Any thoughts on the Anniversary of 9/11?

[irishgrl]

I'll keep most of my vitriol to myself but I must say, after viewing many of the 9/11 video clips on YouTube, Im consumed with hatred. still. I cant help it.

and I am paralyzed with shock over the magnitude of needless deaths. Im not able to stop crying...........after all these years...

and just to show that I know there are good Muslims, here is a 9/11 video by a Muslim:

Sept 11, 2001 NEVER FORGET (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNNrrSjFxV4&mode=related&search=)

[UnwindedDreams]

I'll keep most of my vitriol to myself but I must say, after viewing many of the 9/11 video clips on YouTube, Im consumed with hatred. still. I cant help it.

and I am paralyzed with shock over the magnitude of needless deaths. Im not able to stop crying...........after all these years...

and just to show that I know there are good Muslims, here is a 9/11 video by a Muslim:

Sept 11, 2001 NEVER FORGET (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNNrrSjFxV4&mode=related&search=)I was driving downtown the other day and I just thought about the emptiness there and how its been five years. And how all those people suffered. Innocent people going to work that day and never came home. I can't even look at clips from 9/11. I don't know how anybody can. But God bless all the families who lost loved ones and may those poor people who lost their lives have paradise upstairs...

[irishgrl]

I was driving downtown the other day and I just thought about the emptiness there and how its been five years. And how all those people suffered. Innocent people going to work that day and never came home. I can't even look at clips from 9/11. I don't know how anybody can. But God bless all the families who lost loved ones and may those poor people who lost their lives have paradise upstairs...

I can tell you that the horror is no less just because we are on the west coast.

I am trying to keep my anger in CHECK but its HARD!

[UnwindedDreams]

I can tell you that the horror is no less just because we are on the west coast.

I am trying to keep my anger in CHECK but its HARD!Oh I know...the horror is all over the world...and let me tell you I have a lot of anger too...and now the people that worked cleaning up ground zero are dying with diseases...how do ya like this?:(

[irishgrl]

Oh I know...the horror is all over the world...and let me tell you I have a lot of anger too...and now the people that worked cleaning up ground zero are dying with diseases...how do ya like this?:(

I think you can guess. Its reprehensible.

[UnwindedDreams]

I think you can guess. Its reprehensible.Yea it is...do you think that it's responsible for the diseases?

[irishgrl]

Yea it is...do you think that it's responsible for the diseases?

I have no opinion on that.........not enuff info (as it were).............but I suspect its true.

[SuzeQuze]

Yea it is...do you think that it's responsible for the diseases?

I do. The air quality was horrible with all of the chemicals released by the intense heat. But this is another issue the administration pretends does not exist.

I can't watch footage either. It was so horrible. And to think what this administration has done with 911 makes me absolutely sick to my stomach. There was a report released on Friday and signed by republican senators that said definitively that Bush and Cheney used false information to go to war with Iraq. It is really devastating to them IMO and when we get the D majority they will go down in flames.

[carrie721]

9/11/01 was my brother's 14th birthday. can you imagine?? kinda puts a damper on celebration.

[estranged4life]

coming on here that afternoon (Most of y'all werent members then) and the threads were of absolute shock & disbelief.

Later that day, Deb & myself drove to the Murrah National Memorial in downtown OKC to walk around and seek some peace of mind, But it was deadly silent..There was maybe only 10 people there that evening, And people had a look on their faces of "We've been through this before, To soon for the wounds to heal..".

Tonight on CBS (8PM EST/7PM CST) is the BEST doctumentary about 911, simply entitled "9-1-1", which was originally supposed to be a doctumentary about a rookie firefighter and tribulations to becoming a firefighter when history changed the story (The only footage of the first WTC attack was shot by the 2 French brothers who were making this doctumentary).

The footage of the WTC attacks doesnt bother me much, but I cannot watch footage of people falling to their end from high above in the WTC...That kinda haunted me for awhile.

[UnwindedDreams]

I do. The air quality was horrible with all of the chemicals released by the intense heat. But this is another issue the administration pretends does not exist.

It is really devastating to them IMO and when we get the D majority they will go down in flames.Damn right girl...I totally agree with you...

[Red]

I was driving downtown the other day and I just thought about the emptiness there and how its been five years.

I was in NY in May and that was something that really struck me too...being right in the middle of Manhatten, amongst all the tall buildings and there is this giant empty space. And all that emptiness brought back every memory, every visual and every emotion.

[Johnny Stew]

My thoughts on the eve of the fifth anniversary are the same as my thoughts for the past four... we haven't learned a single thing since 9/11/01. We're not better people -- we haven't learned how precious life is, or that we shouldn't be so cold and callous towards others. We're still just as self-centered, narrow-minded, materialistic and arrogant as ever before. Perhaps worse.

We haven't learned anything from those lives lost so tragically, and that's the greatest tragedy of all.

"I cannot pretend that the heartache falls away...."

[Nixxxed]

Here's a thought:

In the coming weeks, do you think we'll see the same overkill for the 5th anniversary of the anthrax attacks which never seem to get mentioned (because it contradicts the "we haven't been hit since 9/11" rhetoric)?

Say, Duba laying a wreath at AMI building in Florida that was rendered uninhabitable, or any of the postal facilities that required a billion dollars to decontaminate, or visiting the families of the 5 people who died?

My guess is no, since they still don't even have a single suspect. Unless of course ABC makes a movie about it which blames Clinton...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_anthrax_attacks

[skcin]

My thoughts on the eve of the fifth anniversary are the same as my thoughts for the past four... we haven't learned a single thing since 9/11/01. We're not better people -- we haven't learned how precious life is, or that we shouldn't be so cold and callous towards others. We're still just as self-centered, narrow-minded, materialistic and arrogant as ever before. Perhaps worse.

We haven't learned anything from those lives lost so tragically, and that's the greatest tragedy of all.

"I cannot pretend that the heartache falls away...."


I hate to agree with this, but I do. I try, but I can do better.

[DrummerDeanna]

My thoughts on the eve of the fifth anniversary are the same as my thoughts for the past four... we haven't learned a single thing since 9/11/01. We're not better people -- we haven't learned how precious life is, or that we shouldn't be so cold and callous towards others. We're still just as self-centered, narrow-minded, materialistic and arrogant as ever before. Perhaps worse.

We haven't learned anything from those lives lost so tragically, and that's the greatest tragedy of all.

"I cannot pretend that the heartache falls away...."


A true and sad point. And I am guilty of this too. You know, after seeing the Movie "World Trade Center" I was struck with how people came through for each other - that movie just touched my heart so much and made me want to do better...it reminded me of the wake-up call 9/11 gave me as well. To try and do better.

Sadly you're right - people have learned very little since 9/11. It's become such a distorted political tool - it makes me sick. Just the sheer number or people who STILL believe that sadaam and the Iraq war are linked to 9/11. It's alarming.

[The Tower]

The terrorists and those that were behind them accomplished their task and succeeded.

A small group of individuals killed thousands of people and scared the bejeezus out of hundreds of thousands of people, which allowed an evil administration to take advantage of that fear and kill tens of thousands more innocent lives, with the added bonus of majorly disrupting and destabilizing a section of the world that was already shaky to begin with.

There were terrorists before September 11th and there are terrorists after that date. Anyone who allowed the horror of what happened to convert that horror into retribution played exactly into the designs of the terrorists. The only way for extremists to bring in more followers is to have something drastic to fight against. Now there are many people out there that now have a reason to do exactly what the terrorists did on September 11th.

Violence begets violence. It's a never ending cycle. As it continues, the adversaries just sink lower and lower.

[strandinthewind]

. . . Just the sheer number or people who STILL believe that sadaam and the Iraq war are linked to 9/11. It's alarming.

I know - and that is IMO because most, but certainly not all, Americans do not care which Muslims pay for 9/11. Sad - very true.

I mean if we extrapolate that logic, then all Christians are terrorists beased on their relentless attacks on the Muslims over the last say three thousand years.

That mirror is hard to look at when the refelection is not one you want to see.

[estranged4life]

the local news (KWTV Channel 9) was reporting from the National Memorial in downtown OKC and at the "Survivor tree" were a few visitors from NYC (In the past I have seen NYPD & FDNY members at the Memorial)

Tonight there will be the "Freedom Walk" in downtown, but we'll miss it since Deb has to work tonight, otherwise we would be down there to participate.


"We'll never forget..."


Terrorism Prevention - MIPT - The National Memorial Institute for the Prevention of Terrorism located in Oklahoma City

http://www.mipt.org/

[DavidMn]

I still remember waking up for work that morning and hearing the news on the radio.:distress:

[mikeschmike]

I remember in the weeks after the attack that people DID come together, and were united if just for a little while. It was moving to see all of the people waving flags on overpasses and bridges, the gathering of great singers and artists raising money for these lost souls, and a feeling that we would get through this and be a great nation once more. Sadly, 9/11 is nothing but a political pawn these days. It gets brought up in debate and campaign slogans to inspire fear, and to put blame on one political party or another.

Stew is right, we haven't learned anything.

[irishgrl]

If we havent learned anything, I think its due in large part to the inept leadership, the wanton waste of resources just to grab at another country's oil.
The Vulcans were willing to commit any crime, allow any horror, subvert any process, smear any dissent to realize their goals. (The Vulcans are the Bush/Cheney inner circle)

I personally think Americans as a whole ARE capable of rising above as long as we have the right leader in place to be the best kind of example (see Brian J's 9/11 alternate reality thread).

No innocent life should be lost, be it Muslim/Christian/Jew.

[jkmaletic]

I remember trying to process it all, as it was all going down, as I was on my way to work. While at work, I remember thinking, should I even BE at work right now?? But I stayed, as most of us who had jobs did. I remember feeling scared, sad, and angry all at the same time. I had to fly shortly after it happened (to go see a Stevie show) and I had my doctor prescribe me something for nerves for the flight. It didn't help much. I remember the nightmares I would wake up to at night. I remember looking out my window everytime a plane would be flying a little too low.

I still have deep sadness about all the tragedy of 9-11. I WANT to go see the movies that have been coming out about it, but I know I wouldn't be able to sit through them without crying almost the entire time. The pain is so strong, isn't it? I can't even IMAGINE what it would be like to have actually lost someone as a result of those horrific attacks. God Bless them.

Today Howard Stern re-broadcast his show from 9-11-01 that he stayed on-air for, despite the attacks going on in their city. It brought so much back - the confusion of why the first plane hit, then the anger when the second one hit. And then the sadness and anger as the rest unfolded. I think we all pretty much had the same kinds of emotions going on during the whole thing.

Is our country safer now than before 9-11? I don't feel it is.

~jamie

[Nixxxed]

OUCH:

"This Hole in the Ground"

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6210240/

[irishgrl]

That was a blistering masterpiece of truth telling. Right ON Keith!
particularly pithy excerpts:
Five years later this space is still empty.

Five years later there is no memorial to the dead.

Five years later there is no building rising to show with proud defiance that we would not have our America wrung from us, by cowards and criminals.

Five years later this country's wound is still open.

Five years later this country's mass grave is still unmarked.

Five years later this is still just a background for a photo-op.

It is beyond shameful.


And there is something worse still than this vast gaping hole in this city, and in the fabric of our nation. There is its symbolism of the promise unfulfilled, the urgent oath, reduced to lazy execution.

The only positive on 9/11 and the days and weeks that so slowly and painfully followed it was the unanimous humanity, here, and throughout the country. The government, the President in particular, was given every possible measure of support.

Those who did not belong to his party -- tabled that.

Those who doubted the mechanics of his election -- ignored that.

Those who wondered of his qualifications -- forgot that.

History teaches us that nearly unanimous support of a government cannot be taken away from that government by its critics. It can only be squandered by those who use it not to heal a nation's wounds, but to take political advantage.

Terrorists did not come and steal our newly-regained sense of being American first, and political, fiftieth. Nor did the Democrats. Nor did the media. Nor did the people.

The President -- and those around him -- did that.

They promised bi-partisanship, and then showed that to them, "bi-partisanship" meant that their party would rule and the rest would have to follow, or be branded, with ever-escalating hysteria, as morally or intellectually confused, as appeasers, as those who, in the Vice President's words yesterday, "validate the strategy of the terrorists."

They promised protection, and then showed that to them "protection" meant going to war against a despot whose hand they had once shaken, a despot who we now learn from our own Senate Intelligence Committee, hated al-Qaida as much as we did.

The polite phrase for how so many of us were duped into supporting a war, on the false premise that it had 'something to do' with 9/11 is "lying by implication."

The impolite phrase is "impeachable offense."

Not once in now five years has this President ever offered to assume responsibility for the failures that led to this empty space, and to this, the current, curdled, version of our beloved country.

Still, there is a last snapping flame from a final candle of respect and fairness: even his most virulent critics have never suggested he alone bears the full brunt of the blame for 9/11.

Half the time, in fact, this President has been so gently treated, that he has seemed not even to be the man most responsible for anything in his own administration.

Yet what is happening this very night?

A mini-series, created, influenced -- possibly financed by -- the most radical and cold of domestic political Machiavellis, continues to be televised into our homes.

The documented truths of the last fifteen years are replaced by bald-faced lies; the talking points of the current regime parroted; the whole sorry story blurred, by spin, to make the party out of office seem vacillating and impotent, and the party in office, seem like the only option.

How dare you, Mr. President, after taking cynical advantage of the unanimity and love, and transmuting it into fraudulent war and needless death, after monstrously transforming it into fear and suspicion and turning that fear into the campaign slogan of three elections? How dare you -- or those around you -- ever "spin" 9/11?



in perhaps his finest piece of writing, Rod Serling sums it up with words of remarkable prescience, given where we find ourselves tonight: "The tools of conquest do not necessarily come with bombs and explosions and fallout. There are weapons that are simply thoughts, attitudes, prejudices, to be found only in the minds of men.

"For the record, prejudices can kill and suspicion can destroy, and a thoughtless, frightened search for a scapegoat has a fallout all its own -- for the children, and the children yet unborn."

When those who dissent are told time and time again -- as we will be, if not tonight by the President, then tomorrow by his portable public chorus -- that he is preserving our freedom, but that if we use any of it, we are somehow un-American...When we are scolded, that if we merely question, we have "forgotten the lessons of 9/11"... look into this empty space behind me and the bi-partisanship upon which this administration also did not build, and tell me:

Who has left this hole in the ground?

We have not forgotten, Mr. President.

You have.

May this country forgive you.

[gldstwmn]

OUCH:

"This Hole in the Ground"

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6210240/


Wow! That was cathartic. Matt Lauer gave it to him pretty good this morning. He didn't even give Chimpy a chance to sit down. It gets really good at about six minutes in to the clip.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/default.cdnx/id/14781377/displaymode/1157

[irishgrl]

First Keith Olberman, now Matt Lauer? wazzup?? (not that Im complaining mind you)

[SuzeQuze]

Wow! That was cathartic. Matt Lauer gave it to him pretty good this morning. He didn't even give Chimpy a chance to sit down. It gets really good at about six minutes in to the clip.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/default.cdnx/id/14781377/displaymode/1157

What, Lauer growing a pair? Whoa. I must see this. He used to be edgy in his younger days but got all soft.

[skcin]

What, Lauer growing a pair? Whoa. I must see this. He used to be edgy in his younger days but got all soft.

Maybe when Katie left he reclaimed his balls from her mantle? :shrug:

[becca]

Hey y'all.
I know this is a bit late but wanted to add that I think I've pesonally learned a ton since 2001. I've learned to put it in perspective better for one thing, which is kind of sad in a way. Almost 3,000 deaths directly from the terror attacks... almost 3,000 coalition soldiers in the middle east, a lot more civilian casualties in Afghanistan and Iraq, all eclipsed by African Aids deaths. Things happen with nobody videotaping them in this world.
I don't think people should ever forget either. The line where dwelling too much on an event measured in an hour and a half skews your view of things is up to each person to measure. If the English in London during the blitz had stopped everything whenever someone died in a terrible way I think they'd be speaking German these days. I am liking that No.7 is open now and that they are dreaming new dreams and building new buildings on the site.
The best documentary I saw was the two hour Frontline from a year afterward about people's questions and doubts about faith and hope. I didn't catch the CBS one unfortunately.

[strandinthewind]

. . . Things happen with nobody videotaping them in this world . . . .

I agree. I said this at the time (perhaps here) and got slammed as an uncaring jerk. I mean I feel horrible for anyone trapped in those buildings and I think there but for the Grace of God go I. But, when their heirs all started getting millions in hush money from the govt. and other sources, I was outraged. With no disrespect to any NYC firefoighter or police officer, how is dying there any different than dying in a burning building in a slum while trying to save a child. Both acts are equally as heroic and have all of my awe and appreciation. Yet, the 9/11 victim gets compensated like 10 to 20 times more just because it was 9/11. Same for the soldiers in the current wars. Why aren't they compensated like the widow of some poor soul who died when the buildings fell.

In the end, people were paid as hush money and not to sue. To me, that casts a somewhat bad light on the whole thing. Of course, I am a rank hypocrite because I would have taken the money had I sustained such a loss.

[irishgrl]

But, when their heirs all started getting millions in hush money from the govt. and other sources, I was outraged. With no disrespect to any NYC firefoighter or police officer, how is dying there any different than dying in a burning building in a slum while trying to save a child. Both acts are equally as heroic and have all of my awe and appreciation. Yet, the 9/11 victim gets compensated like 10 to 20 times more just because it was 9/11. Same for the soldiers in the current wars. Why aren't they compensated like the widow of some poor soul who died when the buildings fell.

In the end, people were paid as hush money and not to sue. To me, that casts a somewhat bad light on the whole thing. Of course, I am a rank hypocrite because I would have taken the money had I sustained such a loss.

Jason, I was under the impression that the (individual) heirs got diddly! EDIT: I found corroboration, however many objected to the amount the Govt offered (in exchange for waiving the right to sue) see below:


Common Dreams NewsCenter

Wednesday, September 13, 2006
Published on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 by the Toronto Star
Families Sue U.S., Reject 9/11 'Bribe'
Ignore Deadline for Compensation
by Tim Harper


WASHINGTON—For some, it's blood money, a repugnant payoff they feel they have no choice but to accept.

For a handful of others, the process of claiming compensation is too painful: they find themselves paralyzed by grief and unable to reopen emotional wounds barely healed from the deaths of their loved ones in the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.

But as many as 73 families see the process of U.S. government compensation as an attempt to protect those who should be held accountable for what they believe was mass murder.

They ignored a midnight deadline last night, their last chance to apply for government cash.


It's almost like it's a payoff to save the airlines and not hold any of those people responsible for what happened.

Irene Golinski, 53, whose husband died in the Pentagon attack
And today, they begin a new stage in an arduous odyssey and will sue their government, airlines and state and local authorities.

"This may be uncharted waters, but I was thrown in a pool on Sept. 11, 2001 and had to learn to swim," said Monica Gabrielle, who lost her husband Richard in the World Trade Center attack.

"I am doing this for my husband. He was a gentle man, and he was alive, trying to get out of that building that day. The dead. The dying. The smoke. The terror. No one should have suffered like that. I want accountability. I need answers."

The compensation fund has been controversial since President George W. Bush signed it into law 13 days after the attacks. For those who lost family members, it was always about protecting airlines, federal, state and local authorities from billions of dollars of lawsuits.

To receive the federal money, recipients must sign a waiver giving up their right to sue anyone involved in the worst terrorist attacks in U.S. history.

A late surge of claims on deadline yesterday meant close to 95 per cent of the 2,976 families who lost loved ones in New York, Washington and Pennsylvania were expected to finally take the money.

To get there, they had to accept a monetary value on the lives of those closest to them, after making a case based on birth and marriage licences, diplomas and degrees, even videos. They will, on average, receive $1.8 million (all figures U.S.) each.

Families of 24 Canadian victims are eligible for compensation and most have applied.

Brian Alexander, a New York lawyer representing a portion of the victims who have launched the lawsuit, said he knew of no Canadians involved.

He said those who have chosen to sue have put no dollar figure on awards and each claim will be individually tailored.

"A widow who is 80 years old is not in the same category as a widow who lost her husband at age 30 and has four kids at home," he said.

Some $1.5 billion had been paid from the government fund by the weekend. Compensation for individual deaths has ranged from $250,000 to $6.9 million. Those physically injured as a result of the attacks have received compensation ranging from $500 to $7.9 million.

"Only in America could there be a program like this," fund administrator Kenneth Feinberg told CNN yesterday.

"You wouldn't find a program paying an average $1.8 million tax-free to eligible families. This is an unprecedented, unique program and exhibits I think the best in the American people."

Yet Gabrielle says it is a bribe by the government so victims can be coerced into washing their hands of the affair.

She is also resentful that the government is determining the worth of loved ones.

"This is about mass murder," she said. "I want to know who was responsible.

"No one has been fired. No one has been demoted. The same people who are guarding us today on an elevated security alert are the same people who were working that day."

Gabrielle said she is looking at a special 9/11 commission headed by former New Jersey governor Thomas Kean to answer the question of responsibility.

Kean has battled the White House, New York and aviation authorities for access to documents. He has a May deadline.

"There are people that, if I was doing the job, would certainly not be in the position they were in at that time because they failed. They simply failed," Kean told CBS last week.

He said later he was talking of lower level officials, but Gabrielle and others want to know more about the safety of the buildings and airport security.

Even those who have accepted the money see it only as the lesser of two evils.

Irene Golinski, 53, whose husband died in the Pentagon attack, was still grappling with the decision to put 9/11 behind her or continue with a lawsuit.

"It's almost like it's a payoff to save the airlines and not hold any of those people responsible for what happened," she said.

Feinberg's office detailed some awards. The beneficiary of a 36-year-old project manager earning $231,000 and with one dependent was paid $3.48 million, while the beneficiary of a 26-year-old military officer with no dependents and a $44,000 salary got $1.84 million.

© Copyrighted 1997-2006
www.commondreams.org

[strandinthewind]

Here is an article

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week901/interview.html

[strandinthewind]

Also:

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/defenseandsecurity/a/randon911.htm

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/terrorism/july-dec01/compensation_12-20.html

The terms of the compensation fund for victims' families and survivors were announced today. The special master in charge of the fund said that those eligible will receive at least $300,000 in aid. The average award would be about $1.6 million.

____________________________________________________

To be clear - 9/11 was a horrible event and these people are victims and I hate that. But, people die of horrible events everyday and they do not get such compensation. What makes the death in the latter less relevant?

[irishgrl]

Interesting article on the anomalies of compensation:
Connecting the Dots

The 9-11 Passenger List Oddity
by Vincent Sammartino

As everyone who is involved in exposing the 9-11 cover-up knows, nothing concerning 9-11 is as it seems. Whether it's the magic jet that our government told us crashed into the Pentagon, the obvious missing jet at Shanksville (Flight 93), the three perfect demolitions of the World Trade Center towers, or the fact that Arab hijackers are still alive and their supposed ring leader Osama bin Laden has the ability to change his facial features at will. Nothing, I repeat, nothing about the government/controlled media version of 9-11 makes any sense.

So, let's get one thing straight and out of the way right now. There are no such things as physical inconsistencies in the world we live in. We can always depend on the laws of physics to be consistent and unchanging. Coincidence is a self-contained human concept; and the real world - the atoms, molecules and planets that whiz around - don't care if you understand them. Likewise, they aren't concerned if their movement happens to favor you or not. I say this because, as Victor Thorn and Lisa Guliani know (WING TV), this is the key to understanding what is real and what is contrived.

With that said, let me go back to sometime in February, 2004. At that time I had pretty much figured out that what had happened at the Pentagon and the WTC was a lie. I was still toying with the idea, though, that maybe (just maybe) our government had shot down Flight 93 in Shanksville in order to protect us from the real terrorists.

Then a few websites started to pop-up showing videos of what appeared to be a "pod" under Flight 175, along with an unexplained flash that happened just before the jet hit the South Tower. To me, this was just as damning as the Pentagon and the WTC collapses. There is no good reason for us to be seeing what we saw if the official government story was true. Think about this point for a minute. If what we saw was just an anomaly, then there must be millions of photos/videos of 757s taking off and landing at airports all over the world that look JUST LIKE THAT! If anybody has any jet photo anomalies they would like to share with us, please send them to Victor and Lisa at WING TV so we can clear this stuff up.

Which brings me to Ellen Mariani: she’s the woman who lost her husband Louis on Flight 175 that crashed into the South Tower on 9-11. With the help of a lawyer named Phil Berg, she filed a lawsuit against President Bush and company under the RICO act. Also, she refused to take the hush money that was offered to her under the 9-11 Victims Compensation fund.

In addition, I had just discovered Black Op Radio earlier in the year and found an interesting show in their archives (# 156) on which Ellen and Mr. Berg appeared as guests. This may be the single biggest point concerning 9-11, and hopefully the last nail in the coffin of our government's lies. During this broadcast, Mrs. Mariani said that she was the only relative of all the passengers that died on Flight 175 that crashed into the South Tower. Her lawyer, Phil Berg, repeated this statement.

I listened to this show over and over again and couldn't believe what she had just said. Everything came together at this point. That’s when it dawned on me that not only had our government lied about the physics of 9-11; they may very well have taken it one step farther by faking the number of people that died that day. I believed what she and Mr. Berg had just said. Nothing about 9-11 made any sense. Why should it start now?

Not knowing then what I know now, Ellen and Phil believed that for some reason the government was holding back the names of the people that had died on Flight 175. She had tried to get in touch with the relatives of other family members, but to no avail. You see, she and her lawyer believed, just like most other people believe, that four jets had been hijacked by Arab terrorists and crashed into buildings and into the ground at Shanksville. I, on the other hand, had already swept those lies aside.

Their statement also gave credence to the Fox News reporter who said that the jet which crashed into the South Tower had no windows. Hey, this jet appeared to have a "pod" under it anyway. The pieces of the puzzle were starting to fit.

Now, we come to most interesting stuff - the Social Security Death Index, and thanks to Victor Thorn's idea, the September 11th Victim’s Compensation Fund. After all, it's one thing to say that the flight lists are not on the up and up, but it's another thing to prove it.

The Social Security Death Index (SSDI) (Social Security Death Index) is a privately-owned website that is not affiliated with Social Security. It boasts an accuracy rate of about 83% (e-mail them any questions you may have). Anyway, to check its reliability, I inputted the names of people I knew that had died in my family, along with friends and neighbors. Being a true skeptic, I had no way of knowing whether they were telling the truth or not. With the exception of a cousin, I found everyone I was looking for. (Be sure you have the person's true first name - they may not be listed by the state they last lived in, but can be found in the state where their social security number was issued.) By all means try it yourself.

Which brings us to the 9-11 Victims Compensation Fund (also known as the Shut Up and Take the Money Fund), which most of you have heard about.

9-11 Victims Compensation Fund

This is where our government opened up the Treasury and gave family members of those who lost their lives that day lots of money. In return, these families were basically told to shut up about anything else concerning 9-11. (Considering all the lies surrounding this horrific event, you can see why.)

At this point there is one thing we should never forget, and that is how powerful the notion of human greed is. Remember this concept as you read the number of victims whose family members sought compensation.

The names of the victims can be found on the CNN website.

Here are the results:

Flight 11: of the 92 people who are listed as dying on this flight, only 20 are listed in the SSDI (22%)

Of these 20 people, only three are on the 9-11 Compensation Fund list:

Judy Larocque
Laurie Neira
Candace Lee Williams

=======================================

Flight 77: of the 64 people who are listed as dying on this flight, only 14 are listed in the SSDI (22%)

Of these 64 people, only five on the 9-11 Compensation Fund list:

William Caswell
Eddie Dillard
Ian Gray
John Sammartino
Leonard Taylor

=======================================

Flight 175: of the 65 people who are listed as dying on this flight, only 18 are listed in the SSDI (28%)

Of these 65 people, only three are on the 9-11 Compensation Fund list:

Michael C. Tarrou
Gloria Debarrera
Timothy Ward

=======================================

Flight 93: of the 45 people who are listed as dying on this flight, only 6 are listed in the SSDI (13%)

Of these 45 people, none are on the 9-11 Compensation Fund list:

No one

=======================================

Have you noticed anything strange yet? Of the passengers and crew of Flight 11, 77, 175 & 93, only 22%, 22%, 28%, 13% respectively are in the SSDI.

Remember human greed? Of the 266 people that we were told died on these jets, only 11 relatives applied for compensation. Can you believe that not a single relative from Flight 93 applied for compensation? I can't. Were all the relatives of the victims so rich that they weren't eligible to receive compensation? No, that's not it. (The minimum federal award was $250,000, and the average pay-out was about $1.8 million. The recipients only had to make agreement: they couldn’t sue the airlines.)

You should also know that most lawyers told their clients to take the money and run (which is what most lawyers would do - take the sure money). Ellen Mariani clearly elaborated on this point during her appearance on the radio show mentioned above.

Finally, during the past week, thanks to Lisa Guliani's insatiable quest for the truth, the 9-11 Victims Compensation Final Report has come to light.

9-11 Victims Compensation Final Report

Oddly, but consistent with everything concerning 9-11, the actual complete list of the people who benefited has been omitted from this report. Even without this, it does contain an interesting fact. According to the report, 98% of all the people who suffered a loss on 9-11 took the fund money. The average payment was $1.8 million.

But here's where it gets strange. According to the government, here are the number of people who accepted the compensation fund:

Out of a total of 92 people on Flight 11, only 65 accepted the 9-11 fund (71%)
Out of a total of 65 people on Flight 175, only 46 accepted the 9-11 fund (71%)
Out of a total of 64 people on Flight 77, only 33 accepted the 9-11 fund (52%)
Out of a total of 45 people on Flight 93, only 25 accepted the 9-11 fund (56%)

Does any of this seem a little odd to you? Or is it possible that not only were the jets on 9-11 magical, but their passengers as well?

So there you have it; yet another glaring 9-11 inconsistency - just maybe the biggest of them all?

Skeptically yours,
Vincent Sammartino

[irishgrl]

Also:

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/defenseandsecurity/a/randon911.htm

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/terrorism/july-dec01/compensation_12-20.html



____________________________________________________

To be clear - 9/11 was a horrible event and these people are victims and I hate that. But, people die of horrible events everyday and they do not get such compensation. What makes the death in the latter less relevant?

Jason I edited my post because I found corroboration. Please see my later post re: the anomalies of compensation and the notion of "hush money"

[irishgrl]

$116TRILLION Lawsuit filed :eek:

$116 trillion lawsuit filed by 9/11 families

August 16, 2002 Posted: 8:16 AM EDT (1216 GMT)
"It's up to us to bankrupt the terrorists," said Deena Burnett, whose husband was aboard the hijacked Flight 93 that crashed September 11.
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WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Acknowledging the odds are against them, relatives of the September 11 attacks filed a 15-count, $116 trillion lawsuit Thursday against the company run by Osama bin Laden's family, Saudi Arabian princes and Sudan.

The lawsuit was filed in U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia by more than 600 family members, plus some firefighters and rescue workers.

Calling themselves Families United to Bankrupt Terrorism, the plaintiffs are suing seven international banks; eight Islamic foundations, charities and their subsidiaries; individual terrorist financiers; the Saudi bin Laden Group; three Saudi princes; and the government of Sudan for allegedly bankrolling the terrorist al Qaeda network, Osama bin Laden and the Taliban.

The Saudi bin Laden Group is the construction company operated in Saudi Arabia by Osama bin Laden's brothers. Fifteen of the hijackers were Saudi Arabian, the FBI has said.

Deena Burnett, whose husband, Tom, was killed on hijacked Flight 93, which crashed in Pennsylvania, expressed optimism about the challenge at a news conference.

"It's up to us, and I think we can do it," she said. "It's up to us to bankrupt the terrorists and those who finance them so they will never again have the resources to commit such atrocities against the American people as we experienced on September 11."

RESOURCES
Complaint: Burnett v. al Baraka Investment and Dev. Corp. (FindLaw document, PDF format)


Co-lead counsel for the lawsuit is attorney Allen Gerson, one of the attorneys who negotiated a $2.7 billion settlement between the Libyan government and families of 270 people killed when Pam Am Flight 103 was blown up over Scotland in 1988.

Among the allegations in the complaint, said attorney Ron Motley, are that certain members of the Saudi royal family have been active supporters of and helped fund al Qaeda and bin Laden.

The attorneys and investigators were able to obtain, through French intelligence, the translation of a secretly recorded meeting between representatives of bin Laden and three Saudi princes in which they sought to pay him hush money to keep him from attacking their enterprises in Saudi Arabia, Motley said.

Burnett's father in law, Thomas E. Burnett Sr., who also spoke at the news conference, said the group was "taking unprecedented legal action against those whose money financed the unspeakable evil that occurred on that tragic day."

Matt Sellitto, whose 23-year-old son Matthew died at the World Trade Center, told reporters: "His loss is incomprehensible to me. My heart continues to ache and will ache for the rest of my life."

"If the odds are stacked against us, we will beat them," Sellitto said. "And we will pursue this action until justice is served and terrorism is stopped."

Matthew Sellitto worked at the Cantor Fitzgerald brokerage house on the 105th floor of One World Trade Center.

-- CNNfn Correspondent Allan Dodds Frank contributed to this report.

[strandinthewind]

They will never win it and even if they do, the company will never pay as the US will likely grant it immunity - and somewhat rightly so as I am unsure the company has any exposure.

In the end, I feel horrible for these victims. I really and truly do. I just do not think my tax dollars should enrich them tenfold when people die from horrible mean things every day and receive no such compensation.

On edit - and then only hetero married people got it despite Hillary's somewhat valiant effort to get it for gays and others. This is a prime example people of why you need to have an iron clad will, to wit:

http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?ItemId=13001

Feinberg rules

Kenneth Feinberg, the Special Master of the 9/11 Victim Compensation Fund, laid out the Administration's position regarding the families of gay and lesbian victims of 9/11 on the March 10 edition of NBC's "Meet the Press":

"[Gays and lesbians are] left out of my program to the extent that their own state doesn't include them. I cannot get into a position in this program, which has a one-and-a-half or two-year life, [and] start second-guessing what the state of New York or the Commonwealth of Massachusetts or the state of Virginia or New Jersey, how they treat same-sex partners, domestic live-ins, etc. I simply say this: What does your state law say about who is eligible? If your state law makes you eligible, I will honor state law. If it doesn't, I go with the state. Otherwise, Tim, I would find myself getting sued in every state by people claiming that I'm not following how the state distributes money. I can't get into that local battle. I've got to rely on state law."

Stick with me here. This is going to get a little complicated. Aravosis says that Feinberg's explanation is basic Washingtonese -- a little misleading. "In layman's terms, the money goes to the estate of the Sept. 11 deceased, and state law dictates how that money goes to a family. If the deceased had a will, and the will designated the partner as getting a portion of the estate, they're covered. But most people in America do not have wills. That's why they have to rely on state law. And almost no state recognizes the gay partner of the deceased.

"In fact, even in some states that recognize domestic partners who register, like California, if you don't have a will, your gay partner will still not get any money from your estate. As there are only three states that in any way recognize such partners --California, Vermont, and Hawaii, as well as Washington DC -- I have been told by lawyers representing gay and lesbian survivors that they expect some survivors will not get benefits. The state of Virginia, for example, has already sent a letter to the 18-year partner of one woman who [died] in the Pentagon that as her 'friend' she won't see a dime."

In essence, in a rather complicated and convoluted decision, families of gays and lesbians will not be given federal compensation unless they have wills, or the states they live in have laws recognizing domestic partnerships, which of course most states do not.

Given Feinberg's pronouncement, the president's much vaunted "compassionate conservatism," seems more like "dispassionate convolution." In many cases, the life partners of gay and lesbian victims of 9/11 will be getting screwed.
_________________________________________________________________

But, apparently some compensation was given:

Second Class Survivors
Gay and Lesbian Partners of 9-11 Victims Struggle to Receive Their Benefits

by Andy Humm
November 14 - 20, 2001









George Cuellar, who lost his partner of 20 years: Social security told him, "Don’t even think about it."
Photograph by Pak Fung Wong
George Cuellar lost the love of his life on September 11—"a nightmare," he says. Had Cuellar been able to marry his partner, he would now be entitled to a wide array of government and private benefits. But because his partner, Luke Dudek, was another man, their 20 years together counts for nothing to the federal government.

Cuellar says the people at the Family Assistance Center have been "wonderful. They treated me with nothing but respect. But when I went for Social Security, they looked at me and said, 'Don't even think about it.' "

No federal program benefits domestic partners. But the 9-11 disaster has changed a lot of things. Whether the new spirit of unity will apply to gay and lesbian survivors depends largely on John Ashcroft. The attorney general will decide, reportedly over the next few weeks, which survivors are entitled to relief under the Airline Stabilization Act. Congress put up $15 billion to sustain the industry and offer settlements—probably $1 million—to each survivor who forgoes a lawsuit against the airlines. As of now, the wording of the resolution leaves the fate of gay and lesbian survivors unclear.

"I let everyone out there interpret the phrase 'families of victims' accordingly," says Justice Department spokesperson Charles Miller. He refused to state explicitly that domestic partners were welcome to apply to the September 11th Victim Compensation Fund.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The late Luke Dudek, who was food and beverage controller for Windows on the World, spent the last week of his life helping Cuellar with their flower shop in Cedar Grove, New Jersey. Now trying to put together the pieces of his life, Cuellar faces a mixed and shifting landscape, especially if he tries to access programs funded by Washington. He will fare better as he navigates the various relief agencies.

For the first time since it was founded in 1881, the American Red Cross is explicitly offering disaster relief to domestic partners left behind. Gay groups like New York's Empire State Pride Agenda immediately lobbied the agency. "The minute it happened, we knew there would be surviving partners," says Matt Foreman, ESPA's executive director.

Gay groups also lobbied Governor George Pataki, who was about to keynote ESPA's annual dinner, to amend his September 11 emergency executive order by redefining a "dependent person" eligible for relief from the Crime Victims Board—up to $600 a week with a cap of $30,000—to include those showing "mutual interdependence." Only a few years ago, the state-run board had fought successfully in court for the right not to treat domestic partners the same as spouses, as city law would require. "We can learn a little bit from September 11," Pataki told the ESPA crowd.

State Senator Tom Duane, a leader of the gay community, has written Pataki asking him to go further and make domestic partners of uniformed workers who were killed eligible for pensions and other benefits. Edgar Rodriguez, a gay cop, asked the governor's counsel about this at the ESPA dinner and was told that Pataki "wanted to work on it."

Things are clearer when it comes to city benefits. Safe Horizon, the new name for the city's Victim Services Agency, offers survivors, including domestic partners, up to $1500 every two weeks, to a maximum of $10,000. A spokesperson for the group said they can even help unrelated roommates who have proof of interdependency.

As the partner of someone who worked in the food, beverage, or hospitality businesses at the twin towers, Cuellar can also apply to the Windows of Hope Family Relief Fund. However, like most charities set up by Trade Center firms, it does not specify coverage for domestic partners.
Voice calls to the scores of funds listed at the World Trade Center Relief Web site found that most—like Cantor Fitzgerald, Carr Futures, and Marsh & McLennan—will cover unmarried partners. But this arrangement isn't mentioned on any of their Web sites. And while domestic partners in New York City have certificates as proof, those who did not or could not register—like the suburban Cuellar—will have to negotiate over the legitimacy of their relationships. "We're setting up guidelines," says Darlene Dwyer of Windows of Hope.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The most sustaining forms of relief are the fed's Social Security and state pensions and worker's compensation, all of which would require new legislation to include domestic partners. Gay lobby groups are not seriously attempting to lobby for this change now. "We don't even have civil rights protections in New York," notes Foreman. Neither Pataki nor state senate leader Joe Bruno's office returned calls asking whether they would support new legislation on gay rights.

However, the House of Representatives did take a small step toward equality when it voted recently to allow the District of Columbia to implement domestic-partner benefits for some employees. Gay activists are buoyed by the vote, but they are not optimistic when it comes to securing benefits nationwide. Right-wing leaders like the Reverend Lou Sheldon of the Traditional Values Coalition have already charged that gays "are taking advantage of this national tragedy to promote their agenda." It seems unlikely that conservatives will stand for a redefinition of the family, despite the plight of survivors like Cuellar.

The Human Rights Campaign is lobbying the administration to include domestic partners. "The fact that the language of the relief bill is open is helpful," says Barney Frank, the House's senior gay member. But expecting Congress to pass gay-inclusive language is "wildly optimistic." His strategy: "I will focus on the attorney general."

Senator John McCain wept as he eulogized his former campaign volunteer Mark Bingham, the gay rugby player who went down with United flight 93 in Pennsylvania, and may have helped bring down the plane before it could hit Washington. "I may very well owe my life to Mark," McCain said. But he did not return calls about whether Bingham's partner would deserve any consideration as a spouse.

New York senators Hillary Clinton and Chuck Schumer support gay partnership rights, especially for September 11 survivors. Schumer wrote to Ashcroft urging compensation for domestic partners. "Preliminary vibes are not as bad as we'd think," the senator told the Voice. But Clinton is concerned about "political blowback" from "the more ideological House GOP leadership."

There was one piece of good news last week: Gerald Ford became the highest-ranking Republican to endorse equal treatment for gay couples. "People are more receptive to the basic human story of gay and lesbian families after 9-11," says Evan Wolfson, a longtime advocate for equal marriage rights. But survivors like Cuellar are still far from being treated equally when they need it most.

http://www.villagevoice.com/generic/show_print.php?id=29715&page=humm&issue=0146&printcde=MzQ3NDQ0NDQ5NQ==&refpage=L25ld3MvaW5kZXgucGhwP2lzc3VlPTAxNDYmcGFnZT1odW1tJmlkPTI5NzE1

__________________________________________________________________________

I suppose the fags got what they deserved and God does not want them compensated as much as the unrepentent cheating hetero spouse who died or survived, which surely occured. I mean if we are going to judge sin as a basis for compensation, I think the hetero marrieds should have to prove they too were without sin rather than assuming their marital state is de facto.

[irishgrl]

The whole thing stinks Jason :distress:

[strandinthewind]

The whole thing stinks Jason :distress:

It is just one more thing - and the fact that the vast majority of voters approved no gay marriage just means it is not just the neocons - though they are the ones who start the fight as I do not think the D's would promulgate the legislation sua sponte.

The moral of the story though is to get a will. That way, the channel of the compensation mostly cannot be argued.

[estranged4life]

Gee, I remember when OKC bombing survivors/heirs of survivors asked for compensation (Most to help pay medical bills and/or funeral expenses) and received NONE.

So what exactly is the difference between the terror attacks that caused survivors of one to receive compensation and another to not?

[strandinthewind]

Gee, I remember when OKC bombing survivors/heirs of survivors asked for compensation (Most to help pay medical bills and/or funeral expenses) and received NONE.

So what exactly is the difference between the terror attacks that caused survivors of one to receive compensation and another to not?

None. Political exploitation IMO.

[SuzeQuze]

Gee, I remember when OKC bombing survivors/heirs of survivors asked for compensation (Most to help pay medical bills and/or funeral expenses) and received NONE.

So what exactly is the difference between the terror attacks that caused survivors of one to receive compensation and another to not?

Omigod, they got nothing? That's rediculous. :distress: I guess OKC has been largely eclipsed by 9/11 and that sucks.

O'Reilley admitted on his show last night that going to war on flawed intelligence was wrong. :eek: Although he said he felt Dubya probably didn't know the intelligence was flawed at the time.

[gldstwmn]

Gee, I remember when OKC bombing survivors/heirs of survivors asked for compensation (Most to help pay medical bills and/or funeral expenses) and received NONE.

So what exactly is the difference between the terror attacks that caused survivors of one to receive compensation and another to not?

To not compensate those people in any way is unconscionable.

[estranged4life]

about Flight 93...but be warned, it will make you cry:

No greater love - Dateline NBC - MSNBC.com

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14789502/

[strandinthewind]

., . . O'Reilley admitted on his show last night that going to war on flawed intelligence was wrong. :eek: Although he said he felt Dubya probably didn't know the intelligence was flawed at the time.

I think he has been saying that for awhile now. His position is that no one really knew what SH had and the intelligence for a decade or more demonstrated something was going on. So, after 9/11, the US and world could no longer afford to risk it and not hold SH accountable. Interestingly, this morrors Bill Clinton's position.

When BO goes on record as saying W prematurely halted the inspections because he knew they would reveal not enough to support the war and then went to war anyway - we'll talk :laugh:

[estranged4life]

Omigod, they got nothing? That's rediculous. :distress: I guess OKC has been largely eclipsed by 9/11 and that sucks.

I would say "no", people in OKC dont feel that way about the Murrah Building attack in comparison to the 911 attacks.

Yes, OKC survivors were not 'qualified' to receive any compensation from the US govt., though the OKC attack took place at an US government controlled office building (Operated by the GSA.)

Even before 911 (I believe as early as the end of 1995/Early 1996), OKC survivors were not eligible for ANY compensation. After 911 when OKC survivors asked for any compensation they were once again denied.

I would like to know why those in my home state were not eligible for compensation, what were the qualifications one needed to qualify that the US govt felt they did not meet?

[Nixxxed]

Did you guyz see The Daily Show last night rip on Bush's speech? Classic.

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[becca]

A lot of the reaction to the 9/11 attacks has been to throw large sums of money wildly about. One of Al quaida's strategies is to bankrupt the U.S. through a predicted overreaction mainly through a prolonged very expensive occupation (initially expected to have been Afghanistan though), but wild spending on protection/security counts along with any other reactionary feel-good spending as well as services and infrastructure for occupation forces (soldiers don't peel potatoes or dig latrines since Haliburton and subsidiaries have made it a privatised for profit area).

I remember when Agent Orange exposure 'never happened' and didn't have to be dealt with, so lower Manhattan toxins exposure will possibly 'never happened' for long enough for many effected to die off (and save the beuraucracy money that way). Beuraucraces are usually penny wise and pound foolish this way anyway, but basically we live in a very media driven political culture, so until it makes the networks and then the polls nationally it doesn't exist, which is why neo-conservatives started their 'revolution' through things like radio shows by Liddy and Limpdick er Limbaugh, and books that went to Christian specialty book stores sometimes including the rapture and some not.

I think we are doing some great work in Afghanistan causing real problems for a terrorism network, and that's not all undone by the war in Iraq. A lot of things have gone wrong for the people behind the WTC attack, most of what has gone right for them though has been in what we have done to ourselves in response or in memory of.