills which causes obvious stress and unhappiness.

Okay. :shrug: I was asking why that phrase was telling. I would probably say the same thing as he did, but it wouldn't be "telling", it would be "true".
And it's nice to not be part of the statistic, because if I had oodles of money and could go and do whatever I wanted all the time, and was famous and attractive, I'm pretty sure I'd be happier. Even without the fame and attractiveness, just the money. But then, I can't pay my bills and I'm kinda happy, so there ya go. Not about that, obviously. :laugh: In fact, most things that make me unhappy come from the fact that I have to slog my f*cking ass to work all day, every day, and spend time with people I really wouldn't want to talk to for the most part, when really, I could be in some exotic tropical land swimming, or at some river swimming, or at some river singing and swimming, or I could be playing volleyball, or laying in my bed reading, or doing f*cking anything other than what I actually have to do to keep myself breathing and have a roof over my f*cking head. Seriously, I could be learning the guitar, rescuing animals, doing conservation work for the Himalayan snow leapord. I could nurse ocean life back to health, I could volunteer in schools. I could go out every night and have a blast. And the shopping, my god, the shopping I could do! Shoes, indeed. And a massage every day. So that, you know, the bad energy doesn't build up in my body and cause depression.
But no. I have to have some f*cking job. Oh, the injustice!!! hahahaha.
So, independently wealthy = my problems solved.
But enough about me. :p
For the record, I'm sorry about Owen. I think he is effing HILARIOUS. Superfunny.

[jannieC]

I didn't mean to imply that I know that Owen Wilson definitely suffers from clinical depression; my statement was trying to make the argument that money and fame and lack of "triggers" does not make one immune to clinical depression. I have no idea what Owen Wilson's history is.


Also, there is no such thing as "regular depression". You're either clinically depressed or you're not. You might have the blues or something but not actual depression. The word can be misused that way.

Exactly. :nod: And all of the money and fame in the world isn't going to make it go away. It will give the sufferer more resources, though.

[Rickypt]

I'm guessing by your past-tense phrasing that you're over your hurdles, Rickypt. I'm glad to read that.

Yes, thank you, Sarah. I think of it as being in remission and I'm still (maybe always?) at risk. Which I know you can relate to, having now read your story.

[carrie721]

Yes, thank you, Sarah. I think of it as being in remission and I'm still (maybe always?) at risk. Which I know you can relate to, having now read your story.

"in remission" is a good analogy. it's always a cycle for me, it always comes back around, but i think it's easier if you're aware of it.

[irishgrl]

Suze, Jannie, and Carrie: you're misunderstanding me (so are you Ryan). The information I got was from Mayo Clinic and similar mental health info sites. Im not making anything UP. The sites clearly state that there is a general depression (more than just "the blues") and there is "clinical depression" which is WORSE, lasts longer and has obvious signs. Suze, when you say all depression is "clinical" I understand that to mean it is diagnosable/treatable by a professional (clinician). Can you see the difference? Same term, two different uses and as such, obviously misconstrued.

[irishgrl]

As soon as I heard him refer to it as the "Irish strain of depression" I thought uh oh becuase I am very familiar with that. I appreciated his attempt to make it comical but it is no laughing matter. I'm sure somebody somewhere has done some sort of clinical research on it. If not, they should. I can't throw a rock in my family without hitting someone who has it.
Chris, are you serious? What is meant by the "Irish" strain of depression?

[carrie721]

Suze, Jannie, and Carrie: you're misunderstanding me (so are you Ryan). The information I got was from Mayo Clinic and similar mental health info sites. Im not making anything UP. The sites clearly state that there is a general depression (more than just "the blues") and there is "clinical depression" which is WORSE, lasts longer and has obvious signs. Suze, when you say all depression is "clinical" I understand that to mean it is diagnosable/treatable by a professional (clinician). Can you see the difference? Same term, two different uses and as such, obviously misconstrued.

actually, i knew what you meant by "general depression" ... i think it's referred to medically as dysthymia. it differs from major clinical depression in that it's not as severe, but it's still a long-term disorder and can co-occur with major clinical depression. however it's similar in that it doesn't require anything to trigger it.

[jannieC]

The DSM-IV describes depression as a mood disorder and may be broken down into the following three types:

Major Depressive Disorder
Dysthymic Disorder
Depressive Disorder Not Otherwise Specified

Then you have Adjustment Disorder with Depressed Mood, Adjustment Disorder with Mixed Anxiety and Depressed Mood.

I don't have time to type out all of the specifics, and we can argue this (though I'm not sure why we would want to) to death, but the bottom line of the point *I* was making is that socioeconomic background is not a contributing factor to depression.

[irishgrl]

Thank you Carrie, I feel vindicated.
Jannie, socio-economic background CAN be a factor if you are on the short end of the stick. If your life is bleak, with nothing more than a future of drugs/crime/poverty, I can certainly see that as being a contributing factor to depression. And worse.

Pardon me if I made the error of assuming that Owen's smiling face and seemingly charmed life pointed to satisfaction with his situation. Of course he could have fooled people a la Ryan, but it seems like it would have taken enormous amounts of energy to keep up such a charade for so long if thats the case....at any rate, its a shame and I really do hope he gets well.

[jannieC]

Jannie, socio-economic background CAN be a factor if you are on the short end of the stick. If your life is bleak, with nothing more than a future of drugs/crime/poverty, I can certainly see that as being a contributing factor to depression. And worse.



Your socioeconmonic background may help you with coping skills for dealing with your depression but is not a contributing factor to depression in itself.

[irishgrl]

Your socioeconmonic background may help you with coping skills for dealing with your depression but is not a contributing factor to depression in itself.
the only way it would help is if you were reasonably comfortable.

if however, you were abjectly poor, I could see that VERY MUCH being a contributing factor to depression. money issues are one of the most consistent stressors in a person's life/relationships etc.

here's an experiment: go thru the poorest neighborhood you can think of. canvass people and see how many of them say they are depressed and if they believe it is caused by their lack of money or piss poor living conditions or lack of opportunity (all of which are S.O.P. for poor folks)

[carrie721]

the only way it would help is if you were reasonably comfortable.

if however, you were abjectly poor, I could see that VERY MUCH being a contributing factor to depression. money issues are one of the most consistent stressors in a person's life/relationships etc.

it's one thing to infer these things, but jannie has studied the stats :shrug:

[irishgrl]

it's one thing to infer these things, but jannie has studied the stats :shrug:
well, then, I can tell all of you from first hand experience, lack of money has directly contributed to MY depression. (lack of sleep, anxiety, etc) Im not "clinically" depressed, but I sure as hell cant go out and buy new shoes.....most ALL my problems would go away if I had $$$$$ Then I'd be happy. Just like Amber.

[jannieC]

the only way it would help is if you were reasonably comfortable.

if however, you were abjectly poor, I could see that VERY MUCH being a contributing factor to depression. money issues are one of the most consistent stressors in a person's life/relationships etc.

Right, I should have said "may help or hinder"- I was typing too quickly.
here's an experiment: go thru the poorest neighborhood you can think of. canvass people and see how many of them say they are depressed and if they believe it is caused by their lack of money or piss poor living conditions or lack of opportunity (all of which are S.O.P. for poor folks)

You're confusing depression with a normal emotional/mental reaction to a ****ty situation. Two different things.

[irishgrl]

trust me, they're depressed. Ive been there.

[jannieC]

well, then, I can tell all of you from first hand experience, lack of money has directly contributed to MY depression. (lack of sleep, anxiety, etc) Im not "clinically" depressed, but I sure as hell cant go out and buy new shoes.....most ALL my problems would go away if I had $$$$$ Then I'd be happy. Just like Amber.

If all your problems would go away with new shoes, money, whatever, then you're not clinically depressed- you're just (rationally) bummed out.

[irishgrl]

If all your problems would go away with new shoes, money, whatever, then you're not clinically depressed- you're just (rationally) bummed out.
I fit the profile for general depression :shrug:
and I can tell you that I do get feelings of hopelessness and despair etc...and you'll notice I said MOST all...the biggest problem in my life, one that I've been fighting for 7 years now with no end in sight, money cant fix.

Family court issues are enough to make ANYONE despair....especially when its your CHILD at stake...

[carrie721]

I fit the profile for general depression :shrug:
and I can tell you that I do get feelings of hopelessness and despair etc...and you'll notice I said MOST all...the biggest problem in my life, one that I've been fighting for 7 years now with no end in sight, money cant fix.

Family court issues are enough to make ANYONE despair....especially when its your CHILD at stake...

just because you fit the profile doesn't mean you can make a blanket statement about depression and socioeconomic factors.

and as for family court ... again, that would be a rational reaction, no?

[Sarah]

you guys are stressin' me out. ;)

[jannieC]

I fit the profile for general depression :shrug:
and I can tell you that I do get feelings of hopelessness and despair etc...and you'll notice I said MOST all...the biggest problem in my life, one that I've been fighting for 7 years now with no end in sight, money cant fix.

Family court issues are enough to make ANYONE despair....especially when its your CHILD at stake...

If you have been diagnosed by a physician or a licensed therapist as being depressed, I hope he or she steered you in the right direction as far as therapy and meds go.

I do understand that you've had a lot on your plate regarding your son- not an easy situation, to say the least.

you guys are stressin' me out. ;)

I'm sorry! :o I'm hitting the hay now anyway- I have a long ass day tomorrow.

[Sarah]

I'm sorry! :o I'm hitting the hay now anyway- I have a long ass day tomorrow.

lol. I'm just teasing. :) Good luck tomorrow!

[irishgrl]

If you have been diagnosed by a physician or a licensed therapist as being depressed, I hope he or she steered you in the right direction as far as therapy and meds go.

I do understand that you've had a lot on your plate regarding your son- not an easy situation, to say the least.



I'm sorry! :o I'm hitting the hay now anyway- I have a long ass day tomorrow.
Jannie, I havent been to a Shrink, nor do I take meds.
as for this:
just because you fit the profile doesn't mean you can make a blanket statement about depression and socioeconomic factors.
and as for family court ... again, that would be a rational reaction, no?

I am not the one making the blanket statement, I am rebutting Janie's blanket statement re: depression and socio-economic factors.

furthermore, if Ryan can use himself as an example of a "clinically depressed" person who has FOOLED all his closest friends and family (and thus, Owen must have done the same), then I see no reason why I cant point out MY own symptoms, and stressors as validation for depression, or make the claim that abject (even generational) poverty is a prime breeding ground for depression that goes far beyond "being upset about a ****ty situation." :shrug:

[irishgrl]

Jannie, I havent been to a Shrink, nor do I take meds.
as for this:


I am not the one making the blanket statement, I am rebutting Janie's blanket statement re: depression and socio-economic factors.

furthermore, if Ryan can use himself as an example of a "clinically depressed" person who has FOOLED all his closest friends and family (and thus, Owen must have done the same), then I see no reason why I cant point out MY own symptoms, and stressors as validation for depression, or make the claim that abject (even generational) poverty is a prime breeding ground for depression that goes far beyond "being upset about a ****ty situation." :shrug:
ok, you asked for it:


Is Depression a Disease of Poverty? Vikram Patel *

Throughout much of Asia, diseases of poverty such as tuberculosis and other infectious diseases, have commanded the lion’s share of the pie of health policy and funding. The relationship of a mental illness such as depression to poverty has rarely been questioned. This paper has used research evidence from across the Region to demonstrate that depressive and anxiety disorders are disabling and can prevent sufferers from carrying out their tasks at home and in employment and thus have adverse economic implications for the individual, their families and society. Irrespective of the average per capita income of a society, persons who are at the bottom end of the social hierarchy are at a greater risk of suffering from these disorders than those who are at the upper end. Thus overcoming poverty might contribute to improving mental health, but it is unlikely to be enough; a more equitable distribution of resources is necessary. Social and economic policies may impose an unacknowledged burden on society by influencing the prevalence of depressive disorders. Poverty reduction and full employment policies should have benefits in reducing the prevalence of depression. Provision of microcredit as a means of reducing dependence on informal moneylenders may also reduce financial strain. Investing in education and school completion should improve the individual’s long-term opportunities and improve mental health, especially in the developing world. General practitioners and community health workers must be involved in mental health programmes. The emphasis in health policy must be to achieve adequate skills for the diagnosis and treatment of depressive and anxiety disorders in general health care settings. Treatment with antidepressant medication and inexpensive psychosocial interventions should be available everywhere. These programmes can be implemented at little additional cost, because they use existing human and infrastructural resources. Research is needed to strengthen the evidence base, particularly to identify the factors which protect persons living in severely deprived conditions from suffering from depression.

* Introduction

Poverty was termed many years ago as ‘the mother of all diseases’. Governments and donors such as the World Bank give priority in policy and funding to diseases associated with poverty. This is a prudent choice, for the poor are least able to access appropriate quality health care. Further, in most Asian countries, the majority of the population belong to the lower income group. In making choices for health funding, policy-makers are therefore guided by the epidemiological evidence which indicates the burden of disease on the population as a whole, and on the poor in particular. So far, policy on health and poverty has almost entirely skirted the issue of mental health. It has been assumed that mental illness is not a relevant health concern for the poor because they are faced with the considerable burden of ‘physical’ diseases. These attitudes are strengthened when one considers that the vast majority of mental health professionals are urban-based, and in many countries work in the private sector which caters to relatively wealthier sections of the population. Public health facilities and primary care centres report very low figures of mental illness, further reinforcing the stereotype that mental disorders are rare and mainly a problem identified in urban, middle or high income groups.

This paper focuses on depressive and anxiety disorders which are the commonest of all mental illnesses but are almost entirely seen in the general health care system as opposed to the specialist mental health care system. The paper presents evidence that these disorders pose a tremendous public health burden in all societies, irrespective of their overall level of economic development. Evidence is then presented demonstrating the relationship between these disorders with poverty and inequality. The paper concludes that depression is a disease of poverty and considers some of the public health strategies which can be implemented in Asian countries to reduce its burden on the poorest sections of the population.

* Depression and Anxiety

The symptoms of depression and anxiety are common and reported in all populations of the world (1). There is now professional consensus about the major symptoms of depression and anxiety. For example, depression is characterized by a number of symptoms, in addition to a lowering of mood. These are loss of interest, poor concentration and forgetfulness, lack of motivation, tiredness, irritability, poor sleep and changes in appetite. Anxiety is associated with a fearful feeling, worrying thoughts and physical symptoms such as palpitations, tingling sensations, headaches and chest pain. Depression and anxiety in the primary or general health care setting typically occur together. In this document, the term ‘depression’ is used to denote the clinical presentation of both depression and anxiety.

The evidence of high prevalence of depression has been building up over the past 20 odd years from a range of settings in Asia (2;2-5;5;6). These studies reveal community prevalence figures that vary between different countries but can be up to 50% in some studies from Pakistan(6). Prevalence estimates in attendees at primary health care centres, catering to the poorest members of societies, show levels that can be as high as 40% (2;7;8). Depression often runs a chronic or recurrent course with nearly half of the patients in treatment settings remaining ill for 12 months or more (9).

There is now a large body of evidence demonstrating the considerable disabling effects of depression both in the community and primary health sector(10;11). Depression and anxiety are exceptionally disabling conditions and the disability is often not widely acknowledged, in part because of the stigma associated with these illnesses. Depression is disabling for a variety of reasons. The symptoms of depression such as poor concentration and lack of motivation impair the ability to carry out everyday tasks. Irritability combined with these can affect the relationships with other family members and fellow workers. The "negative" attitudes of depression can impair judgement and reduce problem-solving abilities. It is perhaps this latter aspect of depression that is especially worrying in relation to socioeconomic inequalities. It is likely that depression impairs the ability of poor people to deal with the difficult circumstances they experience. Arguably, for the poorest people in the world, problem-solving abilities are essential in order to deal with their circumstances.

In addition to disability, there is evidence that depression can also lead to increased mortality. There is growing concern over the rising rates of suicide in many developing countries, particularly amongst adolescents and young adults in whom suicide is one of the three leading causes of death. In India, for example, the suicide rate increased by 6.2% per annum between 1980 and 1990, during which period the population growth rate was 2.1%; the highest growth in suicide rates was for young adults (12). Deliberate self-harm (i.e. self-harm which does not lead to death) is far commoner than completed suicide and is fast becoming the commonest reason for emergency medical treatment in some developing countries such as Sri Lanka (13).

Primary care is regarded as the cornerstone of health care in both the developed and developing world. Most cases of depression are treated in primary health care settings rather than in specialist clinics. However, despite the considerable evidence of the effectiveness of drug and psychological treatments for depression, albeit largely from the developed world(14;15), the vast majority of patients in developing countries do not receive these treatments. Instead, they are prescribed a cocktail of medicines aimed at various symptoms, such as painkillers, vitamins and sleeping medicines (2;16).

The Global Burden of Disease study ranked depression as the fourth leading cause of burden among all disease, accounting for 4.1% of total burden(11). By 2020 it will rise from the fourth to the second leading cause of DALYs. It will then be second only to ischaemic heart disease for DALYS among both sexes. Taking the example of ischaemic heart disease, risk factors such as smoking and high blood pressure have been identified, and public health interventions target those risk factors and try to reduce their frequency in the population. We need such public health-oriented research into depression that will then lead on to primary preventive programmes and to improved access to efficacious treatment for people with depression.

* Socioeconomic Inequalities and Depression

There is now a substantial body of evidence, which demonstrates the relationship between poverty and socioeconomic inequalities with depression in developed countries (17;18).

Evidence is beginning to accumulate demonstrating a similar association between economic disadvantage and the presence of depression in Asian countries too. For instance, a community study from Indonesia found strong associations between depression and the presence of household amenities such as electricity, and ownership of a television (19). In this study, the rates of depression in the least developed villages were twice those in the most developed villages. A primary care study reported a strong association between indicators of poverty such as being in debt and being unable to buy food with CMD, even after adjustment for a range of sociodemographic variables (2). Association of CMD with other indicators such as unemployment and low income and social class groups have been reported in other studies (3;6;8;20). There is also evidence, from prospective longitudinal studies in less developed countries outside the Region, that economic deprivation is associated with incidence and persistence of depression (21). Education, which is strongly correlated with poverty, emerges as a factor strongly associated with the prevalence of depression in many developing countries (22). The mechanism through which education might protect persons from depression is unclear. However, it is plausible that education is an important determinant of present and future life opportunities which promote mental health in later life.

Causal Pathways Between Socioeconomic Factors and Depression

* Do socioeconomic factors cause depression?

At present, there is little real understanding about the mechanisms or mediating factors between low socioeconomic status and depression. The following section gives some plausible ideas about the importance of various factors.

* Loss of social supports

There is evidence that lack of social supports may increase the risk of depression. Low socioeconomic status might decrease a person’s ability to engage in social activities. Unplanned urbanization has and is posing great strains on traditional social support systems across the developing world. The lack of social support and the breakdown of kinship structures is probably the key stressor for the millions of migrant labourers to the urban centres of Asia leaving behind millions of dependants in the rural areas whose only hope of survival are the remittances their relatives will send from distant cities. Brown and Harris, in their seminal work on the social origins of depression, identified factors such as having no one to confide in as one of the vulnerability factors for depression (23). For young women who are married far from their parental homes and live for most of the year without their husbands, it is not hard to imagine why they may be more likely to be depressed.

* Lack of control on resources

There are the obvious material stresses, which accompany poverty. The daily worries about paying essential bills and being able to afford food in the face of inflationary pressures and insecure employment could be expected to wear down even the strongest mind. The ability to deal with new difficulties is harder for those with less money. One of the most consistent predictors of mental disorder in developing country studies is lack of education. Education might provide a means of escape from poverty or access to knowledge and other ways to resolve problems (22). The lack of opportunity in a society where there is huge income inequality, high unemployment, and underemployment, and no social welfare provision can be expected to lead to feelings to hopelessness, anger and despair. There is the well-recognized association between poverty and a higher burden of physical ill health, particularly infectious diseases, and inadequate access to good, cheap health care. This may mean that many poor persons with mental health problems go untreated, and suffer for long periods as has been already described earlier.

* Social comparison

The potential stresses imposed by absolute poverty may be considerably different from those of relative poverty. One proposed mechanism is that of "cognitive comparison", whereby people are made aware of the vast differences in socioeconomic status that prevail. The knowledge of how the richer "other half live" affects psychosocial wellbeing and thus, overall health status (24).

* Does depression worsen poverty?

There is a reason to support this possibility with evidence for two major mechanisms. First, the evidence that mental disorders lead to disability which has been described earlier. For example, studies of primary health care users in India showed that subjects with depression spent more than twice the number of days in the previous month in bed or were unable to do their daily activities as compared to others (2). Second, there is evidence that persons with depression receive more health care, especially in primary health care. Most people with depression consult for physical symptoms and in many health systems, both in developing and developed countries, this can lead to numerous costly consultations, investigations and polypharmacy (7;16). Often governments are not capable or willing to finance treatment and the costs are then transferred to the sufferers who resort to the private sector. No matter who pays the bill, depression drains away precious resources.

* Cycle of impoverishment and mental disorder

Thus, the nature of the relationship between impoverishment and mental illness is complex, bi-directional and dynamic, leading to a vicious cycle of impoverishment and mental illness (Figure 1). An example of such a vicious cycle could be as follows: an episode of depression is triggered by material deprivation and domestic violence; depression in turn robs the woman of the necessary coping skills and energy to overcome her problems and leads her to spend money and time seeking relief from various health practitioners, often without any benefit.

Implications for Health Policies and Programmes

The implication of the evidence is that policies and programmes aimed at providing education and reducing poverty, and socioeconomic inequalities are highly likely to help bring down the prevalence of depression. From a public health perspective, the evidence on socioeconomic determinants and depression can be used to consider a number of primary and secondary preventive strategies.

Figure 1: The Vicious Cycle of Improverishment and Mental Disorder

* Primary prevention

Primary prevention is used to describe policies aimed at reducing the prevalence of depression. The evidence to support the efficacy of interventions in this field is weak, mainly because few, if any, interventions have been tried and/or evaluated in terms of their impact on depression. It is difficult to persuade governments or international agencies to invest in these programmes rather than primary prevention programmes for malnutrition or infectious diseases. Based on the earlier discussions, we now consider examples of primary preventive strategies:

* Investing in education

The key factor may not be whether 100% of children are in primary school, but rather the proportion of children who fail to complete the minimum years needed to obtain a secondary school certificate [10-12 years in most countries]. Even though there are impressive gains in increasing school enrolment, there may need to be further emphasis on reducing school drop-out rates; in many Asian countries, less than half the children, particularly girls, who are in primary school go on to complete their 10 years of secondary education. Because education permits greater choices in life decisions and influences aspirations, self-image and opportunities (25), it is likely that investment in education will lead to improved mental health of the population.

* Microcredit

In many Asian countries, indebtedness to loansharks is a consistent source of stress and worry. Indeed, it is not uncommon for the children of a family to spend their lives toiling to repay the interest of relatively small loans taken out by their parents. It is clear that here lies another potential preventive strategy in that local banks could step in and review their process of assessing credit-worthiness for persons who belong to the poorest segments of society. Radical community banks and loan facilities such as those run by SEWA in India and the Grameen Bank in Bangladesh could be involved in setting up such loan facilities in areas where they do not exist.

* Health promotion

Most public health campaigns such as WHO’s ‘Stop Exclusion: Dare to Care’ campaign are generally aimed at increasing awareness of mental illness, and knowledge about the effectiveness of interventions available in health services. There is also the potential to use health promotion to publicize "stress reduction" techniques that could be used more widely. Similarly, changing the characteristics of the workplace and working practices could have a beneficial effect on mental health. At present, these ideas are necessarily speculative but deserve further development and evaluation.

* Secondary prevention

The key to secondary prevention, reducing the disability consequent from the disorder, is to strengthen the treatment of depression in primary health care. There needs to be much greater cooperation and collaboration between mental health and primary care health workers.

Integration of mental health in primary health care

The integration of mental health into primary health care has been the mantra of WHO for over a decade. There needs to be greater emphasis on training general health practitioners to recognize and effectively treat depression. Just as clinicians must treat tuberculosis even if they cannot get rid of the overcrowding, so too we must challenge the mental despair of clinicians who argue that if their patients are poor, they must be depressed and there is little they can do about it. The best evidence that this belief is untrue is evidenced by the fact that the majority of the poor do not get depressed, they are merely at greater risk than the rich.

Medical pluralism in mental health care

Mental health manpower cannot meet the needs of all persons with depression, especially in developing countries. The population of India, now exceeding 1 billion people, has less than 4 000 psychiatrists. The vast majority of psychiatrists in developing countries work in large mental hospitals or in private practice. Most persons suffering from depression are treated, if at all, by general health care providers, traditional and religious healers, nongovernmental and voluntary organizations and families. The private medical sector is a major provider of general health care in many developing countries( 26). Their involvement in implementation of mental health programmes would be imperative.

Integration of mental health into existing health promotion programmes

Depression typically occurs in situations of extreme stress. There are several examples of existing public health priorities in which depression is of great relevance such as maternal and child health, reproductive and sexual health, adolescent health and violence prevention. Piggybacking mental health interventions onto these programmes would imply using existing resources and manpower and providing more comprehensive care, which reflects the broad concerns of health. Such integration can be implemented with minimal additional cost and would have the advantage of greater access to sufferers as a result of the lesser stigma than would be attached to seeking help from mental health services.

Intersectoral cooperation

In Pakistan, the Gujarkhan demonstration project involves community leaders, schoolteachers, and primary health care workers. Mass educational campaigns were launched and mental health issues introduced into the school curriculum as a means of reducing stigma as well as educating families on how best to protect their mental health (27). These initiatives can help to increase the involvement of communities in deciding and implementing solutions for their own problems. Local participation is a fundamental requisite for the success of any such programmes.

Conclusions

This article has presented evidence, focusing on the Asian region, which demonstrates the public health importance of depressive and anxiety disorders. The evidence demonstrates a close association between socioeconomic adversity and depression, an association that is present in many societies, irrespective of the stage of economic development. Inasmuch as depression is caused by stressful life circumstances, and that the poor are more likely to face such circumstances and have less resources to adequately cope with them, depression is a disease of poverty. Furthermore, depression can impair economic productivity and drains precious resources due to untreated morbidity. Thus, the answer to the question posed in the title of this article is affirmative. Depression is, like most other diseases, a disease of poverty. Donors and governments concerned about improving the health of the poor must recognize that depression typically occurs along with other physical health problems which are already the focus of attention of programmes directed at the poor.

Despite the compelling evidence of an association between depression and economic deprivation, it is important to recognize that the majority of people living even in squalid poverty remain well, cope with the daily grind of existence and do not succumb to the stressors they face in their lives. Indeed, this is the real challenge for public health researchers; to identify the protective qualities in those who do not become depressed when faced with awful economic circumstances for therein lies a potential to help and prevent mental health problems. Could informal local community social networks protect some from depression? Could religious or spiritual involvement limit alcohol abuse in some men and help prevent suicide in women and teenagers? Could microcredit schemes which are challenging the existing notions on who knows how to handle money properly help prevent some from succumbing to despair? Could being close to one’s family provide the necessary confidence and support? Could a caring local councillor’s efforts to clean up a slum help reduce the suicide rate? These are the practical research questions arising from the relationship between poverty and mental illness.

* Senior Lecturer, LondonSchool of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine and Sangath Society, Goa, India


Last update: 04 September 2006

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[irishgrl]

and from a Harvard study:
Medical News Today
Income Level May Predict Response To Depression Treatment
04 Jan 2006

Low-income people with depression are less likely to respond to treatment and more likely to be suicidal than those who have higher incomes, according to a study in the January issue of Archives of General Psychiatry, one of the JAMA/Archives journals.

Socioeconomic factors, including income, education and occupation, have long been linked to health status, illness and death. Research has shown that people with lower socioeconomic status (SES) are more likely to develop a depressive illness and that their depression is more severe than that of people higher on the SES scale. Several studies have hypothesized that socioeconomic factors, including income and education, would also affect how people respond to medications and other therapies for depression, but have ultimately proved inconclusive, according to background information in the article.

Alex Cohen, Ph.D., of Harvard Medical School, Boston, and colleagues reanalyzed two previous clinical trials funded by the National Institute of Mental Health and conducted at the University of Pittsburgh. The 248 participants were all 59 years or older and receiving antidepressant medications combined with psychotherapy. Their education levels were assessed at the beginning of the original studies. Median annual household income for their areas was obtained from the U.S. Census Bureau. Low-income was defined as less than $25,000, middle-income between $25,000 and $50,000 and high-income more than $50,000. The subjects' depressive symptoms and response to treatment were measured weekly.

When the authors controlled for demographic factors, such as age and gender, and baseline clinical characteristics, including recurrence of depression and age at onset, they found that people in areas defined as middle-income were significantly more likely to respond to treatment than those in the low-income group. High-income people were only marginally more likely to respond to treatment than middle-income residents, but as a group, high- and middle-income study participants were significantly more likely to respond than those in low-income areas.

In addition, people in low-income areas were about twice as likely as those in middle-income areas and two and a half times as likely as those in high-income tracts to be suicidal, "suggesting an inverse relationship between the median household income of the neighborhoods in which subjects resided and suicidality," the authors write.

The authors found that years of education did not affect treatment response or suicidality in this particular study group. "When the older subjects in our study came of age, economic and social success in the industrial economy was not so dependent on education," they write. "Thus, we speculate that years of education is a less accurate measure of SES in this sample."

Based on their findings, the authors "suggest that future clinical trials routinely gather data on individual income, educational degrees earned, occupation and aspects of the broader social environment such as social capital. However, to transform evidence into knowledge that will inform the treatment of depression, it is essential that future research examines all of the factors (for example, neighborhoods, stress, social support, race/ethnicity or income inequalities) that may mediate the association between SES and clinical outcomes."

(Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2006;63:50-56)

This study was supported in part by grants from the National Institute of Mental Health, Rockville, Md.

JAMA and Archives Journals
www.jamamedia.org

Article URL: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/35647.php

Main News Category: Depression
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[carrie721]

it was only a matter of time :laugh:

[irishgrl]

it was only a matter of time :laugh:
I aim to pleez :D

ps: there's more where THAT came from :nod:

[carrie721]

I aim to pleez :D

ps: there's more where THAT came from :nod:

oh, there is no doubt in my mind ...

[jannieC]

It may also be that people with depression are more likely to end up in impoverished lifestyles. Either way Mary, you have once again steered a conversation away from what the main point was [Owen Wilson is not immune to being depressed just because he is rich and famous] to "I've done this research via the internet- I am right!" ("I" being you, of course.)

In this field you can never say 100% that something is "right" or "wrong". Most people in the field believe that major depression is a physiological disorder, along with disorders like schizophrenia, OCD, Bi-polar, etc. I'm sure that there is such a thing as situational depression, but it is not the same as major depression.

This really is the last post I want to make on this. I feel badly that you have such a strong desire to argue and prove yourself right in so many areas.

[SuzeQuze]

I don't know who you're addressing here, but I can assure you that I wouldn't claim the thing if it wasn't the case. It's not something I want, and I'm not trying to misuse the word. I don't think I said "regular depression" so you might not even be talking to me after you quoted me. But.

My particular problem is not the depression so much itself, but.. I have Generalized Anxiety Disorder. I view depression as another symptom of that in a way. The effing constant severe anxiety that I feel - I'd estimate - about 90% of the day, every day about any given thing, really, makes me so tired and bummy that a point comes where it's just like crashing down, and that's where the depression occurs. It's like being on a rollercoaster and not liking any part of the ride.

Like I said.. there are some things that trigger it, the death of a family member or friend, illness, money problems, etc.. but I myself don't get "the blues". I'd love it if that was simply the case. I could probably deal with the blues a little better.

I don't claim to know psychology, even though at one point I was on the path of study towards becoming a clinical therapist. But I do know what I've been treated for and how I feel, so I'm not really interested in trying to "learn about it from somebody who really has it". I feel kind of patronized by that, really.

Yuck. I hate talking about it. My anxiety is something I usually work very hard to hide. I'll just go back over here and shut up. :shrug:

No I wasn't addressing you, sorry about that, I was sort of punctuating what you wrote and should have stated such. It's clear you know plenty about it.

The book was helpful to me anyway just reading about someone who deals with it. But I think it would be interesting to non-depressives too who want to know more about the disease.

[SuzeQuze]

Suze, Jannie, and Carrie: you're misunderstanding me (so are you Ryan). The information I got was from Mayo Clinic and similar mental health info sites. Im not making anything UP. The sites clearly state that there is a general depression (more than just "the blues") and there is "clinical depression" which is WORSE, lasts longer and has obvious signs. Suze, when you say all depression is "clinical" I understand that to mean it is diagnosable/treatable by a professional (clinician). Can you see the difference? Same term, two different uses and as such, obviously misconstrued.

Okay I misquoted "general depression" as "regular depression". I am trying to point out that all depression is clinical. And when you say "clinical depression" I think what you mean is "major depression". Clinical depression is not a diagnosis. It's just a way to describe the disease medically. So general depression and major depression are both clinical. Do you see the point I'm trying to make?

[SuzeQuze]

ok, you asked for it:

I thought this was the case too. I know when my parents were nearly working poor they were a lot more miserable than later when they had some money left over after paying bills. My one aunt who can't seem to get out of her own way financially is far less happy than the rest of them. I would definitely call her depressed.

Anyway Mary, some psychotherapy could help you see things differently, I'm not saying they don't suck because I know they do and I'm sorry about that, you just don't have to be suffering so much is all.

One thing about socioeconomics which I found interesting, rich girls are more at risk for drug use and depression because they have too much time and money on their hands. Plus all that pressure to fit in and be perfect.

Lottery winners report being no more happy than before winning. In fact sometimes they are more miserable because the money has affected their family and friends. Money doesn't really make people happy, but it DOES increase happiness when you have enough to pay your bills with a bit left over for yourself. Statistically that is all though. You don't necessarily become more happy by becoming rich, that is a fantasy.

[irishgrl]

It may also be that people with depression are more likely to end up in impoverished lifestyles. Either way Mary, you have once again steered a conversation away from what the main point was [Owen Wilson is not immune to being depressed just because he is rich and famous] to "I've done this research via the internet- I am right!" ("I" being you, of course.)

In this field you can never say 100% that something is "right" or "wrong". Most people in the field believe that major depression is a physiological disorder, along with disorders like schizophrenia, OCD, Bi-polar, etc. I'm sure that there is such a thing as situational depression, but it is not the same as major depression.

This really is the last post I want to make on this. I feel badly that you have such a strong desire to argue and prove yourself right in so many areas.
Jannie, Im not steering this thread away from anything. I was responding to YOUR blanket statement. I dont dispute that there is no "one size fits all" cause for depression, but you should avoid claims that make that same mistake.

I conceded that I was in error to assume Owen had nothing to be depressed about merely because he was rich, famous, and appeared to be happy (even to his friends and family). I dont know why he's depressed. Neither does anyone else here. Apparently many of the Ledgies suffer from depression or have family members who do and are identifying very personally with this issue. At the same time, it almost sounds as though they are getting defensive because they feel their psychoses are misunderstood.
For the record, I was not talking about any Ledgie, nor was I downplaying depression in general. At my work, the majority of my caseload is on meds for some mental-related disorder....:shrug:

And, fyi, I admit I vigorously defend my positions, but I am no worse than anyone else on this board in that respect. AND: I do and I HAVE admitted when I've been wrong.

[irishgrl]

Okay I misquoted "general depression" as "regular depression". I am trying to point out that all depression is clinical. And when you say "clinical depression" I think what you mean is "major depression". Clinical depression is not a diagnosis. It's just a way to describe the disease medically. So general depression and major depression are both clinical. Do you see the point I'm trying to make?
you are restating what I already said, which proves I understood you:

Suze, Jannie, and Carrie: you're misunderstanding me (so are you Ryan). The information I got was from Mayo Clinic and similar mental health info sites. Im not making anything UP. The sites clearly state that there is a general depression (more than just "the blues") and there is "clinical depression" which is WORSE, lasts longer and has obvious signs. Suze, when you say all depression is "clinical" I understand that to mean it is diagnosable/treatable by a professional (clinician). Can you see the difference? Same term, two different uses and as such, obviously misconstrued. (page 4 of this thread)

by the way, "clinical depression" IS worse than "general depression" as Carrie and Jannie and I all pointed out.

[irishgrl]

I thought this was the case too. I know when my parents were nearly working poor they were a lot more miserable than later when they had some money left over after paying bills. My one aunt who can't seem to get out of her own way financially is far less happy than the rest of them. I would definitely call her depressed.

Anyway Mary, some psychotherapy could help you see things differently, I'm not saying they don't suck because I know they do and I'm sorry about that, you just don't have to be suffering so much is all.

One thing about socioeconomics which I found interesting, rich girls are more at risk for drug use and depression because they have too much time and money on their hands. Plus all that pressure to fit in and be perfect.

Lottery winners report being no more happy than before winning. In fact sometimes they are more miserable because the money has affected their family and friends. Money doesn't really make people happy, but it DOES increase happiness when you have enough to pay your bills with a bit left over for yourself. Statistically that is all though. You don't necessarily become more happy by becoming rich, that is a fantasy.
I can certainly agree that having $$$ doesnt guarantee happiness, however the inverse is well documented, that the lack of money/opportunity/services (that are the result of being poor) definitely DO show a higher than normal incidence of depression related issues.

As for psychotherapy, I'll pass. There isnt anything a shrink can do to help me with my Court troubles. Until I am done, and my boy is safe, I'll just have to grit my teeth. As for my money troubles, I am working on that one paycheck at a time, just like everyone else. In the meantime, Im blessed with some of the best friends anyone could ask for--friends who have been my guardian angels (and my kittie's too! you know who you are! :angel: ) and eventually, I'll see the light at the end of the tunnel. When I need an ear, I have my mom, or my supervisor at work (!!) and I consider myself lucky to have them.

[SuzeQuze]

you are restating what I already said, which proves I understood you:



by the way, "clinical depression" IS worse than "general depression" as Carrie and Jannie and I all pointed out.

No, "major depression" is worse. Both are clinical. Yes, I'm being a brat and I think you understand me and I you and what we are arguing over at this point is semantics. Plus, we can always agree to disagree on certain points.

[irishgrl]

No, "major depression" is worse. Both are clinical. Yes, I'm being a brat and I think you understand me and I you and what we are arguing over at this point is semantics. Plus, we can always agree to disagree on certain points.
I believe "clinical depression" may also be referred to as "major depression" :shrug:

but ALL depression is "clinical" in that it is diagnosed/treated by a clinician. :shrug: (again)

did you double post?? this board is acting up.........

[SuzeQuze]

I believe "clinical depression" may also be referred to as "major depression" :shrug:

Yeah you're right which I think contributes to people's hesitation to get treatment for mild to moderate depression which can lead to a major depressive episode.



but ALL depression is "clinical" in that it is diagnosed/treated by a clinician. :shrug: (again)

Yeah, exactly.

did you double post?? this board is acting up.........

Yeah, I deleted the double and I don't think I clicked the Submit button twice in the first place.

Here's a good entry in Wikipedia on depression http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_depression

[irishgrl]

Yeah you're right which I think contributes to people's hesitation to get treatment for mild to moderate depression which can lead to a major depressive episode.




Yeah, exactly.



Yeah, I deleted the double and I don't think I clicked the Submit button twice in the first place.

Here's a good entry in Wikipedia on depression http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_depression
yes, I saw that. (notice they call it CLINICAL depression :lol: )

anyway, bottom line, I hope Owen can get the help he needs....

[JazmenFlowers]

it's one thing to infer these things, but jannie has studied the stats :shrug:
I know, right? I wouldn't necessarily argue with a graduate student who actually studies this ****, nearly has a master's degree and actual experience. :lol:

[irishgrl]

I know, right? I wouldn't necessarily argue with a graduate student who actually studies this ****, nearly has a master's degree and actual experience. :lol:
apparently Harvard thinks otherwise :shrug:

[JazmenFlowers]

apparently Harvard thinks otherwise :shrug:
that's why Harvard is for losers :mad:

[irishgrl]

that's why Harvard is for losers :mad:
Interesting blanket statement Jazz.....I have to wonder, do you speak from experience??

[JazmenFlowers]

Interesting blanket statement Jazz.....I have to wonder, do you speak from experience??
I'm flattered.

what I should have said is Ireland is for losers. that'd be more accurate.

it was actually a joke. in case you haven't noticed, it's sometimes funny to put a serious smilie alongside a joking statement. the irony is funny. but, you do have to have a sense of humor to get it.

[Rickypt]

Of course he could have fooled people a la Ryan, but it seems like it would have taken enormous amounts of energy to keep up such a charade for so long if thats the case.

Sometimes it is easier to let people think you are okay than to explain that you are depressed and what that means. And it would have taken more energy for me to deal with my family's worrying than just putting on a happy face. Really, it doesn't take much energy to smile and sound cheery, especially if there is booze available to help.

[SteveMacD]

Screw Owen Wilson for trying to take the wussy way out. I'll never watch one of his movies ever again.


















(In the interest of full disclosure, I don't think I've ever seen one of his movies anyway.)

[jannieC]

apparently Harvard thinks otherwise :shrug:

The Harvard study is just one study. I could easily pull up other peer reviewed articles that refute the Harvard one. But it's okay; that's the beauty (and the beast) of this field. Nothing is ever written in stone; it's all theory.

Anyway- no hard feelings. I'll continue doing what I'm doing and Mary will do the same- it's all good.

[gldstwmn]

what I should have said is Ireland is for losers.



Watch it motha****a! Not only do we like to drink and sing but we also like to fight...and win. :laugh:

[JazmenFlowers]

Watch it motha****a! Not only do we like to drink and sing but we also like to fight...and win. :laugh:
party at Chrissy's? y/y? :D

[JazmenFlowers]

^^^
oh, ok. party may be not so good idea.

take care. jaz.

ETA: ok, Chrissy's post that I didn't quote has been deleted. I'm not responding to my own post, tbh. :lol:

[amber]

^^^^
Shyah, like I'm gonna b'leed dat. "There goes crazy Jaz again, talking to himself! Wigged out f'in' mopkickah!"

[irishgrl]

Watch it motha****a! Not only do we like to drink and sing but we also like to fight...and win. :laugh:
preach it!

Im sorry I didnt get your joke Jazz....the mad face threw me off :shrug: oh well....

(was I ironic? only my hairdresser knows for sure.....)

[BlackWidow]

preach it!

Im sorry I didnt get your joke Jazz....the mad face threw me off :shrug: oh well....

It's all irony honey...irony.:rolleyes:

[JazmenFlowers]

^^^^
Shyah, like I'm gonna b'leed dat. "There goes crazy Jaz again, talking to himself! Wigged out f'in' mopkickah!"
mopkickah is vurry srs biz, ya know.
It's all irony honey...irony.:rolleyes:
exactly!!!111

[irishgrl]

Originally Posted by BlackWidow View Post
It's all irony honey...irony.

Originally Posted by Jazmen Flowers View Post
exactly!!!111
__________________
yeah....I wanna hide behind a cowardly excuse like "it was a JOKE and you have NO sense of humor" too. Thanks for showing the way Jazmen. You are my new idol. no ****. and no ironic smileys either.

You all can think what you want about me, but I am not a SHEEP. just because a person has a Master's Degree (is this you?) or is a Lawyer (Jason!) doesnt mean I have to agree with what they say. I am an INDEPENDENT THINKER who is perfectly comfortable riding the fringes because, quite frankly, I think society today is too intellectually homogenized. A little FYI: society doesnt advance from the status quo, it advances from the maverick ideas and the revolutionaries.

If my refusal to "go along to get along" makes me a maverick, then I am perfectly content. The rest of you can be part of the "Flat Earth" society. Cheers.

[BlackWidow]

__________________
yeah....I wanna hide behind a cowardly excuse like "it was a JOKE and you have NO sense of humor" too. Thanks for showing the way Jazmen. You are my new idol. no ****. and no ironic smileys either.

You all can think what you want about me, but I am not a SHEEP. just because a person has a Master's Degree (is this you?) or is a Lawyer (Jason!) doesnt mean I have to agree with what they say. I am an INDEPENDENT THINKER who is perfectly comfortable riding the fringes because, quite frankly, I think society today is too intellectually homogenized. A little FYI: society doesnt advance from the status quo, it advances from the maverick ideas and the revolutionaries.

If my refusal to "go along to get along" makes me a maverick, then I am perfectly content. The rest of you can be part of the "Flat Earth" society. Cheers.

Oh, SNAPS!!!!

[irishgrl]

well.......at least you responded~ it doesnt have to be by phone....

And, I LOVE YOU :nod:

[BlackWidow]

well.......at least you responded~ it doesnt have to be by phone....

Oh honey..you are on FIRE tonite!!!:lol:

[irishgrl]

Oh honey..you are on FIRE tonite!!!:lol:
yeah, and all without the benefit of counseling~
unlike most of my detractors........

[David]

Here's a good entry in Wikipedia on depression http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_depression Excellent article. I read a book many years ago called "Darkness Visible." Its author, William Styron, documented a year of his life in his 50s, a year spent suffering from a major depressive episode, one that came on quietly & stealthily but that gained immense strength & pushed Styron to the brink of suicide. "Darkness Visible" is one of the best first-person descriptions of a disorder that has been likened to the mind's near-total cognitive & emotional meltdown. If you get the chance to read this short but lacerating memoir, do so.

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/31V7VM9GDPL._AA240_.jpg

[irishgrl]

I read "Black Like Me" which chronicled a white journalist' expericences as a "black" person in the 60's.......I dont recall that it improved the plight of the black person overall...perhaps society isnt yet ready to address non-white issues?
OR, perhaps the mere acquainting of oneself with an issue doesnt necessarily guarantee a societal change...:shrug:

[Rickypt]

Mary, please....you showed that you don't know **** about depression, some of us with actual experience tried to show you the truth gently, and now you're claiming to be some kind of revolutionary. Give me a ****ing break.

I used to like you, but now I think you just like to fight. You don't care about learning. The fact that you said you were "vindicated" when Carrie agreed with something you said showed what you are all about.

[Rickypt]

yeah, and all without the benefit of counseling~
unlike most of my detractors........

A big **** you to that one, you stupid, clueless, heartless drunk.

[irishgrl]

A big **** you to that one, you stupid, clueless, heartless drunk.
ooooooo, I think you should be joining Tower, Mari, et al, after that snide bit of vitriol.

AND: I'd be interested in seeing just WHAT passes for stupid, clueles, and heartless, especially after what I've seen you post.

[carrie721]

yeah, and all without the benefit of counseling~
unlike most of my detractors........

what the fukc do you mean by that?

[irishgrl]

what the fukc do you mean by that?
dont you have an IQ above 75? Im sure you already know.

IN A NUTSHELL:

Im sick and freakin TIRED of being challenged by the mentally/emotionally frustrated members of this site who act like their **** dont stink all the while they are standing in the meds line. Give me a break. If the shoe FITS, you've got a stinky sock problem.

[Rickypt]

ooooooo, I think you should be joining Tower, Mari, et al, after that snide bit of vitriol.

**** you. only a coward would want someone banned. Only a cold and heartless person would take a slap at people who have been through therapy. You're a dumb, hateful drunk.

[Rickypt]

dont you have an IQ above 75? Im sure you already know.

IN A NUTSHELL:

Im sick and freakin TIRED of being challenged by the mentally/emotionally frustrated members of this site who act like their **** dont stink all the while they are standing in the meds line. Give me a break. If the shoe FITS, you've got a stinky sock problem.

I see your true colors....shining through


I see your true colors...and that's why.....

well

[Rickypt]

dont you have an IQ above 75? Im sure you already know.
.

Actually, it is people with low IQs who feel the need to do google research and find anything that pops up in the first 15 searches instead of making their points through logic and actual experience. :sorry:

[carrie721]

dont you have an IQ above 75? Im sure you already know.

IN A NUTSHELL:

Im sick and freakin TIRED of being challenged by the mentally/emotionally frustrated members of this site who act like their **** dont stink all the while they are standing in the meds line. Give me a break. If the shoe FITS, you've got a stinky sock problem.

that doesn't excuse or explain your ignorant comment. do you really think you're a better, stronger, smarter person because you haven't been to a counselor?

[irishgrl]

that doesn't excuse or explain your ignorant comment. do you really think you're a better, stronger, smarter person because you haven't been to a counselor?
no, but Ive never tried to make myself feel better at someone else's expense either.

so: the sad fact is: you're NOT SPECIAL
and you're NOT ALL THAT SMART EITHER.

but here on the LEDGE, you're seen as important. Good for you.

[michelle2677]

__________________
yeah....I wanna hide behind a cowardly excuse like "it was a JOKE and you have NO sense of humor" too. Thanks for showing the way Jazmen. You are my new idol. no ****. and no ironic smileys either.

You all can think what you want about me, but I am not a SHEEP. just because a person has a Master's Degree (is this you?) or is a Lawyer (Jason!) doesnt mean I have to agree with what they say. I am an INDEPENDENT THINKER who is perfectly comfortable riding the fringes because, quite frankly, I think society today is too intellectually homogenized. A little FYI: society doesnt advance from the status quo, it advances from the maverick ideas and the revolutionaries.

If my refusal to "go along to get along" makes me a maverick, then I am perfectly content. The rest of you can be part of the "Flat Earth" society. Cheers.

um. what? are you fcking kidding me? I realize that sometimes people say things that seem like "inside jokes" and people also joke around and you don't know it, but that was so obviously a joke, it's not even worth arguing about. i mean, my fcking god, did you actually GO to harvard? I'm betting not. Now had he said "[insert school mary went to] is for losers" then yeah....it would be personal. you've gone off the deep end honey, and sinking fast.

I agree with ryan in regards to you only being her to argue. and I love how you continually criticize me for comments i make, but you continue to post these posts where you're fliiiipping out.

I also wonder how it would go over if me and some of my "clique-ey" friends were lashing out at someone and then started high-5ing throughout the remainder of thread. interesting.

[carrie721]

no, but Ive never tried to make myself feel better at someone else's expense either.

so: the sad fact is: you're NOT SPECIAL
and you're NOT ALL THAT SMART EITHER.

but here on the LEDGE, you're seen as important. Good for you.

then what was the purpose for your comment?

[Rickypt]

no, but Ive never tried to make myself feel better at someone else's expense either.

so: the sad fact is: you're NOT SPECIAL
and you're NOT ALL THAT SMART EITHER.

but here on the LEDGE, you're seen as important. Good for you.

This shows what a sad coward you are. Instead of fighting on the real point, you choose passive/aggressive behavior on a serious topic like depression. You're a sad, insulting, hateful woman. And you get snaps for it. Every time I've taken on something or someone on at this board, I've been crystal clear about it. You save it all up and then slap people when they show their vulnerability.

[irishgrl]

um. what? are you fcking kidding me? I realize that sometimes people say things that seem like "inside jokes" and people also joke around and you don't know it, but that was so obviously a joke, it's not even worth arguing about. i mean, my fcking god, did you actually GO to harvard? I'm betting not. Now had he said "[insert school mary went to] is for losers" then yeah....it would be personal. you've gone off the deep end honey, and sinking fast.

I agree with ryan in regards to you only being her to argue. and I love how you continually criticize me for comments i make, but you continue to post these posts where you're fliiiipping out.

I also wonder how it would go over if me and some of my "clique-ey" friends were lashing out at someone and then started high-5ing throughout the remainder of thread. interesting.
OK. HARVARD SUCKS :mad: was a joke. sure.
(only among you P.O.U.T. members)

[irishgrl]

This shows what a sad coward you are. Instead of fighting on the real point, you choose passive/aggressive behavior on a serious topic like depression. You're a sad, insulting, hateful woman. And you get snaps for it. Every time I've taken something or someone on at this board, I've been crystal clear about it. You save it all up and then slap people when they are their most vulnerable.
OH PLEEZ......if anyone is a passive/agressive ninja, it is YOU. Give me a BREAK.

YOU are a Hypocrite of the first order. Gah.

[Rickypt]

^^You can't even fight on the merits. I'm sure I will be banned within 12 hours and you will still be around to post your drunken drivel, but at least I've pinpointed exactly why you are a sad, hateful, coward.

[bretonbanquet]

I knew there was a reason I stayed up :D

[irishgrl]

and now we get to Michelle. who says this:

m. what? are you fcking kidding me? I realize that sometimes people say things that seem like "inside jokes" and people also joke around and you don't know it, but that was so obviously a joke, it's not even worth arguing about. i mean, my fcking god, did you actually GO to harvard? I'm betting not. Now had he said "[insert school mary went to] is for losers" then yeah....it would be personal. you've gone off the deep end honey, and sinking fast.

I agree with ryan in regards to you only being her to argue. and I love how you continually criticize me for comments i make, but you continue to post these posts where you're fliiiipping out.

I also wonder how it would go over if me and some of my "clique-ey" friends were lashing out at someone and then started high-5ing throughout the remainder of thread. interesting.

first of all, why do you attack ME like Im the one that badmouthed Harvard? The answer is simple, because you have an agenda. get over yourself Michelle, I wasnt even talking to you. The comment I referred to was so NOT an inside joke. Apparently you live in an alternate universe, and thus, are not aware that what you excuse by your friends is NOT acceptable by the rest of polite society.

ps: Ryan, obviously, the term "polite society" doesnt include you.

[carrie721]

why do you attack ME like Im the one that badmouthed Harvard?

-nobody badmouthed harvard
-you still haven't addressed the question of what your ignorant comment has to do with your being sick and tired of this or that.

[Sarah]

this whole thing is just a bit ridiculous.

i'm not going to sit here and say that i think one person/side has been nice and the other is getting picked on. everybody's stirred the **** a little bit, but the difference here is.. there's a group of a couple people who have pretty much said some of the most personal **** you could ever say - "i have depression issues and have at least contemplated suicide but i'm feeling better now after some counseling" - and then another comes along and steps all over it like it's nothing, just over some personal grudge crap that is totally unrelated.

Rickypt will be the first to tell you that he and I have not shared agreement on anything really, but I think trying to belittle him and getting a low jab in there about counseling is ****ing dirty. I don't know what you guys have done to each other to hate each other so much on an apparently deeply personal level, but that was way out of line, imo. Maybe he didn't react in the nicest way, but that **** would make me fly off the handle too.

the only common thread i'm seeing on this board over and over again is you acting like you're being jumped on in every single thread. the fact of the matter is that you obviously say crap to get people wound up. it's not WHAT you say. it's HOW you say it. and you have been totally abrasive the entire time.

i have nothing against you personally.. i truly, truly don't. but freakin' a. do you stop? does it ever get tired and old to you? i've been trying to ignore most of the clique war type **** here... but when it's in every thread, it's just unavoidable.

now you can add me to your list of people to flame if you must, but, hey. i'm just sayin'.

[Rickypt]

Let's add to that Mary's two comments today putting the word FOOLING in all caps after I was trying to say that when I was depressed, people in my life didn't know. There was no FOOLING going on, that insinuates some kind of deceit. It's what I get for trying to explain something from a personal level to a stupid, heartless, drunk. My bad.

[michelle2677]

OK. HARVARD SUCKS :mad: was a joke. sure.
(only among you P.O.U.T. members)



the fact that you even remember that....is scary. I don't even remember what it stands for tbh.

[irishgrl]

um...if someone ADDED something to their original post that I didnt see, its not MY fault



again: Ryan, what justification do you have for calling me a "stupid, heartless drunk?"

do you have some sort of insider info that would indicate alcohol abuse? if not, then your comments are flagrantly derrogatory. and you should be banned sir. asap.

[irishgrl]

the fact that you even remember that....is scary. I don't even remember what it stands for tbh.
Im sure you dont. that was 4 wks ago. at least.

[carrie721]

Im sure you dont. that was 4 wks ago. at least.

more cheap shots!

you still haven't answered my question.

[irishgrl]

this whole thing is just a bit ridiculous.

i'm not going to sit here and say that i think one person/side has been nice and the other is getting picked on. everybody's stirred the **** a little bit, but the difference here is.. there's a group of a couple people who have pretty much said some of the most personal **** you could ever say - "i have depression issues and have at least contemplated suicide but i'm feeling better now after some counseling" - and then another comes along and steps all over it like it's nothing, just over some personal grudge crap that is totally unrelated.

Rickypt will be the first to tell you that he and I have not shared agreement on anything really, but I think trying to belittle him and getting a low jab in there about counseling is ****ing dirty. I don't know what you guys have done to each other to hate each other so much on an apparently deeply personal level, but that was way out of line, imo. Maybe he didn't react in the nicest way, but that **** would make me fly off the handle too.

the only common thread i'm seeing on this board over and over again is you acting like you're being jumped on in every single thread. the fact of the matter is that you obviously say crap to get people wound up. it's not WHAT you say. it's HOW you say it. and you have been totally abrasive the entire time.

i have nothing against you personally.. i truly, truly don't. but freakin' a. do you stop? does it ever get tired and old to you? i've been trying to ignore most of the clique war type **** here... but when it's in every thread, it's just unavoidable.

now you can add me to your list of people to flame if you must, but, hey. i'm just sayin'.
who are you speaking to?

[Sarah]

who are you speaking to?

on the internet, i speak to everyone with the ability to read.

edit. except for carrie, because she doesn't meet the IQ requirement.

[carrie721]

on the internet, i speak to everyone with the ability to read.

edit. except for carrie, because she doesn't meet the IQ requirement.

i can color ossum possum tho.

[irishgrl]

more cheap shots!

you still haven't answered my question.
what question?

[carrie721]

what question?

about what your comment re: not having been through counseling has to do with your being sick of how "we" act.

[irishgrl]

what question?
again, what question?

forgive me if I have a hard time believing your sincerity. I see your type of stories 24/7. sorry :shrug: Many of you deserve help, the rest are shysters, oh well.

[michelle2677]

and now we get to Michelle. who says this:



first of all, why do you attack ME like Im the one that badmouthed Harvard? The answer is simple, because you have an agenda. get over yourself Michelle, I wasnt even talking to you. The comment I referred to was so NOT an inside joke. Apparently you live in an alternate universe, and thus, are not aware that what you excuse by your friends is NOT acceptable by the rest of polite society.

ps: Ryan, obviously, the term "polite society" doesnt include you.

first of all, I didn't attack you. I came online to unwind and thought I was going to have a nice peaceful evening. But no. I see the the post where I quoted you and wondering wtf is seriously up? I mean..seriously.

I don't even know what in the hell you are talking about with an agenda. And sorry. nocando. i can't get over myself. it's just my nature to be all about myself. sorry. and...i'm lost again. first you said it was only a joke to the POUT people, now you're saying it was NOT an inside joke. I'm agreeing that it wasn't, so why did you flip out? I didn't even join the conversation earlier when i saw you didn't take it as a joke. I wasn't even going to get in the middle of it because, you're right-it wasn't even directed towards me. but when jazzy said it was a joke..it wasn't that big of a deal, you went bat****. as you always do. And as much as you'd like to think that I'm all about my friends and what they think and say, I actually DO have a mind of my own and use it time to time. like now.

But again, you can be all about andre and "ooooh, you're on fire tonight" etc and it's perfectly fine. again....interesting.

[carrie721]

again, what question?

forgive me if I have a hard time believing your sincerity. I see your type of stories 24/7. sorry :shrug: Many of you deserve help, the rest are shysters, oh well.

what are you talking about? why did you quote yourself when i answered your question? what are my types of cases?

[michelle2677]

Im sure you dont. that was 4 wks ago. at least.

what does that have to do with anything? please. go on. I want to hear this.

[irishgrl]

about what your comment re: not having been through counseling has to do with your being sick of how "we" act.
well, dear, if your Ledge behavior is any indication.(and those of you who have admitted to psych problems........has counseling helped? I wouldnt think so.........at least, Im sure your therapist would shake his/her head...

[Rickypt]

again: Ryan, what justification do you have for calling me a "stupid, heartless drunk?"

do you have some sort of insider info that would indicate alcohol abuse? if not, then your comments are flagrantly derrogatory. and you should be banned sir. asap.

You're a useless, stupid hypocrite. You take shots at people right and left on this thread, but avoid direct insults. I'm being honest--I think you're a stupid, heartless drunk. I probably will be banned. Unlike you, I don't think anyone should get banned. That's the work of children and cowards.

[irishgrl]

first of all, I didn't attack you. I came online to unwind and thought I was going to have a nice peaceful evening. But no. I see the the post where I quoted you and wondering wtf is seriously up? I mean..seriously.

I don't even know what in the hell you are talking about with an agenda. And sorry. nocando. i can't get over myself. it's just my nature to be all about myself. sorry. and...i'm lost again. first you said it was only a joke to the POUT people, now you're saying it was NOT an inside joke. I'm agreeing that it wasn't, so why did you flip out? I didn't even join the conversation earlier when i saw you didn't take it as a joke. I wasn't even going to get in the middle of it because, you're right-it wasn't even directed towards me. but when jazzy said it was a joke..it wasn't that big of a deal, you went bat****. as you always do. And as much as you'd like to think that I'm all about my friends and what they think and say, I actually DO have a mind of my own and use it time to time. like now.

But again, you can be all about andre and "ooooh, you're on fire tonight" etc and it's perfectly fine. again....interesting.
oh YES YOU DID. get over yourself. you think you are so freakin innocent because you happen to be funny. Well, I can laff with the best of them,. but I can also spot a cyber sniper. Thats YOU dear. Whatever. Ive got better things to do tomorrow than put on my Kevlar Vest to avoid you. See ya.

[AliceLover]

well, dear, if your Ledge behavior is any indication.(and those of you who have admitted to psych problems........has counseling helped? I wouldnt think so.........at least, Im sure your therapist would shake his/her head...

You make me absolutely sick to my stomach. I don't think ive ever read anything positive or encouraging from you. You are such a negative aspect of this board and its so ridiculous. I don't think Ive ever encountered a poster so cruel and mean spirited. I hope you are banned. Go join Brian's new SW board, you will be much better accepted there.

Take that nasty ass pic of Sylvester with you too.

[irishgrl]

You're a useless, stupid hypocrite. You take shots at people right and left on this thread, but avoid direct insults. I'm being honest--I think you're a stupid, heartless drunk. I probably will be banned. Unlike you, I don't think anyone should get banned. That's the work of children and cowards.
HELLOOOOOOOOOOO

Ryan is bucking for a Tower toppling. oh yes.

[carrie721]

well, dear, if your Ledge behavior is any indication.(and those of you who have admitted to psych problems........has counseling helped? I wouldnt think so.........at least, Im sure your therapist would shake his/her head...

no, personal insults are not going to fly. that does not explain why you thought it was okay to make an ignorant comment about people who have been to therapy.

[irishgrl]

You make me absolutely sick to my stomach. I don't think ive ever read anything positive or encouraging from you. You are such a negative aspect of this board and its so ridiculous. I don't think Ive ever encountered a poster so cruel and mean spirited. I hope you are banned. Go join Brian's new SW board, you will be much better accepted there.

Take that nasty ass pic of Sylvester with you too.
ah: let me be the first to offer you a TUMS. I didnt start any of this and if it bothers you, my apologies. I think if you'll read backwards, I never picked on anyone. Have a nice day.

[Sarah]

Denial much?

You practically called carrie retarded, and now you're acting like you're qualified to assess whether or not someone's treatment was effective? But you're going to make damn sure everyone who dares say something to you gets called out and banned.

[AliceLover]

ah: let me be the first to offer you a TUMS. I didnt start any of this and if it bothers you, my apologies. I think if you'll read backwards, I never picked on anyone. Have a nice day.

I didn't say you picked on anyone. I just said you make me sick to my stomach and wished you would leave.

[irishgrl]

no, personal insults are not going to fly. that does not explain why you thought it was okay to make an ignorant comment about people who have been to therapy.
I did no such thing. go back and re-read. I was the target, not the arrow.

good grief. you clique members cant acknowledge your own culpability can you?

[Rickypt]

ah: let me be the first to offer you a TUMS. I didnt start any of this and if it bothers you, my apologies. I think if you'll read backwards, I never picked on anyone. Have a nice day.

Actually, you started all of it with your ignorant and insulting comments about depressed people and those who have had therapy. Don't even try to shake off that responsibility.

P.S. Aren't you a little old to be freaked out about cliques?

[buckymcnix]

yay -
mary's about to pass 7000 posts.

:eek:

[carrie721]

I did no such thing. go back and re-read. I was the target, not the arrow.

good grief. you clique members cant acknowledge your own culpability can you?

yes, your snotty comment "all without the help of counseling" wasn't aimed at anyone, was it?

[Rickypt]

yay -
mary's about to pass 7000 posts.

:eek:

:D

And she'll have everyone banned so the last remaining person on the Ledge can be she---someone who doesn't even like Fleetwood Mac. :laugh:

[buckymcnix]

:D

And she'll have everyone banned so the last remaining person on the Ledge can be she---someone who doesn't even like Fleetwood Mac. :laugh:

get out - really?
:shrug:

doesn't like fm>>?
that does seem strange. . .


oh well -
anybody wanna be in my new clique "The Dark" ?
:thumbsup: cool name huh?:woohoo:

we argue fairly with no passive aggressive behaviour to lure others to their demise.
we get mad but then work it out.
we have a potluck everyother thursday. - i bring pot salad - not to be confused with potato salad.

[irishgrl]

Actually, you started all of it with your ignorant and insulting comments about depressed people and those who have had therapy. Don't even try to shake off that responsibility.

P.S. Aren't you a little old to be freaked out about cliques?
I made a comment about Owen not having anything to be depressed about because he was rich/famous/etc......I also said I was wrong for doing so. what more do you want?

[carrie721]

I made a comment about Owen not having anything to be depressed about because he was rich/famous/etc......I also said I was wrong for doing so. what more do you want?

and then you made a completely inappropriate comment implying that you are mentally/emotionally superior because you've never "needed" therapy. that's pure ignorance.

[Sarah]

i bring pot salad - not to be confused with potato salad.

count me in. :wavey:

[irishgrl]

get out - really?
:shrug:

doesn't like fm>>?
that does seem strange. . .


oh well -
anybody wanna be in my new clique "The Dark" ?
:thumbsup: cool name huh?:woohoo:

we argue fairly with no passive aggressive behaviour to lure others to their demise.
we get mad but then work it out.
we have a potluck everyother thursday. - i bring pot salad - not to be confused with potato salad.
no. ....................(ten characters)

and: what makes you think I dont like FM?? Ive been a fan since 1976. What more do you want?

[gldstwmn]

^^^
oh, ok. party may be not so good idea.

take care. jaz.

ETA: ok, Chrissy's post that I didn't quote has been deleted. I'm not responding to my own post, tbh. :lol:

Sorry Jaz. I was slipping a little too far off into the macbre for my own comfort. I shared too much. :o

[irishgrl]

and then you made a completely inappropriate comment implying that you are mentally/emotionally superior because you've never "needed" therapy. that's pure ignorance.
Um NO, I did no such thing. All I said was, I havent GONE to a therapist, nor do I take meds. Would you like to make an issue of THAT?????? PUH LEEZ.

[gldstwmn]

Excellent article. I read a book many years ago called "Darkness Visible." Its author, William Styron, documented a year of his life in his 50s, a year spent suffering from a major depressive episode, one that came on quietly & stealthily but that gained immense strength & pushed Styron to the brink of suicide. "Darkness Visible" is one of the best first-person descriptions of a disorder that has been likened to the mind's near-total cognitive & emotional meltdown. If you get the chance to read this short but lacerating memoir, do so.

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/31V7VM9GDPL._AA240_.jpg

Thank you. I will check it out.

[carrie721]

Um NO, I did no such thing. All I said was, I havent GONE to a therapist, nor do I take meds. Would you like to make an issue of THAT?????? PUH LEEZ.

oh, so your comment was a complete non sequitur? or did you just feel like sharing random facts about yourself? please, yourself.

[Rickypt]

Um NO, I did no such thing. All I said was, I havent GONE to a therapist, nor do I take meds. Would you like to make an issue of THAT?????? PUH LEEZ.

Jesus ****ing christ.

yeah, and all without the benefit of counseling~
unlike most of my detractors........
__________________

[Rickypt]

Im sick and freakin TIRED of being challenged by the mentally/emotionally frustrated members of this site who act like their **** dont stink all the while they are standing in the meds line.

[irishgrl]

you all wear your phobias like a badge. Well good for you. Who is really without sin?


:shrug: :shrug:

[carrie721]

you all wear your phobias like a badge. Well good for you. Who is really without sin?

quit avoiding owning up to your own bull**** by machine-gunning the rest of us with tired old pop psychology.

[Sarah]

you all wear your phobias like a badge. Well good for you. Who is really without sin?

say what? :shrug:

[buckymcnix]

Um NO, I did no such thing. All I said was, I havent GONE to a therapist, nor do I take meds. Would you like to make an issue of THAT?????? PUH LEEZ.

Jesus ****ing christ.

yeah, and all without the benefit of counseling~
unlike most of my detractors........
__________________

Im sick and freakin TIRED of being challenged by the mentally/emotionally frustrated members of this site who act like their **** dont stink all the while they are standing in the meds line.

you all wear your phobias like a badge. Well good for you. Who is really without sin?


well what it looks like from here . . .
you say that you said one thing
ryan quotes what you said showing you said something else.
you respond with you "wear your phobias like a badge?" and "who is w/out sin?"
wtf does that mean.

what is it that you think is his "phobia" for quoting you saying something you say you didnt'.?

[irishgrl]

quit avoiding owning up to your own bull**** by machine-gunning the rest of us with tired old pop psychology.
I didnt proffer any bull****. as for tired psychology, perhaps you'd better get in touch wiht Jannie. After all, she thinks poverty has no bearing on depresion. and she can prove it.

(unfortunately not by personal experience which would have been most demostrative.)

[LiamMcConville]

Mary.

Let me start off as saying I LIKE YOU. We've shared great conversations through PM's and I very much enjoy your character.

Unfortunately, I've seen a side of you that makes me quite sick. I've read every post of this thread, up until now, and am very upset with the way you've acted.

In most situations, with two sides, you tend to pick the side against the commonly held view.

I remember the first time I saw this, was on an old thread on Seven Wonders where Legion asked for help with one of his employees, who was accused of sexually harassing a woman who could not be taken seriously. You picked her side immediately, defended her stand point till the end, until we found out she'd been arrested.

I can appreciate you arguing the other side, but here is where you make your biggest mistake:

9 times out of 10, you're the only person to defend your standpoint. There is rarely someone backing you up, because most other people disagree with you.

Since most people are against you're views, more than one person begin to argue with you. As soon as more than one or two people start disagreeing, you start with low blows.

Belittling people's clinical disorders (as shown in this thread) and continually say mean, spiteful things, even when these people have backed down, or apologized. This is not the way to handle a situation where you are the minority.

People can only tolerate your jabs for only so long. Many people in this thread have had enough of your act. It upsets me that just because many people disagree with you, you feel you have to become an awful person to "defend your views."

Its truly disgusting Mary. I thought you were better than this.

[carrie721]

I didnt proffer any bull****. as for tired psychology, perhaps you'd better get in touch wiht Jannie. After all, she thinks poverty has no bearing on depresion. and she can prove it.

(unfortunately not by personal experience which would have been most demostrative.)

don't talk **** about people who aren't here. jannie has done nothing to you except disagree with you in a more respectful manner than you have ever used with her. i'm sure you don't know anything about jannie's past and present financial situation (and neither do i, i'm not implying anything here), so this is just you jumping to more conclusions.

and as for being able to prove it? she never said that. in fact, she said the complete opposite: that the entire field of psychology is based on theories and that nothing is written in stone. one researcher offers one conclusion for a set of data and another researcher can offer a completely different conclusion. this is just another cheap attack from you - against someone who isn't even here, for god's sake.

[buckymcnix]

I didnt proffer any bull****. as for tired psychology, perhaps you'd better get in touch wiht Jannie. After all, she thinks poverty has no bearing on depresion. and she can prove it.

(unfortunately not by personal experience which would have been most demostrative.)

why would you say that about jannie? she tried to have a discussion with you and from what i read, she was extremely kind and went out of her way to not seem like she was attacking anyone that she disagreed with.
she seems very sweet.
you just wanna throw her under you non-logical-argument bus?

and are you saying that Jannie's studies and learning mean less because she isn't poor?

[irishgrl]

Liam, I can appreciate your opinion, but I'll point you in the direction of going back in this thread. What you dont know, is that there is a very real clique on this board, and if anyone happens to spout a counter opinion, they are immediately vilified. I want you to go back several pages on this board and see who picked on who first.

FYI: I dont CARE who agrees with me. I dont need anyone else to jump on board and make me feel like I am importand or special. (unlike the P.O.U.T. clique)

If I hold an opinion, I hold it for a reason. and not because its something I found out at 25 yrs old...........but because I realised after 45+ years of living that is true, and no amount of acrimony from 25-somethings (or 35-somethings for that matter) will change it. So, go ahead and be "disappointed" but I've yet to find any iota of sympathy for me or my issues on this board(with minor exceptions), so why should I return the favor?

[irishgrl]

HELLOOOOOOO
give me a break....... I havent been disrespectful to Jannie at all. We agree to Disagree as far as I know. Do you presume to speak for her??????

[Rickypt]

HELLOOOOOOO
give me a break....... I havent been disrespectful to Jannie at all. We agree to Disagree as far as I know. Do you presume to speak for her??????\\

as for tired psychology, perhaps you'd better get in touch wiht Jannie.

[carrie721]

HELLOOOOOOO
give me a break....... I havent been disrespectful to Jannie at all. We agree to Disagree as far as I know. Do you presume to speak for her??????

no. in fact in my post i expressly stated that i wasn't doing so. but many who have witnessed your exchanges with her would probably agree with me. you are extremely disrespectful and derisive to her.

[LiamMcConville]

I know there's a clique Mary. There's cliques everywhere there are groups of more than two people. I don't mind them at all, they don't seem to get in my way at any point.

If that group, the "POUT clique" as you so lovingly describe them, disagree with you, then argue with them. Disagree with them. Have an intelligent debate on the topic. I don't believe anyone in this thread has said anything rude to you, until you insulted their disease/disorders/choice of treatment.

Why should sympathy BE shown? There is truly no need for sympathy in a debate, just a basic understanding of the other sides arguments. You don't need to be sympathetic of the other viewpoint, but there is absolutely NO reason to bash someone because they believe in something you don't.


Liam, I can appreciate your opinion, but I'll point you in the direction of going back in this thread. What you dont know, is that there is a very real clique on this board, and if anyone happens to spout a counter opinion, they are immediately vilified. I want you to go back several pages on this board and see who picked on who first.

FYI: I dont CARE who agrees with me. I dont need anyone else to jump on board and make me feel like I am importand or special. (unlike the P.O.U.T. clique)

If I hold an opinion, I hold it for a reason. and not because its something I found out at 25 yrs old...........but because I realised after 45+ years of living that is true, and no amount of acrimony from 25-somethings (or 35-somethings for that matter) will change it. So, go ahead and be "disappointed" but I've yet to find any iota of sympathy for me or my issues on this board(with minor exceptions), so why should I return the favor?

[irishgrl]

fyi: being the only person to defend a viewpoint is not necessarily a mistake....

[carrie721]

fyi: being the only person to defend a viewpoint is not necessarily a mistake....

liam didn't say it was. he said that when you are the only person to defend a viewpoint, you resort to petulant tactics in an attempt to get your point across.

[Kelly]

**** you. only a coward would want someone banned. Only a cold and heartless person would take a slap at people who have been through therapy. You're a dumb, hateful drunk.

Thanks for saying exactly what I was thinking. :angel:

[irishgrl]

I know there's a clique Mary. There's cliques everywhere there are groups of more than two people. I don't mind them at all, they don't seem to get in my way at any point.

If that group, the "POUT clique" as you so lovingly describe them, disagree with you, then argue with them. Disagree with them. Have an intelligent debate on the topic. I don't believe anyone in this thread has said anything rude to you, until you insulted their disease/disorders/choice of treatment.

Why should sympathy BE shown? There is truly no need for sympathy in a debate, just a basic understanding of the other sides arguments. You don't need to be sympathetic of the other viewpoint, but there is absolutely NO reason to bash someone because they believe in something you don't.
fine. I direct you to Jazzy's comments after page 4. previous to that, Jannie, Carrie, Suze and I actually WERE having an adult discussion. After that, Jazzy, Ryan (RickyPT), and various others...chose to take pot shots at me. Why? because I advocated an unpopular view. think about it.

[buckymcnix]

fyi: being the only person to defend a viewpoint is not necessarily a mistake....

you are correct. it is not necessarily a mistake to be the only person defending a point of view.



but sometimes it is just someone being stubborn and unwilling to admit their own mistakes and callousness.

George Bush still thinks it was a good idea to have gone to iraq. This viewpoint flys in the face of all evidence to the contrary.

see>?

[irishgrl]

liam didn't say it was. he said that when you are the only person to defend a viewpoint, you resort to petulant tactics in an attempt to get your point across.
interesting that you would latch onto that Carrie.......you being so righteous and all


oh and Kelly, what makes YOU an expert on cyber alcoholism? besides Ryan's assertions that is???? Thanks for chiming in and giving us the benefit of your expertise on alcoholism. Sheesh.

[carrie721]

interesting that you would latch onto that Carrie.......you being so righteous and all

i didn't latch onto anything. you misunderstood what he said and i clarified. kind of like i'm doing now.

[irishgrl]

you are correct. it is not necessarily a mistake to be the only person defending a point of view.



but sometimes it is just someone being stubborn and unwilling to admit their own mistakes and callousness.

George Bush still thinks it was a good idea to have gone to iraq. This viewpoint flys in the face of all evidence to the contrary.

see>?
ok, granted, but at this point, Im not convinced that anything I've seen/written etc has been wrong. Im still waiting. I admit, I may have stepped on a few toes, but no one goes out of their way to apologise to me when they step on MY toes...

[irishgrl]

i didn't latch onto anything. you misunderstood what he said and i clarified. kind of like i'm doing now.
for the record: I didnt misunderstand anything... I know full well how Im regarded by those of you in the clique.

[buckymcnix]

liam didn't say it was. he said that when you are the only person to defend a viewpoint, you resort to petulant tactics in an attempt to get your point across.

interesting that you would latch onto that Carrie.......you being so righteous and all


see - you did it again.
you proved what liam said right there.
you resorted to insults -"you being so righteous and all" - when carrie used logic to make her point.

[Sarah]

ok, granted, but at this point, Im not conviced that anything I've seen/written etc has been wrong. Im still waiting. I admit, I may have stepped on a few toes, but no one goes out of their way to apologise to me when they step on MY toes...

maybe because you act like your toes are stepped on in practically every thread, all the time, and it always turns into this crap on a less-severe level?

[bretonbanquet]

fyi: being the only person to defend a viewpoint is not necessarily a mistake....

Yeah, but if you stand out in the rain, you're going to get wet. Especially when your umbrella is so full of holes, it's effing scary :shrug:

[Rickypt]

Mary, I will step back for one moment and then exit this thread. I think you are paranoid. No one ganged up on you. You expressed some bold opinions about depression and suicide right off the bat. You didn't ask questions or admit that you weren't sure. You did what you always do--you stated bold opinions.

What followed is people who actually know about this stuff based on our experience took time to correct you. I didn't do it to help you learn. I know from experience that you don't care about learning. I did it to correct the record for people who were reading the thread.

In return, you did a half-ass mea culpa about one comment you made, but continued to dig in your heels. You twice insulted me with your posts about how I had somehow "fooled" my family and friends when that wasn't the point of my story, nor was it the truth.

As for the poverty/depression thing, I actually thought you had valid points. But you got all caught up in Jaz's comment which was so obviously a joke. Please, you are known for posting the internet research articles. A little ribbing about that should be expected and you should be adult enough to have a laugh.

You then went on to make an insulting dig about people who have been in therapy, and even though Carrie has spent about 2 hours trying to get you to talk about it, you've done nothing but avoid and deny.

No one posted their story to get sympathy. We did it because we know that depression is completely misunderstood and we wanted to do the best we could to educate a bit.

Now we learn that none of this is really about the issue, but about your problem with "cliques." It would be much better if you would just address your problems directly instead of going the route you did in this thread. Just be direct. I don't like you--I think you are heartless and clueless. I don't need to pick some opposing side on an important issue like depression in order to make that point. Why don't you just do the same. People would probably respect you more.

[carrie721]

for the record: I didnt misunderstand anything... I know full well how Im regarded by those of you in the clique.

wait, who do you think is in the clique? :laugh: anyone who disagrees with you? so you think liam, who made his points in a shockingly rational and even-handed manner for a person his age, has ulterior motives here?

[LiamMcConville]

fine. I direct you to Jazzy's comments after page 4. previous to that, Jannie, Carrie, Suze and I actually WERE having an adult discussion. After that, Jazzy, Ryan (RickyPT), and various others...chose to take pot shots at me. Why? because I advocated an unpopular view. think about it.


I went back and read. Jazzy said something sarcastic, which you took to heart. This is the only thing Ryan said during those pages of banter between you and Jazzy:

Mary, please....you showed that you don't know **** about depression, some of us with actual experience tried to show you the truth gently, and now you're claiming to be some kind of revolutionary. Give me a ****ing break.

He had a right to be upset, that someone was trying to put a disorder that he survived in a "nutshell," without personally experiencing the disease. While he may have been a little rude, your outbursts are in no way substantiated by this comment.

His next comment was:

I used to like you, but now I think you just like to fight. You don't care about learning. The fact that you said you were "vindicated" when Carrie agreed with something you said showed what you are all about.

At the most, he was STRONGLY disagreeing with you. Until he saw that you took a cheap shot: "yeah, and all without the benefit of counseling~
unlike most of my detractors........"

If you hadn't said that, no one would've taken cheap shots at you. It is awful that you would ever say something about a treatment of a disease or disorder that actually worked for someone.

If you fought off cancer without chemo-therapy, does that mean people who did use it are lesser people? I think not.

[irishgrl]

Yeah, but if you stand out in the rain, you're going to get wet. Especially when your umbrella is so full of holes, it's effing scary :shrug:
I can stand out in the rain, with or without an umbrella. Im certainly NOT going to act like my feelings dont matter when everyone else is so busy saying THEIRS do. Sorry.

I havent said or done anything any worse than anyone else on this board. And, actually, Ive been a whole lot more circumspect.

[carrie721]

And, actually, Ive been a whole lot more circumspect.

wow. that just shows how completely you lack any self awareness. to say that you have been more cautious with your words than the rest of us in this thread ... it blows my mind.

[Rickypt]

Ryan (RickyPT), and various others...chose to take pot shots at me. Why? because I advocated an unpopular view. think about it.

Okay, that's what I get for posting something calm before reading newer posts.

For ****'s sake, I posted about my own depression and suicidal thoughts in response to what you had to say. Those weren't pot shots. I didn't call you a hateful drunk, which you are, until you insulted people in therapy.

It is really not worth arguing with you because you never respond to what anyone actually says and immediately go into victim mode.

[buckymcnix]

ok, granted, but at this point, Im not convinced that anything I've seen/written etc has been wrong. Im still waiting. I admit, I may have stepped on a few toes, but no one goes out of their way to apologise to me when they step on MY toes...

ryan quoted exactly what you said that was wrong and mean.
and in very big letters i must say.
stepping on toes is when you accidentally offend someone.
it seems quite clear you are aiming for people's hearts and it isn't by accident.

and you can't keep screaming "it's a clique, it's a clique" and "i am the victim here" and expect people to believe it. I am in no clique. there are people that i know better than others. there are some i communicate with beyond the ledge. but nobody i know, on the ledge or otherwise, can make me give up my opinion to be in on some group-think. I don't work that way and i feel most people on here don't work that way.
it is NOT just this perceived clique that are responding to you.
the temperature of this discussion went up because you became inflamatory.
own it.
it is yours.

[Rickypt]

I went back and read. Jazzy said something sarcastic, which you took to heart. This is the only thing Ryan said during those pages of banter between you and Jazzy:

Mary, please....you showed that you don't know **** about depression, some of us with actual experience tried to show you the truth gently, and now you're claiming to be some kind of revolutionary. Give me a ****ing break.

He had a right to be upset, that someone was trying to put a disorder that he survived in a "nutshell," without personally experiencing the disease. While he may have been a little rude, your outbursts are in no way substantiated by this comment.

His next comment was:

I used to like you, but now I think you just like to fight. You don't care about learning. The fact that you said you were "vindicated" when Carrie agreed with something you said showed what you are all about.

At the most, he was STRONGLY disagreeing with you. Until he saw that you took a cheap shot: "yeah, and all without the benefit of counseling~
unlike most of my detractors........"

If you hadn't said that, no one would've taken cheap shots at you. It is awful that you would ever say something about a treatment of a disease or disorder that actually worked for someone.

If you fought off cancer without chemo-therapy, does that mean people who did use it are lesser people? I think not.

You are extremely impressive and your analysis is spot-on.

[irishgrl]

Mary, I will step back for one moment and then exit this thread. I think you are paranoid. No one ganged up on you. You expressed some bold opinions about depression and suicide right off the bat. You didn't ask questions or admit that you weren't sure. You did what you always do--you stated bold opinions.

What followed is people who actually know about this stuff based on our experience took time to correct you. I didn't do it to help you learn. I know from experience that you don't care about learning. I did it to correct the record for people who were reading the thread.

In return, you did a half-ass mea culpa about one comment you made, but continued to dig in your heels. You twice insulted me with your posts about how I had somehow "fooled" my family and friends when that wasn't the point of my story, nor was it the truth.

As for the poverty/depression thing, I actually thought you had valid points. But you got all caught up in Jaz's comment which was so obviously a joke. Please, you are known for posting the internet research articles. A little ribbing about that should be expected and you should be adult enough to have a laugh.

You then went on to make an insulting dig about people who have been in therapy, and even though Carrie has spent about 2 hours trying to get you to talk about it, you've done nothing but avoid and deny.

No one posted their story to get sympathy. We did it because we know that depression is completely misunderstood and we wanted to do the best we could to educate a bit.

Now we learn that none of this is really about the issue, but about your problem with "cliques." It would be much better if you would just address your problems directly instead of going the route you did in this thread. Just be direct. I don't like you--I think you are heartless and clueless. I don't need to pick some opposing side on an important issue like depression in order to make that point. Why don't you just do the same. People would probably respect you more.
Oh MY GOD. I cant believe what I just read. You actually think you were "helping" people???? Whatever.

Liam, I like you too, but you are taking this too personal..I didnt attack you, and I dont know anything about you, but yet you are acting like I shot an arrow into your heart. Give me a break!

Ryan called me a "drunk" in several posts, all without any provocation. I didnt share any alcohol related stories (like other Ledgies in the past...in fact, alcohol consumption wasnt thot to be a problem until "now".....

Of course, I didnt realize he was so self righteous. Now I do. Pardon me.

[Sarah]

omfg.

google "reality".

[LiamMcConville]

Oh MY GOD. I cant believe what I just read. You actually think you were "helping" people???? Whatever.

Liam, I like you too, but you are taking this too personal..I didnt attack you, and I dont know anything about you, but yet you are acting like I shot an arrow into your heart. Give me a break!

Ryan called me a "drunk" in several posts, all without any provocation. I didnt share any alcohol related stories (like other Ledgies in the past...in fact, alcohol consumption wasnt thot to be a problem until "now".....

Of course, I didnt realize he was so self righteous. Now I do. Pardon me.

Mary,

I'm asking you friend to friend. Please take a step back for a minute. Assess the best way out of this. Apologize for saying rude things, but still support your arguments? Or continue to say rude things, and dig your grave further? Its up to you.

No Mary. I went back and read this entire thread twice. He did NOT say ANYTHING inadvertently rude to you, until you said "yeah, and all without the benefit of counseling~
unlike most of my detractors........."

Please feel free to go back and check.

If Ryan is self righteous for supporting his views, you're also self righteous, and lets be honest, so am I, and everyone else who has stated their opinions/and or facts in this thread.

[bretonbanquet]

I can stand out in the rain, with or without an umbrella. Im certainly NOT going to act like my feelings dont matter when everyone else is so busy saying THEIRS do. Sorry.

I havent said or done anything any worse than anyone else on this board. And, actually, Ive been a whole lot more circumspect.

I didn't say you couldn't. And no need to apologise. To me.

On the second point, I must respectfully disagree, barring one person's deliberately forthright comments.

[irishgrl]

Mary,

I'm asking you friend to friend. Please take a step back for a minute. Assess the best way out of this. Apologize for saying rude things, but still support your arguments? Or continue to say rude things, and dig your grave further? Its up to you.

No Mary. I went back and read this entire thread twice. He did NOT say ANYTHING inadvertently rude to you, until you said "yeah, and all without the benefit of counseling~
unlike most of my detractors........."

Please feel free to go back and check.

If Ryan is self righteous for supporting his views, you're also self righteous, and lets be honest, so am I, and everyone else who has stated their opinions/and or facts in this thread.
perhaps......I'll just leave it at that.

I can admit when I'm wrong but I dont see it here. Sorry. However, in the interests of harmony, I'll just let it go.

[irishgrl]

I didn't say you couldn't. And no need to apologise. To me.

On the second point, I must respectfully disagree, barring one person's deliberately forthright comments.
Im not sure which person you're referring to, but Im not sure it really matters in the grand scheme of things..

[carrie721]

perhaps......I'll just leave it at that.

I can admit when I'm wrong but I dont see it here. Sorry. However, in the interests of harmony, I'll just let it go.

let the record (since you're so fond of speaking on it) show that you're "letting it go" without properly addressing why you thought it was okay to deride people who have been through therapy and take pot shots at people left and right - even those who aren't here.

[buckymcnix]

omfg.

google "reality".

ohhh - thats the clique i wanna be in

the reality clique.
:woohoo:

[Sarah]

ohhh - thats the clique i wanna be in

the reality clique.
:woohoo:

the application process is strenuous. are you sure you can hang? ;)

[Rickypt]

Oh MY GOD. I cant believe what I just read. You actually think you were "helping" people???? Whatever.



Why else would I post about a horrible time in my life? You think I did it to take a shot at you? This thread is getting too bizarre.

[buckymcnix]

the application process is strenuous. are you sure you can hang? ;)

hellooooooo

i am bringing the pot salad . . . :thumbsup:
i expect a little special treatment in the application process.:angel:

[irishgrl]

let the record (since you're so fond of speaking on it) show that you're "letting it go" without properly addressing why you thought it was okay to deride people who have been through therapy and take pot shots at people left and right - even those who aren't here.
Carrie: why are you continuing this further? I was willing to let it go, but you felt you had to chime in and jab me with your snide remark :shrug: If Im letting it go, Im letting it go. not because Im trying to duck anything, but because I feel its in the best interests of the board.

If you feel otherwise, please feel free to PM me and we can continue this on our own nickle so to speak.

[carrie721]

hellooooooo

i am bringing the pot salad . . . :thumbsup:
i expect a little special treatment in the application process.:angel:

i'll bring the macaroni sal -

oh wait.

nevermind. :laugh:

[Sarah]

This thread is getting too bizarre.

word on that bird. i've been following with interest, but some stuff just doesn't add up.

at any rate... i understood why you shared your story, and i appreciated it. i also understand why you took offense at "fooled". this entire episode just reinforces your correctness about just smiling and nodding, because it's much too difficult to explain how you feel to people who can't understand or who just don't really give a damn, to be honest.

[carrie721]

Carrie: why are you continuing this further? I was willing to let it go, but you felt you had to chime in and jab me with your snide remark :shrug: If Im letting it go, Im letting it go. not because Im trying to duck anything, but because I feel its in the best interests of the board.

If you feel otherwise, please feel free to PM me and we can continue this on our own nickle so to speak.

i wasn't being snide, i was pointing out that you have repeatedly dodged my question or answered it with an insult.

[irishgrl]

Why else would I post about a horrible time in my life? You think I did it to take a shot at you? This thread is getting too bizarre.
perhaps you'd care to explain why you continually refer to me as "drunk?"

do you have some sort of privileged information? if not, then you are obviously engaging in rule-breaking antics.

[LiamMcConville]

perhaps......I'll just leave it at that.

I can admit when I'm wrong but I dont see it here. Sorry. However, in the interests of harmony, I'll just let it go.

You aren't wrong for defending your beliefs, you are wrong for belittling and being incredibly mean to those who shared their personal experiences to better our understanding of this situation.

[Sarah]

dingdingding

round 2: fight!

[irishgrl]

i wasn't being snide, i was pointing out that you have repeatedly dodged my question or answered it with an insult.
and yet, you STILL avoid dealing with me directly. whatever.

[irishgrl]

You aren't wrong for defending your beliefs, you are wrong for belittling and being incredibly mean to those who shared their personal experiences to better our understanding of this situation.
ah, but when they belittle me, I am supposed to take it? This all started with Jazzy who "said" he was joking......yeah right. he was being his usual catty self. from there, it just went downhill. Im not perfect. when someone attacks me, I fire back. go figure.

[bretonbanquet]

Im not sure which person you're referring to, but Im not sure it really matters in the grand scheme of things..

You're not? I figured it was obvious :shrug: But I'll not tax you any further :)

[carrie721]

and yet, you STILL avoid dealing with me directly. whatever.

how have i avoided dealing with you directly? i have been trying to get an answer out of you for hours. why should i think that if i PM you i'm going to get any different?

[LiamMcConville]

perhaps you'd care to explain why you continually refer to me as "drunk?"

do you have some sort of privileged information? if not, then you are obviously engaging in rule-breaking antics.

Let me just say again, he only made those comments after you made a sarcastic remark about people who were helped with their problem by taking advantage of therapy.

[michelle2677]

well.


i'm getting hungry. i have some popcorn that will go swell with my diet.

[carrie721]

ah, but when they belittle me, I am supposed to take it? This all started with Jazzy who "said" he was joking......yeah right. he was being his usual catty self. from there, it just went downhill. Im not perfect. when someone attacks me, I fire back. go figure.

dude ... the harvard comment was a joke ... seriously. stevie wonder could see it.

[LiamMcConville]

ah, but when they belittle me, I am supposed to take it? This all started with Jazzy who "said" he was joking......yeah right. he was being his usual catty self. from there, it just went downhill. Im not perfect. when someone attacks me, I fire back. go figure.

Jazzmyne did not belittle you. If you feel she did, you take that up with her in Private Messages. You don't go after Ryan and Carrie's treatment methods.

[Sarah]

seriously. stevie wonder could see it.

that was a pretty good joke for a reeree. did you make it up by yourself? :laugh:

<3

[michelle2677]

^^jazzy's a dude ;)

[Rickypt]

perhaps you'd care to explain why you continually refer to me as "drunk?"

do you have some sort of privileged information? if not, then you are obviously engaging in rule-breaking antics.

Easy, because you pissed me off and I've always thought you were a drunk and you gave me an opportunity to say it. Do I think it helped me with the debate? No. Do I think it was mature of me? No. Do I feel good about saying it after enduring your nasty, hateful comments? Absolutely!

I'm not sure I'll be banned. My understanding from the incidents a couple weeks ago is that those who were supposedly "provoked" into making insults were given a pass. We'll see how this one plays out. I maintain that only a coward would worry about getting someone banned. I don't think you should be banned for being a nasty hateful person who took shots at people in this thread. :shrug:

[carrie721]

that was a pretty good joke for a reeree. did you make it up by yourself? :laugh:

<3

alls i do is watch my stories all day, i couldn't come up with somethin clever like that :D

[irishgrl]

You aren't wrong for defending your beliefs, you are wrong for belittling and being incredibly mean to those who shared their personal experiences to better our understanding of this situation.
but they can call me "drunk" for no reason? what about the personal experiences I'VE shared? Dont bother to answer. Nobody here gives a ****. Everyone ELSE is perfect and only THEY have suffered. Whatever.

[Rickypt]

how have i avoided dealing with you directly? i have been trying to get an answer out of you for hours.

No ****. I've never seen such calm discipline as you (and Liam) have shown tonight.

[carrie721]

but they can call me "drunk" for no reason? what about the personal experiences I'VE shared? Dont bother to answer. Nobody here gives a ****. Everyone ELSE is perfect and only THEY have suffered. Whatever.

it intrigues me that you keep saying "they" ... only ryan did. one person. he. and he's owned up to it and explained why he said it. there is no big bad "they" that's going around calling you a drunk.

[carrie721]

No ****. I've never seen such calm discipline as you (and Liam) have shown tonight.

thanks ry :xoxo:

[irishgrl]

Let me just say again, he only made those comments after you made a sarcastic remark about people who were helped with their problem by taking advantage of therapy.
no. he's been saying that for weeks. please see the Penguin thread. IMO, Ryan WANTS to be banned, and Im an easy target.

[irishgrl]

it intrigues me that you keep saying "they" ... only ryan did. one person. he. and he's owned up to it and explained why he said it. there is no big bad "they" that's going around calling you a drunk.
really? I didnt see his reason.......perhaps you'd care to elaborate.....???

[carrie721]

really? I didnt see his reason.......perhaps you'd care to elaborate.....???

http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showpost.php?p=717389&postcount=233

what more do you want :shrug:

[Rickypt]

really? I didnt see his reason.......perhaps you'd care to elaborate.....???

It's right above on this thread.

[irishgrl]

Easy, because you pissed me off and I've always thought you were a drunk and you gave me an opportunity to say it. Do I think it helped me with the debate? No. Do I think it was mature of me? No. Do I feel good about saying it after enduring your nasty, hateful comments? Absolutely!

I'm not sure I'll be banned. My understanding from the incidents a couple weeks ago is that those who were supposedly "provoked" into making insults were given a pass. We'll see how this one plays out. I maintain that only a coward would worry about getting someone banned. I don't think you should be banned for being a nasty hateful person who took shots at people in this thread. :shrug:
I didnt bait YOU, you insulted ME. How dare you try to turn this around as if it were somehow MY fault~ whatever.

Go ahead and call me drunk. Ill just chalk it up to your mental condition. ok?

when you can say you're sorry, so will I.

[carrie721]

I didnt bait YOU, you insulted ME. How dare you try to turn this around as if it were somehow MY fault~ whatever.

Go ahead and call me drunk. Ill just chalk it up to your mental condition. ok?

when you can say you're sorry, so will I.

wow. :shocked:

[irishgrl]

http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showpost.php?p=717389&postcount=233

what more do you want :shrug:
this was like the last post I read before seeing yours.......so I guess I find it hard to belive that it counts as a "reason" as if the last 3 pages of vitriol were somehow excused.......


whatever.

[LiamMcConville]

but they can call me "drunk" for no reason? what about the personal experiences I'VE shared? Dont bother to answer. Nobody here gives a ****. Everyone ELSE is perfect and only THEY have suffered. Whatever.

He calls you drunk. One person. Who's explained his reason for saying it.

What personal experiences in this thread have you shared? That you have self-diagnosed depression? And that you have court troubles regaurding your son? And that upsets you?

That at most is what you've shared with us. And no one took cheap shots at you for any of it.

[bretonbanquet]

I didnt bait YOU, you insulted ME. How dare you try to turn this around as if it were somehow MY fault~ whatever.

Go ahead and call me drunk. Ill just chalk it up to your mental condition. ok?

when you can say you're sorry, so will I.

You really can't help yourself, can you?

[Sarah]

i really just don't know what to say.

it's a trainwreck when hateful and ignorant collide.

[carrie721]

this was like the last post I read before seeing yours.......so I guess I find it hard to belive that it counts as a "reason" as if the last 3 pages of vitriol were somehow excused.......


whatever.

it was a reason, not an excuse. you didn't ask for an excuse, and i didn't say he gave one.

[Rickypt]

no. he's been saying that for weeks. please see the Penguin thread. IMO, Ryan WANTS to be banned, and Im an easy target.

I did say that you gave me a drunken bitch slap when you falsely accused me of attacking Ethan, it's true. But your accusation was so absurd and baseless that I really thought it was a drunken bitch slap. :sorry:

This is your m.o.:

You attack, people respond, you play victim, you ofuscate, you dodge, you deny, ultimately you pretend like you are letting go or you make some kind of apology and then spend hours talking about how great you are because you're willing to apologize.