Shooting At Virginia Tech

[UnwindedDreams]

22 dead...including shooter

watching cnn

[UnwindedDreams]

some victims shot in classroom at ambler johnston and norris hall

[estranged4life]

just wrong :(

I don't particularly care for this week (April 19th is this Thursday) and it is already off to a sad start.

[#1LiddyBuckFan]

This time of year always seems cursed...my good friend...his birthday is April 19th...I'm beginning to understand why he hates celebrating it. Something bad always seems to happen. :(

:distress: :distress: :distress: Those poor people...

[estranged4life]

Geez, now the feds are saying 32 are dead - lunacy :shrug:

[UnwindedDreams]

I can't even watch the tv Brian...I'm getting the chills

[#1LiddyBuckFan]

I just can't understand what goes through the mind of someone who would do something like this. It's chilling. :distress:

[BombaySapphire3]

Another horrific reminder of what a gun happy nation the US. is ..I doubt this tragic carnage will even register with the NRA freaks.

[GardenStateGirlie]

i have a lot of friends who go there -- thankfully, they're safe but i cannot believe this :distress: i haven't yet turned on the news but i've been reading the updates.

[Sarah]

Another horrific reminder of what a gun happy nation the US. is ..I doubt this tragic carnage will even register with the NRA freaks.

It takes more than a gun to make someone want to kill.

[BombaySapphire3]

It takes more than a gun to make someone want to kill.

True.. but being able to pick one up at the local Walmart certainly makes it easier when someone decides to.

[strandinthewind]

I think you are correct. I also agree that the NRA is way misguided and mostly dead wrong.

However, if the authorities would enforce the laws already in place, it would likely be a lot harder to get a gun.

I did a google search of "virginia gun control law" and some interesting articles came up.

In the end, I think people ought to be able to own guns (not machine guns) - but the govt. should heavily regulate them. For example, you ought to have to go to your local police station each year to do a ballstics test and to rereister your gun, so that the authorities know it is not stolen, etc.

As for this, this is a horrible tragedy that I think any gun control could not have prevented. But, I suppose we shall have to see where the gun(s) was obtained.

[Sarah]

I just can't believe that as early as it is in this incident, we're already blaming the gun. I mean, I have a gun. I don't feel bad about that, and I get really pissed when people try to make me feel like I should (I'm not saying that you are.. but people have before).

If there's blame to be passed, it should be passed on us for wanting to go soft on killers by trying to eliminate the death sentence. If you have nothing to lose and you know you won't be executed for it, there's really no incentive to not go postal on people when you've finally had enough.

Banning weapons will never be enough. And really, that just creates a huge black market for even more dangerous weapons. This dude apparently busts into a room wearing a vest of ammo. You don't buy automatic ammunition like that at Wal-Mart, even if they are Satan's keepers. You can get a hunting rifle there, but it'd take a hell of a lot of effort (without anyone fighting back) to take down 22 people with a rifle like that.

[strandinthewind]

^^^

I am unsure that this gunman would have been deterred by the DP because he likely thought he would get the DP for this premeditated act. That, and the liklihood that he seemingly is deranged. But, he is dead, so we will never know his mental state unless there is some other evidence like a note, conversations with friends, etc.

[Sarah]

^^^

I am unsure that this gunman would have been deterred by the DP because he likely thought he would get the DP for this premeditated act. That, and the liklihood that he seemingly is deranged. But, he is dead, so we will never know his mental state unless there is some other evidence like a note, conversations with friends, etc.

Well, I mean, that kind of reinforces the point that there are people out there who just don't give a damn, and nothing will ever change that. Everyone can't be rehabilitated or fixed, and you can't stop bad people from happening. That's why taking away guns isn't really the best option. I mean, if somebody comes in my house at me.. I really just have to say I pity the poor bastard. Without a gun, I'd be an easy victim, even for an unarmed man.

[GODDESS6]

this is just so heartbreaking, my heart goes out to all the students & the parents, family & friends of the dead:distress: :distress: ~

[strandinthewind]

I say if you are going to commit a heinous act like this because you are pissed off at the world - do the world a favor and kill yourself instead.

[sasja]

my heart is with the mothers getting the horrible news their child was a victim.... and even more with the one mother who will hear her child was the perpetrator. i weep for them all.

[Sarah]

^^^

I say if you are going to commit a heinous act like this because you are pissed off at the world - do the world a favor and kill yourself instead.

I agree with you 100% there. I can't rationalize the act, and I won't even try. Because, like you say, it is heinous. I just don't think it will stop, ever. There will be more. This will spawn more, and every hateful little piece of **** out there is going to try to outdo the other ones. These school shootings go in waves of copycats, y'know? Why people can't just be decent to each other is beyond me.

[skcin]

Hearing this new today both saddens and scares me. We really aren't prepared for disasters like this. How was this person able to KILL more than 30 people before he died? Maybe I'm cynical, or maybe it's because I used to work with psych patients, but the threat of something like this happening is very real for any school anywhere. But most people I talk to at the school I work at never even think about it, let alone try to have a plan for what they would do. :distress:

[Mari]

Just awful.

Did cross my mind for a sec', who knows this might just be the thing to tip the balance in favour of banning weapons.

[Sarah]

Hearing this new today both saddens and scares me. We really aren't prepared for disasters like this. How was this person able to KILL more than 30 people before he died? Maybe I'm cynical, or maybe it's because I used to work with psych patients, but the threat of something like this happening is very real for any school anywhere. But most people I talk to at the school I work at never even think about it, let alone try to have a plan for what they would do. :distress:

I have always feared that our next terror attacks will be like this. Gunmen bursting into schools, hospitals, etc. America values children and education more than many other things, and really, I'm just surprised we haven't been hit with multiple shootings like this. That really doesn't take a lot of planning.. show up and fire.. and a lot of the terror training videos have shown them working through buildings set up like schools. It's bad enough that we have Americans treating Americans like this, without giving the rest of the world the privilege of watching it. :distress:

[Sarah]

Just awful.

Did cross my mind for a sec', who knows this might just be the thing to tip the balance in favour of banning weapons.

That'd take a constitutional amendment. Not happening. Snowball's chance in hell. Besides, banning the weapons won't get rid of them. It will just make them illegal.

[Mari]

^well, you've got to start somewhere, right?

[BombaySapphire3]

I just can't believe that as early as it is in this incident, we're already blaming the gun. I mean, I have a gun. I don't feel bad about that, and I get really pissed when people try to make me feel like I should (I'm not saying that you are.. but people have before).

If there's blame to be passed, it should be passed on us for wanting to go soft on killers by trying to eliminate the death sentence. If you have nothing to lose and you know you won't be executed for it, there's really no incentive to not go postal on people when you've finally had enough.

Banning weapons will never be enough. And really, that just creates a huge black market for even more dangerous weapons. This dude apparently busts into a room wearing a vest of ammo. You don't buy automatic ammunition like that at Wal-Mart, even if they are Satan's keepers. You can get a hunting rifle there, but it'd take a hell of a lot of effort (without anyone fighting back) to take down 22 people with a rifle like that.
Just the point I was attempting to make some Americans are so attached to their guns and the easy availablity of them that it creates a vicious cycle of violence.I highly doubt the death penalty would be a deterrant to the person that commited this massacre..He most likely understood either way he was going to die either by his own hand or law enforcement's when he began this horrible act.

[strandinthewind]

That'd take a constitutional amendment. Not happening. Snowball's chance in hell. Besides, banning the weapons won't get rid of them. It will just make them illegal.

To be fair, there is no Constitutional right to own handguns, etc. - that is in the pain language of the Constitution. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_bear_arms ; http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/beararms.htm

But, the United States Supreme Court, much like it did in Roe, created this Constitutional right. Id.

To me, the thought of the Founding Fathers wanting to ban all guns is ridiculous. But, be that as it may, it is a Court defined Constitutional Right.

In any event, clear cut Consitutional Rights (like the freedom of the press and the freedom of expression - from govt. interference) are not without limitations. For example, the govt. can pass a law prohibiting the press from printing lies as well as a law making it illegal to shout fire in a crowded theater when there is no fire. This are obvious limitations. The Court has also upheld limitations on the right to choose to terminated a pregnancy in the first trimester. So, clearly, the govt. can regulate the purchase and carrying of guns in the interest of a compelling need for public safety - it already does this my prohibiting ex-cons from owning/possessing weapons.

That is the Con Law lesson for today - donations appreciated :D

[strandinthewind]

Just the point I was attempting to make some Americans are so attached to their guns and the easy availablity of them that it creates a vicious cycle of violence . . . .

If there were some way to get rid of all the guns at once and ensure no more guns ever entered the country, I'd be all for it. But, as long as they are here, I think people ought to be able to own them for protection. Also, I think you ought to have the right to hunt on your land and not have to buy meat from the grocery store.

This, of course, does not mean I support owning machine guns and the like. They ought to be banned.

[Sarah]

^well, you've got to start somewhere, right?

How about at home? With parents and children talking to each other.. dads not beating the living hell out of moms in front of their children.. etc. etc. etc. etc.

The problem is way too complex for an answer as simple as "ban the guns".

People have been killing people since the dawn of time. We can't stop it, and it's only going to get worse and worse until the end of time finally comes.

In a weird way, it kind of makes me think that God has this messed up sense of humor. Like, he's promised us all these wonderful things when we die, but thanks to the actions of the earliest humans (and all of this is supposedly), we're doomed to long periods of suffering before we can see these rewards. In turn, we end up fearing death.. instead of seeing it as a gate to the better after life. Am I ****ed up for thinking that?

[Sarah]

To be fair, there is no Constitutional right to own handguns, etc. - that is in the pain language of the Constitution. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_bear_arms ; http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/beararms.htm

But, the United States Supreme Court, much like it did in Roe, created this Constitutional right. Id.

To me, the thought of the Founding Fathers wanting to ban all guns is ridiculous. But, be that as it may, it is a Court defined Constitutional Right.

In any event, clear cut Consitutional Rights (like the freedom of the press and the freedom of expression - from govt. interference) are not without limitations. For example, the govt. can pass a law prohibiting the press from printing lies as well as a law making it illegal to shout fire in a crowded theater when there is no fire. This are obvious limitations. The Court has also upheld limitations on the right to choose to terminated a pregnancy in the first trimester. So, clearly, the govt. can regulate the purchase and carrying of guns in the interest of a compelling need for public safety - it already does this my prohibiting ex-cons from owning/possessing weapons.

That is the Con Law lesson for today - donations appreciated :D



I know this. But she's talking about banning all weapons.

[strandinthewind]

. . . Am I ****ed up for thinking that?

Lord Child - that and a laundry list of other things :D

:xoxo: :xoxo:

[strandinthewind]

I know this. But she's talking about banning all weapons.

That would not take a Constitutional Amendment.

The USSC could correctly find no clear Constitutional right exists as it is a judicially created right.

Same thing for Roe.

[Mari]

How about at home? With parents and children talking to each other.. dads not beating the living hell out of moms in front of their children.. etc. etc. etc. etc.

The problem is way too complex for an answer as simple as "ban the guns".

People have been killing people since the dawn of time. We can't stop it, and it's only going to get worse and worse until the end of time finally comes.

In a weird way, it kind of makes me think that God has this messed up sense of humor. Like, he's promised us all these wonderful things when we die, but thanks to the actions of the earliest humans (and all of this is supposedly), we're doomed to long periods of suffering before we can see these rewards. In turn, we end up fearing death.. instead of seeing it as a gate to the better after life. Am I ****ed up for thinking that?

Sure the problem is more complicated, but you can't deny that with legal guns, you facilitate gun killings. It's just too easy to say "we can't stop people from killing each other so let's not do anything about it".

Maybe just my simplified thinking: in the Netherlands: guns are pretty much illegal. Guess how few people die of gun-related incidents in this country compared to the USA.

[Sarah]

That would not take a Constitutional Amendment.

The USSC could correctly find no clear Constitutional right exists as it is a judicially created right.

Same thing for Roe.

Even an item in the bill of rights?

They can pry my gun from my cold, dead hands. I will be mightily pissed if they think for one second I will stand by unarmed while criminals run around with black market weapons. F that.

[skcin]

To me, the thought of the Founding Fathers wanting to ban all guns is ridiculous. But, be that as it may, it is a Court defined Constitutional Right.


That is the Con Law lesson for today - donations appreciated :D

1 - Times were a bit different then, to say the least. I'm pretty sure that 911 wasn't around yet to call for help if someone was trying to break into your house.

2 - I'm not giving you a damn thing. You'll just buy another lawn jockey.

How about at home? With parents and children talking to each other.. dads not beating the living hell out of moms in front of their children.. etc. etc. etc. etc.

The problem is way too complex for an answer as simple as "ban the guns".



...parents teaching their kids that they should kill them before they kill us..... :shrug:


BTW - I don't really have an opinion about guns. Just playing devil's advocate.

[Sarah]

Sure the problem is more complicated, but you can't deny that with legal guns, you facilitate gun killings. It's just too easy to say "we can't stop people from killing each other so let's not do anything about it".

Maybe just my simplified thinking: in the Netherlands: guns are pretty much illegal. Guess how few people die of gun-related incidents in this country compared to the USA.

I'm not saying don't do anything about it. But don't deny innocent people the right to protect themselves. How easy is it to smuggle **** into this country? I mean, Good Christ, you can smuggle PEOPLE into this country. We are ****ed every way around it.. in almost every situation that comes up, we're damned if we do and we are damned if we don't.

[Sarah]

...parents teaching their kids that they should kill them before they kill us..... :shrug:



I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Can you explain?

And you know, we already have a ban on automatic weapons.. but, it appears this case had an automatic weapon. Hell lot of good that did, no? Especially since you can easily rig any semi-automatic weapon to be automatic with about 20 bucks in parts and a little bit of spare time.

[strandinthewind]

Even an item in the bill of rights?

They can pry my gun from my cold, dead hands. I will be mightily pissed if they think for one second I will stand by unarmed while criminals run around with black market weapons. F that.

The Second Amendment states:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

The construction of that sentence clearly speaks of the right of a well regulated militia to bear arms. A person is not a well regulated militia.

This is a common misconception.

Again, to be fair, the Founding Fathers certainly could not have imagined the govt. banning all arms as seen here http://www.constitution.org/mil/rkba1982.htm

Here is a nice synopsis of the case law on this (footnotes omitted) :

In spite of extensive recent discussion and much legislative action with respect to regulation of the purchase, possession, and transportation of firearms, as well as proposals to substantially curtail ownership of firearms, there is no definitive resolution by the courts of just what right the Second Amendment protects. The opposing theories, perhaps oversimplified, are an ''individual rights'' thesis whereby individuals are protected in ownership, possession, and transportation, and a ''states' rights'' thesis whereby it is said the purpose of the clause is to protect the States in their authority to maintain formal, organized militia units. Whatever the Amendment may mean, it is a bar only to federal action, not extending to state or private restraints. The Supreme Court has given effect to the dependent clause of the Amendment in the only case in which it has tested a congressional enactment against the constitutional prohibition, seeming to affirm individual protection but only in the context of the maintenance of a militia or other such public force.


In United States v. Miller, the Court sustained a statute requiring registration under the National Firearms Act of sawed-off shotguns. After reciting the original provisions of the Constitution dealing with the militia, the Court observed that ''[w]ith obvious purpose to assure the continuation and render possible the effectiveness of such forces the declaration and guarantee of the Second Amendment were made. It must be interpreted with that end in view.'' The significance of the militia, the Court continued, was that it was composed of ''civilians primarily, soldiers on occasion.'' It was upon this force that the States could rely for defense and securing of the laws, on a force that ''comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense,'' who, ''when called for service . . . were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time.'' Therefore, ''[i]n the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a 'shotgun having a barrel of less than 18 inches in length' at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well-regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense.''

Since this decision, Congress has placed greater limitations on the receipt, possession, and transportation of firearms, and proposals for national registration or prohibition of firearms altogether have been made. At what point regulation or prohibition of what classes of firearms would conflict with the Amendment, if at all, the Miller case does little more than cast a faint degree of illumination toward an answer.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment02/

[Sarah]

I don't know. It says the right of the people. Not the right of the people that form the militia.

I mean, we can talk this all we want. But you have to know that the government is not going to ban guns. Too many donors own guns. :laugh:

[Mari]

I'm not saying don't do anything about it. But don't deny innocent people the right to protect themselves.

'kay, but what is it again that you're trying to protect yourself from? The guns in the first place? I couldn't imagine having a gun, but I couldn't imagine being in the situation where I'd feel I'd need to have one at home either. I'll give you that, the situation in our countries is very different there.
Then again, there's been murders in my city as well. Maybe we just have a different reaction on that here.

How easy is it to smuggle **** into this country? I mean, Good Christ, you can smuggle PEOPLE into this country. We are ****ed every way around it.. in almost every situation that comes up, we're damned if we do and we are damned if we don't.

I won't comment on that 'smuggle'... let's not get started on that one.

[strandinthewind]

. . .

2 - I'm not giving you a damn thing. You'll just buy another lawn jockey . . .

Listen Sugar Teets - I am putting your likeness on the next one :wavey: Actually, my black neighbor wound up with mine to match the one he already had. Of course, he also had a collection of Mammy Fans.

I gotta write a book someday :eek:

[strandinthewind]

I don't know. It says the right of the people. Not the right of the people that form the militia . . . .

No. You are misreading the sentence. That is a dependent clause. Thus, it is the right of the people within a well regulated militia. The Framers knew what they were doing and in this instance, this Amendment was in general made to allow the states to have an armed militia. Remember, the concept of a general Federal army then was not the same as it is today and the concept of states' rights was far greater then than it is today. In other words, the US is 50 happy states as opposed to 13 colonies not really trustworthy of each other. Thus, the need for each colony to arm itself. Again, the thought of an individual citizen not being able to have a gun was nonexistent at this time as clearly more than half of America shot and killed their supper. So, they would not have thought to make a Constitutional Amendment guaranteeing that right :shrug:

Read those articles I posted. They go into this in great detail.

[Sarah]

'kay, but what is it again that you're trying to protect yourself from? The guns in the first place? I couldn't imagine having a gun, but I couldn't imagine being in the situation where I'd feel I'd need to have one at home either. I'll give you that, the situation in our countries is very different there.
Then again, there's been murders in my city as well. Maybe we just have a different reaction on that here.



I won't comment on that 'smuggle'... let's not get started on that one.

Violent people don't need guns to be violent. Robberies and rapes happen with knives or no weapons at all. All a perpetrator has to do is maybe be a little bigger or a little stronger and a lot more angry. That's not taking improvised weapons into account, either.

I'd actually like to see a statistic on gun murders vs. stabbing murder vs. blunt force trauma murder. I'm sure the numbers on the other 2 are much higher than we'd expect.

I've actually protected myself with my gun against someone preparing to bludgeon me to death with a baseball bat. I'm sorry to sound sick here, but one bullet to the dome is probably a more pleasant way to go than being beaten 7 ways to sunday and left for dead.

[Sarah]

No. You are misreading the sentence. That is a dependent clause. Thus, it is the right of the people within a well regulated militia. The Framers knew what they were doing and in this instance, this Amendment was in general made to allow the states to have militia. Again, the thought of an individual citizen not being able to have a gun was nonexistent at this time as clearly more than half of America shot and killed their supper. So, they would not have thought to make a Constitutional Amendment guaranteeing that right :shrug:

Read those articles I posted. They go into this in great detail.

I will sometime when I'm not in the middle of work. I'm skim reading the posts now, otherwise I'd be out of the discussion completely.

I'll go get a few friends, write out a manual, tell them not to cross me upon penalty of death, and then call it a well regulated militia if that's what you'd like. :laugh:

[strandinthewind]

. . . I'll go get a few friends, write out a manual, tell them not to cross me upon penalty of death, and then call it a well regulated militia if that's what you'd like. :laugh:

Well, I certainly would like to see you in the uniform :angel: :angel:

[Sarah]

Well, I certainly would like to see you in the uniform :angel: :angel:

Eyepatches and scarves are mandatory.

http://a791.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/41/l_c57108b03479cb2f6a7453bbb91ce1ee.jpg

:wavey:

[strandinthewind]

Eyepatches and scarves are mandatory.

http://a791.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/41/l_c57108b03479cb2f6a7453bbb91ce1ee.jpg

:wavey:

you heathen!

[Sarah]

you heathen!

:lol: my mother has called me that my entire life.

[strandinthewind]

Apparently, he used handguns with multiple clips:

Gunman, 32 others killed in Va. shooting

By SUE LINDSEY, Associated Press Writer

A gunman opened fire in a Virginia Tech dorm and then, two hours later, shot up a classroom across campus Monday, killing 32 people in the deadliest shooting rampage in U.S. history. The gunman committed suicide, bringing the death toll to 33.

Students complained that there were no public-address announcements or other warnings on campus after the first burst of gunfire. They said the first word they received from the university was an e-mail more than two hours into the rampage — around the time the gunman struck again.

Virginia Tech President Charles Steger said authorities believed that the shooting at the dorm was a domestic dispute and mistakenly thought the gunman had fled the campus.

"We had no reason to suspect any other incident was going to occur," he said.

He defending the university's handling of the tragedy, saying: "We can only make decisions based on the information you had on the time. You don't have hours to reflect on it."

Steger said the university decided to rely on e-mail and other electronic means of notifying members of the university, but with 11,000 people driving onto campus first thing in the morning, it was difficult to get the word out to everyone.

Virginia Tech Police Chief Wendell Flinchum would not say how many weapons the gunman carried. But a law enforcement official, speaking on condition of anonymity because the investigation was incomplete, said that the gunman had two pistols and multiple clips of ammunition.

www.yahoo.com

[skcin]

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Can you explain?



I mean, you say that people need to talk to their kids, and not abuse them, etc. and maybe that would help stop the violence. But you've said in the past that we should bomb the Middle East before they bomb us - wasn't that something you were taught by your family? To be on the offensive rather than the defensive? I guess it doesn't directly relate to what we're talking about here, but it popped into my head after I read your post.

[skcin]

I've heard that the first shooting was around 7:45am. One person killed in a dorm. The next incident wasn't until after 9am. Schools are not prepared. he could have been/should have been stopped.

[Sarah]

I mean, you say that people need to talk to their kids, and not abuse them, etc. and maybe that would help stop the violence. But you've said in the past that we should bomb the Middle East before they bomb us - wasn't that something you were taught by your family? To be on the offensive rather than the defensive? I guess it doesn't directly relate to what we're talking about here, but it popped into my head after I read your post.

No, absolutely not. I'm one of those whose parents have to say, "We have NO IDEA where she came from, seriously." Maybe my dad could be convinced to join my side, but really, I doubt it. He'd probably be more in favor of bombing strategic locations, where as I think they need a do-over. I know that probably makes me a bastard, but I was a bastard long before I started thinking that. :shrug:

I am honored that you remember what I say though. ;)

Really, my view on that comes from growing insensitive and losing hope that things will get better. When you have little children running around with AK's, in my view, there's something wrong with you if you think that sort of life is a thing to be cherished. I know each child is special in their own way, but childhood is being stolen by preachers of hate. The militants get younger and younger.

Alright people, it's been lovely, but it's time to go home. Watch some news about all this and see what they can figure out.. it is terrible. So, uh, if you have to argue with me, wait til tomorrow, cuz I probably won't see it. ;)

[estranged4life]

I can't even watch the tv Brian...I'm getting the chills

for a bit and woke up and the coverage is still being shown.

Sad, very sad.

[JazmenFlowers]

terrible. awful. so sad.

my heart goes out to the victims and families.

[estranged4life]

Virginia Tech Police Chief Wendell Flinchum would not say how many weapons the gunman carried. But a law enforcement official, speaking on condition of anonymity because the investigation was incomplete, said that the gunman had two pistols and multiple clips of ammunition.



multiple clips and a small caliber weapon (.9mm weapon can hold a 19 round clip/The former 10 round limit has expired) inside a fanny pack - not hard to get one into a building with lax security.

Edit: NBC news is reporting the gunmen entered the second building and chained the doors shut before starting his rampage.

[Serrart]

This is really terrible. Is there any update about the killer's identity?

Romy

[estranged4life]

This is really terrible. Is there any update about the killer's identity?

Romy

on the identity of the killer is that he was an Asian male. No name as of yet.

[Serrart]

on the identity of the killer is that he was an Asian male. No name as of yet.

Thanks Brian, I guess all the world is waiting to know.

Romy

[CelticGypsy]

How about at home? With parents and children talking to each other.. dads not beating the living hell out of moms in front of their children.. etc. etc. etc. etc.

The problem is way too complex for an answer as simple as "ban the guns".

People have been killing people since the dawn of time. We can't stop it, and it's only going to get worse and worse until the end of time finally comes.

In a weird way, it kind of makes me think that God has this messed up sense of humor. Like, he's promised us all these wonderful things when we die, but thanks to the actions of the earliest humans (and all of this is supposedly), we're doomed to long periods of suffering before we can see these rewards. In turn, we end up fearing death.. instead of seeing it as a gate to the better after life. Am I ****ed up for thinking that?


Today's event is a terrible tragedy. I don't know what had happened to this young man's personal life but it is sad that any human being feels it is necessary to harm and kill people than to talk out their problems to a therapist or even their own family and friends. Maybe, we should all start paying more attention to our loved ones and making sure they are doing okay mentally and physically.

My prayers goes out to all of the families who lost a family member and also to their friends.

[GODDESS6]

i was glad to hear when i woke up that no other students or professors passed in the night & i hope no one else dies from this~ they are going to release more stuff about the gunman this morning~ a young man from where i live is a student of engineering at virginia tech, he was in the building where the 2nd shooting occured & was within 100ft of the gunman before hiding under a table~ the young man who is named greg snow, said he didn't have his cell phone w/ him & no one in class did either, so he wasn't able to phone his family here until 4:30 p.m. to let them know he was o.k.~ this just brings back so much sadness & reminders of other school shootings such as columbine & others that names slip my mind at the moment~

as a mother i am so petrified of something happening like this in my son's school, i know he's 7, but shootings have happened in grade school too, remember the little girl on the "bowling for columbine" movie, i think her name was kayla~ she was 6 & in 1st grade & was shot & killed by a classmate~ we live in a nice area, an area i would consider safe, but at times such as these it reminds you, that things like this can happen anywhere, anytime~ it literally made me ill yesterday when this all came on the news~ i can't even imagine the fear & absolute sadness these kids/young adults along w/ the staff went thru & are going to go thru in the future~ & so many of them interviewed said how they felt safe there~ i just feel so bad for all of them:angel: ~

[#1LiddyBuckFan]

:distress:

BLACKSBURG, Va. - A Virginia Tech senior from South Korea was behind the massacre of at least 30 people locked inside a campus building in the deadliest shooting rampage in modern U.S. history, the university said Tuesday.

Ballistics tests also show that one of the guns inside that building was used in another shooting two hours earlier, at a dorm, Virginia State Police said.

Police identified the shooter as Cho Seung-Hui, 23, a senior from South Korea who was in the English department at Virginia Tech and lived on campus.

"It's certainly reasonable to assume that Cho was the shooter in both cases," but authorities haven't made the link for sure, said Col. Steve Flaherty, superintendent of the Virginia State Police.

A law enforcement official, speaking on condition of anonymity because the information had not been announced, said Cho was carrying a backpack that contained receipts for a March purchase of a Glock 9 mm pistol.

[SuzeQuze]

Sure the problem is more complicated, but you can't deny that with legal guns, you facilitate gun killings. It's just too easy to say "we can't stop people from killing each other so let's not do anything about it".

Maybe just my simplified thinking: in the Netherlands: guns are pretty much illegal. Guess how few people die of gun-related incidents in this country compared to the USA.

Seems like a simple solution doesn't it? I agree with strand that owning guns shouldn't be illegal but they should be highly regulated and nobody should be able to own an automatic or semi-automatic weapon. Clearly something has to be done. I want to see some action after this. At long last.

It sickens me how the television news has such a hardon for this story. :distress: Can we at least feign some sympathy? I can't even watch it. I know some stations are better than others and I only saw my sensationalized local station's intro which made me want to vomit so I left the room.

[#1LiddyBuckFan]

It sickens me how the television news has such a hardon for this story. :distress: Can we at least feign some sympathy? I can't even watch it. I know some stations are better than others and I only saw my sensationalized local station's intro which made me want to vomit so I left the room.

I agree with you totally. :distress:

[BTFLCHLD]

I only slept four hours tops...I have been unable to watch the news or really read this thread...it is just too sad. I have been putting my head elsewhere which is probably not how some would handle it but I just dont want to face the ugliness of some people. :distress:

[estranged4life]

It sickens me how the television news has such a hardon for this story. :distress: Can we at least feign some sympathy? I can't even watch it. I know some stations are better than others and I only saw my sensationalized local station's intro which made me want to vomit so I left the room.

been seeing this 'garbage news barrage' since CNN's gawd-awful sensationalization of what happened in my backyard 12 years ago this week (Which is why I NEVER watch CNN)...

At LEAST the local news channels back during 1995 showed sympathy to the victim's...Since all my local news channels are Oklahoma City based channels - Whereas the networks were only interested in trying to top each other in guerilla news tactics.

If you need an example today of those guerilla tactics today, one unnamed "Unfair & Unbalanced" network just reported about a school in Austin, TX being locked down due to threats.

[strandinthewind]

I think the media is a double edged sword. Clearly, this is newsworthy and deserves the attention it is getting. At the same time, the media knows that this kind of thing raises rev. through advertisement sales -- the result of a much higher number of viewers.

From what I have seen, the interviews with the students were relevant and respectful - though I certainly have seen them all.

I do think, however, that the 24/7 coverage is a bit much.

[sara1998]

Now they're showing his face, and I can't stand to look at it.

It really makes you wonder what some people are thinking when they commit murder in this proportion.

[skcin]

It sickens me how the television news has such a hardon for this story. :distress: Can we at least feign some sympathy? I can't even watch it. I know some stations are better than others and I only saw my sensationalized local station's intro which made me want to vomit so I left the room.



Yes, Meredith Viera patting herself on the back this morning for being on the campus this morning was great. :rolleyes: Pointing out that students have told them that they're happy they're there. WTF? Yeah, you're a real big help, I'm sure.

And the opening tragedy music/graphics. Amazing how quickly they put together photo memorials/montages of pics taken during the event. It's barely been a day - people have to absorb & understand what's happened before they can "remember."

[strandinthewind]

I wonder if this was terrorist related. By terroroist, I mean 9/11 perpetrators.

[sara1998]

Yes, Meredith Viera patting herself on the back this morning for being on the campus this morning was great. :rolleyes: Pointing out that students have told them that they're happy they're there. WTF? Yeah, you're a real big help, I'm sure.

And the opening tragedy music/graphics. Amazing how quickly they put together photo memorials/montages of pics taken during the event. It's barely been a day - people have to absorb & understand what's happened before they can "remember."

I'm glad I'm not home watching this garbage.... Yeah, Viera is going to solve all the problems just by showing her pretty face. Do them all a favor: Don't go there for photo ops.... you're just getting in the damn way.

[estranged4life]

I wonder if this was terrorist related. By terroroist, I mean 9/11 perpetrators.

home-grown terrorism?

[strandinthewind]

Yes, Meredith Viera patting herself on the back this morning for being on the campus this morning was great. :rolleyes: Pointing out that students have told them that they're happy they're there. WTF? Yeah, you're a real big help, I'm sure.

And the opening tragedy music/graphics. Amazing how quickly they put together photo memorials/montages of pics taken during the event. It's barely been a day - people have to absorb & understand what's happened before they can "remember."

If students have told them that, then she is correct. Just because you think they should not be there, etc. - does not mean others do not want them there to tell the world this story, which I think is an important task :shrug:

[estranged4life]

I'm glad I'm not home watching this garbage.... Yeah, Viera is going to solve all the problems just by showing her pretty face. Do them all a favor: Don't go there for photo ops.... you're just getting in the damn way.

back in April 1995 a certain powerful African-American female talk show figure had 2 of her people arrested as they 'got in the way' in OKC immediately after the Murrah Bombing - Those arrested were warned, but they didnt listen.

[strandinthewind]

home-grown terrorism?

We shall see. He was from South Korea, which does not have a large Muslim presence. Plus, he apparently acted alone, which is not the Al-Q method, at least historically. Finally, Al-Q tends to attack large structures, which this was not. So, Al-Q could be ruled out by these "facts."

[JazmenFlowers]

And the opening tragedy music/graphics. Amazing how quickly they put together photo memorials/montages of pics taken during the event. It's barely been a day - people have to absorb & understand what's happened before they can "remember."
omg. I thought this exact same thing.

[estranged4life]

We shall see. He was from South Korea, which does not have a large Muslim presence. Plus, he apparently acted alone, which is not the Al-Q method, at least historically. Finally, Al-Q tends to attack large structures, which this was not. So, Al-Q could be ruled out by these "facts."

about my "home-grown" terrorism post - I was pointing out how I am suprised that those network channels havent, as of yet, pointed towards "home-grown" terrorism as the cause....

Give 'em time, I'm sure they will say "The Virgina Tech shooter was a lurker on the Ledge, and was disappointed that another member of this well-known Fleetwood Mac website has first dibs on Stevie Nicks in her multiple laces outfit featured inside the booklet for her newest album release - and the shooter left a note stating he was depressed that another member of this site said he would love to wear the same outfit to the infamous KOTS" :shrug:

[GODDESS6]

the shooter left some sort of note, something about debauchery & rich kids were in it, & he signed it w/ something wierd, they haven't released all the details in the note tho~

his pic just frightens me~

[#1LiddyBuckFan]

Yes, Meredith Viera patting herself on the back this morning for being on the campus this morning was great. :rolleyes:

She's gotten on my nerves for years.

[estranged4life]

the shooter left some sort of note, something about debauchery & rich kids were in it, & he signed it w/ something wierd, they haven't released all the details in the note tho~


that news blurb, about the note. Time to drum up some more ratings & sponsor $$$$

[skcin]

If students have told them that, then she is correct. Just because you think they should not be there, etc. - does not mean others do not want them there to tell the world this story, which I think is an important task :shrug:

When did I say I thought they shouldn't be there? :shrug: I said that she was patting herself on the back publicly about it. It's tacky, and unnecessary. I'm so tired of people having to make tragedies like this partially about them when it's not. It should be about the students and the families - not about how great it is that the media is there.

[estranged4life]

It's tacky, and unnecessary. I'm so tired of people having to make tragedies like this partially about them when it's not. It should be about the students and the families - not about how great it is that the media is there.

which is my reason for never watching CNN after the OKC Bombing.

Thankfully our own OKC news stations did the BEST reporting of ANYONE (Which lasted from 4/19/05 to the destruction of the reamins of the Murrah Building 5/24/05), because it was NOT about the local news channels staff members, it was about the dead in the Murrah Building...And their families.

[strandinthewind]

about my "home-grown" terrorism post - I was pointing out how I am suprised that those network channels havent, as of yet, pointed towards "home-grown" terrorism as the cause....

Give 'em time, I'm sure they will say "The Virgina Tech shooter was a lurker on the Ledge, and was disappointed that another member of this well-known Fleetwood Mac website has first dibs on Stevie Nicks in her multiple laces outfit featured inside the booklet for her newest album release - and the shooter left a note stating he was depressed that another member of this site said he would love to wear the same outfit to the infamous KOTS" :shrug:

LOL -- I agree - though doing so may make me wind up in an undisclosed location :eek:

[strandinthewind]

When did I say I thought they shouldn't be there? :shrug: I said that she was patting herself on the back publicly about it. It's tacky, and unnecessary. I'm so tired of people having to make tragedies like this partially about them when it's not. It should be about the students and the families - not about how great it is that the media is there.

I think she was saying the kids wanted them there and that they were helping them. To me, that is different than patting yourself on the back or making it about the reporters. Thus, I concluded you did not want them there. Mea Culpa.

Out of curiosity - what would you have the press do? Place an open cam and boom mic in the middle of the campus with no reporters :laugh:

Seriously, the reporters are necessary to tell the world the story, which from what I have seen is what they are doing. I think that is what M said/implied she was helping do.

On edit - I remember after 9/11 on Larry King, Larry (and other shows as well) would take pictures of the "Has anyone seen X" posted all around NYC and he would have people on his show nightly asking has anyone seen so and so and they had a picture, etc. The people were so thankful to him. Yet, people slammed him and others for patting hiumself on the back because he said things like we were able to help.

[skcin]

Again, I never said they shouldn't be there, so I don't get your "camera & mike but no reporters" comment. But reporters are there to report the news, not tell us about how all this has affected THEM. Not to tell us that people are glad to see THEM. Of course it's emotional, and of course everyone is hurt & upset & saddened. But give us the news, interview witnesses and do your damn job.

It would be as if I sent a sympathy card to a victim's family and they called to say thanks, and then I came here to tell everyone about how they thanked me.

[strandinthewind]

Again, I never said they shouldn't be there, so I don't get your "camera & mike but no reporters" comment.

I was joking - hence the laughie and the next comment staring with "Seriously" :cool:

But reporters are there to report the news, not tell us about how all this has affected THEM. Not to tell us that people are glad to see THEM. Of course it's emotional, and of course everyone is hurt & upset & saddened. But give us the news, interview witnesses and do your damn job.

It would be as if I sent a sympathy card to a victim's family and they called to say thanks, and then I came here to tell everyone about how they thanked me.

I do not see them doing that. Maybe we are watching different things.

[strandinthewind]

The Chicago Tribune reported that the note included a rambling list of grievances that railed against "rich kids," "debauchery" and "deceitful charlatans" on campus. The paper also reported that Cho died with the words "Ismail Ax" in red ink on the inside of one of his arms.

Ismail implies a Muslim link and "Ax" I believe means "pen" -- So, that could be taken as he thought he was the secretary of Ismail - in other words, he was acting on behalf of Ismail. I hope this is not Muslim related because the public reaction against the innocent Muslims, a la 9/11, will happen.

[Livia]

Side note: Bomb threat at St. Edward's University, here in Austin - a note left in a bathroom - campus has been shut down and evacuated.

http://www.statesman.com/news/content/news/stories/local/04/18/18stedwards.html

[Mari]

The Chicago Tribune reported that the note included a rambling list of grievances that railed against "rich kids," "debauchery" and "deceitful charlatans" on campus. The paper also reported that Cho died with the words "Ismail Ax" in red ink on the inside of one of his arms.

Ismail implies a Muslim link and "Ax" I believe means "pen" -- So, that could be taken as he thought he was the secretary of Ismail - in other words, he was acting on behalf of Ismail. I hope this is not Muslim related because the public reaction against the innocent Muslims, a la 9/11, will happen.

Oh come on... I was just waiting for someone to cry "terrorists!!!"
Sigh.
I'll bet that 'ismael ax' on the arm thing is fabricated. I'm willing to bet on it.

[danax6]

I wonder if this was terrorist related. By terroroist, I mean 9/11 perpetrators.Please tell me you're kidding.

[strandinthewind]

Please tell me you're kidding.

I am saying this could be a crazy person who wants to punish Americans for Iraq or something like that. That he allegedly has that tat on his arm suggests that. But, we shall see once more is known.

[strandinthewind]

Oh come on... I was just waiting for someone to cry "terrorists!!!"
Sigh.
I'll bet that 'ismael ax' on the arm thing is fabricated. I'm willing to bet on it.

Well, his act has branded him a terrorist reagrdless of his affliation with any group :shrug:

Again, I hope this is not Muslim related, but if that tat is there, it certainly suggests it.

Again, time will tell.

[Mari]

^no it doesn't.
don't you know the definition of terrorism? organised, against the state, all that?

[strandinthewind]

merriamwebster.com defines terrorism as "the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion" :shrug:

In this case, this man terrorized this campus to show his opposition to the injustices of the world, which he apparently viewed as "rich kids," "debauchery" and "deceitful charlatans" on his campus.

But, if terrorism is defined as against the state, etc. -- then, no, the information we have now indicates this guy was not part of that.

[danax6]

^no it doesn't.
don't you know the definition of terrorism? organised, against the state, all that?Exactly. Regardless of his reasons, he's still a lone loon. Even if it's Muslim related, it still doesn't make it a terrorist attack. People are far too quick with labeling things these days.

[Sarah]

if you make terrorizing people your business, you're a terrorist. whatever the reason. i'm not talking about terror by the government's definition. strictly webster. a person who terrorizes or frightens others. terrorist.

[strandinthewind]

Here is an expanded def of terrorism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism

I meant it in the sense that this person terrorized the campus againt what I think he judged as injustice in his life and hatred toward others. Obviously killing them was his way of trying to coerce the world into seeing his point.

He also could be some nut who wants to punish the US for the recent foreign policy. Certainly those people exist :shrug:

[danax6]

merriamwebster.com defines terrorism as "the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion" :shrug:
You left out the part that says 'for political purposes'.

[strandinthewind]

You left out the part that says 'for political purposes'.

It dod not say that on my computer to wit:

terrorism

2 entries found for terrorism.
To select an entry, click on it.
terrorism
narco-terrorism

Main Entry: ter·ror·ism
Pronunciation: 'ter-&r-"i-z&m
Function: noun
: the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion
- ter·ror·ist /-&r-ist/ adjective or noun
- ter·ror·is·tic /"ter-&r-'is-tik/ adjective

http://www.merriamwebster.com/dictionary/terrorism

[danax6]

if you make terrorizing people your business, you're a terrorist. whatever the reason. i'm not talking about terror by the government's definition. strictly webster. a person who terrorizes or frightens others. terrorist.Yeah, but Jason brought up '9/11 perpetrators'.

[skcin]

I know we don't have all the facts, but it sounds to me like this kid was f*cked up in the head, and snapped over a fight with the ex. Perhaps the stress of school got to be too much for him & he lost it. :shrug:

[danax6]

It dod not say that on my computer to wit:
Cool. I used a different dictionary. :laugh:

[Sarah]

you are getting way too technical here.

if this dude busting into a classroom, shooting the professor, then firing rounds at students as they cower on the floor isn't terrorizing, then i don't know what the **** is.

and what's all this about a note.. something about the rich kids. it's a social issue dealing with the status of others. is that not related to politics, if you must have that element in order to consider the word?

[strandinthewind]

Yeah, but Jason brought up '9/11 perpetrators'.

I did in the sense that it was Muslim related, which certainly 9/11 was.

This guy is a Muslim (or at least from what we know has Muslim names tatooed on him) who has killed 32 people and expressed that anger as a motive.

That suggests to me that it could be Muslim motivated.

And, I have repeatedly stated I hope I am wrong.

[strandinthewind]

you are getting way too technical here.

if this dude busting into a classroom, shooting the professor, then firing rounds at students as they cower on the floor isn't terrorizing, then i don't know what the **** is.

and what's all this about a note.. something about the rich kids. it's a social issue dealing with the status of others. is that not related to politics, if you must have that element in order to consider the word?

The wikipedia cite above, which looks to the UN def. of terrorism, says that techinically you do. So, if he was just a madman with no political or ideologial agenda, then no, he would not fit into the official def. of terrorist.

[strandinthewind]

Cool. I used a different dictionary. :laugh:

I know. I looked up terrorist before I used it. But, apparently MW is incorrect here - at least to the point of political or ideological goals must be the motive.

[danax6]

you are getting way too technical here.

if this dude busting into a classroom, shooting the professor, then firing rounds at students as they cower on the floor isn't terrorizing, then i don't know what the **** is.

and what's all this about a note.. something about the rich kids. it's a social issue dealing with the status of others. is that not related to politics, if you must have that element in order to consider the word?Okay, here's the deal. Jason says he hopes it's not terrorist related, and he quite clearly says: terrorist as in 9/11 perpetrators. I do a double take, because that was not your average little whacko terrorist shooting people during a blind rage at a school campus. That involved a whole lot of careful planning and had a large group of deranged people supporting 'the cause' and had a clear political message. So I asked him if he was kidding, because in no way are the same people that are behind 9/11 involved in this shooting, even if the guy that did the shooting somehow believes in the same things or has a freakin' tattoo on his arm, or is even a Muslim.

It's still not the same. And that's what I meant by people labeling other people or situations far too quickly these days.

[Sarah]

okay, well, here's what my dictionary says.

ter·ror·ist /ˈtɛrərɪst/
Pronunciation[ter-er-ist]
–noun
1. a person, usually a member of a group, who uses or advocates terrorism.
2. a person who terrorizes or frightens others.
3. (formerly) a member of a political group in Russia aiming at the demoralization of the government by terror.
4. an agent or partisan of the revolutionary tribunal during the Reign of Terror in France.
–adjective
5. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of terrorism or terrorists: terrorist tactics.


2 is what I'm going by. The common sense edition. quite frankly, i don't think that subterranean mutants such as al qaeda operatives deserve their own definition.

[skcin]

One of the dead was a Holocaust survivor. To survive something like that, then die like this..... :distress:

[estranged4life]

I hope this is not Muslim related because the public reaction against the innocent Muslims, a la 9/11, will happen.

that **** has been happening, WAY before 9/11- when the OKC Murrah Building attack happened, people in 'the City', went on a 'witch hunt' against the Muslims citizens of OKC due in part to CNN reporting "According to OK Gov.Keating, President Clinton has said he believed the terror attack was perpetrated by "Muslim Extremists"".

One innocent pregnant Muslim woman was so scared of the anti-Muslim backlash from erroneous news, that she lost her baby - This lady was featured in the Oklahoma Today magazine tribute to the Murrah Bombing - I remember thinking that was so ****ing wrong.

Another OKC Muslim, who was flying home to a Middle-Eastern country, taking electronics appliances such as a TV's/PC's (Which his family could not find in their homeland) was arrested on board this trans-continental flight, brought back to US in shackles/handcuffs and put on display as if HE was the bomber.

[Sugar]

I always thought "terrorism" needed to have an element of coersion in it (as stated by one of the billions of definitions given by Jason :laugh: ), that is these techniques are used to bring about some change. All indicators seem to point to this being more about vengence, so based on that, I don't think this is "terrorism."

I mean, all violent crime has some measure of terror...do we want to start calling it all "terrorism"?

[Sarah]

I always thought "terrorism" needed to have an element of coersion in it (as stated by one of the billions of definitions given by Jason :laugh: ), that is these techniques are used to bring about some change. All indicators seem to point to this being more about vengence, so based on that, I don't think this is "terrorism."

I mean, all violent crime has some measure of terror...do we want to stert calling it all "terrorism"?

And the change the "real" terrorists want is... all Americans dead.. so.. on a smaller scale, this guy wanting all these "rich kids" dead is the same damn thing.

I think it doesn't matter what we call it, which is why I say it's ridiculous to get so technical as to say, "oh my god, no, you can't call this terrorism. the wiki has spoken."

[skcin]

the shooter left some sort of note, something about debauchery & rich kids were in it, & he signed it w/ something wierd, they haven't released all the details in the note tho~

his pic just frightens me~


Why? :shrug: He looks like a typical college student. Oh, wait, is that why it scares you?

[strandinthewind]

Okay, here's the deal. Jason says he hopes it's not terrorist related, and he quite clearly says: terrorist as in 9/11 perpetrators. I do a double take, because that was not your average little whacko terrorist shooting people during a blind rage at a school campus. That involved a whole lot of careful planning and had a large group of deranged people supporting 'the cause' and had a clear political message. So I asked him if he was kidding, because in no way are the same people that are behind 9/11 involved in this shooting, even if the guy that did the shooting somehow believes in the same things or has a freakin' tattoo on his arm, or is even a Muslim.

It's still not the same. And that's what I meant by people labeling other people or situations far too quickly these days.

I respectfully disagree. This guy did a whole lot of planning on his own. He had an ammo vest and brought several chains to the school to prohibit people from exiting the builing.

As to his motive. Who knows. Time will tell. But, if he did it in retaliation to the US or something like that - then yes, he is a terrorist under any def.

The Muslim markings indicate to me that he could be a terroritst. After all, almost all recent mass killings were Muslim related, had Muslim participants, etc. So, people are going to draw that conclusion.

I fully realize that not all Muslims are violent, etc. But, this guy was horribly violent and he apparently has Muslim markings on his arm that suggest he was some kind of messenger. To me, that smacked of a full blown Mulsim terrorist attack a la 9/11.

Again, I hope I am wrong.

[Sarah]

I hope so too, strand. Because if you're right, then we can expect this to be the first of many. :distress:

[strandinthewind]

I always thought "terrorism" needed to have an element of coersion in it (as stated by one of the billions of definitions given by Jason :laugh: ),

Hey there :mad:

:laugh:

[strandinthewind]

One of the dead was a Holocaust survivor. To survive something like that, then die like this..... :distress:

I know - I read that and was horrified.

Here is some more info:

FOX Facts: Alleged Virginia Tech Gunman Cho Seung-Hui

Tuesday , April 17, 2007

The police department at Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University on Tuesday morning identified the gunman who killed at least 30 people Monday as Cho Seung-Hui, a 23-year-old undergraduate senior majoring in English.

Cho, who is thought to have killed himself at the end of the shooting rampage in Norris Hall, was a South Korean national and resident alien from Centreville, Va., about 30 miles west of Washington, D.C. in Fairfax County and adjacent to Dulles Airport and the Manassas Civil War battlefields.

Police reported no known motive for either the massacre in Norris Hall or the killings of a man and woman earlier Monday morning in the West Ambler Johnston residence hall, but a rambling note was reportedly found in Cho's dorm room.

According to the Chicago Tribune, the note railed against "rich kids" and "debauchery" and "deceitful charlatans" on campus.

The Tribune also said Cho had been behaving strangely lately, setting a dorm room on fire and allegedly stalking women. Other reports said he had been taking medicine for depression.

A Virginia Tech professor said Cho's work in creative-writing class was so disturbing that he had been referred to the school's counseling service.

Professor Carolyn Rude, chairwoman of the university's English department, said she did not personally know the gunman. But she said she spoke with Lucinda Roy, the department's director of creative writing, who had Cho in one of her classes and described him as "troubled."

"There was some concern about him," Rude said. "Sometimes, in creative writing, people reveal things and you never know if it's creative or if they're describing things, if they're imagining things or just how real it might be. But we're all alert to not ignore things like this."

She said Cho was referred to the counseling service, but she said she did not know when, or what the outcome was. Rude refused to release any of his writings or his grades, citing privacy laws.

Sources told the Tribune that the words "ISMAIL AX" were also found written in red ink on the inside of one of Cho's arms.

The reference may be to the Biblical sacrifice of Abraham, in which God commands the patriarch to sacrifice his own son. Abraham begins to comply, but God intervenes at the last moment to save the boy.

In the Jewish and Christian traditions, the son is Isaac, father of the Jewish people; in Islam, it is his older half-brother, Ismail (Ishmael in Hebrew).

Abraham uses a knife in most versions of the story, but some accounts have him wielding an ax.

A more obscure reference may be to a passage in the Koran referring to Abraham's destruction of pagan idols; in some accounts, he uses an ax to do so.

Cho's family lived in a two-story townhouse in Centreville, where neighbor Abdul Shash said the gunman played basketball and wouldn't respond if someone greeted him.

He was "very quiet, always by himself," said Shash.

The Fairfax County public-school system said Cho had graduated from Westfield High School in nearby Chantilly, Va., in 2003.

A yearbook photo of Cho released by the Fairfax County public schools shows an unsmiling, bespectacled boy wearing a plaid flannel shirt over a light-colored T-shirt.

The Chicago Tribune said Cho's family ran a dry-cleaning business, and that he had a sister who went to Princeton University.

Police said at least one of the two pistols found with Cho's body was also used in the killings of a man and a woman, also both undergraduates, in the West Ambler Johnston residence hall earlier Monday morning.

"It's certainly reasonable to assume that Cho was the shooter in both cases," said Col. Steve Flaherty, superintendent of the Virginia State Police.

Flaherty stressed that authorities had not firmly established the links between the two incidents.

Several news reports said that the woman killed in the first incident, 19-year-old veterinary student Emily Hilscher, was the gunman's girlfriend, and that the man killed, resident assistant and undergraduate senior Ryan "Stack" Clark, had tried to intervene in an argument between the two.

However, the Washington Post quoted John W. McCarthy, an administrator for rural Rappahannock County, Va., where Hilscher's family lives, as saying she had no connection to Cho.

"As far as we can tell — wrong place, wrong time," said McCarthy. "She was a beautiful, smart, great kid."

Cho himself was a resident of Harper Hall, another on-campus residence hall. A fellow resident of the dorm told the Washington Post that he recognized Cho and was "shocked" to learn he was the gunman.

A South Korean foreign ministry official in Seoul said Cho had emigrated to the U.S. in 1992, when he would have been about 8 years old.

The official, Cho Byung-se, no presumed relation, said the foreign ministry wished to express its condolences to the families of the victims and that it was "in shock beyond description."

He added that he hoped the incident would not "stir up racial prejudice or confrontation."

The Yonhap news agency reported that South Korean President Roh Moo-hyun on Tuesday delivered his condolences to the families of the Virginia Tech shooting victims.

State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said Cho was a legal permanent resident — in other words, a "green card" holder — who had lived in the U.S. for several years.

A U.S. federal government official said Cho had been born in South Korea on Jan. 18, 1984 and entered the U.S. on Sept. 2, 1992.

As a green card holder, Cho would have been eligible to purchase a handgun in Virginia, barring a criminal record.

Police on Monday said the gunman's fingerprints were not on any criminal database, and officials said Tuesday his identity was firmly established by the fingerprints in his immigration records.

A Virginia Tech police spokesman said Tuesday Cho had been issued a speeding ticket on April 7 for driving at 44 mph in a 25-mph zone on campus. His court date was set for May 23.

ABC News cited unnamed sources as saying Cho returned to his own dorm room after the initial shootings, where he re-armed himself and took the time to write a "disturbing note" before heading to Norris Hall.

Survivors of the Norris Hall rampage had described the gunman as a tall Asian male who seemed eerily calm as he methodically killed students and instructors in the engineering building.

Derek O'Dell, who was wounded in the arm in Norris Hall as the gunman opened fire in his German class, killing the instructor and presumably several students, said the shooter had "no specific target" and was "just taking out anybody he could."

A law enforcement official, speaking on condition of anonymity because the information had not been announced, said Cho was carrying a backpack that contained receipts for a March purchase of a Glock 9-mm pistol.

"He was a loner, and we're having difficulty finding information about him," school spokesman Larry Hincker said.

Two law enforcement officials, speaking on condition of anonymity because the information had not been announced, said Cho's fingerprints were found on the guns used in both shootings. The serial numbers on the two weapons had been filed off, the officials said.

Reports late Monday had speculated that the shooter may have been a 24-year-old Chinese man who had been issued a student visa in Shanghai.

Earlier Tuesday, a South Korean radio station reported that the suspect was a South Korean national with the surname Wang.

The radio station, identified as the Christian Broadcasting System, cited two anonymous South Korean officials.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.

www.foxnews.com

[Sugar]

And the change the "real" terrorists want is... all Americans dead.. so.. on a smaller scale, this guy wanting all these "rich kids" dead is the same damn thing.

I think it doesn't matter what we call it, which is why I say it's ridiculous to get so technical as to say, "oh my god, no, you can't call this terrorism. the wiki has spoken."

I always tended to think of those "changes" as being a bit more ideological (getting rid of Israel as a state, getting Americans out of the Middle East, etc.). I mean are all serial killers now "terrorists"? I suppose in one sense they are, (they commit terror), but I tend to think the definition is a bit more specific, even political, than that. And that's not based on wiki, Merriam, or Webster, that's just a personal understanding.

I do agree that this conversation is getting a bit ridiculous, though...

[strandinthewind]

Here is what the brilliant shrub had to say - what an a$$

Bush on gun control: 'Crack down on people who commit crimes'
Posted by Mark Silva at 12:22 pm CDT

The White House, acknowledging today that the shooting deaths of 33 people at Virginia Tech is certain to rekindle a national debate about gun control, says President Bush will “participate’’ in that discussion.

But until now, the president has largely watched that discussion from the sidelines – voicing a willingness to extend a federal ban against assault weapons, for instance, but exerting no role in averting the expiration of that ban in 2004.

And the president has made his own philosophy on the subject clear, as he did during a 2004 campaign debate with Democratic rival John Kerry on the campus of Arizona State University: “I believe law-abiding citizens ought to be able to own a gun. I believe in background checks at gun shows or anywhere to make sure that guns don't get in the hands of people that shouldn't have them. But the best way to protect our citizens from guns is to prosecute those who commit crimes with guns… Neighborhoods are safer when we crack down on people who commit crimes with guns. To me, that's the best way to secure America.’’

The Bush administration has faced questions on gun control from the start.

On Feb. 5, 2001, then Press Secretary Ari Fleischer faced questions in the James S. Brady Press Briefing Room – named for the former press secretary for President Reagan who had been incapicated in an attempted assassination of the president. The signature provision of the so-called “Brady Bill’’ enacted in his name in 1993, which had required a five-day waiting period for the purchase of a handgun, already had lapsed in 1998 – with “instant’’ criminal background checks by computer replacing the checks that the five-day wait had permitted.

“The nation witnessed another workplace violence shooting yesterday,’’ a reporter told Fleischer. “And when President Clinton was here, he often used workplace shootings as a means of delivering another message to Capitol Hill about gun control.… Does the president have anything general to say about this shooting, or anything that informs him or the Justice Department about how to proceed on the issue of guns and crime? ‘’

“Well, that whole issue is one on which the president, as you know, has spoken out in favor of -- for example, and this doesn't immediately address the shooting, which unfortunately -- too often with these laws, there are people who are going to break laws, and we cannot stop that in all cases,’’ Fleischer said. “But what the president has proposed is to have safety locks, mandatory sales of safety locks with hand guns. In Texas, he proposed raising the age at which a youth could gain access to a handgun from 18 to 21. ‘’

The White House would suppport similar federal legislation, he said.

“There were a series of commitments the president made during the course of the campaign on gun safety and on gun programs,’’ Fleischer said. “But the president… does believe one of the answers is in tougher enforcement of the current laws, to make certain that the laws that are on the books are enforced, which will be a role of the Attorney General. We believe that especially in school zones and people who bring guns into schools -- there are federal laws prohibiting that, and we can step up enforcement of those laws.’’

In March of 2001, he was asked about a proposal by Sen. Chuck Schumer (D-N.Y.) for a code of responsbility for gun owners. This was a day, March 7, on which a student was wounded in a shooting at Bishop Neumann High School in Williamsport, Pa.

“Let me tell you what the president's position has been,’’ Fleischer said. “He thinks that everybody in society has to do a good job of teaching right from wrong. He thinks that is a question of values, and and that lies at the core of so many of these terrible and unfortunate incidents, including what took place today in Pennsylvania.

“It all comes down to, again, people knowing right from wrong and parents raising their children in a manner that helps them to carry out their acts in a way that is rightful and not wrongful,’’ Fleischer said.


On May 5, 2001, Fleischer was asked about a proposal by Sens. John McCain (R-Ariz.) and Joe Lieberman (D-Conn.) for a three-day waiting period for purchases of firearms at gun shows.

“The president supports closing on the gun show loophole so that criminals are not able to go to gun shows to get their hands on guns,’’ Fleischer said. “He favors doing so with a plan that does it as quickly as is possible. ‘’

Six years later, another Gun Show Loophole Closing Act of 2007 has been introduced in the House.

It was Helen Thomas, the irrascible veteran of the White House press corps and columnist, who asked Fleischer in May 2002: “Is the president happy that the Justice Department now has affirmed the NRA position on gun control, everyone has the right to have a gun?

“Helen,’’ Fleischer replied, “the president has always been a believer in the rights of individual law-abiding Americans to own weapons. There are reasonable restrictions that are placed on those rights. The President has spoken out in the past in support of those restrictions. But make no mistake, the president does believe, and has said so, that law-abiding individual citizens have a right to bear arms.

Much of the federal action on gun control had come during the mid-1990s, including the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act signed by President Clinton in November 1993 and the Federal Assault Weapons Ban signed by Clinton in September 1994.

But the five-day waiting period for handgun purchases enacted with the Brady Bill had expired in 1998, and in 2004, the federal ban on assault weapon purchases also was expiring.

President Bush had said he would sign an extension of the assault weapons ban, but he did not press for its passage, and an amendment offered by Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) for a 10-year extension of the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban was voted down by 90-8.

In his debate with Kerry on Oct. 14, 2004, Bush was asked by the moderator about saying he would support the assault weapons ban but doing “nothing’’ to encourage the Congress to extend it.

“Actually, I made my intentions -- I made my views clear,’’ Bush said. “I did think we ought to extend the assault weapons ban, and was told the fact that the bill was never going to move because Republicans and Democrats were against the assault weapon ban, people of both parties.

“Now, I believe law-abiding citizens ought to be able to own a gun,’’ he said. “I believe in background checks at gun shows or anywhere to make sure that guns don't get in the hands of people that shouldn't have them. But the best way to protect our citizens from guns is to prosecute those who commit crimes with guns.’’

Kerry said in that debate: “I believe it was a failure of presidential leadership not to reauthorize the assault weapons ban…. Most of the law enforcement agencies in America wanted that assault weapons ban.’’

“I believe America is less safe,’’ said Kerry, maintaining that he would have gone out and campaigned for extension of the ban. “I'd have said, then we're going to have a fight. And I'd have taken it out to the country and I'd have had every law enforcement officer in the country visit those congressmen. We'd have won what Bill Clinton won. ‘’

In October 2006, heading into a conference on school safety following the shootings at an Amish school in Pennsvylvania, the White House was asked if the president might seek any new gun controls with this forum sponsored by Attorney General Alberto Gonzales and Education Secretary Margaret Spellings.

“They will be talking about both the law enforcement side of things and how to prevent violence, how to recognize it when it comes -- or recognize it before it starts,’’ Deputy Press Secretary Dana Perino said.

“And the debate over gun control is one that Americans are keenly aware of,’’ she said on Oct. 6. “It's a politically charged debate. And as you know, the president has been supportive of the Second Amendment in general, believes that people who are law-abiding citizens and pass background checks should be allowed to own guns.’’

Had the president’s thinking about gun control “changed because of what’s happened in these incidents over the past few weeks?’’ she was asked.

“Not that I've heard,’’ Perino said. “I think that the purpose of this conference is to bring together the collective thinking of America, in terms of not only how we can help recognize violence and stop it before it happens, but to look at how we can make schools safer places to be, and also a good focus on how we can help communities heal, especially children heal.’’

On Monday, the day of the worst mass-shooting in the history of the United States, the White House was asked again if something needs to be done about gun control and school violence.

“I would point you back to the fact that the president, along with Secretary Spellings, hosted… a conference on school gun violence after the Amish school shooting and the other shootings that had happened,’’ Perino said, “The tragedies are the ones that just collectively break America's heart and are ones that we deeply feel, because all of us can imagine what it would be like to have been at your own school, your own college, and to have something happen.’’

“If there are changes to the president's policy we will let you know,’’ she said. “But we've had a consistent policy of ensuring that the Justice Department is enforcing all of the gun laws that we have on the books and making sure that they're prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.’’

And today, as President Bush and First Lady Laura Bush headed for the campus of Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, Va., for a convocation for the 32 victims of the student gunman who then turned the gun on himself, the White House suggested that the “conversation’’ about gun control will continue – but not yet.

“We understand that there is going to be, and there has been, an ongoing national conversation about gun control… We are going to be participants,'' Perino said today. “Everyone has been shaken to the core by this event,'' she said, suggesting the nation should ''allow the facts of the case to unfold as we talk any more about policies…The facts of this case need to unfold…We will participate in that (conversation), but today is not the day.''


http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/news_theswamp/2007/04/bush_on_gun_con.html

[Sugar]

Hey there :mad:

:laugh:

You love it. :p

[danax6]

I respectfully disagree. This guy did a whole lot of planning on his own. He had an ammo vest and brought several chains to the school to prohibit people from exiting the builing.
Okay, so then by your definition everyone that commits first degree murder is a terrorist? I'd quote you the legal definition of 'First Degree Murder' but it pretty much comes down to killing someone deliberately and intentionally. Premeditated.

But I'll bow out now, before Sarah starts accusing me of becoming too technical again.

[skcin]

The Tribune also said Cho had been behaving strangely lately, setting a dorm room on fire and allegedly stalking women. Other reports said he had been taking medicine for depression.

A Virginia Tech professor said Cho's work in creative-writing class was so disturbing that he had been referred to the school's counseling service.
Professor Carolyn Rude, chairwoman of the university's English department, said she did not personally know the gunman. But she said she spoke with Lucinda Roy, the department's director of creative writing, who had Cho in one of her classes and described him as "troubled."

"There was some concern about him," Rude said. "Sometimes, in creative writing, people reveal things and you never know if it's creative or if they're describing things, if they're imagining things or just how real it might be. But we're all alert to not ignore things like this."


Classic signs on a mental illness or breakdown.


BTW - I haven't found anything else about the words written in red ink except for the Tribune. Nothing on CNN or MSNBC as of yet.

[Sarah]

But I'll bow out now, before Sarah starts accusing me of becoming too technical again.

Ah, cram it. :lol: (jk.)

I'm just saying that over analyzing the word terrorist is kind of taking away from the situation. It's like, okay, this is still a mass murder. It's downplaying that fact just a bit by saying that maybe it isn't deserving of the Title of TerrorTM.

[strandinthewind]

Okay, so then by your definition everyone that commits first degree murder is a terrorist? I'd quote you the legal definition of 'First Degree Murder' but it pretty much comes down to killing someone deliberately and intentionally. Premeditated.

But I'll bow out now, before Sarah starts accusing me of becoming too technical again.

I do not think I am saying that. I am using that term to this situation where this idiot killed 32 people on a carefully planned rampage and had a Muslim warchant in red ink on his arm. To me, that smacks of a Muslim terrorist act. And, I could very well be totally wrong and I hope I am. But, me thinking that is not wholly from left field given these facts and recent world events :shrug:

Interestingly, the Ax marking could have been recently written on his arm as the article says it was in "red ink" -- It did not say it was a tatoo.

[strandinthewind]

Classic signs on a mental illness or breakdown.


I agree.

BTW - I haven't found anything else about the words written in red ink except for the Tribune. Nothing on CNN or MSNBC as of yet.

The AP is reporting it as indicated by the Fox article I cited.

[skcin]

I agree.



The AP is reporting it as indicated by the Fox article I cited.



"Sources tell the Tribune...." As of right now, it's not confirmed. :( I hope it turns out to be a rumour.

[strandinthewind]

"Sources tell the Tribune...." As of right now, it's not confirmed. :( I hope it turns out to be a rumour.

I cannot believe they would report it if it were untrue - not is a story of this size.

[skcin]

I cannot believe they would report it if it were untrue - not is a story of this size.

I would hope not, but I'll wait until all the facts are officially given to us by the police to form an opinion other than the fact that this kids was ****ed up in the head.

[strandinthewind]

OMG

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0417071vtech1.html

[danax6]

Ah, cram it. :lol: (jk.)

I'm just saying that over analyzing the word terrorist is kind of taking away from the situation. It's like, okay, this is still a mass murder. It's downplaying that fact just a bit by saying that maybe it isn't deserving of the Title of TerrorTM.I'm certainly not trying to downplay it. It is horrible. Just like 9/11 was horrible, just like Katrina was horrible, just like that tsunami was horrible, just like the Holocaust was horrible. The only thing that I wanted to point out is that because of some instilled fear that people seem to have these days, which the media (and not to mention the government) is certainly largely to blame for, everyone is so quick to yell 'terrorists! muslims! al qaeda! third world war! we're all going to die! aaah!' these days. A little perspective would be nice, if only so that people can sleep better at night.

[Sarah]

i stopped at page 4.
that is ****ed up, daisy.

[Sarah]

I'm certainly not trying to downplay it. It is horrible. Just like 9/11 was horrible, just like Katrina was horrible, just like that tsunami was horrible, just like the Holocaust was horrible. The only thing that I wanted to point out is that because of some instilled fear that people seem to have these days, which the media (and not to mention the government) is certainly largely to blame for, everyone is so quick to yell 'terrorists! muslims! al qaeda! third world war! we're all going to die! aaah!' these days. A little perspective would be nice, if only so that people can sleep better at night.

I'm not saying YOU are downplaying it. The entire discussion does, even though it's not on purpose.

I don't think I've seen anyone here trying to be like, omg, WWIII, etc etc etc. It appears to me that the general consensus is that this dude is ****ed up, and indications are that he has some sort of muslim affiliation. Obviously that's something we're curious about. And please, don't let the fact that I'm actually participating in this discussion fool you. I have known that people are f'd up.

Anyway. I slept fine last night.

[danax6]

I don't think I've seen anyone here trying to be like, omg, WWIII, etc etc No, not here, I meant in general also. Well, until Jason brought up 9/11 terrorists. I wonder how well he sleeps at night. :laugh:


Anyway. I slept fine last night.Oh, me too. I had a really hard time getting out of bed this morning, I was having the most marvelous dream. :wavey:

[strandinthewind]

. . . I wonder how well he sleeps at night. :laugh: . . . .

Come on over and find out :angel: :angel:

Seriously, I think the Ax comment on his arm will lead many people to think that this is terrorist related.

[Sarah]

KNOXVILLE, Tenn. (AP) - Several hundred students and teachers were evacuated yesterday from two buildings on the University of Tennessee's main campus after a bomb scare was called in.
Authorities evacuated McClung Tower and the Humanities Building after a threat was called in at around 2 p-m.
U-T police Captain Keith Lambert said nothing was found and the evacuation was canceled before 5 p-m.
Lambert said he was optimistic that they were going to be able to identify the caller.
University spokesman Tom Milligan said there was no connection between the shooting at Virginia Tech campus and the bomb threat at U-T.
In light of the slayings at the Blacksburg campus that left 33 people dead, the university was extra cautious about the bomb scare. Campus police have stepped up patrols.
The U-T-Knoxville campus planned a moment of silence today to coincide with a similar one at Virginia Tech.


(Copyright 2007 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)

[Rickypt]

I am using that term to this situation where this idiot killed 32 people on a carefully planned rampage and had a Muslim warchant in red ink on his arm. To me, that smacks of a Muslim terrorist act.

I actually don't see anything resembling a Muslim terrorist act in this event. He clearly had mental illness and I don't believe it is the m.o. of Muslim terrorists to show a breakdown in mental stability over time (i.e., setting fire to the dorm, writing disturbed creative writing showing some kind of obvious personal trauma in the past, etc.)

The only connection to a Muslim terrorist attack that I see is that he killed a bunch of people and then himself, but we all know that kind of behavior has happened a zillion times. To me, smacks of a crazy guy who went on a killing rampage. The Muslim thing on his arm doesn't really mean anything to me--he was mentally ill, could be a zillion reasons why he chose it.

[strandinthewind]

ABC, citing law enforcement sources, reported that the note, several pages long, explains Cho's actions and says, "You caused me to do this."

It will be interesting to read this note.

[skcin]

^ I read that this morning. I wonder who he meant by "you." Counsellers? Teachers? The "rich kids?" :distress:

I haven't been thinking much about the killer or his motives. I've been thinking about the lives lost. Most were young, intelligent KIDS in the prime of their life. Going to classes one minute, no doubt stressed & thinking about finals, and about summer break, going home to their families. The next minute - dead. Gone. Their futures are gone. What they might have become is gone. What they could have contributed to our world is gone.

[estranged4life]

just reported that one of the dead is a resident of Oklahoma - Her grandmother said "Lauren was an exceptional girl" :(

OU just had a lockdown - A 'reported' gunman was spotted on campus...

Turns out to be a student carrying an umbrella (It is raining after all)

[strandinthewind]

^ I read that this morning. I wonder who he meant by "you." Counsellers? Teachers? The "rich kids?" :distress:

I haven't been thinking much about the killer or his motives. I've been thinking about the lives lost. Most were young, intelligent KIDS in the prime of their life. Going to classes one minute, no doubt stressed & thinking about finals, and about summer break, going home to their families. The next minute - dead. Gone. Their futures are gone. What they might have become is gone. What they could have contributed to our world is gone.

I remember college as a fukcing blast. I loved going to class and seeing my friends. I hung out at the frat house and on campus. It was just such a happy time.

I think that is what most of these kids were experiencing.

I wonder if for them it will ever be the same again?

I think for most it will not be and that is just horrible.

There is so much darkness in the world that these bright periods in your life are you memories that help you get through all the rest of the BS that comes later. How many times have we told fun college stories on this board alone?

Now, 30 of these kids are gone forever, many more are physically scarred likely for life, and the they and the rest of the survivors have had their happy times likely tainted if not gone.

[Rickypt]

The plays:

http://newsbloggers.aol.com/2007/04/17/cho-seung-huis-plays/

[strandinthewind]

Wow :distress: :distress:

I just saw parts of what people are calling the note in this case (not official) -- This is one sick fukc let me tell you.

[JazmenFlowers]

I hope so too, strand. Because if you're right, then we can expect this to be the first of many. :distress:
I wouldn't go that far.

[Villavic]

A peruvian was one of the killed students. Just seen his parents in the news. They are travelling right now to US. As I see he was not a "rich kid"

[Sarah]

I wouldn't go that far.

And why not? It's obviously a very easy attack to pull off. Simultaneous attacks at several schools is not outside the scope of my imagination - like planes smacking into buildings was.

I don't think this is going to turn out to be a planned terror attack at all. But it seems to me that an organized group could and would do this sort of thing on a larger scale. And get quite the rise out of us.

[JazmenFlowers]

my imagination
that's why. :wavey:

and please, let's not bring 9-11 into this.

[Sarah]

that's why. :wavey:

and please, let's not bring 9-11 into this.

I'm sorry, but I'm not capable of censoring myself for no good reason. I've never done it before, and I'm not going to do it for you now.

[estranged4life]

I predict there will be a copy-cat of this shooting...

[Sarah]

I predict there will be a copy-cat of this shooting...

i wish i could argue with you, but that does tend to be the case with school shootings.

[AliceLover]

Watching the 48 hours special on TV was just heart wrenching. What a ****ing psycho. This makes me nervous about next year. :(

[sara1998]

http://www.myspace.com/april16th2007

[JazmenFlowers]

I'm sorry, but I'm not capable of censoring myself for no good reason. I've never done it before, and I'm not going to do it for you now.
oh dear please don't flatter yourself. no one's asking you to censor yourself. are you kidding? :lol:

[JazmenFlowers]

has anyone seen where the international media caught Bush talking to the person next time him throughout the "moment of silence" he asked for during the convocation? :rolleyes:

how ****ing pathetic. he's a disgrace. I'll go a step further than the Dixie Chicks and say I'm embarassed he's from this planet.

[GODDESS6]

has anyone seen where the international media caught Bush talking to the person next time him throughout the "moment of silence" he asked for during the convocation? :rolleyes:

how ****ing pathetic. he's a disgrace. I'll go a step further than the Dixie Chicks and say I'm embarassed he's from this planet.

i caught that:mad: ~ whata moron!!!~

i also loved this morning when the former columbine now v.tech student told meredith & matt on TODAY that it is good the media is there to tell the story, but that they need to back -off somewhat & let them mourn the way they want & mourn w/ ea other w/out the media all up all over them~

[#1LiddyBuckFan]

has anyone seen where the international media caught Bush talking to the person next time him throughout the "moment of silence" he asked for during the convocation? :rolleyes:

how ****ing pathetic. he's a disgrace. I'll go a step further than the Dixie Chicks and say I'm embarassed he's from this planet.


643 Days 3 Hours 5 Minutes 59 Seconds...and counting. :woohoo:

[Sarah]

oh dear please don't flatter yourself. no one's asking you to censor yourself. are you kidding? :lol:

no, dear, don't try to play me for a fool. you specifically told me to not mention a topic. sheebus. now strand's gonna have to come give us the wiki definition for censor, so that we may dig into this a bit deeper. bwahahaha.

all this meaningless chatter (bull****?) aside, i don't like being told what to say or do. it's not that it makes me "angry" or whatever else, so we don't have to make this personal unless you just want to.

:shrug: it's just that telling me not to talk about something makes me want to talk about it even more. i mean, it's not like i was screaming "oh my god, this is JUST like 9/11." i was simply referencing the fact that the report says plainly that an attack like 9/11 was "outside the scope" of our imaginations - and, taking it a bit further - that "real terrorists" bursting into many campuses nationwide at a coordinated time is not "outside the scope" of my imagination.

jumping in there and trying to make me feel bad for even TYPING 9-11 is just a bit ridiculous, especially since the mention was self-contained, with no need to discuss 9-11 further. it was most definitely not a cue for a 9-11 conversation. as if i would give a rat's ass what most of you people even think about it in the first place. don't flatter YOURself.

[BombaySapphire3]

as if i would give a rat's ass what most of you people even think about it in the first place. don't flatter YOURself.

Then why bother to go into such detail in an attempt to explain yourself?:shrug: :shrug:

[Sarah]

Then why bother to go into such detail in an attempt to explain yourself?:shrug: :shrug:

i don't have much better to do at the moment, so i thought i'd make sure i was crystal clear.

next question? :wavey:

[GODDESS6]

msnbc just reported receiving some sort of "package" from the gunman & are doing a press conference in a few minutes~

[estranged4life]

msnbc just reported receiving some sort of "package" from the gunman & are doing a press conference in a few minutes~

what a weird situation.

[GODDESS6]

what a weird situation.

yeppers, they said they think he made this whatever it is after the 1st shooting & b4 the 2nd, & it included more ramblings, photos & video~

[estranged4life]

yeppers, they said they think he made this whatever it is after the 1st shooting & b4 the 2nd, & it included more ramblings, photos & video~

that the video "may" have been of the first shooting, that left 2 dead.

Sick....

[#1LiddyBuckFan]

that the video "may" have been of the first shooting, that left 2 dead.

Sick....

:distress:

[skcin]

This was in The Buffalo News this morning, from AP:

Cho indicated in his letter that the end was near and that there was a deed to be done, the official said. He also expressed disappointment in his own religion and made several references to Christianity, the official said.

The official said the letter was found either in Cho’s dorm room or in his backpack. The backpack was found in the hallway of the classroom building where most of the shootings occurred, and it contained several rounds of ammunition, the official said.

Citing unidentified sources, the Chicago Tribune reported that Cho had recently set a fire in a dorm room and had stalked some women.

[carrie721]

This was in The Buffalo News this morning, from AP:

christian crusades 2.0 y/n?

[BombaySapphire3]

Now they are saying Cho Sueng Hui was commited to a mental hospital in December of 2005 as an eminent danger to self and others by the VA courts and he was still able to obtain the guns and ammo fairly easily!If this doesn't blow the lid off insanely lax gun control laws I don't know what will.

[estranged4life]

showed a news clip (From a CBS Network News report) that said a recent study showed that almost all the known mass murderers had suffered some type of trama, injury or brain damage, and that a study (Featuring brain scans) of murderers on death rown in Texas showed the exact same thing, most if not all had some type of brain injury that made it where the person could not control their urges and/or anger.



Gee, great...That's ALL I needed to hear :shrug:

[skcin]

Now they are saying Cho Sueng Hui was commited to a mental hospital in December of 2005 as an eminent danger to self and others by the VA courts and he was still able to obtain the guns and ammo fairly easily!If this doesn't blow the lid off insanely lax gun control laws I don't know what will.

I had heard that if the person doesn't have a previous criminal record, they can sell them the gun. I don't think any mental health background check is required in VA, I may be wrong though.

[DrummerDeanna]

^^

He'd been committed against his will at one point, and with THAT one cannot purchase a gun.

To get around that? He simply lied. Apparently there is no real check system in place for that. That's what was just reported in an NPR story.

[estranged4life]

^^

He'd been committed against his will at one point, and with THAT one cannot purchase a gun.

To get around that? He simply lied. Apparently there is no real check system in place for that. That's what was just reported in an NPR story.

In Oklahoma, when one purchases a gun there is a 5 day wait period before you can pick up the weapon. There is supposed to be a complete background check for criminal and/or mental problems...

But, if I wanted to I can own a gun (I dont, well except for a "cap gun" :lol: ) even though I am technically a "convicted felon" from an arrest back when I was a STUPID F-TARD juvenile (That record has been expunged), so that proves to me the system is not that hard to bypass.

[JazmenFlowers]

don't flatter YOURself.
um :lol:

oh don't worry. I have people do that for me.
Then why bother to go into such detail in an attempt to explain yourself?:shrug: :shrug:
I was wondering that myself.

[skcin]

Cho compared himself to Jesus & blamed the rich kids for making him do this.

I am so tired of seeing those photos of him holding weapons, clips of that video he made, of the media constantly reporting about his past & theories about why he did it, etc. These people have been through enough. The last thing they need right now is to see him on the front page every newspaper, every morning show, every news channel - constantly, 24/7. :distress:

[strandinthewind]

^^^

They just got the video yesterday :shrug:

I, too, am tired of the coverage and think the 24/7 is too much. But, others apparently see it as newsworthy and that is the reality of 24 hour news stations.

As to whether this is the last thing the students there need right now - I am unsure. They are still giving the interviews. The public ceremonies of mourning are taking place. I think it is important the world sees those ceremonies.

In the end, I think this will go away in a day or two unless new evidence is revealed. Interestingly, we have not been shown the note he left in his room and there has been no more mention of Ismail's Ax - a google search revealed a little more but nothing really significant. Yet, they played his video.

[strandinthewind]

Interestingly, gun control appears to have had no effect on this. Morevoer, waiting periods and the like also would have had no effect. Scary indeed.
__________________________________________________

Campus killer's purchases apparently within gun laws

Story Highlights
• Judge in 2005 deemed Cho "imminent danger to himself" due to "mental illness"
• Tech shooter contacted by police for harassing women, speaking of suicide
• Cho bought 22-caliber pistol in February, 9 mm Glock in March
• Gun dealer "heartbroken," but "there was no reason for me to deny the sale"


(CNN) -- When Cho Seung-Hui purchased two handguns this year, he apparently followed the letter of the law to get the weapons he eventually used in a shooting rampage on the Virginia Tech campus.

Some questions have been raised over Cho's mental health and whether that should have prevented him from being able to purchase the handguns.

A Virginia judge in December 2005 deemed Cho "an imminent danger to himself because of mental illness" and ordered outpatient treatment for him, according to court documents. (Watch campus shooting rekindle debate on gun control)

Special Justice Paul M. Barnett, who filled out the certification and order for involuntary admission to a mental health facility, checked the box that said: "The alternatives to involuntary hospitalization and treatment were investigated and deemed suitable."

"Only if I order them into a hospital is there any effect on their gun rights," Barnett told CNN on Wednesday. (Read the judge's order - PDF)

Virginia and federal law prohibit the sale of guns to anyone who has been sent unwillingly to a mental institution.

Police twice investigated Cho in the fall of 2005 after female students complained about his contacts with them, university police Chief Wendell Flinchum said Wednesday. Neither of the women pressed charges.

A former suite mate of Cho, who wished to be identified only as Andy, told CNN that Cho had harassed three women and had spoken of suicide after a run-in with police.

"I told the cops that. And they took him away to the counseling center for a night or two," the roommate said.

The Virginia State Police Web site features a 16-question "Firearms Purchase Eligibility Test." The site says that answering yes to any of the queries means a person may not be able to purchase a firearm.

Question 9 states: Have you ever been adjudicated legally incompetent, mentally incapacitated, or been involuntarily committed to a mental institution?

Because Cho was not involuntarily committed to a mental institution, his appearance before the judge and his evaluation at a mental health facility did not show up when he bought the guns.

Gun buyers are regulated by the laws of the state in which they live.

In Virginia, a person 21 or older can buy only one handgun a month, unless he has a license to buy more. Cho bought one gun, a .22-caliber pistol, in early February and another, a 9 mm pistol, in March.

Cho bought one of the guns he used in the shootings from an out-of-state dealer, according to Joe Dowdy, the owner of the pawnshop across the street from campus where Cho picked up the Walther P22 pistol on February 9.

Under federal law, a weapon purchased from an out-of-state dealer must be shipped to an in-state, federally licensed gun dealer, who runs a background check. The buyer must appear in person to pick up the gun, and the dealer receives a small fee -- usually between $20 and $40 -- for facilitating the pickup.

Cho bought a Glock 19 and 50 rounds of ammunition on March 12, staying just within the limit of one gun purchase per month, said John Markell at Roanoke Firearms in nearby Roanoke.

Even though Cho is a resident alien, Markell said, it was legal for him to purchase a firearm, and he presented three forms of identification: a driver's license, a checkbook with an address matching the driver's license, and a resident alien card. Cho moved to the United States from South Korea at age 8.

State police conducted an instant background check that probably took about a minute, the store owner said.

Virginia law requires no waiting period, so Cho was able to legally take home the Glock on the same day that he bought it.

Markell, whose daughter graduated from Virginia Tech in 1997, said he was "heartbroken" to find out one of the guns came from his store. But, he said, "There was no reason for me to deny the sale."

Criminal defense attorney Daniel Gotlin told CNN he believes the easiest way to prevent similar incidents in the future "is to not make guns so easily available to individuals with problems."

"Virginia has one of the easiest gun qualification laws in the whole United States," he said.

And Democratic Virginia Rep. Jim Moran said on the House floor: "It is simply too easy to obtain a firearm."

But Jacob Sullum of Reason magazine says gun-control laws "disarm the law-abiding people, but they leave the criminals free to attack their victims who have no defense."

"It's never been never demonstrated in any conclusive way that gun control reduces crime," he said.

Find this article at:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/19/gun.laws/index.html

[skcin]

It's been almost 24 hours since they got the video - anyone who wanted to see it would have done so by now. And I didn't say I was tired of hearing the victims. I said I was tired of seeing & hearing about CHO.

You don't think it's "the last thing they need." Seeing the man who murdered your friends & classmates on the front page of every newspaper & TV channel, and not being able to escape the constant media coverage? Not helpful in the healing process. :( These people haven't even had time to take it all in, they haven't begun to really grieve. Yes, they've done interviews, and yes, they've told their stories. But most are still in shock, I'm sure. I doubt it's really sunk in yet. Now, during the time when it really will sink in & people will need to start the healing process, they have to see his face everywhere.

Quote from a VT student from cnn.com:

Doctoral student Ken Stanton, 29, said he resented that Cho was getting airtime while many of the victims, such as his friend Jeremy Herbstritt, remained anonymous.

"I'm sick of it," he said. It's like you can't get away from it -- every time I walk by a TV, there it is."

Stanton vowed to try to appear on as many news shows as possible.

"My focus now is getting on TV and taking time away from [Cho]," he said. "Every minute I can get on is one less minute he'll be on."

[DavidMn]

its pathetic how so many people have that train weck mentality. You know, their ratings spike when they show this ****.:mad:

[estranged4life]

When I think of gun laws, I am drawn back to Tim McVeigh on this very day 12 years ago.

In 1996 Oklahoma passed a law that legalized 'concealed weapon', had that law passed 1 year earlier Tim McVeigh, as he headed away from downtown OKC after bombing the Murrah Building, would have NOT been arrested on the traffic stop.

He would instead had been booked on just the traffic violations and released there-in-after.

[strandinthewind]

I would like to see the 24/7 stop. However, I realize other people consider this newsworthy and they want to see it and the people involved are still participating in it. That is all I am saying.

On edit - I think you think that showing the killer once and then never again is enough. That is just not reality. The 24 hour news channels do not operate that way. And, it is a double edged sword. If we want instant news and news on the net, that is the price we pay. Who knows, many people may not have seen the killer's message until this morning because they were at work or whereever.

[estranged4life]

I would like to see the 24/7 stop. However, I realize other people consider this newsworthy and they want to see it and the people involved are still participating in it. That is all I am saying.

I can imagine how the 24/7 coverage must feel to those who lost a child during this massacre, because 12 years ago we received 24/7 coverage for around 1 month of the Murrah Building attack.

I quit watching the TV coverage of VT...To stressful.

[strandinthewind]

^^^

Interestingly, I went to about ten major newscites and none of them had Cho's pic up anymore - exfept CNN had a timny pic of it in the most watched videos section, which indicates people are still interested in viewing it. Fox had that preacher's wife and CNN had the Pres. of the Univ. Some had the Atty. Gen.'s Congressional hearings. Also, all of them had other stories in their main stories part of the page. So, I think it is beginning to fade a little, at least on the net.

[skcin]

I would like to see the 24/7 stop. However, I realize other people consider this newsworthy and they want to see it and the people involved are still participating in it. That is all I am saying.

On edit - I think you think that showing the killer once and then never again is enough. That is just not reality. The 24 hour news channels do not operate that way. And, it is a double edged sword. If we want instant news and news on the net, that is the price we pay. Who knows, many people may not have seen the killer's message until this morning because they were at work or whereever.

I know what you're saying. I don't mean to say that they shouldn't talk about it at all. But this morning, it was on CNN, Fox News, MSNBC, and all 3 of my local affiliates (network as well as local coverage.) That's literally all I saw today for the 30 minutes I watch TV in the morning. Actually, I take it back - NBC eventually did a segment about getting more fruit in your diet. :p But in general - yeah, that was it. I can't imagine how I would feel if I knew someone who had been killed, constantly having to see/hear about Cho.

^^^

Interestingly, I went to about ten major newscites and none of them had Cho's pic up anymore - exfept CNN had a timny pic of it in the most watched videos section, which indicates people are still interested in viewing it. Fox had that preacher's wife and CNN had the Pres. of the Univ. Some had the Atty. Gen.'s Congressional hearings. Also, all of them had other stories in their main stories part of the page. So, I think it is beginning to fade a little, at least on the net.


Good, I'm glad. I can't help to think that maybe people are starting to call them saying "enough."

[gldstwmn]

I can imagine how the 24/7 coverage must feel to those who lost a child during this massacre, because 12 years ago we received 24/7 coverage for around 1 month of the Murrah Building attack.

I quit watching the TV coverage of VT...To stressful.

Agreed. When I went to the CNN homepage the first thing I saw were the photos of the guy with the guns. I've been having anxiety attacks ever since this thing happened so I can't imagine what's it's like for those that are actually there or have lost someone. It's horrifying.

[strandinthewind]

. . . Actually, I take it back - NBC eventually did a segment about getting more fruit in your diet. :p . . . .

The fiber keeps you regular :angel:

[Sarah]

Student accused of Virginia Tech-style threat

NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) - Just two days after the shootings at Virginia Tech, a Nashville high school senior was arrested on a charge of threatening to carry out a similar attack.
Police said yesterday 18-year-old Terrence Johnson Junior yelled in a school hallway that he had a gun and a knife.
Johnson said -- in his own words -- "I'm gonna do what they did up at Virginia Tech."
No weapons were found on him or in a search of his locker at Madison School, a special education school for students with learning problems.
He was charged with reckless endangerment.
Nashville Police Chief Ronal Serpas said he has no tolerance for that behavior.
Serpas said considering the tragedy in Virginia, school settings need words of reassurance, not threats.

what is wrong with people, anyway?

[strandinthewind]

To Paula's point:

April 19, 2007
Package Forced NBC to Make Tough Decisions
By BILL CARTER
The package that arrived yesterday at NBC headquarters in New York was almost immediately flagged as suspicious, because it had been mailed from Blacksburg, Va., and bore the return name A. Ishmael.

Last night, the anchor of “The NBC Nightly News,” Brian Williams, called the materials a “multimedia manifesto” and said they were mailed by Cho Seung-Hui, who has been identified as the killer of 32 people on the Virginia Tech campus.

NBC executives had no explanation for why the network was singled out to receive the package, and nothing in the materials explained the action. Nothing on the envelope or in the package cited a specific individual at NBC.

The arrival in the mailroom set in motion intense decision making, much of it directed by Steve Capus, president of NBC News.

An NBC security officer, Brian Patton, opened the package, a large-size Express Mail envelope. The package had been intended to arrive in one day, but the address was wrong. Instead of 30 Rockefeller Plaza, it was “30 Rockefeller Ave.,” and the ZIP code was wrong.

Mr. Capus said Mr. Patton and everyone else at NBC who handled the original materials wore gloves. Mr. Capus did not see the contents until after copies had been made.

“I first learned of it just before noon,” he said.

He and others at NBC saw that the envelope had been mailed from a post office in Blacksburg at 9:01 a.m. on Monday, putting Mr. Cho’s visit to the post office within the two hours between the first two killings in a dormitory and the later mass attacks in a classroom building.

NBC quickly contacted the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the state police in Virginia. Officials from the New York field office of the F.B.I. went to Rockefeller Center to pick up the originals.

Mr. Capus described the contents as one DVD disc and 23 pages of a preformatted document file with text and photographs interspersed. NBC showed many of the photos on its newscast. In the pictures, Mr. Cho poses with guns or other weapons like a knife and a hammer.

Mr. Capus said the written material was dominated by “threats and gibberish.”

“It was incredibly difficult to follow,” he added.

He said the on-camera statements were much the same. In one section, Mr. Cho referred to the gunmen in 1999 at Columbine High School in Colorado.

Nowhere did Mr. Cho refer to specific people or specific acts, Mr. Capus said. The student did not admit the killings in the dormitory and did not say he was about to go on a shooting rampage.

The details of dealing with law enforcement and trying to decide what could be used on television accounted for NBC’s not covering the story until Mr. Williams’s newscast, Mr. Capus said.

In an interview last night on MSNBC, Mr. Williams said NBC had been concerned about the sensitivities of broadcasting as much of the material as it did.

“This was a sick business tonight, going on the air with this,” he said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/19/us/19nbc.html?_r=1&hp=&oref=slogin&pagewanted=print

[strandinthewind]

More on Paula's point:

Backlash leads to pullback on Cho video By DAVID BAUDER, AP Television Writer
1 hour, 58 minutes ago



With a backlash developing against the media for airing sickening pictures from Virginia Tech shooter Cho Seung-Hui, Fox News Channel said Thursday it would stop and other networks said they would severely limit their use.

NBC News was the recipient Wednesday of Cho's package of rambling, hate-filled video and written messages, with several pictures of him posing with a gun. Contents began airing on "Nightly News," and its rivals quickly used them, too.

Family members of victims canceled plans to appear on NBC's "Today" show Thursday because they "were very upset" with the network for showing the pictures, "Today" host Meredith Vieira said.

Virginia State Police Col. Steve Flaherty — who praised NBC Wednesday for coming to authorities first with the package — said Thursday he was disappointed with what the network showed.

"I just hate that a lot of people not used to seeing that type of image had to see it," he said.

NBC said the material was aired because it helped to answer the question of why Cho killed 32 people and himself on the Virginia Tech campus Monday.

"The decision to run this video was reached by virtually every news organization in the world, as evidenced by coverage on television, on Web sites and in newspapers," NBC said in a statement. "We have covered this story — and our unique role in it — with extreme sensitivity, underscored by our devoted efforts to remember and honor the victims and heroes of this tragic incident."

NBC and its MSNBC cable outlet will "severely limit" use of these pictures going forward, "Today" host Matt Lauer said, a restriction echoed by ABC News. At both CBS News and CNN, producers will need explicit approval from their bosses to use them going forward.

Fox News announced on the air late Thursday morning that it would no longer air Cho's material, saying "sometimes you change your mind."

These decisions, of course, came more than 12 hours after the pictures became available, after they already made their impact. The news cycle dictates they would be used less, anyway.

"It has value as breaking news," said ABC News spokesman Jeffrey Schneider, "but then becomes practically pornographic as it is just repeated ad nauseam."

Jon Klein, president of CNN U.S., said the decision to air it was a tough call.

"As breaking news, it's pertinent to our understanding of why this was done," he said. "Then, once the public has seen the material and digested it, then it's fair to say, `How much should we be showing it?' I think it's to the credit of news organizations that they are dialing back."

NBC News said it had no indication why Cho chose it for his message. A Postal Service time stamp shows it was mailed at 9:01 a.m. Monday, during the two hours between his first shooting at a Virginia Tech dorm and his massacre at a classroom building.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070419/ap_en_tv/virginia_tech_nbc

[skcin]

^ To be honest, I'm a bit surprised that law enforcement officials released this stuff. What good did it do? Couldn't they have just given a written statement about it with some details about what Cho said? :shrug: Or, do a news special, so if people wanted to see it they'd have the choice. Why did the public have access to his journals? The instructors couldn't have just left it at "he wrote really sick violent stuff?"

I'm waiting for them to post his confidential mental health records next. :(

[strandinthewind]

I think the good it did was to in some eduate people to be on the look out for this pattern of activity. Maybe that way this could be prevented.

As to how to show it to the world - I am unsure. I was not opposed to releasing it on public stations. Maybe now that that is done, it should be removed or put in a sep. area for people to see it if they want to -- and they apparently do as it is still up as the most viewed on many sites.

[gldstwmn]

what is wrong with people, anyway?

The guy was a scizophrenic who wasn't on his meds.

[strandinthewind]

The guy was a scizophrenic who wasn't on his meds.

Interestingly, he likely would not have passed the legal definition of insanity so to escape the punishment for this crime. To assert insanity as a legal defense for murder, you have to establish you did not know right from wrong. Clearly he did because he chained those doors shut, mailed a video tape during the interval between the slayings, and his diatribe indicates he was doing this to get even. So, if he were alive, he'd be convicted. Personally, I am glad he is dead, and that scares me a little.

[gldstwmn]

Interestingly, he likely would not have passed the legal definition of insanity so to escape the punishment for this crime. To assert insanity as a legal defense for murder, you have to establish you did not know right from wrong. Clearly he did because he chained those doors shut, mailed a video tape during the interval between the slayings, and his diatribe indicates he was doing this to get even. So, if he were alive, he'd be convicted. Personally, I am glad he is dead, and that scares me a little.

I agree with you. It's best that he took his own life in that it spares the families of the victims the ordeal of having to relive this nightmare at trial.

[strandinthewind]

I agree with you. It's best that he took his own life in that it spares the families of the victims the ordeal of having to relive this nightmare at trial.

Or watching him assert the insanity defense and winning on it because some jury can't comprehend the confusing standard - in other words, all people who kill are likely mentally unstable, but they cannot escape the law based on that. They have to be totally unable to comprehend the difference between right and wrong. That is a very hard standard to meet and only the truly delusional can meet it. Yet, the defense pays some doctor to conclude the person meets the legal def. and a jury will consider it.

[strandinthewind]

I rarely agree with B.O -- but he makes sense here:


Video Headline: Talking Points: 4/19

Click on the URL below to watch the video:

http://www.foxnews.com/video2/launchPage.html?041907/041907_views_oreilly&Talking%20Points%3A%204/19&OReilly_Factor_Talking_Points&Should%20the%20media%20have%20run%20the%20Cho%20tape%3F&Bill%20O%27Reilly&-1&Talking%20Points%3A%204/19&Video%20Launch%20Page&Opinion

http://www.foxnews.com/video2/launchPage.html?041907/041907_views_oreilly&Talking%20Points%3A%204/19&OReilly_Factor_Talking_Points&Should%20the%20media%20have%20run%20the%20Cho%20tape%3F&Bill%20O%27Reilly&-1&Talking%20Points%3A%204/19&Video%20Launch%20Page&Opinion

[strandinthewind]

Well, now they are saying the Fed. law should have been allowed to prohibit the sale, but there was no reporting. In the end, I conclude that although reporting peoples' mental problems to a govt. agency is horrifying to me, if a judge already has ruled someone is a danger, that is a public record in a limited sense. So, I say the right to privacy is outweighed in this case by the need for public safety.
_____________________________________________

Rules Should Have Barred Weapon Purchase

Friday, April 20, 2007

By MATTHEW BARAKAT, Associated Press Writer
McLEAN, Va. —

A judge's ruling on Cho Seung-Hui's mental health should have barred him from purchasing the handguns he used in the Virginia Tech massacre, according to federal regulations. But it was unclear whether anybody had an obligation to inform federal authorities because of loopholes in the law that governs background checks.

Cho purchased two handguns in February and March, and was subject to federal and state background checks both times. The checks turned up no problems, despite a judge's ruling in December 2005 that Cho "presents an imminent danger to himself as a result of mental illness."

"On the face of it, he should have been blocked under federal law," said Denis Henigan, legal director of the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence.

The 23-year-old South Korean immigrant was evaluated by a psychiatric hospital after he was accused of stalking two women and photographing female students in class with his cell phone. His violence-filled writings were so disturbing that professors begged him to get counseling.

The language of the ruling by Special Justice Paul M. Barnett almost identically tracks federal regulations from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. Those rules bar the sale of guns to individuals who have been "adjudicated mentally defective."

The definition outlined in the regulations is "a determination by a court ... or other lawful authority that a person as a result of marked subnormal intelligence, or mental illness ... is a danger to himself or to others."

Virginia State Police send information on prohibited buyers to the federal government. They maintain that the sale was legal under state law and would have been barred only if the justice had committed Cho to a psychiatric hospital. Barnett ordered outpatient treatment instead.

The Virginia attorney general's office declined to discuss the application of gun laws to Cho's case. Barnett also declined to comment.

The state uses a slightly different standard than the federal government, barring sales to individuals who have been judged "mentally incapacitated."

George Burke, a spokesman for Democratic Rep. Carolyn McCarthy of New York, said millions of criminal and mental-health records are not accessible to the National Instant Criminal Background Check System, mostly because state and local governments lack the money to submit the records.

McCarthy has sponsored legislation since 2002 that would close loopholes in the national background check system for gun purchases.

Initially states were required to provide all relevant information to federal authorities when the instant background checks were enacted, but a U.S. Supreme Court ruling relieved them of that obligation.

"The law is very confused about this," said Richard Bonnie, a professor of law and psychiatry at the University of Virginia who heads a state commission on mental-health reform. "The source of the confusion is the relation between federal and state law."

Also Thursday, the owner of an Internet gun store based in Green Bay, Wis., told The Associated Press that Cho used his Web site to purchase one of the weapons used in the shootings. Cho paid $268 for the gun.

Eric Thompson, who runs http://www.thegunsource.com, said the Walther .22-caliber handgun was then shipped to a Virginia pawnbroker so Cho could pick it up.

Thompson said he had no idea his business was involved until he was contacted Tuesday by ATF agents.

"I just feel absolutely terrible that this tragedy even happened in the first place," he said.

www.foxnews.com