Fire Imus?

[skcin]

Imus grilled over racial comments

NEW YORK (AP) -- Don Imus had a hot seat on the other side of the microphone Monday, appearing on the Rev. Al Sharpton's radio show and enduring more criticism for his offensive comments about the Rutgers women's basketball team.

Imus issued another apology for referring to members of the team as "nappy-headed hos." Sharpton called the comments "abominable" and "racist" and repeated his demand that Imus be fired.

"Our agenda is to be funny and sometimes we go too far. And this time we went way too far," Imus said on "The Al Sharpton Show."

The meeting prompted a series of testy exchanges, and Imus grew visibly frustrated at times. During one exchange, Imus said he can't win with "you people." Sharpton was clearly irritated by that remark.

In another encounter, Sharpton said, "If you walk away from this unscathed ..."

"How am I unscathed by this?" Imus interrupted. "Don't you think I'm humiliated?"

During commercial breaks, Sharpton walked out of the studio and said few words to Imus.

Earlier Monday, on his own radio show, Imus called himself "a good person" who made a bad mistake.

"Here's what I've learned: that you can't make fun of everybody, because some people don't deserve it," he said. "And because the climate on this program has been what it's been for 30 years doesn't mean it's going to be what it's been for the next five years or whatever."

Imus said he was "embarrassed" by the remarks. He said he had made the comments in the course of "trying to be funny," but he was not trying to excuse them.

"I'm not a bad person. I'm a good person, but I said a bad thing. But these young women deserve to know it was not said with malice," he said.

He pointed to his involvement with the Imus Ranch, a cattle farm for children with cancer and blood disorders in Ribera, New Mexico. Ten percent of the children who come to the ranch are black, he added.

"I'm not a white man who doesn't know any African-Americans," he said.

On the radio show, Sharpton said that Imus' good deeds do not make up for what he said about the Rutgers team, which includes eight black women.

"This is not about whether you're a good man," Sharpton said. "What you said was racist."

Imus said he hoped to meet the players and their parents and coaches, and he said he was grateful that he was scheduled to appear on Sharpton's show.

"It's not going to be easy, but I'm not looking for it to be easy," Imus said Monday morning.

Imus made the now infamous remark during his show Wednesday.

The Rutgers team, which includes eight black women, had lost the day before in the NCAA women's championship game. Imus was speaking with producer Bernard McGuirk about the game when the exchange began on "Imus in the Morning," which is broadcast to millions of people on more than 70 stations and MSNBC.

"That's some rough girls from Rutgers," Imus said. "Man, they got tattoos ..."

"Some hardcore hos," McGuirk said.

"That's some nappy-headed hos there, I'm going to tell you that," Imus said.Imus also apologized on the air Friday, but his mea culpa has not quieted the uproar.

The Rev. Jesse Jackson and about 50 people marched Monday outside Chicago's NBC tower to protest Imus' comments, and an NAACP official called for the broadcaster's ouster.

James E. Harris, president of the New Jersey chapter of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, demanded Sunday that Imus "resign or be terminated immediately."

Allison Gollust, a spokeswoman for MSNBC, said the network considers Imus' comments "deplorable" and is reviewing the matter.

Karen Mateo, a spokeswoman for CBS Radio -- Imus' employer and the owner of his New York radio home, WFAN-AM -- said the company was "disappointed" in Imus' actions and characterized his comments as "completely inappropriate."

What he said was totally racist & inappropriate. If a TV talk show host had said that, the network would surely fire them. On the other hand - freedom of speech. Of course, even if they don't fire him, I'm sure many sponsers would flee. What do you guys think?

[strandinthewind]

I think what he said was hysterical and clearly meant in jest.

So, no, I think once he clarified it, that should be it.

Then again, I had a four foot tal, cast iron, black face lawn jockey in my yard at one point :eek:

Actually, I drove though most of the state of Louisiana with it in the front seat of my convertible with my top down and martini in hand -- good times.

On edit - it occurred to me that people may not know what a lawn jockey is - so go here http://www.lawnjock.com/ for an example of a caucasian one :cool:

[LukeA]

What he said was totally racist & inappropriate. If a TV talk show host had said that, the network would surely fire them. On the other hand - freedom of speech. Of course, even if they don't fire him, I'm sure many sponsers would flee. What do you guys think?

Let him serve his two week suspension, and let that be it. He has apologized. No sponsor is going to "flee".

Don Imus is not a racist monster- he's appreciated and respected by a wide spectrum of public and/or political figures of all races, who are coming to his defense- a fact of which is undeniable. What he said was offensive, but anyone who is so short-triggered and shortsighted to demand his firing is either an opportunistic sensationalist or, at the very least, incredibly ignorant.

[GODDESS6]

what he said was wrong, but i agree w/ jason (my grandparents had a lawn jockey) it was said in jest~ i happen to watch imus most mornings & i love that his show is somewhat unconventional & i love what he & his wife deidre i think her name is have done w/ the imus ranch & the sick children~ this morning when his show was on, he said after he aplogizes on TODAY he no longer wants to speak of it anymore & he will serve his suspension w/ dignity, but the media won't let it go~

[UnwindedDreams]

I'm so tired of this. What really got me mad was when some black guy came on Anderson Cooper and started saying if I was Imus, I would be fired cause I'm BLACK! And that Al Sharpton should be beat over the head with a stick. Let the Rutgers girls and coach deal w/ it. So no, he shouldn't be fired. It's ok when I'm called a cracker but not when he calls them what their hair style really is called. He said he was sorry and he meant it.

[Rickypt]

Well this thread is probably going to play out the same as the ching-chong thread. Basically a bunch of white people talking about how Imus' comment was funny, or meant in jest, or he's not really a racist, or how come white people can be made fun of but not black people. Undoubtedly someone will talk about how they are tired of "political correctness". In a more diverse discussion board, the conversation would go in a much different direction and probably be much more interesting.

I think the conversation is impossible to have without putting it into context; i.e., the state of race relations in the U.S., the power dynamics involved, the disproportionate impact of racially-based insults on people of color than on white people, etc.

As for the "punishment", I think a two-week suspension is lame. Either you believe his comments were unfitting of someone you want representing your station and you fire him, or you defend him and let him stay, or you don't really defend him but let him stay in the interest of freedom of speech. A "suspension" does absolutely nothing and I find it to be a pathetic way of handing this situation.

If I were in charge, I would have canned his ass. I wouldn't want to pay anyone who thinks that using racially and misogynistic terms to describe a successful women's sports team is good radio. Freedom of speech doesn't mean you have a right to be paid by others to spew your speech.

I'm rather glad that all of these events have happened recently because it really shows how far we have to go on fighting racism.

[Rickypt]

I'm so tired of this.

Don't you think black people are more tired of being the objects of racial insults? :shrug:

[ryan8472]

Who gives a ****. Just put Imus on XM Radio instead. :laugh: :nod:

[UnwindedDreams]

Don't you think black people are more tired of being the objects of racial insults? :shrug: No. How come they can call each other the N word but we can't call them that. They can call me cracker or white boy. I think they could care less about what we say in the media, they all run to asshole Sharpton cause he's got a big mouth and they know that he can use it for publicity(uproar).

[UnwindedDreams]

Who gives a ****. Just put Imus on XM Radio instead. :laugh: :nod:

Exactly. Drop this **** already.

[Rickypt]

Great opinion piece today from SF Chronicle sports columnist Gwen Knapp:

Women need to raise voices on Imus insult

Gwen Knapp

Tuesday, April 10, 2007

Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson have made their plays against Don Imus. Now it's time for women to get into the game.

So far, Imus' incendiary comments about the Rutgers women's basketball team have burned him only because of the racially repulsive element. He was suspended Monday for calling the players "nappy-headed ho's" last week after the national championship game, in which Rutgers lost to Tennessee. Sharpton and Jackson called for his dismissal. People everywhere retched.

Imus said Monday, in another fruitless apology, that he had gone too far. One has to wonder, though, how many words he would take back if he could. Had he just said "ho's," stripping away the most blatant racism, would his career be in jeopardy now?

The misogyny in his remarks has been downplayed for a lot of reasons. For starters, there are no women with the brand of clout wielded by a Jackson or Sharpton. The two reverends do what women wouldn't dare. They scare people. They don't back down, because they're playing to win, not to be liked.

Alexis Gray-Lawson, a sophomore on the Cal basketball team, heard about the remarks from her teammates and then read more online. "It brings up so many issues of racism, and I thought we were done with that,'' she said. "It was kind of a slap in the face.''

As a women's basketball player, though, she wasn't surprised that Imus had insulted the femininity of the Rutgers team. She knew we weren't done with that.

Nobody has rebelled enough. The most prominent women in this country -- Hillary Clinton, Nancy Pelosi, Condoleezza Rice -- work as insiders, walking the corridors of power rather than kicking down doors. They could take on Imus. They could react as if the Rutgers women were their little sisters, but then they'd risk losing public support in his audience. Worse, that would be considered shrill, strident, and so terribly, unforgivably unattractive.

Ultimately, that's what holds back women. It keeps them from standing up for themselves and for each other. Somebody might question their femininity.

That's exactly why Imus and his producer went too far. Most of their conversation dwelled on comparing the "cute" Tennessee players to the more rugged Rutgers team. For the record, both rosters contain a majority of African American players, so the radio exchange wasn't as simple as black and white. It was about who could "pass" as part of mainstream culture.

Discussing that in racial terms is a known taboo. Applying the standards to powerful women is almost a reflex, particularly in the sports world. If Imus felt safe that day, it's because he thought he was only splitting women into two camps.

The best thing women can do now is emphasize that they don't want to be divided. If they're competing, it's not for acceptance, and when they play basketball, they're not conducting a simultaneous beauty pageant.

Gray-Lawson thinks the Tennessee women should be offended by the remarks, too, because casting them as the pretty team demeans their national title. "When men play, people will talk about them being aggressive going to the basket,'' she said. "Women just want the same respect.''

She is a wise young woman. She knows that Imus and his ilk, for all their claims of boldness, expect her to conform, conform, conform.

"Everybody wants to look like the glamour girl, and the thing about basketball is it's a release from all of that," she said. "Or it should be a release from all that, all the worries you go through your entire life like that, to the point where you're able to be just yourself. When you're not able to be yourself, I think that kind of changes the game for a lot of women. And when you have to look a certain way to play basketball, you can't be yourself."

It's a relief to hear a young woman speak that way, and sad to realize that a lot of us give up on those ideals. We get tired of fighting. We want to fit in. We let men be gentlemen and fight for us, and they usually deliver. But we have to do more.

I admit I didn't want to deal with this issue at first. Among other things, I didn't want to type the words "nappy-headed ho's" and have them appear under my column mug. I didn't care to bring more attention to Imus, either.

But the whole thing festered, and then I remembered the way I felt when an Imus sidekick said something almost as ugly about tennis' Williams sisters a few years ago. I was disgusted, but I let it go. A lot of people did.

The Rutgers remark seemed to be a product of that apathy. We have allowed our culture to become so coarse that what once passed for satire had morphed into a verbal assault on eight college students.

Gray-Lawson expressed things perfectly when she said: "I don't know how anyone can talk that way about someone else's child. It's just cruel."

She's right. This goes beyond a racial or gender issue. It's a matter of decency that needs to be attacked from all angles. The National Organization for Women joined the fray, but individual women with star power have stayed silent. They need to get off the bench and start taking their shots.

E-mail Gwen Knapp at [email protected].

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/04/10/SPGMDP5OAQ1.DTL

[sara1998]

Who gives a ****. Just put Imus on XM Radio instead. :laugh: :nod:

Seriously. No one ever came to defend me in Jr. High when I was the white minority in a 90% black school. No one took up for the little white girl who was left to fend for herself. Racism goes both ways.

[strandinthewind]

Don't you think black people are more tired of being the objects of racial insults? :shrug:

They use the same terminology to refer to themselves. So, I say do as I say and not as I do is utter BS. They are their worse enemy in that regard - well that and the violence that has plagued the black community for years.

So, what is the answer? How do we as a society solve that? I think there is a way through education. Welfare in its current form certainly is not working :shrug:

ANyway - same old rehash I guess of prior threads.

[strandinthewind]

Seriously. No one ever came to defend me in Jr. High when I was the white minority in a 90% black school. No one took up for the little white girl who was left to fend for herself. Racism goes both ways.

Careful - you will be branded as anti-black and a racist for that comment. White people can never make any factual comment that slights blacks - don't you know that silly.

Again, I fully realize the system in palce is not working, but how to solve this issue, I have know clue. Personally, I think you have to be willing to help yourself. Welfare is a helping tool, not a permanent residence. Many people get off of it and get out of the ghetto. So, I guess they should be used as a model for what works. But, this idea that the govt. owes you a lifelong paycheck and you never have to work is crap.

Note - I fully get that not all welfare rec. are life longers and/or multi-generational rec. I am not talking about those people and believe me they exist and it is not just the black people, though there seem to be a lot of them that fit that mold from what I have seen. I am talking solely about the ones who refuse to work. Please make that distiction in any reply.

[skcin]

I started the thread before they announced his suspension. I think it's appropriate. I did literally gasp when I read what he had said, but he explained himself, apologized & is taking his suspension without argument. So, what's done is done & if people don't want to listen to him anymore, then don't. :shrug:

[estranged4life]

I actually laughed when I heard what he said.

Race issues in this country will never be solved - that's why I stay the hell outta those issues (ie-The Freedman vs. The Cherokee Nation issue here in OK, I see both sides of that issue and even though I am Cherokee, I stayed the hell outta that mess).

Maybe because I live in a state where the Indians tribes (I wont use the term "Native American" when I refer to myself since I feel anyone born in the US is a native to this country) are considered the majority and the whites/blacks/everyone else are considered the minority has something to do with that :shrug:

[sara1998]

Careful - you will be branded as anti-black and a racist for that comment. White people can never make any factual comment that slights blacks - don't you know that silly.

heh, yeah... so let it be...

I learned to live as the minority. I have absolutely nothing against blacks, or other races. If anything, it helped me learn to be more accepting of other races and cultures. However, there are some (Sharpton, Jackson) who think they have to scream racism at the white folks every whem. It's sickening. If I screamed racism at the schools I attended, I would be told to sit down and shut up.

Imus got a suspension. That's enough.

[TwistedGypsy]

I'm with Ryan who gives a ****. Second of all I wonder if he had made a reference that can sometimes describe a Polish person or Italian or Irish if everyone would still have their panties in a wad?
Joy Baher made a good point on The View today. Does Al Sharpton ever come down on rappers for some of the language in their songs? Most rap songs are about ho's, ****ing ho's, guns, tryin' to survive in the ghetto etc., etc. He needs to be worried about the "influential" people in his own race and the affect they have on the younger generation.
Clearly just my opinion though.

[Sarah]

Who gives a ****. Just put Imus on XM Radio instead. :laugh: :nod:

F that. Sirius is soooo much better. :)

[strandinthewind]

Actually, I believe Al S. and Jeese J. called for a 100% prohibition of the N word after the Seinfeld comic's eposiode. So, they have done that.

[skcin]

I'm with Ryan who gives a ****. Second of all I wonder if he had made a reference that can sometimes describe a Polish person or Italian or Irish if everyone would still have their panties in a wad?
Joy Baher made a good point on The View today. Does Al Sharpton ever come down on rappers for some of the language in their songs? Most rap songs are about ho's, ****ing ho's, guns, tryin' to survive in the ghetto etc., etc. He needs to be worried about the "influential" people in his own race and the affect they have on the younger generation. Clearly just my opinion though.


Well, Bill Cosby dared to say something to that effect. People were none too pleased.

[Rickypt]

Careful - you will be branded as anti-black and a racist for that comment. White people can never make any factual comment that slights blacks - don't you know that silly.

We know that white people get away with making a bunch of comments and actions that do a lot more than slight blacks.

Personally, I think you have to be willing to help yourself.

I agree. The irony that I see is that these Rutgers basketball players were doing just that--helping themselves, trying to be what is acceptable in society, and probably received no more of a handout than any white college athlete. And yet they still got slammed with racial insults--not only did they get singled out for being black, but for being REALLY black, hence the nappy-headed reference.

[Rickypt]

Anyone catch the Rutgers team press conference? I thought they handled the whole thing with grace and dignity. They are hurt and offended, as they should be, and have agreed to meet privately with Imus but won't disclose when or where.

[strandinthewind]

We know that white people get away with making a bunch of comments and actions that do a lot more than slight blacks . . . .

Very true - but I was not talking about those people. I was talking about the comment she made, which many would take a horribly racist. I think that is stupid.

In the end, the black people are just going to have to figure out a way to better themselves because depending on the govt. to do it has pretty much been a failure (though it worked for many) -- I think education is the key.

[strandinthewind]

Anyone catch the Rutgers team press conference? I thought they handled the whole thing with grace and dignity. They are hurt and offended, as they should be, and have agreed to meet privately with Imus but won't disclose when or where.

After like 20 minutes of that woman droning on, I turned it off -- too many words.

[Rickypt]

Strand, you and I actually agree on this stuff more than it seems. The "system" stuff. I agree that education is the key. Which is why I find it even more egregious that here are young black women going to college and they still get slammed with a racial insult. That is what I find so bothersome about this whole ordeal.

[The Tower]

Strand, you and I actually agree on this stuff more than it seems. The "system" stuff.
I think we all agree on that part.

However, people need to remember that the civil rights "movement" really only got started (implementation-wise) in the late 1960's. I think it's going to take a little bit longer than 40 years to reverse 300+ years of actively and doggedly holding back an entire segment of the population from life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

[Rickypt]

I think we all agree on that part.

However, people need to remember that the civil rights "movement" really only got started (implementation-wise) in the late 1960's. I think it's going to take a little bit longer than 40 years to reverse 300+ years of actively and doggedly holding back an entire segment of the population from life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

YES

Goddamn, I love your posts.

[GateandGarden]

Well, Bill Cosby dared to say something to that effect. People were none too pleased.I thought his speech was riddled with prejudiced remarks and oversimplifications (more of the latter, really). He wasn't helping anything from my point of view, just showing that he was less in-touch than I had assumed.

[GateandGarden]

... I was talking about the comment she made, which many would take a horribly racist. I think that is stupid.I agree that it would be ridiculous to consider any of her posts in this thread to be racist, but I'd sing a different tune in reference to some of your comments.

[skcin]

I thought his speech was riddled with prejudiced remarks and oversimplifications (more of the latter, really). He wasn't helping anything from my point of view, just showing that he was less in-touch than I had assumed.


Really? I disagree. I mean, to a point, I guess it is easy for him to say these things, being a rich man. But I think his basic message of take responsibility for your own actions & actively raise your kids is a good one.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A6615-2004Sep8.html

[GateandGarden]

Really? I disagree. I mean, to a point, I guess it is easy for him to say these things, being a rich man. But I think his basic message of take responsibility for your own actions & actively raise your kids is a good one.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A6615-2004Sep8.htmlI do agree with the message for the most part; I should've clarified. But I really don't agree with this idea he has that his race should take full responsibility and the white world is in no way to blame for the problems they face. I thought it was petty to carry on about people using lots of slang, and especially goofy how he poked fun at people for having what he deemed unusual names. So much of it came off as judgmental to me; I don't how much of it was meant in jest because I didn't actually hear it, but I doubt that would make it okay to me if it were in jest.

[skcin]

^ Gotcha. I see what you mean, I didn't realize that he had said all of the problems with the black community were all their own fault.

[GateandGarden]

^ Gotcha. I see what you mean, I didn't realize that he had said all of the problems with the black community were all their own fault.Yeah...I had a printout of the whole thing at one point, and we were debating all of it at work, but I can't find it now. Like I said, he had some good points, but they were overshadowed by the stuff that I found offensive.

[strandinthewind]

Strand, you and I actually agree on this stuff more than it seems. The "system" stuff. I agree that education is the key. Which is why I find it even more egregious that here are young black women going to college and they still get slammed with a racial insult. That is what I find so bothersome about this whole ordeal.

I know we agree!

As for the slamming - I think Imus meant it as a joke. I do not think he was being mean. Thus, I think the two weeks along with the apology and the metting is cool.

I think it would have been a far better move for the girls in college to have sent him a letter signed by all detailing their accomplishments, past, etc. I think their message would get across better that way than through the mouth of Rev. Al, who most people think is full of bull, which is mostly misguided IMO.

[strandinthewind]

I think we all agree on that part.

However, people need to remember that the civil rights "movement" really only got started (implementation-wise) in the late 1960's. I think it's going to take a little bit longer than 40 years to reverse 300+ years of actively and doggedly holding back an entire segment of the population from life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Huge strides have been made :shrug:

But, my point is that punsihing white people for slavery in this day and age is not the right route to go. Two wrongs do not make a right IMO. Also, the current welfare system perpetuates fraud and the need to think you have to work for a living. I know not all people on welfare are not like that, but many are. That needs to be fixed no matter how many slaves my great great great great grandfather owned :shrug:

But, the D's will never allow welfare reform because they need the black vote to win. ANd, the R's will never allow welfare reform because they need to point to the lazy black people (their words) to win the white vote. Such is politics and that to me is pathetic.

[Rickypt]

I think it would have been a far better move for the girls in college to have sent him a letter signed by all detailing their accomplishments, past, etc. I think their message would get across better that way than through the mouth of Rev. Al, who most people think is full of bull, which is mostly misguided IMO.

I don't think the team had much of a say about Sharpton/Jackson. Those guys are going to do their thing no matter what. I'm not a big fan of them anymore (used to be), but it's not my community so I don't feel like I can decide who their leaders should be.

I thought the team did a beautiful job at the press conference. I know it was long, but it was really powerful and explained how personally hurtful the comments were. It was full of grace and didn't get into the whole demand for Imus to be fired. I'm really impressed with them, especially their coach.

[strandinthewind]

. . . but I'd sing a different tune in reference to some of your comments.

Then you'd be incorrect.

I have specifically said it is not just a black problem and certainly not all black and other people on welfare are keen on staying on it.

I also said that until black people stop isuing the word "nigger" in reference to themselves, the word will get perpetuated.

If I said anything different to the point where you could call me a racist, which I define as someone who hates or discrimmintates based on race, let's see it.

Otherwise, I'll thank you in advance not to call me a racist.

[strandinthewind]

^ Gotcha. I see what you mean, I didn't realize that he had said all of the problems with the black community were all their own fault.

I think he is accurate in that many of the problems (violence, drugs, unwanted pregancies, etc. ) are the fault of the black community. I think the kids see their parents engaing in that behaviour and think it is okay - again this is not all balck people.

I think education is the way out. Well, that and two cops on every corner in the projects.

To be fair, many black people feel like the system is stacked against them, so why not commit a crime. They are correct to a point about the system. However, their own actions perpetuate that system. It is a never ending cycle - that is what Bill C. was saying IMO. So, they have to be willing to stop the bad behav. before they will get better. And -- this logic applies to poor people of al races too, as certainly they are oppressed by society.

In the end, no one owes you (general) a damn thing other than basic human courtesy. You have to go out and get it for yourself. This why I think welfare should be based on poverty, not race. I think welfare should be geared more toward the rec. looking for work. But, saying that in public is the same as saying I hate black people - at least as far as politicians go.

[strandinthewind]

I don't think the team had much of a say about Sharpton/Jackson. Those guys are going to do their thing no matter what. I'm not a big fan of them anymore (used to be), but it's not my community so I don't feel like I can decide who their leaders should be.

I thought the team did a beautiful job at the press conference. I know it was long, but it was really powerful and explained how personally hurtful the comments were. It was full of grace and didn't get into the whole demand for Imus to be fired. I'm really impressed with them, especially their coach.

Yea - she was eloquent. But, I have a five minute rule on speeches :laugh:

[estranged4life]

Man, Y'all should live here in Oklahoma, you'd see some racist **** (Yes, some still burn crosses in yards here - stupid I know).

Right now, the latest controversy is still the Freedman vs.the Cherokee Nation. Now the Oklahoma Black Caucus is calling for its members to not vote for ANY Democrat in upcoming elections since the Democratic Gov.Brad Henry & his staff members, had a luncheon with the Cherokee Prinicipal Chief Chad Smith days after the election was held to decide if the Freedman would be removed from the tribe (It passed by 76%).

[The Tower]

Huge strides have been made :shrug:
Not nearly enough, IMO.

But, my point is that punsihing white people for slavery in this day and age is not the right route to go. Two wrongs do not make a right IMO.
I never said, nor inferred, that "whites need to be punished". I think there is a lot more time needed to repair the damage that happened, that's all. It's very naive for anyone in 2007 to think that "everything is okay now" and that there is a level playing field for black Americans. Whether or not the current solutions have merit is a different conversation and the two are not necessarily related.

Also, the current welfare system perpetuates fraud and the need to think you have to work for a living. I know not all people on welfare are not like that, but many are. That needs to be fixed no matter how many slaves my great great great great grandfather owned :shrug:
Apples and oranges.

The current tax system perpetuates fraud and those with a lot of money need to understand that they shouldn't try to rip off the government. I know not all wealthy people are not like that, but many are. That needs to be fixed no matter how many slaves your great, great, great, great, grandfather owned :shrug: .

[strandinthewind]

Oh - I agree the current tax system is the stupidest thing I have ever seen. I think people who make under $30,000 a year should pay no Fed Income Tax and then the scale should slide up to where people making $40,000 pay 15% with no deductions. We would be the richest nation in the world if we did that. Well, that and cut out the BS spending. I think many more people would not mind paying 30% of their income if they thought the govt. was not perpetuating poverty with that money, buying $45 screws, paying Halliburton exec bonuses, etc.

But, that has nothing to do with the generations of black people on welfare. It exists - I know because I have seen it with my own peepers. I get that it is not all black people and probably not even most (and other races certainly do it too) - but even one family of any race is too much. That money could be feeding someone who deserves it based on poverty, not race. Yet, many consider me a racist for saying that. How what I am proposing is unfair, I will never know?

As for the strides, when is it enough? When are white people done paying. I say paying because minority contracts are favored even if the cost is more and the workmanship shoddy. How is that fair or paying anyone back or compensating anything?

As for racism, I think it is very difficult to gevern what people think. I think education (public and at home) is the key. I agree that will take many more decades, which I suggest would be lessened if the black community was perceived as far less violent and willing to help themselves. Right or wrong, that is how most people (including many black people I know who got out of the gehetto) perceive ghetto life. Until that changes, all the favorite treatment of minority businesses based on black history is only going to cause resentment. How could it not.

[markolas]

Ed Schultz (whom I like less every time I listen to him) was going on and on and on about this today. Imus' comments were obviously meant in jest and were not some racist tirade. I'm a little taken aback (and I probably shouldn't be) by the reaction of Sharpton, et al. You can't create a culture where this kind of language is acceptable and then get this up in arms when someone says something like what Imus said.

This is how kids of all races talk. "Whassup my niggaz," "I'm gonna slap that bitch-ass ho," etc. They do it because it's hip, and that's why Imus did it - he thought he was being hip or cute or whatever. Sharpton and Jackson need to direct their ire at the culture, not at Don Imus.

As far as income tax goes, $30,000 a year is nothing. If you took 15% of that out of my check, I could live on it but it would be a very bare-bones lifestyle I'd be living. And I'm just talking about supporting myself. If I had any dependents to support, it would be impossible. How about no income tax for anyone who makes less than $100k, and then taking 25% of those who make $100k or more?

[strandinthewind]

No human being should ever have to pay 25% of what they make so some a$$hole in D.C. can line his pockets and pockets of his cronies. And - it would not be 15% at 30K -- it would adjust from say 30-40K so that the minute you hit 30,500 you were not taxed at 15% - thus making less than 30,000 a year.

And, I will never agree that only people who make 100,000 a year or more should be taxed. To me, that is punitive.

Actually, I think the so called fair tax is much fairer than any percentage of income. That way, every hooker, stipper, waiter, etc. on mostly cash basis has to pay their fair share. I know strippers who make over $200,000 a year in cash. They pay no or very little tax. How fukced up is that.

Anyway, here is a link to the so called fair tax, which is really a retail sales tax with a few twists to help out the poor.

http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer

I know I am fighting a losing battle here though because almost everyone here think that if you make $100,000 a year or more, you should pay half of that to help the so called poor by giving the money to the oh so efficient govt. and entrusting them to see that said so called poor get it :laugh: (said tongue in cheek)

As for Imus, I agree. I think he thought he was being hip and he crossed that white people do as I say but not as I do line. Personally, I think he should have been smarter than that.

[Für Elise]

Not nearly enough, IMO.


I never said, nor inferred, that "whites need to be punished". I think there is a lot more time needed to repair the damage that happened, that's all. It's very naive for anyone in 2007 to think that "everything is okay now" and that there is a level playing field for black Americans. Whether or not the current solutions have merit is a different conversation and the two are not necessarily related.
if anyone thinks that todays problems with minority groups that were enslaved or completely neglected in past has nothing to do with there problems now is just as stupid as 10 year old. like there needs to be a direct link of cause and effect in one single generation for the cause of the problem to be seen :rolleyes:

theres nothing more annoying that someone who keeps talkingabout how wealthy they are (not talking about hte person i quoted) and how educated they are and how many nice hotels and fancy products they have, talking about taking welfare from the poorest communities to teach them to stand on there own two feet. just makes me want to punch that person. if you dont understand the cycle then you can't be that smart and just saying "oh honey........(something about being a lawyer)" doesn't cut it. you're just an ignorant fool.

[strandinthewind]

if anyone thinks that todays problems with minority groups that were enslaved or completely neglected in past has nothing to do with there problems now is just as stupid as 10 year old. like there needs to be a direct link of cause and effect in one single generation for the cause of the problem to be seen :rolleyes:

theres nothing more annoying that someone who keeps talkingabout how wealthy they are (not talking about hte person i quoted) and how educated they are and how many nice hotels and fancy products they have, talking about taking welfare from the poorest communities to teach them to stand on there own two feet. just makes me want to punch that person. if you dont understand the cycle then you can't be that smart and just saying "oh honey........(something about being a lawyer)" doesn't cut it. you're just an ignorant fool.

If you had bothered to ask me instead of attacking me, I would have told you this is how I know what I have seen:

I tutored minority (all black) children from the projects after school. Their parent or grand parent (none I tutored had a father that lived with them and many did not know who the father was) would thank me, cook for me, and do all these things out of gratitude for someone who took the time and effort to help them. These were people who were maids in the morning and worked in fast food rest. and the like until about 6:00 p.m. They could not afford day care and the state one was a war zone. So, this group formed many years ago to help them out and educate their kids, a deal lacking in the public school system. When they would bring me a home made pie or fried chicken I would cry because I knew they had taken $10.00 out of their day’s wages (about three hours worth to be exact) to honor the advantage I was giving their children to get out the projects. I wanted to refuse such gifts, but to do so would have offended them to no end. My volunteer work included being in the projects, which were essentially a war zone in New Orleans. I think that because of the good work my group was doing, we were left alone. Believe me when I tell you, I saw things that no human should ever see. I also saw these other adults doing nothing to get out of the welfare cycle they were on and doing nothing to get their kids into our program, which was easy to enter – all they had to do was sign up. Some of that resistance was because we were white – how pathetic is that? Further, the parents who participated in our program had nothing but contempt for the people who did nothing to ensure their children got the hell out of there. I will never forget one grandmother slapping her grandson across the face in front of me and telling him that unless he listened to me, he would wind up in jail just like his father and his grandfather (her husband) and her. When you see that, you are humbled to say the least. There are countless other experiences I could relate - but I think these suffice so you get my drift. I realize my experience was a small example, but my group was national and every other group had similar experiences. So, I think my rationale is supported by my experience, which again is that many people are trying to get off the public tit, but many are content to stay there. A review of my comments above in this thread and other threads will reveal I spoke poorly only of the latter and lauded the former - indeed I suggested the former be used as role models to fix the system that I think most everyone agrees is not working.

I also have worked in soup kitchens to feed the poor and infirm. This included preparing/packaging several hundred meals a day. I did it on Sat. and Sun. mornings (essentially my only down time) with a group of volunteers. I also spent time with these people when I delivered food to them. Almost all were on govt. aid of some sort and they told me their stories of how to fool the system. To be fair, many of these people had terminal illnesses.

Finally, I have donated, time, food, money, and clothing to charities to the point where I have won awards for organizing fund raisers and charity drives. Many of the people helping me in these were the poor people we were trying to raise money for. They were all good, honest, creative people who were openly working hard to change the stereotype of the multi-generational welfare moms that they knew were out there. They had nothing but bad things to say about these welfare multi-generational families. I think it is safe to say I have directly helped raise with various groups well over $500,000 for the poor and/or infirm.

So those examples (I have done way more) essentially are how I formed my opinions.

So, while you obviously picture me with venom and contempt enough to call me an “ignorant fool” and want to punch me - I thought you might like to know how I got my perspective.

What have you personally done for the poor to get your perspective?

On another note, the American Civil Rights movement was formed to right the wrongs of the past. That is why I and Tower said that. Moreover, I certainly agree with Tower's statement that no current playing field currently exists and that racism is still apparent. I never said anything to the contrary. If I did, please quote it. I was just saying things have vastly improved since 1964, when blacks and whites were not allowed to drink out of the same water fountains. Tower agreed with this. So, please stop putting words in my and apparently Tower's mouth.

[Für Elise]

If you had bothered to ask me instead of attacking me, I would have told you this is how I know what I have seen:

I tutored minority (all black) children from the projects after school. Their parent or grand parent (none I tutored had a father that lived with them and many did not know who the father was) would thank me, cook for me, and do all these things out of gratitude for someone who took the time and effort to help them. These were people who were maids in the morning and worked in fast food rest. and the like until about 6:00 p.m. They could not afford day care and the state one was a war zone. So, this group formed many years ago to help them out and educate their kids, a deal lacking in the public school system. When they would bring me a home made pie or fried chicken I would cry because I knew they had taken $10.00 out of their day’s wages (about three hours worth to be exact) to honor the advantage I was giving their children to get out the projects. I wanted to refuse such gifts, but to do so would have offended them to no end. My volunteer work included being in the projects, which were essentially a war zone in New Orleans. I think that because of the good work my group was doing, we were left alone. Believe me when I tell you, I saw things that no human should ever see. I also saw these other adults doing nothing to get out of the welfare cycle they were on and doing nothing to get their kids into our program, which was easy to enter – all they had to do was sign up. Some of that resistance was because we were white – how pathetic is that? Further, the parents who participated in our program had nothing but contempt for the people who did nothing to ensure their children got the hell out of there. I will never forget one grandmother slapping her grandson across the face in front of me and telling him that unless he listened to me, he would wind up in jail just like his father and his grandfather (her husband) and her. When you see that, you are humbled to say the least. There are countless other experiences I could relate - but I think these suffice so you get my drift. I realize my experience was a small example, but my group was national and every other group had similar experiences. So, I think my rationale is supported by my experience, which again is that many people are trying to get off the public tit, but many are content to stay there. A review of my comments above in this thread and other threads will reveal I spoke poorly only of the latter and lauded the former - indeed I suggested the former be used as role models to fix the system that I think most everyone agrees is not working.

I also have worked in soup kitchens to feed the poor and infirm. This included preparing/packaging several hundred meals a day. I did it on Sat. and Sun. mornings (essentially my only down time) with a group of volunteers. I also spent time with these people when I delivered food to them. Almost all were on govt. aid of some sort and they told me their stories of how to fool the system. To be fair, many of these people had terminal illnesses.

Finally, I have donated, time, food, money, and clothing to charities to the point where I have won awards for organizing fund raisers and charity drives. Many of the people helping me in these were the poor people we were trying to raise money for. They were all good, honest, creative people who were openly working hard to change the stereotype of the multi-generational welfare moms that they knew were out there. They had nothing but bad things to say about these welfare multi-generational families. I think it is safe to say I have directly helped raise with various groups well over $500,000 for the poor and/or infirm.

So those examples (I have done way more) essentially are how I formed my opinions.

So, while you obviously picture me with venom and contempt enough to call me an “ignorant fool” and want to punch me - I thought you might like to know how I got my perspective.

What have you personally done for the poor to get your perspective?

On another note, the American Civil Rights movement was formed to right the wrongs of the past. That is why I and Tower said that. A brief google search will confirm what I say.

la la la. so you've seen things. so have many of us. that doesn't mean that you arent still ignorant about how the cycle causes the minorities to be in this position. what you have seen has nothing to do with any of this you still are acting as though they get themselves into this situation.

you want to talk about the poor? i've spent holidaying time in india and spent a lot of time with untouchables in bangalore not cause i went to be a humanitarian just cause i was there and found myself spending time there. and i know what its like when they give you a some piece of string made to look like a necklace to say thankyou cause its the only thing they can offer but they still do. i lived in belfast in the late 90s so you want to tell me about a warzone! and i briefly lived in kenya and just cause your the white rich ones doesn't mean you don't see everything. and i recently helped at an aboriginal medical center in the northern territory and if youve been there you'd know how those people are erased from the cencus they just don't exist for the australian government. theres lots of stuff I could talk about and say thats how i get my perspective but it doesn't matter if your talking about poor minorities not wanting to get themselves out of there situation and acting as though they put themselves there. you could have been brought up on the streets but if you said those same things youd still be ignorant about the situation

[Rickypt]

Ed Schultz (whom I like less every time I listen to him) was going on and on and on about this today. Imus' comments were obviously meant in jest and were not some racist tirade. I'm a little taken aback (and I probably shouldn't be) by the reaction of Sharpton, et al. You can't create a culture where this kind of language is acceptable and then get this up in arms when someone says something like what Imus said.

This is how kids of all races talk. "Whassup my niggaz," "I'm gonna slap that bitch-ass ho," etc. They do it because it's hip, and that's why Imus did it - he thought he was being hip or cute or whatever. Sharpton and Jackson need to direct their ire at the culture, not at Don Imus.



Imus isn't a kid. And the ones who were offended were the women on the basketball team. I recommend taking some time to get past the Sharpton/Jackson piece of this story and read what was said by the women.

[strandinthewind]

la la la. so you've seen things. so have many of us. that doesn't mean that you arent still ignorant about how the cycle causes the minorities to be in this position. what you have seen has nothing to do with any of this you still are acting as though they get themselves into this situation.

you want to talk about the poor? i've spent holidaying time in india and spent a lot of time with untouchables in bangalore not cause i went to be a humanitarian just cause i was there and found myself spending time there. and i know what its like when they give you a some piece of string made to look like a necklace to say thankyou cause its the only thing they can offer but they still do. i lived in belfast in the late 90s so you want to tell me about a warzone! and i briefly lived in kenya and just cause your the white rich ones doesn't mean you don't see everything. and i recently helped at an aboriginal medical center in the northern territory and if youve been there you'd know how those people are erased from the cencus they just don't exist for the australian government. theres lots of stuff I could talk about and say thats how i get my perspective but it doesn't matter if your talking about poor minorities not wanting to get themselves out of there situation and acting as though they put themselves there. you could have been brought up on the streets but if you said those same things youd still be ignorant about the situation

I am glad you did these honorable things.

But and to the point, of course I can comment on what I have seen and relay the stories that the people in the situations told me. Have I ever been there myself - no I have not. But, that is hardly the point when I am saying that I saw people unwilling to pull themselves out of their situation and even more unwilling to educate their kids so they could get out - and heard the perspective of people who were doing things to better their children and the contempt they, not I, had for those people and their lack of motivation. I think you think that if a person is not from that, then they have right to comment on it. I think that is illogical.

Moreover, I think you think I am saying something to the effect of "let them eat cake" -- none of my posts even remotely suggested that position. Rather, I have consistently explained that there are people on welfare unwilling to get off of it and it is a problem in the system that needs to be fixed. For anyone to suggest that there are no people content to stay in the system because they do not have to work for their living is ignoring reality.

As for the cycles that keep them there - I think it is too simplistic to suggest that they are helpless - I think my position is supported by the people who are able to get out of the system. They apparently are able to break the cycle :shrug: That is why I said they and what they did should be used as a way to overhaul the system.

[markolas]

Imus isn't a kid. And the ones who were offended were the women on the basketball team. I recommend taking some time to get past the Sharpton/Jackson piece of this story and read what was said by the women.

If any of those women had even heard of Don Imus before this incident, I will eat a basketball.

[GODDESS6]

If any of those women had even heard of Don Imus before this incident, I will eat a basketball.

:lol: :eek: :lol: :lol:

[strandinthewind]

If any of those women had even heard of Don Imus before this incident, I will eat a basketball.

I know.

I read today where Imus lost s few large sponsors like Staples.

Hopefully, he learned his lesson and will watch what he says from now on.

[sara1998]

I guess what gets me about the whole thing is that Imus didn't say anything worse than 90% of the rappers out there... and no one's calling for the rappers to be fired....:shrug:

It's all entertainment, right?

[skcin]

Of course, even if they don't fire him, I'm sure many sponsers would flee.

Let him serve his two week suspension, and let that be it. He has apologized. No sponsor is going to "flee".



I know.

I read today where Imus lost s few large sponsors like Staples.

Hopefully, he learned his lesson and will watch what he says from now on.

Just had to point this out.

I guess what gets me about the whole thing is that Imus didn't say anything worse than 90% of the rappers out there... and no one's calling for the rappers to be fired....:shrug:

It's all entertainment, right?

The way I see it is that those rappers are referring to actual bitches & ho's. :lol: I mean, it sounds silly, but when they're rapping, you know damn well they're not referring to teachers or nurses or lawyers or whoever. They're referring to party girls, groupies, the easy girl from the neighborhood,etc.

Now. Imus said what he did about smart, well educated successful female athletes. They are beautiful & poised & well spoken (from what I saw of the news conference.) Referring to them as "nappy headed ho's" implies that no matter what they do, how much education they get, how well dressed they are, how successful they are, they're still nothing because they're black, or poor, or whatever. I'm not saying that's what he meant, but I can easily see that it was construed that way.

If it were me, and I were busting my ass to make something of myself and break down stereotypes and be a great role model for young girls, I'm be hurt & upset & pissed off if I felt that my accomplishments were being overlooked & I was being stereotyped because of my race.

[WildHeart69]

if Howard Stern had said this (pre-sirius) would anyone have cared?? No... not that I am defending him or think it was ok to say... I just think that Sharpton and Jackson are the ones who blow things out of proportion in so many cases.

[bikerchic]

"Nappy headed ho's". Brilliant. That's my new favourite saying. I called both my kids that this morning when they got out of bed. They just woke from a long "nap" and their hair was all messy. It just seemed appropriate :D

[skcin]

if Howard Stern had said this (pre-sirius) would anyone have cared?? No... not that I am defending him or think it was ok to say... I just think that Sharpton and Jackson are the ones who blow things out of proportion in so many cases.

Oh, I think people would have cared. They bitched about him saying & doing lesser things than this. I doubt Howard would have used the term in reference to this BBall team though - he would have had a bunch of dirty strippers on the Simmeon & called them that. :laugh:

BTW - hubby was listening to Howard & at first, Howard said he didn't think Imus should be fired, then he wasn't sure. Of course, he hates Imus so he's not exactly impartial. He def. thinks Sharpton & the like should butt out.

"Nappy headed ho's". Brilliant. That's my new favourite saying. I called both my kids that this morning when they got out of bed. They just woke from a long "nap" and their hair was all messy. It just seemed appropriate :D

It is bound to become part of our vocabulary - ala' Sugar Tits. :D

[TwistedGypsy]

I'm curious about something. I didn't get to watch the Rutgers speech but did any of the white female players say anything? I wonder if they were offended?

[skcin]

I'm curious about something. I didn't get to watch the Rutgers speech but did any of the white female players say anything? I wonder if they were offended?

Yes, they did and yes, they were. Said it took away from their accomplishments as a team.

[strandinthewind]

I think I may refer to Theresa and Paula as suger teets from this moment on - they may feel free (LORD CHILD) to refer to me as a nappy headed hoe.

:cool:

[sara1998]

I think I may refer to Theresa and Paula as suger teets from this moment on - they may feel free (LORD CHILD) to refer to me as a nappy headed hoe.

:cool:

I want to refer to you as nappy headed hoe too.....

I think I will.

[The Tower]

Now. Imus said what he did about smart, well educated successful female athletes. They are beautiful & poised & well spoken (from what I saw of the news conference.) Referring to them as "nappy headed ho's" implies that no matter what they do, how much education they get, how well dressed they are, how successful they are, they're still nothing because they're black, or poor, or whatever. I'm not saying that's what he meant, but I can easily see that it was construed that way.

If it were me, and I were busting my ass to make something of myself and break down stereotypes and be a great role model for young girls, I'm be hurt & upset & pissed off if I felt that my accomplishments were being overlooked & I was being stereotyped because of my race.
This is the whole thing boiled down to basic truth of it. Great post, Paula. It would be great if people would just concentrate on the real issue instead of that other bull****.

It is bound to become part of our vocabulary - ala' Sugar Tits.:D
My favorite. Phrase. Ever!! Whenever it's used, it's such a point-in-eye-with-a-sharp-stick to Smell Gibson. He will never get away from the sound of the Sugar Tits that loved him.....

[skcin]

This is the whole thing boiled down to basic truth of it. Great post, Paula. It would be great if people would just concentrate on the real issue instead of that other bull****.


My favorite. Phrase. Ever!! Whenever it's used, it's such a point-in-eye-with-a-sharp-stick to Smell Gibson. He will never get away from the sound of the Sugar Tits that loved him.....

Thanks, Sugar Tits! :wavey: Wait, you're not a Jew, are you? :laugh:

[The Tower]

Thanks, Sugar Tits! :wavey: Wait, you're not a Jew, are you? :laugh:
Well, physically I am, but spiritually and ethnically I'm not. ;)

[Rickypt]

Now. Imus said what he did about smart, well educated successful female athletes. They are beautiful & poised & well spoken (from what I saw of the news conference.) Referring to them as "nappy headed ho's" implies that no matter what they do, how much education they get, how well dressed they are, how successful they are, they're still nothing because they're black, or poor, or whatever. I'm not saying that's what he meant, but I can easily see that it was construed that way.

If it were me, and I were busting my ass to make something of myself and break down stereotypes and be a great role model for young girls, I'm be hurt & upset & pissed off if I felt that my accomplishments were being overlooked & I was being stereotyped because of my race.

Thank you, Paula. This is exactly the point.

[Sugar]

Thank you, Paula. This is exactly the point and it has been lost in all the extraneous stuff about racism against whites and welfare reform and all the other stuff that comes when comments like the ones made by Imus are made. And the point was lost when Sharpton/Jackson took over and made the whole thing a campaign to fire Imus instead of letting these women speak for themselves.

Yes and yes. The trick is going to be (or IMO should be) getting this basic level of respect to be demanded a bit more universally. That includes the black community. And that is where all this comes together in my mind.

[goldustsongbird]

No. How come they can call each other the N word but we can't call them that. They can call me cracker or white boy. I think they could care less about what we say in the media, they all run to asshole Sharpton cause he's got a big mouth and they know that he can use it for publicity(uproar).

I agree with you. You see it in stand up comedy all the time. It's okay if a black man makes a comment about lil ol whitey over there, but you know if a white comedian even hinted at any ill toward blacks, people would be all over it.

I just used the example of comedians because I saw something on Just for Laughs a few nights ago, where this guy made a stereotypical white person joke. Everyone cracked up. There were no news reports about it. You know it would be a different case if it were the other way around. I'm not saying racism from either side is appropriate, but play fair. Condemn one group, gotta condemn the other.

[Rickypt]

Exactly. Drop this **** already.

Racism isn't "****" to a lot of people. Just because you think you've got the skinny on all black people and feel like you can write everything off as "all of them" running to Sharpton doesn't mean problem solved.

[strandinthewind]

Thanks, Sugar Tits! :wavey: Wait, you're not a Jew, are you? :laugh:

a jewess maybe :shrug: :shrug:

remember - Towie sits to pee my little set of ST :D

[strandinthewind]

I want to refer to you as nappy headed hoe too.....

I think I will.

I think I may like that - though you could through in packaninny to add emphasis :cool:

[The Tower]

a jewess maybe :shrug: :shrug:

remember - Towie sits to pee my little set of ST :D
Actually, I prefer to stand, Miz Sausage Pattie. Look who's talking Mr.-I-use-a-pair-of-tweezers-to-masturbate.....


I think I may like that - though you could through in packaninny to add emphasis :cool:
That reminds me of an old black and white movie from the 30's where Kate Smith is sitting around with a bunch of little black kids singing about "Pickaninnies dreaming about watermelon". :rolleyes:

[LukeA]

MSNBC has dropped the simulcast of Imus.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/SHOWBIZ/TV/04/11/imus.rutgers/index.html

This is getting WAY out of hand.

[Dreamz19]

Racism isn't "****" to a lot of people. Just because you think you've got the skinny on all black people and feel like you can write everything off as "all of them" running to Sharpton doesn't mean problem solved.

Thank you! And a lot of the black people I know don't even like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton all that much. Those two men do not speak for an entire race of people.

[LukeA]

http://www.kansascity.com/182/story/66339.html

Once again, Jason Whitlock hits the nail right on the head.

[Kelly]

While I think what Imus said was completely inappropriate, I am left wondering why no one cared when Donald Trump called Rosie O'Donnell a "fat, loser lesbian". That was one of many degrading comments he made about her sexuality. He used the public airwaves to rant as well. He went on CNN, NBC etc and spewed his venom for weeks, insulting Rosie as a woman, a mother and as a lesbian. :shrug: I didn't see NBC threaten to cancel The Apprentice. I didn't see sponsers pull out of his show. :shrug: Where do we draw the line on what is offensive in this country? Imus apologized and admitted he was wrong, Trump thinks his opinions are justified!

Seeing that Imus has a track record of making racially inappropriate statements, I am a bit torn about what should be done about him. Honestly, I think the people should be left to decide whether they want to listen to him or not. The Apprentice ratings have been dropping dramatically...perhaps some people are tuning out after hearing Trump's sexist, degrading comments.

This whole thing makes me incredibly sad, as I graduated from Rutgers. These young women's achievements have been overshadowed by a 50 second bit on a radio program. In the future when they think back to their fight for the NCAA title, the first thing they will remember is Imus's hurtful comments. :(

[sparky]

Yes, they did and yes, they were. Said it took away from their accomplishments as a team.

If they think their accomplishments were taken away in some form, or they were "hurt" by the ranting of a jackball shock jock, I am thinking they have learned little from their higher educations. The proper response? "He's an idiot and an entertainer and no one cares what he thinks".

Holding a press conference and talking about how painful it is strikes me as more than a little pathetic. I swear, we are five minutes from the thought police being dispatched. It will solve nothing. Firing him or banning him is like jailing a person who burns a flag. It is so missing the point. You can't legislate thoughts and you can't force people to change their belief systems.
White guilt strikes again.

[CelticGypsy]

If they think their accomplishments were taken away in some form, or they were "hurt" by the ranting of a jackball shock jock, I am thinking they have learned little from their higher educations. The proper response? "He's an idiot and an entertainer and no one cares what he thinks".

Holding a press conference and talking about how painful it is strikes me as more than a little pathetic. I swear, we are five minutes from the thought police being dispatched. It will solve nothing. Firing him or banning him is like jailing a person who burns a flag. It is so missing the point. You can't legislate thoughts and you can't force people to change their belief systems.
White guilt strikes again.


Very good points:)

[sara1998]

I agree with you. You see it in stand up comedy all the time. It's okay if a black man makes a comment about lil ol whitey over there, but you know if a white comedian even hinted at any ill toward blacks, people would be all over it.

I just used the example of comedians because I saw something on Just for Laughs a few nights ago, where this guy made a stereotypical white person joke. Everyone cracked up. There were no news reports about it. You know it would be a different case if it were the other way around. I'm not saying racism from either side is appropriate, but play fair. Condemn one group, gotta condemn the other.

I.Love.You.So.Much.Right.Now.

[Mari]

^^I'll never understand it when white people whine about being discriminated.. Huh?!

mm. let me put it this way: when members of a priviledged majority whine about being discriminated. Excuse me?

[Rickypt]

If they think their accomplishments were taken away in some form, or they were "hurt" by the ranting of a jackball shock jock, I am thinking they have learned little from their higher educations. The proper response? "He's an idiot and an entertainer and no one cares what he thinks".

Holding a press conference and talking about how painful it is strikes me as more than a little pathetic. I swear, we are five minutes from the thought police being dispatched. It will solve nothing. Firing him or banning him is like jailing a person who burns a flag. It is so missing the point. You can't legislate thoughts and you can't force people to change their belief systems.
White guilt strikes again.

Sparky, you can't tell someone what the "proper" response should be. That would be your response and it would be your response based on your own experiences and way of approaching things.

Since I am not black, and I am not a woman, I can't pretend to say how these women should have responded. They held a press conference because there is a media firestorm out there. They are a class act, showing they will take Imus' offer to meet with them (I would have told him to fukc off) and making sure that the meeting is private and not disclosing info to the media about it.

As for the firing, no one has a right to make a ton of money off of free speech. Imus can say whatever the hell he wants but that doesn't guarantee him a fat contract with MSNBC. It is not remotely similar to jailing someone for burning a flag. Someone else will have to pay the man's salary.

[sara1998]

So, we're not allowed racial slurs, but they are? What justifies that?

[Rickypt]

I agree that the racial slurs should stop from all sides. What I don't understand is why anytime there is a thread here about a racist act/slur against a person of color, the conversation almost immediately turns to examples of racism against whites or a discussion about welfare.

Yes, there are examples of racism against whites, but does anyone really believe that the experience of white people in general can be compared to the experience of black people. Either historically or today--it's just not even close. Therefore, there is a disproportional impact of a phrase like "nappy-headed ho's" used against young black women compared to a black comedian talking about how white people can't dance. It's all about power dynamics. I wish Hejira were chiming in because I liked what he had to say in the ching-chong thread about this issue.

Anyway, when the playing level is much more level in the U.S., then an old white grouch can probably get away with the nappy-headed ho comment on his TV show. We're not there--we're not close to there--so there is going to be this kind of firestorm when these things happen.

I agree with everyone about Sharpton/Jackson. I wish they would calm down and explain the impact of these words in a way that people can hear instead of picketing CBS demanding Imus to be fired. I would have fired Imus myself because I wouldn't want my money going to him, but the discussion shouldn't be about firing someone. It should be about explaining why these words were so offensive. There have been some great guest on various political shows, including conservative Armstrong Williams, who have done a fantastic job explaining all of this.

[Rickypt]

While I think what Imus said was completely inappropriate, I am left wondering why no one cared when Donald Trump called Rosie O'Donnell a "fat, loser lesbian". That was one of many degrading comments he made about her sexuality. He used the public airwaves to rant as well. He went on CNN, NBC etc and spewed his venom for weeks, insulting Rosie as a woman, a mother and as a lesbian. :shrug: I didn't see NBC threaten to cancel The Apprentice. I didn't see sponsers pull out of his show. :shrug: Where do we draw the line on what is offensive in this country? Imus apologized and admitted he was wrong, Trump thinks his opinions are justified!


Very good point. I think what happened is there has been this growing wave of high-profile racist and other offensive remarks and it came to a head with Imus and he became the fall guy. Perhaps if the LGBT community had made as much noise around the Rosie comments then something would have happened. But if we did, then we'd be accused of being thought police and against freedom of speech. And let's face it, homophobic slurs aren't thought of in the same light as racial slurs.

[skcin]

If they think their accomplishments were taken away in some form, or they were "hurt" by the ranting of a jackball shock jock, I am thinking they have learned little from their higher educations. The proper response? "He's an idiot and an entertainer and no one cares what he thinks".

Holding a press conference and talking about how painful it is strikes me as more than a little pathetic. I swear, we are five minutes from the thought police being dispatched. It will solve nothing. Firing him or banning him is like jailing a person who burns a flag. It is so missing the point. You can't legislate thoughts and you can't force people to change their belief systems.
White guilt strikes again.

Good point. As a side note - why does anyone care what Al Roker or Whoopi Goldberg think? :shrug:

^^I'll never understand it when white people whine about being discriminated.. Huh?!

mm. let me put it this way: when members of a priviledged majority whine about being discriminated. Excuse me?


I said it before, I'll say it again. There is no term that anyone can call me (as a white middle class straight woman) that is anywhere near as offensive as calling a black person a n*gger or a gay person a f*ggot. There just isn't. ****, whore, bitch, white trash, cracker - none of them come close, IMO.

Have I been discriminated against by a black person for being white? Yes. But in the grand scheme of things, it did not negatively affect my life. It doesn't make me want to judge all black people as racist because of it. I can't control how others feel about me, or whether or not they care about what color I am. But I can control how I react & how I choose to allow it to affect me.

[Mari]

^thanks Paula, that was pretty much what I was thinking about:)

[JazmenFlowers]

Good point. As a side note - why does anyone care what Al Roker or Whoopi Goldberg think? :shrug:

I said it before, I'll say it again. There is no term that anyone can call me (as a white middle class straight woman) that is anywhere near as offensive as calling a black person a n*gger or a gay person a f*ggot. There just isn't. ****, whore, bitch, white trash, cracker - none of them come close, IMO.

Have I been discriminated against by a black person for being white? Yes. But in the grand scheme of things, it did not negatively affect my life. It doesn't make me want to judge all black people as racist because of it. I can't control how others feel about me, or whether or not they care about what color I am. But I can control how I react & how I choose to allow it to affect me.
good point.

[...obviously no one gives a **** about what I said...]

[strandinthewind]

Actually, I prefer to stand, Miz Sausage Pattie. Look who's talking Mr.-I-use-a-pair-of-tweezers-to-masturbate.....

Well - for your information pootah - now that I am taking Vitrex, I have graduated to a monkey wrench :D


That reminds me of an old black and white movie from the 30's where Kate Smith is sitting around with a bunch of little black kids singing about "Pickaninnies dreaming about watermelon". :rolleyes:

Lord Child :eek:

Of course, one of my fav.'s is the 1936 Show Boat http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0028249/ (Edna Ferber = Le Sigh)

Ol' Man River,
Dat Ol' Man River,
He mus' know sumpin',
But don' say nothin';
He jes' keeps rollin',
He keeps on rollin' along.

The above was better and more realistic with the unchanged, current PC lyrics :shrug:

Not to mention "Can't Help Lovin' That Man of Mine" - we need to do this as a duet!

[strandinthewind]

. . . Since I am not black, and I am not a woman . . . .

Well, there was that time on stage in Cabo San Lucas :wavey: Sadly, no video exists :wavey:

[strandinthewind]

^^I'll never understand it when white people whine about being discriminated.. Huh?!

mm. let me put it this way: when members of a priviledged majority whine about being discriminated. Excuse me?

I think it is because in America, the current system is designed to promote black people over white people in an attempt to right the wrongs of the past.

The problem with that goal is that all black people can take advantage of this system regardless of their income, privilege, etc

For example, if you have a below poverty level white kid who is more deserving on his own merit, he likely will lose an application to school, for a job, etc. to a rich, black kid who is less deserving on his own merit. To me, that is not right and it solves nothing in the way of helping people who need help, which ostensibly was the larger goal.

Similarly, government and some private contracts are given to minority owned firms solely because they are minority owned and no matter how much higher the price or the quality of workmanship. I think when people see this disparate treatment, they get angry, esp. when they are coughing up 30-40% of their salary to pay for this BS wasting of money. In other words, it would be cheaper and more efficient to take 10% of your money and go to the projects and hand it out on the street along with a providing a class on how to succeed in business. Moreover, white owned businesses have closed because of this treatment and good, hard working, white families have lost their homes, etc. because of this. How is that fair?

I have used this example in the past. My blond haired and blue eyed friend had no clue that something like his great, great grandfather's race allowed him to qualify for special treatment. This guy came from a wealthy family who could clearly afford to educate him in style. Yet, he qualified for a scholarship based on his "race" and he got into a school over more qualified white people. My friend certainly knew nothing of his past and certainly could have cared a less about righting any wrongs, as all his family's wrongs had been made right via their own hard work generations before then.

So, the question is - how is a system that allows this called a fair system? The answer is it is not.

So, the question then becomes, well, don't we have to help disadvantaged kids? Yes, we do.

But, helping disadvantaged kids should be just that. This is why I conclude any leg up should be based on poverty alone and race should not enter the picture. After all, aren't poor white kids just as deserving as poor black kids. Certainly, the poor white kids are discriminated against.

Yet, me saying this brands me as a horrible racist in this country. I think that is wrong.

[strandinthewind]

. . . As for the firing, no one has a right to make a ton of money off of free speech. Imus can say whatever the hell he wants but that doesn't guarantee him a fat contract with MSNBC. It is not remotely similar to jailing someone for burning a flag. Someone else will have to pay the man's salary.

The Constitutional right of free speech has no application here. The Constitution states:

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Thus, the only Constitutional right to free speech in this country is the right not to have the govt. suppress your speech unless you are inciting a riot, causing a panic, etc. - which are judicially created exceptions.

This is a common misconception. And, it is why Imus can be canned. The only Constitutional violation would be if the govt. passed a law canning Imus.

In the end, Imus was an idiot for making these remarks and he is paying the price.

[sara1998]

I think it is because in America, the current system is designed to promote black people over white people in an attempt to right the wrongs of the past.

The problem with that goal is that all black people can take advantage of this system regardless of their income, privilege, etc

For example, if you have a below poverty level white kid who is more deserving on his own merit, he likely will lose an application to school, for a job, etc. to a rich, black kid who is less deserving on his own merit. To me, that is not right and it solves nothing in the way of helping people who need help, which ostensibly was the larger goal.

Similarly, government and some private contracts are given to minority owned firms solely because they are minority owned and no matter how much higher the price or the quality of workmanship. I think when people see this disparate treatment, they get angry, esp. when they are coughing up 30-40% of their salary to pay for this BS wasting of money. In other words, it would be cheaper and more efficient to take 10% of your money and go to the projects and hand it out on the street along with a providing a class on how to succeed in business. Moreover, white owned businesses have closed because of this treatment and good, hard working, white families have lost their homes, etc. because of this. How is that fair?

I have used this example in the past. My blond haired and blue eyed friend had no clue that something like his great, great grandfather's race allowed him to qualify for special treatment. This guy came from a wealthy family who could clearly afford to educate him in style. Yet, he qualified for a scholarship based on his "race" and he got into a school over more qualified white people. My friend certainly knew nothing of his past and certainly could have cared a less about righting any wrongs, as all his family's wrongs had been made right via their own hard work generations before then.

So, the question is - how is a system that allows this called a fair system? The answer is it is not.

So, the question then becomes, well, don't we have to help disadvantaged kids? Yes, we do.

But, helping disadvantaged kids should be just that. This is why I conclude any leg up should be based on poverty alone and race should not enter the picture. After all, aren't poor white kids just as deserving as poor black kids. Certainly, the poor white kids are discriminated against.

Yet, me saying this brands me as a horrible racist in this country. I think that is wrong.

Thanks. I'm not articulated enough to argue this point. :lol:

[The Tower]

So, the question is - how is a system that allows this called a fair system? The answer is it is not.

So, the question then becomes, well, don't we have to help disadvantaged kids? Yes, we do.

But, helping disadvantaged kids should be just that. This is why I conclude any leg up should be based on poverty alone and race should not enter the picture. After all, aren't poor white kids just as deserving as poor black kids. Certainly, the poor white kids are discriminated against.

Yet, me saying this brands me as a horrible racist in this country. I think that is wrong.
I don't think you're branded a racist- I think some (not me!) may be branding you an elitist, though.

Unfortunately, White America is going to have to suck it up for awhile. Nothing in life is ever fair.

Black Americans have been disadvantaged for so long, that they have to get a "leg-up". Just because some take advantage of the system doesn't diminish the need for it. Should the system be "fixed"- yes, but not at the expense of any one of the disadvantaged being short-changed once again.

It's a difficult prospect trying to right the wrongs of the past. My ancestors came to America the 1890's and had zippo to do with slavery. However, as White Americans of today, or any time for that matter, we have automatic, built-in advantages that any person of color is automatically denied regardless of our mutual history or when we became American citizens.

[strandinthewind]

^^^

I think the fault of your argument is that it seems to me you do not acknowledge that people other than black people have been shat upon by rich white people and that rich people in general and regardless of race are advantaged over the poor. Certainly, the Chinese and the Irish were treated like slaves - indeed, some were indentured servants. And, gay people have been tortured, jailed and/or killed. So, why single out just the blacks :shrug: Moreover, the poor of this country have been shat upon by the in general rich (of all races) since the country began and to this day. So, all of those people were discrimminated against.

Was one worse than the other? I guess it depends of the person asked. I am sure Matthew Sheppard would reply his treatment that resulted in death after torture was as bad as any slave was treated. Moreover, wealthy minorities shiitee on and disassociate themselves from the poor ones, even to this day.

So, this brings me back to my point that any govt. assistance should be based on poverty and race should not come into the picture. That way, all the disadvantaged and downtroden get a chance.

As for me being an elitist, I think people think I am saying "let them eat cake" while living in Versailles. I am not. I truly believe that the poor, all of them, have to have help if they ever want to get out of that situation. Indeed, I have worked to many years to achieve that goal. That is why I am for a larger form of Equal Opportunity that emcompasses all the poor.

As for white people sucking it up, I am all for the rich, advantaged white people sucking it up to help all of the poor. However, I think you are missing the point that I made earlier, which was that wealthy and advantaged black people are given advantage over poor, disadvantaged white people. How is that a good thing? What wrong does it right? Surely, any wrong committed against the wealthy black family's ancestors were righted because the wealthy black family has made it into the mainstream so to speak :shrug: Yet, out current system gives the wealthy black family even more advantage as noted above.

So, in the end, I again conclude, it should be based on poverty, not race.

How that makes me an elitist, I will never know (general question to all)

If I am branded an elitist because I have a higher education, a great job, and money in the bank - then I submit that is not a fair assessment of my argument. In other words, are all people in my position, including the minority ones, elitist? Are they that even though they advocate, as I am, formulating a system in this country that stops the blatant waste and abuse, while helping all people who are in need. Why are my goals bad or elitist?

[strandinthewind]

. . . Black Americans have been disadvantaged for so long, that they have to get a "leg-up". Just because some take advantage of the system doesn't diminish the need for it. Should the system be "fixed"- yes, but not at the expense of any one of the disadvantaged being short-changed once again . . . .

Again, how does helping all of the poor regardless of race fail to accomplish this goal? Under my system, any disadvantaged black person will get a leg up if they need it. I submit they need it only if they are part of the poor.

It's a difficult prospect trying to right the wrongs of the past. My ancestors came to America the 1890's and had zippo to do with slavery. However, as White Americans of today, or any time for that matter, we have automatic, built-in advantages that any person of color is automatically denied regardless of our mutual history or when we became American citizens.

I agree. However, I do not think perpetuating that is the right thing to do. I say perpetuate because that is what I see happening. I think automatically giving special treatment to all blacks regardless of their level of education and socio economic standing perptuates the notion that they were once universally though of as inferior - so, to this day and regardless of their success, they still need a leg up over all white people. To me, that makes no sense and IMO is rather insulting. What makes sense to me is helping the people who need the help, which I define as the poor of all races. In other words, once you make it out, you are on your own.

[strandinthewind]

Imus: 'I've apologized enough'

Story Highlights• Imus says he will not go on "some talk show tour"

NEW YORK (CNN) -- Amid the outcry over his on-air racial slur last week, shock jock Don Imus said Thursday that he had "apologized enough" and that he will not go on "some talk show tour."

"I'm not going to go talk to Larry King or Barbara Walters or anyone else," Imus said on his radio show, which originates from WFAN-AM in New York and is syndicated nationally by Westwood One, both of which are managed by CBS Corp.

"The only other people I want to talk to are these young women at the team, and then that's it," Imus said.

He was referring to the members of the Rutgers University women's basketball team, whom he described as "nappy-headed hos" the day after the team lost the NCAA championship to the University of Tennessee. (Gallery: Other controversial comments aired on Imus show)

He has repeatedly apologized for those remarks. Team members have agreed to meet with him privately, but so far no meeting has taken place.

"It gets said. Kids get hurt," he said. "At some point -- I'm not sure when -- I'm going to go talk to the team and that's all I'm interested in doing."

Imus' comments Thursday came a day after NBC Universal decided to part ways with him completely, thus canceling the simulcast of his show on MSNBC.

Despite being dropped by NBC, Imus hosted his show from the MSNBC studios in New Jersey. He did not appear on TV.

"As you know, MSNBC folded up yesterday, so we're just on the radio," he said.

Imus was broadcasting his 18th annual radio charity fundraiser, which has pulled in $50 million since 1990. It ends Friday.

"This may be our last radiothon, so we need to raise $100 million dollars," Imus said, chuckling.

According to The Associated Press, Imus raised $1 million in the first five hours of Thursday's fundraiser.

On Wednesday, appearing on CNN's "The Situation Room," presidential candidate Sen. Barack Obama, D.-Illinois, blasted NBC for airing a host who makes "derogatory statements toward women and minorities.

"I've got two young daughters who I hope will be athletes. And, you know, the notion that somehow they would be degraded and insulted, and that that would pass as humor, and that NBC would be running that over the public airwaves I think is atrocious," he said.

Imus discusses cancellation
Earlier in the week, CBS Radio issued a statement announcing a two-week suspension that starts Monday.

"What matters to us most is that the men and women of NBC Universal have confidence in the values we have set for this company," the statement said. "This is the only decision that makes that possible." (Your e-mails on Imus)

Imus discussed the cancellation on his morning show.

"As you know MSNBC folded up yesterday, so we're just on the radio," he said, adding "sometimes it doesn't snow on Christmas."

On Wednesday, a CBS board member, Bruce Gordon, called for Imus to be fired from WFAN.

"His remarks are so significant that I believe that the right outcome is for him to be terminated," said Gordon, former president of the NAACP.

The head coach of the Rutgers women's basketball team, Vivian Stringer, told "The Situation Room" Wednesday that she was "stunned" and "surprised" by MSNBC's move.

"I think that it's probably a victory for the people," said Stringer, who said she was "proud" of corporate executives who "understand that we can do better."

Civil rights activist Al Sharpton said MSNBC's move "was the right thing to do." As for CBS, Sharpton scheduled a rally outside the network's New York offices Thursday, where he hopes to pressure CBS into canceling Imus' morning show, a statement from a media agency representing Sharpton said.

"If CBS follows suit as NBC has done, it gives a chilling message to those that will use the public airwaves in a way that is gender-biased and race-biased," Sharpton told "The Situation Room."

He also said he intends to complain to the Federal Communications Commission about the matter.

"Somewhere we must draw the line in what is tolerable in mainstream media," he said Sunday. "We cannot keep going through offending us and then apologizing and then acting like it never happened. Somewhere we've got to stop this."

Imus' comments also prompted at least eight companies to pull their ads from Imus' show: Staples, General Motors, Sprint Nextel, GlaxoSmithKline, Procter & Gamble, PetMed Express, American Express and Bigelow Tea.

Rutgers players express 'hurt, anger, disgust'
Imus "has stolen a moment of pure grace from us," the captain of the Rutgers women's basketball team, Essence Carson, said.

Carson and other players spoke at a news conference Tuesday in their first public statements since Imus' inflammatory remarks. (Players talk of hurt, seeking understanding)

"I would like to express our team's great hurt, anger and disgust toward the words of Mr. Don Imus," Carson said. (Watch as Carson says the issue is "about more than a game of basketball")

Imus used the derogatory phrase after the underdog team lost the NCAA women's title to the University of Tennessee Lady Volunteers. He apologized on Friday and Monday before his suspension.

Other players echoed Carson's reaction, saying Imus' insulting words and the resulting controversy overshadowed their achievements.

Stringer and Rutgers players are scheduled to appear Thursday on "The Oprah Winfrey Show."

On Wednesday morning, Stacy Brann, Rutgers team spokeswoman, said the players will meet with Imus this week. The day and location are still to be determined, she said.

Several players said they would welcome the chance for a face-to-face meeting with Imus.

"I would like to speak to him personally and ... ask him, after you've met me personally, do you still feel in this category that I'm still a 'ho' as a woman and as a black, African-American woman at that?" said Kia Vaughn, a sophomore center.

"I achieve a lot, and unless they have given this name of 'ho' a new definition, then that is not what I am."

Stringer praised the accomplishments and character of the team members, five of whom are freshmen. (Coach builds winners, despite adversity)

"They are young ladies of class, distinction, they are articulate, they are brilliant, they are gifted. They are God's representatives in every sense of the word," she said. (Read Stringer's complete comments)

Find this article at:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/SHOWBIZ/TV/04/12/imus.rutgers/index.html

[Rickypt]

Well, there was that time on stage in Cabo San Lucas :wavey: Sadly, no video exists :wavey:

:confused: :confused: :confused: :laugh: :laugh:

[skcin]

Again, how does helping all of the poor regardless of race fail to accomplish this goal? Under my system, any disadvantaged black person will get a leg up if they need it. I submit they need it only if they are part of the poor.



Are you running for public office? :laugh:

[strandinthewind]

:confused: :confused: :confused: :laugh: :laugh:

Well, there is this still

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v602/strandinthewind/071_02.jpg

HEY - that's me :eek:

[strandinthewind]

Are you running for public office? :laugh:

Well, don't think I haven't thought about it. Sadly, there was that unfortunate motel incident awhile back that the public is just not ready to accept even though I was not the ring leader. Yes, farm animals ran in terror, several latex making plants saw their profits boom, and McDonald's saw a drop in their straw supply - but it was all in good fun.

[The Tower]

^^^

I think the fault of your argument is that it seems to me you do not acknowledge that people other than black people have been shat upon by rich white people and that rich people in general and regardless of race are advantaged over the poor. Certainly, the Chinese and the Irish were treated like slaves - indeed, some were indentured servants. And, gay people have been tortured, jailed and/or killed. So, why single out just the blacks :shrug: Moreover, the poor of this country have been shat upon by the in general rich (of all races) since the country began and to this day. So, all of those people were discrimminated against.

Was one worse than the other? I guess it depends of the person asked. I am sure Matthew Sheppard would reply his treatment that resulted in death after torture was as bad as any slave was treated. Moreover, wealthy minorities shiitee on and disassociate themselves from the poor ones, even to this day.
I think you're being a little intellectually dishonest.

Comparing the plights of the Chinese, the Irish and gays to that of blacks is not a good one. Blacks were captured and brought here against their will and thrown into slavery. The Chinese and the Irish came here on their own volition to try and earn a better life. Humanity will always discriminate against the gays- it's just the way it is.


So, this brings me back to my point that any govt. assistance should be based on poverty and race should not come into the picture. That way, all the disadvantaged and downtroden get a chance.
Apples and oranges again, Jason.

I think anyone in poverty should be given assistance of some sort to have a better life. Everyone in society benefits from helping the poor. However, that is a separate idea from the concept that a certain group of people who can be easily grouped together simply because of the color of their skin, and other characteristics, were systematically denied basic human rights for 300+ years.

A large segment of the American population has a built-in "lowering" of the status of blacks simply because of their race. They are automatically handicapped- so, that "leg-up" is an attempt to balance things out a little bit.

As for me being an elitist, I think people think I am saying "let them eat cake" while living in Versailles. I am not. I truly believe that the poor, all of them, have to have help if they ever want to get out of that situation. Indeed, I have worked to many years to achieve that goal. That is why I am for a larger form of Equal Opportunity that emcompasses all the poor.
Just like no one can understand the challenges that come with being gay unless one is gay- no one can understand the challenges of being poor, or black in America, unless one is poor, or black in America.

I support helping the poor, but I would never claim to understand the difficulties and challenges related to trying to get out of poverty. Because of that, I will always err on the side of helping someone, rather than denying them assistance. It's very easy to assume that someone is not "trying" to get out poverty without actually being in that person's shoes.

As for white people sucking it up, I am all for the rich, advantaged white people sucking it up to help all of the poor. However, I think you are missing the point that I made earlier, which was that wealthy and advantaged black people are given advantage over poor, disadvantaged white people. How is that a good thing? What wrong does it right? Surely, any wrong committed against the wealthy black family's ancestors were righted because the wealthy black family has made it into the mainstream so to speak :shrug: Yet, out current system gives the wealthy black family even more advantage as noted above.
Again, suck it up. If the current system has flaws that occasionally give extras to wealthy black families, I'd rather have that than a system that short-changes even one poor family. I agreed with you before that the system needs to be fixed. However, the concept the wealthy blacks can benefit from the current system is immaterial to the basic idea that blacks are fundamentally disadvantaged in America.

So, in the end, I again conclude, it should be based on poverty, not race.
Again, two separate concepts.

How that makes me an elitist, I will never know (general question to all)

If I am branded an elitist because I have a higher education, a great job, and money in the bank - then I submit that is not a fair assessment of my argument. In other words, are all people in my position, including the minority ones, elitist? Are they that even though they advocate, as I am, formulating a system in this country that stops the blatant waste and abuse, while helping all people who are in need. Why are my goals bad or elitist?
I'll take a shot at why some might think you could be elitist (or something like it).

I really liked your post about how you worked to help disadvantaged people in New Orleans with education, etc. However, unlike those that you stated were not even trying to get out of poverty, you were able to leave at the end of the day and go back to your life with its much higher standard of living. There's nothing wrong with that and there is nothing in that that would create blame, however, I think a lot of that "not trying to get out of poverty" has a lot more to do with hopelessness than it would have to do with laziness (even though there may be some that are truly "lazy"). I get that you say you saw it, I'm just saying that if people cannot see any way out, it makes it very difficult to try.

[The Tower]

I think automatically giving special treatment to all blacks regardless of their level of education and socio economic standing perptuates the notion that they were once universally though of as inferior - so, to this day and regardless of their success, they still need a leg up over all white people. To me, that makes no sense and IMO is rather insulting.
You may think it is insulting, but it is reality all the same.

It's nice to be an idealist- but, at the end of the day, blacks are still unfairly disadvantaged because of the color of their skin to this day.

[strandinthewind]

Slavery ended 140 or so years ago. I say it is time to move on totally from it. Yet, people cannot see this and they want to perpetuate the current system, that is not working. To me, that is ridiculous when one based on poverty alone is far better because it achieves the same goals as helping out poor black people as the current system does, but eliminates the fraud.

I mean is repeating "we" are sorry so here are extra rights over everyone for the next 100 years going to be enough? When will it end? I say never because it has become a political tool.

As for my teaching parable - I was repeating what the people in the projects were saying. They, not I, were the ones who had the contempt for the people who were not trying to get their kids out. So, I based my conclusion on that, which is sort of like walking in their shoes just a tiny bit.

In any event, how would you fix the current system if not by making it the far more inclusive system based on poverty, which treats everyone the same?

[sparky]

Sparky, you can't tell someone what the "proper" response should be. That would be your response and it would be your response based on your own experiences and way of approaching things.


I can tell anyone anything I want. It is up to them to listen or not. It is my opinion that giving him any credence whatsoever is giving him power. Why anyone cares what a shriveled old shock jock thinks of them is beyond me. He isn't even funny. He's a fool, and treating him as such is a response coming forom a place other than victimhood. I know, victimhood is the new black. Victimhood is the new religion. But it doesn't advance anyone.


Since I am not black, and I am not a woman, I can't pretend to say how these women should have responded.

Black, schmack. Someone says something about you that is stupid. So what?
If a washed up media figure called me a silly fag, why would I care? A bad joke and a low grade insult is what it is no matter the subject.

As for the firing, no one has a right to make a ton of money off of free speech.

We all have a right to make ton of money off whatever the market will bear. Or whatever we can hustle.

It is not remotely similar to jailing someone for burning a flag.

Yes it is. It is treating the symptom, looking at the small picture, and projecting an interpretation on someone else's actions.

[strandinthewind]

I think you're being a little intellectually dishonest.

Comparing the plights of the Chinese, the Irish and gays to that of blacks is not a good one. Blacks were captured and brought here against their will and thrown into slavery. The Chinese and the Irish came here on their own volition to try and earn a better life. Humanity will always discriminate against the gays- it's just the way it is . . . .

Being an indentured servant was no picnic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indentured_servant

Also, the Irish could stay at home and be killed by England either through starvation or outright slaying. Or, the landlords would pay for their passage to America or Australia to pave the way for livestock farming, which generated revenue. It was often noted that it was cheaper to import the Irish and let them work until they died than it was to buy, house, maintain, and feed slaves. Look at what Lincoln did to man the Union Army. Thus, I think that qualifies as treatment on par with slavery, especially considering many tribal chiefs actually sold their own tribal members into slavery :shrug:

In any event - here is a cool site -

http://www.slaveryinamerica.org/history/overview.htm

[sparky]

I am just curious. What did you think when Isaiah Washington called T.R Knight a faggot? A lot of gay rights groups and people in general were angry and some even wanted him fired. I am not being sarcastic or trying to be rude. I am just wondering how you felt about that?

I think the guy is a bonehead. And that he has problems with his temper. It was up to the network and the production company to deal with whatever rules of his employment he violated. There were stories that he is a jerk in general, as well. So, if he's a jerk and makes the workplace unpleasant, I suppose they'll fire him.

But for the record, I wasn't offended or hurt when I heard about it.:laugh:

[Sarah]

I'm gonna weigh in on this in a simplified way.

I think groups whining over words comes across as weak. I'm sorry. I know words can hurt feelings. I know people should watch what they say. But they don't.. people are stupid as hell, and say hella stupid things. You have to say something pretty outrageous to get me riled up.. and it's like.. one or two words.. a short phrase.. causing such an uproar.. ludicrous.

Groups crybabying over little things - as much as they may get pissed off about it - just encourages the people who say those things and don't give a damn even more. Does that make sense?

As long as there is an uproar, this stuff will continue to happen. Simpletons love the hype. And lots of people won't let stuff like this go even after apology after apology and forgiveness.. just because they need something to cry about. We live in a country where we have a right to say whatever we want, but then we want to turn around and tell people to STFU because we're offended. And eeeeeeeverybody is offended about something. Really, in the name of political correctness, America has become a hotbed of crybabies and, on the other spectrum, people who will say something to get a rise out of said crybabies, and then your usual percentage of apathetic and/or uninformed people.

Do I think he should have said it? No. It was in poor taste. But poor taste isn't illegal, and poor taste is not a punishable offense. Unless you count turning your radio dial or boycotting something as a punishment.

[Dreamz19]

I think the guy is a bonehead. And that he has problems with his temper. It was up to the network and the production compnay to deal with whatever rules of his employment he violated. There were stories that he is a jerk in general, as well. So, if he's a jerk and makes the workplace unpleasant, I suppose they'll fire him.

But for the record, I wasn't offended or hurt when I heard about it.:laugh:

Ok thanks for answering. Just like this Imus situation, many people were angry and wanted him fired for that situation too. I respect your opinion, but bottom line is people react differently to situations. Not everybody has that "who cares what they say" attitude. Don't get me wrong, something's are blown out of proportion and don't deserve an reaction. But in this situation (just like the I Washington situation) I feel like the people involved did have a right to be angry and upset.

[Sarah]

But in this situation (just like the I Washington situation) I feel like the people involved did have a right to be angry and upset.


What do you think about people who aren't involved getting upset?

[strandinthewind]

Interestingly, Imus' comments and the other guy;s comments referenced a Spike Lee movie - why wasn't Spike Lee boycotted? Spike says no and that he has a right to say those things.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18057333/

http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/news_theswamp/2007/04/imuss_ho_line_w.html

[strandinthewind]

If this keeps up, everyone will get special benefits because everyone will have black blood :D

Interracial Marriages Surge Across U.S.

Thursday, April 12, 2007

By DAVID CRARY, AP National Writer
ADVERTISEMENT
NEW YORK —

The charisma king of the 2008 presidential field. The world's best golfer. The captain of the New York Yankees. Besides superstardom, Barack Obama, Tiger Woods and Derek Jeter have another common bond: Each is the child of an interracial marriage.

For most of U.S. history, in most communities, such unions were taboo.

It was only 40 years ago _ on June 12, 1967 _ that the U.S. Supreme Court knocked down a Virginia statute barring whites from marrying nonwhites. The decision also overturned similar bans in 15 other states.

Since that landmark Loving v. Virginia ruling, the number of interracial marriages has soared; for example, black-white marriages increased from 65,000 in 1970 to 422,000 in 2005, according to Census Bureau figures. Factoring in all racial combinations, Stanford University sociologist Michael Rosenfeld calculates that more than 7 percent of America's 59 million married couples in 2005 were interracial, compared to less than 2 percent in 1970.

Coupled with a steady flow of immigrants from all parts of the world, the surge of interracial marriages and multiracial children is producing a 21st century America more diverse than ever, with the potential to become less stratified by race.

"The racial divide in the U.S. is a fundamental divide. ... but when you have the 'other' in your own family, it's hard to think of them as 'other' anymore," Rosenfeld said. "We see a blurring of the old lines, and that has to be a good thing, because the lines were artificial in the first place."

The boundaries were still distinct in 1967, a year when the Sidney Poitier film "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner" _ a comedy built around parents' acceptance of an interracial couple _ was considered groundbreaking. The Supreme Court ruled that Virginia could not criminalize the marriage that Richard Loving, a white, and his black wife, Mildred, entered into nine years earlier in Washington, D.C.

But what once seemed so radical to many Americans is now commonplace.

Many prominent blacks _ including Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas, civil rights leader Julian Bond and former U.S. Sen. Carol Moseley Braun _ have married whites. Well-known whites who have married blacks include former Defense Secretary William Cohen and actor Robert DeNiro.

Last year, the Salvation Army installed Israel Gaither as the first black leader of its U.S. operations. He and his wife, Eva, who is white, wed in 1967 _ the first interracial marriage between Salvation Army officers in the United States.

Opinion polls show overwhelming popular support, especially among younger people, for interracial marriage.

That's not to say acceptance has been universal. Interviews with interracial couples from around the country reveal varied challenges, and opposition has lingered in some quarters.

Bob Jones University in South Carolina only dropped its ban on interracial dating in 2000; a year later 40 percent of the voters objected when Alabama became the last state to remove a no-longer-enforceable ban on interracial marriages from its constitution.

Taunts and threats, including cross burnings, still occur sporadically. In Cleveland, two white men were sentenced to prison earlier this year for harassment of an interracial couple that included spreading liquid mercury around their house.

More often, though, the difficulties are more nuanced, such as those faced by Kim and Al Stamps during 13 years as an interracial couple in Jackson, Miss.

Kim, a white woman raised on Cape Cod, met Al, who is black, in 1993 after she came to Jackson's Tougaloo College to study history. Together, they run Cool Al's _ a popular hamburger restaurant _ while raising a 12-year-old son and 10-year-old daughter in the state with the nation's lowest percentage (0.7) of multiracial residents.

The children are homeschooled, Kim said, because Jackson's schools are largely divided along racial lines and might not be comfortable for biracial children. She said their family triggered a wave of "white flight" when they moved into a mostly white neighborhood four years ago _ "People were saying to my kids, 'What are you doing here?'"

"Making friends here has been really, really tough," Kim said. "I'll go five years at a time with no white friends at all."

Yet some of the worst friction has been with her black in-laws. Kim said they accused her of scheming to take over the family business, and there's been virtually no contact for more than a year.

"Everything was race," Kim said. "I was called 'the white devil.'"

Her own parents in Massachusetts have been supportive, Kim said, but she credited her mother with foresight.

"She told me, 'Your life is going to be harder because of this road you've chosen _ it's going to be harder for your kids,'" Kim said. "She was absolutely right."

Al Stamps said he is less sensitive to disapproval than his wife, and tries to be philosophical.

"I'm always cordial," he said. "I'll wait to see how people react to us. If I'm not wanted, I'll move on."

It's been easier, if not always smooth, for other couples.

Major Cox, a black Alabamian, and his white wife, Cincinnati-born Margaret Meier, have lived on the Cox family homestead in Smut Eye, Ala., for more than 20 years, building a large circle of black and white friends while encountering relatively few hassles.

"I don't feel it, I don't see it," said Cox, 66, when asked about racist hostility. "I live a wonderful life as a nonracial person."

Meier says she occasionally detects some expressions of disapproval of their marriage, "but flagrant, in-your-face racism is pretty rare now."

Cox _ an Army veteran and former private detective who now joins his wife in raising quarter horses _ longs for a day when racial lines in America break down.

"We are sitting on a powder keg of racism that's institutionalized in our attitudes, our churches and our culture," he said, "that's going to destroy us if we don't undo it."

In many cases, interracial families embody a mix of nationalities as well as races. Michelle Cadeau, born in Sweden, and her husband, James, born in Haiti, are raising their two sons as Americans in racially diverse West Orange, N.J., while teaching them about all three cultures.

"I think the children of families like ours will be able to make a difference in the world, and do things we weren't able to do," Michelle Cadeau said. "It's really important to put all their cultures together, to be aware of their roots, so they grow up not just as Swedish or Haitian or American, but as global citizens."

Meanwhile, though, there are frustrations _ such as school forms for 5-year-old Justin that provide no option for him to be identified as multiracial.

"I'm aware there are going to be challenges," Michelle said. "There's stuff that's been working for a very long time in this country that is not going to work anymore."

The boom in interracial marriages forced the federal government to change its procedures for the 2000 census, allowing Americans for the first time to identify themselves by more than one racial category.

About 6.8 million described themselves as multiracial _ 2.4 percent of the population _ adding statistical fuel to the ongoing debate over what race really means.

Kerry Ann Rockquemore, professor of African-American studies at the University of Illinois-Chicago, is the daughter of a black father and white mother, and says she is asked almost daily how she identifies herself.

The surge in interracial marriage comes at "a very awkward moment" in America's long struggle with racism, she says.

"We all want deeply and sincerely to be beyond race, to live in a world where race doesn't matter, but we continue to see deep racial disparities," Rockquemore said. "For interracial families, the great challenge is when the kids are going to leave home and face a world that is still very racialized."

The stresses on interracial couples can take a toll. The National Center for Health Statistics says their chances of a breakup within 10 years are 41 percent, compared to 31 percent for a couple of the same race.

In some categories of interracial marriage, there are distinct gender-related trends. More than twice as many black men marry white women as vice versa, and about three-fourths of white-Asian marriages involve white men and Asian women.

C.N. Le, a Vietnamese-American who teaches sociology at the University of Massachusetts, says the pattern has created some friction in Asian-American communities.

"Some of the men view the women marrying whites as sellouts, and a lot of Asian women say, 'Well, we would want to date you more, but a lot of you are sexist or patriarchal,'" said Le, who attributes the friction in part to gender stereotypes of Asians that have been perpetuated by American films and TV shows.

Kelley Kenney, a professor at Kutztown University in Pennsylvania, is among those who have bucked the black-white gender trend. A black woman, she has been married since 1988 to a fellow academic of Irish-Italian descent, and they have jointly offered programs for the American Counseling Association about interracial couples.

Kenney recalled some tense moments in 1993 when, soon after they moved to Kutztown, a harasser shattered their car window and placed chocolate milk cartons on their lawn. "It was very powerful to see how the community rallied around us," she said.

Kenney is well aware that some blacks view interracial marriage as a potential threat to black identity, and she knows her two daughters, now 15 and 11, will face questions on how they identify themselves.

"For older folks in the black community," she said "it's a feeling of not wanting people to forget where they came from."

Yet some black intellectuals embrace the surge in interracial marriages and multiracial families; among them is Harvard law professor Randall Kennedy, who addressed the topic in his latest book, "Interracial Intimacies: Sex, Marriage, Identity, and Adoption."

"Malignant racial biases can and do reside in interracial liaisons," Kennedy wrote. "But against the tragic backdrop of American history, the flowering of multiracial intimacy is a profoundly moving and encouraging development."

http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2007Apr12/0,4670,InterracialMarriage,00.html

[The Tower]

Slavery ended 140 or so years ago.
Again with the intellectual dishonesty. You know damn well, Jason, that the Jim Crow era just barely ended by the mid-late 1960's.


I say it is time to move on totally from it. Yet, people cannot see this and they want to perpetuate the current system, that is not working.
Everyone wants to move away from it, but since people continue to actively put blacks in a disadvantaged position, it's a little hard to do.

I mean is repeating "we" are sorry so here are extra rights over everyone for the next 100 years going to be enough? When will it end? I say never because it has become a political tool.
It's not about saying you're "sorry", it's about realistically having a balanced playing field. Once that happens, and I believe it will over time, then it will end. The cynicism about it being a political tool only adds to the time it will take to solve the problem.

As for my teaching parable - I was repeating what the people in the projects were saying. They, not I, were the ones who had the contempt for the people who were not trying to get their kids out. So, I based my conclusion on that, which is sort of like walking in their shoes just a tiny bit.
It is impossible for you to walk in their shoes. Even if you were suddenly completely homeless and destitute, you would still have the benefit of your experiences to help you out. I was homeless once, and I was able to come out of it. However, I believe that if I had been a young, black man in the same position I would not have been so lucky.

In any event, how would you fix the current system if not by making it the far more inclusive system based on poverty, which treats everyone the same?
I'm not informed enough to be able to lay out some big plan. If we're talking about dollars given out, I think there should be a cut-off at a certain level of earned income. If we're talking about the whole "that Black B student got into my choice college and I'm a white 4.25 student" routine, I say "suck it up". The more minorities that succeed in higher education the better. Whites already have an advantage in the working world, so live with it.

[Sarah]

I think it's a power trip. These people will feel better about themselves if they can bring somebody else down. IMO, that's way more mean spirited than an off color, off the cuff joke.

And, I think we should remember that white girls can have nappy hair, too.

http://archive.salon.com/people/bc/2001/06/05/stevie_nicks/story.jpg

[strandinthewind]

. . . I'm not informed enough to be able to lay out some big plan. If we're talking about dollars given out, I think there should be a cut-off at a certain level of earned income. If we're talking about the whole "that Black B student got into my choice college and I'm a white 4.25 student" routine, I say "suck it up". The more minorities that succeed in higher education the better. Whites already have an advantage in the working world, so live with it.

Then we agree that about it being on poverty.

However, you would, if I am understanding you correctly, give poor blacks an additional advantage amongst all the poor of all races because blacks were treated the most horrible amongst those also horribly treated. To me that distinction is unwarranted. I guess I consider poverty to be the biggest obstacle. You consider that to be race.

[Dreamz19]

What do you think about people who aren't involved getting upset?


I personally felt Imus comments were totally inappropriate and wrong. So did many other's. However, I think the people who are going on every talk show, demanding he be fired, and blowing up it need to back off. It really is up to Imus's boss whether he keeps his job or not. And if the girl's on the basketball team accept his apology that is what matters. Now if he had called them the n-word I could understand the involvement easily.

[Dreamz19]

Tower

I am really agreeing with you :nod:

[gldstwmn]

Imus has just been fired by CBS.

[The Tower]

Then we agree that about it being on poverty.

However, you would, if I am understanding you correctly, give poor blacks an additional advantage amongst all the poor of all races because blacks were treated the most horrible amongst those also horribly treated.
I think that if there were other groups of people in America who had been enslaved with no human rights or dignity of any kind for 300+ years that they would deserve a "leg up", too. Native Americans are the only other group of people that have been treated as miserably (they should get a "leg up", too by the way).

To me that distinction is unwarranted.
You yourself just posted an article that stated that Alabama had a constitutional law on the books that banned interracial marriage until 2002 (?) and you think that blacks don't need some kind of protection from being disadvantaged? Talk about non-reality.... Institutionalized racism is alive and well in America.

I guess I consider poverty to be the biggest obstacle. You consider that to be race.
Don't put words in mouth, dear- other things, yes, but words, no....

I consider poverty AND race to be obstacles. I don't put either one above each other because- as I've saying over and over and you still don't seem to get it- I don't think the challenges between the two are the same.

[strandinthewind]

I wasn't putting anything in your mouth - yet :woohoo:

I was asking for claification - Claree

Again, I think black people deserve a chance while they are poor. But, once they are educated and making their own way, I think that advantage stops. I get that this will not end racism. That can only come with education and time. And, it is happening as we speak - though I agree we have a long way to go.

Interestingly, I think most of society thinks this way in application. In other words, most people dislike and are terrified of the blacks in the ghetto. Yet, they like and socialize the ones they work with and for.

[strandinthewind]

. . . Institutionalized racism is alive and well in America . . . .

I do not think I ever said it was not. I just said things are way better than they were in 64. I do not think you can argue against that statement with two blacks serving or have served in the highest offices in the US government, which could never have happened in the 60's. So, 40 years had made a significant difference :shrug:

[#1LiddyBuckFan]

NEW YORK - CBS fired Don Imus from his radio show Thursday, the finale to a stunning fall for one of the nation's most prominent broadcasters.

Imus initially was given a two-week suspension, to start Monday, for calling the Rutgers women's basketball team "nappy-headed hos" on the air last week, but outrage continued to grow and advertisers bolted from his programs.

"There has been much discussion of the effect language like this has on our young people, particularly young women of color trying to make their way in this society," CBS President and Chief Executive Officer Leslie Moonves said in announcing the decision. "That consideration has weighed most heavily on our minds as we made our decision."

Rutgers women's basketball team spokeswoman Stacey Brann said the team did not have an immediate comment on Imus' firing but would be issuing a statement later Thursday evening.

Time Magazine once named the cantankerous broadcaster as one of the 25 Most Influential People in America, and he was a member of the National Broadcaster Hall of Fame.

But Imus found himself at the center of a storm after his comments. Protests ensued, and one by one, sponsors pulled their ads from Imus' show. On Wednesday, MSNBC dropped the simulcast of Imus' show.

The Rev. Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson met with Moonves to advocate Imus' removal, promising a rally outside CBS headquarters Saturday and an effort to persuade more advertisers to abandon Imus.

Sumner Redstone, chairman of the CBS Corp. board and its chief stockholder, told Newsweek that he had expected Moonves to "do the right thing," although it wasn't clear what he thought that was.

The news came down in the middle of Imus' Radiothon, which has raised more than $40 million since 1990 for good causes. The Radiothon had raised more than $1.3 million Thursday before Imus learned that he lost his job.

"This may be our last Radiothon, so we need to raise about $100 million," Imus cracked at the start of the event.

[Sarah]

The news came down in the middle of Imus' Radiothon, which has raised more than $40 million since 1990 for good causes. The Radiothon had raised more than $1.3 million Thursday before Imus learned that he lost his job.


But none of that matters, because he's a baaaaad, baaaad, evil, hate-mongering person. Right? :rolleyes:

[strandinthewind]

But none of that matters, because he's a baaaaad, baaaad, evil, hate-mongering person. Right? :rolleyes:

None of that matters when the race card is played - and he was dumb enough to play it.

Interestingly, CBS and NBC would have ignored this until his largest sponsors yanked their support. Money talks and Imus walks. Again, he has no one to blame but himself because anyone with half a brain cell knows that a white guy calling a black person a nappy headed ho is going to cause trouble.

[Sarah]

None of that matters when the race card is played - and he was dumb enough to play it.


I'll agree with you that he was dumb enough to play it, but I don't think that this SHOULD overshadow the charity work. it will, but it shouldn't.

I like being American, but we are a crazy bunch of people. We want handouts. We want free speech. But then, we want to chastise and tell each other to shut up. F-ing crazy.

[The Tower]

None of that matters when the race card is played - and he was dumb enough to play it.

Interestingly, CBS and NBC would have ignored this until his largest sponsors yanked their support. Money talks and Imus walks. Again, he has no one to blame but himself because anyone with half a brain cell knows that a white guy calling a black person a nappy headed ho is going to cause trouble.
I'm guessing that there wouldn't have been an uproar if he had called some nappy-headed 'ho's "nappy-headed ho", instead of upstanding college ladies.

F-ing crazy.
That's ****ing crazy, dear. Even though you can't say ****, you can still say ****ing or ****ed or I think even mother****er and it still works. ;)

[ELIUD]

I'll agree with you that he was dumb enough to play it, but I don't think that this SHOULD overshadow the charity work. it will, but it shouldn't.

I like being American, but we are a crazy bunch of people. We want handouts. We want free speech. But then, we want to chastise and tell each other to shut up. F-ing crazy.

Exactly why this is some scary ****. He and his producers said some really stupid remarks, they were offensive to women in sports in general and of course African Americans and just anybody, I was offended and outta my respect for Howard Stern - I just plain hate the guy. But what this confirms is that we really do live in a country that is enforcing politcal correctness and making it unsafe for broadcasters who have opinion shows to say very much at all.

[strandinthewind]

I'm guessing that there wouldn't have been an uproar if he had called some nappy-headed 'ho's "nappy-headed ho", instead of upstanding college ladies . . . .

Amen on that!

[Rickypt]

But none of that matters, because he's a baaaaad, baaaad, evil, hate-mongering person. Right? :rolleyes:

Very few people are saying he's a bad, evil, hate-mongering person. In fact, if you watch the nearly non-stop coverage of this story (as I have, being stuck in a hotel room), you would see that most people are going out of their way to talk about his charity work.

It still doesn't change the fact that he made an awful, racist remark. And he was called on it and he's being held accountable. Strand is right, he did this to himself. I don't feel remotely sorry for someone who obviously has enough racism inside him to easily spew out the comments that he did.

And I'll repeat: free speech doesn't mean you have the right to a multi-million contract to say whatever you want. Imus can say anything he wants--no one's going to put him in jail.

[Rickypt]

And, I think we should remember that white girls can have nappy hair, too.

Imus wasn't referring to white girls with nappy hair. He was singling out black women--what he was saying specifically is "these are some really tough, really black, and really ugly women". That is precisely what he meant by his so-called joke.

[ELIUD]

Imus wasn't referring to white girls with nappy hair. He was singling out black women--what he was saying specifically is "these are some really tough, really black, and really ugly women". That is precisely what he meant by his so-called joke.

...AND if anyone has heard the comments made by the producer after Imus' remarks, he actually used the word "JIGGABOOS". The whole crew is probably all around stupid. And his dumb wife, whom he met in a radio contest, added nothing to the show.

[Dreamz19]

...AND if anyone has heard the comments made by the producer after Imus' remarks, he actually used the word "JIGGABOOS". The whole crew is probably all around stupid. And his dumb wife, whom he met in a radio contest, added nothing to the show.

I never knew much about Imus but I decided to look some stuff up. He has said some pretty mean hateful things about different groups in the past. Therefore, I can see how some people aren't just taking this as a little joke.

[strandinthewind]

. . . for someone who obviously has enough racism inside him to easily spew out the comments that he did . . . .

Do you equate what he said with hate speech. In other words, do you automatically infer intentional hate in that speech. I am just curious. I do not. I think he was joking and had no hate in his heart. The reason I ask is because I think if most people could sep. the two, then there might not be such an uproar. I think this is an interesting point - does a white person using those words (and not ever ni**er) in jest automatically equate to hate speech. Clearly, the same standard does not apply to black people saying the same thing.

Does racism inside of him equate to hate.

I hinestly do not know the answer. I tend to say it does not. But, want to hear other peoples' thoughts.

[Rickypt]

It is my opinion that giving him any credence whatsoever is giving him power. Why anyone cares what a shriveled old shock jock thinks of them is beyond me. He isn't even funny. He's a fool, and treating him as such is a response coming forom a place other than victimhood. I know, victimhood is the new black. Victimhood is the new religion. But it doesn't advance anyone.

I get this....good point. I'm not sure that the women were coming from a place of victimhood. I think they were (1) forced into a situation of making a public comment and (2) trying to speak on behalf of black women. I think they were under enormous pressure to serve as representatives. And I think they did a remarkable job. I agree with you, thought, that in ideal circumstances, people should just blow off stupid comments, no matter how racist, homophobic, etc. because it reduces the power of the statements.

[strandinthewind]

...AND if anyone has heard the comments made by the producer after Imus' remarks, he actually used the word "JIGGABOOS". The whole crew is probably all around stupid. And his dumb wife, whom he met in a radio contest, added nothing to the show.

He was referring to that Spike Lee movie. I think that is why he tought nothing of it.

[strandinthewind]

I never knew much about Imus but I decided to look some stuff up. He has said some pretty mean hateful things about different groups in the past. Therefore, I can see how some people aren't just taking this as a little joke.

He is a so called shock jock - just like Howard Stern - only Imus' deal is more about politics and current events than Stern's love of the labia.

[Rickypt]

Do you equate what he said with hate speech. In other words, do you automatically infer intentional hate in that speech. I am just curious. I do not. I think he was joking and had no hate in his heart. The reason I ask is because I think if most people could sep. the two, then there might not be such an uproar. I think this is an interesting point - does a white person using those words (and not ever ni**er) in jest automatically equate to hate speech. Clearly, the same standard does not apply to black people saying the same thing.

Does racism inside of him equate to hate.

I hinestly do not know the answer. I tend to say it does not. But, want to hear other peoples' thoughts.

Good question. And no, I don't equate what he said with hate speech. I am saying it was racist. A racist comment doesn't have to be hateful; i.e., it doesn't mean someone is saying that black people should be hurt, killed, etc.

To me, a racist statement means demeaning a person or a group of people specifically because of their race. In this case, Imus singled out these women for being black women and made a comment that lowered and disrespected their status, their abilities, their accomplishments, and their place in society simply because of their race. I don't think he hates them. But I think he believes he is better than them and of a different status. And that all came out in those few words.

I think it is usually obvious when someone is really joking. And I do think that when people are speaking of other people in their own community, many times it really is joking. Like when I dish about "queens"---I'm just as much a queen as anyone else. But there is something really wrong about this white dude who doesn't appear to have any real credibility or connection to the black community making these comments. Something very not funny to me. Not hateful--just wrong.

[Sarah]

Imus wasn't referring to white girls with nappy hair. He was singling out black women--what he was saying specifically is "these are some really tough, really black, and really ugly women". That is precisely what he meant by his so-called joke.

My comment about white girls with nappy hair was a reference to the Stevie photo I posted below it. :P

And no, he shouldn't have said it. But, I would be a liar if I said that while I was watching that game, I myself, didn't comment to my dad that those were some "scary-ass lookin' girls". Not because of their race.. but because they look like they will beat your ****ing face in.

I've never cared much for Imus or his show. But I am a broadcaster. And it's like.. pay us, put this microphone in front of our face, and then tell us to shut up? He's been a hateful old bastard his entire career. A cowboy hat wearin' whatchamacallit. And what's sad to me is the thought that most likely, the people who are so upset about what he said are ones that didn't even hear it when he said it. Just after the snowball effect. It's like.. come on. People slip up. Let the man apologize for christ's sake. His comments were about a specific group. He apologized. They accepted it.

[Rickypt]

My comment about white girls with nappy hair was a reference to the Stevie photo I posted below it. :P

Sorry, I missed that!

But, I would be a liar if I said that while I was watching that game, I myself, didn't comment to my dad that those were some "scary-ass lookin' girls". Not because of their race.. but because they look like they will beat your ****ing face in.

I didn't see them....don't watch basketball. I can understand having that thought. And I can understand expressing that thought. What I don't understand is how you go from "scary-ass lookin' girls" (which might have been taken as a compliment from the team) to "nappy-headed ho's". Which might have been what happened with Imus....but how do you go with your real reaction (these women are tough) and come out with a racial slur?

[GateandGarden]

OMG. Yes, of course racist remarks are hateful. How difficult is that to understand? Prejudice is rooted in hate, as well as fear, but don't let me even try to get philosophical or some **** like that. Please.

I shouldn't even go on because I should've stopped reading this thread when someone started joking about an effing blackface lawn jockey. OMFG. Yes, that's so funny and cute. Laugh about that and then turn around and blabber on about what a saint you are for helping black poor people. Effing ridiculous and amazing.

[Rickypt]

OMG. Yes, of course racist remarks are hateful. How difficult is that to understand? Prejudice is rooted in hate, as well as fear, but don't let me even try to get philosophical or some **** like that. Please.


Rosie's ching-chong imitation was racist, but I don't think it was rooted in hate. Racism can come out of ignorance and feelings of superiority and not always out of hate, in my opinion. It doesn't make it any more acceptable though.

[GateandGarden]

I don't think I can say anything about the Rosie comment. I thought it might have been a matter of saying something she didn't mean to say but it just came out, but I'm not sure.

But aside from that, in general, I would say that racism and hatred are tied together, and probably typically involve ignorance and feelings of superiority also, as you said.

[Rickypt]

^^I agree with you in general.

[SteveMacD]

People need to stop psychoanalyzing Imus, or any entertainer. They don't make those comments out of hate. They make them specifically to get a rise out of somebody. Imus is a "shock jock" who's been doing it longer that the much more offensive Howard Stern. Stern could have made the EXACT SAME comment, but would have gotten a pass because Robin laughed at it.

It's not about hate, it's about ratings. He knew he would have to talk to Al or Jessie. But, it was a slow news day, and CNN would rather spend three hours asking a bunch of media whores like Sharpton, who'll do or say anything to get on the news, how they feel about Imus than, say, Darfur, where millions of actual African people are actually being slaughtered. If I were black, I know what I'd find more offensive.

[Sarah]

I think sometimes those types of remarks come from like.. not being around different ethnic groups very much. Complete inability to understand how what you've said will make them feel.

I was in 6th grade before I ever had a class with someone who wasn't white. I had never known anyone black or hispanic (but I did know a couple of Japanese children). Some of us who live in small, southern towns hear stuff like Imus said all the time. And you know, I don't think it stems from hate. Discomfort with the difference maybe.. and that is unfortunate.

Anyway, my point is. It's easy to make jokes about people who are different from you if you're never around them. It's like I'd almost expect him to shrug his shoulders and say, "what's everybody so upset about? i didn't say the n word!"

I honestly believe that this sort of language will never stop so long as the double standard exists. I mean, for chrissakes, we have white people calling each other "niggaz" now. The ghetto language has saturated pop slang so deeply - thanks to music, tv, movies, celebrities, etc - that it is never going to go away.

My suggestion is that everybody go back and save all your posts that you've made in this thread, because we'll be able to have this discussion again soon about some other broadcaster that couldn't censor his-or-her-self.

[strandinthewind]

OMG. Yes, of course racist remarks are hateful. How difficult is that to understand? Prejudice is rooted in hate, as well as fear, but don't let me even try to get philosophical or some **** like that. Please.

I shouldn't even go on because I should've stopped reading this thread when someone started joking about an effing blackface lawn jockey. OMFG. Yes, that's so funny and cute. Laugh about that and then turn around and blabber on about what a saint you are for helping black poor people. Effing ridiculous and amazing.

Bitter - party of one :laugh:

[stargazer99]

You yourself just posted an article that stated that Alabama had a constitutional law on the books that banned interracial marriage until 2002 (?) and you think that blacks don't need some kind of protection from being disadvantaged? Talk about non-reality.... Institutionalized racism is alive and well in America.

Not only was the ban lifted only 5 years ago, but the article also states 40% of voters were against lifting the ban. That says a lot about the state of race relations in this country, IMO. Sure, it's worse in certain areas of the country than others. But that doesn't mean we've totally moved past it in more "enlightened" areas, either.

The attitude that blacks need to just "get over it" is based on ignorance. And as others have stated, "discrimination against whites" doesn't begin to compare to what many blacks encounter. Just because one doesn't see such discrimination first hand doesn't mean it doesn't still happen in this country on a routine basis.

[strandinthewind]

Not only was the ban lifted only 5 years ago, but the article also states 40% of voters were against lifting the ban. That says a lot about the state of race relations in this country, IMO. Sure, it's worse in certain areas of the country than others. But that doesn't mean we've totally moved past it in more "enlightened" areas, either.

The attitude that blacks need to just "get over it" is based on ignorance. And as others have stated, "discrimination against whites" doesn't begin to compare to what many blacks encounter. Just because one doesn't see such discrimination first hand doesn't mean it doesn't still happen in this country on a routine basis.

I agree. And - I particularly love the story about the crazy "christians" who came to your house that time and freaked when they found out you were a bi racial couple :laugh:

Out of curiosity and not in a mean way, you all are successful - do you think you should get more business oran extra leg up based on your husband's race? Would that help alleviate the racial tension you feel?

I swear I am not being hateful. I am just curious to get a first hand opinion :cool:

And - how are ya?

[stargazer99]

OMG. Yes, of course racist remarks are hateful. How difficult is that to understand? Prejudice is rooted in hate, as well as fear, but don't let me even try to get philosophical or some **** like that. Please.

I shouldn't even go on because I should've stopped reading this thread when someone started joking about an effing blackface lawn jockey. OMFG. Yes, that's so funny and cute. Laugh about that and then turn around and blabber on about what a saint you are for helping black poor people. Effing ridiculous and amazing.

Prejudice is also rooted in ignorance. And it's also often passed down from generation to generation, unfortunately. Growing up on the south side of Chicago, I have seen it first hand. Racists raising racists. Parents freely throwing around the "N" word, then being shocked when their child is sent home from school after calling his bus driver a "N". (True story about a family I knew.)

I wouldn't be surprised if similar sentiments were thrown around freely in the households of people such as Imus. And I think such comments were probably based on all of the above: hate, fear, and ignorance. Then the kids grow up with the same hate, fear and ignorance. And think nothing of calling a bus driver the "N" word, or calling some female basketball players "nappy headed hos". Lovely.

[strandinthewind]

Interesting take on this:

April 13, 2007
Op-Ed Contributor
Our Prejudices, Ourselves
By HARVEY FIERSTEIN
AMERICA is watching Don Imus’s self-immolation in a state of shock and awe. And I’m watching America with wry amusement.

Since I’m a second-class citizen — a gay man — my seats for the ballgame of American discourse are way back in the bleachers. I don’t have to wait long for a shock jock or stand-up comedian to slip up with hateful epithets aimed at me and mine. Hate speak against homosexuals is as commonplace as spam. It’s daily traffic for those who profess themselves to be regular Joes, men of God, public servants who live off my tax dollars, as well as any number of celebrities.

In fact, I get a good chuckle whenever someone refers to “the media” as an agent of “the gay agenda.” There are entire channels, like Spike TV, that couldn’t fill an hour of programming if required to remove their sexist and homophobic content. We’ve got a president and a large part of Congress willing to change the Constitution so they can deprive of us our rights because they feel we are not “normal.”

So I’m used to catching foul balls up here in the cheap seats. What I am really enjoying is watching the rest of you act as if you had no idea that prejudice was alive and well in your hearts and minds.

For the past two decades political correctness has been derided as a surrender to thin-skinned, humorless, uptight oversensitive sissies. Well, you anti-politically correct people have won the battle, and we’re all now feasting on the spoils of your victory. During the last few months alone we’ve had a few comedians spout racism, a basketball coach put forth anti-Semitism and several high-profile spoutings of anti-gay epithets.

What surprises me, I guess, is how choosy the anti-P.C. crowd is about which hate speech it will not tolerate. Sure, there were voices of protest when the TV actor Isaiah Washington called a gay colleague a “faggot.” But corporate America didn’t pull its advertising from “Grey’s Anatomy,” as it did with Mr. Imus, did it? And when Ann Coulter likewise tagged a presidential candidate last month, she paid no real price.

In fact, when Bill Maher discussed Ms. Coulter’s remarks on his HBO show, he repeated the slur no fewer than four times himself; each mention, I must note, solicited a laugh from his audience. No one called for any sort of apology from him. (Well, actually, I did, so the following week he only used it once.)

Face it, if a Pentagon general, his salary paid with my tax dollars, can label homosexual acts as “immoral” without a call for his dismissal, who are the moral high and mighty kidding?

Our nation, historically bursting with generosity toward strangers, remains remarkably unkind toward its own. Just under our gleaming patina of inclusiveness, we harbor corroding guts. America, I tell you that it doesn’t matter how many times you brush your teeth. If your insides are rotting your breath will stink. So, how do you people choose which hate to embrace, which to forgive with a wink and a week in rehab, and which to protest? Where’s my copy of that rule book?

Let me cite a non-volatile example of how prejudice can cohabit unchecked with good intentions. I am a huge fan of David Letterman’s. I watch the opening of his show a couple of times a week and have done so for decades. Without fail, in his opening monologue or skit Mr. Letterman makes a joke about someone being fat. I kid you not. Will that destroy our nation? Should he be fired or lose his sponsors? Obviously not.

But I think that there is something deeper going on at the Letterman studio than coincidence. And, as I’ve said, I cite this example simply to illustrate that all kinds of prejudice exist in the human heart. Some are harmless. Some not so harmless. But we need to understand who we are if we wish to change. (In the interest of full disclosure, I should confess to not only being a gay American, but also a fat one. Yes, I’m a double winner.)

I urge you to look around, or better yet, listen around and become aware of the prejudice in everyday life. We are so surrounded by expressions of intolerance that I am in shock and awe that anyone noticed all these recent high-profile instances. Still, I’m gladdened because our no longer being deaf to them may signal their eventual eradication.

The real point is that you cannot harbor malice toward others and then cry foul when someone displays intolerance against you. Prejudice tolerated is intolerance encouraged. Rise up in righteousness when you witness the words and deeds of hate, but only if you are willing to rise up against them all, including your own. Otherwise suffer the slings and arrows of disrespect silently.

Harvey Fierstein is an actor and playwright.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/13/opinion/13fierstein.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

[Sarah]

Rise up in righteousness when you witness the words and deeds of hate, but only if you are willing to rise up against them all, including your own. Otherwise suffer the slings and arrows of disrespect silently.


I think anyone who disagrees with that isn't really worth arguing with.

That was a well-written article. I particularly enjoyed the close.

[skcin]

I'd like to point out a few things:

1 - The color of a person's skin is much more obvious the people than their sexuality or their nationality for the most part. I'm NOT trying to say that other groups aren't stereotyped or demeaned or discriminated against. BUT. Black (and Hispanic and Asian and Middle Eastern) people are judged by racists immediately by their appearance alone.

2 - People have the right to be ignorant. People have the right to think what they want. People have the right to teach their kids what they want to (which is sometimes frightening.) But it shocks the hell out of me that people would admit these opinions in public! If I thought gay people were evil (which I obviously don't) I wouldn't be running around telling everyone that I believed that, and then act shocked when I pissed people off. :shrug: Same with people who tell "black jokes" when they barely know you. WTF is that about? Why would you do that when you don't know how the other person feels?

[estranged4life]

I was in 6th grade before I ever had a class with someone who wasn't white. I had never known anyone black or hispanic (but I did know a couple of Japanese children).

but probably typical of the time. When I was in kindergarten I had classmates of all of races & colors (A majority of my friends throughout my school years were black).

I grew up with the majority of my kindergarten classmates - and we encountered racism all the time (My hometown Muskogee did not de-segregate school until 1970 - the year I was born. Hell in 1988)

[GateandGarden]

Bitter - party of one :laugh:

bit·ter /ˈbɪtər/

–adjective
1. having a harsh, disagreeably acrid taste, like that of aspirin, quinine, wormwood, or aloes.
2. producing one of the four basic taste sensations; not sour, sweet, or salt.
3. hard to bear; grievous; distressful: a bitter sorrow.
4. causing pain; piercing; stinging: a bitter chill.
5. characterized by intense antagonism or hostility: bitter hatred.
6. hard to admit or accept: a bitter lesson.
7. resentful or cynical: bitter words.
–noun
8. that which is bitter; bitterness: Learn to take the bitter with the sweet.
9. British. a very dry ale having a strong taste of hops.
–verb (used with object)
10. to make bitter: herbs employed to bitter vermouth.
–adverb
11. extremely; very; exceedingly: a bitter cold night.

[carrie721]

Since I’m a second-class citizen — a gay man — my seats for the ballgame of American discourse are way back in the bleachers.

i couldn't read any further.

[The Tower]

I'd like to point out a few things:

1 - The color of a person's skin is much more obvious the people than their sexuality or their nationality for the most part. I'm NOT trying to say that other groups aren't stereotyped or demeaned or discriminated against. BUT. Black (and Hispanic and Asian and Middle Eastern) people are judged by racists immediately by their appearance alone.
It's really true. As a gay white man, I am at an advantage compared to a gay black man. People have to know a little bit about me before they can start calling me a faggot, but being black is instant for those who can see.

I worked for a medical/dental employment agency and I can tell you that doctors and dentists are some of the most racist and sexist people I have ever encountered. A woman who worked with me was of Japanese decent, however, she's a second generation American and she has a very beautiful, sultry voice ala a younger Kathleen Turner. She took a call from a doctor one day to place and ad for a medical assistant, and doctor went on and on and on about how he didn't want any "chinks". Klassy.

i couldn't read any further.
Too bad- it's a great read.

[carrie721]

Too bad- it's a great read.

i can't stomach the victimhood thing anymore. too bad that's what he led off with. :laugh:

[The Tower]

i can't stomach the victimhood thing anymore. too bad that's what he led off with. :laugh:
I'm not a big fan of it either- the cool thing about it, is that he points out everyone's hypocrisy. The American Public gets all up in arms about "nappy-headed ho's"- but, "faggot" or fat jokes/commentary is just dandy.

[carrie721]

I'm not a big fan of it either- the cool thing about it, is that he points out everyone's hypocrisy. The American Public gets all up in arms about "nappy-headed ho's"- but, "faggot" or fat jokes/commentary is just dandy.

ok, i read it. i understand his comment in the context of the point he was making; i don't like it, but i understand it.

seems to me that if people of any "disenfranchised" group want to not be seen as victims, they should quit acting like victims ... is that crazy? nobody's comments about lesbians, women, overweight people, or people who are prematurely going grey diminish me as a person. it's a choice to feel/act that way.

[Sarah]

yes.. we as a society are hyper-sensitive, i think.

[GateandGarden]

seems to me that if people of any "disenfranchised" group want to not be seen as victims, they should quit acting like victims ... is that crazy? nobody's comments about lesbians, women, overweight people, or people who are prematurely going grey diminish me as a person. it's a choice to feel/act that way.I just don't see how having a more positive outlook or a better state of mind is going to help matters in a practical sense. It makes people more tolerable to talk to, but I don't know what it does beyond that.

[carrie721]

I just don't see how having a more positive outlook or a better state of mind is going to help matters in a practical sense. It makes people more tolerable to talk to, but I don't know what it does beyond that.

it's not just about having a better outlook, it's about not giving people the power to dictate who you are or define you. i'm a lesbian. i have members of my own family who used to be very close to me who think i'm going to hell and am an abomination in god's eyes. so what?

[Sarah]

I just don't see how having a more positive outlook or a better state of mind is going to help matters in a practical sense. It makes people more tolerable to talk to, but I don't know what it does beyond that.

Maybe the self-satisfaction of knowing you're better than their petty trash talk?

[GateandGarden]

it's not just about having a better outlook, it's about not giving people the power to dictate who you are or define you. i'm a lesbian. i have members of my own family who used to be very close to me who think i'm going to hell and am an abomination in god's eyes. so what?I'm not as gung-ho about the whole gay pride thing as I used to be, but I still like to give people hell if I think they're asking for it. I can't be casual about the family members, etc. who say that I'm (and not just me specifically) going to hell. I have to yell at them, literally or symbolically somehow, because I haven't stopped thinking I have to make it clear that I think they're being idiotic.

[Sarah]

I'm not as gung-ho about the whole gay pride thing as I used to be, but I still like to give people hell if I think they're asking for it. I can't be casual about the family members, etc. who say that I'm (and not just me specifically) going to hell. I have to yell at them, literally or symbolically somehow, because I haven't stopped thinking I have to make it clear that I think they're being idiotic.

I've just been told that I'm going to hell one time. The only reply I could come up with was "see you there, you judgemental piece of ****." :laugh:

If I'm going to hell, it's for all the bad things I've said and done. Not for the people I've bonked. :wavey:

[JazmenFlowers]

It's really true. As a gay white man, I am at an advantage compared to a gay black man. People have to know a little bit about me before they can start calling me a faggot, but being black is instant for those who can see.
while I do agree, here's something to chew on.

when I went to visit my grandmother in the hospital I was walking up to the door and there was a group of black guys standing around and they said "hey, is you a faggot? you is a faggot, faggot." and started laughing. it was weird because here I was going to visit my grandmother after having open heart surgery and these assholes are sitting there saying that ****. they had no clue why I was there...I could've been visiting someone on their deathbed. I mean, this wasn't any random store to be catcalling...it was a freaking hospital.

now, I had on a ballcap, a black jacket and jeans and glasses. I'm still not sure what tipped them off...srsly. I know I can have my moments, but I really thought I looked like **** so I obviously didn't look gay (that's a joke...ha ha). I didn't pay any attention to them. so, of course, I played the card and acted like a little bitch and went inside and told the guard. :cool:

[The Tower]

while I do agree, here's something to chew on.

when I went to visit my grandmother in the hospital I was walking up to the door and there was a group of black guys standing around and they said "hey, is you a faggot? you is a faggot, faggot." and started laughing. it was weird because here I was going to visit my grandmother after having open heart surgery and these assholes are sitting there saying that ****. they had no clue why I was there...I could've been visiting someone on their deathbed. I mean, this wasn't any random store to be catcalling...it was a freaking hospital.

now, I had on a ballcap, a black jacket and jeans and glasses. I'm still not sure what tipped them off...srsly. I know I can have my moments, but I really thought I looked like **** so I obviously didn't look gay (that's a joke...ha ha). I didn't pay any attention to them. so, of course, I played the card and acted like a little bitch and went inside and told the guard. :cool:
Honey, your homoradiation is at such a blazing level that even Helen Keller would be signing, "Whazzup Mary?" if you came within a hundred feet of her.....

:thumbsup: :xoxo: :xoxo:

[JazmenFlowers]

Honey, your homoradiation is at such a blazing level that even Helen Keller would be signing, "Whazzup Mary?" if you came within a hundred feet of her.....

:thumbsup: :xoxo: :xoxo:
:laugh:

bitch.

[strandinthewind]

while I do agree, here's something to chew on.

when I went to visit my grandmother in the hospital I was walking up to the door and there was a group of black guys standing around and they said "hey, is you a faggot? you is a faggot, faggot." and started laughing . . . .

That is awful :mad:

I am glad you tok some action.

People mostly do not do that in my presence and get away with it. I so call them on it. For example, I was in the airport the other day in Atlanta and this guy, who weighed 300+ pounds, was sitting next to me with his obese family. CNN was on and the report was on some gay issue. The guy turns to his wife and loudly remarks that gay people are ruining his country and AIDS will break the nation finanically. I let the first one go, but the second one got me to respond in a very straightforward tone that HIS and HIS families obesity would likey cause this country far more money and not all gay people have AIDS. Moreover, if I called him a Bubba and his family a bunch of fat ass red necks with no education, he would not like it. He apologized. I think maybe I enlightened him just a little and for that moment.

I think if many gay people, black people, etc. could find ways to do that when people heckle them, the world might advance. Sadly, there is the ever present fear that people will beat the hell out of you, so that is a deterrent.

[GateandGarden]

I think if many gay people, black people, etc. could find ways to do that when people heckle them, the world might advance. Sadly, there is the ever present fear that people will beat the hell out of you, so that is a deterrent.Sure thing. Next time someone calls me a dyke or a queer (and doesn't even insult or speak directly to me!), I'll just find some reason to throw that hate back at them unnecessarily, as two wrongs clearly make a right. It wouldn't suffice just to point out that their comment is ignorant/hateful; I must attack them for being fat, or foreign, or Pentecostal, or whatever I can pull out that might have the same effect as what they say. Certainly these exchanges will eliminate all the varied hateful and cruel sentiments in society.

[strandinthewind]

Sure thing. Next time someone calls me a dyke or a queer, I'll just find some reason to throw that hate back at them unnecessarily, as two wrongs clearly make a right. It wouldn't suffice just to point out that their comment is ignorant/hateful; I must attack them for being fat, or foreign, or Pentecostal, or whatever I can pull out that might have the same effect as what they say. Certainly these exchanges will eliminate all the varied hateful and cruel sentiments in society.

I did not throw hate back at them.

I pointed out that his obesity would likely cost the nation more in health costs than AIDS would. I noted to him that obesity and the health related problems were, I believe, the largest epidemic in this country.

I think you think I said this in a finger snapping way, which I did not. It was more conversational.

At the end of the conersation, he apologized :shrug:

[Für Elise]

Sure thing. Next time someone calls me a dyke or a queer (and doesn't even insult or speak directly to me!), I'll just find some reason to throw that hate back at them unnecessarily, as two wrongs clearly make a right. It wouldn't suffice just to point out that their comment is ignorant/hateful; I must attack them for being fat, or foreign, or Pentecostal, or whatever I can pull out that might have the same effect as what they say. Certainly these exchanges will eliminate all the varied hateful and cruel sentiments in society.hey whoever youare, thankyou for pointing out the DAMN OBVIOUS. homophobia should be stamped out but delicately and not by replacing it with hatred toward other groups. you think about how it feels as a gay person but then strand doesn't want to think about how it feels as an obese person probably feels crushed (not cause the realise they said the wrong thing) but because they're fat. i thinnk he should have said something but more delicatelyand not so insulting. now I'm loling imainigng that if they were black he would have told them off and used the "black people cost this country more" thing on them.

[GateandGarden]

now I'm loling imainigng that if they were black he would have told them off and used the "black people cost this country more" thing on them.Yeah, talk about being stuck between a rock and a hard place there.

Oh, and I'm Hillary. :wavey: I used to frequent this place but now I'm just a troll. I'm not really a self-professed troll; it's just that the term has been used in reference to me so many times that I figure I'll just take it.

[Rickypt]

ok, i read it. i understand his comment in the context of the point he was making; i don't like it, but i understand it.

seems to me that if people of any "disenfranchised" group want to not be seen as victims, they should quit acting like victims ... is that crazy? nobody's comments about lesbians, women, overweight people, or people who are prematurely going grey diminish me as a person. it's a choice to feel/act that way.

He wasn't playing the victim. He was stating the truth--whichi is that queers are second-class citizens. And that second-class status has a very real and very harmful impact on our lives. It's easy to just say ignore all the hateful terms thrown our away, but I think true empowerment is challenging them every step of the way and pointing out how they are linked with policies and actions that keep gays in the second-class category. Maybe you won't change the person who spews the comments, but you have a chance to educate others. I've been taking this **** on for almost 20 years now and I've seen people change and understand the impact of their words and actions.

[strandinthewind]

He wasn't playing the victim. He was stating the truth--whichi is that queers are second-class citizens. And that second-class status has a very real and very harmful impact on our lives. It's easy to just say ignore all the hateful terms thrown our away, but I think true empowerment is challenging them every step of the way and pointing out how they are linked with policies and actions that keep gays in the second-class category. Maybe you won't change the person who spews the comments, but you have a chance to educate others. I've been taking this **** on for almost 20 years now and I've seen people change and understand the impact of their words and actions.

Exactly and well said. See, we agree again :wavey:

[GateandGarden]

He wasn't playing the victim. He was stating the truth--whichi is that queers are second-class citizens. And that second-class status has a very real and very harmful impact on our lives. It's easy to just say ignore all the hateful terms thrown our away, but I think true empowerment is challenging them every step of the way and pointing out how they are linked with policies and actions that keep gays in the second-class category. Maybe you won't change the person who spews the comments, but you have a chance to educate others. I've been taking this **** on for almost 20 years now and I've seen people change and understand the impact of their words and actions.I agree with everything here. At the same time, I've given it some thought since Carrie first said she didn't approve of the way he wrote that article, and I figure there are different ways of dealing. I know it's obvious, but I had to start looking at it in the context of another minority group, I suppose, and I thought about Zora Neale Hurston and Richard Wright and how the latter habitually crucified the former for not talking and writing about the race problem enough. Not to give everyone some unwanted history lesson, but she didn't see any point in writing about how she (and others) were and are disadvantaged for being black, and Wright (and other critics/writers) could not understand why she didn't consider it some responsibility of hers to constantly remind everyone of the injustices committed against her race. If I look for (glaring) parallels, then it's a matter of personal preference, and not everyone will address such issues in the same way. I'm more like Wright (perhaps only in this sense), but I wouldn't criticize a Hurston. Er...does that make sense?

All of this isn't directed at you Ryan, though I'm agreeing that he was just stating a fact. I guess it's just that some people would choose not to start off with a statement like that and would avoid a tactic like that.

[Rickypt]

Er...does that make sense?


Definitely....interesting points. And certainly everyone is going to have their own approach to dealing with homophobia, etc.

I keep thinking of the Rutgers team's situation. They could have handled it the way Sparky/Carrie seem to be arguing, which is either ignoring the comments or just saying who the fukc cares what some crusty old guy has to say. Or they can do what they did--they explained how it affected them personally and why the comments were damaging and racist.

Either way is a reasonable response. In my opinion, neither way gives power to Imus. The way the Rutgers women responded took away power from him by focusing attention on the harmful impact of racial comments. They became the educators and they took the power.

[seeker007nmss]

If this has already been covered, sorry, but I didn't go through all 11 pages yet Rap lyrics has been saying far worse for far longer and nothing was ever done. Yes, what Imus said was stuiped, but far worse was said without any uproar. If you are going to clean house, then add a few record execs and musicians to the out-of-work pile.

[stargazer99]

I agree. And - I particularly love the story about the crazy "christians" who came to your house that time and freaked when they found out you were a bi racial couple :laugh:

Out of curiosity and not in a mean way, you all are successful - do you think you should get more business oran extra leg up based on your husband's race? Would that help alleviate the racial tension you feel?

I swear I am not being hateful. I am just curious to get a first hand opinion :cool:

And - how are ya?

I don't believe I particularly feel racial tension. :shrug: We've been pretty lucky in that we haven't had too much hate thrown at us (at least to our faces) for being an interracial couple. The story I told about the crazy Christian lady actually had nothing to do with my husband's race. She came to our door because we had a sign in our yard to vote against the gay marriage ban. I wasn't home at the time, so my husband had the "pleasure" of dealing with her crazy ass, as she railed on about how our sign was wrong, and that we need to vote for the ban because the bible says so, and the gays are coming after us all. I joked that she probably would have passed out on our porch if we'd both been home and she discovered that not only are we "homo lovers", but we are also committing crimes against humanity by mixing the races. But my post had nothing to do with I myself feeling "racial tension".

The point of my post was simply that while this country has come a long way since the civil rights movement, we still have a long way to go. Discrimination does still exist, and it's more prevalent than some realize or would like to believe. The fact that it took until the year 2002 for the last state (Alabama) to do away with the interracial marriage ban, not to mention that 40% of voters were against lifting that ban, perfectly illustrates that point. (BTW, I can easily believe that 40% of Alabamians(sp?) were against lifting the ban, since we once spent the night in Birmingham on our way to Florida. The disgust other diners felt toward us in a restaurant we ate at was palpable. I was seriously afraid they were going to harm us. Or, at the very least, that our server would spit in our food. I will never step foot in that state again. No offense meant to anyone here who is from Alabama.)

But it's not just the areas of the country where you expect that kind of thing to happen. I grew up in Chicago, which is pretty liberal. But it also is one of the most racially divided cities you'll find. I think we had more dirty looks and comments thrown our way while living there than we have since we moved to Texas, where I'd much more expect it.

Outside of being in an interracial marriage, I haven't experienced much discrimination based on my race. (And again, I haven't experienced an overwhelming amount of discrimination through my marriage.) As others have posted, I have had a few incidents of people of other races making derogatory comments against me because I'm white. But I don't think that can compare in any way to the discrimination many minorities experience. I've never heard one white person say they've been turned down for an apartment or house because of their color. It's happened to my husband, as well as many other minorities. I've actually had landlords brag to me about the fact that they won't rent to blacks when I've looked at apartments. During the time I was dating my husband, I moved from one apartment to another. I found out from my neighbor at my new apartment the landlord almost kicked me out after finding out my boyfriend was black. He went around to the other tenants and told them that if they were uncomfortable with it, he'd evict me. :eek:

As far as affirmative action, I suppose some might say they've been turned down for a job or promotion because of it, but I'd be willing to bet it happens far less than minorities being turned down based on their race. I really have no sympathy for whites who complain about being discriminated against due to race. (Straight) white males in particular have it easier than anybody when it comes to getting a job, house/apartment, promotion, etc. One or two cases of being "discriminated" against doesn't compare to being discriminated against on a regular basis due to the fact that you're a minority. And discrimination against minorities does happen more frequently than some whites realize.

As far as the whole "what about rappers using that language" argument, that doesn't wash either, IMO. While I think blacks who call other blacks the "N" word are doing a disservice to their race, I don't see how that ever makes it okay for someone like Don Imus to call a group of black women "nappy headed hos". Regardless of whether it was an attempt at a joke, or said with malice. How does one make the other okay? Same goes for the "there's too much political correctness in this country" argument. How is refraining from using racist remarks, or being offended by racist remarks, being "too PC"? That is a ridiculous argument, IMO.

Out of curiosity and not in a mean way, you all are successful - do you think you should get more business oran extra leg up based on your husband's race?

While we are certainly not poor, we are far from wealthy, either. My husband started his own catering company a couple years ago while out of work, and struggled to make money from it. We had very little start up money to put into the business up front, and most of the profits went back into the business, with little to nothing left over to pay the bills. He considered applying for loans (and grants, I believe?) geared toward minorities. In the end, we were so far in debt already, and were struggling to pay our bills and mortgage, so he gave the business up and went back to IT consulting contracts. But if he had applied for such loans or grants, I don't see that as using his race to get a leg up. As a woman, I could apply for similar loans/grants to start a business. And I believe there are also the same for small business owners in general. I don't see anything wrong with helping "the little/average guy" try to make it in business by giving incentives.

Same goes for money for college. Yes, there is money set aside specifically for blacks. But there is just about every kind of financial assistance out there imaginable. When I was applying for scholarships, I applied for one for Italian Americans. My mom's parents are from Italy, but she has lived her whole life here. My dad's side of the family isn't from Italy. But I was still eligible to apply for that money, and I did. Same difference, IMO. With the cost of college, it's in every student's best interest to apply for everything they may be eligible for.

What I do find offensive is things like the government giving tax breaks to companies for sending jobs overseas. I have a lot of friends who have lost jobs that were sent elsewhere. And I myself will probably lose mine the same way if I stay with the company I'm at now. I'm in the IT department, and their goal is to eventually have 75% of our IT work done in India. I don't necessarily blame the companies for taking advantage of that tax break. (Well, maybe I do resent it to some degree. ;-) But I do resent the government for making it so attractive for companies to send jobs overseas, particularly when we have so many people in the U.S. out of work. And also for giving business to their already wealthy friends' companies, ala Halliburton. That to me is a travesty. Giving incentives to minorities to build business for themselves isn't, IMO.

[strandinthewind]

^^^^^^

OMG - thanks for that very informative reply. Just goes to show you that you learn something new everyday.

As for companies getting those tax breaks - I say lynch the bastards. I am all for helping out other countries, etc. -- but those should be, for the most part, American jobs and taking advantage, for the most part, of cheaper, in some cases almost slave, wages in other, less developed countries is a travesty :mad: Moreover, have you ever actually gotten one of the Indians on the phone -- maybe they are not all as bad at English as the ones I have gotten, but the ones i have gotten were not able to communicate with me very well. I did not want to be rude or cause a scene because that is that person's job, but I usually have to ask for another person, preferably one on America. So, I cannot see how that benefits the companies to any significant degree.

[estranged4life]

Same goes for money for college. Yes, there is money set aside specifically for blacks. But there is just about every kind of financial assistance out there imaginable. When I was applying for scholarships, I applied for one for Italian Americans. My mom's parents are from Italy, but she has lived her whole life here. My dad's side of the family isn't from Italy. But I was still eligible to apply for that money, and I did. Same difference, IMO. With the cost of college, it's in every student's best interest to apply for everything they may be eligible for.


Right now, If I wanted to go back to school I can go to U of A (University of Arkansas at Fayetteville) almost free of charge since I am on the Cherokee Nation tribal roles.

Maybe someday...

[strandinthewind]

After Imus storm, rap at the fore

Story Highlights• Critics of rap, hip-hop questioning genre's language

• Don Imus fired for racially, sexually insensitive comments
• Rutgers pastor: Must work on "larger problem"
• Mogul Russell Simmons: Should look at context of rap

NEW YORK (AP) -- Fighting in vain to keep his job, radio host Don Imus claimed that rappers routinely "defame and demean black women" and call them "worse names than I ever did."

That's an argument many people made as the Imus fallout intensified, culminating with his firing Thursday for labeling the Rutgers women's basketball team "nappy-headed hos." Now that Imus has been silenced (for the moment), some critics are moving down the radio dial to take on hip-hop, boosting the growing movement against harmful themes in rap.

"We all know where the real battleground is," wrote Kansas City Star columnist Jason Whitlock. "We know that the gangsta rappers and their followers in the athletic world have far bigger platforms to negatively define us than some old white man with a bad radio show."

"We have to begin working on a response to the larger problem," said the Rev. DeForest B. Soaries Jr., who as pastor of the Rutgers coach helped mediate the Imus imbroglio. Soaries announced Friday that he is organizing a nationwide initiative to address the culture that "has produced language that has denigrated women."

The larger problem was alluded to by CBS President and Chief Executive Officer Leslie Moonves when he announced Imus' firing: "The effect language like this has on our young people, particularly young women of color trying to make their way in this society ... has weighed most heavily on our minds as we made our decision."

Pointing out that the rapper Mims uses "ho" and worse epithets in his chart-topping song "This Is Why I'm Hot," columnist Michelle Malkin asked: "What kind of relief do we get from this deadening, coarsening, dehumanizing barrage?"

The Rev. Al Sharpton, among the loudest critics calling for Imus' termination, indicated that entertainment is the next battleground. "We will not stop until we make it clear that no one should denigrate women," he said after Imus' firing. "We must deal with the fact that ho and the b-word are words that are wrong from anybody's lips.

"It would be wrong if we stopped here and acted like Imus was the only problem. There are others that need to get this same message."

Rappers' reality
It is a message that was spreading even before Imus' comments.

After "Seinfeld" actor Michael Richards was castigated for a racist on-stage rant, the New York City Council passed a symbolic resolution banning the n-word, and other cities around the country have passed similar measures.

Cultural critic, author and columnist Stanley Crouch, a longtime foe of rap music, suspected the Imus ordeal would galvanize young black women across the country. He said a key moment was when the Rutgers players appeared at a news conference this week -- poised, dignified and defying stereotypes seen in rap videos and "dumb" comedies.

"When the public got to see these women, what they were, it was kind of shocking," Crouch said. "It made accepting the denigration not quite as comfortable as it had been for far too long."

Some defenders of rap music and hip-hop culture, such as the pioneering mogul Russell Simmons, deny any connection between Imus and hip-hop. They describe rap lyrics as reflections of the violent, drug-plagued, hopeless environments that many rappers come from. Instead of criticizing rappers, defenders say, critics should improve their reality.

"Comparing Don Imus' language with hip-hop artists' poetic expression is misguided and inaccurate and feeds into a mindset that can be a catalyst for unwarranted, rampant censorship," Simmons said in a statement Friday.

The superstar rapper Snoop Dogg also denied any connection to Imus. "(Rappers) are not talking about no collegiate basketball girls who have made it to the next level in education and sports," he told MTV.com. "We're talking about hos that's in the 'hood that ain't doing ---- that's trying to get a n---- for his money."

Long-standing criticism
Criticism of rap is nothing new -- it began soon after the music emerged from New York City's underclass more than 30 years ago.

In 1993, the rapper-turned-actor Queen Latifah challenged rap's misogyny in her hit song "U.N.I.T.Y." That same year, C. Delores Tucker, who was chairwoman of the National Political Congress of Black Women Inc., led an organized movement -- which included Congressional hearings -- condemning sexist and violent rap.

That same year, the Rev. Calvin Butts of the Abyssinian Baptist Church in Harlem drove a steamroller over a pile of tapes and CDs.

In 2004, students at Spelman College, a black women's college in Atlanta, became upset over rapper Nelly's video for his song "Tip Drill," in which he cavorts with strippers and swipes a credit card between one woman's buttocks. The rapper wanted to hold a campus bone marrow drive for his ailing sister, but students demanded he first participate in a discussion about the video's troubling images. Nelly declined.

In 2005, Essence magazine launched its "Take Back the Music" campaign. Writers such as Joan Morgan and Kierna Mayo and filmmaker Byron Hurt also have tackled the issue recently.

T. Denean Sharpley-Whiting, author of "Pimps Up, Ho's Down: Hip Hop's Hold on Young Black Women" and a professor at Vanderbilt University, said many black women resist rap music and hip-hop culture, but their efforts are largely ignored by mainstream media. As an example, the professor pointed to "Rap Sessions," the 10-city tour in which she's participating. She said the tour and its central question -- does hip-hop hate women? -- have gotten very little mainstream media coverage.

"It's only when we interface with a powerful white media personality like Imus that the issue is raised and the question turns to 'Why aren't you as vociferous in your critique of hip-hop?' We have been! You've been listening to the music but you haven't been listening to the protests from us."

Crouch said that change in rap music and entertainment likely won't come fast, because corporations are still profiting from the business -- but it's coming.

"I've been on (rappers) for 20 years," Crouch said. "I was in the civil rights movement. I know it takes a long time when you're standing up against extraordinary money and great power. But we're beginning to see a shift."


Find this article at:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/SHOWBIZ/Music/04/16/imus.rap.ap/index.html

[skcin]

The superstar rapper Snoop Dogg also denied any connection to Imus. "(Rappers) are not talking about no collegiate basketball girls who have made it to the next level in education and sports," he told MTV.com. "We're talking about hos that's in the 'hood that ain't doing ---- that's trying to get a n---- for his money."

Yes! :laugh: Snoop agrees with me!


I'm curious why more people haven't brought up that Sharpton has said racist things about Jews - why? I don't know what he said, so maybe someone could enlighten me. What did he say? Was it recently? Where did he say it?

[strandinthewind]

Yes! :laugh: Snoop agrees with me!


I'm curious why more people haven't brought up that Sharpton has said racist things about Jews - why? I don't know what he said, so maybe someone could enlighten me. What did he say? Was it recently? Where did he say it?

He called NYC Hymietown (a slur on Jews) awhile back. This differs from Imus' remarks because he did not insult a specific group of people with an untruth.

[The Tower]

He called NYC Hymietown (a slur on Jews) awhile back. This differs from Imus' remarks because he did not insult a specific group of people with an untruth.
Jesse Jackson referred to New York City as "Hymietown"- not Sharpton.

[strandinthewind]

Jesse Jackson referred to New York City as "Hymietown"- not Sharpton.

Oops - mea culpa

[sparky]

The media is so suspicious.

Why even film Sharpton or Jackson? Sharpton is a nototrious race baiter - just Wikipedia that scumbag and look for Tawana Brawley. Jackson is is above all else a self promoter and an adulterer. The fact that he gave Clinton "spiritual counseling" after the Lewsinsky affair alone discredits him so much I can't believe he shows his face in public. Snoop? Snoop Dogg?:laugh:
How many times has he been arrested for drugs and concealed weapons charges? He produces porn, for God's sake. He has a lot of gall talking about demeaning women.

A trio of moral paragons, those guys.

What a clown show.

[skcin]

^ How dare you imply that we should discount Snoop Dog's comments! :laugh: I laughed too. I still don't understand why these celebrities feel the need to speak out soley because they're black. Snoop, Al Roker, Whoopi - who's next? It's one thing if you're a politician (although I rarely care what they have to say either) but an actor/musician/rapper? Please STFU.