That's So Gay

[skcin]

Thoughts?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17388702/?GT1=9145

That’s so gay’ prompts a lawsuit
Student sent to principal’s office insists it was not a homophobic putdown
Feb 28, 2007
SANTA ROSA, Calif. - When a few classmates razzed Rebekah Rice about her Mormon upbringing with questions such as, "Do you have 10 moms?" she shot back: "That's so gay."

Those three words landed the high school freshman in the principal's office and resulted in a lawsuit that raises this question: When do playground insults used every day all over America cross the line into hate speech that must be stamped out?

After Rice got a warning and a notation in her file, her parents sued, claiming officials at Santa Rosa's Maria Carillo High violated their daughter's First Amendment rights when they disciplined her for uttering a phrase "which enjoys widespread currency in youth culture," according to court documents.

Testifying last week about the 2002 incident, Rice, now 18, said that when she uttered those words, she was not referring to anyone's sexual orientation. She said the phrase meant: "That's so stupid, that's so silly, that's so dumb."

But school officials say they took a strict stand against the putdown after two boys were paid to beat up a gay student the year before.

"The district has a statutory duty to protect gay students from harassment," the district's lawyers argued in a legal brief. "In furtherance of this goal, prohibition of the phrase 'That's so gay' ... was a reasonable regulation."

Superior Court Judge Elaine Rushing plans to issue a ruling in the non-jury trial after final written arguments are submitted in April. Her gag order prevents the two sides from discussing the case.

A confusing set of terms
Derogatory terms for homosexuality have long been used as insults. But the landscape has become confusing in recent years as minority groups have tried to reclaim terms like "queer," "ghetto" and the n-word.

In recent years, gay rights advocates and educators have tried teaching students that it is hurtful to use the word "gay" as an all-purpose term for something disagreeable. At Berkeley High School, a gay student club passed out buttons with the words "That's so gay" crossed out to get their classmates to stop using them.

Rick Ayers, a retired teacher who helped compile and publish the "Berkeley High School Slang Dictionary," a compendium of trendy teen talk circa 2001, said educating students about offensive language is preferable to policing their speech.


"I wouldn't be surprised if this girl didn't even know the origin of that term," he said. "The kids who get caught saying it will claim it's been decontextualized, but others will say, `No, you know what that means.' It's quite talked about."

Rice's parents, Elden and Katherine Rice, also claim the public high school employed a double-standard because, they say, administrators never sought to shield Rebekah from teasing based on Mormon stereotypes.

Daughter singled out, parents say
In addition, the Rices say their daughter was singled out because of the family's conservative views on sexuality. They are seeking unspecified damages and want the disciplinary notation expunged from Rebekah's school record.

Eliza Byard, deputy executive director of the New York-based Gay, Lesbian and Straight Education Network, said nearly nine out of 10 gay students her organization surveyed in 2005 reported hearing "That's so gay" or "You're so gay" frequently.

"It bothers them a lot," Byard said. "As odd or funny as the phrase sounds, imagine what it feels like to be in a setting where you consistently hear it used to describe something undesirable or stupid, and it also refers to you."

She said it is OK to discipline students for using the phrase after efforts have been made to educate them.

"The job of a school is to deal proactively and consistently with all forms of bullying, name-calling and harassment," she said.

Jordan Lorence, an attorney with the Alliance Defense Fund, a Christian legal organization, agreed "That's so gay" carries a negative meaning and said he would not want his children to say it. But he said formal discipline is not the answer.

"Reasonable people should say, `Let's put a stop to this kind of search-and-destroy mission by school officials for everything that is politically incorrect,'" he said.

[LikeAWillow]

Good for the school for trying to put a stop to it. I can't stand it when people use phrases like "That's so gay" or "That's so retarded." Those same people would be appalled, hopefully at least, to hear things like "That's so black", "That's so Jewish", "That's so *insert minority here*" tossed around.

[ontheEdgeof17]

I love how they can type out words and phrases that are downgrading to homosexuals, but when it comes to the word "nigger", they put "n-word". :rolleyes:

[Sarah]

I hate how everybody in America is scared of being offended.

We need to institute an "IN YOUR FACE, PANSY" day.. like casual Friday, where people say whatever they want without worrying that it hurts someone else's "feelings". This walking-on-eggshells, god-forbid-i-offend-someone, careful-what-you-say-all-the-time **** is for the birds, man.

Is it rude to say gay, retard, nigger, jew..blahblahblah? Yeah. Is it a CRIME? Hell no, and rightfully so. The reality is that we're getting closer and closer to losing our free speech rights every time people whine about being offended.

[sara1998]

I think we, as a nation, are getting too politically correct. Everyone's feelings get too hurt too quickly. I say "that's gay" 5 times a day, and I have no ill feelings against homosexual people.... it's just a figure of speech.

[HomerMcvie]

This brings to mind an episode of Everybody Loves Raymond, where they keep telling Amy(Robert's wife) that she's "queer". I was very surprised that they used that word, without ruffling someone's overly-sensitive feathers.

[mikeschmike]

I use that phrase, but not to describe something as dumb or idiotic. I use it literally, like saying Bravo is the gayest network on TV. Truly, it is. :wavey:

I do say "that's so retarded" a lot, but again I mean it in the literal sense. "Retarded, mentally deficient, and nonsensica"l fit together a lot better then "dumb, stupid, and gay".

[sara1998]

I hate how everybody in America is scared of being offended.

We need to institute an "IN YOUR FACE, PANSY" day.. like casual Friday, where people say whatever they want without worrying that it hurts someone else's "feelings". This walking-on-eggshells, god-forbid-i-offend-someone, careful-what-you-say-all-the-time **** is for the birds, man.

Is it rude to say gay, retard, nigger, jew..blahblahblah? Yeah. Is it a CRIME? Hell no, and rightfully so. The reality is that we're getting closer and closer to losing our free speech rights every time people whine about being offended.

I agree. Suck it up people. So, black people call me a cracker. I really don't give a damn.

[sara1998]

I do say "that's so retarded" a lot, but again I mean it in the literal sense. "Retarded, mentally deficient, and nonsensica"l fit together a lot better then "dumb, stupid, and gay".
Same difference as saying something is gay. But the ACLU and schools aren't having a fit to make the kids stop saying that. I say that's retarded a lot also, and I have a family member with autism. I don't have anything against him, it's used as a figure of speech.

[Johnny Stew]

While I do think there are times when we are too politically correct (sometimes a joke IS just a joke, people), given the unbridled amount of prejudice and discrimination in this country, there should be lines drawn as to what is socially acceptable and what isn't.

No, it shouldn't be a crime to say those things, but what does it hurt to be mindful of other people's feelings? I always have to wonder how callous and miserable someone has to be in their own life, to not care about others.

[DrummerDeanna]

Good for the school for trying to put a stop to it. I can't stand it when people use phrases like "That's so gay" or "That's so retarded." Those same people would be appalled, hopefully at least, to hear things like "That's so black", "That's so Jewish", "That's so *insert minority here*" tossed around.

My sister uses this exact argument with her kids (she teaches sixth grade) in trying to get them to stop using the term "it's so gay" Because they do...all. the. time.

[skcin]

I stopped saying "that's retarded" when I worked with retarded kids. Now it's creeping back into my dialogue, not sure how or why. I used to say "that's gay" all the time, then I felt weird about it. Until my gay boyfriend Ryan was talking about a party he was at & said "It was so f*cking gay, I had to leave." :shrug:

So, I dunno. If I had kids, I wouldn't want them running around yelling "you're gay, you're a retard, that's gay, stop being so retarded." But I think a lawsuit is a bit much. People sue everyone for everything these days.

[sara1998]

I always have to wonder how callous and miserable someone has to be in their own life, to not care about others.

Yes, however, if one is ok with thier sexuality, why take the statement, not directed at someone who is homosexual, and turn it into a personal insult? Im' not callous or miserable, but I use the term frequently. I mean no harm with it. It's just my opinion that people need to have thicker skin.

[sara1998]

People sue everyone for everything these days.
The lawsuit is a bit much, but they have a valid point: None of the other kids were being disciplined for teasing about the Mormon religion. :shrug:

[Sarah]

No, it shouldn't be a crime to say those things, but what does it hurt to be mindful of other people's feelings? I always have to wonder how callous and miserable someone has to be in their own life, to not care about others.

In a way, I feel like that comes back to that ****ty parenting we were discussing, Stew.

Pfft. Breeders. ;)

It doesn't hurt to be mindful of feelings, and I usually am. I'm a pretty sensitive person.. emotionally. But not hypersensitive to the point that figures of speech put me up in arms.

[sparky]

I'm on the fence with this one. On one hand, I am extremely down on the whole politically correct bs. I am so politically incorrect that I offend people all the time. On the other hand, I know for a fact that there is an undercurrent to using that phrase for some people. For adolescent males, it's a way to distinguish themselves from a subject that makes them uncomfortable for countless reasons. It's a not so subtle putdown of homos and some but not all people who use the phrase are saying that there is something really wrong and bad about homos. And that can reinforce an environmental belief that can encourage more extreme expressions of that sentiment. When an entire group uses that as a catchall phrase...its hard to escape that the subtext is someone's identity or sexual orientation is equated with something wrong, not okay, or screwed up, its not a far stretch to feel its okay to lash out at those people. Not always. But it can be. Get a pack of 16 year old football players all wound up and the wrong thing gets said - pretty soon some nerdy, nelly gay boy's brains are on the cement. I'm saying this knowing how defenseless some scared gay adolescents can be.

There is a total double standard employed like other people have mentioned. People would be having a damned cow if there was catch phrase like "That's so nig" or "That's so kike". Can you imagine the uproar?

I see both sides of it. Language is not by definition violent and damaging, but it sure can express hostility well. Its all in the delivery and intent. And homo teenagers and younger kids are sometimes more vulnerable than others, even if they don't show it.

I'm not sure about banning speech. It seems extreme to me. Nonetheless, everyday some poor queer teenager is getting his or her head bashed in somewhere in the world. And frequently the schools don't give a damn about protecting them. So I don't know what the solution is. They use of such phrases doesn't always make those bad things happen, but I think the belief that they are always harmless can help foster an environment where such violence is probably more likely to take place.

[Beachwood Mac]

The meanings off all these words have taken on new meanings over the years. Gay never started out as a word to describe "homosexuals". Try reading a myspace account of a teenager. My 16 year old surfer nephew and all his lily tan friends throw "nigga" around like it was their name.

[strandinthewind]

I'm on the fence with this one . . . .

You say alot when your mouth is always full - faggot :p

[Sarah]

It doesn't matter in which context we use the words. In our minds, we still separate ourselves by identifying ourselves as gay, straight, black, white, intelligent, or delayed. There is no unity, so it really just doesn't matter, imo. When people stop identifying themselves with labels, the generalized derogatory remarks will stop.

That being said, I'll see you all in frozen hell, cuz it ain't gonna happen.

[sparky]

You say alot when your mouth is always full - faggot :p

Good thing we can't see yer jizz stache while you're typing, Suzanne.

[strandinthewind]

Good thing we can't see yer jizz stache while you're typing, Suzanne.

It's a sanchez :xoxo: :xoxo: :xoxo:

[sparky]

It's a sanchez :xoxo: :xoxo: :xoxo:

Who says no one is as foul as Diss was?
You still have the grossest ledgie tiara, you snowball queen.:woohoo:

[Johnny Stew]

Yes, however, if one is ok with thier sexuality, why take the statement, not directed at someone who is homosexual, and turn it into a personal insult? Im' not callous or miserable, but I use the term frequently. I mean no harm with it. It's just my opinion that people need to have thicker skin."Faggot" hurt me to the core when I was a teenager. My sexual orientation was something I struggled with to the point that I almost killed myself over it.
So, back then, the word hurt. A lot.

Now that I'm older, I know it's just a word and only has power if you let it.
But I remember how that 15 year old felt, and it really does pain me to think that there are other kids somewhere going through what I did. "That's so gay" has a negative connotation and I'm sure that's not lost on the kids going through the difficulties of growing up gay. Same with "that's so retarded."

I'd rather err on the side of caution, I guess.

And I absolutely want to apologize, Maria, if I made it sound like I thought you were being callous or that you must be a miserable person. I adore you. That certainly wasn't directed at you.

[skcin]

^ You're a sick bastard, Strand. :lol:


When people say "that's gay," they most likely mean that's stupid, or ridiculous, or uncool. So I could see how a gay person would be offended - you're equating being gay with being stupid or abnormal :shrug: But like Terry said, gay used to mean happy. Of course, I damn well know people aren't saying "that's so f*cking happy!" But I don't think that people mean to direct it towards gay people either. I'm so confused.

[strandinthewind]

Who says no one is as foul as Diss was?
You still have the grossest ledgie tiara, you snowball queen.:woohoo:

Did you use Purell on that fence before you straddled it? And, exactly how long were you riding it?

PERV HIJACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:angel: :angel:

[Johnny Stew]

In a way, I feel like that comes back to that ****ty parenting we were discussing, Stew.

Pfft. Breeders. ;)You're absolutely right, Sarah. Learning right and wrong should absolutely begin and end at home. Teachers, school staff, etc., shouldn't have to teach a child morality.
Too bad so many parents don't agree.

It doesn't hurt to be mindful of feelings, and I usually am. I'm a pretty sensitive person.. emotionally. But not hypersensitive to the point that figures of speech put me up in arms.It's a definite grey area. How much do we let slide, and where do we draw the line? What's "just the way kids talk" and what's a prejudice-motivated slur?

Not an easy thing to define at all!

[strandinthewind]

Interestingly, it is all kids. I have personally witness black kids ganging up on white kids this way. Yet, they are kind of given a free pass for it.

In the end, kids are mean and there is not much we can do about it other than try to educate them.

[skcin]

Interestingly, it is all kids. I have personally witness black kids ganging up on white kids this way. Yet, they are kind of given a free pass for it.

In the end, kids are mean and there is not much we can do about it other than try to educate them.

"Now Strand, it's not nice to call Sparky a faggot. Even if he is one."





:D

[BTFLCHLD]

Good thing we can't see yer jizz stache while you're typing, Suzanne. Not part of the strandy email distribution list, eh? You would not believe how many cam angles he is capable of.

[Sarah]

It's a definite grey area. How much do we let slide, and where do we draw the line? What's "just the way kids talk" and what's a prejudice-motivated slur?

It really is a grey area. And to be honest, I don't think there is a way to decide how to draw the line until it gets to the point of hate crime.

As bad as a slur is, it's like.. if someone has that in their soul anyway, does it matter to them if someone tells them they're bad? I'm having a hard time putting my thoughts into words on this. Freedom of speech is a double edged sword, for sure. It's a shame that people say some of the things they do, but it's even more of a shame that everyone feels the need to care about what everyone else thinks of them.

On a lighter note, I'm going to start saying "that's so hetero" for stuff that's stupid and see if it catches on. I bet it will, because a lot of my friends tend to pick up on phrases that I use (not because I'm sooooo cool.. just because i say a lot of whack ****).

[strandinthewind]

"Now Strand, it's not nice to call Sparky a faggot. Even if he is one."





:D

How's about anal aviating rump ranger who has to use the words "highest, loftiest, upmost, uppermost" because she can't even say the word top - YEEEE HAAAAAAA :woohoo:

[strandinthewind]

. . . On a lighter note, I'm going to start saying "that's so hetero" for stuff that's stupid and see if it catches on. I bet it will, because a lot of my friends tend to pick up on phrases that I use (not because I'm sooooo cool.. just because i say a lot of whack ****).


But, isn't that phrase used in a somewhat demeaning manner now. I mean the whole "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy" was premised on fat straight guys with bad hygeine, which is a stereotype :shrug: I mean how many people do not consider gay people to have waaaayyy more panache than any random straight person :shrug:

[ryan8472]

Interestingly, it is all kids. I have personally witness black kids ganging up on white kids this way. Yet, they are kind of given a free pass for it.

In the end, kids are mean and there is not much we can do about it other than try to educate them.

Well we can keep doing nothing, which in turn solves nothing, or parents can start teaching their children how to act. Then again, we don't like to tell parents how to raise their kids. Maybe we should? :shrug: We can't beat the kids, because they'll keep doing the same to their kids. We can't just remind them not to do something, because children these days have attention spans of a goldfish because of the "learning disabilities" they are told they have. And we certainly can't discuss homosexuality and diversity in health class, because the parents will **** bricks. So therefore, I guess we just need to place computer chips in children's brains. :laugh:

[BTFLCHLD]

How's about anal aviating rump ranger who has to use the words "highest, loftiest, upmost, uppermost" because she can't even say the word top - YEEEE HAAAAAAA :woohoo: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Sarah]

strand, i think queer eye is stereotypical on both sides of the aisle. not all straight men are slobs, and not all gay men are queens. 2 wrongs don't make a right.. i guess it's just even there.

and teaching about diversity in health class.. it's a shame we don't. but i mean, i totally see the parents argument here. truly. if we keep teaching our kids about being gay, they'll just keep growing up gay and and having gay kids... oh wait. :laugh:

/sarcasm

[skcin]

It really is a grey area. And to be honest, I don't think there is a way to decide how to draw the line until it gets to the point of hate crime.

As bad as a slur is, it's like.. if someone has that in their soul anyway, does it matter to them if someone tells them they're bad? I'm having a hard time putting my thoughts into words on this. Freedom of speech is a double edged sword, for sure. It's a shame that people say some of the things they do, but it's even more of a shame that everyone feels the need to care about what everyone else thinks of them.

On a lighter note, I'm going to start saying "that's so hetero" for stuff that's stupid and see if it catches on. I bet it will, because a lot of my friends tend to pick up on phrases that I use (not because I'm sooooo cool.. just because i say a lot of whack ****).

But, isn't that phrase used in a somewhat demeaning manner now. I mean the whole "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy" was premised on fat straight guys with bad hygeine, which is a stereotype :shrug: I mean how many people do not consider gay people to have waaaayyy more panache than any random straight person :shrug:


Yeah, it kind of is a put down to say a guy's hetero - it implies that he can't dress himself, is out of shape, has bad hair & skin. :laugh:

People say things all the time - they may be ignorant to the fact that it's offensive, or tacky, or in poor taste. Maybe they don't care. I honestly don't think they hate the demographic to which they're referring to. For the most part anyway.

"He Jewed me on the price."

"I'm not buying that Jap Crap."

"She drives a Rice Burner."

"That's mighty white of you."


Am I the only one who's heard people say the above? :shrug: I don't think it's cool to say these things, but I'm not going to get all holier-than-thou on people who do.

[sparky]

How's about anal aviating rump ranger who has to use the words "highest, loftiest, upmost, uppermost" because she can't even say the word top - YEEEE HAAAAAAA :woohoo:

"loftiest, upmost and uppermost"? My vocabulary is better than that.
And I'll be happy to hoot to the rooftops the word TOP as I'm busting your Sugarbaker keister and showing you what for.:xoxo: :wavey:

[strandinthewind]

Well we can keep doing nothing, which in turn solves nothing, or parents can start teaching their children how to act. Then again, we don't like to tell parents how to raise their kids. Maybe we should? :shrug: We can't beat the kids, because they'll keep doing the same to their kids. We can't just remind them not to do something, because children these days have attention spans of a goldfish because of the "learning disabilities" they are told they have. And we certainly can't discuss homosexuality and diversity in health class, because the parents will **** bricks. So therefore, I guess we just need to place computer chips in children's brains. :laugh:

Oh - I agree education is the deal. But, that would require parents to give a crap and if they did, to actually like gay people, which many do not, esp. where their kids are concerned.

[strandinthewind]

"loftiest, upmost and uppermost"? My vocabulary is better than that.
And I'll be happy to hoot to the rooftops the word TOP as I'm busting your Sugarbaker keister and showing you what for.:xoxo: :wavey:

I am limping at the very thought :rolleyes:

[sparky]

"He Jewed me on the price."

"I'm not buying that Jap Crap."

"She drives a Rice Burner."

"That's mighty white of you."


Am I the only one who's heard people say the above? :shrug:

I think I heard you say all of those over two hours of mexican food and tequila.:laugh:

[Sarah]

"He Jewed me on the price."

i am totally guilty (lol, typed quilty.. like tp) of saying similar to the above. i guess that kind of stuff just slips. and it's easy to make slips like that when there aren't a lot of different cultures in your area.

but there again.. it has nothing to do with the Jewish religion, other than at some point, the cheap stereotype was applied to them.

these phrases are so widely understood. it's amazing how language works, really.

[strandinthewind]

. . . ."He Jewed me on the price."


Interestingly, stereotyopes are grounded in reality. Even the Jews joke about how cheap they are - see any Mel Brooks movie, The Nanny, Seinfeld, and so on. So, I think the expression is okay - though I would be hesitant to use it because some thin skinned a$$hole might get offended and call me anti-S. -- which is horseshiitte

[skcin]

I think I heard you say all of those over two hours of mexican food and tequila.:laugh:

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Interestingly, stereotyopes are grounded in reality. Even the Jews joke about how cheap they are - see any Mel Brooks movie, The Nanny, Seinfeld, and so on. So, I think the expression is okay - though I would be hesitant to use it because some thin skinned a$$hole might get offended and call me anti-S. -- which is horseshiitte

Abnd most black people joke about how they like watermelon. I would be hesistant to say that though. Since I'm white. Although, I have no problem with joking that Polish people are stupid - since I'm part Polish. But I'm not stupid. Wait......

[strandinthewind]

. . . Although, I have no problem with joking that Polish people are stupid - since I'm part Polish. But I'm not stupid. Wait......

2 + 2 = ? :wavey:

[skcin]

It's like the Geico commercials. So easy a caveman could do it.

"And that upsets you?"

"Yes. How would you feel if it said 'so easy a therapist could do it'."

"Well, that commercial wouldn't make sense to me."

"Why? Because therapists are smart?"

Stony silence.

[cliffdweller]

We need to institute an "IN YOUR FACE, PANSY" day.. like casual Friday, where people say whatever they want without worrying that it hurts someone else's "feelings". This walking-on-eggshells, god-forbid-i-offend-someone, careful-what-you-say-all-the-time **** is for the birds, man.

Yeah, you're right. What sensitive assholes. I think provoking people with hateful speech is a great idea! Man, I certainly know that I love to be called derogatory names and treated like ****, I mean like, ya know, it's all good, right?

Please.

:rolleyes:

[Sarah]

Yeah, you're right. What sensitive assholes. I think provoking people with hateful speech is a great idea! Man, I certainly know that I love to be called derogatory names and treated like ****, I mean like, ya know, it's all good, right?

Please.

:rolleyes:


Ah, go to hell. You're just as guilty, as witnessed here.

Holier than Thou likes to provoke a little, too, eh? :lol: Save it, cuz I'm totally not sorry.

[trackaghost]

A DJ here in England got in trouble for calling something gay (meaning it was lame) on air. Apparently there were loads of complaints about it.
I have quite a few gay friends who all thought it was ridiculous (as did I) but some people are much more sensitive about it, it seems, and don't think it's funny at all.

[amber]

Good for the school for trying to put a stop to it. I can't stand it when people use phrases like "That's so gay" or "That's so retarded." Those same people would be appalled, hopefully at least, to hear things like "That's so black", "That's so Jewish", "That's so *insert minority here*" tossed around.

Those are two of my favorite phrases. I think I'll start saying "That's so gayly retarded"

Anyway, this thread is long, and I don't have that kinda time, and I'm sure bunches of people made the points that the phrase shouldn't be said, and why.
That just reminded me of that time in the music store when that gay worker guy got sooooo offended when I said "that's so gay" that dogs can come in the store but not me on my rollerblades, and told me to "roll my big butt on outta there". :laugh:

I still think he was hella lame, though. I don't like when certain groups of people "own" words. That being said, sometimes I try to watch my mouth because obviously I don't want to offend anyone, especially as I am not prejudiced against either gay or mentally challenged people. Well, I'm kinda prejudiced against mentally handicapped people who don't actually have anything medically wrong with them, and sometimes really, really, really happy people (gay) piss me off, but overall, not so much.

It's unfortunate that such a funny thing to say (to me) originated as an insult to a group of people, homosexuals. However, to me, "gay" in that context doesn't even make me think of gay people, it never did. It just means "lame" in my head. I realize that doesn't change the actual meaning of the word. :laugh:

It's hella retarded that people are so sensitive about the words, but I understand. Actually, retarded isn't even the word for mentally challenged people anymore, it is just back to its original meaning, which was "slow", right? So if I want to say something is "slow", it seems that I can use retarded.

It doesn't really matter, I'll still say those things. Because I'm not talking about, or referring to, either actual gay or actually mentally challenged people when I say them.

[Sarah]

Education might be the answer. But like I said, kids are often mean and thick-headed. In the world today, you need to have a thick skin if you're different. Unfortunately, there won't always be a school administrator to stick up for homosexuals or other minority groups. So I don't think being coddled is necessarily the answer. On the flipside, the "that's so gay" kid won't always have parents to sue when anyone crosses them. It might not be fair, but that's life. If the past thirty years are any indication, things should ultimately look better for future generations.

I don't think this was about protecting homosexuals, so much as making an example out of the girl. A gay kid got beaten up by kids in that school, obviously there are "PR" problems that go along with that, and the school wants to come across as zero tolerance on that particular issue. So this girl says gay, and gets in trouble for it. That's lame, point blank. It doesn't even have anything to do with gay people at all really. If she got in trouble for saying that, the religious taunts should have been punished as well.

[Beachwood Mac]

I have been involved with the Special Olympics organization since 1988. When I first started, the acceptable term was Mental Retardation to describe our athletes. In 2003 Special Olympics athletes from around the world held a Global Athlete's Congress, in conjunction with the World Games in Dublin, Ireland. Out of this meeting of athletes came a change in terminology that would be used to describe participants in Special Olympics. The mission statement was changed to reflect the athlete's wishes. This is how it is defined on the Special Olympics website:

Why did Special Olympics update its terminology from “mental retardation” to “intellectual disabilities”? In response to a call from our athletes and the growing social unacceptability of the term “mental retardation” around the world, Special Olympics has adopted the term “intellectual disabilities” when referring to the people with whom we serve. The word “mental” can be confused with the term “mental illness” and the word “retardation” is associated with offensive terms such as “retard” or “retarded.”

[carrie721]

Ah, go to hell. You're just as guilty, as witnessed here.

Holier than Thou likes to provoke a little, too, eh? :lol: Save it, cuz I'm totally not sorry.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[DavidMn]

I think its good that the school put a quick stop to this, but I'm a little worried about the whole lawsuit thing. We cant sue everyone at the drop of a hat.

[markolas]

Uh, well, all I can say is...feel free to use a gay slur around me, and see what happens. You'll be picking yourself, and probably your teeth, up off the ground.

[amber]

Uh, well, all I can say is...feel free to use a gay slur around me, and see what happens. You'll be picking yourself, and probably your teeth, up off the ground.

Do you consider "That's so gay!" to be a gay slur? Should I roll my big butt on outta here?

[markolas]

And I'll tell you something else. If I lived in a less gay-friendly area (which is most of the United States), I'd probably be packing heat. I think more gay people should own handguns, really. Maybe a few fagbashers with bullets in their brains would persuade some of you to not be so callous. :rolleyes:

[markolas]

Do you consider "That's so gay!" to be a gay slur? Should I roll my big butt on outta here?

Honestly, I've never actually heard anyone say it. But I don't hang out with 16-year olds, so...:shrug: I was vaguely aware that it's a popular thing for kids to say, but yes, I think it's a slur.

[estranged4life]

It's like the Geico commercials. So easy a caveman could do it.

"And that upsets you?"

"Yes. How would you feel if it said 'so easy a therapist could do it'."

"Well, that commercial wouldn't make sense to me."

"Why? Because therapists are smart?"

Stony silence.

<div align=center><img src="http://www.angelfire.com/music3/rhiannon/Caveman-1.jpg"></div>

[michelle2677]

Honestly, I've never actually heard anyone say it. But I don't hang out with 16-year olds, so...:shrug: I was vaguely aware that it's a popular thing for kids to say, but yes, I think it's a slur.

if a gay person says it, is it o.k. then?

[markolas]

if a gay person says it, is it o.k. then?

Well, I probably wouldn't beat the hell out of them, or feel compelled to, but I would prefer it if they didn't. :)

[sara1998]

"Faggot" hurt me to the core when I was a teenager. My sexual orientation was something I struggled with to the point that I almost killed myself over it.
So, back then, the word hurt. A lot.

Now that I'm older, I know it's just a word and only has power if you let it.
But I remember how that 15 year old felt, and it really does pain me to think that there are other kids somewhere going through what I did. "That's so gay" has a negative connotation and I'm sure that's not lost on the kids going through the difficulties of growing up gay. Same with "that's so retarded."

I'd rather err on the side of caution, I guess.

And I absolutely want to apologize, Maria, if I made it sound like I thought you were being callous or that you must be a miserable person. I adore you. That certainly wasn't directed at you.


No apology needed, babe. I know exactly what you meant. :xoxo:

I agree that people should be sensitive to other peoples feelings, but those in question should not take someone (like myself) to heart.

[foxyluva]

My two cents:

I think it is not a big deal to say 'that is so gay' once in a while, but when it is said all the time, it can be extremely offensive. I had a go at my brother and his friends for this very thing not two weeks ago....

[amber]

Honestly, I've never actually heard anyone say it. But I don't hang out with 16-year olds, so...:shrug: I was vaguely aware that it's a popular thing for kids to say, but yes, I think it's a slur.

Kids?! I been saying that since 6th grade. Well, you're only 5'6", right? Don't exercise much? I'll take my chances. :D
I don't like being told what not to say when I'm not prejudiced. You do know that gay meant "happy", and still does, before it was co-opted? And come to think of it, how is it a slur if it means happy and carefree? It's not like...uh...WOP or SPIC or CHINK, none of which mean good things.

[estranged4life]

Hell, I've been called a 'half-breed' in this hellhole town by some Indians who are full-blooded because I am a Cherokee/Irish mix - and you know what my response to that is? "Whoopdie-effing-doo" (Make a circular motion in the air).

Yeah, I use the word "'tarded" (ie-F**ktard, Relig-a-tard, polit-a-tard), big deal - I do have enough common sense & respect/pride to NEVER use that word towards a person who has a mental disability.

"Words don't cause harm - it is the intent behind the words"-George Carlin

[michelle2677]

I feel like the rosie thread just got revived.

[jannieC]

Having just spent 5 months in a Diversity class for graduate school, I know that those phrases should not be used. I'm having to learn NOT to say them because I am totally guilty. Especially, "that's so retarded". But in defense of the "that's so gay" thing. When *I* say it, I am truly not referring to a homosexual. I'm saying "gay" like "silly". Obviously as a therapist, I need to remove those phrases from my vocabulary. (But can I never EVER tell my husband he's a retard?)

I did also recently learn that calling someone a faggot is the new adolescent put down lately. Even if the kid isn't gay. That's really sad. Since I'm not gay (or retarded), it's probably not up to me to dictate whether or not the phrases should hurt someone else's feelings. That being said, I know how hard it is to be accused of being racist, homophobic, and so on, when you're not. :shrug:

[estranged4life]

(But can I never EVER tell my husband he's a retard?)

the following words as a substitute for 'retard' :

assface
numbnuts
goober
assclown
durn-fool-idgit
neanderthal
pussywhipped (Of course one has to get the pussy before they can be whipped by it, otherwise theyre referred to as a 'wuss')
asshat
and of course the ever popular asshole

My wife uses them all to describe me, of course she stole all those words from me...so....

[Johnny Stew]

I think it is not a big deal to say 'that is so gay' once in a while, but when it is said all the time, it can be extremely offensive. I had a go at my brother and his friends for this very thing not two weeks ago....My brother will sometimes jokingly call me "Pillow Biter," which I think is hysterical. But then I know my brother and I know that it's not being said with malice.
If someone else called me that, I'd rip them a new asshole. Depending on the context, of course.

Hell, I laid into the new employee we had last year at the library, when she went to hand a patron the People magazine with Lance Bass on the cover and loudly scoffed that homosexuality is "all in their heads"

[WildHeart69]

Those same people would be appalled, hopefully at least, to hear things like ... "That's so Jewish"

sad thing is, I have heard that one used before...

[Nixxxed]

I love how they can type out words and phrases that are downgrading to homosexuals, but when it comes to the word "nigger", they put "n-word". :rolleyes:
Thank you! That exact situation even happened to me on this board.

[foxyluva]

My brother will sometimes jokingly call me "Pillow Biter," which I think is hysterical. But then I know my brother and I know that it's not being said with malice.
If someone else called me that, I'd rip them a new asshole. Depending on the context, of course.

Definately. I can take a joke - but often my brother's conversations with his friends revolve around everything gay. Its extremely annoying, and one of them is shocking at doing it - but I have a sneaking suspision that he is a fag himself, which would explain alot...

[amber]

Good thing we can't see yer jizz stache while you're typing, Suzanne.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Okay, now that I get to read this thread, it is pretty awesome. OMG, Jizzstache. That is my favorite new word.
Sorry, Strand, Sanchezstache is a little to gross for me. To talk about. In public.

Jizzzzzzstaaaaaaaachee. It has pinache, it really does. What about "Jizzhands!" a la Fossey? Nice. "Aaaaand, Jizzhands! FosseyFosseyFossey!" :laugh:

BTW, Sparkles, I enjoyed your post on the subject. You stradled that fence skillfully and logically. It also brought the thought that girls should have a free pass to say "that's gay!", but in the hands of pre or adolescent or teenage boys, that phrase is a dangerous and meaningful bomb. And that isn't cool. I feel like we are fast approaching the day when it won't matter much if someone calls someone gay, judging from what I've seen of the new generation. I will never think the word "f*****" is okay for me to say, though, unless I'm specifically trading convo with some gay guy who is using it. Even then, I don't think I could say it. Like N-word. I'm not sure I could ever say that.
However, retarded and gay are on the approved list, for a girl like me. :laugh:
Unless I'm speaking within earshot of a very sensitive gay retail worker from Rasputin on Telegraph.

[amber]

It really is a grey area. And to be honest, I don't think there is a way to decide how to draw the line until it gets to the point of hate crime.

As bad as a slur is, it's like.. if someone has that in their soul anyway, does it matter to them if someone tells them they're bad? I'm having a hard time putting my thoughts into words on this. Freedom of speech is a double edged sword, for sure. It's a shame that people say some of the things they do, but it's even more of a shame that everyone feels the need to care about what everyone else thinks of them.

On a lighter note, I'm going to start saying "that's so hetero" for stuff that's stupid and see if it catches on. I bet it will, because a lot of my friends tend to pick up on phrases that I use (not because I'm sooooo cool.. just because i say a lot of whack ****).
What?!?!?! I'm totally offended! :mad: I'm sick of the "gay club" around here, just because I like to sleep with men, doesn't mean I'm a bad person, or lame. I have feelings and valid opinions just like everyone else. :mad:











:lol: :lol:
But seriously, that other stuff you said is good, too, I tend to agree.

Also, I like to make up other insults. or non insults. That don't have any inherent meaning. Like "That's so mank!" or "Stuff that!" or "that's very effluvius". Okay, that last one already means something, but still. I also find terms like "squirrel head" and "monkey head" can go either way. They are affectionate, yet slightly insulting. I call most kids "squirrel heads" because they are spazzes. But it sounds cute, see how that works? Or what about "That's so bazang".
But for reals, I've curbed myself of saying "that's so gay" easily, by saying "that's so lame", or "that is hella, hella, hella lame".

[amber]

Well we can keep doing nothing, which in turn solves nothing, or parents can start teaching their children how to act. Then again, we don't like to tell parents how to raise their kids. Maybe we should? :shrug: We can't beat the kids, because they'll keep doing the same to their kids. We can't just remind them not to do something, because children these days have attention spans of a goldfish because of the "learning disabilities" they are told they have. And we certainly can't discuss homosexuality and diversity in health class, because the parents will **** bricks. So therefore, I guess we just need to place computer chips in children's brains. :laugh:

Whoa, I've never seen you say anything this serious. You're hella right, though.
I have no real insightful thing to say about this, children and parents piss me off. No, I'm not talking about anyone here. Just in general. :laugh:

I have found from observation of a couple of my awesome friends, that the thing that changes people's minds the most about something is when someone approaches them in a very kind and loving and non judgmental way about it. I have a couple friends who can change people's minds and outlooks just by talking to them. Unfortunately, not everyone has this gift. I mean, people already like these friends because of their kind and loving and accepting and nonjudgmental manners, so that when they speak, the other person already puts faith and value in their opinion. But these friends of mine are very nonconfrontational in their approach to everything. And very few people are like that when they disagree about something.
I guess put in simpler terms, it's changing people's minds by example. Like, this person is very cool and I like her/him, so I am taking what he/she says into serious consideration, because if they think that, and I like them, then their opinion is more valid.

*As a weird note, none of these things ever came up in my school while I was growing up. We just learned all the PC, or "right" things to think about other races at least. But that is because it was basically all white upper middle class people, so we never had any actual confrontations, or differences of culture. There was a sprinkle of PWT, and a sprinkle of olive skin (me, and a couple other girls, and this one guy), but....
also, I never heard about gay people at all. Either positively or negatively. Even in highschool, among the choir/drama boys, it never really came up. I guess there was this one drama guy who was really, really gay, but no one ever said that, and I never saw anyone judging him about it. He was a little lame, so sometimes people said that, but that's all. And hella people were lame, so it wasn't unusual. And of course I guess some of the choir boys turned out to be gay, and I guess we spotted it, but no one said anything or treated them differently. No one talked about them and said they were gay. Also, most of those guys I can think of were really nice, all the girls loved them.

I guess it could have been more brutal in jockworld, but I didn't live there, I just played and was good at sports. And there was lots of crossover, like me. Jocks who were in choir or drama, etc. We just called the ones who were only jocks and hella dumb "lamos".

My point is that I think I have kind of a utopian ideal view of how things should be, or how they are, or what is really right and true. It all seems so obvious to me, I guess because I hadn't seen any conflict around these things growing up, and of course my parents and the school taught me the proper liberal view. I'm sure there would have been conflict, given that a large pop of my schools were mormon, and christian...but it never came up, so we all just learned (in school) the "right" things. And of course, no one is more polite than mormon and christian white kids, so even if they were taught differently at home, we never saw it in school.
Weird.

[sparky]

I feel like we are fast approaching the day when it won't matter much if someone calls someone gay, judging from what I've seen of the new generation.


Maybe. But we live in big urban areas where people have a more sophisticated and ironic reference point. Again, I am not sure about this whole idea. I suppose it is all in the delivery. I'm not too sensitive about it but I am thinking more about kids, and even on that count I don't have a great experience level or maybe even a valid POV anymore. When I hear about young homos getting beaten up and harrassed in schools, that's what makes me wonder. It isn't just normal kids making fun of each other when you are afraid that if you get caught in the hall at the wrong moment your head is getting slammed into a locker or the pavement. I wish the whole country was beyond that crap but outside of big cities it certainly isn't.

I have certainly used that phrase, but when I say it, I really mean something is totally gay. For instance, a dude with highlights and too much cologne and really OTT designer sunglasses. Or brunch. Or techno music and a disco ball in clothing store. :lol:

Or, ya know, a jizzstache.

[amber]

Maybe. But we live in big urban areas where people have a more sophisticated and ironic reference point. Again, I am not sure about this whole idea. I suppose it is all in the delivery. I'm not too sensitive about it but I am thinking more about kids, and even on that count I don't have a great experience level or maybe even a valid POV anymore. When I hear about young homos getting beaten up and harrassed in schools, that's what makes me wonder. It isn't just normal kids making fun of each other when you are afraid that if you get caught in the hall at the wrong moment your head is getting slammed into a locker or the pavement. I wish the whole country was beyond that crap but outside of big cities it certainly isn't.

I have certainly used that phrase, but when I say it, I really mean something is totally gay. For instance, a dude with highlights and too much cologne and really OTT designer sunglasses. Or brunch. Or techno music and a disco ball in clothing store. :lol:

Or, ya know, a jizzstache.

:lol:

Okay, on to a serious moment...
You're right about different areas being different, obviously. I think the fact that we live in these cities might give us (me) a false sense of the pulse of the country. I think it will spread to the middle, though, soon. I mean, because, there are gay people everywhere. Also b/c more famous people are coming out.
But as far as how it is now, you're right. "gay sensitivity" is much more important in some parts of the country than it is here. We (I) probably shouldn't forget that. Shouldn't forget that most of the entire country is behind California, and some other places, in this regard. Shouldn't forget that more "gay sensitivity" is much more needed than in my world.

Also, I always hear gay people calling other gay things "so gay". :lol: Mainly things such as you described, with variation. :p Sometimes I don't get it, though, okay, usually. I swear you gay guys are meaner to each other than I could ever be...:wavey: Which is fine. I mean, I don't get all the subtext, and why should I? I'm not gay. :laugh: It's still a bit disconcerting, though. Kind of like learning a new language...a language I would have categorized as too girly and catty if my girlfriends had ever said the same type of thing...:D

[ragandbone]

In grade school (the 70's) I would have described Disneyland dancers as being "so gay", as in exhibiting extreme gaiety to the point of ridiculous. I read a lot, and had parents who used archaic terms; I didn't associate it with sexual preference, was ignorant of variety in sexual preference, and would have probably still been unaware of the fear and hatred behind the sneering use of the word—the odd horror at cleancut enthusiasm, and iconic Americanism gone "wrong". After Tab Hunter, how could any strapping, beautiful all-american man be trusted?

Of course, I use that example because I later met a Disneyland dancer who let me know that he, and many of his fellow dancers were gay gay gay. He had leapt, pirouetted, and pranced about me at the clothing store we worked at, and he still had to tell me he was gay.

Why was I so dumb, er, I mean, imperceptive? My mother, when she heard me use the word, spent a lot of time telling me not to assume someone was gay (as if it should have been my business, anyway) if they had effeminate affectations. I believe it was she who told me it was an awful word to throw around, because it could hurt, it was a "bad" thing to call someone. Implicit in this, her attempt to enlighten me, was the idea that it was bad refer to someone's behavior as "gay" because it was bad to be gay.

And that's why I went on to work in a gay bar. Thanks mom!:wavey:
I miss it still.
After I moved to SF, I decided to assume everyone is gay, until they tell me otherwise.

This is my long-winded anecdote-laden way of saying that the term was already loaded in the 70's, and I had reason to know better, and kids now can't feign ignorance when told their use of the term term is offensive

But, I don't think it should be a legal matter, unless a student is inciting others to hatred, or if it is an issue of slander.

[skcin]

But in defense of the "that's so gay" thing. When *I* say it, I am truly not referring to a homosexual. I'm saying "gay" like "silly".


I know what you mean. The problem with that is that a gay person may think "oh, so you think that I'm silly or can't be taken seriously because I'm gay."

I have certainly used that phrase, but when I say it, I really mean something is totally gay. For instance, a dude with highlights and too much cologne and really OTT designer sunglasses. Or brunch. Or techno music and a disco ball in clothing store. :lol:

Or, ya know, a jizzstache.

I was at an outdoor festival with Ryan once, and as we passed this kid he said "Good Lord, that boy is queer as a three dollar bill!" I almost peed my pants from laughing. Just like I did when we all realized we were eating dinner in Gayville, U.S.A. & you said "you can't swing dead cat without hitting a queer in here." Now, coming from you, it was hilarious. Coming from someone I don't know, or who I knew wasn't gay, could be very offensive & even scary.

And OMG, brunch is gay? :shocked: I had no idea.

[sparky]

Just like I did when we all realized we were eating dinner in Gayville, U.S.A. & you said "you can't swing a bat without hitting a queer in here."

Not to be snippy, but the phrase is "swing a dead cat." And I do remember you laughing your ass off. I was stunned by all those guys. When oh when do we get to hang again? So damned fun.

And OMG, brunch is gay? :shocked: I had no idea.

You've got to be kidding. Really? Is the anything on earth quite as gay as Mimosas or bottomless glasses of champagne on a Sunday at noon? Especially with tons of handsome middle aged men taking their elderly mothers out to eat? :lol:

[skcin]

Not to be snippy, but the phrase is "swing a dead cat." And I do remember you laughing your ass off. I was stunned by all those guys. When oh when do we get to hang again? So damned fun.



You've got to be kidding. Really? Is the anything on earth quite as gay as Mimosas or bottomless glasses of champagne on a Sunday at noon? Especially with tons of handsome middle aged men taking their elderly mothers out to eat? :lol:

Duly noted & edited quickly. Dead cat is hilarious, bat is frightening. :sorry:

And I guess I never thought about brunch being gay. But it obviously is, now that you explain it. :D

[Sarah]

What?!?!?! I'm totally offended! :mad: I'm sick of the "gay club" around here, just because I like to sleep with men, doesn't mean I'm a bad person, or lame. I have feelings and valid opinions just like everyone else. :mad:

There are straight Fleetwood Mac fans? WTF? Surely you jest.

I guess that means I should pack my bags and head over to the Culture Club forums. THAT'S SO GAY!


:]

[cliffdweller]

Ah, go to hell. You're just as guilty, as witnessed here.

As witnessed where? By calling you out as mean-spirited? How is that the same thing as saying it's okay to call people hateful names? :confused:

Also, sparing people's feelings has nothing to do with being holier-than-thou, it has everything to do with being humane. But yeah, I know, having a conscience is hard; it's hard work to keep up with, so just keep being lazy, you know, whatever.

[Sarah]

As witnessed where? By calling you out as mean-spirited? How is that the same thing as saying it's okay to call people hateful names? :confused:

Also, sparing people's feelings has nothing to do with being holier-than-thou, it has everything to do with being humane. But yeah, I know, having a conscience is hard; it's hard work to keep up with, so just keep being lazy, you know, whatever.

I was talking about provoking. Which you did. What's the difference? You read a little bit of my text and decided that I needed to be called out as mean spirited? That isn't passing Holier than Thou judgement?

It'd be one thing if you added .02 about the topic at hand, but you came after me instead. For that, I said go to hell and I meant it. And it's sad really, I was kind of thinking that maybe I was a bit harsh, but now I see that I wasn't. Why don't you just head back over to your cliff and dwell right off it? Get off my back. Teach by example if you want to teach, not by being a smart-ass douchebag.

[skcin]

^ Let's settle down girls, no need to make this personal. And if you take a gander at my location, I'm already on the cliff dwelling, and I don't think there's room for both of us. :D

[Sarah]

Okay, fine, but just because you say so, and I have some respect for you.

(As a side note, my next move was gonna be to call him/her/whatever gay. ;) muahahahaha.)

[skcin]

Okay, fine, but just because you say so, and I have some respect for you.

(As a side note, my next move was gonna be to call him/her/whatever gay. ;) muahahahaha.)

Hee. After I posted I was worried everyone would say "oh, yeah, well who the f*ck do you think you are, a moderator? Butt out, bitch." :lol: Just tryin to keep the peace, man.

[michelle2677]

^^Just threaten to close the thread :laugh:





I'm kiiiiiidding.....

[Sarah]

Hee. After I posted I was worried everyone would say "oh, yeah, well who the f*ck do you think you are, a moderator? Butt out, bitch." :lol: Just tryin to keep the peace, man.

Well, I was going to, but.. :lol:

i keed, i keed.

[carrie721]

Hee. After I posted I was worried everyone would say "oh, yeah, well who the f*ck do you think you are, a moderator? Butt out, bitch." :lol: Just tryin to keep the peace, man.

that was my line, but i was at work. goddammit. :mad: