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[irishgrl]

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Giuliani emerging as favorite of gays

By COLLEEN SLEVIN, Associated Press Writer 58 minutes ago

Rudy Giuliani emerged as a favorite among many members of the GOP's largest gay organization, who cited his record on social issues, taxes and defense.

However, delegates to the Log Cabin Republicans annual convention said Friday they also fear that the former New York mayor, in his bid to capture the Republican presidential nomination, might be waffling as he reaches out to the more conservative GOP voters who hold sway in the primaries.

"Mainstream Republican voters and moderate voters are going to vote for you. Don't tilt to the right," said Frank Ricchiazzi, who helped found the Log Cabin group 30 years ago.

Ricchiazzi, who wore an "I Love Rudy" button, cited Giuliani's remarks on abortion during the GOP presidential candidates' debate Thursday night.

With a record of supporting abortion rights, Giuliani said "it would be OK" if the Supreme Court upholds the 1973 Roe v. Wade ruling that legalized abortion. "It would be OK to repeal it. It would be OK also if a strict constructionist viewed it as precedent," he said.

Following the GOP's losses in the November elections, in both Congress and the statehouses, many gay Republicans said they believe the party should strive to select a candidate who doesn't focus on divisive social issues.

Former Republican Sen. Alan Simpson of Wyoming, the event's keynote speaker, agreed. He told the group of about 200 that he thinks the party is in a better place than it was after delving into issues like the Terri Schiavo case and gay marriage.

"We're shaking some of the goofies and zanies out of the trees," Simpson said to laughter.

"Who the hell's for abortion?" he added, explaining that it is a personal decision and should not be on the party platform.

Simpson repeatedly declined to comment on the individual GOP candidates. He urged the Log Cabin delegates to work for change within the party.

"Don't be impatient. Stay in the party. Don't leave because you can change it," Simpson said.

Asked about Tommy Thompson's remark Thursday that an employer should be allowed to fire a gay worker solely for being gay, Simpson said he didn't watch the debate. He called the response a "crazy statement to make in these times" and "insensitive."

Thompson apologized for the answer on Friday, saying he had made a mistake.

Log Cabin president Patrick Sammon said the group won't endorse a candidate before the primaries and doesn't expect anyone to run on a platform that includes gay rights. A unifying conservative agenda will support free trade, an aggressive war on terrorism, fiscal responsibility and limited government, he said.

That said, Sammon called Giuliani "a very strong leader with an inclusive record."

David Keeton, a small-business owner in Dallas, and his partner, Rob Schlein, said they supported Giuliani because of his record as New York mayor and his response to the Sept. 11 terror attacks.

"I'm an American first, then a Republican second, and gay falls in third or fourth," said Keeton, who wore a Ronald Reagan pin on his lapel.

Both said they recently met former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney at a fundraiser and had their picture taken with him. They were offended when Romney told the crowd that he opposed gay marriage and civil unions.

"We're part of the Republican Party, but he just alienated people who had paid $1,500 for a table," Keeton said.

Copyright © 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. The information contained in the AP News report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press.


so....is this true?

[carrie721]

GOP's largest gay organization

Log Cabin Republicans

gay Republicans

gag.

With a record of supporting abortion rights, Giuliani said "it would be OK" if the Supreme Court upholds the 1973 Roe v. Wade ruling that legalized abortion. "It would be OK to repeal it. It would be OK also if a strict constructionist viewed it as precedent," he said.

wtf? :shrug: :confused:

"I'm an American first, then a Republican second, and gay falls in third or fourth," said Keeton, who wore a Ronald Reagan pin on his lapel.

what the fukc ever. i am no rainbow-flag-waving dyke, but these days that whole party is predicated on undercutting our rights. it's not the party of personal responsibility anymore, it's the party of hatred and fear.

[markolas]

Guiliani is scum, and so are all the other Republican candidates. I don't understand gay Republicans in the same way I don't understand gay Christians; it just boggles my mind.

[michelle2677]

Guiliani is scum, and so are all the other Republican candidates. I don't understand gay Republicans in the same way I don't understand gay Christians; it just boggles my mind.

could you elaborate on that more, please :)

[carrie721]

could you elaborate on that more, please :)

i can't speak for markolas but i'll offer my opinion. it is a basic tenet of christianity that homosexuality is wrong. you can't pick and choose what doctrine you do and don't want to follow in any given religion - it's in the bible. so how can anyone reconcile being gay & christian? i certainly couldn't, so i'm no longer christian. it's the same thing with republicans - that party is about social conservatism, about the mingling of church & state, about doing harm to gay people. simple as that.

[markolas]

could you elaborate on that more, please :)

I'm not sure what more there is to say. A federal Constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage is part of the Republican party platform...their feelings about gay people couldn't get much clearer than that.

As for Christianity, almost no mainline denomination is actually pro-gay. The ones that are supposedly inclusive (like the Episcopalians) generally just talk out of both sides of their face. The Bible says a lot of horrifying things, so it isn't just about that. I might, in good conscience, be able to recommend one of the New Thought denominations (like Unity or Religious Science), but most mainliners don't even consider them Christian, so maybe that says a lot about my sensibilities.

[carrie721]

I'm not sure what more there is to say. A federal Constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage is part of the Republican party platform...their feelings about gay people couldn't get much clearer than that.

As for Christianity, almost no mainline denomination is actually pro-gay. The ones that are supposedly inclusive (like the Episcopalians) generally just talk out of both sides of their face. The Bible says a lot of horrifying things, so it isn't just about that. I might, in good conscience, be able to recommend one of the New Thought denominations (like Unity or Religious Science), but most mainliners don't even consider them Christian, so maybe that says a lot about my sensibilities.

i'm not disagreeing with your basic point - but i believe that the unitarian universalists are pro-gay. at least, they say they are. i know there are christians our there who are supportive of gay issues, but IMO any bible-based religion cannot be considered gay-friendly.

[markolas]

i'm not disagreeing with your basic point - but i believe that the unitarian universalists are pro-gay. at least, they say they are. i know there are christians our there who are supportive of gay issues, but IMO any bible-based religion cannot be considered gay-friendly.

The UUs are generally pro-gay, but I don't think they are considered Christian (either by themselves or by others) to any degree anymore. Also, more liberal Christians don't take the Bible to be an inerrant document the way the fundamentalists do. I mean, it's not too female-friendly either...you can kinda take what fits and leave the rest. If you're so inclined. Me, I just went with something else.

[carrie721]

The UUs are generally pro-gay, but I don't think they are considered Christian (either by themselves or by others) to any degree anymore. Also, more liberal Christians don't take the Bible to be an inerrant document the way the fundamentalists do. I mean, it's not too female-friendly either...you can kinda take what fits and leave the rest. If you're so inclined. Me, I just went with something else.

i guess i don't understand when people say that the homophobic and misogynistic aspects of the bible are outdated and can be dismissed - i mean, if it's in the holy book, and you don't believe it, can you really be a christian? that's where i get hung up.

[catinthedark]

As for Christianity, almost no mainline denomination is actually pro-gay.

the united church of canada is!! :wavey:

and we do fall under that big huge gaping umbrella of christianty, as opposed to that of judaism or islam!

[markolas]

i guess i don't understand when people say that the homophobic and misogynistic aspects of the bible are outdated and can be dismissed - i mean, if it's in the holy book, and you don't believe it, can you really be a christian? that's where i get hung up.

Some just don't believe it's inerrant. I think that idea is a pretty recent development in the history of Christianity (like, within the last 100-200 years). The Catholics, Anglicans, and Orthodox don't really subscribe to it; if you look at their arguments against gay relationships, they don't revolve around biblical passages as much as around the tradition of the church, which has historically been at least as important (if not more so) than what the Bible says.

[markolas]

the united church of canada is!! :wavey:

and we do fall under that big huge gaping umbrella of christianty, as opposed to that of judaism or islam!

Yeah, there's one or two, which is why I hesitated to say "none." But it really is just a drop in the bucket.

[irishgrl]

gag.



wtf? :shrug: :confused:



what the fukc ever. i am no rainbow-flag-waving dyke, but these days that whole party is predicated on undercutting our rights. it's not the party of personal responsibility anymore, it's the party of hatred and fear.
I step away from the computer, and I come back to this? Keep this up and Im a devotee too, girlie :D

[irishgrl]

i can't speak for markolas but i'll offer my opinion. it is a basic tenet of christianity that homosexuality is wrong. you can't pick and choose what doctrine you do and don't want to follow in any given religion - it's in the bible. so how can anyone reconcile being gay & christian? i certainly couldn't, so i'm no longer christian. it's the same thing with republicans - that party is about social conservatism, about the mingling of church & state, about doing harm to gay people. simple as that.
It may interest you to know that homosexuality wasnt always denounced. It was very prevalent in Asia, early Roman and Greek society (and Arab too, Id venture to say....) At any rate it wasnt unheard of, and it certainly wasnt vilified the way it is now. Only in America is homosexuality "evil" Mostly because America was founded by religious fanatics. The Bible was tampered with at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, under the auspices of Constantine, who (after Paul) basically created the modern day Christian Church. In that moment in time, the Christian Religion lost the majority of what made it special, ie: a TOLERANCE of one's fellow man.

[irishgrl]

i'm not disagreeing with your basic point - but i believe that the unitarian universalists are pro-gay. at least, they say they are. i know there are christians our there who are supportive of gay issues, but IMO any bible-based religion cannot be considered gay-friendly.
In point of fact, the Unitarian Universalists are the ONLY "mainstream" Christian Religion that embraces the gay culture, as evidenced by their ongoing fight to have their religion accepted by the Boy Scouts as an accepted Christian Religion that could satisfy the "spiritual" component required of all Boy Scouts of a certain age upward. I know this because I chose NOT to sign my son up for Boy Scouts after reading their requirements regarding their Oath of Allegience etc.....please see this: Duty to God (http://www.bsalegal.org/duty-to-god-cases-224.asp) as proof. Blech.
● Webelos Scout
A boy is required to either “[e]arn the religious emblem of your faith” or do two of the following:

“Attend the church, synagogue, mosque, or other religious organization of your choice, talk with your religious leader about your beliefs, and tell your family and Webelos den leader about what you learned.”;

“Tell how your religious beliefs fit in with the Scout Oath and Scout Law, Discuss this with your family and Webelos den leader: What character-building traits do your beliefs and the Scout Oath and Scout Law have in common?”;

“With your religious leader, discuss and write down two things you think will help you draw nearer to God. Do these things.”;

“Pray to God or meditate reverently each day as taught by your family, and by your church, synagogue, or religious group. Do this for at least one month.”;

“Under the direction of your religious leader, do an act of service for someone else. Talk about your service with your family and Webelos den leader. Tell them how it made you feel.”; or

“List at least two ways you believe you have lived according to your religious beliefs.”


and the Boy Scouts work hand in hand with the Religious Right, believe me.

[catinthedark]

In point of fact, the Unitarian Universalists are the ONLY "mainstream" Christian Religion that embraces the gay culture,

nope. again... the united church of canada does. and it is as mainstream protestant as you can get.

[irishgrl]

nope. again... the united church of canada does. and it is as mainstream protestant as you can get.
oops :o I should have also mentioned Unity Church, however it has been considered "fringe" for awhile now...and agreed, I was looking at this from an American point of view. so I'll amend my comment to say the only AMERICAN Christian mainstream religion that OPENLY embraces the Gay Culture is the Unitarian Universalist religion. What happens above or below the border is beyond me. :shrug:

[irishgrl]

i guess i don't understand when people say that the homophobic and misogynistic aspects of the bible are outdated and can be dismissed - i mean, if it's in the holy book, and you don't believe it, can you really be a christian? that's where i get hung up.
The book was tampered with back in Constantine's time (true fact. Please look up the 5th Ecumenical Council). Many of the original texts have been squirreled away in the vaults of the Vatican. Never to again see the light of day because (Just like in Da Vinci's Code) the Catholic Church cant stand too close a scrutiny. And every devout Catholic will vilify me for saying so.

[Sarah]

Yeah, I don't really trust writings translated and re-translated time and time again.

Another thing that really irks me about the Bible is that it has all these accounts.. all these things God's revealed and done for people. And it just stops all of a sudden, because a cave dweller had a vision about how the world is going to end? Give me a break. The text is obviously tampered with, and obviously tampered with to give priests reasons to "punish" people (and then receive payment for offering forgiveness, when that's really between you and God anyway).

I'm not about this whole DaVinci code crap, but I don't trust the Catholic church. Not at all. They actually freak me out a little. I can totally discount uneducated Baptist (and other denominations) hicks who just hate EVERYONE different - not just gays - but everything about Catholics (services, alternate books of the Bible, idolization of the pope, etc) is a horse of a different color to me. I'm not trying to offend anyone.. it's not really individual Catholics, just the group as a scary whole.

[markolas]

Again, UUs aren't really Christian anymore, and most of them would be quick to correct anyone who made the mistake of calling them that. :laugh:

And I'm not trying to defend the Catholic church in any way, but I've always thought their services were really beautiful, if just from an aesthetic POV. I grew up Baptist, and it's just sitting in hard pews for two hours listening to the preacher bellow at you for two hours, and some untalented hack playing the organ while everyone sings (badly) awful hymns. And there's nothing much to look at - maybe an ugly wooden cross stuck to the wall. Catholic Mass, on the other hand, always appealed to the art fag in me. Thankfully, the tradition of Buddhism I converted to has most of the ritual and none of the guilt. Or cockamamy theology. :D

Okay, I shouldn't say that. I'll just say that I ultimately couldn't buy what they were selling; if others are happy with it, I think that's great.

[Sarah]

And I'm not trying to defend the Catholic church in any way, but I've always thought their services were really beautiful, if just from an aesthetic POV. I grew up Baptist, and it's just sitting in hard pews for two hours listening to the preacher bellow at you for two hours, and some untalented hack playing the organ while everyone sings (badly) awful hymns. And there's nothing much to look at - maybe an ugly wooden cross stuck to the wall. Catholic Mass, on the other hand, always appealed to the art fag in me. Thankfully, the tradition of Buddhism I converted to has most of the ritual and none of the guilt. Or cockamamy theology. :D

they are pretty services - particularly at christmas time. i just think it's a bit much to go through all the motions just to sit down in the freakin pew. i guess it's the rituals that i don't really like. the episcopalian church is much the same way. singing every verse of every hymn... it takes like, 30 minutes, my shoes are uncomfortable, and i just.want.to.sit.down. :laugh:

4 denominations later.. i don't go to church anymore. :distress:

[GypsySorcerer]

I agree with markolas regarding the Unitarian Universalist church -- it is not considered to be a Christian denomination by most mainline churches, and most of its members do not consider themselves Christian (I think only about 10% of their members do so.)

In addition to the Unity Church, the only other mainline denomination I think would qualify as pro-gay would be the United Church of Christ. The Episcopal Church is so-so.

Depending on what day you ask me, I can be anywhere from an agnostic to a liberal Christian. I do not consider the Bible to be the Word of God nor do I consider it inerrant.

i mean, if it's in the holy book, and you don't believe it, can you really be a christian? that's where i get hung up.

I understand your position and that (among others) is part of the reason I don't attend church anymore. Like Mary said, the Bible has been tampered with time and time again and Christianity today bears little resemblance to its inception.

I do think if you consider yourself a follower of Christ you are a Christian - adhering to the basic tenet "love your neighbor as yourself." Of course, this is found in just about every religion, so :shrug:

[irishgrl]

I agree with markolas regarding the Unitarian Universalist church -- it is not considered to be a Christian denomination by most mainline churches, and most of its members do not consider themselves Christian (I think only about 10% of their members do so.)

In addition to the Unity Church, the only other mainline denomination I think would qualify as pro-gay would be the United Church of Christ. The Episcopal Church is so-so.

Depending on what day you ask me, I can be anywhere from an agnostic to a liberal Christian. I do not consider the Bible to be the Word of God nor do I consider it inerrant.



I understand your position and that (among others) is part of the reason I don't attend church anymore. Like Mary said, the Bible has been tampered with time and time again and Christianity today bears little resemblance to its inception.

I do think if you consider yourself a follower of Christ you are a Christian - adhering to the basic tenet "love your neighbor as yourself." Of course, this is found in just about every religion, so :shrug:
and each time its said, its good advice :D

Im surprised to hear this description of the UU church.....particularly since they fought the Boy Scouts long and hard to be included as a legit religion that a scout could practice and still attain that particular merit badge. If they do not consider themselves Christian, then I stand corrected.

ETA: I was raised Christain, went to Sunday School and all that. I know all the Bible Stories etc....BUT, as I got older, I became aware that there was a whole other aspect to what called itself "Christianity" and that there was much more out there (like the Apocrypha, Dead Sea Scrolls etc) that indicated that the early Church had an agenda. In fact, there was a great schism in the early church regarding the nature of Jesus (divine vs. earthly). Also, Paul is understood to have actually shaped much of what became early Christianity. (even tho Jesus actually appointed Peter to be the "rock upon which his church would be built")

[BlackWidow]

i can't speak for markolas but i'll offer my opinion. it is a basic tenet of christianity that homosexuality is wrong. you can't pick and choose what doctrine you do and don't want to follow in any given religion - it's in the bible. so how can anyone reconcile being gay & christian? i certainly couldn't, so i'm no longer christian. it's the same thing with republicans - that party is about social conservatism, about the mingling of church & state, about doing harm to gay people. simple as that.

you said it!!!! SO TRUE!!!

[irishgrl]

the Republican party harms more than gay people btw.......

[Rickypt]

There is no difference between Giuliani and the leading Dems when it comes to gay rights. I can see why gay Republicans would support him.

My issue isn't that I can't understand why a gay person would be a Republican, it is why anyone would be one.

[BlackWidow]

There is no difference between Giuliani and the leading Dems when it comes to gay rights. I can see why gay Republicans would support him.

My issue isn't that I can't understand why a gay person would be a Republican, it is why anyone would be one.

The gay - republican thing is just too bizarre for words.
I just do not get it. Talk about turning yourself over to be slaughtered.:distress:

[Rickypt]

The gay - republican thing is just too bizarre for words.
I just do not get it. Talk about turning yourself over to be slaughtered.:distress:

Again, I don't know why anyone would be a Republican, regardless of sexual orientation. But I also don't think Democrats (at national level) are that much better on our issues than Republicans. No leading Dem candidate supports true equality, Obama and Clinton both bombed on the homosexuality/morality question, they love to raise money from us, but they would rather not have to deal with our issues. Howard Dean went on Pat Robertson's show and made clear that Dems don't support gay marriage.

So maybe we don't get slaughtered by the Dem Party, but we do get treated like dirt. I am a Dem because of other issues not because of its sterling record on gay rights. Again, at the national level. I think it is different at state/local level.

[Sarah]

It's too bad the libertarian party can't get some money and attention.

[markolas]

Again, I don't know why anyone would be a Republican, regardless of sexual orientation. But I also don't think Democrats (at national level) are that much better on our issues than Republicans. No leading Dem candidate supports true equality, Obama and Clinton both bombed on the homosexuality/morality question, they love to raise money from us, but they would rather not have to deal with our issues. Howard Dean went on Pat Robertson's show and made clear that Dems don't support gay marriage.

So maybe we don't get slaughtered by the Dem Party, but we do get treated like dirt. I am a Dem because of other issues not because of its sterling record on gay rights. Again, at the national level. I think it is different at state/local level.

I agree with you about Dems not being much better than the Republicans; I guess I support them (albeit half-heartedly, and leerily) because while they aren't going to support full equality for us, I don't think they're going to launch a full-fledged assault on us the way the Republicans have, by pushing Constitutional amendments and appointing fascist Supreme Court justices.

For the record, I'm not registered with any party (in Texas, you don't have to be registered as one or the other to vote in primaries, but you can only vote in the primary of one party in a given election), and the Democrats are way too centrist (or they have been) for me on a lot of issues; my sympathies are more with the Greens or the Socialists.

As for Libertarians, they're just Republicans who smoke pot. :shrug: :laugh:

[Rickypt]

As for Libertarians, they're just Republicans who smoke pot. :shrug: :laugh:

:lol: :lol: :laugh:

[markolas]

I can understand their homosexuality policy, no matter how old-fashioned and discriminatory it is: they aim to protect the kids. That said, the BSA's funding has been pulled in some places because of their politics ( http://www.religioustolerance.org/bsa_4.htm ). I just don't feel like they're quite that narrow-minded. :shrug:

But they throw out kids for being gay, too. It's not about "protecting the kids." They believe homosexuality is immoral, and that's why they ban it. My mother forced me briefly into Cub Scouts when I was about 6. Thankfully, she didn't make me stay in it. That would've been the last thing I would've needed. :rolleyes:

[foxyluva]

i mean, if it's in the holy book, and you don't believe it, can you really be a christian? that's where i get hung up.

I can see what you mean here Carrie, but the bible also says eating shellfish is an abomonation - can you really be a christian and eat sea-food? I think there is alot in the bible that is no longer relevant :shrug:

[GateandGarden]

I can see what you mean here Carrie, but the bible also says eating shellfish is an abomonation - can you really be a christian and eat sea-food? I think there is alot in the bible that is no longer relevant :shrug:I think you might be helping to prove her point, however unintentionally. I wonder if people feel comfortable picking and choosing which parts to honor simply because they see everyone else doing it--it must be okay. I don't see how that's the way to view a holy book, though I can't say that I subscribe to the concept of a holy book, anyway. It would be nice if people just started looking at it like any other book.

[irishgrl]

I'm not going to argue because I agree; there's no need for me to defend the BSA for being anti-gay. But in my experience they were pretty tolerant and open-minded, probably due to my location.
Im from CA too :shrug: perhaps you live in the Bay Area? I could see possibly that being an advantage...

[irishgrl]

I think you might be helping to prove her point, however unintentionally. I wonder if people feel comfortable picking and choosing which parts to honor simply because they see everyone else doing it--it must be okay. I don't see how that's the way to view a holy book, though I can't say that I subscribe to the concept of a holy book, anyway. It would be nice if people just started looking at it like any other book.
re: picking and choosing and the Bible, remember, the early Church fathers picked and chose which parts were to remain canon and which were henceforward to be treated as heresy :shrug:

[GypsySorcerer]

I think you might be helping to prove her point, however unintentionally. I wonder if people feel comfortable picking and choosing which parts to honor simply because they see everyone else doing it--it must be okay. I don't see how that's the way to view a holy book, though I can't say that I subscribe to the concept of a holy book, anyway. It would be nice if people just started looking at it like any other book.

Good to see you on here, my dear. :xoxo:

[SuzeQuze]

Im from CA too :shrug: perhaps you live in the Bay Area? I could see possibly that being an advantage...

I bet it would've been an advantage in MA too. Along those lines I basically got a liberal public education without realizing it. Hence my confusion about how things actually work when I got into the "real world". Not to mention the fact that business and economics courses weren't mandatory which I think they should be. We should learn how to manage our money early in life.