Please Die Fighting for My Rights [Archive]

strandinthewind

08-11-2007, 05:47 PM

. . . but, after you are dead, you are a filthy fag who does not deserve a proper burial - hmmmm, what would Jesus say?

Church Cancels Memorial for Gay Navy Vet

By ANGELA K. BROWN
Associated Press Writer

ARLINGTON, Texas — A megachurch canceled a memorial service for a Navy veteran 24 hours before it was to start because the deceased was gay.

Officials at the nondenominational High Point Church knew that Cecil Howard Sinclair was gay when they offered to host his service, said his sister, Kathleen Wright. But after his obituary listed his life partner as one of his survivors, she said, it was called off.

"It's a slap in the face. It's like, 'Oh, we're sorry he died, but he's gay so we can't help you,'" she said Friday.

Wright said High Point offered to hold the service for Sinclair because their brother is a janitor there. Sinclair, who served in the first Gulf War, died Monday at age 46 from an infection after surgery to prepare him for a heart transplant.

The church's pastor, the Rev. Gary Simons, said no one knew Sinclair, who was not a church member, was gay until the day before the Thursday service, when staff members putting together his video tribute saw pictures of men "engaging in clear affection, kissing and embracing."

Simons said the church believes homosexuality is a sin, and it would have appeared to endorse that lifestyle if the service had been held there.

"We did decline to host the service — not based on hatred, not based on discrimination, but based on principle," Simons told The Associated Press. "Had we known it on the day they first spoke about it — yes, we would have declined then. It's not that we didn't love the family." [My Fav. Line :rolleyes: ]
Simons said the decision had nothing to do with the obituary. He said the church offered to pay for another site for the service, made the video and provided food for more than 100 relatives and friends. [and. while your at it, filthy black people should use this special door :rolleyes: ]

"Even though we could not condone that lifestyle, we went above and beyond for the family through many acts of love and kindness," Simons said.

Wright called the church's claim about the pictures "a bold-faced lie." She said she provided numerous family pictures of Sinclair, including some with his partner, but said none showed men kissing or hugging.

The 5,000-member High Point Church was founded in 2000 by Simons and his wife, April, whose brother is Joel Osteen, well-known pastor of the 38,000-member Lakewood Church in Houston. Now High Point meets in a 432,000-square-foot facility in Arlington, near Dallas.

Wright said relatives declined the church's offer to hold the service at a community center because they felt it was an inappropriate venue. It ultimately was held at a funeral home, but the cancellation still lingered in some minds, she said.

___

On the Net:

High Point Church: http://www.churchunusual.com

Find this article at:
http://www.ajc.com/news/content/shared-gen/ap/National/Gay_Funeral.html?cxntlid=homepage_tab_newstab (emphasis and commentary supplied)

BlackWidow

08-11-2007, 05:51 PM

Truly DISGUSTING!!!

Sarah

08-11-2007, 09:19 PM

http://smilies.vidahost.com/cwm/3dlil/puke.gif Pathetic, brainwashed little pigs.

I wouldn't want my funeral in that church anyway.

gldstwmn

08-11-2007, 11:36 PM

I could go on quite a bender about what I think of the Osteen church philosophy. But that's beside the point. These church people suck.
On another note, did you hear that Fred Phelps is planning on protesting the funerals of the victims of the Minneapolis bridge collapse? :rolleyes:

strandinthewind

08-11-2007, 11:45 PM

I could go on quite a bender about what I think of the Osteen church philosophy.

I read his book and it was all about put the issue with the Lord and He will see to it that it happens if you have faith. I thought that sure was a nice thought, but The Lord helps those who helps themselves and no matter how faithful you are, the rent is due on the first and likely no one is just going to hand it to you every month. So, I concluded his book was full of shiite. He has good hair though.

On another note, did you hear that Fred Phelps is planning on protesting the funerals of the victims of the Minneapolis bridge collapse? :rolleyes:

Bless his heart! I hope God does not judge him as inanely as he has judged his fellow man in the name of God.

strandinthewind

08-11-2007, 11:48 PM

To sick for words :eek:

Fred Phelps Is Coming
by: Eric Black
Tue Aug 07, 2007 at 10:27:54 AM

The Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka, Kan., plans to stage protests at funerals of victims of the 35W bridge collapse to state that God made the bridge fall because he hates America, and especially Minnesota, because of its tolerance of homosexuality.
The church and its pastor, the Rev. Fred Phelps, have become notorious over recent years for their claim that the attack of 9/11 was an act of God's vengeance and their determination to make that case at the funerals of U.S. soldiers who died in Iraq.

In a press release issued the day after the bridge collapse, the church called for protests at the funerals and outlined its feelings about the relationship between God's plan and the sins of Minneapolis and Minnesota, which it calls the "land of the Sodomite damned."

Reached at the church, Shirley Phelps Roper, who is both the daughter of the pastor and one of the attorneys for the church, said that America, and Minnesota especially, have alienated God by its tolerance for homosexuality, and that the bridge collapse was an act of God's vengeance. She said:

"The bridge stood in place by the word of God and it fell by the word of God...Each of these little events is just a harbinger of the coming destruction of this American experiment. We are delivering the final call of the doomed nation."
She said, as they have done for years, members of the church would stand "lawfully and peacefully on the public right of way" near the funerals and "put in the air words of praying and instruction and warning."
The signs that the protesters will wave will read:

"God cast down the bridge... Thank God for 9/11... America is doomed... God hates fags... God hates fag enablers... God hates Minnesota."

http://www.minnesotamonitor.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=2184

gldstwmn

08-11-2007, 11:50 PM

I read his book and it was all about put the issue with the Lord and He will see to it that it happens if you have faith. I thought that sure was a nice thought, but The Lord helps those who helps themselves and no matter how faithful you are, the rent is due on the first and likely no one is just going to hand it to you every month. So, I concluded his book was full of shiite. He has good hair though.

Exactly. Handsome guy, nice looking wife. His heart seems to be in the right place. But then, so does his wallet.

Starling

08-12-2007, 12:50 AM

strandinthewind

08-12-2007, 01:13 AM

Honestly. Does that *even* make sense? Since when is God about vengeance? What kind of 'loving' God is this? Not my kind...

If you want to fill your coffers, preach hate - sad, but very true :distress:

danax6

08-12-2007, 05:40 AM

God bless America. :rolleyes:

LiamMcConville

08-12-2007, 07:06 AM

That article about Fred Felps is too damn funny. I cannot stand bible beaters, especially people like that. Its just so appalling and far-fetched to me I can't help but laugh hysterically. Pft, people and their ridiculous beliefs these days. Everyone should be like me and become a Nonexistentialist.

mylittledemon

08-12-2007, 09:36 AM

. . . but, after you are dead, you are a filthy fag who does not deserve a proper burial - hmmmm, what would Jesus say?

Church Cancels Memorial for Gay Navy Vet

By ANGELA K. BROWN
Associated Press Writer

ARLINGTON, Texas — A megachurch canceled a memorial service for a Navy veteran 24 hours before it was to start because the deceased was gay.

Officials at the nondenominational High Point Church knew that Cecil Howard Sinclair was gay when they offered to host his service, said his sister, Kathleen Wright. But after his obituary listed his life partner as one of his survivors, she said, it was called off.

"It's a slap in the face. It's like, 'Oh, we're sorry he died, but he's gay so we can't help you,'" she said Friday.

Wright said High Point offered to hold the service for Sinclair because their brother is a janitor there. Sinclair, who served in the first Gulf War, died Monday at age 46 from an infection after surgery to prepare him for a heart transplant.

The church's pastor, the Rev. Gary Simons, said no one knew Sinclair, who was not a church member, was gay until the day before the Thursday service, when staff members putting together his video tribute saw pictures of men "engaging in clear affection, kissing and embracing."

Simons said the church believes homosexuality is a sin, and it would have appeared to endorse that lifestyle if the service had been held there.

"We did decline to host the service — not based on hatred, not based on discrimination, but based on principle," Simons told The Associated Press. "Had we known it on the day they first spoke about it — yes, we would have declined then. It's not that we didn't love the family." [My Fav. Line :rolleyes: ]
Simons said the decision had nothing to do with the obituary. He said the church offered to pay for another site for the service, made the video and provided food for more than 100 relatives and friends. [and. while your at it, filthy black people should use this special door :rolleyes: ]

"Even though we could not condone that lifestyle, we went above and beyond for the family through many acts of love and kindness," Simons said.

Wright called the church's claim about the pictures "a bold-faced lie." She said she provided numerous family pictures of Sinclair, including some with his partner, but said none showed men kissing or hugging.

The 5,000-member High Point Church was founded in 2000 by Simons and his wife, April, whose brother is Joel Osteen, well-known pastor of the 38,000-member Lakewood Church in Houston. Now High Point meets in a 432,000-square-foot facility in Arlington, near Dallas.

Wright said relatives declined the church's offer to hold the service at a community center because they felt it was an inappropriate venue. It ultimately was held at a funeral home, but the cancellation still lingered in some minds, she said.

My thoughts...

This would be no different, or worse than your own parent not showing at your funeral. Or not participating in your life because you are homosexual. I dont see where the distinction is drawn. The church itself has the right to do what they did, in my opinion. If this young man's mother or sister refused to host the service because she didnt agree with his lifestyle choice...then everyone's panties would still be in an uproar. Its only because the church was involved that media attention was brought to it. It seems to me, from what I read (if its true) that they did indeed try to help the family. I think the church upholding its right to not condone homosexuality is fair. However, there's probably some discrimination loopholes in there since churches are also considered "businesses."

mylittledemon

08-12-2007, 09:43 AM

Exactly. Handsome guy, nice looking wife. His heart seems to be in the right place. But then, so does his wallet.

He's too happy-go-lucky for me. Tickle the ears a little bit and make you feel warm and fuzzy. In terms of the ministry, I dont believe I've ever once see him preach against sinful nature.

I personally believe you cant go thru this life, and do whatever the f*ck you want, and expect to have the open-armed God waiting at the end of it for you. I believe he loves us unconditionally, yes, but I dont believe the God of the universe will condone your murdering, thievery, raping, lust for money, etc. That being said, I think we can experience a change of heart and turn from those things and start over. What I'm saying is, I dont think you can expect eternal bliss if you happen to die the same time you're slitting someone's throat.

estranged4life

08-12-2007, 09:44 AM

More relig-a-tarded BS from more idiots of this country known as the United States of Hypocrisy

strandinthewind

08-12-2007, 09:49 AM

My thoughts...

This would be no different, or worse than your own parent not showing at your funeral. Or not participating in your life because you are homosexual. I dont see where the distinction is drawn. The church itself has the right to do what they did, in my opinion. If this young man's mother or sister refused to host the service because she didnt agree with his lifestyle choice...then everyone's panties would still be in an uproar. Its only because the church was involved that media attention was brought to it. It seems to me, from what I read (if its true) that they did indeed try to help the family. I think the church upholding its right to not condone homosexuality is fair. However, there's probably some discrimination loopholes in there since churches are also considered "businesses."

Yes, you are correct - the church is this case has the right to do whatever they want. However, that they did this IMO was a horrible thing. I mean this guy was a veteran who served his country. So, my issue is moral an ethical one than a legal one. As I have said many a time, all Christian churches I can think of are wildly hypocritical in their adherence to what they perceive as the Scripture. Remember, it was not that long ago that Chruches openly advocated "doctrine" that slavery was okay :eek:

gldstwmn

08-12-2007, 12:28 PM

Honestly. Does that *even* make sense? Since when is God about vengeance? What kind of 'loving' God is this? Not my kind...

They are loons. It probably comes from years of inbreeding. :laugh:

gldstwmn

08-12-2007, 12:31 PM

The church itself has the right to do what they did, in my opinion.

Of course they did. But it doesn't make it any less despicable.

SortaSavageLike

08-12-2007, 12:32 PM

Fred Phelps, or someone in his family, is going to die a brutal, unimaginable death sometime in the next five years. And who ever does it is going to become a national hero overnight. :lol:

gldstwmn

08-12-2007, 12:37 PM

He's too happy-go-lucky for me. Tickle the ears a little bit and make you feel warm and fuzzy. In terms of the ministry, I dont believe I've ever once see him preach against sinful nature.

I personally believe you cant go thru this life, and do whatever the f*ck you want, and expect to have the open-armed God waiting at the end of it for you. I believe he loves us unconditionally, yes, but I dont believe the God of the universe will condone your murdering, thievery, raping, lust for money, etc. That being said, I think we can experience a change of heart and turn from those things and start over. What I'm saying is, I dont think you can expect eternal bliss if you happen to die the same time you're slitting someone's throat.

But do you think Osteen is propagating that? I don't really get that from him. What I get from him is that if you follow a certain path then you will be rich, including materially. Underscore materially. I do believe you can bring any request to the Universe (or God, whichever works for you). It doesn't necessarily mean it will be honored. Where we find ourselves often has to do with where we intend to be. Now, I could write a whole dissertation on that last sentence. :lol:
Anyway, it's not like I've spent a whole lot of time studying Osteen. He's not my cup of tea.

mylittledemon

08-12-2007, 12:39 PM

Honestly. Does that *even* make sense? Since when is God about vengeance? What kind of 'loving' God is this? Not my kind...

Do you even understand God, or believe in one? I mean...take someone like Hitler. The man was responsible for the deaths of millions of people...do you believe that there isnt vengeance for all those people he killed? All those people that couldnt stop him? All the children he killed? I think God is as much a God of vengeance as he is a God of love. They are a balance, one in the other.

If God was a merely a God ONLY of love...with no checks and balances...then what kind of "perfect" God would he be? Frankly...I want a God...to believe in one that does give recompense. For me to believe otherwise would be against my own conscience.

mylittledemon

08-12-2007, 12:45 PM

But do you think Osteen is propagating that? I don't really get that from him. What I get from him is that if you follow a certain path then you will be rich, including materially. Underscore materially. I do believe you can bring any request to the Universe (or God, whichever works for you). It doesn't necessarily mean it will be honored. Where we find ourselves often has to do with where we intend to be. Now, I could write a whole dissertation on that last sentence. :lol:
Anyway, it's not like I've spent a whole lot of time studying Olsteen. He's not my cup of tea.

I believe that God can bless you financially. But I dont believe its proper to DESIRE it. In my own life, I would love to have tons of money. I would love to win the lottery so I could provide a better life for my family and even my friends. Who wouldnt? But I dont lust after money, and my life doesnt revolve around my work and my paycheck. Does that make sense?

It seems to me that Osteen preaches primarily on prosperity only. And you know what? Kudos to him for finding his niche. It just seems to me that were I in his position, my conviction wouldnt reward me .

carrie721

08-12-2007, 12:50 PM

Do you even understand God, or believe in one? I mean...take someone like Hitler. The man was responsible for the deaths of millions of people...do you believe that there isnt vengeance for all those people he killed? All those people that couldnt stop him? All the children he killed? I think God is as much a God of vengeance as he is a God of love. They are a balance, one in the other.

If God was a merely a God ONLY of love...with no checks and balances...then what kind of "perfect" God would he be? Frankly...I want a God...to believe in one that does give recompense. For me to believe otherwise would be against my own conscience.

are you saying, then, that it's possible that the bridge falling is an act of vengeance? or that the towers falling on 9/11? or the tsunami? or any tragedy? that's absurd.

mylittledemon

08-12-2007, 12:54 PM

are you saying, then, that it's possible that the bridge falling is an act of vengeance? or that the towers falling on 9/11? or the tsunami? or any tragedy? that's absurd.

I'm referring more about the reprecussions after your life. In no way was I talking about "physical" or karmic sufferings in this life. I think we do bring thing upon us...reaping what we sow to a certain extent. But please dont try to pigeonhole me into that can of nuts that say 9/11 happened because of homosexual sin, or other such things. I wouldnt presume to make such statements.

carrie721

08-12-2007, 12:58 PM

I'm referring more about the reprecussions after your life. In no way was I talking about "physical" or karmic sufferings in this life. I think we do bring thing upon us...reaping what we sow to a certain extent. But please dont try to pigeonhole me into that can of nuts that say 9/11 happened because of homosexual sin, or other such things. I wouldnt presume to make such statements.

i'm not pigeonholing you, i was asking for clarification. because that's what it sounded like you were saying ... to me anyway.

i still think the idea of a vengeful god - whether that vengeance is exacted before or after death - is absurd, though. :shrug:

mylittledemon

08-12-2007, 01:05 PM

i'm not pigeonholing you, i was asking for clarification. because that's what it sounded like you were saying ... to me anyway.

i still think the idea of a vengeful god - whether that vengeance is exacted before or after death - is absurd, though. :shrug:

I believe that in order for God to be true, he would have to be balanced. I hate to bring up the Hitler example...but I believe we all can agree the man was the devil. I cannot, and could not believe that an open-armed welcoming, loving God was waiting for Adolf after he shot himself. I believe there is vengeance and "payback" for the atrocities he chose to commit in this life. Hitler made those choices...therefore the "vengeance" i'm referring to was brought upon himself. He chose it for himself, not God.

If a man broke into your home, and murdered your family...and then shot himself...do you believe that man would be welcomed into "heaven"?

carrie721

08-12-2007, 01:07 PM

I believe that in order for God to be true, he would have to be balanced. I hate to bring up the Hitler example...but I believe we all can agree the man was the devil. I cannot, and could not believe that an open-armed welcoming, loving God was waiting for Adolf after he shot himself. I believe there is vengeance and "payback" for the atrocities he chose to commit in this life. Hitler made those choices...therefore the "vengeance" i'm referring to was brought upon himself. He chose it for himself, not God.

If a man broke into your home, and murdered your family...and then shot himself...do you believe that man would be welcomed into "heaven"?

well, i don't really believe in the heaven/hell paradigm. i don't see "love" as one side of a love/hate equation ... it's just love. so i don't see a god who is purely about love as an unbalanced god.

mylittledemon

08-12-2007, 01:14 PM

well, i don't really believe in the heaven/hell paradigm. i don't see "love" as one side of a love/hate equation ... it's just love. so i don't see a god who is purely about love as an unbalanced god.

Well you sly-ly and stylishly avoided the question. Fair enough. I personally couldnt go thru my life believing that. I believe God loves us all, unconditionally as a parent would. He doesnt love the things that we do, however. That's why we have choices. We were given the free will to make our own choices, so we arent forced into a coersed love with God.

carrie721

08-12-2007, 01:16 PM

Well you sly-ly and stylishly avoided the question. Fair enough. I personally couldnt go thru my life believing that. I believe God loves us all, unconditionally as a parent would. He doesnt love the things that we do, however. That's why we have choices. We were given the free will to make our own choices, so we arent forced into a coersed love with God.

i didn't avoid the question. i can't answer it because it presumes that i share a belief in heaven & hell, and i don't :shrug:

what do you mean by "we aren't forced into a coerced love with god"?

mylittledemon

08-12-2007, 01:21 PM

i didn't avoid the question. i can't answer it because it presumes that i share a belief in heaven & hell, and i don't :shrug:

what do you mean by "we aren't forced into a coerced love with god"?

If you dont believe in a heaven or hell, I suppose you dont believe in anything after this life. That sucks. Again, that's something I that would go against my very being to believe. This argument would go on forever, but without taking a stand on something we'll just go round in circles. Therefore we must end it...but it was fun!

Coersion...You can choose to love God, or not love him. To acknowledge his existence, or to ignore it. That is the right and privilege of this life. He loves us regardless, I believe that. If you go thru life believing he isn't real...pissing on your fellow man...hating...murdering...slandering...lying...then I believe you'd made the choice for vengeance (going back full circle to what we talked about earlier).

carrie721

08-12-2007, 01:29 PM

If you dont believe in a heaven or hell, I suppose you dont believe in anything after this life. That sucks. Again, that's something I that would go against my very being to believe. This argument would go on forever, but without taking a stand on something we'll just go round in circles. Therefore we must end it...but it was fun!

not necessarily :shrug: heaven & hell isn't the only afterlife option.

Coersion...You can choose to love God, or not love him. To acknowledge his existence, or to ignore it. That is the right and privilege of this life. He loves us regardless, I believe that. If you go thru life believing he isn't real...pissing on your fellow man...hating...murdering...slandering...lying...then I believe you'd made the choice for vengeance (going back full circle to what we talked about earlier).

oic. i didn't see the relevance to the discussion before ... i see how you're relating it now.

trackaghost

08-12-2007, 01:34 PM

If you dont believe in a heaven or hell, I suppose you dont believe in anything after this life. That sucks. Again, that's something I that would go against my very being to believe. This argument would go on forever, but without taking a stand on something we'll just go round in circles. Therefore we must end it...but it was fun!

Why does that suck? Maybe you'll appreciate life more knowing that this is it, your one and only chance. And maybe your motives are purer if you lead a good life without expecting some kind of "reward" at the end of it.

Coersion...You can choose to love God, or not love him. To acknowledge his existence, or to ignore it. That is the right and privilege of this life. He loves us regardless, I believe that. If you go thru life believing he isn't real...pissing on your fellow man...hating...murdering...slandering...lying...then I believe you'd made the choice for vengeance (going back full circle to what we talked about earlier).

I hate to bring it up as it's a boring old argument but there have been plenty of terrible acts committed by people who believe in God. Also there's many great saints who lived very sinful lives and repented. The thought of God being a vengeful one is awful to me. But whatever gets you through the day.

strandinthewind

08-12-2007, 01:53 PM

are you saying, then, that it's possible that the bridge falling is an act of vengeance? or that the towers falling on 9/11? or the tsunami? or any tragedy? that's absurd.

According to The Bible, God has shown His Wrath with far severer consequences. So, if you believe in The Bible's teaching, then it is not absurd. Personally, rather than calling it absurd, I prefer to say I do not think anything done on this Earth right now merits the Wrath seen in The Bible. I also think God worked through nature to exert his wrath in The Bible as opposed to the man made hate in the world right now. In the end, no one has the Batphone to Heaven. Som live your life as best you can and be kind to other people. In that, I think you will find whatever good peace you seek.

Also, Genesis teaches that there was good with no evil for the first two creations (yes, there are two in The Bible) -- but man's quest for knowledge could not allow that innocence to continue. Thus, evil became a force.

mylittledemon

08-12-2007, 01:53 PM

Why does that suck? Maybe you'll appreciate life more knowing that this is it, your one and only chance. And maybe your motives are purer if you lead a good life without expecting some kind of "reward" at the end of it.

I hate to bring it up as it's a boring old argument but there have been plenty of terrible acts committed by people who believe in God. Also there's many great saints who lived very sinful lives and repented. The thought of God being a vengeful one is awful to me. But whatever gets you through the day.

It just sucks...i hate that people believe and feel that way. I appreciate my life more knowing that there is a better one to come.

What you're saying about rewards...It begs the argument that if "good people" go thru leading a "good" life believing in nothing....and choose to believe in no God...but find themselves in that place when they die...do they deserve to be there? Do their choices warrant that?

I suppose in the end, I could never make that presumption. Only you and God knows your own heart. And I suppose the God of this universe can do as he pleases.

strandinthewind

08-12-2007, 01:57 PM

. . . If a man broke into your home, and murdered your family...and then shot himself...do you believe that man would be welcomed into "heaven"?

According to Catholic and most other Christian teachings (which have defined God (the Holy Trinity for the last 2000+ years) - if that man had acepted Jesus Christ as his personal saviour and had repented his sins prior to shooting himself and/or was insane - it is likely God would welcome him into heaven, though the suicide, not the murders, may keep him out of Heaven, according to some.

Christianity is all about repenting and sin is presumed before birth. Also, many faiths make no distinctions or minor distinctions amongst sins.

mylittledemon

08-12-2007, 02:01 PM

According to Catholic and most other Christian teachings (which have defined God (the Holy Trinity for the last 2000+ years) - if that man had acepted Jesus Christ as his personal saviour and had repented his sins prior to shooting himself and/or was insane - it is likely God would welcome him into heaven, though the suicide, not the murders, may keep him out of Heaven, according to some.

Christianity is all about repenting and sin is presumed before birth. Also, many faiths make no distinctions or minor distinctions amongst sins.

I see your point. They are valid. Its a touchy thing. I dont believe that believing in Christ and repenting of sins covers future sins. That is a big argument among Christianity today. I believe we must be forgiven daily. I dont think many of us can go thru the day without doing something that grieves the heart. At least, not me!

strandinthewind

08-12-2007, 02:02 PM

The creation stories in Genesis:

Creationists call us to believe the Biblical creation story as a literal account of historical events. However, Genesis contains two distinctly different creation accounts. Which creation story are they calling us to "literally" believe?

For generations, serious students of Scripture have noted stark divisions and variations in the age of the Hebrew, its style and language within Genesis. As we have it now, Genesis is actually a composite of three written primary sources, each with its own character, favorite words and distinctly different names for God. Such differences all but evaporate when translated into English, but they are clear in the ancient Hebrew text.

The first creation account, Genesis. 1:1 to Genesis. 2:4a, was written during or after the Jews' Babylonian captivity. This fully developed story explains creation in terms of the ancient near eastern world view of its time. A watery chaos is divided by the dome (firmament) of the sky. The waters under the dome are gathered and land appears. Lights are affixed in the dome. All living things are created. The story pictures God building the cosmos as a supporting ecosystem for humanity. Finally, humanity, both male and female, is created, and God rests.

The second Creation story, Genesis 2:4b to 2:25, found its written form several centuries before the Genesis. 1:1 story. This text is a less developed and much older story. It was probably passed down for generations around the camp fires of desert dwellers before being written. It begins by describing a desert landscape, no plants or herbs, no rain; only a mist arises out of the earth. Then the Lord God forms man of the dust of the ground, creates an oasis-like Garden of Eden to support the "man whom he had formed." In this story, God creates animal life while trying to provide the man "a helper fit for him." None being found, God takes a rib from the man's side and creates the first woman. These two creation stories clearly arise out of different histories and reflect different concerns with different sequences of events. Can they either or both be literal history? Obviously not.

Many serious students of Scripture consider the first eleven chapters of Genesis as non-literal, pre-history type literature, with Abram in Genesis. 12:1 being the first literal historical figure in the Bible. This understanding of Genesis causes an uproar in some quarters. In most church communities, little of this textual study has filtered down to the pew. But, in their professional training, vast numbers of clergy have been exposed to this type of literary scriptural analysis.

In my over 28 years as a pastor, I have encountered many people who are unnecessarily conflicted because they have been made to believe that, to be faithfully religious, one must take a literal view of the Genesis creation accounts. Faced with their scientific understandings going one direction and their spiritual search another, many have felt compelled to give up their spiritual search altogether. This all too common reaction is an unnecessary shame!

So, the next time someone asks you if you believe the Biblical story of creation, just remember the correct reply: "To which Biblical creation story do you refer?"

Rev. James W. Watkins has been pastor of Old South Church, United Church of Christ, Kirtland, OH, since November of 1993. Over a 28-year ministerial career, Rev. Watkins has been pastor of six churches. In addition to his pastoral work, Rev. Watkins is an author, educator, and community activist.

http://www.sullivan-county.com/id2/2cs.htm

see also http://www.religioustolerance.org

trackaghost

08-12-2007, 02:04 PM

It just sucks...i hate that people believe and feel that way. I appreciate my life more knowing that there is a better one to come.

What you're saying about rewards...It begs the argument that if "good people" go thru leading a "good" life believing in nothing....and choose to believe in no God...but find themselves in that place when they die...do they deserve to be there? Do their choices warrant that?

I suppose in the end, I could never make that presumption. Only you and God knows your own heart. And I suppose the God of this universe can do as he pleases.

Why would it bother you? As long as you have your faith why would you hate that others believe in something else?

And yes, if there is a heaven I'd imagine that a non-believer who has lived a good life would deserve to go there when they die and would be accepted with open arms. Do you think really think that not believing in God, or the right God or whatever, voids all their good deeds? The fact that you equate someone who doesn't believe in God with someone who deserves to burn in hell disturbs me. Having been brought up Catholic let me tell you, believing in God and even devoting your life to Him, doesn't automatically make you a good person.

danax6

08-12-2007, 02:05 PM

If you dont believe in a heaven or hell, I suppose you dont believe in anything after this life. That sucks.How does that suck? I certainly don't think there is anything after we die, we just become part of the eternal nothingness. At least I don't have to spend my life living in fear, thinking I might go to Hell if I don't live my life the way some unseen force wants me to.

If you go thru life believing he isn't real...pissing on your fellow man...hating...murdering...slandering...lying...then I believe you'd made the choice for vengeance.Is this 'and' or 'or' we're talking about here?

strandinthewind

08-12-2007, 02:08 PM

. . . Is this 'and' or 'or' we're talking about here?

Well, it depends - are we discussing specifically your own personal and usual night out on the town :eek:

:angel: :angel: :angel: :angel:

mylittledemon

08-12-2007, 02:11 PM

Why would it bother you? As long as you have your faith why would you hate that others believe in something else?

And yes, if there is a heaven I'd imagine that a non-believer who has lived a good life would deserve to go there when they die and would be accepted with open arms. Do you think really think that not believing in God, or the right God or whatever, voids all their good deeds? The fact that you equate someone who doesn't believe in God with someone who deserves to burn in hell disturbs me. Having been brought up Catholic let me tell you, believing in God and even devoting your life to Him, doesn't automatically make you a good person.

It bothers me because I have a love for my fellow man.

Since yer asking me...I would also say the person who claims to be loving God and not loving his brother is just as bad as the non-believer who lives a good life.

danax6

08-12-2007, 02:11 PM

Well, it depends - are we discussing specifically your own personal and usual night out on the town :eek:

:angel: :angel: :angel: :angel:How do you know about my night out on the town? :eek: If anything, there was no pissing involved. :angel:

mylittledemon

08-12-2007, 02:14 PM

How does that suck? I certainly don't think there is anything after we die, we just become part of the eternal nothingness. At least I don't have to spend my life living in fear, thinking I might go to Hell if I don't live my life the way some unseen force wants me to.

Is this 'and' or 'or' we're talking about here?

You should read Michael Ende's "The NeverEnding Story"...In it, those that go into the "Nothing" become lies in the true world. Fiction yes, but it kinda supports your baseless belief. *wink*

strandinthewind

08-12-2007, 02:18 PM

How do you know about my night out on the town? :eek: If anything, there was no pissing involved. :angel:

:xoxo: :xoxo: :xoxo: :xoxo:

One day, I gotta cross the pond again and me, you, and Gerald are sitting for a few hours in a seedy pub!

gldstwmn

08-12-2007, 02:20 PM

trackaghost

08-12-2007, 02:26 PM

It bothers me because I have a love for my fellow man.

Since yer asking me...I would also say the person who claims to be loving God and not loving his brother is just as bad as the non-believer who lives a good life.

Erm, okay. So a good person who doesn't believe in god is as bad as, say, a pedophile priest. That's how that statement comes across.

Well, I'm not going to change your mind but it does make me sad, that you are living your life out of fear rather than love and you are basically judging people based on their beliefs rather than their actions.

carrie721

08-12-2007, 02:27 PM

For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. :shrug:

i agree with that statement. i just don't agree that it happens at the hands of god.

danax6

08-12-2007, 02:31 PM

You should read Michael Ende's "The NeverEnding Story"...In it, those that go into the "Nothing" become lies in the true world. Fiction yes, but it kinda supports your baseless belief. *wink*Thank you, I appreciate you telling me that my belief is 'baseless'. Just because I think that there is just not going to be anything after you pass away, that makes my belief baseless? I can come up with hundreds of arguments why I think what I think, just like you can come up with probably the same amount, it doesn't make either belief more founded than the other. Neither can be proven or disproven, so until then it will always remain a matter of opinion.

danax6

08-12-2007, 02:41 PM

:xoxo: :xoxo: :xoxo: :xoxo:

One day, I gotta cross the pond again and me, you, and Gerald are sitting for a few hours in a seedy pub!You wouldn't survive us. :xoxo:

DrummerDeanna

08-12-2007, 02:46 PM

And yes, if there is a heaven I'd imagine that a non-believer who has lived a good life would deserve to go there when they die and would be accepted with open arms. Do you think really think that not believing in God, or the right God or whatever, voids all their good deeds? The fact that you equate someone who doesn't believe in God with someone who deserves to burn in hell disturbs me. Having been brought up Catholic let me tell you, believing in God and even devoting your life to Him, doesn't automatically make you a good person.

Very well said. I am a Christian. But I don't follow the doctrine of any one relegion - and I don't believe the Bible is concrete fact (merely a TOOL to be used for guidance).

I believe everyone goes to "heaven" - or enjoys something in the afterlife- because God is a loving and FORGIVING God (is forgiveness not one of the main teaching of Christianity?). But I do believe there is a hell - and it's reserved for those who don't want forgiveness - who don't and never will see that the "bad" they did is, in fact, bad - extreme cases I guess - it's hard for me to actually put my feelings on that in writing because well it sounds a little kooky.

I hate the whole "you have to accept Jesus as your savior in order to get to heaven" thing. It's crap. With that belief the millions of people killed in Holocaust or many of those being killed in Darfur are automatically hell-bound. That's ridiculous.

In all - the people who cancel services because someone is gay are not Christian. People who judge other people because of what they believe or who they love are not Christian - they are taking Christian teachings and tossing them aside in the name of God. Not what we are called to do.

"And they'll know we are Christians by our love" -- not so true anymore...the opposite is pretty much true and I hate how fundies and judgemental bigots have distorted Christianity - it makes me very sad.

carrie721

08-12-2007, 03:05 PM

^^ :xoxo: :xoxo: :xoxo: :xoxo:

The Tower

08-12-2007, 03:49 PM

I don't believe in anything supernatural, nor do I subscribe to any religious dogma that man created in order to explain things/concepts that they couldn't understand or answer for at the time that the dogma was created.

With that said-

If I were the family from this thread, I would have had a private gathering honoring his life without considering sanction from some religious institution.

mylittledemon

08-12-2007, 04:03 PM

Thank you, I appreciate you telling me that my belief is 'baseless'. Just because I think that there is just not going to be anything after you pass away, that makes my belief baseless? I can come up with hundreds of arguments why I think what I think, just like you can come up with probably the same amount, it doesn't make either belief more founded than the other. Neither can be proven or disproven, so until then it will always remain a matter of opinion.

Not just because that's what you think...but baseless in literal terms. I dont know where folks get that "there is no God" belief. All the great religions of the world revolve around the deity. Is it because you want to believe that the rest of the world is wrong? Or you just want to believe that what you do here has no meaning whatsoever? The proof of God is all around you. In conception...in nature...in love. At the risk of sounding New Age, I dont know how you cant look at the beauty that is in the world and feel God. That was very "Jedi" but I cant think of a more simple way to put it.

mylittledemon

08-12-2007, 04:06 PM

I am a Christian.

But I don't follow the I don't believe the Bible is concrete fact (merely a TOOL to be used for guidance).

I believe everyone goes to "heaven" -

But I do believe there is a hell - and it's reserved for those who don't want forgiveness

I hate the whole "you have to accept Jesus as your savior in order to get to heaven" thing. It's crap.

Everything you said below the first sentence was contradictory to the first statement. I am by no means perfect, but if I was saying what you are saying, I'd re-examine my heart.

Miss Vicky

08-12-2007, 04:07 PM

I dont know how you cant look at the beauty that is in the world and feel God.

One might counter this argument by saying: "I don't know you can look at all the suffering, cruelty, and hatred in this world and still feel God."

And neither view is wrong or right. Get off your high horse. Believe what you will and let others do the same. :wavey:

mylittledemon

08-12-2007, 04:11 PM

Erm, okay. So a good person who doesn't believe in god is as bad as, say, a pedophile priest. That's how that statement comes across.

Well, I'm not going to change your mind but it does make me sad, that you are living your life out of fear rather than love and you are basically judging people based on their beliefs rather than their actions.

I'm not judging anyone...at least, I try my best not to. Lets just put it this way...everything I have said, for the most part...I try to apply to my OWN life. Its what feels right for me. I would never brow-beat someone into believing something.

And defines a "good" man? A married man with 2 children may provide for them, put them thru school...put food on the table...and yet it he betrays his friends and lies to his wife...where is the distinction? Who draws that line?

I think any person of faith (of any faith) could appreciate that. I dont live my life out of fear...and in that sense you have judged me too. I in fact, feel a little fear is a good thing. Fear of your parents...fear of your king...fear of your God...And by fear I mean a deep rooted honour/respect.

mylittledemon

08-12-2007, 04:13 PM

One might counter this argument by saying: "I don't know you can look at all the suffering, cruelty, and hatred in this world and still feel God."

And neither view is wrong or right. Get off your high horse. Believe what you will and let others do the same. :wavey:

Those evil things come from the hearts of men.

I dont feel I've been on a high horse. We're all having a discussion about what we believe. I've been getting my ideas across in a civil manner...and no one has gotten ugly yet. I think we all respect one another for the most part. Let's keep it that way.

Miss Vicky

08-12-2007, 04:18 PM

I dont feel I've been on a high horse.

Is that so?

Do you even understand God, or believe in one? I mean...take someone like Hitler...

Tell me, how's the view from up there?

BlackWidow

08-12-2007, 04:19 PM

We are all lamps and God is the electricity.
Whether you choose to plug in - is up to you.

carrie721

08-12-2007, 04:22 PM

Is that so?

or how about telling vanessa her beliefs are baseless?

mylittledemon

08-12-2007, 04:22 PM

Is that so?

Tell me, how's the view from up there?

Hey, I've been the first to say I'm not perfect. I was using Hitler as an example, because I think we all can agree he was a monster.

You seem to want to point that out personally and not contribute to the discussion...so perhaps you're the one on the horse. Oops, I better get off the horse..

mylittledemon

08-12-2007, 04:26 PM

or how about telling vanessa her beliefs are baseless?

Uh oh...a team up is brewing against me.

Umm...I'm waiting on V's response to my responding post. I wanted to know where her belief in a Nothingness came from. If it's her own opinion and she's not basing it on anything (least of all, some narrow view of dogma)...then I was right in saying it was baseless dont you think? My views my oppose from yours but I'm basing it on something Biblical. That's where the opposing opinions come in, which I can respect.

I'm not continuing in this thread to offend anyone...I'm completely interested in what everyone thinks and feels. If I came across rude or pig-headed, I am sorry for that.

Miss Vicky

08-12-2007, 04:26 PM

I was using Hitler as an example, because I think we all can agree he was a monster.

I wasn't talking about the Hitler statement. I was talking about your questioning of someone's understanding of God.

It's an extremely condescending thing to say in a "civil" conversation.

carrie721

08-12-2007, 04:28 PM

Uh oh...a team up is brewing against me.

Umm...I'm waiting on V's response to my responding post. I wanted to know where her belief in a Nothingness came from. If it's her own opinion and she's not basing it on anything (least of all, some narrow view of dogma)...then I was right in saying it was baseless dont you think? My views my oppose from yours but I'm basing it on something Biblical. That's where the opposing opinions come in, which I can respect.

I'm not continuing in this thread to offend anyone...I'm completely interested in what everyone thinks and feels. If I came across rude or pig-headed, I am sorry for that.

please, nobody is ganging up on you.

it's extremely arrogant to say that someone's beliefs are baseless. why does vanessa have to base her beliefs on anything to make them credible? it works for her. that's all that matters.

mylittledemon

08-12-2007, 04:31 PM

I wasn't talking about the Hitler statement. I was talking about your questioning of someone's understanding of God.

It's an extremely condescending thing to say in a "civil" conversation.

Starling's original comment had referred to his god having nothing to do with "vengeance" and what i should have said was that (at least in all the major religions of the world) that the deity's claim vengeance or recompense in some form or another. Thus my seemingly rude "Do you even understand God" comment...It just came across as an opinion, not a fundamental thing to say. Which is ok too.

Stew_Matthews

08-12-2007, 04:31 PM

I dont know where folks get that "there is no God" belief. All the great religions of the world revolve around the deity. Is it because you want to believe that the rest of the world is wrong? Or you just want to believe that what you do here has no meaning whatsoever?

I must admit that I have agreed with every post Vanessa has made in this thread.

I struggle to reconcile the way the US promotes the disadvantaged and minorities whilst supporting quite extreme (in my view) Christian values. It doesn't stack up easily for me.

On the belief thing generally, I'm a scientist by education and can easily understand how life occurs and have no doubt that we'll all emerge from a test tube in years to come. I am firmly an atheist and intend to make the most of the time I'm alive. It's one shot as far as I'm concerned

A key thing though is respect (yeah not a ledge thing! though in fact not a criticism of you). I have seen enough in the world to write off all religions, however for those who do believe I'm happy for them to get on and do their thing and I respect their conventions as long as people like me, or those with non mainstrean lifestyles can quietly get abbout our lives.

It really is about live and let live.

mylittledemon

08-12-2007, 04:32 PM

please, nobody is ganging up on you.

it's extremely arrogant to say that someone's beliefs are baseless.

HAHA...NOT if it's LITERALLY based on nothing. Maybe the word baseless just sounds crass.

carrie721

08-12-2007, 04:33 PM

It really is about live and let live.

good to see you around :xoxo:

carrie721

08-12-2007, 04:34 PM

HAHA...NOT if it's LITERALLY based on nothing. Maybe the word baseless just sounds crass.

it's based in her own thoughts and life experiences. that is all she (or anyone) needs.

mylittledemon

08-12-2007, 04:38 PM

I struggle to reconcile the way the US promotes the disadvantaged and minorities whilst supporting quite extreme (in my view) Christian values. It doesn't stack up easily for me.

Which is why Britain lets, for example, a man who had no right to stay in the country stay after he sewed his eyes shut in protest because he didnt want to go back to whatever Middle Eastern country he was from. Sure, lets pay for a soppy wanker like that to stay. What kind of promotion is that?

The "extreme" Judeo-Christian ethic this country seemingly was founded on is dissolving day by day. Personally, I feel the US is becoming an increasingly more violent, dangerous, unblessed place to be. Whether its because the values are being turned away from or not I leave up to your thought.

DrummerDeanna

08-12-2007, 04:43 PM

Everything you said below the first sentence was contradictory to the first statement. I am by no means perfect, but if I was saying what you are saying, I'd re-examine my heart.

It is in no way contradictory.

I am a Christian in that I believe in Jesus. I believe in God. How I choose to follow through with my beliefs and how I view things and the world are not contradictory. Perhaps they are contradictory to whaveter narrow view you clearly have is.

And some of the things YOU describe as God - others see as science.

The non-beliefe in God is no less "baseless" or absurd than your belief in God.

Can you provide concrete proof of one other than your own belief? NO. And conversley - no one can provide concrete proof there is not one? No.

So basically we all believe what we believe - no one is the less for it - and no one's own personal beliefs should be labeled as "baseless" or as silly or wrong.

You tell me to reexamine my heart of whatever - yet you claim to not be on a high horse. Clearly you are - at least what you've been saying comes across that way. What I'm getting is "I'm right and you all need to re-examine because you're wrong" and basically that doesn't sit too well with lots of folks.

Stew_Matthews

08-12-2007, 04:47 PM

Which is why Britain lets, for example, a man who had no right to stay in the country stay after he sewed his eyes shut in protest because he didnt want to go back to whatever Middle Eastern country he was from. Sure, lets pay for a soppy wanker like that to stay. What kind of promotion is that?

The "extreme" Judeo-Christian ethic this country seemingly was founded on is dissolving day by day. Personally, I feel the US is becoming an increasingly more violent, dangerous, unblessed place to be. Whether its because the values are being turned away from or not I leave up to your thought.

I'm not sure what point you're making. I wasn't making a US versus UK comparison but it is fair to say that in the UK we don't have people turning up at funerals waving placards or refusing to bury people. The UK may be a bit too liberal - I don't know:shrug: .

strandinthewind

08-12-2007, 04:49 PM

You wouldn't survive us. :xoxo:

I held my own against Gerald in the Dallas heat and with the Mac in the hotel :shrug:

But, a tag team effort on foreign soil might just do me in :cool:

mylittledemon

08-12-2007, 04:51 PM

It is in no way contradictory.

I am a Christian in that I believe in Jesus. I believe in God. How I choose to follow through with my beliefs and how I view things and the world are not contradictory. Perhaps they are contradictory to whaveter narrow view you clearly have is.

And some of the things YOU describe as God - others see as science.

The non-beliefe in God is no less "baseless" or absurd than your belief in God.

Can you provide concrete proof of one other than your own belief? NO. And conversley - no one can provide concrete proof there is not one? No.

So basically we all believe what we believe - no one is the less for it - and no one's own personal beliefs should be labeled as "baseless" or as silly or wrong.

You tell me to reexamine my heart of whatever - yet you claim to not be on a high horse. Clearly you are - at least what you've been saying comes across that way. What I'm getting is "I'm right and you all need to re-examine because you're wrong" and basically that doesn't sit too well with lots of folks.

I could never say I was a "Christian" and say that I didnt believe the Bible was true....or that you dont need to believe in Jesus Christ. That is the fundamental belief! I personally dont think a "broad" view of Christianity is acceptible. I would much rather believe that my own personal narrow mindness (in regards to me, myself and I salvation) is right, rather than believing "everyone goes to heaven" theory.

I've apologized more than once in this thread for coming across as being on a "High horse"...and I've stated I am in no way perfect. I'm trying to understand why some of you believe WHAT you do...thats all. I really and truly not mean to be a prick. I'm sorry! I care about everyone here...hell, I've been on here for 6 years. I will say this has sparked some interesting discussion.

mylittledemon

08-12-2007, 04:56 PM

I'm not sure what point you're making. I wasn't making a US versus UK comparison but it is fair to say that in the UK we don't have people turning up at funerals waving placards or refusing to bury people. The UK may be a bit too liberal - I don't know:shrug: .

I was just pointing out that the UK, like us has just as many problems. But in regards to the original funeral topic...i see your point. +1 for the Mancs.

strandinthewind

08-12-2007, 04:59 PM

. . . it's extremely arrogant to say that someone's beliefs are baseless. why does vanessa have to base her beliefs on anything to make them credible? it works for her. that's all that matters.

I would not say it is arrogant in the true sense of that term. I would use something like ethnocentric instead. I watched a show the other day on Wiccans. When asked if they were satan worshippers, against God, etc. One replied that they could not answer that. The questioner took that to mean yes, they were satan worshippers. The Wiccan then explained that the question could not be answered because they did not believe in the concept of satan, God, Heaven, or hell.

I think that applies here. Brandon used the term baseless within the confines of Christianity, which is his religion, and other major religions of the world. He is correct from that vantage point. However, he is incorrect to assume the existence of any foundation for an atheistic belief in one who does not believe in Christianity. In other words, Christian axioms cannot be applied against someone who does not believe in Chriatianity at all. I think a more correct reply would have been, there is no bases in Christianity or any of the world's other religions for your belief in no God at all. That statement is true and cannot be proven false.

DrummerDeanna

08-12-2007, 05:00 PM

Miss Vicky

08-12-2007, 05:01 PM

I'm trying to understand why some of you believe WHAT you do...thats all.

You keep saying that you're truly interested in finding out why people believe what they do, but the words you use in the actual conversation point to a different motivation. The way it comes across to me and to several others is that you're trying to find out what people believe so that you can tell them why they're wrong and why you're right. If you really want open conversation, then you need to learn to reserve judgement.

But I don't believe that open conversation is your goal anyway.

trackaghost

08-12-2007, 05:04 PM

And defines a "good" man? A married man with 2 children may provide for them, put them thru school...put food on the table...and yet it he betrays his friends and lies to his wife...where is the distinction? Who draws that line?

So your distinction between what makes a good man and a bad man, is a belief in God? Once again I'd say what makes a good person is their actions, not beliefs.

Stew_Matthews

08-12-2007, 05:05 PM

I was just pointing out that the UK, like us has just as many problems. But in regards to the original funeral topic...i see your point. +1 for the Mancs.

Fine - I get the point.

:) Probably the worst thing you could have ever said to me was that I was from Leeds - the second that I was a Manc:lol: Geography isn't a US 'thing' so I'll let it go. I'm in the Middle East now but I'm a Londoner - there is nothing 'northern' about me!! Us Southerners get very upset about being classed as northern:)

Impressed you knew Manc as a shorthand for Mancunian though......

strandinthewind

08-12-2007, 05:06 PM

. . . I have seen enough in the world to write off all religions . . . .

First of all, hey there!

Second, I likely feel the opposite. I have around the world and the main thing I got and continue to get is mankind, for whatever reason, flocks, perhaps, needs, the notion that some higher level exists. I am not in any way talking about organized religion here, other than that is the most historically effective way of expressing this need since the record started being written, which also is when the abuse of that power began :shrug: I am talking more about God, or whatever you call it, being in everything and everyone at the same time - sort of like in Whitman's Song of Myself, posted here http://www.daypoems.net/poems/1900.html

Scientifically, for this to occur, it must have some provable basis. I suggest that basis can be found when one is in love. Is that euphoric sense merely an hormonal thing? Or, is that obvious orbital penumbra a hint at something else on another plane. I choose the latter.

carrie721

08-12-2007, 05:08 PM

Geography isn't a US 'thing' so I'll let it go.

sad but true. i know people who couldn't even identify all the states. i'll keep your comment about leeds in mind, though, if i ever need to use it against you :D

DrummerDeanna

08-12-2007, 05:09 PM

sad but true. i know people who couldn't even identify all the states. i'll keep your comment about leeds in mind, though, if i ever need to use it against you :D

Hey I can name all 52 of them!! :mad:

:p :p

michelle2677

08-12-2007, 05:10 PM

fkljadsfkljewiofvnlskadgkladsjf

okay. I reeeaaalllly didn't want to get into this discussion. I DO wish that I could say I believed everyone who is a good person goes to heaven and is welcomed with open arms. I wish it were that way, but unfortunately, I'm not the one passing judgement on people. Everything I've been taught says you have to accept Jesus Christ in conjunction with living a decent life. That doesn't mean everyone who DOES accept JC leads a perfect life. I sure as hell don't. I also don't agree with someone who accepts and continues to live as they choose to be worthy of going to heaven. But again, I dont' make the rules. I really doubt a priest who is a pedophile is going to Heaven :shrug: That's just my opinion. I personally don't think someone who continues to lead their life that way is a true Christian. Again..this is just my opinion. I don't agree with the whole "sin, repent, sin, repent, sin, repent" cycle. That is just using it as a safety net and to make sure you're "covered". Anyway..i'm getting off. I agree there are Non Christians who are good people. Absolutely. But Christianity means something different to me. It's not about judging your fellow man. It's not about asking for forgiveness and then turning around to do the same thing you asked forgiveness for. It's not about wars, killings and "what I believe is better than what you believe". it just is what it is. I usually keep pretty quiet about my beliefs because I don't want to push anything on anyone. But since we are having the discussion :lol:

anyway, that was a long ramble, that probably didn't make sense but it's been a long time since I really typed or wrote out how I felt about it. :o

mylittledemon

08-12-2007, 05:11 PM

You keep saying that you're truly interested in finding out why people believe what they do, but the words you use in the actual conversation point to a different motivation. The way it comes across to me and to several others is that you're trying to find out what people believe so that you can tell them why they're wrong and why you're right. If you really want open conversation, then you need to learn to reserve judgement.

But I don't believe that open conversation is your goal anyway.

I have meant no condemnation...maybe there was a little sarcasm in there. I think ultimately, anyone who really cares for those around them (especially those that share no belief in anything) would do the same.

I will defend myself in saying that i have said more than once that I am of course referring to Myself, my personal salvation...what I believe is right for ME...but in doing so, its always going to come across as if you're pushing it on someone else. It's not my intention. The intention is to merely get across what my conviction has rewarded me.

I tried my best to back up why I believe what I do, and the points I made...when other arguments were made based (less) on opinions. You seemingly were quick to point out that i was being holier than thou. Maybe thats just what I needed...

because I do believe that your journey thru this life...all the way to the end, is a personal thing. And I suppose that no matter what you truly believe, when you reach this end of this life...your beliefs and actions with either condemn you or give you life.

michelle2677

08-12-2007, 05:12 PM

Us Southerners get very upset about being classed as northern:)

not that it is really "northern" but I would rather die in a puddle of my own **** than have someone think I was from Ohio.

btw :wavey: :)

carrie721

08-12-2007, 05:14 PM

Hey I can name all 52 of them!! :mad:

:p :p

well clearly you're the exception :D

strandinthewind

08-12-2007, 05:15 PM

. . . The "extreme" Judeo-Christian ethic this country seemingly was founded on is dissolving day by day. . . . .

That statement is incorrect. The USA was founded on the Magna Carter, a system of property rights, and on the fact that we did not want taxation by King George, without representation in his government. True, the non Cathoic demoninations had earlier fled, along with many others for other reasons, to this country to escape religious persecution. But, the fact remains that the drafters of the Const. and other contemporaneous docs, were very clear in their intent to obviate the appearance of sanctioning any particular religion, though the majority of the transplanted population was Judeo Christian. See Treaty of Tripolihttp://www.earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html

More to your point though is that violence, unwanted pregnancies, waste, fraud, trickery, etc. in America could be alleviated by less religion in government than more of it. The utter failure of "Just Say No" and "Abstinence Only" are documentation of that.

carrie721

08-12-2007, 05:15 PM

not that it is really "northern" but I would rather die in a puddle of my own **** than have someone think I was from Ohio.

btw :wavey: :)

bitch-ass ho :lol: :lol:

mylittledemon

08-12-2007, 05:18 PM

Fine - I get the point.

:) Probably the worst thing you could have ever said to me was that I was from Leeds - the second that I was a Manc:lol: Geography isn't a US 'thing' so I'll let it go. I'm in the Middle East now but I'm a Londoner - there is nothing 'northern' about me!! Us Southerners get very upset about being classed as northern:)

Impressed you knew Manc as a shorthand for Mancunian though......

I am fairly well traveled! haha...I knew you'd say something about it. Nothing wrong with being a Manc! THey are good folk. Now the Welsh...(haha)

michelle2677

08-12-2007, 05:19 PM

bitch-ass ho :lol: :lol:
:xoxo: :xoxo:

carrie721

08-12-2007, 05:21 PM

I would not say it is arrogant in the true sense of that term. I would use something like ethnocentric instead. I watched a show the other day on Wiccans. When asked if they were satan worshippers, against God, etc. One replied that they could not answer that. The questioner took that to mean yes, they were satan worshippers. The Wiccan then explained that the question could not be answered because they did not believe in the concept of satan, God, Heaven, or hell.

I think that applies here. Brandon used the term baseless within the confines of Christianity, which is his religion, and other major religions of the world. He is correct from that vantage point. However, he is incorrect to assume the existence of any foundation for an atheistic belief in one who does not believe in Christianity. In other words, Christian axioms cannot be applied against someone who does not believe in Chriatianity at all.

hang on suzanne, let me pull out your favorite argument technique :D

ar·ro·gant (ăr'ə-gənt) pronunciation
adj.

1. Having or displaying a sense of overbearing self-worth or self-importance.
2. Marked by or arising from a feeling or assumption of one's superiority toward others: an arrogant contempt for the weak.

i think that that level of ethnocentricity (if that's what you want to call it) clearly displays "a sense of overbearing self-worth."

I think a more correct reply would have been, there is no bases in Christianity or any of the world's other religions for your belief in no God at all. That statement is true and cannot be proven false.

i agree, but i don't think he was trying to say there is no base for her beliefs in christianity. i think he was trying to say that her beliefs weren't valid at all.

Stew_Matthews

08-12-2007, 05:21 PM

First of all, hey there!

Second, I likely feel the opposite. I have around the world and the main thing I got and continue to get is mankind, for whatever reason, flocks, perhaps, needs, the notion that some higher level exists. I am not in any way talking about organized religion here, other than that is the most historically effective way of expressing this need since the record started being written, which also is when the abuse of that power began :shrug: I am talking more about God, or whatever you call it, being in everything and everyone at the same time - sort of like in Whitman's Song of Myself, posted here http://www.daypoems.net/poems/1900.html

Scientifically, for this to occur, it must have some provable basis. I suggest that basis can be found when one is in love. Is that euphoric sense merely an hormonal thing? Or, is that obvious orbital penumbra a hint at something else on another plane. I choose the latter.

I was in Petra at the beginning of the month (Jordan). A stunning amazing place all built in the name of god. And just across the Red Sea was Luxor and all the Egyptian sites (another god thing) and I was thinking how these places must have really inspired people and how just their creation must have promoted the belief in religion - such is their visual impact - breathtaking places.

But most of the oil industry I see is in impoverished places - Siberia, Iraq (where I am now) West Africa and all of them suffer from one sort of religious fanatacism or other - it really isn't an advert for religion!

strandinthewind

08-12-2007, 05:22 PM

. . . I'm in the Middle East now . . .

As you are there and I have been close to it, but never actually in any significant part of it, is the press to be believed when they portray the Middle East as populated by mostly religious zealots. The US often is portrayed that way, but I think any actions here other than rhetoric by Pat Robertson and the like, pales in comparison to the almost child like following of religion we are shown to occur there. Anyway, i'd love to hear your perspective as I value and hold in high regard your well reasoned and enlightening points of view, though mine may differ on occasion.

strandinthewind

08-12-2007, 05:27 PM

hang on suzanne, let me pull out your favorite argument technique :D

ar·ro·gant (ăr'ə-gənt) pronunciation
adj.

1. Having or displaying a sense of overbearing self-worth or self-importance.
2. Marked by or arising from a feeling or assumption of one's superiority toward others: an arrogant contempt for the weak.

i think that that level of ethnocentricity (if that's what you want to call it) clearly displays "a sense of overbearing self-worth."

i agree, but i don't think he was trying to say there is no base for her beliefs in christianity. i think he was trying to say that her beliefs weren't valid at all.

I disagree and I think he has said as much in his replies. If he meant anything different, then he is incorrect. But, I do not see his argument from his faith as arrogent in way that term is defined. I do not think he was asserting that he is self important nor do I think he was acting in a superior manner, though some obviously, and IMO incorrectly, took his post as that. I think that is not like him. Again, I think he merely was arguing from the vantage point of his faith and did not consider the statement outside of that vantage point.

Stew_Matthews

08-12-2007, 05:30 PM

sad but true. i know people who couldn't even identify all the states. i'll keep your comment about leeds in mind, though, if i ever need to use it against you :D

Sorry - Hi to you:xoxo:

You want to ask BretonBanquet whether he's from Leeds - then stand well back:nod:

It's a bad thing to say to us Southerners!

strandinthewind

08-12-2007, 05:30 PM

I was in Petra at the beginning of the month (Jordan). A stunning amazing place all built in the name of god. And just across the Red Sea was Luxor and all the Egyptian sites (another god thing) and I was thinking how these places must have really inspired people and how just their creation must have promoted the belief in religion - such is their visual impact - breathtaking places.

But most of the oil industry I see is in impoverished places - Siberia, Iraq (where I am now) West Africa and all of them suffer from one sort of religious fanatacism or other - it really isn't an advert for religion!

Wow - I am pea green with envy at the thought of going to those places. One day, but sadly, not one day soon, I will get there!

But, I agree, when I look at the religions of the poorer parts of Africa and in the Middle East, I see the iron hand of early Catholocism weilding the dealy tow the line sword. It is like watching the 1200's to the 1700's replay themselves.

Man is his worst predator :shrug:

strandinthewind

08-12-2007, 05:31 PM

Sorry - Hi to you:xoxo:

You want to ask BretonBanquet whether he's from Leeds - then stand well back:nod:

It's a bad thing to say to us Southerners!

I thought you were a Scot :wavey: :wavey:

carrie721

08-12-2007, 05:32 PM

I thought you were a Scot :wavey: :wavey:

ouuuuuuuuuuuch. :lol:

Stew_Matthews

08-12-2007, 05:39 PM

As you are there and I have been close to it, but never actually in any significant part of it, is the press to be believed when they portray the Middle East as populated by mostly religious zealots. The US often is portrayed that way, but I think any actions here other than rhetoric by Pat Robertson and the like, pales in comparison to the almost child like following of religion we are shown to occur there. Anyway, i'd love to hear your perspective as I value and hold in high regard your well reasoned and enlightening points of view, though mine may differ on occasion.

I've only been in Baghdad a few days. It took a week to drive from Jordan. In fact the only reason I am on this PC is that I am collecting my permits to drive a car 'round the city so I'm in the US area and it has IT systems. I did spend five weeks here in May/June so I'm familiar with parts of the city.

To be honest it's pretty chilled. It's the main highway that's a bit of a worry. To get to Dura (where I am working) you have to travel the section from the airport to the south of the city. It is a bit scary. Other than that the main problem is that there is no power and no water - well about two hours a day. It is 3am and about 30 degrees C - so with no air con and no water, everyone is bound to be pissed off!

carrie721

08-12-2007, 05:41 PM

Sorry - Hi to you:xoxo:

You want to ask BretonBanquet whether he's from Leeds - then stand well back:nod:

It's a bad thing to say to us Southerners!

okay that didn't go over well :lol: :lol: :lol:

strandinthewind

08-12-2007, 05:42 PM

I've only been in Baghdad a few days. It took a week to drive from Jordan. In fact the only reason I am on this PC is that I am collecting my permits to drive a car 'round the city so I'm in the US area and it has IT systems. I did spend five weeks here in May/June so I'm familiar with parts of the city.

To be honest it's pretty chilled. It's the main highway that's a bit of a worry. To get to Dura (where I am working) you have to travel the section from the airport to the south of the city. It is a bit scary. Other than that the main problem is that there is no power and no water - well about two hours a day. It is 3am and about 30 degrees C - so with no air con and no water, everyone is bound to be pissed off!

Be CAREFUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And, take in as much as you can.

BlackWidow

08-12-2007, 05:42 PM

Stew_Matthews

08-12-2007, 05:42 PM

I thought you were a Scot :wavey: :wavey:

You know I'm not cos I get washed and use deodorant. We've had this discussion before:nod:

strandinthewind

08-12-2007, 05:43 PM

okay that didn't go over well :lol: :lol: :lol:

It is the same in America though - I think most people not from the South think we all eat dirt down here :shrug:

buch of horse face Yankees I say :nod:

strandinthewind

08-12-2007, 05:45 PM

You know I'm not cos I get washed and use deodorant. We've had this discussion before:nod:

I was being silly. Also, I applaud you on the hygeine, especially in the reagion you are in now and the conditions you described.

carrie721

08-12-2007, 05:47 PM

It is the same in America though - I think most people not from the South think we all eat dirt down here :shrug:

buch of horse face Yankees I say :nod:

biotch :xoxo:

do you not eat dirt? :confused:

Stew_Matthews

08-12-2007, 05:48 PM

Honey..What the HELL are you doing in Iraq???:eek:

Trying to get the oil price down before Ethan starts the 'gas price' thread again!

BlackWidow

08-12-2007, 05:49 PM

Trying to get the oil price down before Ethan starts the 'gas price' thread again!

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Take care of your hunky self!!:wavey:

carrie721

08-12-2007, 05:50 PM

Trying to get the oil price down before Ethan starts the 'gas price' thread again!

:laugh: valiant work indeed!

markolas

08-12-2007, 06:00 PM

Dunno what else there is to say that hasn't been said, other than I don't understand why he wanted to have his funeral at this church in the first place, unless it was his family calling the shots.

After being initially peeved about another bigoted Christian church, my only reaction is "to hell with them." Find another place for the funeral. And I most certainly wouldn't have taken their money...so kudos to the family for that.

bretonbanquet

08-12-2007, 06:07 PM

I am fairly well traveled! haha...I knew you'd say something about it. Nothing wrong with being a Manc! THey are good folk. Now the Welsh...(haha)

What's wrong with the Welsh?

Sorry - Hi to you:xoxo:

You want to ask BretonBanquet whether he's from Leeds - then stand well back:nod:

It's a bad thing to say to us Southerners!

You definitely don't want to ask me that :p I can get animated :laugh:

carrie721

08-12-2007, 06:14 PM

What's wrong with the Welsh?

i don't know, but i've heard some shady things about the cornish :distress:

bretonbanquet

08-12-2007, 06:15 PM

i don't know, but i've heard some shady things about the cornish :distress:

Expect a couple of armed goons at your door within the hour :)

carrie721

08-12-2007, 06:17 PM

Expect a couple of armed goons at your door within the hour :)

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

i'm just saying i've HEARD things :D :D :D

mylittledemon

08-12-2007, 06:18 PM

I disagree and I think he has said as much in his replies. If he meant anything different, then he is incorrect. But, I do not see his argument from his faith as arrogent in way that term is defined. I do not think he was asserting that he is self important nor do I think he was acting in a superior manner, though some obviously, and IMO incorrectly, took his post as that. I think that is not like him. Again, I think he merely was arguing from the vantage point of his faith and did not consider the statement outside of that vantage point.

Right. My apologies and foot-in-mouth removal seems to have gone unnoticed.

mylittledemon

08-12-2007, 06:21 PM

What's wrong with the Welsh?

:

The comment was tongue in cheek. They are a good, singing, hearty folk. My family has Welsh heritage.

Stew_Matthews

08-12-2007, 06:25 PM

They are a good, singing, hearty folk.

Yes Charlotte Church is very popular:)

bretonbanquet

08-12-2007, 06:26 PM

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

i'm just saying i've HEARD things :D :D :D

Depends who you've heard them from :p

The comment was tongue in cheek. They are a good, singing, hearty folk. My family has Welsh heritage.

OK :)

danax6

08-12-2007, 06:36 PM

Okay, little late to the party, I went out to see I Now Pronounce You Chuck and Larry. Heh.

Not just because that's what you think...but baseless in literal terms. I dont know where folks get that "there is no God" belief. Well, and I can argue that I don't know where folks get that "there is a God" belief. On what do you base that? Some book some people wrote a few centuries ago? Many books have been written about what I belief also.

All the great religions of the world revolve around the deity. Is it because you want to believe that the rest of the world is wrong?The rest of the world? So, it's me against the entire rest of the world? Maybe you should open your eyes a little more?

Or you just want to believe that what you do here has no meaning whatsoever?Because I don't believe in God my existence on this planet has no meaning? Is that actually what you are saying? Why does there have to be a God to give life meaning? I feel really sorry for you if that is what you believe.

The proof of God is all around you. In conception...in nature...in love. At the risk of sounding New Age, I dont know how you cant look at the beauty that is in the world and feel God.Because the way I see it, proof of evolution is all around us. I always approach the matter of 'life' very scientifically, and really, life ends when the body dies. Heaven and Hell have only been created to keep people in a constant state of fear. Apparently it works.

I can provide endless documents of scientific proof, and I'll be glad to put that up against your bible, but I for one am not interested in making comparisons or preaching about why one thing is better than the other. Everyone has their own 'bible', whether literally or not, and what's important is that you stand behind what you believe in. Being true to myself makes my life very meaningful, thank you very much.

mylittledemon

08-12-2007, 06:37 PM

i think that that level of ethnocentricity (if that's what you want to call it) clearly displays "a sense of overbearing self-worth."

i agree, but i don't think he was trying to say there is no base for her beliefs in christianity. i think he was trying to say that her beliefs weren't valid at all.

I never said they were invalid...baseless. There is a BIG difference. We're all mincing words. And if you knew me at ALL...an overbearing sense of self worth is the LAST fuc*king thing I've got on my list of traits.

mylittledemon

08-12-2007, 06:49 PM

Okay, little late to the party, I went out to see I Now Pronounce You Chuck and Larry. Heh.

Well, and I can argue that I don't know where folks get that "there is a God" belief. On what do you base that? Some book some people wrote a few centuries ago? Many books have been written about what I belief also.

The rest of the world? So, it's me against the entire rest of the world? Maybe you should open your eyes a little more?

Because I don't believe in God my existence on this planet has no meaning? Is that actually what you are saying? Why does there have to be a God to give life meaning? I feel really sorry for you if that is what you believe.

Because the way I see it, the proof of evolution is all around us. I always approach the matter of 'life' very scientifically, and really, life ends when the body dies. Heaven and Hell have only been created to keep people in an constant state of fear. Apparantly it works.

I can provide endless documents of scientific proof, and I'll be glad to put that up against your bible, but I for one am not interested in making comparisons or preaching about why one thing is better than the other. Everyone has their own 'bible', whether literally or not, and what's important is that you stand behind what you belief in. Being true to myself makes my life very meaningful, thank you very much.

The Bible was written more than "few" centuries ago. As was the Koran. The argument for a God seems more evident in those books alone than just your personal opinion.

Well in a way, it is you against the rest of the world. To varying degrees. You're gonna leave this world alone after all.

I guess you're misunderstanding me. I didnt say a belief in God is necessary to give meaning to your life. But what meaning is there otherwise? Serving yourself? I couldnt have a clean conscience knowing that I lived my life merely for my own pleasure. Selfishness is unbecoming.

Evolution is still, after all this time, a theory and it will remain so. Doesnt mean I dont believe in adaptation and co-evolution...or extinction for that matter. But Man will always try to understand and put things in a box which he cannot ultimately understand so that he CAN understand it. If God who is above science and our own reasoning truly created the universe according the the Bible, then wouldnt our techniques of science being somewhat flawed? Wouldnt a search for God in science be skewed?

BlackWidow

08-12-2007, 06:51 PM

Right. My apologies and foot-in-mouth removal seems to have gone unnoticed.

Nothing about you goes unnoticed...;)

mylittledemon

08-12-2007, 06:59 PM

Nothing about you goes unnoticed...;)

HAHA...i think i get verbally pounded because I'm not a "lefty" or "liberal" (i hate those words but they just popped in) among other things...and I was the only one who was supportive of Bush in a few threads. That certainly didnt give me any bonus points.

The majority of us Ledgies have strong opinions, and the stands some of us take (including myself evidently) would curl most toes up like the dead Wicked Witch of the West. oh no, there I go playing the martyr along with being on my horse. Damnit..!

BlackWidow

08-12-2007, 07:03 PM

HAHA...i think i get verbally pounded because I'm not a "lefty" or "liberal" (i hate those words but they just popped in) among other things...and I was the only one who was supportive of Bush in a few threads. That certainly didnt give me any bonus points.

The majority of us Ledgies have strong opinions, and the stands some of us take (including myself evidently) would curl most toes up like the dead Wicked Witch of the West. oh no, there I go playing the martyr along with being on my horse. Damnit..!

"....You can ride high atop your pony..I know you won't fall..cuz the whole things phony. You can fly swinging from the trapeeze..scaring all the people - but you'll never scare me"

danax6

08-12-2007, 07:09 PM

The Bible was written more than "few" centuries ago. As was the Koran.It was not meant to be taken that literally.

The argument for a God seems more evident in those books alone than just your personal opinion.This is not just my personal opinion. And even it was, aren't I entitled to have it? What makes your opinion better than mine?

Well in a way, it is you against the rest of the world. To varying degrees. You're gonna leave this world alone after all.The rest of the world has nothing to do with my dying or not. Just because I think people cease to exist after death, that means I am all alone in this world? I just don't get your reasoning. Just because there won't be people waiting for me on the other side doesn't make my life on this side lonely or any less meaningful. In contrary, I am with Sharon on this... it makes you want to live your life to the fullest, because hey, you only get one chance.

I guess you're misunderstanding me. I didnt say a belief in God is necessary to give meaning to your life. But what meaning is there otherwise?Then isn't that exactly what you are saying? You are kind of contradicting yourself there.

Serving yourself? I couldnt have a clean conscience knowing that I lived my life merely for my own pleasure. Selfishness is unbecoming.It has nothing to do with selfishness! You can only be selfless if you live your life the way somebody else dictates you to? How freakin' twisted is that? Compassion for other human beings doesn't lie in faith or the bible or in God, it lies within yourself.

Evolution is still, after all this time, a theory and it will remain so.It is just as much a theory as the existence of God is. More or less people believing in something doesn't make it more or less true.

Doesnt mean I dont believe in adaptation and co-evolution...or extinction for that matter. But Man will always try to understand and put things in a box which he cannot ultimately understand so that he CAN understand it.Isn't believing in God or any other high spirit essentially putting something in a box (or book) because he cannot understand it either? Religion, to me, is the easy way out. Nobody is even trying to find some basis for their beliefs, they all attribute it to 'just being the way it is'. I guess I am too curious by nature to settle for that.

If God who is above science and our own reasoning truly created the universe according the the Bible, then wouldnt our techniques of science being somewhat flawed? Wouldnt a search for God in science be skewed?I can't answer that because I don't believe in a God above science.

mylittledemon

08-12-2007, 07:52 PM

I can't answer that because I don't believe in a God above science.

Ouch. I wish I could say for you that I hope your convictions are true.

Let me ask you this. When you die...lets say hypothetically you come face to face with the God of the universe that you say you dont believe in...what would you say to him if he brought up this comment?

strandinthewind

08-12-2007, 08:18 PM

Yes Charlotte Church is very popular:)

OH YOU DID NOT GO THERE :laugh:

So, I shall now walk through the door you just opened :laugh:

emphasis supplied

Charlotte's binge bravado

June 22, 2005

Nineteen-year-old diva Charlotte Church is under fire for admitting she likes to "go out on the lash".

Since her 18th birthday gave her access to her multi-million dollar fortune, she has regularly been pictured tottering unsteadily from nightclubs, bleary-eyed and dishevelled.

But now the singer has revealed the full extent of her binge-drinking in a candid interview. And it makes chilling reading for those who fear Britain's young women are increasingly abusing alcohol.

For her, an average night out involves downing her favourite "Cheeky Vimto" cocktail - a double port mixed with a sugary vodka-based alcopop, so named because it tastes like Vimto chewy bars - before leaving her house, then topping it up with another 10 double vodkas.

She regaled readers of Heat magazine with tales of her drinking prowess - and penchant for slamming down alcohol for the sole purpose of getting utterly drunk - as her boyfriend, Gavin Henson, the rugby-playing half of Wales's "golden couple", demonstrated his sporting prowess by slamming down two tries for the Lions in New Zealand.

"If I'm home, I'll start with a Cheeky Vimto - double port and a bottle of WKD Blue in the same glass. It tastes just like Vimto or Ribena. They're lethal," she added. "Once I'm out, I'll have about 10 double vodkas. Then I'm pretty much KO'ed.

"But if I'm in London, the club owners give me loads of bottles of free champagne. I hate champagne. I still drink it though."

Church, who found fame aged 11 as a classical singer and who recently released a pop album, has striven to shake off her "Voice of an Angel" image for something more raunchy.

Her alcohol-fuelled nights out with her pals - mainly girlfriends from the working-class suburb of Cardiff where she grew up - often result in pictures of them grinning drunkenly all over the tabloid newspapers. She celebrated her 19th birthday in February with a 72-hour bender.

But she also disclosed that she likes to go out on the town with her mother, Maria, a classical guitarist and housing officer, and her aunt because they, too, are "party animals".

Yet, she professes not to enjoy the taste. "I don't actually like alcohol," she said. "If I'm having a meal, I'll have lemonade.

"The only time I drink is to get pissed and dance like a crazy woman."

The interview is bound to dismay campaigners who claim that drinks manufacturers are targeting teenage girls with sugary alcopops that disguise the high volume of alcohol.

Heavy drinking by role models such as Church and other personalities dubbed "ladettes" is also being blamed for an increase in alcohol consumption, particularly among 16- to 24-year-olds who are the most prone to binge drinking.

Government guidelines recommend a woman drink a maximum of 21 alcohol units a week. But Church appears to consume at least that in one night alone.

A spokesman for Alcohol Concern said: "We do not comment on individual cases but drinking 10 double vodkas is a large amount. If people are regularly drinking that amount of alcohol they increase their risk of harming their health.

"Drinking to get drunk is binge-drinking. Over 10 units and the chances are you are going to be intoxicated. Women drinking this much are putting themselves at risk. Beside the short-term risk of accidents or becoming involved in violent incidents, there are long-term risks such as liver cirrhosis."

Church has just returned from a three-day trip to see Henson, 23, who was not selected for the first Test against the All Blacks on Saturday, but who may have made Lions coach Clive Woodward regret his decision with his two tries in the 26-16 victory over Southland yesterday.

He recently spoke of his relationship with the singer, and hit back at criticis who worried that going out with her would affect his playing career.

"I'm not a heavy drinker and half the time when I go out I don't even drink," he said in an interview last month.

The couple have headed Wales's celebrity A-list since getting together, although Church had some complaints about his trademark spiky hair.

"It's not so much hard as slimy. I wake up in the morning and my hair's so greasy because of all his wax that I have to wash it every day," she said.

The Telegraph, London
_________________________________________________________

I think she has toned it down since then - but I could have hung with her!

The Tower

08-12-2007, 08:44 PM

Ouch. I wish I could say for you that I hope your convictions are true.

Let me ask you this. When you die...lets say hypothetically you come face to face with the God of the universe that you say you dont believe in...what would you say to him if he brought up this comment?
I think Yahweh would have a lot less problem with Vanessa sticking with science than with you getting it on with guys...

If Yahweh does exist and I awoke in an afterlife situation, I'd probably flip off the ****er and ask him why he was such a **** for causing so much misery. What an asshole.

michelle2677

08-12-2007, 08:46 PM

LiamMcConville

08-12-2007, 08:47 PM

I think Yahweh would have a lot less problem with Vanessa sticking with science than with you getting it on with guys...

If Yahweh does exist and I awoke in an afterlife situation, I'd probably flip off the ****er and ask him why he was such a **** for causing so much misery. What an asshole.

Totally!

And let me just say that "Let The River Run" is a great song to read this thread to.

The Tower

08-12-2007, 08:49 PM

how colorful.
Meh.

ten characters

carrie721

08-12-2007, 08:52 PM

I think Yahweh would have a lot less problem with Vanessa sticking with science than with you getting it on with guys...

If Yahweh does exist and I awoke in an afterlife situation, I'd probably flip off the ****er and ask him why he was such a **** for causing so much misery. What an asshole.

And God came to him in the form of a burning bush and said to Brandon, you must take photos of your penis and email them to gay men, in order to test them. And so Brandon did what God had asked and God was pleased.

goldustsongbird

08-12-2007, 09:47 PM

mylittledemon

08-12-2007, 10:03 PM

And God came to him in the form of a burning bush and said to Brandon, you must take photos of your penis and email them to gay men, in order to test them. And so Brandon did what God had asked and God was pleased.

I actually took them for my girlfriend...Johnny Stew just happened to ask for them nicely so I obliged...I cant stress enough how many times I've mentioned in this thread that I am not perfect. I even apologized.

Keep crucifying me (no pun intended) if thats what allows you to continue to feel any of my beliefs irrational, wrong, or false.

And anyway...i thought you didnt believe in God. I never got a clear cut answer as to "why" some of you live in disbelief.

mylittledemon

08-12-2007, 10:05 PM

I think Yahweh would have a lot less problem with Vanessa sticking with science than with you getting it on with guys...

That was a personal low blow. As far as I'm concerned i didnt insult anyone on a personal level with this thread. F*ck you Tower. Literally.

carrie721

08-12-2007, 10:05 PM

I actually took them for my girlfriend...Johnny Stew just happened to ask for them nicely so I obliged...I cant stress enough how many times I've mentioned in this thread that I am not perfect. I even apologized.

Keep crucifying me (no pun intended) if thats what allows you to continue to feel any of my beliefs irrational, wrong, or false.

And anyway...i thought you didnt believe in God. I never got a clear cut answer as to "why" some of you live in disbelief.

i never said i didn't believe in god. i don't believe in god as you define him, and i definitely don't believe in the jesus christ dog and pony show. but i'm not a cut-and-dried atheist.

mylittledemon

08-12-2007, 10:12 PM

i never said i didn't believe in god. i don't believe in god as you define him, and i definitely don't believe in the jesus christ dog and pony show. but i'm not a cut-and-dried atheist.

Seems to me your belief is as vague as your answers.

I'm gonna quote CS Lewis (a much much wiser and more appreciated man than this old demon)...

"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronising nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.."

carrie721

08-12-2007, 10:22 PM

Seems to me your belief is as vague as your answers.

how have my answers been vague? i have been clear and direct with my responses to you. i have nothing to hide.

you seem to think my last post was vague. let me clarify since you didn't get it the first time around.

i don't believe in god as you define him.

what was unclear about this? christianity (and by extension, you) define god as a sentient entity, and i do not.

i don't believe in the JC dog-and-pony show.

again, i ask: what didn't you understand? billions of people don't believe in christ.

i'm not a cut-and-dried atheist.

you said i didn't believe in god. i corrected you.

did you get that?

I'm gonna quote CS Lewis (a much much wiser and more appreciated man than this old demon)...

"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronising nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.."

wow, i didn't realize that cs lewis was nuts.

mylittledemon

08-12-2007, 10:24 PM

So you dont even believe Christ existed?

And, yer not an atheist if you believe in any deity.

how have my answers been vague? i have been clear and direct with my responses to you. i have nothing to hide.

you seem to think my last post was vague. let me clarify since you didn't get it the first time around.

i don't believe in god as you define him.

what was unclear about this? christianity (and by extension, you) define god as a sentient entity, and i do not.

i don't believe in the JC dog-and-pony show.

again, i ask: what didn't you understand? billions of people don't believe in christ.

i'm not a cut-and-dried atheist.

you said i didn't believe in god. i corrected you.

did you get that?

wow, i didn't realize that cs lewis was nuts.

carrie721

08-12-2007, 10:26 PM

So you dont even believe Christ existed?

i'm sure some dude walked out of the desert and claimed to be the son of god.

LiamMcConville

08-12-2007, 10:27 PM

So you dont even believe Christ existed?

And, yer not an atheist if you believe in any deity.

DOUBLE POST

LiamMcConville

08-12-2007, 10:28 PM

So you dont even believe Christ existed?

And, yer not an atheist if you believe in any deity.

ARE YOU A COMPLETE ****ING IDIOT? We can believe Jesus existed without believing he was the son of god. Can you wrap your naive Christian mind around that?

mylittledemon

08-12-2007, 10:29 PM

wow, i didn't realize that cs lewis was nuts.

Actually he was quite sharp. He made the perfect argument. So if you can at least acknowledge Christ's existence, then...

A-Jesus was telling falsehoods and knew it, and so he was a liar.
OR
B-Jesus was telling falsehoods, but believed he was telling the truth, and so he was insane.
OR
C-Jesus was telling the truth, and so he was divine.

carrie721

08-12-2007, 10:29 PM

So you dont even believe Christ existed?

And, yer not an atheist if you believe in any deity.

ah, you edited. i said that i'm not an atheist. so i don't know what you're talking about. :shrug:

Miss Vicky

08-12-2007, 10:31 PM

I'll go with option B.

mylittledemon

08-12-2007, 10:31 PM

ARE YOU A COMPLETE ****ING IDIOT? We can believe Jesus existed without believing he was the son of god. Can you wrap your naive Christian mind around that?

The personal attacks continue. I suggest you edit your post, sir.

carrie721

08-12-2007, 10:31 PM

Actually he was quite sharp. He made the perfect argument. So if you can at least acknowledge Christ's existence, then...

A-Jesus was telling falsehoods and knew it, and so he was a liar.
OR
B-Jesus was telling falsehoods, but believed he was telling the truth, and so he was insane.
OR
C-Jesus was telling the truth, and so he was divine.

so you couldn't say that jesus isn't god but made some pretty good points about peace and loving your fellow man?

mylittledemon

08-12-2007, 10:33 PM

ah, you edited. i said that i'm not an atheist. so i don't know what you're talking about. :shrug:

Sorry, I mis read..thought you sad you were a 'Cut and dried atheist'...sorry I missed that.

LiamMcConville

08-12-2007, 10:33 PM

The personal attacks continue. I suggest you edit your post, sir.

I will most certainly not edit my post.

I'm hoping you can read, and if so, you will see that I'm asking you, are you a complete ****ing idiot?

And from your previous posts, I'd have to say that "naive Christian" is almost perfectly fitting of you.

So...I don't see at all how that would be construed as a personal attack. :shrug:

mylittledemon

08-12-2007, 10:34 PM

so you couldn't say that jesus isn't god but made some pretty good points about peace and loving your fellow man?

I think that falls under option "B"

carrie721

08-12-2007, 10:37 PM

I think that falls under option "B"

okay, i'll go with that then :laugh:

mylittledemon

08-12-2007, 10:39 PM

I will most certainly not edit my post.

I'm hoping you can read, and if so, you will see that I'm asking you, are you a complete ****ing idiot?

And from your previous posts, I'd have to say that "naive Christian" is almost perfectly fitting of you.

So...I don't see at all how that would be construed as a personal attack. :shrug:

Your question had no validity. I never said you could believe in Jesus, and not believe he wasnt the son of God. Thats been made evident in the following posts from myself and the other civil Ledgies.

We all TRY to abide by some rules here on the Ledge. "Naive Christian" (if that is what I'm being labeled) is better than some of the less than kind things you possibly deserve to be called right now.

Miss Vicky

08-12-2007, 10:39 PM

okay, i'll go with that then :laugh:

For anybody keeping a tally, that's two votes for option B.

carrie721

08-12-2007, 10:40 PM

For anybody keeping a tally, that's two votes for option B.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

mylittledemon

08-12-2007, 10:40 PM

okay, i'll go with that then :laugh:

Alright. NOW we're getting somewhere. I'm just trying to understand why you believe that. Where it came from. That sort of thing.

mylittledemon

08-12-2007, 10:47 PM

I will most certainly not edit my post.

I'm hoping you can read, and if so, you will see that I'm asking you, are you a complete ****ing idiot?

And from your previous posts, I'd have to say that "naive Christian" is almost perfectly fitting of you.

So...I don't see at all how that would be construed as a personal attack. :shrug:

Once again, I kindly suggest that you should delete, or alter, some of the things you've called me. It was without a doubt personal slander, and some of the mods wont hesitate to boot you.

Get back to me when you wanna join the discussion we've been having, amicably, for most of the evening.

LiamMcConville

08-12-2007, 10:48 PM

Your question had no validity. I never said you could believe in Jesus, and not believe he wasnt the son of God. Thats been made evident in the following posts from myself and the other civil Ledgies.

We all TRY to abide by some rules here on the Ledge. "Naive Christian" (if that is what I'm being labeled) is better than some of the less than kind things you possibly deserve to be called right now.

No, you didn't. But by all means, you're trying to make us pick one of your "options." So once again, you're trying to group us instead of just accepting that we each have different beliefs. I think by trying to stereotype us who don't believe in Christianity, would most certainly make you a Naive Christian. And feel free to call me whatever you feel, because nothing is worse than being a Naive Christian to me.

mylittledemon

08-12-2007, 10:54 PM

No, you didn't. But by all means, you're trying to make us pick one of your "options." So once again, you're trying to group us instead of just accepting that we each have different beliefs. I think by trying to stereotype us who don't believe in Christianity, would most certainly make you a Naive Christian. And feel free to call me whatever you feel, because nothing is worse than being a Naive Christian to me.

You are WAY off here. You came in three quarters of the way thru and your original question didnt apply. the topic has progressed to the discussion of the existence of Christ...thats the flow here. I'm not grouping ANYONE...I'm merely commenting on CS Lewis' comments on Christ. It might shock you to know that I'm not gonna wake up tomorrow, and be "mad" at all the Ledgies who dont believe what I do.

Naive Christian. Again, personal. I'll see you on the booted list shortly, champ.

If someone called me a "wise fool" I think that'd be worse than being this "naive Christian." Or a "failure". Ouch.

mikeschmike

08-12-2007, 10:56 PM

The Way I See It
By M. Schmike

What I have to say has already been stated above and in many different ways. I do have this to add, however:

Until it was proven otherwise, the Earth was ruled by a group of robed Greek gods on the top of a mountain. Screw up, and you'd get a lightning bolt in your ass. Bad people were taken by chariot to the Underworld, to wait for the return of Persephone and her fruit gobbling ways.

Until it was proven otherwise, the Earth was the center of the universe. Everything revolved around it, and any naysayers were immediately damned.

Until it was proven otherwise, the aforementioned center of the universe was flat. If you went too far, you'd simply fall off. Once again, if one thought otherwise...they were labeled insane, or just killed.

So answer this for me. If someone were to go around in today's world proclaiming that everything I stated above was the 100% truth, they would be considered nuts. Yet everyone is so quick to decide that their own belief is the absolute truth, and no one is ever going to change that. Contradiction you say? I say you're right.

These theories were widely accepted because they brought a sense of comfort and purpose. People could devote their lives to god because they knew that they were doing the right thing for themselves. Their life had a direction. Does that mean that people that are unaccepting of god have no purpose? Absolutely not. People believe what they want, and they take great comfort in knowing that their vision of a higher power (or nothing at all) is awaiting them at the end of their life. It could be god, buddha, isis, zeus, or maybe even Bunsen and Beaker.

In the timeless words of Janet Jackson: "Who's right, who's wrong?"

Moony

08-12-2007, 10:57 PM

Not just because that's what you think...but baseless in literal terms. I dont know where folks get that "there is no God" belief. All the great religions of the world revolve around the deity. Is it because you want to believe that the rest of the world is wrong? Or you just want to believe that what you do here has no meaning whatsoever? The proof of God is all around you. In conception...in nature...in love. At the risk of sounding New Age, I dont know how you cant look at the beauty that is in the world and feel God. That was very "Jedi" but I cant think of a more simple way to put it.

This is the funniest **** I have ever heard.

carrie721

08-12-2007, 10:59 PM

The Way I See It
By M. Schmike

i cannot wait to "get married" in chicago. like, seriously. "carrie schmike" ... it has a nice ring to it :D

seriously. a brilliant post. :xoxo:

Sarah

08-12-2007, 11:01 PM

i don't really have a problem with people who want to believe in god or jesus or whatever. my problem lies with people who take the bible so literally. the book is totally bananas in an almost unintelligible way. the history of the whole thing and the fact that people restrict themselves to it is actually quite scary.

mylittledemon

08-12-2007, 11:02 PM

People believe what they want, and they take great comfort in knowing that their vision of a higher power (or nothing at all) is awaiting them at the end of their life. It could be god, buddha, isis, zeus, or maybe even Bunsen and Beaker. "

Holy cow. If the Muppets are waiting for me at the pearly gates, i might just crap a gold brick.

LiamMcConville

08-12-2007, 11:04 PM

You are WAY off here. You came in three quarters of the way thru and your original question didnt apply. the topic has progressed to the discussion of the existence of Christ...thats the flow here. I'm not grouping ANYONE...I'm merely commenting on CS Lewis' comments on Christ. It might shock you to know that I'm not gonna wake up tomorrow, and be "mad" at all the Ledgies who dont believe what I do.

Naive Christian. Again, personal. I'll see you on the booted list shortly, champ.

If someone called me a "wise fool" I think that'd be worse than being this "naive Christian." Or a "failure". Ouch.

I did post three quarters of the way in, and trust me, I've read every post in this thread. My first comment was on your response to Carrie, asking if she doesn't believe in Christ because she thinks CW Louis is nuts. I'm sure you won't be angry, but I'm sure you'll think less of us.

Yeah, I'm sure you will. And if you do, big deal, because I know I got banned for something I believe strongly about.

Well, thats a naive Christian for you. And I'd never call you a wise fool.

mylittledemon

08-12-2007, 11:19 PM

I did post three quarters of the way in, and trust me, I've read every post in this thread. My first comment was on your response to Carrie, asking if she doesn't believe in Christ because she thinks CW Louis is nuts. I'm sure you won't be angry, but I'm sure you'll think less of us.

Yeah, I'm sure you will. And if you do, big deal, because I know I got banned for something I believe strongly about.

Well, thats a naive Christian for you. And I'd never call you a wise fool.

The question asking her if she didnt believe in Christ was in reference to her saying "I dont believe in the JC and Dog Pony show" which made me think she didnt believe Christ existed at all...had nothing to do with the CS lewis thing.

I dont know why I'm being made out to be the villain. You're saying I would think less of you all. If you knew me at all, you'd know thats furthest from the truth.

And...No, you would be banned for being a personal slanderer. Has nothing to do with your personal belief. I never said anything about you personally. Actually now because you choose to stay bent on it, I hope you're booted with the knowledge that you simply couldnt follow the FAQ rules.

LiamMcConville

08-12-2007, 11:28 PM

The question asking her if she didnt believe in Christ was in reference to her saying "I dont believe in the JC and Dog Pony show" which made me think she didnt believe Christ existed at all...had nothing to do with the CS lewis thing.

I dont know why I'm being made out to be the villain. You're saying I would think less of you all. If you knew me at all, you'd know thats furthest from the truth.

And...No, you would be banned for being a personal slanderer. Has nothing to do with your personal belief. I never said anything about you personally. Actually now because you choose to stay bent on it, I hope you're booted with the knowledge that you simply couldnt follow the FAQ rules.

I understand that, and the way you responded made me think that either one can believe Jesus is God's son, or just not believe in him at all, which warranted my first post.

I'm not making you out to be the villain at all. Christian's just usually have a way of judging everyone who doesn't follow their beliefs strictly.

I'd only hope I wouldn't be banned for saying you're a naive Christian, when that's not nearly as bad as other things said about you in this thread. At least what I said is shown to be true by your posts. So, I should be banned for saying...****ing?

mylittledemon

08-12-2007, 11:34 PM

I understand that, and the way you responded made me think that either one can believe Jesus is God's son, or just not believe in him at all, which warranted my first post.

I'm not making you out to be the villain at all. Christian's just usually have a way of judging everyone who doesn't follow their beliefs strictly.

I'd only hope I wouldn't be banned for saying you're a naive Christian, when that's not nearly as bad as other things said about you in this thread. At least what I said is shown to be true by your posts. So, I should be banned for saying...****ing?

I havent judged ANYONE here during the course of the evening. I havent told one person...Youre going to hell....or, Youre wrong! ....or anything remotely of the sort. I dont even presume to think that about anyone. I've merely sparked topics that I believe to be true, in order to get others to respond in kind. Carrie has yet to tell me WHY she believes what she does. That was the goal. To hear why.

I'd say naive Christian was a personal attack, but i was referring more to the "****ing idiot" in reference to your first post about what you thought was me saying you had to believe Jesus was/is Christ. You have clearly said above you were mistaken there. So what you called me is unwarranted.

carrie721

08-12-2007, 11:40 PM

Carrie has yet to tell me WHY she believes what she does. That was the goal. To hear why.

i don't feel the need to explain why i hold my beliefs. i've stated them, i've clarified them, but i don't care to justify them. why do you need to know why?

LiamMcConville

08-12-2007, 11:42 PM

I havent judged ANYONE here during the course of the evening. I havent told one person...Youre going to hell....or, Youre wrong! ....or anything remotely of the sort. I dont even presume to think that about anyone. I've merely sparked topics that I believe to be true, in order to get others to respond in kind. Carrie has yet to tell me WHY she believes what she does. That was the goal. To hear why.

I'd say naive Christian was a personal attack, but i was referring more to the "****ing idiot" in reference to your first post about what you thought was me saying you had to believe Jesus was/is Christ. You have clearly said above you were mistaken there. So what you called me is unwarranted.

I disagree. I feel by constantly telling us that we're baseless for not believing what you believe is absolutely judging us. Carrie has explained to you several times why she believes what she does, or are you looking for some deep dark reason, like she was molested and now cannot possibly believe there is a god? Is that the kind of explanation you're looking for?

Oh, I see. I'm sorry for asking you if you're a complete ****ing idiot. I was mistaken, but the specific post I commented on is only one of the many posts you've made that would classify you as a naive Christian. But to be honest, I think I find all Christians to be naive. I guess that's what comes with being an opinionated agnostic.

mylittledemon

08-12-2007, 11:43 PM

i don't feel the need to explain why i hold my beliefs. i've stated them, i've clarified them, but i don't care to justify them. why do you need to know why?

Well...the whole afternoon we've spent arguing, quipping...and i got a lot of answers just not a lot of explanation. I thought thats where the thread would naturally progress. Liam seems to think as this thread goes on I continue to think "less" of all of you, and thats simply not true. That is not my motive, and never has been.

mylittledemon

08-12-2007, 11:49 PM

I disagree. I feel by constantly telling us that we're baseless for not believing what you believe is absolutely judging us. Carrie has explained to you several times why she believes what she does, or are you looking for some deep dark reason, like she was molested and now cannot possibly believe there is a god? Is that the kind of explanation you're looking for?

Oh, I see. I'm sorry for asking you if you're a complete ****ing idiot. I was mistaken, but the specific post I commented on is only one of the many posts you've made that would classify you as a naive Christian. But to be honest, I think I find all Christians to be naive. I guess that's what comes with being an opinionated agnostic.

The "baseless" comment was directed at one person's comment, and you are taking it slightly out of context (as self proclaimed opinionated agnostics are wont to do). The baseless comment I made was never countered with any sort of validity other than just "personal opinion." Carrie has now made that plain, and thats perfectly acceptable.

I have apoligzed for stepping on toes more than once in this thread (which adults do), when I did not intend to.

If I am a naive Christian then you could possibly be labeled, in my eyes, as a naive agnostic, no? I've backed my own beliefs fairly well I believe, based on the questions that were hurled back my way. I cant say the same for you.

carrie721

08-12-2007, 11:52 PM

Well...the whole afternoon we've spent arguing, quipping...and i got a lot of answers just not a lot of explanation. I thought thats where the thread would naturally progress. Liam seems to think as this thread goes on I continue to think "less" of all of you, and thats simply not true. That is not my motive, and never has been.

my life experiences have shaped my beliefs, and i'm sure yours have too. what else is there to say?

LiamMcConville

08-12-2007, 11:54 PM

The "baseless" comment was directed at one person's comment, and you are taking it slightly out of context (as self proclaimed opinionated agnostics are wont to do). The baseless comment I made was never countered with any sort of validity other than just "personal opinion." Carrie has now made that plain, and thats perfectly acceptable.

I have apologized for stepping on toes more than once in this thread (which adults do), when I did not intend to.

If I am a naive Christian then you could possibly be labeled, in my eyes, as a naive agnostic, no? I've backed my own beliefs fairly well I believe, based on the questions that were hurled back my way. I cant say the same for you.

I don't think I've taken it out of context, you used it towards some one's personal opinion that happens to be very similar to mine. I'm glad you are now content with Carrie's answer.

I'll apologize when I see fit, so far, nothing I've said deserves an apology.

I don't think an Agnostic can be labeled naive, because agnostics believe their is no way to possibly know if their is a God. Which is a much more accepting view of religion than the Christian.

I haven't backed my beliefs? If you have ANY questions for me, please feel absolutely free to ask. I'd be happy to oblige.

mylittledemon

08-13-2007, 12:10 AM

I don't think I've taken it out of context, you used it towards some one's personal opinion that happens to be very similar to mine. I'm glad you are now content with Carrie's answer.

I'll apologize when I see fit, so far, nothing I've said deserves an apology.

I don't think an Agnostic can be labeled naive, because agnostics believe their is no way to possibly know if their is a God. Which is a much more accepting view of religion than the Christian.

I haven't backed my beliefs? If you have ANY questions for me, please feel absolutely free to ask. I'd be happy to oblige.

You DID take it out of context. The baseless comment was directed towards Carrie alone. So dont use that as an "us" offensive. You've evidently taken it as a personal attack against you, which is probably why you've said the ugly things you've said to me in the past two hours.

You called me a ****ing idiot when it was you who misunderstood...you dont owe me an apology? Indeed.

How is believing that there is no possible way to know there is a God any more acceptible or "sensible" than the Christian view? Ultimately, as was pointed out by another Ledgie...neither one has more facts to support one over the other. I could go to say the Bible, and the Koran, and other holy books are "my" proof of a deity...but you would just go to say you believe those books to be falsities.

This conversation is gonna go round in circles with you, since you seem content to just merely point out proposed faults. Once again, I never said anyone was "wrong" in their beliefs. This whole night has been a line of valid questioning that no one had to participate in if they didnt want to.

mylittledemon

08-13-2007, 12:17 AM

my life experiences have shaped my beliefs, and i'm sure yours have too. what else is there to say?

that a good point. I'm glad you brought that up. Did your life experiences lead you to no longer believe in God when you previously did? You dont have to answer that. But i usually find that is the case.

I personally went to church un-regularly, when I was a kid. I stopped as a teenager because I was betrayed by those in positions of ministry. It caused the divorce of my parents, and other things that made me to be bitter towards Christianity for a few years. But I later found that my faith in God wasnt what should have been shaken, but in men who shouldnt have been put on the pedestal of my heart. If that makes any sense to you.

But if you truly believe in your heart that you were taught lies, that the Gospels (or any other faith that might suit you) then I suppose nothing else can be said.

mylittledemon

08-13-2007, 12:22 AM

Hmm. Hoping Liam's banned after that tame exchange hardly demonstrates Christian forgiveness on your part.

i have apologized NUMEROUS times tonight during the course of this post to those that I unintenionally offended. I'm not pissed off at Liam, but he neither apologized for his remarks and continued to make them...and I wont be sorry to see him banned if that is his fate. Doesnt mean I'm not forgiving. I dont see anyone coming to his rescue very quickly...its blatantly obvious he broke the FAQ when I gave him more than once chance to retract what he said.

carrie721

08-13-2007, 12:30 AM

that a good point. I'm glad you brought that up. Did your life experiences lead you to no longer believe in God when you previously did? You dont have to answer that. But i usually find that is the case.

i'm not an atheist, yo! i didn't abandon a belief in god. i didn't have a trauma that shook my beliefs, which is what i think you're getting at. that just wasn't the case.

I personally went to church un-regularly, when I was a kid. I stopped as a teenager because I was betrayed by those in positions of ministry. It caused the divorce of my parents, and other things that made me to be bitter towards Christianity for a few years. But I later found that my faith in God wasnt what should have been shaken, but in men who shouldnt have been put on the pedestal of my heart. If that makes any sense to you.

But if you truly believe in your heart that you were taught lies, that the Gospels (or any other faith that might suit you) then I suppose nothing else can be said.

i don't think i was taught lies ... not in a malicious way anyway. i just view christianity as mythology, next to greek & roman mythology and all other religions.

LiamMcConville

08-13-2007, 12:32 AM

i have apologized NUMEROUS times tonight during the course of this post to those that I unintenionally offended. I'm not pissed off at Liam, but he neither apologized for his remarks and continued to make them...and I wont be sorry to see him banned if that is his fate. Doesnt mean I'm not forgiving. I dont see anyone coming to his rescue very quickly...its blatantly obvious he broke the FAQ when I gave him more than once chance to retract what he said.

Alright, I'm sorry I called you a ****ing idiot. But I still absolutely think you're a naive Christian.

I'm amazed that people within the church ****ed you over, and you still have this incredible faith.

The Tower

08-13-2007, 01:46 AM

I havent judged ANYONE here during the course of the evening. I havent told one person...Youre going to hell....or, Youre wrong! ....or anything remotely of the sort. I dont even presume to think that about anyone.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....

That was a personal low blow. As far as I'm concerned i didnt insult anyone on a personal level with this thread. F*ck you Tower. Literally.

If you think that me stating that you ****ed around with men after you already told half the world is somehow an "insult on a personal level" you are even more ****ed up than I originally thought.

If two guys want to get it on, I am all for it and have no problems whatsoever with it. If you've got internalized homophobic guilt- then deal with it- that ain't my bag.

The personal attacks continue. I suggest you edit your post, sir.
Take yer own advice.

waThe Way I See It
By M. Schmike
If this were a divergent multiverse, you and I would be married and happily conjugating in some remote cabin on Bainbridge Island.

i cannot wait to "get married" in chicago. like, seriously. "carrie schmike" ... it has a nice ring to it :D
I was going to say "Step off, dyke" - but then I remembered that (ironically) no one around here has a sense off humor.... :shrug: :laugh:

carrie721

08-13-2007, 01:49 AM

I was going to say "Step off, dyke" - but then I remembered that (ironically) no one around here has a sense off humor.... :shrug: :laugh:

such language! :D

The Tower

08-13-2007, 01:51 AM

such language! :D
Well, jeez... ya know. ;)

Some people can be such anuses.

carrie721

08-13-2007, 01:52 AM

Well, jeez... ya know. ;)

Some people can be such anuses.

can you translate that into dyke?

The Tower

08-13-2007, 01:57 AM

can you translate that into dyke?
Sure....

"Jeezus... some people think they can totallly make a move on my exes ex, when I was already planning on trying to get her back- even after we had already talked about it. On second thought, I've never dated my exes exes current girlfriend and she looks freeking hot."

carrie721

08-13-2007, 02:01 AM

Sure....

"Jeezus... some people think they can totallly make a move on my exes ex, when I was already planning on trying to get her back- even after we had already talked about it. On second thought, I've never dated my exes exes current girlfriend and she looks freeking hot."

gotcha. :laugh:

bitch. :D

danax6

08-13-2007, 05:11 AM

Lux would have raped this thread better than I ever could. So I'll just recommend The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins on her behalf.
Yes. If it wasn't for these freakin' time zone differences I would have brought this up last night already. I have to thank Lux for pointing me in the direction of this book. T'was great.

Oh, and I vote option B.

mylittledemon

08-13-2007, 07:24 AM

If you think that me stating that you ****ed around with men after you already told half the world is somehow an "insult on a personal level" you are even more ****ed up than I originally thought.

If two guys want to get it on, I am all for it and have no problems whatsoever with it. If you've got internalized homophobic guilt- then deal with it- that ain't my bag.

That happened when I was in college. That 9 years ago for Goddsake. For you to bring it up in the manner you did, say it the way you did, WAS an insult. Don't try to say otherwise, and then say you're "ok with it" to make yourself out to not look like the bad guy. Again, I cant say HOW many friggin times I've said thruout this thread that I am not perfect...nor do I pretend to be.

strandinthewind

08-13-2007, 08:13 AM

. . . So, I should be banned for saying...****ing?

Under the current no tolerance rule - yes, you should. See FAQ, which state "Since people of all ages post on the Ledge, we would remind you to avoid sexually explicit posts and the use of profanity."

Most people get around this rule by typing some variation of the profanity, in this case "fukcing" or "fu**ing."

strandinthewind

08-13-2007, 08:16 AM

i don't feel the need to explain why i hold my beliefs. i've stated them, i've clarified them, but i don't care to justify them. why do you need to know why?

But, in the course of this conversation, he was not wholly out of line for asking; the question was relevant :shrug:

strandinthewind

08-13-2007, 08:21 AM

I do not think Brandon ever hoped for Liam to be banned, though it may have been implied from his posts. Rather, I think he was warning Liam, who, according to the FAQ, was out of line with his comments.

In the end though, I think it is appalling and hypocritical for people to assume that Brandon is judging them based on his comments, especially when he has repeatedly clarified them. He was speaking from his faith and asking people about their faith. This is legitimate discourse in a thread started about that topic. Yet, like when race is entered into a conversation, when people speak of their belief in God, some people just cannot have a civil discussion and consider anyone who believes in God or some higher form to be a judgmental idiot. To me, that is just as bad as the judmental dicta that comes out of Pat Robertson's mouth. Some people just hate other people being happy in their religion to the point where they feel the need to knock them for believing differently than they do. Such is life.

strandinthewind

08-13-2007, 08:23 AM

. . . The Flying Spaghetti Monster, Xenu, et al demonstrate otherwise . . . .

In all fairness, Brandon clearly referred to Catholicism, Christianity, Hinduism, Wiccan, Judism, etc. To lump Scientology in that to make your point, was unfair and non-responsive in any relevant way. Do you really think Scientology is on the same level as the categories I mentioned?

danax6

08-13-2007, 08:38 AM

In all fairness, Brandon clearly referred to Catholicism, Christianity, Hinduism, Wiccan, Judism, etc. To lump Scientology in that to make your point, was unfair and non-responsive in any relevant way. Do you really think Scientology is on the same level as the categories I mentioned?It's just another belief, isn't it? :shrug:

strandinthewind

08-13-2007, 08:46 AM

It's just another belief, isn't it? :shrug:

Yes, it is. But, there are many lesser denominations that border on illegitimacy. In fact, I would not place Scientology in the genre of religion; remember Scientology was at first secular. But, that is just me. But, my point was that to bring up one or two comaratively very small quasi-religions to negate his rather valid point was a non-sequitor. Brandon was correct about pretty much all religions supporting his point. In fact, even Scientology supports it.

Again, people just hate that other people have religion. And, on some level, I do not balme them because organized religion has oppressed people or made them feel oppressed for centuries.

Interestingly, I would like to know how many people here loathe that religion exists at all? I am not talking about money making organized religion. I am talking about the personal belief in a higher power, etc. How many people automatically smirk and have the unsupressable urge to mock that by calling naive or the believer a "fu*king idiot" while ignoring the repeated clarification by the poster. How is being that judgmental any different than the than judgemental nature assigned, incorrectly IMO, to Brandon?

I think the world would be a better place if people just let other belive in what they want. Sadly, organized religion cannot tolerate this ideal. The men controlling them want, instead, to assert religion as a powerful mans to control society and, ergo, money. But, Brandon repeatedly said he was not soming from that angle, yet no one really believed him and instead some chose seemingly automatically to mock him.

Miss Vicky

08-13-2007, 09:11 AM

Again, people just hate that other people have religion. And, on some level, I do not balme them because organized religion has oppressed people or made them feel oppressed for centuries.

Are you implying that those who have spoken against Brandon's comments "hate that other people have religion"? Because that's the way this comes across. And that is a very unfair assumption. Speaking only for myself - though I'm quite sure this applies to just about everyone else as well - I have no problem with people of religious faith. If it brings them comfort to know that someone is watching over them, more power to them. My issue comes when said persons of faith make comments that belittle the faith (or non-faith) of others while claiming innocent intentions.

Oh, and I vote option B.

That's 3 for option B.*

*Jesus was a loon.

strandinthewind

08-13-2007, 09:16 AM

Are you implying that those who have spoken against Brandon's comments "hate that other people have religion"? Because that's the way this comes across. And that is a very unfair assumption. Speaking only for myself - though I'm quite sure this applies to just about everyone else as well - I have no problem with people of religious faith. If it brings them comfort to know that someone is watching over them, more power to them. My issue comes when said persons of faith make comments that belittle the faith (or non-faith) of others while claiming innocent intentions . . . .

No, I was not implying or saying that. I do think that some in this thread have exhibited that general behaviour though.

As for Brandon's innocent intentions, I think he was saying, and correctly so, that the world's religions provide no basis for not believing in a god of some sort. As I mentioned earlier, that is like asking a Wiccan if they worship Satan. They do not believe in Satan, so the question has no meaning. In the end, Brandon was ineloquent, but I do not think he was being mean. And, he has repeatedly said this when asked to clarify. Whether one believes him is their choice :shrug:

danax6

08-13-2007, 09:20 AM

Yes, it is. But, there are many lesser denominations that border on illegitimacy. In fact, I would not place Scientology in the genre of religion; remember Scientology was at first secular. But, that is just me. But, my point was that to bring up one or two comaratively very small quasi-religions to negate his rather valid point was a non-sequitor. Brandon was correct about pretty much all religions supporting his point. In fact, even Scientology supports it.

Again, people just hate that other people have religion. And, on some level, I do not balme them because organized religion has oppressed people or made them feel oppressed for centuries.

Interestingly, I would like to know how many people here loathe that religion exists at all? I am not talking about money making organized religion. I am talking about the personal belief in a higher power, etc. How many people automatically smirk and have the unsupressable urge to mock that by calling naive or the believer a "fu*king idiot" while ignoring the repeated clarification by the poster. How is being that judgmental any different than the than judgemental nature assigned, incorrectly IMO, to Brandon?

I think the world would be a better place if people just let other belive in what they want. Sadly, organized religion cannot tolerate this ideal. The men controlling them want, instead, to assert religion as a powerful mans to control society and, ergo, money. But, Brandon repeatedly said he was not soming from that angle, yet no one really believed him and instead some chose seemingly automatically to mock him.There's a difference between stating an opinion or passing judgment, and I think that's where the line becomes blurry for a lot of people. I certainly try to not pass judgment, but that doesn't mean that I don't have certain opinions about matters that aren't close to my own heart. I compare it to sports. I root for a certain team, and I can say all I want about people that support another team, possibly even the competition, but I'd never tell them they should root for my team because otherwise they'd be bad, weird or dumb people. Of course then there are the hooligans, like in religion there are fundementalists, and I don't think anybody is morally required to approach that particular matter with an open mind. But I'm getting off track here...

I am not saying that Brandon was passing judgement, but the fact remains that he failed to answer a lot of my questions all the while going on how I can't see that God is everywhere and asking how my life can possibly have any meaning because of that. I don't see that as being curious about why I believe what I believe and I suspect he really wasn't interested in that either. Whether that be me, Carrie, Sharon, or anyone else that posted in this thread.

Miss Vicky

08-13-2007, 09:25 AM

No, I was not implying or saying that. I do think that some in this thread have exhibited that general behaviour though.

Your words still imply that you think we hate people of religious faith.
If that's not your intention, why bring it up at all?

The Tower

08-13-2007, 09:59 AM

That happened when I was in college. That 9 years ago for Goddsake. For you to bring it up in the manner you did, say it the way you did, WAS an insult. Don't try to say otherwise, and then say you're "ok with it" to make yourself out to not look like the bad guy. Again, I cant say HOW many friggin times I've said thruout this thread that I am not perfect...nor do I pretend to be.
Oh, please. Again, no one (including myself) ever assumed you were perfect.

You posed the inane question which theists always throw out against those who don't participate in religion- "What if you're wrong and you wake up in the afterlife? What would you say?" To which my answer was, I would be pretty pissed off.

If you choose to take my comment about Yahweh as an insult to you, so be it. I didn't create Yahweh's judgement and I don't subscribe to it, so AGAIN- that's your cross to bear.

strandinthewind

08-13-2007, 10:06 AM

Your words still imply that you think we hate people of religious faith.
If that's not your intention, why bring it up at all?

Because I thought and still think it was a relevant point. Again, I never meant to imply that. I am sorry you took it that way. Hopefully, my clarification helped.

On edit - in my initial post I said (commentary supplied):

Again, people just hate that other people have religion. And, on some level, I do not balme them because organized religion has oppressed people or made them feel oppressed for centuries.

which you quoted.

But, I then clarified by asking, not stating -

Interestingly, I would like to know how many people here loathe that religion exists at all? I am not talking about money making organized religion. I am talking about the personal belief in a higher power, etc. How many people automatically smirk and have the unsupressable urge to mock that by calling naive or the believer a "fu*king idiot" while ignoring the repeated clarification by the poster. How is being that judgmental any different than the than judgemental nature assigned, incorrectly IMO, to Brandon?

I think that indicates that I was asking for comments and/or opinions into that thought process and whether it existed in this thread because the specific post I noted suggested that it did.

So, I do not think the implication was warranted. But and again, I did not mean what you say.

carrie721

08-13-2007, 12:50 PM

I think that indicates that I was asking for comments and/or opinions into that thought process and whether it existed in this thread because the specific post I noted suggested that it did.

well, first of all, personal belief in a higher power is not the same thing as organized religion, so i think it's unfair to say that people who take issue with organized religion do so only because of the followers' belief in a higher power. as i've repeatedly stated in this thread, i am not an atheist. i do not believe in a dude upstairs calling the shots, but i do believe in an inherent connectedness of all things, so it would be silly of me to knock theists (which i believe is the term tower meant to use, rather than deist, which actually refers to a believer of the religion "deism") for holding a related belief.

organized religion is a different issue. i think it can be a dangerous thing and is often used as a weapon. however, billions of people think that christianity, judaism, islam, etc., are the path to their personal truth, and i cannot fault anyone for that. i do not think anyone is an idiot for using religion as a guide. but people who use the teachings of any holy book to scare people into abatement, or justify the subordination of one group to another? idiots.

The Tower

08-13-2007, 01:01 PM

.... so it would be silly of me to knock theists (which i believe is the term tower meant to use, rather than deist, which actually refers to a believer of the religion "deism") for holding a related belief.
Fixed it- got my believers in god confused with my believers in natural power.

:o :cool:

carrie721

08-13-2007, 01:05 PM

Fixed it- got my believers in god confused with my believers in natural power.

:o :cool:

someone should really keep you in line. :cool:

Sarah

08-13-2007, 01:27 PM

well, first of all, personal belief in a higher power is not the same thing as organized religion, so i think it's unfair to say that people who take issue with organized religion do so only because of the followers' belief in a higher power. as i've repeatedly stated in this thread, i am not an atheist. i do not believe in a dude upstairs calling the shots, but i do believe in an inherent connectedness of all things, so it would be silly of me to knock theists (which i believe is the term tower meant to use, rather than deist, which actually refers to a believer of the religion "deism") for holding a related belief.

organized religion is a different issue. i think it can be a dangerous thing and is often used as a weapon. however, billions of people think that christianity, judaism, islam, etc., are the path to their personal truth, and i cannot fault anyone for that. i do not think anyone is an idiot for using religion as a guide. but people who use the teachings of any holy book to scare people into abatement, or justify the subordination of one group to another? idiots.

do you want me to stand up while i clap, or can i just sit here and do it?

group-thinking scares the hell out of me, and that's why i can't be down with going to "church".

strandinthewind

08-13-2007, 01:33 PM

well, first of all, personal belief in a higher power is not the same thing as organized religion, so i think it's unfair to say that people who take issue with organized religion do so only because of the followers' belief in a higher power. as i've repeatedly stated in this thread, i am not an atheist. i do not believe in a dude upstairs calling the shots, but i do believe in an inherent connectedness of all things, so it would be silly of me to knock theists (which i believe is the term tower meant to use, rather than deist, which actually refers to a believer of the religion "deism") for holding a related belief.

organized religion is a different issue. i think it can be a dangerous thing and is often used as a weapon. however, billions of people think that christianity, judaism, islam, etc., are the path to their personal truth, and i cannot fault anyone for that. i do not think anyone is an idiot for using religion as a guide. but people who use the teachings of any holy book to scare people into abatement, or justify the subordination of one group to another? idiots.

I have repreatedly stated I am talking about belief in God and not about organized religion :shrug:

I, also and as mentioned earlier, agree with your post :cool:

strandinthewind

08-13-2007, 01:35 PM

Fixed it- got my believers in god confused with my believers in natural power.

:o :cool:

Your slipping :p :p

BTW - you do believe in :angel: don't you - "Oh . . . but there was a time when... . . . ."

carrie721

08-13-2007, 01:38 PM

I have repreatedly stated I am talking about belief in God and not about organized religion :shrug:

I, also and as mentioned earlier, agree with your post :cool:

oh, i misread what you said: Interestingly, I would like to know how many people here loathe that religion exists at all? I am not talking about money making organized religion. I am talking about the personal belief in a higher power, etc.

i thought you were saying that people loathe that religion exists because of the belief in a higher power.

carrie721

08-13-2007, 01:40 PM

do you want me to stand up while i clap, or can i just sit here and do it?

group-thinking scares the hell out of me, and that's why i can't be down with going to "church".

nah, you can sit. you'll need your strength to blindly do my bidding later on ;)

strandinthewind

08-13-2007, 01:45 PM

oh, i misread what you said: Interestingly, I would like to know how many people here loathe that religion exists at all? I am not talking about money making organized religion. I am talking about the personal belief in a higher power, etc.

i thought you were saying that people loathe that religion exists because of the belief in a higher power.

KEEP UP WHY DON'T YA :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

:p

carrie721

08-13-2007, 01:47 PM

KEEP UP WHY DON'T YA :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

:p

is it my fault you can't speak clearly? :D

Sarah

08-13-2007, 01:47 PM

nah, you can sit. you'll need your strength to blindly do my bidding later on ;)

ohhh. riiiiiiiiiight.

good time for the party hat icon. :woohoo:

carrie721

08-13-2007, 01:54 PM

ohhh. riiiiiiiiiight.

good time for the party hat icon. :woohoo:

don't forget your kool-aid!

Sarah

08-13-2007, 01:57 PM

don't forget your kool-aid!

ohh yeahhhhh.

strandinthewind

08-13-2007, 02:04 PM

is it my fault you can't speak clearly? :D

I usually have a mouth full of dirt unless Tower is near :D

carrie721

08-13-2007, 02:07 PM

I usually have a mouth full of dirt unless Tower is near :D

lucky for you when he's around you don't need to remove too much dirt to do the deed. :wavey:

The Tower

08-13-2007, 02:19 PM

Your slipping :p :p

BTW - you do believe in :angel: don't you - "Oh . . . but there was a time when... . . . ."
My romantic heart wants to believe in **** like that- which is why Stevie does so much for me. Alas, my brain tells me that the supernatural does not exist.

lucky for you when he's around you don't need to remove too much dirt to do the deed. :wavey:
Please don't confuse me with "I need tweezers to masturbate" Jason. I'm perfectly fine and could prove it by showing... you.. pictures......... :shocked: Sorry, I forgot that whole deal has been done and played out numerous times around here.

Nevermind!! ;)

skcin

08-13-2007, 03:04 PM

I could never say I was a "Christian" and say that I didnt believe the Bible was true....or that you dont need to believe in Jesus Christ. That is the fundamental belief! I personally dont think a "broad" view of Christianity is acceptible. I would much rather believe that my own personal narrow mindness (in regards to me, myself and I salvation) is right, rather than believing "everyone goes to heaven" theory.

I've apologized more than once in this thread for coming across as being on a "High horse"...and I've stated I am in no way perfect. I'm trying to understand why some of you believe WHAT you do...thats all. I really and truly not mean to be a prick. I'm sorry! I care about everyone here...hell, I've been on here for 6 years. I will say this has sparked some interesting discussion.

WHAT?! Seriously? So, anyone brought up as a Christian who questions parts of the bible isn't a Christian anymore? What if they believe that Christ is the son of God, but not some of the stories in the bible?

And despite the fact that you keep telling us you're NOT judging, you continue to do so. You could say "that's interesting to hear, but I personally don't believe that." But you don't. You keep implying that people are wrong, or stupid, or pitiful with statements like "do you even believe in God?!" and "that is the fundamental belief!" I agree with whoever said that it seems that you want to hear people's beliefs just to tell them that they're wrong, or their beliefs are less important than yours because they don't have enough backup, rather than to truly understand them.

Dunno what else there is to say that hasn't been said, other than I don't understand why he wanted to have his funeral at this church in the first place, unless it was his family calling the shots.

After being initially peeved about another bigoted Christian church, my only reaction is "to hell with them." Find another place for the funeral. And I most certainly wouldn't have taken their money...so kudos to the family for that.

Maybe he still liked his church. :shrug: I don't think being gay automatically makes you hate your church, does it? I mean, if it were me, then I don't think I would want any part of it, but to each their own...

HAHA...i think i get verbally pounded because I'm not a "lefty" or "liberal" (i hate those words but they just popped in) among other things...and I was the only one who was supportive of Bush in a few threads. That certainly didnt give me any bonus points.

Supporting Bush doesn't make you a liberal. It makes you a moron. :wavey:

sarcastic comment, not meant to be a personal attack

The rest of the world has nothing to do with my dying or not. Just because I think people cease to exist after death, that means I am all alone in this world?

And I believe that when people hang up that phone....well they cease to exist.

So you dont even believe Christ existed?

You can believe the man existed. Doesn't mean you have to believe he was the son of God.

Starling

08-13-2007, 03:18 PM

I am the one that said, "What kind of God acts in vengeance" and I must say I wasn't too happy with MyLittleDemon's statement of "Do you even believe in God?" As if I'm some dolt. Maybe my God isn't of your belief but it doesn't make my views any less significant. I'm of Tribal descent. Maybe...and I mean just maybe I have a more rounded view of different religious perspectives. I realize you've made your apology rounds and I'm fine with it. Just please do some self-analyzing, stop reacting in a judgmental tone, and realize you have come across as pompous and "holier than thou" with some of your views. I respect your strong faith but nothing aggravates me more than someone of said strong faith trying to insist that they're right and everyone else isn't...and then hides it with colorful and artsy language. I am what I am. You are what you are. Let whomever God is be the judge.

strandinthewind

08-13-2007, 03:19 PM

. . . pictures......... :shocked: Sorry, I forgot that whole deal has been done and played out numerous times around here . . . .

:angel: wyndchylde - when the rain wah CHAISE u clean - you'll know :angel:

Also - I clearly said that tweezers no longer sufficed now that I am taking Vitrex - if you'd come around more often you might know that first hand :mad:

carrie721

08-13-2007, 03:21 PM

:angel: wyndchylde - when the rain wah CHAISE u clean - you'll know :angel:

Also - I clearly said that tweezers no longer sufficed now that I am taking Vitrex - if you'd come around more often you might know that first hand :mad:

you still need a loupe to see it.

danax6

08-13-2007, 03:23 PM

Also - I clearly said that tweezers no longer sufficed now that I am taking Vitrex - if you'd come around more often you might know that first hand :mad:So to speak. :laugh:

skcin

08-13-2007, 03:24 PM

strandinthewind

08-13-2007, 03:32 PM

you still need a loupe to see it.

yea - but you she see me stich one and pearl two with it :angel:

JazmenFlowers

08-13-2007, 03:34 PM

And I believe that when people hang up that phone....well they cease to exist.
oh.my.god. I just died. died.

with respect to this thread, it's so far gone that I don't even think I have the energy. so, there. I have contributed absolutely nothing. ya dig?

Starling

08-13-2007, 03:35 PM

oh.my.god. I just died. died.

with respect to this thread, it's so far gone that I don't even think I have the energy. so, there. I have contributed absolutely nothing. ya dig?

Well done, JazmenFlowers, well done! :angel: :nod:

Starling

08-13-2007, 03:36 PM

Well stated. :nod:

Thank you! :nod:

danax6

08-13-2007, 03:41 PM

yea - but you she see me stich one and pearl two with it :angel:Are you drunk?

carrie721

08-13-2007, 03:53 PM

Are you drunk?

it's all that dirt and towie juice. it's not a pretty thing. :distress:

strandinthewind

08-13-2007, 04:00 PM

Are you drunk?

Sadly, no :distress:

I have had a chest cold for almost two weeks -- thus no booce for like two and a half weeks, which has been horrifying :mad:

Rickypt

08-13-2007, 04:03 PM

with respect to this thread, it's so far gone that I don't even think I have the energy. so, there. I have contributed absolutely nothing. ya dig?

You and me both. There's something I kind of wanted to respond to back on page 2 or 3 but I think everyone has moved on. I'm also laughing a little at how everyone's been forced to tell others to change their posts or apologize or spell **** incorrectly so they don't get banned.

strandinthewind

08-13-2007, 04:04 PM

You and me both. There's something I kind of wanted to respond to back on page 2 or 3 but I think everyone has moved on.

Oh go ahead - jump in feet first :cool:

danax6

08-13-2007, 04:11 PM

Sadly, no :distress:

I have had a chest cold for almost two weeks -- thus no booce for like two and a half weeks, which has been horrifying :mad:Ugh, me too. I think my cold has actually turned into walking pneumonia. I have a doctor's appointment tomorrow, so I guess I'll be on antibiotics this coming week. :rolleyes:

I went to a festival last Saturday, and it was my first day off since, ehm, March when I went to see Stevie, so I was all ready to booze it up, but my cold medicine interfered. I ended up having to smoke three joints to at least reach some state of inebriance. :shrug:

LiamMcConville

08-13-2007, 08:14 PM

Under the current no tolerance rule - yes, you should. See FAQ, which state "Since people of all ages post on the Ledge, we would remind you to avoid sexually explicit posts and the use of profanity."

Most people get around this rule by typing some variation of the profanity, in this case "fukcing" or "fu**ing."

I'm new, I've received a warning, I now understand the FAQ's.

And honestly, I'm probably the youngest person on the board. So...If its not offending me I doubt its offending anyone else. :wavey:

strandinthewind

08-13-2007, 09:41 PM

I think it is time to haul out Mahalia Jackson - she certainly felt the faith!

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I submit that even ole grumpy Towie might feel a little closer to God hearing His voice in this woman. One voice to reckon with for sure!

Please note she is about two feet from the mics - and it still is a force majure.

mylittledemon

08-13-2007, 10:27 PM

I am not saying that Brandon was passing judgement, but the fact remains that he failed to answer a lot of my questions all the while going on how I can't see that God is everywhere and asking how my life can possibly have any meaning because of that.

Ask away. I'll once again tell you what I believe, if thats what you would like to know.

mylittledemon

08-13-2007, 10:31 PM

As for Brandon's innocent intentions, I think he was saying, and correctly so, that the world's religions provide no basis for not believing in a god of some sort. As I mentioned earlier, that is like asking a Wiccan if they worship Satan. They do not believe in Satan, so the question has no meaning. In the end, Brandon was ineloquent, but I do not think he was being mean. And, he has repeatedly said this when asked to clarify. Whether one believes him is their choice :shrug:

I feel the same way. My reiteration of certain comments, and apologies for the way others were taken is evidence of that. I'm not here to piss someone off. If things that I said were taken out of context, or taken as offensive...then that's the readers perogative, because it was, and is not (ever) my intention. Believe me, no one could ever accuse me of being holier than thou. Cheap shots were taken at me, I feel, because I took a strong stand in my own beliefs. In turn that was countered with ridicule. I dont think I ridiculed anyone in what I said...if it was taken that way, so be it...but it was not intended, or implied.

The Tower

08-14-2007, 12:12 AM

I think it is time to haul out Mahalia Jackson - she certainly felt the faith!

I submit that even ole grumpy Towie might feel a little closer to God hearing His voice in this woman. One voice to reckon with for sure!
Yer a sod-off old ****, ya know-that!!

Meh.

People are people and they never change their spots.

I freeking love you, my Jason, because I know who you are- my darling.

I feel the same way. My reiteration of certain comments, and apologies for the way others were taken is evidence of that. I'm not here to piss someone off. If things that I said were taken out of context, or taken as offensive...then that's the readers perogative, because it was, and is not (ever) my intention. Believe me, no one could ever accuse me of being holier than thou. Cheap shots were taken at me, I feel, because I took a strong stand in my own beliefs. In turn that was countered with ridicule.
Who are you kidding????

I dont think I ridiculed anyone in what I said...if it was taken that way, so be it...but it was not intended, or implied.
Uh- yeah you did.

Nice try, though. I think this comment stands on its own... which was yer "**** you, literally". Which is seemingly scrubbedfrom this website.....

Bleh. Done.

gldstwmn

08-14-2007, 01:09 AM

I didn't see the need for an apology for expressing your views - this ended up the most interesting thread to hit **** shat in a while.

No kidding. We haven't had a fourteen page rager in a while. :lol:

strandinthewind

08-14-2007, 05:58 AM

Yer a sod-off old ****, ya know-that!!

Meh.

People are people and they never change their spots.

I freeking love you, my Jason, because I know who you are- my darling . . . .

I can see this may take more Mahalia!

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Witness for me Towie :wavey:

irishgrl

08-14-2007, 06:20 AM

Im still trying to wrap my head around the notion that Strandie takes Vitrex.

say it aint so, Jason!!!

irishgrl

08-14-2007, 06:22 AM

No kidding. We haven't had a fourteen page rager in a while. :lol:
especially one without me! ar ar!

strandinthewind

08-14-2007, 06:53 AM

Im still trying to wrap my head around the notion that Strandie takes Vitrex.

say it aint so, Jason!!!

Vitrex mainly is Tribulus Terrestris, a plant extract that stimulates the pituitary gland, freeing bound testosterone in the body.

irishgrl

08-14-2007, 07:22 AM

Vitrex mainly is Tribulus Terrestris, a plant extract that stimulates the pituitary gland, freeing bound testosterone in the body.
you had bound testosterone? tsk tsk :lol: so, now you're FREE!!! you've burned your jock strap so to speak! good for you Jason! how LIBERATED you must feel!

mylittledemon

08-14-2007, 07:44 AM

Who are you kidding????

Uh- yeah you did.

Nice try, though. I think this comment stands on its own... which was yer "**** you, literally". Which is seemingly scrubbed from this website.....

Bleh. Done.

I am not kidding anyone. I didnt ridicule anyone, if thats the way you took it I'm sorry...and I admit some of my choice of words were less than spectacular...it wasnt meant as ridicule. You, simply choose disregard any of my beliefs and thus, disregard me and my opinion. You'd hardly offered anything credible to this argument/discussion. And, proof of that is when you took a cheap shot at me. The "f*ck you, literally" was actually mostly tongue in cheek. I didnt delete it.

Rickypt

08-14-2007, 12:03 PM

Oh go ahead - jump in feet first :cool:

Well, I was just going to respond to the comment way back, something like "how can you look at the wonders of the world and not believe in God."

The closest I come to believing in a God is when I look at an orchid. I find them to be so exquisite that I think it had to be designed. But then I realize that my perception of its beauty comes from my physical reaction to it and that not everyone has the same reaction. At that point it doesn't seem like any kind of intelligent design.

I'm 100% agnostic. I think there is something bigger than this/us but there really isn't a shred of evidence to back that up.

strandinthewind

08-14-2007, 12:46 PM

Well, I was just going to respond to the comment way back, something like "how can you look at the wonders of the world and not believe in God."

The closest I come to believing in a God is when I look at an orchid. I find them to be so exquisite that I think it had to be designed. But then I realize that my perception of its beauty comes from my physical reaction to it and that not everyone has the same reaction. At that point it doesn't seem like any kind of intelligent design.

I'm 100% agnostic. I think there is something bigger than this/us but there really isn't a shred of evidence to back that up.

FENCE RIDER :mad:

Just joking!

I get what you are saying. I just find it better for me to try and quantify and qualify that something. But, to each their own.

Rickypt

08-14-2007, 12:57 PM

I get what you are saying. I just find it better for me to try and quantify and qualify that something. But, to each their own.

How do you go about trying to quantify/qualify? I spent a good 2 years pursuing spirituality, trying to find answers, studying "paranormal", etc. following my partner's death and I wound up finding so many contradictions, illogical arguments, missing parts, etc. that I just decided it's better not to dwell on it too much. I did go from being atheist to agnostic in the process, however.

markolas

08-14-2007, 03:57 PM

strandinthewind

08-14-2007, 04:06 PM

How do you go about trying to quantify/qualify? I spent a good 2 years pursuing spirituality, trying to find answers, studying "paranormal", etc. following my partner's death and I wound up finding so many contradictions, illogical arguments, missing parts, etc. that I just decided it's better not to dwell on it too much. I did go from being atheist to agnostic in the process, however.

I, too, felt as if my life had no answers, but not out of a tragedy such as your's, which must have devastated you. So, I searched for them. I studied most of the major organized Christian religions, Judaism, Hinduism, etc. After doing all that, I just sort of came to my own realization that most organized religion, which can do some outstandingly good things, was all about money, control and power. Most of those also had the missing parts, etc. you mentioned So, I kind of made up my own hybrid. It works for me though.

I must say though, that I love going to church. I like the pomp and circumstance. I also love the singing and the society obtained.

But, to each their own.

irishgrl

08-14-2007, 07:12 PM

I, too, felt as if my life had no answers, but not out of a tragedy such as your's, which must have devastated you. So, I searched for them. I studied most of the major organized Christian religions, Judaism, Hinduism, etc. After doing all that, I just sort of came to my own realization that most organized religion, which can do some outstandingly good things, was all about money, control and power. Most of those also had the missing parts, etc. you mentioned So, I kind of made up my own hybrid. It works for me though.

I must say though, that I love going to church. I like the pomp and circumstance. I also love the singing and the society obtained.

But, to each their own.
the key is "organized religion". its about POWER, first and foremost. power over the gullible, power over the guilty. originally, that power aligned itself with the political heads of state, and then eclipsed them during the Middle Ages. Now, organized religion has become a BUSINESS, same as the Mafia and the Hells Angels. (trite I know, but it works!)

Earth based, or aboriginal religions are NOT about power but about getting in touch with the Higher Power. In the West, we lost our way. Sad but true.

If we ever looked WITHIN, instead of WITHOUT, we'd probably find more answers....