the definitive 200 albums

[JazmenFlowers]

I know we hate these kinds of lists, but it's always interesting to see them.
______________________

The National Association of Recording Merchandisers (NARM) and the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame have put together a list of 200 albums that should be in every music collection. As NARM president Jim Donio puts it, they are "albums that have consistently excited record buyers over the years and those that have the potential for continued success based on enduring popularity.... The inevitable debate about the 200 must-own albums will underscore just how much the music and the art form mean to everyone."

1. BEATLES - SGT. PEPPER'S LONELY HEARTS CLUB BAND

2. PINK FLOYD - DARK SIDE OF THE MOON

3. MICHAEL JACKSON - THRILLER

4. LED ZEPPELIN - LED ZEPPELIN IV

5. U2 - JOSHUA TREE

6. ROLLING STONES - EXILE ON MAIN STREET

7. CAROLE KING - TAPESTRY

8. BOB DYLAN - HIGHWAY '61 REVISITED

9. BEACH BOYS - PET SOUNDS

10. NIRVANA - NEVERMIND

11. PEARL JAM - TEN

12. BEATLES - ABBEY ROAD

13. SANTANA - SUPERNATURAL

14. METALLICA - METALLICA

15. BRUCE SPRINGSTEEN - BORN TO RUN

16. PRINCE - PURPLE RAIN

17. AC/DC - BACK IN BLACK

18. ROLLING STONES - LET IT BLEED

19. DOORS - DOORS

20. GRATEFUL DEAD - AMERICAN BEAUTY

21. SHANIA TWAIN - COME ON OVER

22. WHO - WHO'S NEXT

23. STEVIE WONDER - SONGS IN THE KEY OF LIFE

24. FLEETWOOD MAC - RUMOURS

25. PINK FLOYD - WALL

26. ALANIS MORISSETTE - JAGGED LITTLE PILL

27. NORAH JONES - COME AWAY WITH ME

28. EMINEM - MARSHALL MATHERS LP

29. OUTKAST - SPEAKERBOXX-LOVE BELOW

30. DR. DRE - CHRONIC

31. BEASTIE BOYS - LICENSED TO ILL

32. GUNS 'N ROSES - APPETITE FOR DESTRUCTION

33. DIXIE CHICKS - WIDE OPEN SPACES

34. MILES DAVIS - KIND OF BLUE

35. EAGLES - HOTEL CALIFORNIA

36. DEF LEPPARD - HYSTERIA

37. SOUNDTRACK - GREASE

38. MARVIN GAYE - WHAT'S GOING ON

39. BEATLES - WHITE ALBUM

40. SOUNDTRACK - SATURDAY NIGHT FEVER

41. JIMI HENDRIX - ARE YOU EXPERIENCED?

42. BEATLES - REVOLVER

43. BOSTON - BOSTON

44. BON JOVI - SLIPPERY WHEN WET

45. U2 - ACHTUNG BABY

46. WHITNEY HOUSTON - WHITNEY HOUSTON

47. LED ZEPPELIN - LED ZEPPELIN II

48. DAVE MATTHEWS - BAND CRASH

49. ROLLING STONES - STICKY FINGERS

50. GREEN DAY - DOOKIE

51. LED ZEPPELIN - HOUSES OF THE HOLY

52. JONI MITCHELL - BLUE

53. ELVIS PRESLEY - ELVIS PRESLEY AT SUN

54. AEROSMITH - TOYS IN THE ATTIC

55. LAURYN HILL - MISEDUCATION OF LAURYN HILL

56. BRUCE SPRINGSTEEN - BORN IN THE U.S.A.

57. 50 CENT - GET RICH OR DIE TRYIN'

58. AC/DC - HIGHWAY TO HELL

59. NOTORIOUS B.I.G. - LIFE AFTER DEATH

60. VAN HALEN - VAN HALEN

61. GREEN DAY - AMERICAN IDIOT

62. BLACK SABBATH - PARANOID

63. EMINEM - EMINEM SHOW

64. JEWEL - PIECES OF YOU

65. COLDPLAY - RUSH OF BLOOD TO THE HEAD

66. MEATLOAF - BAT OUT OF HELL

67. USHER - CONFESSIONS

68. KID ROCK - DEVIL WITHOUT A CAUSE

69. GEORGE HARRISON - ALL THINGS MUST PASS

70. BILLY JOEL - STRANGER

71. EAGLES HELL - FREEZES OVER

72. VAN MORRISON - MOONDANCE

73. REM - AUTOMATIC FOR THE PEOPLE

74. PHIL COLLINS - NO JACKET REQUIRED

75. METALLICA - MASTER OF PUPPETS

76. FAITH HILL - BREATHE

77. JOHNNY CASH - AT FOLSOM PRISON

78. JOHN COLTRANE - LOVE SUPREME

79. PINK FLOYD - WISH YOU WERE HERE

80. MICHAEL JACKSON - OFF THE WALL

81. MARVIN GAYE - LET'S GET IT ON

82. BOB SEGER - NIGHT MOVES

83. PAUL SIMON - GRACELAND

84. LINKIN PARK - HYBRID THEORY

85. PRINCE - 1999

86. DEF LEPPARD - PYROMANIA

87. JANET JACKSON - CONTROL

88. RED HOT CHILI PEPPERS - BLOOD SUGAR SEX MAGIK

89. DIRE STRAITS - BROTHERS IN ARMS

90. TUPAC - ALL EYEZ ON ME

91. MATCHBOX TWENTY - YOURSELF OR SOMEONE LIKE YOU

92. RED HOT CHILI PEPPERS - CALIFORNICATION

93. LED ZEPPELIN - PHYSICAL GRAFFITI

94. NELLY - COUNTRY GRAMMAR

95. CREED - HUMAN CLAY

96. CLASH - LONDON CALLING

97. CELINE DION - FALLING INTO YOU

98. NEIL YOUNG - HARVEST

99. SOUNDTRACK - DIRTY DANCING

100. DIXIE CHICKS - HOME

101. TOM PETTY - FULL MOON FEVER

102. VAN HALEN - 1984

103. SOUNDTRACK - TITANIC

104. CROSBY STILLS & NASH - DEJA VU

105. TLC - CRAZYSEXYCOOL

106. BECK - ODELAY

107. KENNY G - BREATHLESS

108. NWA. - STRAIGHT OUTTA COMPTON

109. SEX PISTOLS - NEVER MIND THE BOLLOCKS

110. BEATLES - RUBBER SOUL

111. RADIOHEAD - O.K. COMPUTER

112. SIMON & GARFUNKEL - BRIDGE OVER TROUBLE WATER

113. DIXIE CHICKS - FLY

114. METALLICA - AND JUSTICE FOR ALL

115. MICHAEL JACKSON - DANGEROUS

116. MARIAH CAREY - DAYDREAM

117. SOUNDTRACK - TOP GUN

118. ELTON JOHN - GOODBYE YELLOW BRICK ROAD

119. POLICE - SYNCHRONICITY

120. NO DOUBT - TRAGIC KINGDOM

121. ROLLING STONES - BEGGAR'S BANQUET

122. R KELLY - R

123. TOOL - LATERALUS

124. OASIS - WHAT'S THE STORY MORNING GLORY

125. BOB MARLEY - EXODUS

126. JOURNEY - ESCAPE

127. CHRISTINA AGUILERA - CHRISTINA AGUILERA

128. JAY-Z - BLUEPRINT

129. ALICIA KEYS - DIARY OF ALICIA KEYS

130. SOUNDTRACK - O BROTHER WHERE ART THOU?

131. CARS - CARS

132. ENYA - DAY WITHOUT RAIN

133. NATALIE COLE - UNFORGETTABLE WITH LOVE NATALIE COLE

134. SOUNDTRACK - FOOTLOOSE

135. LIONEL RICHIE - CAN'T SLOW DOWN

136. SARAH MCLACHLAN - SURFACING

137. BONNIE RAITT - NICK OF TIME

138. METALLICA - RIDE THE LIGHTNING

139. SHERYL CROW - TUESDAY NIGHT MUSIC CLUB

140. FRANK SINATRA - IN THE WEE SMALL HOURS

141. EARTH WIND FIRE - GRATITUDE

142. ZZ TOP - ELIMINATOR

143. WILLIE NELSON - RED HEADED STRANGER

144. JOHN LENNON - IMAGINE

145. TONI BRAXTON - TONI BRAXTON

146. ETTA JAMES - AT LAST

147. ELVIS PRESLEY - ELVIS PRESLEY

148. CAT STEVENS - TEA FOR THE TILLERMAN

149. SMASHING PUMPKINS - MELLON COLLIE & THE INFINITE SADNESS

150. DAVE BRUBECK - TIME OUT

151. JANET JACKSON - JANET

152. QUEEN - A NIGHT AT THE OPERA

153. OZZY OSBOURNE - BLIZZARD OF OZZ

154. WILL SMITH - BIG WILLIE STYLE

155. PRINCE - SIGN OF THE TIMES

156. PUBLIC ENEMY - IT TAKES A NATION OF MILLIONS TO HOLD US BACK

157. BOB DYLAN - BLOOD ON THE TRACKS

158. GEORGE MICHAEL - FAITH

159. BOYZ II MEN - COOLEYHIGHHARMONY

160. DESTINY'S CHILD - WRITING'S ON THE WALL

161. JAY-Z - BLACK ALBUM

162. AVRIL LAVIGNE - LET GO

163. FUGEES - SCORE

164. MADONNA - LIKE A VIRGIN

165. LED ZEPPELIN - LED ZEPPELIN

166. STEVIE RAY VAUGHN - TEXAS FLOOD

167. STONE TEMPLE PILOTS - CORE

168. ORIGINAL CAST - PHANTOM OF THE OPERA - HIGHLIGHTS

169. JETHRO TULL - AQUALUNG

170. TUPAC - ME AGAINST THE WORLD

171. DAVID BOWIE - RISE AND FALL OF ZIGGY STARDUST

172. SHAKIRA - LAUNDRY SERVICE

173. SOUNDTRACK - FORREST GUMP

174. AL GREEN - CALL ME

175. CURTIS MAYFIELD - SUPERFLY

176. LIVE - THROWING COPPER

177. GEORGE BENSON - BREEZIN'

178. WHITE STRIPES - WHITE BLOOD CELLS

179. LYNYRD SKYNYRD - PRONOUNCED LEH-NERD SKIN-ERD

180. SADE - DIAMOND LIFE

181. FLEETWOOD MAC - FLEETWOOD MAC

182. PAUL MCCARTNEY & WINGS - BAND ON THE RUN

183. BEYONCE - DANGEROUSLY IN LOVE

184. ANITA BAKER - RAPTURE

185. NAS - IIIMATIC

186. BARBRA STREISAND - A STAR IS BORN

187. EARTH WIND FIRE - THAT'S THE WAY OF THE WORLD

188. ANITA BAKER - RHYTHM OF LOVE

189. JAY-Z - IN MY LIFETIME VOL 1

190. LL COOL J - MAMA SAID KNOCK YOU OUT

191. STEELY DAN - AJA

192. WILLIE NELSON - STARDUST

193. ARETHA FRANKLIN - SPARKLE

194. ANDREA BOCELLI - ANDREA

195. BOB DYLAN - BRINGING IT ALL BACK HOME

196. LUTHER VANDROSS - NEVER TOO MUCH

197. U2 - ALL THAT YOU CAN'T LEAVE BEHIND

198. RUSH - 2112

199. OUTKAST - AQUEMINI

200. GRAND FUNK RAILROAD - WE'RE AN AMERICAN BAND

[strandinthewind]

I am cool with the ones higher than Rumors, with the exception of 21. SHANIA TWAIN - COME ON OVER.

I am also shocked at how low Houses of the Holy is :eek:

[danax6]

I am cool with the ones higher than Rumors, with the exception of 21. SHANIA TWAIN - COME ON OVER.
I was going to say the same thing. I enjoyed that album, but does it really deserve to be in the top 25? I know it sold a gazillion copies, but still...

It's interesting that the FM white album is on here. In Europe that album never makes the list, instead Tango in the Night is always present.

[JazmenFlowers]

Avril, Usher, Will Smith, Jay-Z, Nas, Shakira? wtf? are you kidding me?

and, tbQh, Nirvana is overrated.

the rest of the list I'm ok with. of course, they should have added Bella Donna and/or a Heart album and/or a Pat Benatar album.

[strandinthewind]

I think in some ways TITN is an improtant record. It was sort of the height of their 80's sound and certainly CM's most commercial moment, and gloriously so.

[strandinthewind]

I think they are going for defining records. Certainly, Nirvana defined most of the 90's. Avril L. is a defining moment as well, even though I do not care for her that much.

[danax6]

Avril, Usher, Will Smith, Jay-Z, Nas, Shakira? wtf? are you kidding me?LL Cool J, Tupac, Beyonce, Toni Braxton? The WTF list is endless.

and, tbQh, Nirvana is overrated.I don't really agree, sorry. It's a very solid album.

I love that the Forrest Gump soundtrack is on there. Gawd, when I first saw that movie I was blown away not only by the movie itself, but the music too.

[LiamMcConville]

Holy Christ. If Alanis beat out FM I would've had to kill someone. Alanis is an atrocity to music. She's awful.

[JazmenFlowers]

LL Cool J, Tupac, Beyonce, Toni Braxton? The WTF list is endless.

I don't really agree, sorry. It's a very solid album.

I love that the Forrest Gump soundtrack is on there. Gawd, when I first saw that movie I was blown away not only by the movie itself, but the music too.
I actually think Toni Braxton does belong on there. the rest? maybe not so much.

and I wasn't saying Nirvana doesn't belong on there, it was just ~an aside~ that I think they're overrated. maybe they do belong on the list, maybe not, doesn't twist my knickers either way, I was just sayin.

[danax6]

I actually think Toni Braxton does belong on there. the rest? maybe not so much.I think she was more popular in the States than here, so you might be right. I can't think of anything defining she did for this continent.

and I wasn't saying Nirvana doesn't belong on there, it was just ~an aside~ that I think they're overrated. maybe they do belong on the list, maybe not, doesn't twist my knickers either way, I was just sayin.I know you were. I was just saying that I don't think they're overrated. Besides, like Strandie said, they did define the 90s, for that reason alone they deserve to be on there.

[rbs3676]

I think REVOLVER and LONDON CALLING should have both charted higher. Excellent releases from start to finish, those two.

Glad that TOYS IN THE ATTIC made the list ~ that's SUCH a great record...

on edit: OK COMPUTER is one of my all time favorites, as well.

rbs

[irishgrl]

What about John Mellencamp? (Uh-Huh)

[JazmenFlowers]

I think she was more popular in the States than here, so you might be right. I can't think of anything defining she did for this continent.

I know you were. I was just saying that I don't think they're overrated. Besides, like Strandie said, they did define the 90s, for that reason alone they deserve to be on there.
true true.

[strandinthewind]

true true.

I think Alanis was the same. I remember when she came out everyone was like - this is some serious angst LOL. Avril L. continued in that thread and IMO was not really as defining; she was more of an also ran.

[danax6]

I think Alanis was the same. I remember when she came out everyone was like - this is some serious angst LOL. Avril L. continued in that thread and IMO was not really as defining; she was more of an also ran.Avril is blah, but I do love Alanis. My sis and I refer to it as 'angry clitrock', and it's perfect for when, well, in women's cases, a lot of things. :laugh:

[strandinthewind]

. . . 'angry clitrock' . . . .

OMG - I LOVE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:blob1: :blob1: :blob1:

[JWS]

Frank Sinatra at #140 seems very out of place on this list. :confused:

[irishgrl]

where the heck is Janis Joplin? Cheap Thrills?

[HejiraNYC]

Faith Hill? Dave Matthews? Chicks with Dix... er... Dixie Chicks twice? White Stripes? Celine Dion? Will Smith?? Kenny G??????? I'd throw in one token piece of garbage (Shania Twain), but that's just unfathomable. What about Yes's Fragile? Cream's Disraeli Gears? Derek and the Dominos? Carly Simon's No Secrets?? Rolling Stones's Tattoo You? And nothing by Dolly?? And Rush's Moving Pictures should be on there instead of 2112...

[carrie721]

LL Cool J, Tupac, Beyonce, Toni Braxton? The WTF list is endless.

step off tupac, dawg. you may not like rap but that doesn't mean he doesn't belong on the list.

[Chrislit18]

step off tupac, dawg. you may not like rap but that doesn't mean he doesn't belong on the list.

yeah, him and B.I.G [was he on the list...didnt notice.] belong on that list. they were some of the best rappers of all time, and I dont even like rap, but I will admit to that.
does 50 cent belong on that list though :shrug:

I would have rather had Tusk or TITN than the While album IMO, but I was glad to see Rumours in the top 25...and the Beatles at number 1...

[mikeschmike]

I suppose Janis didn't make the list so that they could make room for timeless albums like the Titanic and Dirty Dancing soundtracks.

She's Like the Wind > Peice of My Heart????

[irishgrl]

I suppose Janis didn't make the list so that they could make room for timeless albums like the Titanic and Dirty Dancing soundtracks.

She's Like the Wind > Peice of My Heart????
thats gotta be it :shrug: say! we're not arguing! huzzah!

[JazmenFlowers]

She's Like the Wind > Peice of My Heart????
but didn't you know Patrick Swayze totally pwn3d that song. :mad:

[mikeschmike]

but didn't you know Patrick Swayze totally pwn3d that song. :mad:

How would I know? He's outta my leeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaague.

[carrie721]

i am surprised that the dixie chicks are on their twice, especially with those two choices. i guess home made bluegrass popular for a minute, but if anything, i'd put taking the long way on there long before the other two.

where is the byrds - sweetheart of the rodeo? it's only the basis for all country/rock that's come out over the last 40 years :rolleyes:

i'll have to think about this some more.

[Sarah]

dr dre- chronic ftw.

though, one of those eminem discs should have been taken off and dr dre - chronic 2001 added. that disc was way better than em could ever begin to hope to be.

i like RAP. i hate hip hop and radio rap. there is some seriously good stuff out there, and all of it gets blanketed because of all the blaaaaang **** on TV and radio these days.

EDIT - where the hell is snoop on this list?!!!!

[carrie721]

dr dre- chronic ftw.

though, one of those eminem discs should have been taken off and dr dre - chronic 2001 added. that disc was way better than em could ever begin to hope to be.

i like RAP. i hate hip hop and radio rap. there is some seriously good stuff out there, and all of it gets blanketed because of all the blaaaaang **** on TV and radio these days.

EDIT - where the hell is snoop on this list?!!!! :angry:

amen dawg.

personally i'd replace all eyez on me with 2pacalypse now. or maybe 7 day theory. but i'm happy they included him.

[Sarah]

amen dawg.

personally i'd replace all eyez on me with 2pacalypse now. or maybe 7 day theory. but i'm happy they included him.

2pacalypse now! that's the realla right there.

tbh, i bet you can get most of these 200 albums using that google thing from the paste thread. i'm re-dl-ing (awkward) chronic 2001 now, cuz my disc is scratched to hell.

[strandinthewind]

I suppose Janis didn't make the list so that they could make room for timeless albums like the Titanic and Dirty Dancing soundtracks.

She's Like the Wind > Peice of My Heart????

Did those sountracks and movies not define music and movies for years? I think they did. I am not all that crazy about them. But, they were defining :shrug: I think people often make that mistake when they see a cool album not on there. The standard is "definitive."

But, I agree JJ and/or Big Brother should have been on there somewhere.

[danax6]

step off tupac, dawg. you may not like rap but that doesn't mean he doesn't belong on the list.Yes, I posted that before I realized they were looking for definitive albums, not quality ones.

[carrie721]

Yes, I posted that before I realized they were looking for definitive albums, not quality ones.

that's low :p :p :p

[strandinthewind]

Yes, I posted that before I realized they were looking for definitive albums, not quality ones.

The two are not mutually exclusive :shrug:

[carrie721]

The two are not mutually exclusive :shrug:

esp. not in this case. if rap isn't your bag, it makes it difficult/impossible to judge a rap album's artistic merits. :shrug:

[strandinthewind]

esp. not in this case. if rap isn't your bag, it makes it difficult/impossible to judge a rap album's artistic merits. :shrug:

Defining a quality record is subjective. Dirty Dancing brought mindless joy to tens of millions of people :shrug: Ditto for rap, though many claim rap to be deepr in meaning.

[Sarah]

Ditto for rap, though many claim rap to be deepr in meaning.

A lot of rap is. You just have to listen to it enough to recognize what is being said and then realize the context of the story. There are a lot of dudes just spilling their life's stories, and it's socially interesting to learn about how people outside of your immediate community live. Alas, many people won't get over the "language barrier" or write it off as thug before even attempting to understand.

[carrie721]

A lot of rap is. You just have to listen to it enough to recognize what is being said and then realize the context of the story. There are a lot of dudes just spilling their life's stories, and it's socially interesting to learn about how people outside of your immediate community live. Alas, many people won't get over the "language barrier" or write it off as thug before even attempting to understand.

the language barrier is alive and real. how long till someone pipes up and says ebonics speakers are lazy or stupid?

[danax6]

The two are not mutually exclusive :shrug:Why? Just because a certain album defined an era or was responsible for turning the music world into another direction, doesn't necessarily mean that it was of superior quality. Right? I realize that most of it does come down to a matter of taste, but even albums can be categorized as great and not so great, despite how many were sold. Lindsey would tell you he thinks Tusk is far superior to Rumours, yet Rumours always ends up high on these lists because it happened to have sold a billion copies.

Same with movies. Since you brought up Dirty Dancing... I'd say that was definitely one of the defining movies of the 80s, but technically the movie isn't all that great. The acting, for instance, is far from top notch.

[carrie721]

Why? Just because a certain album defined an era or was responsible for turning the music world into another direction, doesn't necessarily mean that it was of superior quality. Right?

he's not saying they always go hand in hand. just that popular albums can't automatically be written off as artistically void because of their popularity.

[strandinthewind]

Why? Just because a certain album defined an era or was responsible for turning the music world into another direction, doesn't necessarily mean that it was of superior quality. Right? I realize that most of it does come down to a matter of taste, but even albums can be categorized as great and not so great, despite how many were sold. Lindsey would tell you he thinks Tusk is far superior to Rumours, yet Rumours always ends up high on these lists because it happened to have sold a billion copies.

Same with movies. Since you brought up Dirty Dancing... I'd say that was definitely one of the defining movies of the 80s, but technically the movie isn't all that great. The acting, for instance, is far from top notch.

I think you just made my point :laugh:

Again, the test here was defining - clearly Dirty Dancing was that. Interestingly, Tusk was not, no matter the quality. Rumours, IMO, was both great quality and defining. So, it is possible to be both.

[danax6]

he's not saying they always go hand in hand. just that popular albums can't automatically be written off as artistically void because of their popularity.Okay, I was a little lost. I need to lay off the cold medicine and then read this thread again from the start. :laugh:

[strandinthewind]

Okay, I was a little lost. I need to lay off the cold medicine and then read this thread again from the start. :laugh:

Lord Child - mine in worse today. I feel like I have a spike going through my head :mad:

[carrie721]

Okay, I was a little lost. I need to lay off the cold medicine and then read this thread again from the start. :laugh:

get with it belgian :D

just kidding - feel better :xoxo:

[irishgrl]

the language barrier is alive and real. how long till someone pipes up and says ebonics speakers are lazy or stupid?
personally, I dont appreciate the Gangsta attitude toward women. sorry :shrug:

[irishgrl]

Did those sountracks and movies not define music and movies for years? I think they did. I am not all that crazy about them. But, they were defining :shrug: I think people often make that mistake when they see a cool album not on there. The standard is "definitive."

But, I agree JJ and/or Big Brother should have been on there somewhere.
Yez. and Iron Butterfly too. Whether you liked it or not, it was a DEFINING album, as was Steppenwolf, Born to Be Wild......Did that make the list?

What about HAIR???????? A-QWAR-EEE-USSSSSS!

[carrie721]

personally, I dont appreciate the Gangsta attitude toward women. sorry :shrug:

that's different from saying you think they're stupid because of their dialect - that's racist thought, IMO, and that's what i take issue with.

[irishgrl]

that's different from saying you think they're stupid because of their dialect - that's racist thought, IMO, and that's what i take issue with.
well, I didnt say that but you gotta admit, it certainly isnt ROCKET SCIENCE :D

seriously, think about it, that sort of language barrier is REAL, those folks are not going to be impressing any fortune 500 companies with their intellect if they cant enunciate or speak proper grammar.....and thats not racist at all. If you want to interact with the business community (for example) you have to present a business-like attitude.

[carrie721]

well, I didnt say that but you gotta admit, it certainly isnt ROCKET SCIENCE :D

seriously, think about it, that sort of language barrier is REAL, those folks are not going to be impressing any fortune 500 companies with their intellect if they cant enunciate or speak proper grammar.....and thats not racist at all. If you want to interact with the business community (for example) you have to present a business-like attitude.

well, the difference in grammar between standard english and black vernacular english isn't a case of laziness - that was my original point. BVE is quite different from standard english, and it's consistent in those differences. there's a shared vocabulary, but the grammatical differences are so great it really could be considered its own language. you wouldn't call someone who spoke spanish or french but not english stupid, right? they are speaking proper grammar within their own dialect, their dialect just isn't standard english.

actually this is a topic i think you'd have a lot of interest in, as a fan of the underdog. inner-city kids are not being given the tools to properly learn standard english, which, as you said, puts them at a disadvantage. it's a shame because there are solutions out there.

[GypsySorcerer]

well, the difference in grammar between standard english and black vernacular english isn't a case of laziness - that was my original point. BVE is quite different from standard english, and it's consistent in those differences. there's a shared vocabulary, but the grammatical differences are so great it really could be considered its own language. you wouldn't call someone who spoke spanish or french but not english stupid, right? they are speaking proper grammar within their own dialect, their dialect just isn't standard english.


Precisely. BVE is a valid dialect. "Why can't they talk right?" is simply an underhanded way of saying, "Why can't they talk white?"

[carrie721]

Precisely. BVE is a valid dialect. "Why can't they talk right?" is simply an underhanded way of saying, "Why can't they talk white?"

thank you! amen! :wavey:

[irishgrl]

well, the difference in grammar between standard english and black vernacular english isn't a case of laziness - that was my original point. BVE is quite different from standard english, and it's consistent in those differences. there's a shared vocabulary, but the grammatical differences are so great it really could be considered its own language. you wouldn't call someone who spoke spanish or french but not english stupid, right? they are speaking proper grammar within their own dialect, their dialect just isn't standard english.

actually this is a topic i think you'd have a lot of interest in, as a fan of the underdog. inner-city kids are not being given the tools to properly learn standard english, which, as you said, puts them at a disadvantage. it's a shame because there are solutions out there.
do you have some links? I'd be happy to investigate :shrug:

And, for better or worse, the better your grammar/diction/presentation, the farther you're going to go. There are plenty of inner city kids that chose to rise above the vernacular and assimilate a more "educated" persona. You dont hear any doctors or lawyers speaking ebonics. sorry.

[carrie721]

do you have some links? I'd be happy to investigate :shrug:

And, for better or worse, the better your grammar/diction/presentation, the farther you're going to go. There are plenty of inner city kids that chose to rise above the vernacular and assimilate a more "educated" persona. You dont hear any doctors or lawyers speaking ebonics. sorry.

not handy :sorry: . i used to but i lost my bookmarks a while back. all i have on hand is a paper i wrote about it, i can send that to you :shrug:

and i'm not disagreeing with you. i'm not saying there aren't inner city kids who haven't risen to the challenge, but when you look at test scores, it's easy to see those kids are being ignored.

[strandinthewind]

. . . those folks are not going to be impressing any fortune 500 companies with their intellect if they cant enunciate or speak proper grammar . . . .

Actually, three of the larger F500's seemingly love that dialect as it makes them hendreds of millions if not billions a year :shrug:

[irishgrl]

I dont know if Ebonics qualifies as a legit dialect or not under this definition:

4 How do linguists decide these questions?

The language vs. dialect question is difficult even within linguistics. Linguists usually rely on a criterion called mutual intelligibility to decide the question in scientific terms: if A and B speak different language systems, but can understand each other when each is speaking their characteristic language system, they are speaking dialects of the same language. If they cannot, they are speaking different languages. http://cla.calpoly.edu/~jrubba/Ebonics.html

[irishgrl]

Actually, three of the larger F500's seemingly love that dialect as it makes them hendreds of millions if not billions a year :shrug:
are you referring to the music business? I'd hardly qualify the money they get from Rap music an endorsement of Ebonics......

[irishgrl]

not handy :sorry: . i used to but i lost my bookmarks a while back. all i have on hand is a paper i wrote about it, i can send that to you :shrug:

and i'm not disagreeing with you. i'm not saying there aren't inner city kids who haven't risen to the challenge, but when you look at test scores, it's easy to see those kids are being ignored.
that may very well be true, but IMO, their use of Ebonics may hamper them somewhat since the test language isnt in Ebonics....

I think that when a certain language (such as English) is considered the PRIMARY language of a nation, whether or not you speak it at home, it behooves you, if you expect to rise above, to pay attention to what will get you there, be it language or whatever. I'd say the same thing about all the Hispanics that cry about forms being in Spanish or Hmongs that want forms in Hmong etc.....in my line of work, especially in CA, we've accomodated foreigners to the point that its costing taxpayers BILLIONS to make it possible for non-english speakers to apply for public assistance. Personally, it makes me sick/

[GypsySorcerer]

that may very well be true, but IMO, their use of Ebonics may hamper them somewhat since the test language isnt in Ebonics....


Test language is white, middle class speak. :shrug: There's tons of articles out there on the bias in standardized tests.

[carrie721]

that may very well be true, but IMO, their use of Ebonics may hamper them somewhat since the test language isnt in Ebonics....

that's my point though ... these kids need to be taught standard english using ESL techniques so they're working with the same tools as the kids living in more economically prosperous areas. for the kids, use of ebonics isn't a choice, it's their native tongue.

I think that when a certain language (such as English) is considered the PRIMARY language of a nation, whether or not you speak it at home, it behooves you, if you expect to rise above, to pay attention to what will get you there, be it language or whatever. I'd say the same thing about all the Hispanics that cry about forms being in Spanish or Hmongs that want forms in Hmong etc.....in my line of work, especially in CA, we've accomodated foreigners to the point that its costing taxpayers BILLIONS to make it possible for non-english speakers to apply for public assistance. Personally, it makes me sick/

it certainly is wise to learn the language of the country you're living in, you'll get no argument from me there.

[irishgrl]

Test language is white, middle class speak. :shrug: There's tons of articles out there on the bias in standardized tests.
BUT: the workaday world is WHITE MIDDLE CLASS. Thats not a BIAS, thats a REALITY. if you want to succed, you CONFORM to what brings you success.

there's no inherent bias there, only established practice. Are you expecting the business world to "dumb down?" Success is HARD WORK. it isnt handed to you, you EARN it. Its too freakin expensive to cater to every dialect in this melting pot of a country. SORRY. We have a recognized language and, again, it behooves everyone who wants to get AHEAD to LEARN it. Thats not bias, thats not racism, thats just REALITY. If I was Hungarian or Lithuanian or African, I'd still need to learn ENGLISH if I expected to prosper in America.

[strandinthewind]

are you referring to the music business? I'd hardly qualify the money they get from Rap music an endorsement of Ebonics......

Yes, the white guys in the music business want the rap stars, they make the money.

[irishgrl]

that's my point though ... these kids need to be taught standard english using ESL techniques so they're working with the same tools as the kids living in more economically prosperous areas. for the kids, use of ebonics isn't a choice, it's their native tongue.



it certainly is wise to learn the language of the country you're living in, you'll get no argument from me there.
agreed, Carrie, in my work, we do just that. we have a very active/vital Hmong community that contributes quite a lot to the community at large but you can bet that we place all eligible candidates into the ESL classes to HELP them succeed. and they DO. They WANT to assimilate.

I certainly wouldnt go to Thailand and expect everyone to speak english to accomodate me.....

[irishgrl]

Yes, the white guys in the music business want the rap stars, they make the money.
personally, I think that is going to change. call it a hunch, but I think that Rap is not as potent as it was in the 90's.

[strandinthewind]

personally, I think that is going to change. call it a hunch, but I think that Rap is not as potent as it was in the 90's.

Could be - but it is still a huge money maker :shrug:

Can rap regain its crown?

By Steve Jones, USA TODAY
Not long ago, rap dominated album sales charts. Now, the music that has been a driving creative and commercial force in American culture is struggling to get its swagger back.
The music industry is suffering across-the-board drops in CD sales, but rap is in a steeper slide: This year, rap sales are down 33% from 2006, twice the decline for the industry overall, according to Nielsen SoundScan. Five years ago, Eminem's album The Eminem Show was atop the Billboard chart, on its way to becoming the runaway best-selling album that year, with 7.6 million copies. Since then, no rap album has sold as well.

Established rap stars no longer are sure things in sales. During the past nine months, Jay-Z, Ludacris, Snoop Dogg, Diddy and Nas released albums, but only those by Jay-Z and Ludacris have sold at least 1 million copies in the USA, and only Diddy is still on the charts.

Rap's decline can be traced to a range of factors, including marketing strategies that have de-emphasized album sales in favor of selling less-lucrative single songs and short versions of those singles as ring tones for cellphones. But more important to the industry, there are signs that many music-buying Americans — particularly the young, largely white audience that can make a difference between modest and blockbuster sales — are tiring of rappers' emphasis on "gangsta" attitudes, explicit lyrics and tales of street life and conspicuous consumption.

Within the rap industry, there's a growing debate about whether years of rampant commercialism — Snoop Dogg now endorses Pony sneakers; 50 Cent peddles grape-flavored vitamin water — have drained credibility and creativity out of a once-vibrant genre of music. And there's concern that rap, also known as hip-hop, has reached an evolutionary plateau: After more than a quarter-century on the charts, it's no longer the radical newcomer.

Rap pioneer KRS-One, who just released Hip Hop Lives with fellow legend Marley Marl, offers a blunt explanation.

"The music is garbage," he says. "What has happened over the past few years is that we have traded art for money, simple and plain, and the public is not stupid."

Chuck Creekmur, co-founder of hip-hop news website Allhiphop.com, says rap once was known for creative storytelling and clever rhymes, but now is being undermined by a lack of both.

"A lot of these albums now are looking to duplicate the success" of whatever is hot at the moment, he says. "There is a lack of variety."

An industry force no more

Whatever's causing consumers to tune out, it's clear that rap no longer dominates the music industry. In 2006, rap sold 59.1 million albums, down 21% from 2005 and 27% from 2004. Sales are trailing those for country albums (75 million) and heavy metal (61.6 million) — genres that rap formerly overshadowed.

In 2006, for the first time in five years, no rap albums were among the year's 10 biggest sellers, a list led by the soundtrack to Disney's High School Musical, which sold 3.7 million copies. Compare that with 2003, when 50 Cent's Get Rich or Die Tryin' ranked No. 1 with 6.5 million copies.

This year's top-selling albums thus far are by American Idol rocker Chris Daughtry's band and jazz chanteuse Norah Jones.

The rap industry is pinning hopes on 50 Cent's Curtis, due Sept. 4, and Kanye West's Graduation Day, expected in late August, as well as releases by Eminem and Dr. Dre that could arrive before the end of the year.

But those albums may not be enough to salvage the sales numbers for this year, and it's unclear whether 50 Cent or Eminem can match their past sales.

A genre is born

Hip-hop was born out of DJ-hosted block parties in the Bronx, N.Y., in the early 1970s and evolved with emcees "rapping" over the beats the DJs played.

The genre hit the Top 40 with the Sugar Hill Gang's Rapper's Delight in 1979.

Rap soon became, as Public Enemy's Chuck D described it, "the CNN of black culture," encompassing everything from party tales to political commentaries, especially from the view of poor and disaffected urban youths.

Rap found an audience not only in cities but in mostly white suburbs, as well.

By the 1990s, a harder-edged version of rap that glorified gang life began to dominate music and influence youth culture. Its songs and videos typically depict violence and drug dealers awash in diamonds and platinum jewelry, champagne and scantily clad women.

Rap became a multibillion-dollar-a-year global industry, influencing fashion, lifestyles and language while selling everything from SUVs to personal computers.

Rap's declining sales haven't escaped the attention of its kingpins. Declaring that hip-hop needed saving, Jay-Z ended a three-year retirement in November with his CD Kingdom Come, in which he essentially cast himself as Superman trying to save hip-hop.

A month later, Nas decried rap's lack of originality on his disc Hip HopIs Dead:

"Everybody sound the same, commercialize the game / Reminiscin' when it wasn't all business / They forgot where it started / So we all gather here for the dearly departed."

Rap may not be dead, but it's significantly weakened, in part by its own doing, music analysts say.

The industry's longtime strategy of pushing singles to sell albums has backfired in the digital age, says Felicia Palmer, president of 4Control Media and founder of the hip-hop news website SOHH.com.

Digital sales have outstripped CD sales, but not yet to a degree that compensates for the price difference between a 99-cent download and a $19.99 CD.

A just-released survey by the website found 82% of nearly 700 respondents are purchasing fewer albums than in previous years, and 67% acknowledge that they have illicitly downloaded albums rather than pay for them. One reason: 69% say they're "not inspired by many albums."

"People have gotten smart and know that (record companies) usually put out the two best singles, and the rest of the album is usually garbage," Palmer says.

Labels need to do more to help artists build their fan bases with promotional tours, which help consumers buy into the performer and not just a song, says Michael "Blue" Williams, who manages Outkast and other urban acts.

"People like hot music, but we are still not making artists who matter across the board," Williams says. "So while the labels are screaming that the sky is falling, they are trapped in their own vicious cycle of having to chase each single."

Promoting singles means getting favorable airplay, and that's more difficult now that hip-hop isn't the "only contemporary music that matters," as it was just a few years ago, says Sean Ross of Edison Media Research.

"Three years ago, you wouldn't have wanted to be a Top 40 station playing Bright Lights by (pop/rockers) Matchbox Twenty while your competitor was playing Get Low by (rapper) Lil Jon," Ross says.

"Now, Top 40 has Daughtry and Gwen Stefani, as well as a lot of quasi hip-hop from artists like Fergie and the Pussycat Dolls that, for some listeners, fill the same need as the real thing."

The real thing may no longer be real enough.

Glenn Peoples, founder and editor of music industry blog Coolfer.com, says: "A lot of people who used to listen to rap are now listening to rock. Rock is really strong right now."

'The public has made a choice'

Part of hip-hop's attraction has been the assumed authenticity of its lyrics and artists, but now, many younger listeners "believe that so much of what the mainstream (rap) industry does is orchestrated," says Bakari Kitwana, author of the books The Hip Hop Generation and Why White Kids Love Hip Hop. "I don't think they have a lot of confidence in the music the industry is producing."

For years, increasing sales of rap albums effectively muted protests about some songs' promotion of misogyny, racism and violence. Now, dwindling receipts and fading interest in rap have provided what some in the industry see as an opportunity to rethink content.

"The public has made a choice," KRS-One says. "They're saying, 'We do not want the nonsense that we see and hear on radio, and we are not putting our money there.' Rap music is being boycotted by the American public because of the images that we are putting forward."

The rising angst about rap lyrics was spotlighted this spring during the fallout over radio talk-show host Don Imus' smearing of the Rutgers University women's basketball team. Imus called team members "hos," then later noted in his defense that the word is commonly used in rap songs to describe women.

Soon after, hip-hop mogul Russell Simmons called a meeting of music industry executives. His Hip-Hop Summit Action Network later recommended that the rap industry voluntarily delete or bleep out offensive terms for broadcast.

Such efforts have drawn mixed reactions from rappers.

Master P, who built his multimillion-dollar No Limit Records empire on gangsta rap in the '90s, announced plans to start a new label, Take A Stand Records, with his son Romeo. He says he has been part of the problem and now wants to be part of the solution with clean, positive music.

That idea was derided by 50 Cent, who said he has no intention of cleaning up his lyrics.

"Music is a mirror, and hip-hop is a reflection of the environment we grew up in," he said at a news conference.

"If I ask you to paint a picture of the American flag and not use the color red, you're going to have a difficult time."

A new business model

Content questions aside, rap faces the same challenge that has alarmed much of the music industry: how to adapt to the digital revolution.

"What we have to do is figure out what the new music business is," says Kevin Liles, executive vice president of Warner Music Group, home to artists such as DJ Quik, Lil Scrappy and E-40.

"There was a time when an artist like a Jay-Z or DMX or 50 Cent would sell 4 million or 5 million CDs. But there's a new climate. Artists like Young Jeezy might sell 2 million albums, but 6 million ring tones."

Recent sales by rap star Mims reflect the problems facing the industry. His single This Is Why I'm Hot has done well this year, selling 634,000 downloads and 1.9 million ring tones, the 2007 leader in ring tones so far. But the album that contains This Is Why I'm Hot hasn't been so hot, selling only 231,000 copies. Music Is My Savior is No. 100 on Billboard's albums chart 11 weeks after its release.

Rap's early stars, from Grandmaster Flash to Public Enemy and LL Cool J, "touched on humor, politics, ghetto life and realities they faced," says music consultant Tom Vickers. "Rap has gradually degenerated from an art form into a ring tone. It's a hip catchphrase or a musical riff with a short shelf life. It has a novelty element that captures the listener's imagination, but it's not a song. It won't build a career. That's why we're seeing this backlash."

To rebound, he says, "rap has to look at the bigger issues confronting society. There's only so much bling the public can take."

The upside for rap, Kitwana says, is that so much of it "remains off the mainstream radar. You never know when hip-hop is going to reinvent itself, or when something operating out on the fringe is going to emerge and become the next new thing."

Contributing: Edna Gundersen

Find this article at:
http://www.usatoday.com/life/music/news/2007-06-14-rap-decline_N.htm

[carrie721]

agreed, Carrie, in my work, we do just that. we have a very active/vital Hmong community that contributes quite a lot to the community at large but you can bet that we place all eligible candidates into the ESL classes to HELP them succeed. and they DO. They WANT to assimilate.

I certainly wouldnt go to Thailand and expect everyone to speak english to accomodate me.....

these kids want to assimilate too. they're just not given the tools. i think it's great that your community has ESL classes for those people.

[irishgrl]

these kids want to assimilate too. they're just not given the tools. i think it's great that your community has ESL classes for those people.
if they want to assimilate and arent given the opportunity, thats heinous.

I feel very LUCKY to live in CA. I know we get ridiculed all the time by the rest of the country, but really, this State looks out for the needs of the minorites, the old, the poor...........as much as feasibly possible.

[irishgrl]

Could be - but it is still a huge money maker :shrug:

Can rap regain its crown?

By Steve Jones, USA TODAY
Not long ago, rap dominated album sales charts. Now, the music that has been a driving creative and commercial force in American culture is struggling to get its swagger back.
The music industry is suffering across-the-board drops in CD sales, but rap is in a steeper slide: This year, rap sales are down 33% from 2006, twice the decline for the industry overall, according to Nielsen SoundScan. Five years ago, Eminem's album The Eminem Show was atop the Billboard chart, on its way to becoming the runaway best-selling album that year, with 7.6 million copies. Since then, no rap album has sold as well.

Established rap stars no longer are sure things in sales. During the past nine months, Jay-Z, Ludacris, Snoop Dogg, Diddy and Nas released albums, but only those by Jay-Z and Ludacris have sold at least 1 million copies in the USA, and only Diddy is still on the charts.

Rap's decline can be traced to a range of factors, including marketing strategies that have de-emphasized album sales in favor of selling less-lucrative single songs and short versions of those singles as ring tones for cellphones. But more important to the industry, there are signs that many music-buying Americans — particularly the young, largely white audience that can make a difference between modest and blockbuster sales — are tiring of rappers' emphasis on "gangsta" attitudes, explicit lyrics and tales of street life and conspicuous consumption.

Within the rap industry, there's a growing debate about whether years of rampant commercialism — Snoop Dogg now endorses Pony sneakers; 50 Cent peddles grape-flavored vitamin water — have drained credibility and creativity out of a once-vibrant genre of music. And there's concern that rap, also known as hip-hop, has reached an evolutionary plateau: After more than a quarter-century on the charts, it's no longer the radical newcomer.

Rap pioneer KRS-One, who just released Hip Hop Lives with fellow legend Marley Marl, offers a blunt explanation.

"The music is garbage," he says. "What has happened over the past few years is that we have traded art for money, simple and plain, and the public is not stupid."

Chuck Creekmur, co-founder of hip-hop news website Allhiphop.com, says rap once was known for creative storytelling and clever rhymes, but now is being undermined by a lack of both.

"A lot of these albums now are looking to duplicate the success" of whatever is hot at the moment, he says. "There is a lack of variety."

An industry force no more

Whatever's causing consumers to tune out, it's clear that rap no longer dominates the music industry. In 2006, rap sold 59.1 million albums, down 21% from 2005 and 27% from 2004. Sales are trailing those for country albums (75 million) and heavy metal (61.6 million) — genres that rap formerly overshadowed.

In 2006, for the first time in five years, no rap albums were among the year's 10 biggest sellers, a list led by the soundtrack to Disney's High School Musical, which sold 3.7 million copies. Compare that with 2003, when 50 Cent's Get Rich or Die Tryin' ranked No. 1 with 6.5 million copies.

This year's top-selling albums thus far are by American Idol rocker Chris Daughtry's band and jazz chanteuse Norah Jones.

The rap industry is pinning hopes on 50 Cent's Curtis, due Sept. 4, and Kanye West's Graduation Day, expected in late August, as well as releases by Eminem and Dr. Dre that could arrive before the end of the year.

But those albums may not be enough to salvage the sales numbers for this year, and it's unclear whether 50 Cent or Eminem can match their past sales.

A genre is born

Hip-hop was born out of DJ-hosted block parties in the Bronx, N.Y., in the early 1970s and evolved with emcees "rapping" over the beats the DJs played.

The genre hit the Top 40 with the Sugar Hill Gang's Rapper's Delight in 1979.

Rap soon became, as Public Enemy's Chuck D described it, "the CNN of black culture," encompassing everything from party tales to political commentaries, especially from the view of poor and disaffected urban youths.

Rap found an audience not only in cities but in mostly white suburbs, as well.

By the 1990s, a harder-edged version of rap that glorified gang life began to dominate music and influence youth culture. Its songs and videos typically depict violence and drug dealers awash in diamonds and platinum jewelry, champagne and scantily clad women.

Rap became a multibillion-dollar-a-year global industry, influencing fashion, lifestyles and language while selling everything from SUVs to personal computers.

Rap's declining sales haven't escaped the attention of its kingpins. Declaring that hip-hop needed saving, Jay-Z ended a three-year retirement in November with his CD Kingdom Come, in which he essentially cast himself as Superman trying to save hip-hop.

A month later, Nas decried rap's lack of originality on his disc Hip HopIs Dead:

"Everybody sound the same, commercialize the game / Reminiscin' when it wasn't all business / They forgot where it started / So we all gather here for the dearly departed."

Rap may not be dead, but it's significantly weakened, in part by its own doing, music analysts say.

The industry's longtime strategy of pushing singles to sell albums has backfired in the digital age, says Felicia Palmer, president of 4Control Media and founder of the hip-hop news website SOHH.com.

Digital sales have outstripped CD sales, but not yet to a degree that compensates for the price difference between a 99-cent download and a $19.99 CD.

A just-released survey by the website found 82% of nearly 700 respondents are purchasing fewer albums than in previous years, and 67% acknowledge that they have illicitly downloaded albums rather than pay for them. One reason: 69% say they're "not inspired by many albums."

"People have gotten smart and know that (record companies) usually put out the two best singles, and the rest of the album is usually garbage," Palmer says.

Labels need to do more to help artists build their fan bases with promotional tours, which help consumers buy into the performer and not just a song, says Michael "Blue" Williams, who manages Outkast and other urban acts.

"People like hot music, but we are still not making artists who matter across the board," Williams says. "So while the labels are screaming that the sky is falling, they are trapped in their own vicious cycle of having to chase each single."

Promoting singles means getting favorable airplay, and that's more difficult now that hip-hop isn't the "only contemporary music that matters," as it was just a few years ago, says Sean Ross of Edison Media Research.

"Three years ago, you wouldn't have wanted to be a Top 40 station playing Bright Lights by (pop/rockers) Matchbox Twenty while your competitor was playing Get Low by (rapper) Lil Jon," Ross says.

"Now, Top 40 has Daughtry and Gwen Stefani, as well as a lot of quasi hip-hop from artists like Fergie and the Pussycat Dolls that, for some listeners, fill the same need as the real thing."

The real thing may no longer be real enough.

Glenn Peoples, founder and editor of music industry blog Coolfer.com, says: "A lot of people who used to listen to rap are now listening to rock. Rock is really strong right now."

'The public has made a choice'

Part of hip-hop's attraction has been the assumed authenticity of its lyrics and artists, but now, many younger listeners "believe that so much of what the mainstream (rap) industry does is orchestrated," says Bakari Kitwana, author of the books The Hip Hop Generation and Why White Kids Love Hip Hop. "I don't think they have a lot of confidence in the music the industry is producing."

For years, increasing sales of rap albums effectively muted protests about some songs' promotion of misogyny, racism and violence. Now, dwindling receipts and fading interest in rap have provided what some in the industry see as an opportunity to rethink content.

"The public has made a choice," KRS-One says. "They're saying, 'We do not want the nonsense that we see and hear on radio, and we are not putting our money there.' Rap music is being boycotted by the American public because of the images that we are putting forward."

The rising angst about rap lyrics was spotlighted this spring during the fallout over radio talk-show host Don Imus' smearing of the Rutgers University women's basketball team. Imus called team members "hos," then later noted in his defense that the word is commonly used in rap songs to describe women.

Soon after, hip-hop mogul Russell Simmons called a meeting of music industry executives. His Hip-Hop Summit Action Network later recommended that the rap industry voluntarily delete or bleep out offensive terms for broadcast.

Such efforts have drawn mixed reactions from rappers.

Master P, who built his multimillion-dollar No Limit Records empire on gangsta rap in the '90s, announced plans to start a new label, Take A Stand Records, with his son Romeo. He says he has been part of the problem and now wants to be part of the solution with clean, positive music.

That idea was derided by 50 Cent, who said he has no intention of cleaning up his lyrics.

"Music is a mirror, and hip-hop is a reflection of the environment we grew up in," he said at a news conference.

"If I ask you to paint a picture of the American flag and not use the color red, you're going to have a difficult time."

A new business model

Content questions aside, rap faces the same challenge that has alarmed much of the music industry: how to adapt to the digital revolution.

"What we have to do is figure out what the new music business is," says Kevin Liles, executive vice president of Warner Music Group, home to artists such as DJ Quik, Lil Scrappy and E-40.

"There was a time when an artist like a Jay-Z or DMX or 50 Cent would sell 4 million or 5 million CDs. But there's a new climate. Artists like Young Jeezy might sell 2 million albums, but 6 million ring tones."

Recent sales by rap star Mims reflect the problems facing the industry. His single This Is Why I'm Hot has done well this year, selling 634,000 downloads and 1.9 million ring tones, the 2007 leader in ring tones so far. But the album that contains This Is Why I'm Hot hasn't been so hot, selling only 231,000 copies. Music Is My Savior is No. 100 on Billboard's albums chart 11 weeks after its release.

Rap's early stars, from Grandmaster Flash to Public Enemy and LL Cool J, "touched on humor, politics, ghetto life and realities they faced," says music consultant Tom Vickers. "Rap has gradually degenerated from an art form into a ring tone. It's a hip catchphrase or a musical riff with a short shelf life. It has a novelty element that captures the listener's imagination, but it's not a song. It won't build a career. That's why we're seeing this backlash."

To rebound, he says, "rap has to look at the bigger issues confronting society. There's only so much bling the public can take."

The upside for rap, Kitwana says, is that so much of it "remains off the mainstream radar. You never know when hip-hop is going to reinvent itself, or when something operating out on the fringe is going to emerge and become the next new thing."

Contributing: Edna Gundersen

Find this article at:
http://www.usatoday.com/life/music/news/2007-06-14-rap-decline_N.htm
thks for proving my point. I think it will be a long slow slide, but I think Rap as a force is on the way out.

I dont know what will take its place but whatever it is, I, along with Babyface, hope that it involves musicians actually PLAYING MUSIC and not relying on synth to manufacture it.

[GypsySorcerer]

if they want to assimilate and arent given the opportunity, thats heinous.

I feel very LUCKY to live in CA. I know we get ridiculed all the time by the rest of the country, but really, this State looks out for the needs of the minorites, the old, the poor...........as much as feasibly possible.

I thought you were just complaining about the billions of tax dollars spent on accommodating non-English speakers. :shrug:

[irishgrl]

I thought you were just complaining about the billions of tax dollars spent on accommodating non-English speakers. :shrug:
with respect to the endless forms in every possible foreign language, yes. I think that is non-productive, but for classes to teach all these folks ENGLISH, I see no problem, nor do I object. Ultimately, our nation (or State in this case) is revitalized by the influx of new blood that brings idealistic HOPE. These folks come here because they believe in the DREAM. if they are contributing to the good of the community, we are all enriched! if they are a drag, or hindrance and need special accomodation, then the minuses outweigh the pluses in my opinion.

[Sarah]

personally, I dont appreciate the Gangsta attitude toward women. sorry :shrug:

that's exactly what i was talking about several posts ago... not appreciating something because you automatically assume it's thug, based on the language barrier.

[irishgrl]

that's exactly what i was talking about several posts ago... not appreciating something because you automatically assume it's thug, based on the language barrier.
You're kidding right?

I dont have to assume anything, Gangsta Rap IS thug, and is very up front about the fact that women are treated as sex objects ONLY. "Bitch" and "Ho" are not victims of any "language barrier." We all know what "Playah" indicates. Songs that glorify guns and violence and devalue women by treating them as meat or not worthy of fidelity are not my cup of tea.

[shackin'up]

a bunch of bull is this list.

where's velvet underground?

lou reed?

and Tusk? That's the definite album when it comes to the transition from mainstream to indie.

FM's white album? gorgeous but ten times less important than Tusk.

[shackin'up]

OK, it's about sales.

Interesting.

:distress:

[Sarah]

You're kidding right?

I dont have to assume anything, Gangsta Rap IS thug, and is very up front about the fact that women are treated as sex objects ONLY. "Bitch" and "Ho" are not victims of any "language barrier." We all know what "Playah" indicates. Songs that glorify guns and violence and devalue women by treating them as meat or not worthy of fidelity are not my cup of tea.

"Playah"?? Never heard of it. Thanks for the definition. :laugh:

Not all gangsta rap is created equally. And believe it or not, there are plenty of golddigging hos out there that dangle themselves like meat to get knocked up and feed off someone who's doing well. As ugly as it is, that's a fact. While there is a lot of trash rap.. mainly radio/mtv rap/hip hop.. that does toss around "bitch" and "ho" without discretion, there are plenty of dudes out there just telling a true story of how they got taken for a ride after they were offered a ride, if you know what I'm saying. Likewise, there are plenty of dudes who rarely even talk about chicks, and just what it's like to worry about getting shot up every time you walk out your door. Or how you started slinging rock at 15 because you were on your own without any opportunity at all.


And no, I'm not kidding one bit. Also, I have to respectfully say that I don't appreciate the condescending nature of that question. I simply put a fact out there for consumption, because I've listened to a lot of rap and KNOW that it isn't all like that.

[skcin]

Same with movies. Since you brought up Dirty Dancing... I'd say that was definitely one of the defining movies of the 80s, but technically the movie isn't all that great. The acting, for instance, is far from top notch.


:eek:

How dare you, miss. How DARE you! :mad:

[danax6]

:eek:

How dare you, miss. How DARE you! :mad:It's Jennifer Grey's nose, it's too distracting. :distress:

And still this is one of my favorite movies, or eh, guilty pleasures, so what does that say about me, right? I am a shallow, shallow person. Oh, and cheap.

[irishgrl]

"Playah"?? Never heard of it. Thanks for the definition. :laugh:

Not all gangsta rap is created equally. And believe it or not, there are plenty of golddigging hos out there that dangle themselves like meat to get knocked up and feed off someone who's doing well. As ugly as it is, that's a fact. While there is a lot of trash rap.. mainly radio/mtv rap/hip hop.. that does toss around "bitch" and "ho" without discretion, there are plenty of dudes out there just telling a true story of how they got taken for a ride after they were offered a ride, if you know what I'm saying. Likewise, there are plenty of dudes who rarely even talk about chicks, and just what it's like to worry about getting shot up every time you walk out your door. Or how you started slinging rock at 15 because you were on your own without any opportunity at all.


And no, I'm not kidding one bit. Also, I have to respectfully say that I don't appreciate the condescending nature of that question. I simply put a fact out there for consumption, because I've listened to a lot of rap and KNOW that it isn't all like that.
my point is, there is no perceived language barrier when songs plainly state that women are not treated with respect.

I am not discounting the fact that guns/drugs/violence are a fact of life for these folks, however, the fact that many inner-city black kids do NOT engage in that sort of lifestyle and DO manage to rise above indicates to me that bad choices were made.

and likewise, I dont appreciate your statement that my dislike of gangsta rap (because it devalues women) is indicative of any sort of "language barrier" issue. Either you deliberately misunderstood or you just went out on a limb and tried to make 2+2=5.

[Sarah]

and likewise, I dont appreciate your statement that my dislike of gangsta rap (because it devalues women) is indicative of any sort of "language barrier" issue.

You can believe what you want about you knowing how my thought processes work, but the way I read your comment.. that's how I took what you were saying. I feel no need to offer any sort of apology for any miscommunication that may have occurred.

Either you deliberately misunderstood or you just went out on a limb and tried to make 2+2=5.

Again, believe what you want; just don't start telling me how I think. I have never "deliberately misunderstood" anything in my entire life, and I take offense at the accusation.

[shackin'up]

how cool is this? A catfight over gangstarap on a Fleetwood Mac-board.
Oil on fire? Lindsey digs Eminem (OK, white guy) and Chamillionaire (def. NO white guy, and more than enough blingbling). So rap is going to be appreciated by the mainstreamseventiesdinosaurwhiterockartists when they reach retirement-age. THAT can only mean: death of a genre.

[irishgrl]

You can believe what you want about you knowing how my thought processes work, but the way I read your comment.. that's how I took what you were saying. I feel no need to offer any sort of apology for any miscommunication that may have occurred.



Again, believe what you want; just don't start telling me how I think. I have never "deliberately misunderstood" anything in my entire life, and I take offense at the accusation.
well, then, I'll put it even plainer: my ONLY point was that I dont appreciate gangsta rap because it devalues women. There is NO language barrier problem. I cant help how you interpret anything, but its a real head scratcher to me how you could infer a language barrier issue from my statement that I dont appreciate a musical genre that glorifies the mistreatment of women. Perhaps the "language barrier" isnt just in the rap songs eh?

[danax6]

how cool is this? A catfight over gangstarap on a Fleetwood Mac-board.
Oil on fire? Lindsey digs Eminem (OK, white guy) and Chamillionaire (def. NO white guy, and more than enough blingbling). So rap is going to be appreciated by the mainstreamseventiesdinosaurwhiterockartists when they reach retirement-age. THAT can only mean: death of a genre.Okay, but Lindsey Buckingham does not embody all of the 'mainstreamseventiesdinosaurwhiterockartists'. Granted, artists do usually tend to have a more open mind towards new influences, but Lindsey is, by his own admission, a bit more to the left of mainstream, so he probably sees something in rap that I just don't see, from a more artistic standpoint. Doesn't mean that everybody sees it the same way or that it automatically leads to a death of a certain genre.

[Sarah]

well, then, I'll put it even plainer: my ONLY point was that I dont appreciate gangsta rap because it devalues women. There is NO language barrier problem. I cant help how you interpret anything, but its a real head scratcher to me how you could infer a language barrier issue from my statement that I dont appreciate a musical genre that glorifies the mistreatment of women. Perhaps the "language barrier" isnt just in the rap songs eh?

okay, let me put it to you like this.

i have been cordial and i told you that i understood your point. the only language barrier issue that i'm having with you right now is a very simple one. i used to speak "snarky bitch", but i gave that up a couple years ago once my leftover teenage angst wore off.

so, i'm not going to go through the trouble of a ledge "catfight" as someone else put it. you have three or four other active ones, i'm sure, so just keep on movin'.. i'm done.

[irishgrl]

okay, let me put it to you like this.

i have been cordial and i told you that i understood your point. the only language barrier issue that i'm having with you right now is a very simple one. i used to speak "snarky bitch", but i gave that up a couple years ago once my leftover teenage angst wore off.

so, i'm not going to go through the trouble of a ledge "catfight" as someone else put it. you have three or four other active ones, i'm sure, so just keep on movin'.. i'm done.
Im not trying to have a cat fight with you....merely perplexed at why you would use my simple one point sentence to try and illustrate some previously articulated issue regarding language barriers.

The only thing I could see is that perhaps you made some additional assumptions that werent supported :shrug:

additionally, I fail to see how you "understood my point" when all you did was state that you took my post a certain way and didnt feel the need to apologise. Thats ok by me, I didnt ask you to. I only pointed out that your inference was illogical and didnt follow. And, I might add, I've been remarkably TAME in this convo, so if that passes for "snarky bitch", then I guess the "snarky" bar's been lowered :lol:

[jannieC]

I certainly wouldnt go to Thailand and expect everyone to speak english to accomodate me.....

Not sure about Thailand, but many foreign countries already speak our language.

[irishgrl]

Not sure about Thailand, but many foreign countries already speak our language.
true, and we're lucky they do.....but it certainly isnt to accomodate non-native speakers, its more an economic necessity, because, apparently English is the universal language of commerce/business.

Still and all, I dont speak a second language, consequently, I wont be traveling to any exotic locales any time soon :distress:

ps: I only pulled "Thailand" out of a hat....I could just as easily have said France or Austria or China or Russia.

[shackin'up]

Okay, but Lindsey Buckingham does not embody all of the 'mainstreamseventiesdinosaurwhiterockartists'. Granted, artists do usually tend to have a more open mind towards new influences, but Lindsey is, by his own admission, a bit more to the left of mainstream, so he probably sees something in rap that I just don't see, from a more artistic standpoint. Doesn't mean that everybody sees it the same way or that it automatically leads to a death of a certain genre.

well uh, yeah you're right ofcourse. but at least I invented a very cool new word for galgje.

[littlewolf]

To return to the original idea...

The list is pretty good.
Of course i disagree a lot with it,but i have 95 of those and used to have 5 more.

Biggest disagreement i have with it, is including very recent(i think) releases.
Didn´t it say "have and will continue for years.."
It takes time for record to show it´s continuing importance,not just a year or two.
Also,
only one record per artist/band should be included as it should be efficent to cover that particular niche.
After all, only 200 records is very little, if it´s supposed to cover all of the popular music genre´s.