Meeting Rice denies DID take place

[irishgrl]

State Dept. confirms Rice-Tenet meeting

By ANNE GEARAN, Associated Press Writer 2 minutes ago

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice did receive a CIA briefing about terror threats just about two months before the Sept. 11 attacks, but the information was not new, her chief spokesman said.

In doing so, Sean McCormack confirmed a meeting — on July 10, 2001 — that his boss had said repeatedly she could not specifically recall. She had said earlier that there were virtually daily meetings at the time.

A new book by reporter Bob Woodward of Watergate fame describes the White House meeting as an emergency wakeup call that Rice had brushed off. Rice was President Bush's national security adviser at the time and was promoted to the top diplomatic job last year.

Although spokesmen for the State Department and the National Security Council indicated Sunday that such a meeting had taken place, Rice was still saying Monday that she was not sure about it. She said she would have remembered the sort of forceful warning the book claims was conveyed there. (apparently not)

"We can confirm that a meeting took place on or around July 10, 2001," McCormack said late Monday.

"The information presented in this meeting was not new, rather it was a good summary from the threat reporting from the previous several weeks," he added.

Woodward's book "State of Denial" recounts the meeting among then-CIA Director George Tenet, Rice and the CIA's top counterterror officer. The book said the session stood out in the minds of the CIA officials as the "starkest warning they had given the White House" on al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden and his network.

McCormack said that after the meting, Rice had asked that the same material be given to Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld and then-Attorney General John Ashcroft.

Materials from this meeting were made available to the independent Sept. 11 Commission, and Tenet was asked about the session when interviewed by the commission, McCormack said.

The meeting is not part of the commission report. WHY NOT???

Meanwhile, Ashcroft said Monday that he should have been notified of any such report dealing with a pending attack on the United States. "It just occurred to me how disappointing it was that they didn't come to me with this type of information," he said in an interview with The Associated Press.

"The FBI is responsible for domestic terrorism," Ashcroft said. He said both Tenet and Black should have been aware that he had pressed for a more aggressive policy in going after bin Laden and his followers in the United States and should have briefed him as well. Rice knew of this advocacy, he suggested.

According to the Sept. 11 Commission, Ashcroft was briefed on July 5, 2001, "warning that a significant terrorist attack was imminent." The report noted that the briefing addressed only threats outside the United States.

Woodward wrote that the meeting among Tenet, Rice and Black stood out in the minds of Tenet and Black as the "starkest warning they had given the White House" on al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden and his network.

Tenet asked for the meeting after receiving a disturbing briefing from Black, according to the book.

A former intelligence official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said the Sept. 11 Commission and an earlier joint congressional inquiry into the 9/11 attacks were both informed of Tenet's and Black's meeting with Rice, when Tenet warned Rice that a significant attack was coming.

In a closed, classified session at CIA headquarters, Tenet told Sept. 11 Commissioner Richard Ben-Veniste, the commission's executive director Phil Zelikow and other commission staff about Rice's meeting with Tenet and Black, the official said.

The former intelligence official said the commission kept a transcript of that Jan. 28, 2004, session. A second official familiar with the document, who also spoke on condition of anonymity, confirmed its existence.

[SuzeQuze]

Another interesting article on this.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,11069-2387256,00.html

Memo contradicts Rice on 9/11 claim from Woodward
From Tom Baldwin in Washington

Condoleezza Rice was today at the heart of the US Administration’s escalating battle with a former CIA head and Washington’s most revered journalist over who should shoulder the blame for failing to anticipate the 9/11 attacks.

The State Department has admitted that a review of records has shown that George Tenet, the then CIA director, did brief Dr Rice and other top officials on July 10, 2001, about the looming threat from al-Qaeda.

This appears to undermine comments made by Dr Rice to reporters this week when she claimed not to remember any such meeting. She added that it was “incomprehensible” that she ignored terrorist threats two months before the September 11 attacks.

Dr Rice’s aides have fought back, saying that records show she told Mr Tenet to take his concerns to, among others, John Ashcroft, the then Attorney-General.

Mr Ashcroft said: “Frankly, I’m disappointed that I didn’t get that kind of briefing. I’m surprised he didn’t think it was important enough to come by and tell me.”

The meeting was first disclosed by Bob Woodward in his book, State of Denial, who said Dr Rice - who was then President Bush’s national security adviser - had given Mr Tenet the “brush off”.

Woodward’s account appears to have forced the Administration on to the back foot over the issue of national security which Mr Bush had previously hoped would be the Republicans’ trump card in November’s Congressional mid-term elections.

But Woodward, the investigative journalist who helped break the Watergate scandal, has had to defend himself against concerted White House criticism of his reporting methods.

Dan Bartlett, the president’s adviser, has implied that the journalist had an agenda, saying it was clear he “approached this book different” than he had with two earlier volumes which were attacked by liberals for being too supportive of the Administration.

For instance, in his book, Bush at War, Woodward describes Donald Rumsfeld, the US Defence Secretary, as “handsome, intense, well-educated with an intellectual bent”. In State of Denial, Mr Rumsfeld is described as an “arrogant control freak whose micromanaging is almost comic”.

Woodward told CNN’s Larry King programme that both views were accurate at different times.

He compared writing the three books to reporting three baseball games involving the same team but which each had a different result. “This is a book about the people who made the decisions. These people aren’t Democrats - these are insiders,” he said.

State of Denial suggests Mr Tenet developed a particular dislike for Ms Rice over time, and that the former CIA director was furious when she publicly blamed the agency for allowing President Bush to make false claims about Iraq’s WMD.

He resigned from the CIA in 2004 and was honoured with a Presidential Medal of Freedom during a White House ceremony, even though he has since been heavily criticised for providing faulty intelligence on Iraq’s WMD.

He is now completing work on his memoirs in which he is expected to claim the CIA has been made the scapegoat for the war. In his book The One Percent Doctrine, Ron Suskind claims Mr Tenet saying he wished he “could give that damn medal back”.

Indeed, Woodward’s book is only the latest in a string of new literature documenting the Bush Administration’s alleged use of bad intelligence and flawed planning, as well as an apparent disregard for dissenting opinions.

Others include:
Soldier: The Life of Colin Powell by Karen DeYoung, which details the former Secretary of State’s doubts about the 2003 Iraq invasion, and describes the infighting between himself, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld in developing a strategy for the war on terror.

The One Percent Doctrine: Deep Inside America’s Pursuit of its Enemies Since 9/11 by Ron Suskind which claims that in August 2001, Mr Bush ignored CIA warnings of an impending al-Qaeda attack, telling an intelligence analyst: “All right, you’ve covered your ass now.”

Imperial Life in the Emerald City, by Rajiv Chandrasekaran, a first-hand account on Americans in Iraq which shows how inept bureaucrats, appointed for their Republican loyalty rather than administrative ability, grotesquely mismanaged post-invasion rebuilding.

Blind Into Baghdad: America’s War in Iraq by James Fallows, a collection of prescient essays which unpick many of the arguments for war, the faulty intelligence used to justify the invasion and the Administration’s failure to anticipate the difficulties of occupation.

Fiasco: The American Military Adventure in Iraq by Thomas E Ricks, which castigates Mr Rumsfeld for ignoring expert advice by invading Iraq with a “lean” force or coherent plan for rebuilding the country afterwards, arguing that dissolving the Iraqi army, as well as overly-aggressive tactics by the US military, enflamed the insurgency.

Hubris, The Inside Story of Spin, Scandal, and the Selling of the Iraq War by Michael Isikoff and David Corn, which quotes David Kay, chief weapons inspector, describing Mr Bush on being told that no WMDs had been found in Iraq: “I’m not sure I’ve spoken to anyone at that level who seemed less inquisitive.”


Tenet, the head of the CIA at that time, is just about finished with his memoirs. Could be very interesting. :nod:

[BlackWidow]

I hate Condi Rice!
she is a global disgrace and an Uncle Tom puppet!

[irishgrl]

I hate Condi Rice!
she is a global disgrace and an Uncle Tom puppet!
yes :nod: how she can live with herself is beyond me....:shrug:

[BlackWidow]

yes :nod: how she can live with herself is beyond me....:shrug:

I know! It is SHOCKING!!!:distress:

[strandinthewind]

I hate Condi Rice!
she is a global disgrace and an Uncle Tom puppet!

I think the use of Uncle Tom is inappropriate. There is no evidence the Bush Administration, though loathesome, is in any way a horribly or comparatively racist regime :shrug: I mean I hate their policies, think they are inept, etc. - but that hardly means Sec. Rice is working with people who openly or in effect hate black people :shrug:

Perhaps you are using Uncle Tom because you think any black person who is not a D is a de facto Uncle Tom. I just do not see it that way.

[BlackWidow]

I think the use of Uncle Tom is inappropriate. There is no evidence the Bush Administration, though loathesome, is in any way a horribly or comparatively racist regime :shrug: I mean I hate their policies, think they are inept, etc. - but that hardly means Sec. Rice is working with people who openly or in effect hate black people :shrug:

Perhaps you are using Uncle Tom because you think any black person who is not a D is a de facto Uncle Tom. I just do not see it that way.

She is incapable of speaking for herself or doing the right thing or taking responsibility for her own actions!

[irishgrl]

I think the use of Uncle Tom is inappropriate. There is no evidence the Bush Administration, though loathesome, is in any way a horribly or comparatively racist regime :shrug: I mean I hate their policies, think they are inept, etc. - but that hardly means Sec. Rice is working with people who openly or in effect hate black people :shrug:

Perhaps you are using Uncle Tom because you think any black person who is not a D is a de facto Uncle Tom. I just do not see it that way.

Maybe you can think of a better term to describe someone who is not only working against the best interests of this country but has apparently forgotten her own roots and seems to be doing her best to blend into the Good Old Boys enclave :shrug:

[BlackWidow]

Maybe you can think of a better term to describe someone who is not only working against the best interests of this country but has apparently forgotten her own roots and seems to be doing her best to blend into the Good Old Boys enclave :shrug:

^5..THANK YOU!

[strandinthewind]

Maybe you can think of a better term to describe someone who is not only working against the best interests of this country but has apparently forgotten her own roots and seems to be doing her best to blend into the Good Old Boys enclave :shrug:

Merriam Webster defines "Uncle Tom" as --

Main Entry: 1Uncle Tom
Pronunciation: -'täm
Function: noun

Etymology: Uncle Tom, pious and faithful black slave in Uncle Tom's Cabin (1851-52) by Harriet Beecher Stowe

1 : a black who is overeager to win the approval of whites (as by obsequious behavior or uncritical acceptance of white values and goals)

2 : a member of a low-status group who is overly subservient to or cooperative with authority <the worst floor managers and supervisors by far are women...Some of them are regular Uncle Toms -- Jane Fonda>
_________________________________________________________

Sec. Rice fulfills none of those criteria. So, the use of that term, though visually interesting, is incorrect.

I suggest a more appropriate adjective would be a dangerously incorrect woman with a deliberately incorrect view of how to handle the global threat of terrorism.

[strandinthewind]

^5..THANK YOU!

You're welcome :wavey:

[BlackWidow]

Merriam Webster defines "Uncle Tom" as --

Main Entry: 1Uncle Tom
Pronunciation: -'täm
Function: noun

Etymology: Uncle Tom, pious and faithful black slave in Uncle Tom's Cabin (1851-52) by Harriet Beecher Stowe

1 : a black who is overeager to win the approval of whites (as by obsequious behavior or uncritical acceptance of white values and goals)

2 : a member of a low-status group who is overly subservient to or cooperative with authority <the worst floor managers and supervisors by far are women...Some of them are regular Uncle Toms -- Jane Fonda>
_________________________________________________________

Sec. Rice fulfills none of those criteria. So, the use of that term, though visually interesting, is incorrect.

I suggest a more appropriate adjective would be a dangerously incorrect woman with a deliberately incorrect view of how to handle the global threat of terrorism.
Strand...why do you feel compelled to stir this pot?

[strandinthewind]

Strand...why do you feel compelled to stir this pot?

Because it urks me when people use that term incorrectly. Sec. Rice is in no way seeking approval from white people. Rather, she is far more sinister and dangerous in that she does what she does because she truly believes she is doing the right thing :eek:

[irishgrl]

Merriam Webster defines "Uncle Tom" as --

Main Entry: 1Uncle Tom
Pronunciation: -'täm
Function: noun

Etymology: Uncle Tom, pious and faithful black slave in Uncle Tom's Cabin (1851-52) by Harriet Beecher Stowe

1 : a black who is overeager to win the approval of whites (as by obsequious behavior or uncritical acceptance of white values and goals)

2 : a member of a low-status group who is overly subservient to or cooperative with authority <the worst floor managers and supervisors by far are women...Some of them are regular Uncle Toms -- Jane Fonda>
_________________________________________________________

Sec. Rice fulfills none of those criteria. So, the use of that term, though visually interesting, is incorrect.

I suggest a more appropriate adjective would be a dangerously incorrect woman with a deliberately incorrect view of how to handle the global threat of terrorism.

I disagree, I think Rice is a "black" sock puppet for this Administration, and I think she has incontrovertably demonstrated her willingness to cooperate (overly subservient?? you BETCHA!!!) with this warmongering group to the degree that she will LIE to the media, to the American people without flinching. She is a sociopath. She has sold out her people (who I would bet money are disproportionately represented in the fighting forces) and sold out this country.

this: "uncritical acceptance of white values and goals" is the new definition of Condi Rice. as of now.

[BlackWidow]

Because it urks me when people use that term incorrectly. Sec. Rice is in no way seeking approval from white people. Rather, she is far more sinister and dangerous in that she does what she does because she truly believes she is doing the right thing :eek:

I hate everything she stands for..I dont care what color her skin is. It is not a race issue! I think she is a MORAL SELLOUT!:nod:

[strandinthewind]

I disagree, I think Rice is a "black" sock puppet for this Administration, and I think she has incontrovertably demonstrated her willingness to cooperate with this warmongering group to the degree that she will LIE to the media, to the American people without flinching. She is a sociopath. She has sold out her people (who I would bet money are disproportionately represented in the fighting forces) and sold out this country.


So, she is seeking approval of whitie? No facts suggest or indicate that. Also, who are her people she sold out? It urks me to no end when people think all black people must think the same, be the same, represent each other, etc. Do you realize how racist that is? Finally, I get that you hate W, the war, etc. - but how is that being overeager to please whitie?

[BlackWidow]

I disagree, I think Rice is a "black" sock puppet for this Administration, and I think she has incontrovertably demonstrated her willingness to cooperate with this warmongering group to the degree that she will LIE to the media, to the American people without flinching. She is a sociopath. She has sold out her people (who I would bet money are disproportionately represented in the fighting forces) and sold out this country.

My point EXACTLY!

[strandinthewind]

I hate everything she stands for..I dont care what color her skin is. It is not a race issue! I think she is a MORAL SELLOUT!:nod:

BINGO - but that is not the same as an Uncle Tom. Again, she is not overeager to please whitie. You just used the wrong word. No big deal.

[BlackWidow]

So, she is seeking approval of whitie? No facts suggest or indicate that. Also, who are her people she sold out? It urks me to no end when people think all black people must think the same, be the same, represent each other, etc. Do you realize how racist that is? Finally, I get that you hate W, the war, etc. - but how is that being overeager to please whitie?

The fact she is a LIAR and has no moral compass says it all.

[strandinthewind]

My point EXACTLY!

Again, who are her people. All black people? Maybe they all sit on the front porch and eat watermelon while the fat grandmother sings spirituals because they are all like that. I mean come on - she does not represent all black people -- no one can.

[strandinthewind]

The fact she is a LIAR and has no moral compass says it all.

While that may be true, how does the make her an Uncle Tom.

[BlackWidow]

BINGO - but that is not the same as an Uncle Tom. Again, she is not overeager to please whitie. You just used the wrong word. No big deal.

Correction: She is a liar, has no moral compass and is a moral sell out!

[irishgrl]

Because it urks me when people use that term incorrectly. Sec. Rice is in no way seeking approval from white people. Rather, she is far more sinister and dangerous in that she does what she does because she truly believes she is doing the right thing :eek:

Last time I checked, every freakin single high ranking war-mongering ASSWIPE in Monkey Boy's cabinet is W.H.I.T.E. and she is MOST CERTAINLY futhering the goals of those DAMN White Men!! She's smart, tho, I'll hand ya that....she's at least chosen to cast her lot with the most powerful white men in the country. I guess if yer gonna be a sell out, at least sell out to the top right?
:shrug:

[strandinthewind]

HOOOORAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel:

[BlackWidow]

While that may be true, how does the make her an Uncle Tom.

..whatever her ambitions are to please whitie do not concern me.

[strandinthewind]

..whatever her ambitions are to please whitie do not concern me.

exactly!!!!!!!!!!!

[BlackWidow]

Last time I checked, every freakin single high ranking war-mongering ASSWIPE in Monkey Boy's cabinet is W.H.I.T.E. and she is MOST CERTAINLY futhering the goals of those DAMN White Men!! She's smart, tho, I'll hand ya that....she's at least chosen to cast her lot with the most powerful white men in the country. I guess if yer gonna be a sell out, at least sell out to the top right?
:shrug:

You are now my new role model....:D

[BlackWidow]

exactly!!!!!!!!!!!

..your words..not mine.

[irishgrl]

Again, who are her people. All black people? Maybe they all sit on the front porch and eat watermelon while the fat grandmother sings spirituals because they are all like that. I mean come on - she does not represent all black people -- no one can.

I got news for you: Condi DOESNT speak for Black people because she sees herself as WHITE (I'd bet $$$$$$$$$$$ on it). And to answer your question, she sold out the blacks because the blacks are disproportionately represented in the fighting forces. Black boys are getting killed.

she reminds me of OJ Simpson who so turned his back on his roots that he married a white girl and lived in the ritzy white neighborhood and considered himself part of WHITE high society. He only remembered he was black when he needed a jury that would acquit him. What a jerk.

[strandinthewind]

Last time I checked, every freakin single high ranking war-mongering ASSWIPE in Monkey Boy's cabinet is W.H.I.T.E. and she is MOST CERTAINLY futhering the goals of those DAMN White Men!! She's smart, tho, I'll hand ya that....she's at least chosen to cast her lot with the most powerful white men in the country. I guess if yer gonna be a sell out, at least sell out to the top right?
:shrug:

Nice try - but Powell was and is black as are many of the top brass in the military. Also, I get that you rather detest white men as they have the power, but they do and in this instance it is more happenstance than her deliberate attempt to appease them merely because they are white, etc. If you have proof to the contrary, let's see it.

[strandinthewind]

I got news for you: Condi DOESNT speak for Black people because she sees herself as WHITE (I'd bet $$$$$$$$$$$ on it). And to answer your question, she sold out the blacks because the blacks are disproportionately represented in the fighting forces. Black boys are getting killed.

she reminds me of OJ Simpson who so turned his back on his roots that he married a white girl and lived in the ritzy white neighborhood and considered himself part of WHITE high society. He only remembered he was black when he needed a jury that would acquit him. What a jerk.

And you do? I mean who speaks for ALL black people? Name one person. So, to put that on her is disingenuous and incorrect. I mean she sold everyone out - not just black people and she did not do it in an attempt to appease whitie :shrug:

On edit - did you really just say that about OJ :eek: So, no black person should ever marry a white person and live in an upscale neighborhood. If they do, they are horrible people who are turning their back on their people - whomever they may be.

[irishgrl]

And you do? I mean who speaks for ALL black people? Name one person. So, to put that on her is disingenuous and incorrect. I mean she sold everyone out - not just black people and she did not do it in an attempt to appease whitie :shrug:

I didnt say I speak for black people....what makes you ask me that? I dont know of any one black person that speaks for all black people, thats silly. But once upon a time, I think Martin Luther came pretty darn close....

To answer your other question, Colin Powell got OUT as soon as he saw the sort of deception the administration expected him to exhibit. HE has a conscience. and HE DIDNT SELL OUT.

The fact that Condi can LIE to the media, to the American people EVERY DAY for the LAST 6 years and she so completely furthers this administrations talking points REGARDLESS of the falsity, EXACTLY demonstrates the willingness of THIS BLACK WOMAN to stick to these evil White men no matter what!

She will be the last rat to leave the sinking ship too I bet.

[irishgrl]

On edit - did you really just say that about OJ :eek: So, no black person should ever marry a white person and live in an upscale neighborhood. If they do, they are horrible people who are turning their back on their people - whomever they may be.

OJ was doing his level best to ease into white society. I firmly believe that. He wasnt hobnobbing with all his former black friends (except maybe Al) now was he? Nooooooo he was rubbing elbows in WHITE high society revelling in his new class status. It wasnt until he realized that his jury (which should have come from his OWN neighborhood--his "peers") would likely convict him, that he asked for and received a change of venue to a predominately black neighborhood thereby guaranteeing an acquittal. Oh YES I believe that with ALL MY HEART. And so do some very savvy court watchers whose names escape me.

[strandinthewind]

I didnt say I speak for black people....what makes you ask me that?

To answer your other question, Colin Powell got OUT as soon as he saw the sort of deception the administration expected him to exhibit. HE has a conscience. and HE DIDNT SELL OUT.

The fact that Condi can LIE to the media, to the American people EVERY DAY for the LAST 6 years and she so completely furthers this administrations talking points REGARDLESS of the falsity, EXACTLY demonstrates the willingness of THIS BLACK WOMAN to stick to these evil White men no matter what!

She will be the last rat to leave the sinking ship too I bet.

I think you better check your facts on Powell - start by looking at his speech to the UN and then his subsequent defense of the reasons for the War in Iraq.

Again, that Condi is black a d they are white is irrelevant. An Uncle Tom is some black person who is overeager to appease white people for social acceptance. Sec. Rice does not meet that criteria. Even BlackWidow recanted her use of the term.

As for speaking for black people, you sure are quick to say Sec. Rice turned her back on them, but you have yet to define them, which I submit you cannot as no one can because there are no issues exclusively black, save for socioeconomic ones, but there are many other races in that boat.

[irishgrl]

I think you better check your facts on Powell - start by looking at his speech to the UN and then his subsequent defense of the reasons for the War in Iraq.

Again, that Condi is black a d they are white is irrelevant. An Uncle Tom is some black person who is overeager to appease white people for social acceptance. Sec. Rice does not meet that criteria. Even BlackWidow recanted her use of the term.

As for speaking for black people, you sure are quick to say Sec. Rice turned her back on them, but you have yet to define them, which I submit you cannot as no one can because there are no issues exclusively black, save for socioeconomic ones, but there are many other races in that boat.

The overriding issue that Condi is promoting (in cooperation with the warmongering Vulcans), namely, the Iraq war, is most definitely having a profound effect on Black people in terms of the numbers of black soldiers as a proportion of the whole. By aligning herself with these WHITE eejits, she is in effect allowing untold numbers of BLACK soldiers to die, nay she is PROMOTING it. Of course there are other races dying, and yes she is an equal opportunity liar, she is lying to everyone. But the fact remains, by sticking to these deadly policies she is in effect dooming members of her own race. Thus her blind devotion to CERTAIN WHITE MEN has led to death and destruction and woe. for black white brown yellow and red. And I bet you'd be hard pressed to find a black person right about now who says they admire her :shrug:

[irishgrl]

I think you better check your facts on Powell - start by looking at his speech to the UN and then his subsequent defense of the reasons for the War in Iraq.

By the way, Chris posted an article that mentioned a book by/about Colin that deals with this very topic. I think Colin acted in good faith to start with and I dont fault him for an honest mistake. At least he got OUT when he began to realize the depth of the deception the Administration was willing to perpetrate on our country....I admire him all the more for keeping his credibility.

[irishgrl]

Uncle Tom's Cabinet (http://www.inthesetimes.com/issue/25/04/ransby2504.html)





It is a sad, ironic testimony to the current complexities of racial politics in America that African-Americans like Colin Powell and Condeleeza Rice can attain unprecedented career advances in tandem with the sweeping disenfranchisement of thousands of black voters.

The Bush victory enabled these two loyal Bush family (White) house servants to become some of the most powerful blacks in the nation at the expense of the rights of black voters and the ratification of the theft by the Supreme Court. Now it appears the constitutional mandate of equal protection requires that the rights of some voters (guess who?) be ignored in order to protect the rights of others.

The NAACP and other civil rights groups have conducted hearings in Florida that

JOE RAEDLE/NEWSMAKERS
document outrageous instances of voter disenfranchisement. Haitians were denied translators to help them decipher confusing ballots. Roadblocks turned prospective voters away from access roads to the polls. Black men were singled out for criminal background checks as they headed to polling stations. This is all in addition to the highly publicized chicanery and technological "glitches" that excluded some 185,000 Florida ballots, in an election in which record numbers of African-Americans voted (and many more tried).

However, some of the most deep-seated aspects of black disenfranchisement in the state are structural and predate the recent election debacle. Some 400,000 black men in Florida are permanently barred from voting because of a 19th century law disenfranchising those with a felony conviction. This 1868 law dates back to after passage of the 15th Amendment, which gave black men the franchise. A century later the targets are the same, and the law is working the way it was intended.

Given the flagrant racism that permeated the election and its aftermath, it was a strategic move when, just days after Gore's concession, a smiling Dubya proudly announced his diverse senior nominees, nudging first Rice (for national security adviser) and then Powell (for secretary of state) before the cameras to sing his praises. Even before the Supreme Court handed victory to Bush, he had indicated that these two would be some of his first appointments. This is no coincidence; it is another example of what the Republicans really mean by "colorblindness." Colorblindness means that we should all pretend that race played no role in selecting high-ranking black people to speak for a regime whose commitments to racial justice are seriously suspect at best.

Consistent with this strategy, on December 20 Bush met with a national group of religious leaders, a third of them African-American, to further deflect attention away from the persistent and persuasive allegations of racism. Eugene Rivers, a Boston-based minister who describes himself as an independent, emerged from that meeting to criticize Jesse Jackson for challenging the fairness of the election.

Although trying to authenticate more conservative blacks to speak for the race is old news, the choices of Powell and Rice do represent a shift in the way in which racism manifests itself. These nominations would have been inconceivable a generation ago. But the black community has changed, and the face of racism has too. There is a greater tolerance of phenotype diversity, as long as there is conformity in terms of ideology and loyalty. Indeed, such symbolic integration at the top can be valuable as long as the black symbols remain faithful promoters of the party line.

For example, while Powell differs with Bush on affirmative action, which the general benefited from, he is obviously still willing to be a team player to advance his own career interests. This is Bush's version of affirmative action--or "affirmative access," as he calls it--brown faces at the top as long as they go along with the silencing of black sentiments at the bottom.

The pioneer for this new style racism was Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas, one of the strongest supporters of the conservative opinion in the Florida decision. What all three of these black conservatives show us is the limits of representation at the top. Despite their backgrounds, they have conveniently forgotten the struggles from which they benefited. Thomas was the product of impoverished southern farmers. Powell came from a working-class immigrant family. And Rice, born the year of the Brown v. Board of Education decision, was a classmate of one of the children killed in the 16th Street Baptist Church bombing in Birmingham, Alabama by white vigilantes. Yet all three have twisted and reconfigured those experiences to justify current positions that would ignore the brutal forms of discrimination and oppression facing the masses of black folk without access to the privileges and power that they now enjoy.

In the end, neither Clarence Thomas, Colin Powell nor Condoleeza Rice can disguise the sentiments of the overwhelming majority of African-Americans. Ninety percent of the black electorate voted against George Bush in this election. They did so with good reason, given that his policy objectives portend even deeper retrenchment in the areas of civil rights enforcement, economic justice and other areas of concern to black communities all over the country. "If Bush intends to hold out a conciliatory hand to the black community," says Fran Beal, a civil rights activist and leader of the Black Radical Congress, "he needs to first condemn the blatant disenfranchisement of tens of thousands of black and Haitian people and rigorously move to enforce the Voting Rights Act of 1965."

The Republicans hoped to dampen the outrage of African-Americans with jobs for black elites and Booker T. Washington-type access to uncritical African-American leaders. But folk won't be fooled so easily.

Barbara Ransby is an assistant professor of African-American Studies and History at University of Illinois, Chicago. Cheryl I. Harris is a professor of law at the University of California, Los Angeles.

[irishgrl]

Yet ANOTHER condemnation of Rice by (of all things) BLACK people!
Rice is Anti-Black (http://www.news24.com/News24/Africa/Zimbabwe/0,,2-11-1662_1650872,00.html)
Condoleeza Rice is anti-black'
22/01/2005 12:12 - (SA)

Harare - Zimbabwe's state-run Herald newspaper on Saturday launched a vitriolic attack on US secretary of state nominee Condoleezza Rice, calling her anti-black and an apologist for "white sins".

A weekly column compared Rice to her predecessor, Colin Powell, whom it called an "Uncle Tom", a put-down of a black who is overeager to win the approval of whites.

"She is a black woman who will be manly and white in her relentless assault on blacks, their liberties and their remnant and dwindling sovereignities," said the column.

"She will be a black who washes away the sins of white power as it bludgeons non-white states."

The comments came after Rice on Tuesday branded Belarus, Cuba, Iran, Myanmar, North Korea and Zimbabwe as "outposts of tyranny".

The Herald said Rice was a "genuine door bell whose chime announces the arrival of the white Bush, the same way her 'outposts of tyranny' speech foreshadowed and set the tone for Bush's inauguration one."

"She is no denizen of the black square, a place she associates with failure, dishonour and shame," it said, adding that those who expected her to "proclaim the cause of the black man and woman, demanding atonement," would be bitterly disappointed.

The Herald predicted that Rice would be the "alto horn that leads and plays harbinger to Bush's bass as it thunders and rings across the globe with Iraq as its lighter prelude."

The Zimbabwean government on Friday dismissed Rice's comments, saying Harare was unruffled about what "fascists" thought of it.

"The western world is now composed and governed by fascists," Zimbabwe's Anti-Corruption Minister Didymus Mutasa said, when asked about Rice's comments.

"When you look at the way that Iraq is, and the way the Palestinians have been ignored, and the way that we and others who are socialists are being treated, you cannot doubt that these people are fascists," said Mutasa.

"The best we can do is to ignore them and just work for the good of our people."

[irishgrl]

Here's an article on the proportion of Black soldiers (and other minorities) as a percentage of the total fighting force

Military families and veterans have voiced criticism of the Bush administration and the ongoing war in Iraq, as the numbers of U.S. casualties have continued to increase despite President Bush's announcement of the end to major conflict last May. According to the Department of Defense, there have been more than 2,800 wounded U.S. soldiers and more than 500 fatalities.
Advertisement

The percentage of casualties among minorities, in particular, has steadily increased in recent wars. A study conducted by Scripps Howard News Service showed an increase in African-American deaths from 8 to 19 percent and a 2 to 14 percent increase in Latino deaths since the Korean War. African-American soldiers represent 20 percent of U.S. fatalities in Iraq, according to a study reported by Scripps Howard News Service.

"Nearly a fifth of the fatalities among U.S. troops in the current war in Iraq are black, which will be the highest cost African Americans have paid in any of America's wars if the trend continues," the report said. "African Americans represent 13 percent of the U.S. population and 20 percent of all military personnel."

The Scripps Howard study also said that deaths among Latino soldiers might be over-represented relative to the U.S. Latino population. The report lacked statistics on Latino deaths because it said military experts find it "a difficult statistic to prove unofficially since ethnicity is self-defined."

But as the hostilities continue, the U.S. government is recruiting more Latinos, including non-citizen immigrants, Andrew Gumbel reported in the London-based newspaper

The Independent. The military views Latinos "as by far the most promising ethnic group for recruitment, because their numbers are growing rapidly in the U.S. and they include a plentiful supply of low-income men of military age with few other job or educational prospects," Gumbel said.

While there has not been much discussion of Iraqi civilian deaths, an American and British research group has estimated them to be in the range of 8,000 to 10,000 and approximately 20,000 injured, according to www.iraqbodycount.net.

The rising death toll, along with the uncertainty of U.S. soldiers' return home, has caused considerable frustration among family members and the troops themselves.

A message posted on January 1 on www.bringthemhomenow.org reads, "Even with the capture of Saddam, many of them [U.S. soldiers] are still in a war that they don't agree with and don't want to be a part of." Bringthemhomenow.org is an Internet site for military families, veterans, active duty personnel, reservists and others opposed to the war in Iraq.

The Pentagon has authorized rotating troops as a means to deal with low morale among them. Approximately 125,000 troops currently serving in Iraq are due to be relieved by 110,000 new troops, mostly from National Guard and Reservists units. This has raised some concern about U.S. vulnerability to attacks from Iraqi insurgents during the exchange.

Some Americans doubt the ability of U.S. troops to be successful in Iraq under any circumstances. The current situation has been compared to the Vietnam War, where the U.S. suffered a military defeat.

The number of soldiers evacuated from Iraq for psychological or physical reasons is a "toll the country has not seen since Vietnam," said Aseneth Blackwell, former national president of Gold Star Wives of America, Inc., a support group for people who lose a spouse from war.


©Atlanta Daily World 2006

I want to post a correction: I was wrong to think there were more Blacks fighting in Iraq than any other race. I had heard that somewhere and believed it to be true. The truth is, about 3/4ths of the fighting force in Iraq is White. Having said that however, I find it interesting to note that this article states that the percentage of Blacks in the overall population is 13% while the percentage of Black soldiers is 20%. so in that sense, Blacks are more visible in the fighting force than they are in the civilian numbers. (according to this study).

Also: I can appreciate Condi Rice's vast intellect, and her accomplishments and admire her success. What I find deplorable is that a woman so obviously educated, informed and accomplished would cast her lot with such a scurrilous band of cutthroats. Not only that but LIE for them as well. Its just really really sickening. What a waste of God given talents.

[strandinthewind]

Blah Blah Blah - none of that shows that she is overeager to appease whitie to gain social acceptance. That she works with white people is the way of the world and if that were the standard applied to all, then all working black people are Uncle Tom's because all black people in one way or another work with white people :shrug:

Again - what exactly are exclusively black issues - you have yet to answer that one :wavey:

[strandinthewind]

. . . Also: I can appreciate Condi Rice's vast intellect, and her accomplishments and admire her success. What I find deplorable is that a woman so obviously educated, informed and accomplished would cast her lot with such a scurrilous band of cutthroats. Not only that but LIE for them as well. Its just really really sickening. What a waste of God given talents.[/B][/COLOR]

While I likely agree, that does not make her an Uncle Tom.

[irishgrl]

Blah Blah Blah - none of that shows that she is overeager to appease whitie to gain social acceptance. That she works with white people is the way of the world and if that were the standard applied to all, then all working black people are Uncle Tom's because all black people in one way or another work with white people :shrug:

Again - what exactly are exclusively black issues - you have yet to answer that one :wavey:

Im not sure why you are even asking me that question, my point was by her pushing this war, Black soldiers were impacted, in numbers disproportionate to the overall black population. And of COURSE she's not sucking up to every white person, just the powerful ones. She has consistently repeated the Administration's talking points for the last 6 years, regardless of the fact that the FACTS prove otherwise: WMD, the Iraq/Al-Quaeda connection, the numerous warnings that she and others disregarded.......the list goes on and on.

Condi has chosen her path, and that is to cast her lot with Bush and Co., no matter what.
I think she's about as close to a textbook example of someone forsaking her own roots to hobnob with the white powermongers as you can find.

[BlackWidow]

I think you better check your facts on Powell - start by looking at his speech to the UN and then his subsequent defense of the reasons for the War in Iraq.

Again, that Condi is black a d they are white is irrelevant. An Uncle Tom is some black person who is overeager to appease white people for social acceptance. Sec. Rice does not meet that criteria. Even BlackWidow recanted her use of the term.

As for speaking for black people, you sure are quick to say Sec. Rice turned her back on them, but you have yet to define them, which I submit you cannot as no one can because there are no issues exclusively black, save for socioeconomic ones, but there are many other races in that boat.

No honey..I did not recant anything!

[BlackWidow]

Yet ANOTHER condemnation of Rice by (of all things) BLACK people!
Rice is Anti-Black (http://www.news24.com/News24/Africa/Zimbabwe/0,,2-11-1662_1650872,00.html)

"Failure..dishonor & shame"

[BlackWidow]

Again, who are her people. All black people? Maybe they all sit on the front porch and eat watermelon while the fat grandmother sings spirituals because they are all like that. I mean come on - she does not represent all black people -- no one can.

again..your words..not mine.

[strandinthewind]

Correction: She is a liar, has no moral compass and is a moral sell out!

Which you said in response to my saying your use of "Uncle Tom" in this instance was incorrect. Sounds like you recanted to me, especially the public use of "correction" :wavey:

[strandinthewind]

again..your words..not mine.

You did not answer the question :shrug:

Who are her people?

More importantly and to a more general issue - what issues are exclusively black issues. I submit there are none. Then again, i do not buy into the whole black issues things at all. I think all issues effect all people - granted some (like HIV) more so to some groups than others.

In fact, I think to lump all black people into this mass of one person so to speak -- is mostly a racist political tool.

[irishgrl]

Who are her people?

More importantly and to a more general issue - what issues are exclusively black issues. I submit there are none. Then again, i do not buy into the whole black issues things at all. I think all issues effect all people - granted some (like HIV) more so to some groups than others.

In fact, I think to lump all black people into this mass of one person so to speak -- is mostly a racist political tool.

Who ARE her people..........good question. Does SHE know?

as for your topic "black issues" I cant recall anyone bringing it up except you.
I made a comment that Condi's war push hurt black soldiers, but I dont think anyone has really brought up "black issues" :shrug:

[strandinthewind]

Who ARE her people..........good question. Does SHE know?

as for your topic "black issues" I cant recall anyone bringing it up except you.
I made a comment that Condi's war push hurt black soldiers, but I dont think anyone has really brought up "black issues" :shrug:

Well, you did. You said she was an Uncle Tom, which begs the question. But, even if that is too much of a stretch, you suggested that she turned her back on her people. Well, who are her people? That statement implies if not states that all black people should be considered together, which I think is racist. How could it not be.

[strandinthewind]

I got news for you: Condi DOESNT speak for Black people because she sees herself as WHITE (I'd bet $$$$$$$$$$$ on it). And to answer your question, she sold out the blacks because the blacks are disproportionately represented in the fighting forces. Black boys are getting killed . . . .


Actually, you said at first that Sec. Rice did not speak for black people. Then, you went on to say that black people were mostly in the military, which you later recanted. So, you did say that Sec. Rice does not speak for black people - my question then is who does speak for "them" and how do you define "them?" I think those are valid questions in light of your statement and you have yet to answer.

[BlackWidow]

You did not answer the question :shrug:

Who are her people?

More importantly and to a more general issue - what issues are exclusively black issues. I submit there are none. Then again, i do not buy into the whole black issues things at all. I think all issues effect all people - granted some (like HIV) more so to some groups than others.

In fact, I think to lump all black people into this mass of one person so to speak -- is mostly a racist political tool.

We are speaking about Condi Rice..no one else.

[BlackWidow]

Who ARE her people..........good question. Does SHE know?

as for your topic "black issues" I cant recall anyone bringing it up except you.
I made a comment that Condi's war push hurt black soldiers, but I dont think anyone has really brought up "black issues" :shrug:

I agree..he is trying to make this a race thread.:shrug:

[BlackWidow]

Strand:
I love and respect your opinions..I do.
I think you are getting worked up about nothing.

[strandinthewind]

We are speaking about Condi Rice..no one else.

Ummm - no, you called her an Uncle Tom, which is a racist statment. I then questioned the validity of using that term in this instance. You then corrected yourself. So, you brought it up :shrug:

Then, Mary insisted and apparently still insists the term Uncle Tom is appropriate here because Sec. Rice works with white men, she considers herself white, and does not speak for black people. I am not asking Mary to explain those statements because I think her prior explanations do not make the use of the term Uncle Tom acceptable.

Also - Mary brought up OJ - and I was responding to that earlier.

[strandinthewind]

Strand:
I love and respect your opinions..I do.
I think you are getting worked up about nothing.

I am just asking Mary to explain what she said :shrug:

I mean she asserts Sec. Rice is overeager to appease white men for social acceptance and that Sec. Rice does not speak for black people. She has yet to support that statement with facts, which are all that interest me - well that and the conclusions drawn from them.

[irishgrl]

Ummm - no, you called her an Uncle Tom, which is a racist statment. I then questioned the validity of using that term in this instance. You then corrected yourself. So, you brought it up :shrug:

Then, Mary insisted and apparently still insists the term Uncle Tom is appropriate here because Sec. Rice works with white men, she considers herself white, and does not speak for black people. I am not asking Mary to explain those statements because I think her prior explanations do not make the use of the term Uncle Tom acceptable.

Also - Mary brought up OJ - and I was responding to that earlier.

I expressed an OPINION that it appears to ME that Condi has forgotten her roots and has so closely aligned herself with the interests of the White Power mongers in office right now that she has lost all touch with her roots. So, if an "Uncle Tom" is a black person who forsakes their culture/roots to cozy up to the White culture............I can totally see Condi Rice satisfying that definition :shrug: She appears to have gained social acceptance, but on what grounds I am not 100% sure. I know she is a very intelligent and driven woman, and has worked hard to achieve success, but as we all know in this country, the pinnacle of success is reserved for WHITE MEN. True POWER exists only if you are WHITE MALE.
She is surrounded by White men and dutifully parrots their talking points regardless of their truth. I cant imagine a more dedicated cheerleader for the Bush Administration than Condi Rice.

Maybe since I wasnt born in the South I dont have your grasp of the term?

[strandinthewind]

I expressed an OPINION that it appears to ME that Condi has forgotten her roots and has so closely aligned herself with the interests of the White Power mongers in office right now that she has lost all touch with her roots. So, if an "Uncle Tom" is a black person who forsakes their culture/roots to cozy up to the White culture............I can totally see Condi Rice satisfying that definition :shrug:

Yo're spinning darlin'

Actually, you tried to tie it to the soldiers being black thing, but could not.

But, more importantly, you said Sec. Rice did not speak for black people. I mean I assume you still say Sec. Rice does not speak for black people outside of the incorrect soldier argument :shrug: So, my question is who does speak for black people and what are black issues.

This issue is a pet peeve of mine because people have been bludgeoned into assuming such a thing exists and I say it does not outside of the abstract.

I mean womens' issues clearly exist and are clearly defined such as abortion, breast cancer, spousal abuse (the VAST majority is a woman's issue) - child support, etc.

Yet, when we look at black issues, no such exclusivity or quasi exclusivity exists.

[irishgrl]

Also - Mary brought up OJ - and I was responding to that earlier.

OJ is a PRIME example of a black man forsaking his culture to ascend into white society until it served his interests to remember he was really black (like when he needed a jury to acquit him) So sorry, but that is the truth.
He was all about the White high society, white neighborhood, white status symbols, pretty white wife..........until he knew all his white neighbors would convict him of murdering Nicole, then it was oops! we need a black jury....

[strandinthewind]

I expressed an OPINION that it appears to ME that Condi has forgotten her roots and has so closely aligned herself with the interests of the White Power mongers in office right now that she has lost all touch with her roots. So, if an "Uncle Tom" is a black person who forsakes their culture/roots to cozy up to the White culture............I can totally see Condi Rice satisfying that definition :shrug: She appears to have gained social acceptance, but on what grounds I am not 100% sure. I know she is a very intelligent and driven woman, and has worked hard to achieve success, but as we all know in this country, the pinnacle of success is reserved for WHITE MEN. True POWER exists only if you are WHITE MALE.
She is surrounded by White men and dutifully parrots their talking points regardless of their truth. I cant imagine a more dedicated cheerleader for the Bush Administration than Condi Rice.

Maybe since I wasnt born in the South I dont have your grasp of the term?


But, she is not parrotting it to be part of the white group. In other words, the fact that they are white is besides the point. Also, using your definition here, all bloack people who work with white people are Uncle Tom's because surely people in other jobs have to do crap all the time that they do not agree with, etc.

[strandinthewind]

OJ is a PRIME example of a black man forsaking his culture to ascend into white society until it served his interests to remember he was really black (like when he needed a jury to acquit him) So sorry, but that is the truth.
He was all about the White high society, white neighborhood, white status symbols, pretty white wife..........until he knew all his white neighbors would convict him of murdering Nicole, then it was oops! we need a black jury....

So, any black person who wants to live in a rich subdivision and marry a white woman is an Uncle Tom - that is ridiculous. Moreover, it defines only real black people as those who marry within the race and live in a poorer area. Do you not see the racism there?

Moreover, you personally knew all of OJ's friends to say they were all white?

[irishgrl]

Yo're spinning darlin'

Actually, you tried to tie it to the soldiers being black thing, but could not.

But, more importantly, you said Sec. Rice did not speak for black people. I mean I assume you still say Sec. Rice does not speak for black people outside of the incorrect soldier argument :shrug: So, my question is who does speak for black people and what are black issues.

This issue is a pet peeve of mine because people have been bludgeoned into assuming such a thing exists and I say it does not outside of the abstract.

I mean womens' issues clearly exist and are clearly defined such as abortion, breast cancer, spousal abuse (the VAST majority is a woman's issue) - child support, etc.

Yet, when we look at black issues, no such exclusivity or quasi exclusivity exists.

not spinning, same message: Condi Rice's mulish defense of this war has a direct impact on the blacks serving in Iraq. As I said, black soldiers are serving in higher concentrations percentage wise than they are represented in the population. (20% as opposed to 13%) why are you not getting that?

But as for specifically "black issues" no one brought that up but you.

also, no one person speaks for all the blacks as I already told you (however I think Martin Luther King came very very close once upon a time)
Has Condi Rice said anything that pertains to the Black population lately? I dont know, all I know is that when you see her in the news, she's busy promoting the agenda of the Vulcans. Well Well. Again, she's made a choice and it doesnt seem to be vital to the welfare of her own people :shrug:

[strandinthewind]

not spinning, same message: Condi Rice's mulish defense of this war has a direct impact on the blacks serving in Iraq. As I said, black soldiers are serving in higher concentrations percentage wise than they are represented in the population. (20% as opposed to 13%) why are you not getting that?

But as for specifically "black issues" no one brought that up but you.

also, no one person speaks for all the blacks as I already told you (however I think Martin Luther King came very very close once upon a time)
Has Condi Rice said anything that pertains to the Black population lately? I dont know, all I know is that when you see her in the news, she's busy promoting the agenda of the Vulcans. Well Well. Again, she's made a choice and it doesnt seem to be vital to the welfare of her own people :shrug:



Her actions have hurt all Americans, not just the black people. Moreover, her intention was not to be overeager to appease whitie while doing so. Thus, she is no Uncle Tom.


But as for specifically "black issues" no one brought that up but you.

You asserted she did not speak for black people. Well, what waas she going to speak about black people on as Sec. of Sate, etc.

I think you realize you put your foot in your mouth and now cannot get it out without admitting that there are no black issues, etc. and to say there are is making a racist statement. In other words, such a defense would have to presuppose all black people are raging criminals from poor backgrounds with little education. While that may be true in some areas, surely you as a raging liberal will never admit that :laugh:

[irishgrl]

So, any black person who wants to live in a rich subdivision and marry a white woman is an Uncle Tom - that is ridiculous. Moreover, it defines only real black people as those who marry within the race and live in a poorer area. Do you not see the racism there?

Moreover, you personally knew all of OJ's friends to say they were all white?


no that isnt what I am saying, Im saying OJ was status-seeking, class-hopping and marrying Nicole was the fastest way to do it. by the way, isnt it a fact that ghettos are mostly populated with minorities? And just what is the demographic of Beverly Hills by and large? I dont think it is racist to acknowledge the fact of demographics and poverty. There is a real correlation between incomes and ethnicity as Im sure you know. Dont try and make this into something it isnt either.

as for OJ's friends, no I didnt know all of them. I know he stayed friends with Al, who was black, and Im sure he had other black friends. but I maintain that OJ was making a definite choice to cross cultural lines in order to rise up the ladder of society.

[strandinthewind]

no that isnt what I am saying, Im saying OJ was status-seeking, class-hopping and marrying Nicole was the fastest way to do it. by the way, isnt it a fact that ghettos are mostly populated with minorities? And just what is the demographic of Beverly Hills by and large? I dont think it is racist to acknowledge the fact of demographics and poverty. There is a real correlation between incomes and ethnicity as Im sure you know. Dont try and make this into something it isnt either.

as for OJ's friends, no I didnt know all of them. I know he stayed friends with Al, who was black, and Im sure he had other black friends. but I maintain that OJ was making a definite choice to cross cultural lines in order to rise up the ladder of society.

Again, so any black person who wants to live in Brentwood is a sell out - I am rather taken aback because that implies or supposes that the desire to move to Brentwood is a horrible thing to do. Certainly other black people live there.

Also, I think he married her because she was a hot piece of a$$ - - I mean I have read nothing to suggest she was socially prominent before she married him.

[irishgrl]

Her actions have hurt all Americans, not just the black people. Moreover, her intention was not to be overeager to appease whitie while doing so. Thus, she is no Uncle Tom.




You asserted she did not speak for black people. Well, what waas she going to speak about black people on as Sec. of Sate, etc.

I think you realize you put your foot in your mouth and now cannot get it out without admitting that there are no black issues, etc. and to say there are is making a racist statement. In other words, such a defense would have to presuppose all black people are raging criminals from poor backgrounds with little education. While that may be true in some areas, surely you as a raging liberal will never admit that :laugh:


I have agreed that her actions have hurt all...in a way that is also proving my point that she isnt speaking for the Black people because she isnt singling them out, but giving ALL our young servicepeople the shaft...
and I have NEVER ONCE brought up the specter of "black issues" except to respond to your comments. Nowhere have I made any blanket statements about Blacks at all :shrug:

[irishgrl]

Again, so any black person who wants to live in Brentwood is a sell out - I am rather taken aback because that implies or supposes that the desire to move to Brentwood is a horrible thing to do. Certainly other black people live there.

Also, I think he married her because she was a hot piece of a$$ - - I mean I have read nothing to suggest she was socially prominent before she married him.

she was a successful model, and a jet setter.......and yes there are black people in Brentwood. but they are a fraction of the total population. contrast that with inner-city projects and tell me what the neighborhood looks like. Its undeniable.

[strandinthewind]

I have agreed that her actions have hurt all...in a way that is also proving my point that she isnt speaking for the Black people because she isnt singling them out, but giving ALL our young servicepeople the shaft...

You never mentioned all service men. You stated she was misrepresenting the black ones which you incorrectly thought were the majority. So, now that you do not have this point on which to hang your hat, you spin it.

and I have NEVER ONCE brought up the specter of "black issues" except to respond to your comments. Nowhere have I made any blanket statements about Blacks at all :shrug:

So, when you said that Sec. Rice did not speak for balck people, any clearly obvious inference drawn about what it means to speak for black people was incorrect - you implied no such thing. Come On :laugh:

[strandinthewind]

she was a successful model, and a jet setter.......and yes there are black people in Brentwood. but they are a fraction of the total population. contrast that with inner-city projects and tell me what the neighborhood looks like. Its undeniable.

Exactly - so all balck people should stay there and any black person who marries outside of the race and wants to live in a predominantly white neighborhood is an Uncle Tom. Do you hear what that sounds like?

[irishgrl]

You never mentioned all service men. You stated she was misrepresenting the black ones which you incorrectly thought were the majority. So, now that you do not have this point on which to hang your hat, you spin it.

So, when you said that Sec. Rice did not speak for balck people, any clearly obvious inference drawn about what it means to speak for black people was incorrect - you implied no such thing. Come On :laugh:
I mentioned all servicemen in relation to the proportions of different races. I later realized that the information I was relying on was incorrect and recanted. I did however point out that blacks in the service are disproportionately represented when compared to their proportions in society.

I think Ive repeated that now 5 or 6 times. Are you having a brain fart?

And as for the "clearly obvious inferences" you are drawing, I think its safe to say that you are NOT drawing the inference that I would have drawn...
by my comment (Rice doesnt speak for black people) I meant she was instead too busy promoting the agenda of the Vulcans. How many times do I have to say THAT??? She sure as hell isnt using her bully pulpit to point out that Blacks are needlessly dying is she? Is she decrying the wasted money/resources/lives? is she admitting that this whole venture is a horrible miscalculation? Is she sad for the families/friends of the dead (here or abroad?) not so's you'd notice.....

[strandinthewind]

Don't you have to go bash me on the Folely thread now :wavey:

As for you other comment - broken record.

[irishgrl]

Exactly - so all balck people should stay there and any black person who marries outside of the race and wants to live in a predominantly white neighborhood is an Uncle Tom. Do you hear what that sounds like?

did I say that? no. I wasnt talking about EVERY black person who marries a white girl, etc etc, I was talking about OJ. Stop putting words in my mouth!

[irishgrl]

Don't you have to go bash me on the Folely thread now :wavey:

As for you other comment - broken record.
guess the party has moved to the Foley thread so I'll be seeing ya there...:rolleyes:

[strandinthewind]

did I say that? no. I wasnt talking about EVERY black person who marries a white girl, etc etc, I was talking about OJ. Stop putting words in my mouth!

So, if any other black person moeves to Brentwood with a mildly socially prominent wife, you are cool with that :laugh:

Come on - you just HATE the fact that OJ sin't living in some ghetto with a sistah :laugh:

You also hate the fact that white men marry trophy wives and are rich enough to live in a high class neighborhood - but that is a whole other topic :laugh:

Food for Thought - what if it were an older rich black lady and her young mildly popular black buck living there :shrug: -- me thinks you'd be singing a different tune.

[irishgrl]

So, if any other balck person moeves to Brentwood with a mildly socially prominent wife, you are cool with ther :laugh:

Come on - you just HATE the fact that OJ sin't living in some ghetto with a sistah :laugh:

You also hate the fact that white men marry trophy wives and are rich enough to live in a high class neighborhood - but that is a whole other topic :laugh:

No, I hate that OJ manipulated the system to get himself a custom jury to get out of paying the price for murdering his wife. pure and simple.

[strandinthewind]

No, I hate that OJ manipulated the system to get himself a custom jury to get out of paying the price for murdering his wife. pure and simple.

That has nothing to do with him being an Uncle Tom.

Moreover, he lost because the evidence wasn't there. Most trial lawyers will tell you that.

[irishgrl]

That has nothing to do with him being an Uncle Tom.

Moreover, he lost because the evidence wasn't there. Most trial lawyers will tell you that.

The evidence was there. I read Marcia's book and I paid very close attention to that trial. In any event, even if you would have had overwhelming evidence, absolute smoking gun eyewitnessess, not to mention his own bizarre behavior, the JURY is what decided that case. His change of venue move guaranteed his acquittal. period. Once Johnny played the race card, it was a done deal.

as for the Uncle Tom part: OJ was all about White High Society until he needed his fellow Blacks to bail him out of a murder rap. Sad but true.

[BlackWidow]

No, I hate that OJ manipulated the system to get himself a custom jury to get out of paying the price for murdering his wife. pure and simple.

He also murdered Ron Goldman.
This is a touchy subject for me because I knew Nicole.

[strandinthewind]

. . . This is a touchy subject for me because I knew Nicole.

Wow - was she nice. She appeared to be so in the limited footage of her I saw.

[BlackWidow]

Wow - was she nice. She appeared to be so in the limited footage of her I saw.

Nicole was such a great person.
It is a tragedy beyond belief.
She basically was murdered for trying to regain her freedom
and seperate herself from a bad situation. Very sad. She was a
devoted Mother and friend. Her and Ron did not deserve that ending.