Storms - Dennis Wilson

[Gailh]

I have just about read the book now. (We got it a bit late in the UK)

According to CAH Dennis told Christine, after a big fight, that he had slept with both her and Sarah Recor. CAH claims this never happened.

Dennis did sleep with one of Lindsey's girlfirends though, didn't he?

Anyway I still cannot believe that Christine was involved with Dennis Wilson. What was she thinking about :confused:

I do like the story about Christine's granny knickers. :lol: but on the whole I got bored with the constant stories of the drug taking and especially her portrayal of Lindsey as the grand producer of the music as if no-one else had part in the production of the albums. What was Christine doing then, sitting there saying nothing and letting him get on with it?

Gail

[Dreamz19]

I don't know if Lindsey ever called out CAH specifically, but I think when he says GF he is referring to her. He was with CAH when Dennis and Christine started seeing each other and it continuted up until after his death. CAH says that Lindsey believed her back then, but she has no idea why Lindsey changed his tune years later. That's another case of two different sides, along with their breakup.

The Christine story was really funny though :lol:. As for her being with Dennis. CAH speaks about his remarkable charm, his good looks and how it was hard to be mad with him. So maybe that's what captured Chris :shrug:

[Gailh]

The Christine story was really funny though :lol:. As for her being with Dennis. CAH speaks about his remarkable charm, his good looks and how it was hard to be mad with him. So maybe that's what captured Chris :shrug:

I suppose that must be it. She does have a remarkable talent for picking men that can't keep it zipped up or as CAH says "can't keep it in their pants"

Gail

[macfan 57]

I was a little surprised that she said she hadn't slept with Dennis Wilson, only that they were very good friends. Dennis was a womanizer & it is a little hard to believe that he would be "just friends" with any woman.;)

I thought the book was pretty interesting. I didn't find it boring at all. It was a bit more detailed & gossipy than Mick's book, which made it interesting.:D I tend to believe much of what she wrote. I have no reason not to. I don't think she portrayed Chris in a negative light. It sounds like she really did like her. Lindsey certainly came off looking horrible. The abuse didn't really surprise me since it's been hinted at by others before. The episode that CAH described at Christine's house between Lindsey & CAH is scary, to say the least. There must be something about Chris' house that makes Lindsey go a little crazy, what with this episode & the later Tango scene.;)

Regarding Chris, I liked the Granny Knickers story & Chris' reaction to Lindsey's Tusk look.:laugh:

By the way, I wonder if Chris has read the book or if she even knows the book exists.

[macfan 57]

especially her portrayal of Lindsey as the grand producer of the music as if no-one else had part in the production of the albums. What was Christine doing then, sitting there saying nothing and letting him get on with it?


That was annoying. Of course, we know it wasn't true.:D

[jbrownsjr]

This book was so much fun to read... I thought it was well written and very informative from CarolAnne's perspective...

[Gailh]

I thought the book was pretty interesting. I didn't find it boring at all. It was a bit more detailed & gossipy than Mick's book, which made it interesting.:D I tend to believe much of what she wrote. I have no reason not to. I don't think she portrayed Chris in a negative light. It sounds like she really did like her. Lindsey certainly came off looking horrible. The abuse didn't really surprise me since it's been hinted at by others before. The episode that CAH described at Christine's house between Lindsey & CAH is scary, to say the least. There must be something about Chris' house that makes Lindsey go a little crazy, what with this episode & the later Tango scene.;)

Regarding Chris, I liked the Granny Knickers story & Chris' reaction to Lindsey's Tusk look.:laugh:

By the way, I wonder if Chris has read the book or if she even knows the book exists.

I too thought the incident at Chris' house sounded really scary.

the book does have the ring of truth about it. for one thing Lindsey's lawyers would have been all over it like a rash if there were false allegations. Christine is portrayed in a generally positive light

I just got fed up with all the drug taking. It's a wonder they're all still alive!

All the members of FM (past and present) seem to be keeping very quiet about it. As far as I know no-one has made a comment about it. I would hazard a guess that Christine hasn't read it but I bet she knows about it.

Gail

[michelej1]

I didn't know about Dennis using Christine financially too. I guess I just always assumed that he had royalties from the Beach Boys, but that doesn't go far when you have an expensive drug habit.

The way Carol described Curry made you wonder what people saw in him too. He might have been good looking, but if he was going to brag to everyone about all the women he'd slept with -- right in front of those women -- that rather tarnishes his allure.

CAH says Christine lied about who she wrote Oh Daddy and Songbird about, but I don't think that's the case, because Christine didn't seem to be evasive about Curry.

I also found it interesting that Sharon and Ray went out, since we've seen both of them on tour with Fleetwood Mac for a long time.

for one thing Lindsey's lawyers would have been all over it like a rash if there were false allegations.

With the burden of proof what it is in these cases, lawyers can't weave silk out of straw. Unless you have objective evidence that something is untrue, you can't sue over something like this and win, when it comes to public figures. Private people have more power because they can sue for just invasion of privacy or for being presented in a false light and they can show damage (a necessary element of defamation). But celebrities are fair game. In most cases, the bad publicity doesn't damage them (sometimes it HELPS their career) and they also have to prove "actual malice." A private person wouldn't have to show malice, but if a public figure can't show that someone lied about them with malice, then they don't have a case.

That's why the tabloids are seldom sued. And it's hard to prove that something is untrue, when it's just he said vs. she said. If you can show you were never arrested and have no police record, were in London when they said you were in Paris or have some other hard proof that you didn't do what they said you did, then I guess you have a shot. Otherwise . . .

Most of the events Carol described with Lindsey happened when they were alone. There are no witnesses. The one at Christine's house is a rare exception. I guess if Lindsey's lawyers could get Christine to swear that Carol was lying about that, he would have a case regarding that one. In situation, that would be the words of 2 against one.

Carol also said he started strangling her at an Elvis Costello concert, but that everyone there thought he was hugging and caressing her and complimented her on what an attentive boyfriend she had and how in love they seemed. I believe those are the only 2 times she said he was violent with her when others were around.

Michele

[Gailh]

Most of the events Carol described with Lindsey happened when they were alone. There are no witnesses. The one at Christine's house is a rare exception. I guess if Lindsey's lawyers could get Christine to swear that Carol was lying about that, he would have a case regarding that one. In situation, that would be the words of 2 against one.
Michele

I agree that it's difficult to proove when it comes down to one person's word against another. However if that incident never took place then I'm sure Christine would be prepared to say so - in court if necessary. I doubt if CAH would have dared make that up when she mentioned that there was a witness.


Gail

[macfan 57]

However if that incident never took place then I'm sure Christine would be prepared to say so - in court if necessary. I doubt if CAH would have dared make that up when she mentioned that there was a witness.
Gail

I agree. Maybe Lindsey's lawyers had already verified what happened at Christine's house by checking with Chris. Hence the incident is in the book. And that last violent episode sent CAH to the hospital. It would seem that medical information would be easy to verify.

[Gailh]

I didn't know about Dennis using Christine financially too. I guess I just always assumed that he had royalties from the Beach Boys, but that doesn't go far when you have an expensive drug habit.
Michele


I once skimmed through a biography of Dennis Wilson, concentrating mainly on the 2 or 3 years he was with Christine. They seemed to suggest Christine used the drugs to keep Dennis with her. I knew he used her financially - didn't he once wreck her Rolls Royce to the point it had to be written off. (I don't know if that's a term you use in the US but in the UK it means the insurance company decides it's beyond repair)

Gail

[nicepace]

They seemed to suggest Christine used the drugs to keep Dennis with her. I knew he used her financially - didn't he once wreck her Rolls Royce to the point it had to be written off. (I don't know if that's a term you use in the US but in the UK it means the insurance company decides it's beyond repair)

Gail

In the U.S. we use "total" -- as in, that car was totalled in the accident. It's short for a "total loss."

As for Chris and Dennis Wilson, all I can say is Chris is much better off with nobody than she would be with Dennis. What a shame that someone as talented as he was would throw his life away by using drugs.

I have no intention of reading this book, but I'm glad for threads like this one that keep me informed on what it says about Christine.

[Gailh]

In the U.S. we use "total" -- as in, that car was totalled in the accident. It's short for a "total loss."

As for Chris and Dennis Wilson, all I can say is Chris is much better off with nobody than she would be with Dennis. What a shame that someone as talented as he was would throw his life away by using drugs.

I have no intention of reading this book, but I'm glad for threads like this one that keep me informed on what it says about Christine.

I found the book reasonably interesting although I got fed up with the way she portrayed herself as the "country girl" led astray by the wicked rock 'n rollers. If she quoted him correctly Lindsey's comments about "using all his best ideas on Stevie and Christine's songs" made me cross. And as I've said before the constant descriptions of the drug taking I found tedious. Maybe they found the drug taking tedious and that's why one by one they stopped. I can't imagine how much damage they all did to themselves and as for Ms McVie - snorting coke while driving. Jesus she was lucky the worst that happened to her was total embarrassment. I must admit I think it served her right.

Gail

[michelej1]

To tell you the truth, I believe Christine wore dingy granny knickers, but I find the whole strip searched thing hard to swallow. Why didn't that arrest make the papers like John and Julie's did (and FM was a lot less famous when John was charged)? Carol makes it sound like a pretty well-known incident, both within the FM circle and to the police. Sometimes celebrities are let go and we never hear about it, but if it got to the point where Christine was strip searched, she would have had to be arrested for that to happen.

I agree. Maybe Lindsey's lawyers had already verified what happened at Christine's house by checking with Chris. Hence the incident is in the book. And that last violent episode sent CAH to the hospital. It would seem that medical information would be easy to verify.

Easy for Carol to verify. No one else would have access to her medical records. They're private and the right to privacy even remains after you die. You're right. They would make good verifying evidence, though. Usually when you go to the doctor, they make a note as to what you said happened as well as your physical condition. So, if she reported that her boyfriend did that to her, I guess that would be in the medical records. Most of the time she said she didn't tell anyone but Sara though.

Michele

[aleuzzi]

on the whole I got bored with the constant stories of the drug taking and especially her portrayal of Lindsey as the grand producer of the music as if no-one else had part in the production of the albums. What was Christine doing then, sitting there saying nothing and letting him get on with it?

Gail

When I was young I was so used to reading about what a grand producer Lindsey was that I honestly thought the other musicians bascially NEEDED him to complete their songs. But any quick listen to demos (such as with Hold me) or the stripped down masters on Tusk of Honey Hi and Never Forget reveal what Christine has always said...she usually has a good idea of where she wants her songs to go before she enters the studio and that only when she's being generous to Lindsey do the songs differ vastly from their original conception.

Lindsey has also been credited with exploiting the Byrds-like vocal formula which, according to Rolling Stone's review of Tusk, began with "You make Loving Fun" and is abundant throughout Tusk. It's not hard to hear Chris using thick YMLF-like vocal textures much earlier, such as on the title track to Heroes are Hard to Find or in her harmonies to Emerald Eyes.

In short, she was most likely very involved in all stages of arrangment and prodcution of those records. She just doesn't blab about what a tortured genius she is.

[Gailh]

When I was young I was so used to reading about what a grand producer Lindsey was that I honestly thought the other musicians bascially NEEDED him to complete their songs. But any quick listen to demos (such as with Hold me) or the stripped down masters on Tusk of Honey Hi and Never Forget reveal what Christine has always said...she usually has a good idea of where she wants her songs to go before she enters the studio and that only when she's being generous to Lindsey do the songs differ vastly from their original conception.

Lindsey has also been credited with exploiting the Byrds-like vocal formula which, according to Rolling Stone's review of Tusk, began with "You make Loving Fun" and is abundant throughout Tusk. It's not hard to hear Chris using thick YMLF-like vocal textures much earlier, such as on the title track to Heroes are Hard to Find or in her harmonies to Emerald Eyes.

In short, she was most likely very involved in all stages of arrangment and prodcution of those records. She just doesn't blab about what a tortured genius she is.

I totally agree. Christine is more than capable of producing her songs as she proved on ITM. On the Making of Rumours DVD Ken Caillat says about (I think) YMLF that Christine basically had it "already worked out in her head".

I found one of the comments about Tusk particularly irritating. CAH seems to suggest that Lindsey was adamant about none of the band performing on his songs. I not sure he gets the idea of being in a band.

Gail

[michelej1]

The other Christine comment of Carol's that I found unlikely is the bit about Lindsey's epilepsy. That audio tape has been circulated in which Christine asks Mick if she should just say that Lindsey has a mild form of epilepsy when people ask. Mick tells her no. Since Christine was prepared to say Lindsey had epilepsy herself and was only stopped by Mick, it doesn't make sense when Carol writes that Christine was the one lecturing Lindsey about not disclosing his malady to the media. From the audio tape, I never thought Christine thought there was anything wrong with doing so herself. Mick is the one who didn't want to.

Michele

[macfan 57]

I found one of the comments about Tusk particularly irritating. CAH seems to suggest that Lindsey was adamant about none of the band performing on his songs. I not sure he gets the idea of being in a band.
Gail

Yes, that made it sound as if Lindsey thought the rest of the band would somehow ruin his songs by playing on them, which is ridiculous. I believe Mick in his book mentioned that neither of the McVies liked the arrangement. The only reason they put up with what they did was because they were trying to keep Lindsey in Fleetwood Mac.

[aleuzzi]

Don't get me wrong: I think Lindsey's an excellent producer-arranger. Most of his arrangments on Say You Will (with the exception of an occasional major screw up) is really quite good. I also think his guitar fills on various songs by the other two writers' are great. I just don't think he is the sole visionary there. A lot of the MAC studio chemistry came from Christine. Her mutli-layered vocal harmonies on the Pre-BN songs shows she was getting quite savvy in the studio. And didn't she say once she was one of the first people to purchase an arp-string ensemble and use it on a pop record?

[Blondie85]

OMG, can we please stop nip picking & scrutinizing every single sentence in a quote or article. Why dont you let up and stop looking for stuff thats not really there. Everything always has to turn into a discussion about Lindsey Vs Christine on this board.:distress:

[jbrownsjr]

When I was young I was so used to reading about what a grand producer Lindsey was that I honestly thought the other musicians bascially NEEDED him to complete their songs. But any quick listen to demos (such as with Hold me) or the stripped down masters on Tusk of Honey Hi and Never Forget reveal what Christine has always said...she usually has a good idea of where she wants her songs to go before she enters the studio and that only when she's being generous to Lindsey do the songs differ vastly from their original conception.

Lindsey has also been credited with exploiting the Byrds-like vocal formula which, according to Rolling Stone's review of Tusk, began with "You make Loving Fun" and is abundant throughout Tusk. It's not hard to hear Chris using thick YMLF-like vocal textures much earlier, such as on the title track to Heroes are Hard to Find or in her harmonies to Emerald Eyes.

In short, she was most likely very involved in all stages of arrangment and prodcution of those records. She just doesn't blab about what a tortured genius she is.


AMEN!!!!:thumbsup:

[macfan 57]

Don't get me wrong: I think Lindsey's an excellent producer-arranger. Most of his arrangments on Say You Will (with the exception of an occasional major screw up) is really quite good. I also think his guitar fills on various songs by the other two writers' are great. I just don't think he is the sole visionary there. A lot of the MAC studio chemistry came from Christine. Her mutli-layered vocal harmonies on the Pre-BN songs shows she was getting quite savvy in the studio. And didn't she say once she was one of the first people to purchase an arp-string ensemble and use it on a pop record?

I don't have the exact quote, but I'm not sure she was talking about the arp string ensemble. She may have been referring to the mellotron. I know whatever it was, she said that it had a very low serial number.

I completely agree with your post, by the way.:)

[Gailh]

Don't get me wrong: I think Lindsey's an excellent producer-arranger. Most of his arrangments on Say You Will (with the exception of an occasional major screw up) is really quite good. I also think his guitar fills on various songs by the other two writers' are great. I just don't think he is the sole visionary there. A lot of the MAC studio chemistry came from Christine. Her mutli-layered vocal harmonies on the Pre-BN songs shows she was getting quite savvy in the studio. And didn't she say once she was one of the first people to purchase an arp-string ensemble and use it on a pop record?

I totally agree. No-one is saying Lindsey isn't talented. I happen to think he is a very talented producer and guitarist and lately a very good songwriter. Sometimes his attitude seems to suggest that he "does it all". According to Mick's book that's what annoyed Christine at the meeting at her house just before the Tango tour. Lindsey saying "I can't do it all anymore"

Gail

[jbrownsjr]

I totally agree. No-one is saying Lindsey isn't talented. I happen to think he is a very talented producer and guitarist and lately a very good songwriter. Sometimes his attitude seems to suggest that he "does it all". According to Mick's book that's what annoyed Christine at the meeting at her house just before the Tango tour. Lindsey saying "I can't do it all anymore"

Gail

see this is why can't stand Linsdey's bitching.....

he wants it all his way..... he wants to control all the work..... he toots his own horn.... then bitches he had to do it that way.....

i wish christine would dragged him by his hair down her driveway!! lol

[michelej1]

But this is rather apples and oranges. In Mick's book, Lindsey was complaining about Tango and most of his frustration probably came from the fact that Stevie wasn't around and he had to kind of manipulate the songs to make it sound like she was. It's probably due to Stevie's absence that he and Christine collaborated more on Tango than they did elsewhere and far from making it sound like he did it all, he told Creem that Tango had Christine's best batch of songs ever. Michele

[Gailh]

But this is rather apples and oranges. In Mick's book, Lindsey was complaining about Tango and most of his frustration probably came from the fact that Stevie wasn't around and he had to kind of manipulate the songs to make it sound like she was. It's probably due to Stevie's absence that he and Christine collaborated more on Tango than they did elsewhere and far from making it sound like he did it all, he told Creem that Tango had Christine's best batch of songs ever. Michele

In Mick's book Lindsey was complaining about having to "do it all" and this was just after the album was completed and they had the meeting at Christine's house. He may well have said that Tango had Christine's best bunch of songs (and I agree with him) but he does come across (as jbrownsjr says) as wanting it all ways - wanting the control and then moaning that he has to do it all.

Gail

[michelej1]

In Mick's book Lindsey was complaining about having to "do it all" and this was just after the album was completed and they had the meeting at Christine's house. He may well have said that Tango had Christine's best bunch of songs (and I agree with him) but he does come across (as jbrownsjr says) as wanting it all ways - wanting the control and then moaning that he has to do it all.

Gail


Yeah, but that comment from Lindsey was related to Tango and the production on that, not the history of the band as a whole. Certainly it's clear that he generally likes all of the control, that's especially apparent by the time you get to the Say You Will album. But back during the period when he made the "doing it all" comment attributed to him in Mick's book, when it came to Tango, he didn't seek that control out. On the contrary, Lindsey wasn't even going to produce the album, Mick said he kind of tricked him into doing it in a roundabout way, by hiring other producers that couldn't handle the job.

As for Tusk Lindsey never did the keyboards on his own songs. He did John and Mick's parts. Judging from Christine's appearances on his solo albums up to GOS, I'd say he welcomed her help in and out of the band, until Say You Will.

Michele

[macfan 57]

As for Tusk Lindsey never did the keyboards on his own songs. He did John and Mick's parts. Judging from Christine's appearances on his solo albums up to GOS, I'd say he welcomed her help in and out of the band, until Say You Will.

Michele

Lindsey did play piano on "What Makes You Think You're The One", although Chris played it live during the Tusk tour. Chris did mention this in a 1980 keyboard magazine article. Chris has also described his Tusk songs as a solo album within a Fleetwood Mac album.

[michelej1]

Yeah, I did see Lindsey talking about doing "What Makes You Think You're the One" alone at night with Mick on drums. He said there was no Christine holding him back on that one! I also just got home, to look at my copy of Mick's book and he was saying he can't do it all anymore, after giving 12 years of his life to the band. Michele

[Gailh]

Lindsey did play piano on "What Makes You Think You're The One", although Chris played it live during the Tusk tour. Chris did mention this in a 1980 keyboard magazine article. Chris has also described his Tusk songs as a solo album within a Fleetwood Mac album.

Yes that just about sums it up. I was shocked to read in CAH's book that for one song on Tusk (it may have been more) Lindsey sat behind John and made him the play the exact notes he wanted. He doesn't sound to me that he wanted to be in band at that point. If I was being cynical (heaven forbid) it sounds like he wanted the brand name but not the others "interfering" with his masterpieces.

Gail

[macfan 57]

He said there was no Christine holding him back on that one!

I'd never heard that quote before.:(

By the way, I can only imagine what John McVie may have said to Lindsey when he was telling John what notes to play.;):D

[macfan 57]

it sounds like he wanted the brand name but not the others "interfering" with his masterpieces.
Gail

Exactly. I couldn't have said it better.:nod:

[Gailh]

I'd never heard that quote before.:(

By the way, I can only imagine what John McVie may have said to Lindsey when he was telling John what notes to play.;):D

something like *@&$ off!

I hadn't heard that quote before either but it's what we all suspected - that Lindsey thought Christine was "holding him back". Wicked, wicked Tea Lady.


Gail

[Jessica]

Did Bob Welch also think Christine was "holding him back?" In one of his Q&As here, he basically said she was musically unadventurous (if talented) and turned up her nose at anything he tried to do that was less mainstream. I took it with a grain of salt, because he came off as really bitter, but it makes you wonder. She was obviously the one who had the best idea of what would appeal to the broadest range of people, though, given the popularity of her songs.

Christine was always more about the music and playing. Stevie has always sold an image to go along with her songs. I mean, you don't dress like that to sing "Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy" or something. While I think she is a great songwriter (not a producer or arranger, obviously) and had the right voice to go with her music, I don't think she would've been as big without the image she cultivated. Her looks didn't hurt, either. The scary thing is that I don't think she planned it in the beginning. It just worked for her and she's played it up ever since. Christine did not need an image to sell her songs, but she could've been bigger than she was, had she been into that.

I think Lindsey has always believed he was more talented than either of them and that he was largely responsible for their success, which is why it ate at him that Stevie was so popular as a solo artist. Hence his "lounge act" remark. He is a talented producer, arranger and guitar player. But, most of his best songs were on Say You Will, IMO. The lyrics always seemed like an afterthought on many of of his earlier songs. Stevie's solo success and the fact that Christine made 2 great solo records and co-produced both indicates to me that they made their own success. Fleetwood Mac was great during their lineup because the combination of the 5 people was so good, not that Lindsey didn't play an important part as a producer in creating the sound.

[TrueFaith77]

For me, the proof is in the pudding. Along with the shimmering diamond of "Gypsy," the raison d’être of 80s Mac is in the degree of collaboration between Christine and Lindsey. Lindsey should know that.

[Gailh]

Did Bob Welch also think Christine was "holding him back?" In one of his Q&As here, he basically said she was musically unadventurous (if talented) and turned up her nose at anything he tried to do that was less mainstream. I took it with a grain of salt, because he came off as really bitter, but it makes you wonder. She was obviously the one who had the best idea of what would appeal to the broadest range of people, though, given the popularity of her songs.

Christine was always more about the music and playing. Stevie has always sold an image to go along with her songs. I mean, you don't dress like that to sing "Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy" or something. While I think she is a great songwriter (not a producer or arranger, obviously) and had the right voice to go with her music, I don't think she would've been as big without the image she cultivated. Her looks didn't hurt, either. The scary thing is that I don't think she planned it in the beginning. It just worked for her and she's played it up ever since. Christine did not need an image to sell her songs, but she could've been bigger than she was, had she been into that.

I think Lindsey has always believed he was more talented than either of them and that he was largely responsible for their success, which is why it ate at him that Stevie was so popular as a solo artist. Hence his "lounge act" remark. He is a talented producer, arranger and guitar player. But, most of his best songs were on Say You Will, IMO. The lyrics always seemed like an afterthought on many of of his earlier songs. Stevie's solo success and the fact that Christine made 2 great solo records and co-produced both indicates to me that they made their own success. Fleetwood Mac was great during their lineup because the combination of the 5 people was so good, not that Lindsey didn't play an important part as a producer in creating the sound.

Very interesting comments.

I think it is true to say that Christine is somewhat conservative in her musical tastes and that's where Lindsey was good for her I think to push her a little farther than she wanted to go. Christine was good for Lindsey by curbing some of his excesses. I do believe, however, that Lindsey appreciated Christine's talent although he didn't always show it! I think some of his comments after her leaving proove that he misses her, at least musically, because he knows what she brings to the band's sound.

As for Bob Welsh I think he did sound bitter in that Q&A which is not to say that he had not been on the receiving end of some of Ms McVie's sarcastic remarks. I don't think she is "backward in coming forward" as we say in England. Somebody asked him quite recently if he'd like to record with her again and he said he would but he "didn't think Christine liked him very much"

I agree that Lindsey has grown as a songwriter and I like his SYW stuff a lot except for Murrow and Come which are too long for my taste.

for me the appeal of FM was always the diversity - everyone brought something different to the mix and somehow it worked. the whole was greater than the sum of its parts. Which is why it annoys me when Lindsey talks like it was all his doing.

Anyway it doesn't look like we'll get another FM album because Stevie wont make on "in this lifetime" without Christine because "they tried it once and it didn't work".

Gail

[Jessica]

Anyway it doesn't look like we'll get another FM album because Stevie wont make on "in this lifetime" without Christine because "they tried it once and it didn't work".

Gail

It's funny that she says that. I rather liked the album and thought it worked just fine. I missed Christine's sound on it, definitely. As has been said many times, it was really like a 2nd Buckingham Nicks album with the FM rhythm section. It didn't sound much like what I think of Fleetwood Mac, but, then again, they hadn't recorded a studio album with both S and L since TITN, which had a very '80s sound. I'll say it again. Too bad C won't just record with them. They've managed to do OK touring without her, but her contributions are missed on the record. From what she said, she seemed to enjoy the creative process in the studio and she loves how she sounds with S and L. Guess it's just more pressure than she needs or wants.

[michelej1]

To quote him exactly about "What Makes You Think You're the One" Lindsey said he and Mick were alone in the studio that night. The sound of Mick on the snare drums was so explosive when they played it back that Mick "got off on it" and became an animal. Lindsey said, "And it was just two-piece. There was no Christine or anybody putting any constraints on what could or couldn’t be done. That has to rate as one of my top-five moments with the band."

From Mick's book, Mick said Lindsey said, "I've done it all arranged, produced, played guitar, sang. I just can't hack it and do it all anymore." Then, according to Mick, Christine sharply questioned this comment because because Lindsey had been suggesting in the press that he was the one responsible for translating Christine and Stevie's music to the world. Which is ironic, because Christine herself has actually said that Lindsey did that.

She said, "I don't tell Lindsey, for example, 'I want you to play such-and-such kind of guitar, that lick,' That's why Lindsey has got the additional production credit on the album-he's been largely responsible for helping to bring across on the record the atmosphere that I want to come over on a song that I write." And in the same interview: "I don't really imagine anybody else being able to do what he does with my songs."

And about her Lindsey said, "She and I have a real valid kind of rapport between us, something that was there before we even met. It's like she can play the piano and I can play the guitar just wonderfully along with her. It's almost like parallel lines during our formative years of music until we met, and it gave us a lot of common ground."

I think Lindsey's songwriting has always been exemplary, at least starting with Rumours, but starting with Miranda and continuing to Under the Skin, I think he is showing more strength and consistency as a lyricist than he ever had before. Music wasn't really his problem, imo. The lyrics were.

Michele

[Gailh]

From Mick's book, Mick said Lindsey said, "I've done it all arranged, produced, played guitar, sang. I just can't hack it and do it all anymore." Then, according to Mick, Christine sharply questioned this comment because because Lindsey had been suggesting in the press that he was the one responsible for translating Christine and Stevie's music to the world. Which is ironic, because Christine herself has actually said that Lindsey did that.

She said, "I don't tell Lindsey, for example, 'I want you to play such-and-such kind of guitar, that lick,' That's why Lindsey has got the additional production credit on the album-he's been largely responsible for helping to bring across on the record the atmosphere that I want to come over on a song that I write."

Michele

I don't think anyone is questioning Lindsey's great contribution to the band and of course he contributed to the sound that FM made. If I were Christine I wouldn't tell him what type of guitar to add to a song which makes it more ironic that he felt he could tell John exactly what notes to play on Tusk.

I just don't think that he "did it all" except maybe on his songs on Tusk where he did literally "do it all" and here is a quote from Christine on that subject "I don't think that some of Lindsey's drumming is the best that could be desired, but he needed to get that off his chest, and he did it" so she may be impressed with his guitar work but not his drumming.

On Tusk he certainly did have the lion's share of the production work but I doubt if the others felt they had any choice in the matter.

Gail

[macfan 57]

for me the appeal of FM was always the diversity - everyone brought something different to the mix and somehow it worked. the whole was greater than the sum of its parts.


I Agree. In my opinion, that's why the White Album & Rumours were so popular, both with critics & record buyers. They were true BAND albums. They had input from everyone in the band.

[macfan 57]

On Tusk he certainly did have the lion's share of the production work but I doubt if the others felt they had any choice in the matter.

Gail

That's true, but Chris & Stevie's songs were band songs. It was only Lindsey's songs that were separate from the rest on Tusk. I'll bet that Chris had a hand in the production on both her & Stevie's songs.

[michelej1]

Listen, if it seems like he does, Lindsey shouldn't be hogging all of the credit for FM's success. But it's ridiculous to act like he didn't have the production "lion's share" in the group when everyone has acknowledged that he did, especially Christine. I mean whether she was happy with him and complimenting him or mad at him and complaining about him (like saying that after only being produced by Lindsey for so many years it was like a breath of fresh air to be with Patrick Leonard), she always acknowledges him as being the one steering the band's sound, for better or for worse.

which makes it more ironic that he felt he could tell John exactly what notes to play on Tusk.

Oh, I doubt that he did tell John exactly what notes to play on Tusk. Carol Ann's description really contradicts what Mick, John, and Lindsey have said about John's interraction with Lindsey. I don't think Lindsey had/has a lot of control over John. Although John has said it was tough getting anything done in the studio without Lindsey there, I think he was pretty territorial over his bass playing and didn't let anyone push him around.

Lindsey has acknowledged in interviews (and Mick also said that Lindsey has in Mick's book) that he was selfish where Tusk was concerned. And he tried to remedy that by being a team player with Mirage and Tango.

so she may be impressed with his guitar work but not his drumming.

I don't think it's Lindsey's guitar work that impressed Christine. He didn't get a production credit from the band for playing the guitar.

She said other than not having a #1 song of her own, her other regret about Fleetwood Mac was Lindsey leaving: "In many ways he defined what people now recognize as Fleetwood Mac’s sound. And which was missing from our last album Behind The Mask. Not that I’m criticizing the guys we got in to replace him: Rick Vito and Billy Burnette. They’re both fine musicians. But I do regret that Lindsey’s gone. There was a creative chemistry there which, when it was right, was absolutely amazing. Our individual approaches to music were so different, but there was this point where they met that was quite magical. To find that quality with other musicians is very difficult. It’s a once in a lifetime thing."

Lindsey's not oblivious to that chemistry himself. Christine said she would tell him when his work was "caca" and he was good about changing it and he said, "There's an exquisite sense of checks and balances in Fleetwood Mac and that's one of the things that makes the band work. Everybody's always checking each other out to a certain degree, not only in choosing the material but on every level of our creativity. Maybe that contributes to the albums taking as long as they do. It's not the most efficient way to so things But it does seem effective in the end."

As far as Christine working on Stevie's songs, I've never heard her say she has. She talks more about Lindsey's work on Stevie's songs. She has spoken about working in collaboration on Lindsey's songs, not only The Chain and the ones they co-wrote for Tango, but Eyes of the World too. I don't think I've ever heard her say anything about World Turning. I remember Stevie said she was jealous when they wrote it and she came in and saw Chris and Lindsey singing it together.

Anyway, I definitely think Lindsey needs an outside ear on his songs, be it Christine, Keith, Ken or Richard. I don't think he has enough objectivity to know when they need work.

Michele

[TrueFaith77]

i wish christine would dragged him by his hair down her driveway!! lol

hahahahaha:laugh::wavey:

[Gailh]

But it's ridiculous to act like he didn't have the production "lion's share" in the group when everyone has acknowledged that he did, especially Christine.
Michele

I didn't day he didn't have the lion's share of the production, especially on Tusk - what I am saying is that he didn't "do it all". that implies that the others, especially Christine, were just sitting around going "yes Lindsey, no Lindsey, three bags full Lindsey". I for one cannot imagine Ms McVie acting like that.

On Tusk he certainly had something to get off his chest but it didn't make for a "band album".

Gail

[michelej1]

Well, I'd agree that the production on Lindsey's songs didn't make for a band album. But I think Tusk overall is representative of the band if you figure in Stevie and Christine's songs too. And I also think they go together a little bit. For instance, I think the drums on Honey Hi figure in with the tribal sound on Tusk, the single. I think there's a complementary thing going on there.

When people say that SYW is just 2 solo albums smashed together, I don't get that feeling from Tusk. It doesn't seem like all the songs are separated. Also, I guess the concert footage after-the-fact influences my view, because even though The Ledge wasn't shared, when you see them doing it in concert, it feels just as shared as Second Hand News was, because of the harmonies.

As for "doing it all" I just don't get that that's what Lindsey was saying. To me he was saying he was having to do so many different things, not that he was the only one doing anything in the band and he was just carrying the weight of everyone else.

As for Christine, well, yeah I don't guess she played Simon Says with him. I mean, last time out she did describe her, John and Mick as a bed on which Lindsey could roll around and do whatever he wanted.

But with her being a musician and songwriter, there's no way he could treat her like he did Stevie. Also, Christine was classically trained and Lindsey doesn't read music and I think Christine has said she focuses on musical instruments and he focuses on computer experimentation -- probably because he might not have as good a background with -- I don't know . . . I think he said he only knows a few chords.

He said that Christine comes in with the scenes already set for her songs. They have a structure and frame that doesn't change, because she already knows what she wants, as opposed to Stevie, where it's so loose that you can create your own structure within her songs, as long as you don't change their words and emotional content, because Stevie has an acute awareness of exactly what she wants there.

But yes, I definitely think that each band member has shortcomings that the other balances out. Not only with the musical ability of Christine and Lindsey, but also the way the 3 of them approach lyrics too and temperament.

One of my favorite reviews is from the Us Festival where the guy notes that while Christine is crooning sweetly, Lindsey is screaming like a wolf. I mean, that balance, that contrast, is what epitomizes the band for me.

Michele

[MrsMcVie]

I'd never heard that quote before.:(

By the way, I can only imagine what John McVie may have said to Lindsey when he was telling John what notes to play.;):D

I can think of a few words..;) Oh to have been a fly on that wall! :D
Actually if you watch the Tusk doc and watch Lindsey´s face while John is playing to one of his songs (can´t remember which one right now) you can clearly see that he really has to restrain himself from jumping right in and make corrections. At some point he says something to John (that I can´t really hear) and John just says: "I play it the way I feel it and if you don´t like it you can..." Just brilliant. Go Johnny go!! :nod:

[aleuzzi]

As for Bob Welch ....Somebody asked him quite recently if he'd like to record with her again and he said he would but he "didn't think Christine liked him very much"

This is probably true, due to the law suit--and that's sad because at one time they were quite close. In her Rumors-era interviews Chris praised Bob profusely and spoke of him with genuine affection.

[Jessica]

This is probably true, due to the law suit--and that's sad because at one time they were quite close. In her Rumors-era interviews Chris praised Bob profusely and spoke of him with genuine affection.

I wouldn't much like someone who sued me, either. From what he said in the Q&A, Bob gives the impression that he never really cared for Christine as a person. He mostly made complimentary remarks about her as a musician, other than his opinion that she stays in a comfort zone. But, I remember reading more than one interview where C said that she had always gotten along well with Bob. Was she lying? Did Bob's bitterness color his memories? Did he hide his dislike of her over the years?

[jbrownsjr]

Did Bob Welch also think Christine was "holding him back?" In one of his Q&As here, he basically said she was musically unadventurous (if talented) and turned up her nose at anything he tried to do that was less mainstream. I took it with a grain of salt, because he came off as really bitter, but it makes you wonder. She was obviously the one who had the best idea of what would appeal to the broadest range of people, though, given the popularity of her songs.

Christine was always more about the music and playing. Stevie has always sold an image to go along with her songs. I mean, you don't dress like that to sing "Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy" or something. While I think she is a great songwriter (not a producer or arranger, obviously) and had the right voice to go with her music, I don't think she would've been as big without the image she cultivated. Her looks didn't hurt, either. The scary thing is that I don't think she planned it in the beginning. It just worked for her and she's played it up ever since. Christine did not need an image to sell her songs, but she could've been bigger than she was, had she been into that.

I think Lindsey has always believed he was more talented than either of them and that he was largely responsible for their success, which is why it ate at him that Stevie was so popular as a solo artist. Hence his "lounge act" remark. He is a talented producer, arranger and guitar player. But, most of his best songs were on Say You Will, IMO. The lyrics always seemed like an afterthought on many of of his earlier songs. Stevie's solo success and the fact that Christine made 2 great solo records and co-produced both indicates to me that they made their own success. Fleetwood Mac was great during their lineup because the combination of the 5 people was so good, not that Lindsey didn't play an important part as a producer in creating the sound.


great post

[jbrownsjr]

Keep going you guys.... this is great reading....

[Gailh]

I wouldn't much like someone who sued me, either. From what he said in the Q&A, Bob gives the impression that he never really cared for Christine as a person. He mostly made complimentary remarks about her as a musician, other than his opinion that she stays in a comfort zone. But, I remember reading more than one interview where C said that she had always gotten along well with Bob. Was she lying? Did Bob's bitterness color his memories? Did he hide his dislike of her over the years?

I agree. I don't think I'd be too fond of someone who was suing me. I think that's why Bob didn't get inducted in the Rock 'n Roll Hall of Fame - no one in FM was prepared to make a fuss about it.

As far as I remember in the first Q&A Bob was rude about Mick and John as well but he seems to have made up with Mick at least.

I always got the impression that Christine like him but it looks like the law suit soured their relationship.

Gail

[macfan 57]

Back in the 1980's, Chris had some very nice things to say about Bob. She called him a wonderful man in one interview I have. I think the lawsuit changed everything. I can't exactly blame her. I wouldn't have any nice things to say about someone if they had sued me. In Bob's first Q & A, he said some very nasty, personal things about Chris. Who knows? She may have read it. She has checked out this website. He toned it down alot in his second Q & A after he had reconciled with Mick. It's a shame because they seemed to have a nice chemistry together in Fleetwood Mac & seemed to be good friends as well.

[Jessica]

Back in the 1980's, Chris had some very nice things to say about Bob. She called him a wonderful man in one interview I have. I think the lawsuit changed everything. I can't exactly blame her. I wouldn't have any nice things to say about someone if they had sued me. In Bob's first Q & A, he said some very nasty, personal things about Chris. Who knows? She may have read it. She has checked out this website. He toned it down alot in his second Q & A after he had reconciled with Mick. It's a shame because they seemed to have a nice chemistry together in Fleetwood Mac & seemed to be good friends as well.

How do we know she's checked out this site? Keep in mind that I haven't hung out here much the last few years.

[Gailh]

How do we know she's checked out this site? Keep in mind that I haven't hung out here much the last few years.

Didn't she once send an email to Lis?

Gail

[nicepace]

I am the person who asked Bob about recording with Christine again, over on his website, where he is actively involved in the message board.

In his response he said he would be interested, but he didn't think Chris liked him very much since the lawsuit. If I remember correctly the tone of his response indicated he has no dislike for her, but that he assumes she has dislike for him. I assume the lawsuit wasn't motivated by personal animosity in the first place.

But I suspect if he called her she'd be delighted to hear from him. They're both mature adults, and surely they must both be proud of the five albums they recorded together. But whether that means Chris would actually be interested in recording with Bob, I have no idea. Over the past few years Bob has released a few self-produced CDs including two very interesting CDs of covers of Fleetwood Mac songs, and I can see a place for Christine on a CD like that.

[Gailh]

I am the person who asked Bob about recording with Christine again, over on his website, where he is actively involved in the message board.

In his response he said he would be interested, but he didn't think Chris liked him very much since the lawsuit. If I remember correctly the tone of his response indicated he has no dislike for her, but that he assumes she has dislike for him. I assume the lawsuit wasn't motivated by personal animosity in the first place.

But I suspect if he called her she'd be delighted to hear from him. They're both mature adults, and surely they must both be proud of the five albums they recorded together. But whether that means Chris would actually be interested in recording with Bob, I have no idea. Over the past few years Bob has released a few self-produced CDs including two very interesting CDs of covers of Fleetwood Mac songs, and I can see a place for Christine on a CD like that.

the lawsuit may not have been motivated by personal animosity but his comments on his first Q&A most certainly were.

But as you say she may have softened a little over the years.

I don't think Christine is interested in recording with anyone anymore (more's the pity) I think ITM was her swansong.

Gail

[macfan 57]

Didn't she once send an email to Lis?

Gail

Yes, she did. I also have a feeling that she had read George Hawkins Q & A. She called George up out of the blue while he was doing his Q & A. I can't believe that was just coincidence.

[jbrownsjr]

Yes, she did. I also have a feeling that she had read George Hawkins Q & A. She called George up out of the blue while he was doing his Q & A. I can't believe that was just coincidence.


she should have used to web to promote her album more... cos she was making it at that time no>?

[aleuzzi]

Yes, she did. I also have a feeling that she had read George Hawkins Q & A. She called George up out of the blue while he was doing his Q & A. I can't believe that was just coincidence.

Well, if she ever reads this: CHRISTINE RECORD AGAIN! ANYTHING! ANYTHING!

[Jessica]

Well, if she ever reads this: CHRISTINE RECORD AGAIN! ANYTHING! ANYTHING!

Seriously. FM would be the ultimate (dream on, right?), but I'd pee myself if she recorded another solo album. Heck, I could get pretty excited about a guest appearance on somebody else's album.

[Gailh]

Seriously. FM would be the ultimate (dream on, right?), but I'd pee myself if she recorded another solo album. Heck, I could get pretty excited about a guest appearance on somebody else's album.

:laugh: :laugh:

I think there'd be a few of us losing control of our bodily functions if Christine ever decided to record again and if it was with FM .... well I hate to think!

Gail

[Gailh]

Yes, she did. I also have a feeling that she had read George Hawkins Q & A. She called George up out of the blue while he was doing his Q & A. I can't believe that was just coincidence.

Yes that did seem like too much of a coincedence.

that was when some people got a little over excited because they thought she owned a pub!

Gail

[macfan 57]

that was when some people got a little over excited because they thought she owned a pub!

Gail

I remember that. It turned out that she just used to visit a pub near her home, rather than actually owning it. That must have been before she stopped drinking.

[macfan 57]

she should have used to web to promote her album more... cos she was making it at that time no>?

George said that she was writing a little, but that she wouldn't commit to recording an album. That must have been in the very beginning when she had first started writing, probably even before her nephew got involved.

[Gailh]

I remember that. It turned out that she just used to visit a pub near her home, rather than actually owning it. That must have been before she stopped drinking.

there is a pub in the village where she lives so it would only be a short walk. I imagine she still goes there but just stays off the alcohol. Unless of course "not drinking anymore" means not drinking to excess anymore and she still has a glass of shandy every now and then :laugh:

Gail

[trackaghost]

You know I did wonder if Christine really did witness that horrible scene at her house between Carol Ann Harris and Lindsey, did she confront Lindsey about it? She doesn't seem the type of person not to say anything if she saw something like that going on, and that was pretty extreme.

[jbrownsjr]

You know I did wonder if Christine really did witness that horrible scene at her house between Carol Ann Harris and Lindsey, did she confront Lindsey about it? She doesn't seem the type of person not to say anything if she saw something like that going on, and that was pretty extreme.


You know I think episodes like that were common... not just with LB but the whole gang... that it probably became normal to live in denial....

[Gailh]

You know I did wonder if Christine really did witness that horrible scene at her house between Carol Ann Harris and Lindsey, did she confront Lindsey about it? She doesn't seem the type of person not to say anything if she saw something like that going on, and that was pretty extreme.

I'm not sure CAH would have dared include that scene in the book if it didn't have a strong basis in the truth. If it didn't happen then surely Lindsey would have got Christine to swear on oath and then get it removed from the book or risk being sued.

We don't know if Christine did tackle Lindsey about it. Maybe she thought it was all OK because Carol went back to him.

Gail

[Jessica]

It seems that Christine took an awful lot of crap off Dennis. Maybe he didn't physically abuse her, but if even some of this is true, I'd call it psychological abuse, which is just as bad. She had enough problems of her own to worry about at that point in time, I'd say. That doesn't mean she thought what was going on between Lindsey and Carol Ann was acceptable, but maybe she thought it wasn't her job to interfere. I have no idea if I'm making any sense.

[michelej1]

Violence may not have been normal within the band, but I get the feeling that outbursts and extreme behavior were very routine and whatever happened at Christine's house might not have seemed like that big a deal to her. Stevie talked about hiding Christine in her condo when John would come screaming down the halls for Chris. When you have a bunch of people always using alcohol and drugs, I bet a bunch of wild things happen that are barely memorable, let alone remarkable.

Michele

[macfan 57]

I got the impression from CAH's book, that Christine was shocked at what happened between CAH & Lindsey. I think CAH said that Chris' face was white & she just kept asking CAH if she was OK. I can't imagine that she thought the incident was routine because it seemed so extreme. I'm not sure Chris would have confronted Lindsey about it. Maybe she thought it was private between the two of them.

[michelej1]

Yeah, Carol wrote that Chris was startled, asked if she was ok and then followed her silently up the stairs, as Carol went to get her purse, mumbled an apology and left the house. The page before Carol was writing about how Mike Love made a comment to Dennis about being late for a sound check and Dennis casually reached out in a second and punched his cousin unconscious. I don't think alarmingly angry or dangerous behavior was unusual.

Actually, the whole thing sounded like the other part of the rumor (rumour) that's been passed down all these years. Supposedly, Christine found Dennis having an affair in her bedroom. Well, Carol says that she was in Christine's bedroom picking up her things when Lindsey drove up. Carol had just been describing an earlier night when Christine had said that she would tell Lindsey that Carol and Dennis were together when Lindsey called. Chris said she hoped that Lindsey didn't mind that Carol and Dennis would be alone together. Then, Christine showed up later and said that she felt she owed it to Lindsey to chaperone Carol and Dennis herself. Carol thought that Christine was worried about Carol being along with Dennis herself and not for Lindsey's sake.

Although Dennis wasn't mentioned in the incident with Lindsey and the car, I get the feeling the 2 were connected and Christine had her hands full with her problems, rather than thinking much about Carol and Lindsey. Michele

[Jessica]

One thing that's interesting to me is that, for people who had so many problems and tensions in their band, it seems that the members of FM spent a lot of time together. I mean, when they weren't recording or touring, they really didn't have any reason to see each other, but they did. At least, this book makes it sound as though they did.

[michelej1]

One thing that's interesting to me is that, for people who had so many problems and tensions in their band, it seems that the members of FM spent a lot of time together. I mean, when they weren't recording or touring, they really didn't have any reason to see each other, but they did. At least, this book makes it sound as though they did.

Well, it's kind of funny, because even though various ones have said about the other, "oh, we were never friends. We never socialized," they seemed to go to each other's houses for an occasional party at least. And they were at Eric Clapton's house and other industry functions together, but I guess after Mirage they didn't hang out anymore. It almost sounds like that if A Fine Mess hadn't come along, they hardly ever would have seen each other again. I guess there was real closeness in the beginning and it just waned. Michele

[Jessica]

Well, it's kind of funny, because even though various ones have said about the other, "oh, we were never friends. We never socialized," they seemed to go to each other's houses for an occasional party at least. And they were at Eric Clapton's house and other industry functions together, but I guess after Mirage they didn't hang out anymore. It almost sounds like that if A Fine Mess hadn't come along, they hardly ever would have seen each other again. I guess there was real closeness in the beginning and it just waned. Michele


Yeah. It does seem that, after the Mirage tour time period, you don't hear much about them socializing. Well, I don't think John and Mick ever stopped hanging out. And it always seemed that Christine kept in touch with Mick and possibly John. But, even after they went through these breakups and all this emotional turmoil, lamenting how they had to be together way too much when the wounds were still fresh, they continued to spend time together even when they didn't have to.

I think they all were more important to each other and cared more about each other than they've ever been willing to admit. JMO. I don't think The Dance would've happened if that weren't the case. Christine said, more or less, that she did it because she wanted to stop with "the five" on a positive note instead of a negative one. If all of that didn't mean a lot to her, she wouldn't have bothered. Of course, the importance they had to one another is why they also had the ability to hurt each other so much.

[Gailh]

Yeah. It does seem that, after the Mirage tour time period, you don't hear much about them socializing. Well, I don't think John and Mick ever stopped hanging out. And it always seemed that Christine kept in touch with Mick and possibly John. But, even after they went through these breakups and all this emotional turmoil, lamenting how they had to be together way too much when the wounds were still fresh, they continued to spend time together even when they didn't have to.

I think they all were more important to each other and cared more about each other than they've ever been willing to admit. JMO. I don't think The Dance would've happened if that weren't the case. Christine said, more or less, that she did it because she wanted to stop with "the five" on a positive note instead of a negative one. If all of that didn't mean a lot to her, she wouldn't have bothered. Of course, the importance they had to one another is why they also had the ability to hurt each other so much.

Very good points.

I'm not sure how close they all are now. Christine has said she still feels close to them, especially Mick and John. I don't know if she's in touch with Lindsey or Stevie. Stevie still think she lives in a castle! That sounds like she's never been there.

Gail

[macfan 57]

I'm not sure how close they all are now. Christine has said she still feels close to them, especially Mick and John. I don't know if she's in touch with Lindsey or Stevie. Stevie still think she lives in a castle! That sounds like she's never been there.

Gail

I believe the only time Stevie has been to England was when FM played those shows there about 3 years ago. They did all go out to dinner, but it doesn't sound like that dinner was at Christine's house.

When Chris did those ITM interviews, she said that she was in frequent contract with Mick & occasional contact with Stevie. It does sound like Chris & John do have some contact now days. I'd be surprised if she has any contact at all with Lindsey. They all have their own lives & families now, so that's the top priority.

[michelej1]

When Under the Skin came out, Lindsey said that he talks to Christine once a year, which is a lot more than I thought he talked to her anyway. He still fights with Stevie regularly, in the media if not in person. I guess he talks to Mick, whom he thinks is in "cahoots" with Stevie. And, I don't think he talks to John . . .

Stevie thinks that Christine lives in a castle and raises sheep or something. She is funny. Chris said she sometimes emails Stevie.

I think they all were more important to each other and cared more about each other than they've ever been willing to admit.

I think that their main problem is that they developed this love for each other, but they never found a way to express it outside of the music. They weren't family. They didn't really choose each other as friends. Yet, they lived on top of each other for years on end and were together more than they were with their families. So, this bond developed and it is familial, but they don't know really know how to express it, in those terms. They have never been able to translate that chemistry that they have musically into their personal lives. So . . .

I don't think the Dance would have happened if they didn't love each other either. Lindsey has compared them to the Eagles and remarked how the Eagles don't have the same caring. Although FM is known for its feuding, I do think they care. Stevie said on that Disney Going Home (I think) that even when it was the worst, it was still like family. I know John has said it was like having 2 brothers and 2sisters and that you're still a family even when you don't see each other.

I remember the first time Chris said she loved Stevie and Lindsey, right after Rumours. It was like it was a revelation to her. She was talking it out and was like, yeah I guess it is love. It seemed to come as a surprise to her.

In the SYW program, Lindsey said something about not having to have been able to admit they loved each other in a very long time. The tensions get in the way and there is hate sometimes and definitely anger, but it fades away and the residual affection abides.

I mean, what do you do when you have feelings for someone, but you really have nothing in common with them except music? They have this shared history and I think a shared sense of humor in many ways, but probably never developed communication techniques, except in song.

Of course, Mick is the exception. Mick is friends with everyone, past and present. As long as you don't sleep with Jenny, he's your pal for life.

Michele

[Jessica]

I think you nailed it down pretty well, Michele.



I don't want to start a whole topic on this, draw a lot of attention to it or make a big deal, but I have a question. Does anyone think that Chris had a little nip/tuck done sometime between Behind the Mask and The Dance? I mean, I thought she looked really good in the Behind the Mask tour footage I've seen. But, in The Dance video, she looks...different. Not necessarily better, just different.

[michelej1]

I don't want to start a whole topic on this, draw a lot of attention to it or make a big deal, but I have a question. Does anyone think that Chris had a little nip/tuck done sometime between Behind the Mask and The Dance? I mean, I thought she looked really good in the Behind the Mask tour footage I've seen. But, in The Dance video, she looks...different. Not necessarily better, just different.

Yeah, I think there was something done. Thank heavens though that when she did the ITM publicity she still looked good and natural and didn't resemble Joan Rivers or anything. And how does she stay so trim? She kept talking about cooking pasta for Dan. When I make a habit of cooking pasta, somehow I'm not able to fit in the size jeans that she's still wearing.

Michele

[Gailh]

I think you nailed it down pretty well, Michele.



I don't want to start a whole topic on this, draw a lot of attention to it or make a big deal, but I have a question. Does anyone think that Chris had a little nip/tuck done sometime between Behind the Mask and The Dance? I mean, I thought she looked really good in the Behind the Mask tour footage I've seen. But, in The Dance video, she looks...different. Not necessarily better, just different.

I would put it after Time and before The Dance

Gail

[Gailh]

Yeah, I think there was something done. Thank heavens though that when she did the ITM publicity she still looked good and natural and didn't resemble Joan Rivers or anything. And how does she stay so trim? She kept talking about cooking pasta for Dan. When I make a habit of cooking pasta, somehow I'm not able to fit in the size jeans that she's still wearing.

Michele

I think she does lead a fairly lifestyle these days. No drugs, no alcohol, good healthy food and walking the dogs three times a day.

I think that's one of the reasons why she doesn't want to go back to working with FM - she thinks she might sucked into that unhealthy lifestyle. I think that these days they're all healthier than they used to be.

Gail

[Jessica]

I thought Christine looked markedly better during the Tango-BTM period than she did around Mirage-Christine McVie. I think it was simply due to more flattering makeup and hairstyle. But, makeup and hairstyle alone cannot explain the change in her appearance for The Dance. You can see in the Tango vid that she is pretty thin, yet not as thin as she was in 1997-98 (or now). When women get to be the age she is now, they often look younger if they gain a few pounds. In those interviews for ITM, I swear her thighs looked about as big around as my forearm. She still looked good for her age, even if she was a little on the bony side. I did notice that she had her hair all in her eyes again. I've always had the urge to reach through the TV and brush it out of her face. Whatever work she had done prior to The Dance was very WELL done and subtle. She didn't look like she'd had anything else done since.

[Gailh]

I did notice that she had her hair all in her eyes again. I've always had the urge to reach through the TV and brush it out of her face. Whatever work she had done prior to The Dance was very WELL done and subtle. She didn't look like she'd had anything else done since.

The last picture of her that was published her hair is a little shorter and I think looks better than during ITM.

I agree that if she had some work done it was very good.

Gail

[Jessica]

The last picture of her that was published her hair is a little shorter and I think looks better than during ITM.

I agree that if she had some work done it was very good.

Gail

The thing that got me about that last picture of her was the lack of eyeliner! She is almost always seen wearing oodles of eyeliner. She doesn't really need it.

[jbrownsjr]

I love the Black and white photo of Christine during the Dance promo...

i like her hair in that too

[macfan 57]

I would put it after Time and before The Dance

Gail

Yes, check out her pictures in the Time booklet, then look at her Dance era photos. Something obviously happened during that time.

[macfan 57]

I thought Christine looked markedly better during the Tango-BTM period than she did around Mirage-Christine McVie. I think it was simply due to more flattering makeup and hairstyle.

I totally agree and I don't think it was just the makeup & hairstyle. From around 1982-84, I think she was still trying to recover from her time with Dennis Wilson. She was still doing drugs too at that time. In one of her ITM interviews, she said that she quit doing drugs in 1984. She just didn't look healthy during the early to mid 1980's. I remember I saw her in a TV interview just as Tango was coming out. I couldn't believe how fantastic she looked, so much better than earlier during the Mirage/solo period.

[macfan 57]

i like her hair in that too

Me too. That Dance era short haircut was her best hairstyle ever, in my opinion.

[nicepace]

Does anyone have any recent information as to whether Chris still smokes? I think I read that she started smoking again when she split up with Eddy Quintella, but that was quite a few years ago now. I'd like to think that her healthful lifestyle in the English countryside includes being a non-smoker.

[Jessica]

OK, this is one of my favorites. Her hair is out of her face!

http://i12.tinypic.com/506mxi0.jpg

[macfan 57]

Does anyone have any recent information as to whether Chris still smokes? I think I read that she started smoking again when she split up with Eddy Quintella, but that was quite a few years ago now. I'd like to think that her healthful lifestyle in the English countryside includes being a non-smoker.

I have no recent information, but I certainly hope that after ITM died down she tried once again to quit. She did quit once, she could certainly give it another try.

[Gailh]

I have no recent information, but I certainly hope that after ITM died down she tried once again to quit. She did quit once, she could certainly give it another try.


Well she would have some incentive now as we have a no smoking law in public places. good thing too - I use to hate coming out of a pub smelling like an ashtray.

her own home would be practically the only place she could smoke legally.

Gail

[nicepace]

Well she would have some incentive now as we have a no smoking law in public places. good thing too - I use to hate coming out of a pub smelling like an ashtray.
Gail

We have those laws in most states in the U.S. now too. Remember waking up the next morning after a concert in a smoky nightclub, with that horrid smoke clinging to hair and clothes? Absolutely disgusting. I hate to think of the amount of second hand smoke I inhaled during my pub-crawling youth.

[Gailh]

We have those laws in most states in the U.S. now too. Remember waking up the next morning after a concert in a smoky nightclub, with that horrid smoke clinging to hair and clothes? Absolutely disgusting. I hate to think of the amount of second hand smoke I inhaled during my pub-crawling youth.


God yes - absolutely foul.

We've only had our law in England since 1 July but so far most people seem to be complying with it.

Come on Christine give up the evil weed.

Gail

[Jessica]

Why did I think I'd read somewhere that she no longer smoked?

On another note, I'm glad everybody took the plastic surgery question well and didn't get all offended. I've had people just flip out at the mere suggestion of plastic surgery regarding other female celebrities past the age of 40. I certainly don't judge any woman who does it. It's understandable. As long as they don't end up like Joan Rivers, that is. I'm not a big fan of the collagen in the lips, though. That looks ridiculous.

[michelej1]

Why did I think I'd read somewhere that she no longer smoked?

Probably because in 1997 she said she quit 3 years earlier, but I guess the question is whether or not she fell off the wagon after The Dance.

Michele

[Gailh]

Probably because in 1997 she said she quit 3 years earlier, but I guess the question is whether or not she fell off the wagon after The Dance.

Michele

She did give up for quite a few years but then started again after her marriage broke down.

We don't know whether she's mananged to stop again. I hope she has.

Gail

[Gailh]

On another note, I'm glad everybody took the plastic surgery question well and didn't get all offended. I've had people just flip out at the mere suggestion of plastic surgery regarding other female celebrities past the age of 40. I certainly don't judge any woman who does it. It's understandable. As long as they don't end up like Joan Rivers, that is. I'm not a big fan of the collagen in the lips, though. That looks ridiculous.

I wouldn't judge anyone either. I think that you can take it too far and end up looking stupid. If Christine had some work done it was very good.

Gail

[aleuzzi]

I wouldn't judge anyone either. I think that you can take it too far and end up looking stupid. If Christine had some work done it was very good.

Gail

I think she looks great. One of my friends and fello band fan thinks she looks terrible. "I don't recognize her" she says. But I think she's focusing too much on the heavily airbrushed covers of The Dance and ITM. In those brief video clips on christinemcvie.com, she looks like her old and fabulous self. And I love the more recent pics of her where she's suntanned and wearing less makeup. Whichever way you slice it, she looks fantastic for being, what, 63?

[macfan 57]

Whichever way you slice it, she looks fantastic for being, what, 63?

I agree, although she just turned 64 this summer.;):D

[Gailh]

I think she looks great. One of my friends and fello band fan thinks she looks terrible. "I don't recognize her" she says. But I think she's focusing too much on the heavily airbrushed covers of The Dance and ITM. In those brief video clips on christinemcvie.com, she looks like her old and fabulous self. And I love the more recent pics of her where she's suntanned and wearing less makeup. Whichever way you slice it, she looks fantastic for being, what, 63?

The picture on the front cover of ITM was appalling. When I saw it for the first time I thought nice picture but who is it? I think she went on the amazing Photoshop diet - lose 30 years in one day :laugh:

the one on the back cover is much nicer and the one where she's standing outside what looks like a barn (possibly the studio) is really good.

Gail

[Jessica]

The picture on the front cover of ITM was appalling. When I saw it for the first time I thought nice picture but who is it? I think she went on the amazing Photoshop diet - lose 30 years in one day :laugh:

the one on the back cover is much nicer and the one where she's standing outside what looks like a barn (possibly the studio) is really good.

Gail

She looks like a thin Loretta Swit on the ITM cover. Ugh.

[David]

Dennis sounds like a jerk. Was he that rotten?

[michelej1]

What about Lindsey's comment that Brian Wilson had a crush on Chris, too? I've never heard anything about Brian and Chris, so I assume that she did not reciprocate Brian's interest. I just wonder if it was before, during, or after her romance with Dennis. I guess by that time, Brian was too far gone for her to even entertain the idea of a relationship, mentally fragile. Michele

[macfan 57]

What about Lindsey's comment that Brian Wilson had a crush on Chris, too? I've never heard anything about Brian and Chris, so I assume that she did not reciprocate Brian's interest. I just wonder if it was before, during, or after her romance with Dennis. I guess by that time, Brian was too far gone for her to even entertain the idea of a relationship, mentally fragile. Michele

Where did you hear Lindsey's comment about Brian Wilson having a crush on Chris? I posted a 1979 Melody Maker article some time ago. It was primarily about Dennis Wilson although Chris was in the article too. Dennis was quoted as saying that Brian liked Christine. He remarked that Brian didn't like his previous wife at all.

[macfan 57]

Dennis sounds like a jerk. Was he that rotten?

Apparently yes, especially when he was high which he probably was much of the time. Chris has said that she was obsessed with him.

And, welcome back to the Ledge, David.:)

[michelej1]

Where did you hear Lindsey's comment about Brian Wilson having a crush on Chris? I posted a 1979 Melody Maker article some time ago. It was primarily about Dennis Wilson although Chris was in the article too. Dennis was quoted as saying that Brian liked Christine. He remarked that Brian didn't like his previous wife at all.

In this Songwriters article, Lindsey went through the songs on Tusk and he said that when he was doing Save Me a Place, it was sort of Hawaiian the way they would chant "save . . . me . . . " and Brian Wilson told him that Bob Dylan would like that. Lindsey said, "I remember Brian Wilson was kind of hanging out then. He had a crush on Christine, and was not doing too great then." Actually, that gives me the time frame. This must have been before Tusk came out. So, Brian liked Christine before Dennis did. He got there first:lol: Brian was extremely talented, which I could see might interest Chris, but he couldn't even take care of himself at that point. It must have been hard to feel anything for him but pity.

As for Dennis, it's kind of funny that Chris said that Dennis threw her into the deep end both literally and figuratively, when we know that he ended up drowning. That "surf boy" theme just carried all the way through.

Michele

[Chrislit18]

I was a little surprised that she said she hadn't slept with Dennis Wilson, only that they were very good friends. Dennis was a womanizer & it is a little hard to believe that he would be "just friends" with any woman.;)

I thought the book was pretty interesting. I didn't find it boring at all. It was a bit more detailed & gossipy than Mick's book, which made it interesting.:D I tend to believe much of what she wrote. I have no reason not to. I don't think she portrayed Chris in a negative light. It sounds like she really did like her. Lindsey certainly came off looking horrible. The abuse didn't really surprise me since it's been hinted at by others before. The episode that CAH described at Christine's house between Lindsey & CAH is scary, to say the least. There must be something about Chris' house that makes Lindsey go a little crazy, what with this episode & the later Tango scene.;)

Regarding Chris, I liked the Granny Knickers story & Chris' reaction to Lindsey's Tusk look.:laugh:

By the way, I wonder if Chris has read the book or if she even knows the book exists.

I agree with everything you wrote about the book, I do think most of it was true, yet a bit exaggerated [sp?] at times. no specific example...

I laughed at so much of the stuff that was said, It seemed to me that CAH made it seem as though Chris liked to laugh and have a good time, and I think that of all the band members, it changed my opinion of Stevie the most.

The Dennis stories were absolutely hilarious though, he seemed like a fun guy, and by what CAH said, him and Chris must have been very compatible.