GRRR Stupid Boy Scouts!!!

[irishgrl]

apparently you must profess a belief in God, and attend some sort of service or you cant join or advance in rank. they dont recognize the Wiccan Way either.

Im really pissed right now because my son wants to join but I'll be DAMNED if I'll let the Religious Fundies force me or my boy to attend an organized religious service. and just in case anyone doubts their position:
All levels of advancement in the Scouting program have requirements recognizing “duty to God”:

● Bobcat Cub Scout
A boy is required to promise to do his best to do his “duty to God,” which means “Put God first. Do what you know God wants you to do.” (seems harmless right?)

● Wolf Cub Scout
A boy is required to “[t]alk with your folks about what they believe is their duty to God,” “[g]ive some ideas on how you can practice or demonstrate your religious beliefs,” and “[f]ind out how you can help your church, synagogue, or religious fellowship.” (unless your church isnt recognized by BSA...then what?)

● Bear Cub Scout
A boy is required to “[p]ractice your religion as you are taught in your home, church, synagogue, mosque, or other religious community” or “[e]arn the religious emblem of your faith.” (see below)

● Webelos Scout
A boy is required to either “[e]arn the religious emblem of your faith” or do two of the following:

“Attend the church, synagogue, mosque, or other religious organization of your choice, talk with your religious leader about your beliefs, and tell your family and Webelos den leader about what you learned.”;

“Tell how your religious beliefs fit in with the Scout Oath and Scout Law, Discuss this with your family and Webelos den leader: What character-building traits do your beliefs and the Scout Oath and Scout Law have in common?”;

“With your religious leader, discuss and write down two things you think will help you draw nearer to God. Do these things.”;

“Pray to God or meditate reverently each day as taught by your family, and by your church, synagogue, or religious group. Do this for at least one month.”;

“Under the direction of your religious leader, do an act of service for someone else. Talk about your service with your family and Webelos den leader. Tell them how it made you feel.”; or

“List at least two ways you believe you have lived according to your religious beliefs.”



and they dont recognize Wiccan religious symbols (for example, the Hart and Crescent--Question: since AA talks about a higher power, are they a religious organization? I gotta wonder how that would play in the press.

Answer: Yes, they are. Courts in several states have ruled that AA attendance can't be mandatory precisely because they are a religious organization, because of that bit about a "higher power" (AA isn't the only game in town, and their success rate isn't very good anyway). Courts can mandate alcohol treatment, but they can't mandate theistic alcohol treatment.

The BSA has refused to recognize a Wiccan religious award (the Hart and Crescent) apparently because they don't like that religion.

taken from Are the Boy Scouts a Religion? (http://www.stonescryout.org/archives/2006/02/the_boy_scouts.html)


And here is a court case they lost (check out the last sentence--this is from the BSA legal issues site):
● Barnes-Wallace v. Boy Scouts of America, 275 F. Supp. 2d 1259 (S.D. Cal. 2003) The City of San Diego has established policies for leasing City property to nonprofit groups which benefit the community. Other lessees include the Girl Scouts, the Salvation Army, a Jewish Community Center, and Presbyterian churches, among dozens of other community organizations. Still other groups receive money subsidies from the City, although Boy Scouts does not. Nevertheless, the District Court held that the lease to Boy Scouts violated the Establishment Clause because the City did not seek non-religious bidders to compete for the lease. The effect of the decision is to discriminate against Boy Scouts for believing in God.


there's more believe me...Im just outraged that the Fundies have taken over this hallowed American Organization. I know it wasnt like this when my Brother was a member...and to show Im not Bull****ting ya:

Hey, the Boy Scouts USED to be a public accommodation until they got taken over by theists. Shoot I got my Religion merit badge with a project that basically said the only viable religion was Deism signed off by a Baptist minister.

What happened is the BSA went before the highest court of the land and claimed they had become a private religious organization and by doing so they voluntarily closed a number doors that are open to public accommodations. A federal agency CAN'T sponsor a private discriminatory religious youth group anymore than they could a chapter of DeMoley or the KKK Youth. Civil municipalities operate under the same rules usually. The BSA tossed all these options away because THEY changed and they became something they hadn't been in the past.

Any price they pay is the result of their own actions and of their own choice. Private religious organizations shouldn't expect to get special deals from civic governments.

Posted by: BobVB at February 19, 2006 08:59 PM

more by BobVB:
As long as the BSA has a religious test for participation they ARE a religious organization be definition! This isn't about an 'acknowledgement' of God', the YMCA has that - but they REQUIRE a belief in God for participation -that they clearly confirmed this by their own statements before the Supreme Court of the United States is just icing on the cake.

(all these blog posts are found on the above link should anyone care to read the whole page, I must say its pretty enlightening...)

[irishgrl]

http://www.bsalegal.org/faqs-113.htm

Frequently Asked Questions

On this page we will answer the questions most frequently asked about Boy Scouts' legal issues, from its views and policies to individual cases. In the coming days we will add new sections dealing with current and past cases.

Q. Can an individual who states that he does not believe in God be a volunteer Scout leader or member?

A. No. The Scout Oath represents the basic values of Scouting, and it addresses the issue of “duty to God” before duty to country, others, and self.


Q. Why is duty to God important to Scouting?

A. Since its founding in the United States in 1910, the Boy Scouts of America has had an ongoing commitment to encouraging moral, ethical and spiritual growth. The Boy Scouts of America believes that the principles set forth in the Scout Oath and Law are central to Boy Scouts’ goals.


Q. What harm would come of admitting young people who are unwilling to do their duty to God?

A. The Scout Oath and Law have served as the foundation of Scouting for 94 years. It would be a disservice to over five million youth and adult members of Scouting to allow members to pick and choose among the elements of the Oath or Law.


Q. How does the Boy Scouts of America define religion?

A. Boy Scouts of America is not a religion; it is a nonsectarian association of persons who believe in God. The Declaration of Religious Principle describes God in a broadly interfaith way as “the ruling and leading power in the universe” to whom we are grateful for “favors and blessings.”


Q. What religions are involved with Scouting?

A. Virtually every religion is represented in the Boy Scouts of America, from Catholics and Protestants, to the Armenian Church of America and Zoroastrians. The Religious Relationships Committee, which includes over 30 religious groups represented in Scouting, determines whether a religion is an appropriate partner for Scouting, and reviews any “duty to God” material which is to be used in Scouting for consistency with Boy Scout policies.


Q. What allows the Boy Scouts of America to exclude atheists and agnostics from membership?

A. The Boy Scouts of America is a private membership group. As with any private organization, Boy Scouts’ retains the constitutional right to establish and maintain standards for membership. Anyone who supports the values of Scouting and meets these standards is welcome to join the organization.


Q. Don't Boy Scouts discriminate against gays and atheists?

A. Boy Scouts of America is one of the most diverse youth groups in the country, serving boys of every ethnicity, religion, and economic circumstance and having programs for older teens of both sexes. That Boy Scouts also has traditional values, like requiring youth to do their "duty to God" and be "morally straight" is nothing to be ashamed of and should not be controversial. No court case has ever held that Boy Scouts discriminates unlawfully, and it is unfortunate here that anyone would characterized Boy Scouts' constitutionally protected right to hold traditional values as "discriminatory." That is just name-calling.


Q. May an individual who openly declares himself to be a homosexual be a volunteer Scout leader?

A. No. The Boy Scouts of America is a private membership organization; leadership in Boy Scouting is a privilege and not a right. Boy Scouts believes that homosexual conduct is not compatible with the aims and purposes of Scouting and that a known or avowed homosexual does not present a desirable role model for the youth in the Scouting program. Boy Scouts will continue to select only those who meet Boy Scout standards and qualifications for membership.


Q. What does “known or avowed” mean?

A. “Known” is what is known about you. “Avowed” is what you say about yourself. “Known” focuses on cases where someone has engaged in conduct in the community which makes it clear that he or she engages in homosexual conduct. The major cases, however, have been those in which open or “avowed” homosexuals have come forward to test the policy.

Q. Why is the leadership role so important to Scouting?

A. The responsibility for instilling Scouting values and beliefs is entrusted to adult volunteer leaders. One of the most important methods of Scouting is adult association, because association with adults of high character is critical to a boy’s development. Scouting’s program for instilling values in young people teaches through both principles and concrete examples of adult leaders. Adult volunteer leaders not only espouse Scouting’s values and beliefs, but more importantly they embody them as role models to Scouting youth. Through teaching, counseling, and role modeling, adult leaders play a critical role in transmitting Scouting values and beliefs to the boys. A boy may spend more time with his Scoutmaster, on weekend campouts and other small-group activities away from home, than he spends with his own father.


Q. Why don’t you allow each individual chartered organization to decide on whether an individual homosexual is a suitable leader or not?

A. Boy Scouts believes it is important to have national uniformity of values. Troops from all over get together at camporees on a district and council level, and once every four years at the national Jamboree. Few youth organizations can claim that sort of national identity.


Q. May a group of individuals who openly profess to be homosexuals obtain a unit charter?

A. No. The ability to charter a Cub Scout Pack or Boy Scout Troop is a privilege and not a right. Boy Scouts of America reserves the right to grant or withhold charters upon the basis of the aims and purposes of the Scouting program.


Q. Is Boy Scouts implying that homosexuals do not have good moral or emotional character? What about other types of sexual immorality?

A. Boy Scouts regards homosexual conduct as not morally straight as required in the Scout Oath. Morally straight is a broad term which includes all types of moral behavior. There are many persons who may be unsuitable role models of the Oath and Law for adolescent boys.


© 2004 Boy Scouts of America
www.bsalegal.org

[irishgrl]

This excerpt is from ReligiousTolerance.org:

The organization has excluded potential members and has expelled current members who are:
bullet Members of religious organizations (or individuals with personal religious beliefs) that do not have a belief in a god. This includes Agnostics, Atheists, some Unitarian Universalists, some Buddhists, and others.
bullet Persons with minority sexual orientations, including both homosexuals and bisexuals. Indications of homosexual behavior are not needed; merely a homosexual or bisexual orientation is sufficient grounds to terminate a membership. They are not expelled because of something that they do; they are expelled because of what they are. The beliefs of the BSA go beyond even those of most conservative and some mainline Christians. They believe that both homosexual orientation and behavior is immoral.

The Girl Guides have an oath that is similar to the Boy Scouts:

"On my honor, I will try, to serve God & my country,
to help people at all times,
and to live by the Girl Scout Law."

However, since 1999, they allow individual girls to opt out of the use of the word "God." They can substitute Jehovah, the Goddess, the Great Spirit, etc. (do I sense a double standard here?) This allows girls who follow Buddhism, Humanism, Unitarian Universalism, and other faith groups to join.

The BSA does not require its members to be Christian, or even monotheistic. They allow Scouts to wear religious emblems from the Asatru, Bah'ai, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, and Zoroastrian faiths (But NOT Wiccan however). They permitted, then cancelled, then permitted, then finally cancelled the wearing of emblems by Unitarian Universalist Boy Scouts. Buddhists, in theory, do not recognize the existence of a personal god. So taking an oath to god would seem to violate their theological beliefs. Hindus worship many gods and goddesses. Zoroastrians recognize a dual divinity - one good and one evil. Followers of Asatru recognize the existence of Norse Gods and Goddesses. It would seem that belief in multiple deities would make it difficult for a Scout to swear to love or do their duty to a single god. But somehow, these minority religions are accepted. It appears that any deity or set of deities will meet the BSA standards. (Huh! How do they explain that?)

[estranged4life]

we dont have a boy who would want to join the Boy Scouts:

#1-Deb is a Wiccan

#2 I saw how they somewhat brainwashed my 2 older brothers all those years ago, that I promised no child of mine would be allowed to ever join.

I'm ever thankful my Mother let me play Baseball instead of join the scouts.

[irishgrl]

more from ReligiousTolerance.org:

To our knowledge, all of the court cases involving BSA membership or employment discrimination revolve around the nature of the organization. Two options are:
bullet Is BSA a private group, like a church or a chapter of the Masonic order? It would be called an "expressive association" in legal language. Such organizations can discriminate freely against women or minorities, even if human rights legislation exists which normally prohibits discrimination based on sex, religion, sexual orientation, etc. Analogies would be the Mormon church which once prohibited African-Americans from being ordained, or the Roman Catholic Church which still discriminates on the basis of gender. The BSA takes the position that it is distinctly private. In support of this argument BSA states:
bullet It is basically a collection of small, local, intimate groups, called troops or packs or posts.
bullet Forcing the BSA to accept homosexual members would be like requiring the NAACP to accept a Klansman into their group.
bullet Gays, Atheists, etc. who bring lawsuits against the BSA are not really sincere members of the BSA. They are "testers" with a personal agenda.
bullet Is it a "place of public accommodation" which attempts to make scouting available to every boy who wants it. In favor of this argument:
bullet The BSA is the largest youth movement in the world. Between 1992 and 1996, the BSA total assets in the U.S. increased from 277 million to 441 million dollars.
bullet BSA's federal charter obligates them to serve all boys.
bullet Other than discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation and religious belief, BSA has no barriers to membership. It aggressively recruit new members.
bullet Many troops are sponsored by government agencies (e.g. public schools, military base, fire department) and thus cannot discriminate on the basis of religion.
bullet Federal laws have been passed to allow the military to provide transportation for Scouts and to loan them equipment without charge. Every national Boy Scout jamboree since 1981 has been held on a military base.
bullet All recent presidents of the U.S. have been honorary presidents of the BSA.
bullet Many local councils receive substantial funding from the United Way. Such United Ways have a national and local policy of not ordinarily funding any charitable organization which discriminates on a basis of religion or sexual orientation. Some United Ways have stopped funding the Boy Scouts. However, many still continue such funding.
bullet BSA operates and licenses retail stores to sell Scouting materials and literature to both BSA members and the general public.
bullet Groups that are much smaller and private than the Boy Scouts have been recognized as public accommodations. One example is Big Brothers of the National Capital Area.

One source lists some criteria which determine whether a group is "distinctly private": its selectivity in admitting members; its advertising for members; its history; its commercial nature; the use of its facilities by nonmembers; and the use of public facilities by its members. 1

Results of recent court cases, and reactions to them:

The BSA policy of excluding persons with unacceptable religious beliefs and persons with homosexual or bisexual orientation has been the topic of many court cases, starting in 1981. There has been no clear pattern of wins or losses in lawsuits before the courts, and cases before human rights commissions.
bullet 1998: The American Civil Liberties Union sued the City of Chicago over both the religious and sexual orientation issues in the Scouting units that the city entities sponsored. The city ended its affiliation with the BSA. The Parent/Teacher Association has adopted a national policy of not permitting its chapters to sponsor Scouting units.
bullet 1999-APR - Illinois: The ACLU initiated a suit against the Chicago public schools and the Scott Air Force Base in southern Illinois. The ACLU position is that "Schools, military bases and other publicly funded groups have no business sponsoring Boy Scout troops so long as Scouts are required to take a religious oath...public funding of Boy Scouts of America troops violates the constitutional requirement of separation of church and state." 2
bullet 1999-AUG-5 - New Jersey court case: The New Jersey Supreme Court "unanimously struck down the Boy Scouts' policy banning gays from being members or leaders in the organization..." 3 George Davidson, attorney for the Boy Scouts vowed to appeal the case to the Supreme Court. The case was brought by James Dale, 29, of Matawan, NJ. He had been in the BSA for 12 years, had earned about 30 merit badges, and was an assistant Scoutmaster.
bullet The ruling read, in part, ''To recognize the Boy Scouts' First Amendment claim would be tantamount to tolerating the expulsion of an individual solely because of his status as a homosexual - an act of discrimination unprotected by the First Amendment freedom of speech.''
bullet Another part of the ruling said that the BSA policy is "based on little more than prejudice...The human price of this bigotry has been enormous."
bullet BSA spokesman Paul Stevenson said: "The law against discrimination as applied to the Boy Scouts is unconstitutional...'The New Jersey law against discrimination applies [only] to public accommodations. The Boy Scouts is a private accommodation, and as such we're not covered.''
bullet Plaintiff James Dale said that his Scouting experience prepared him for the legal battle. "[This is] exactly what Scouting has taught me: to believe in the system and that justice will prevail...When I was growing up, I didn't know I was gay, but the Boy Scouts made me feel good about who I was. Whether or not they know it, the Boy Scouts do wonderful things for gay kids across the country.''
bullet The American Family Association Center for Law & Policy is a conservative Christian group. Their Chief Counsel, Steve Crampton, stated: "traditional moral values were placed squarely in the court's cross-hairs today when it pulled its rhetorical trigger-equating the reasons for BSA's revocation of Dale's membership with 'the cancer of discrimination.' The New Jersey Supreme Court's ruling is nothing less than an official indictment of all who believe homosexuality is immoral - it is a rejection of the moral teachings of over 2000 years of Western Civilization." Brian Fahling, Senior Trial Attorney stated: "the intrusion of the government into the affairs of private organizations is now complete. First we were prohibited from expressing our moral values in the public square, now we are told that we may not express them even among ourselves in private associations." 4
bullet 1999-AUG-11 - United Methodist Church troop sponsorship: 11,738 of the 37,000 congregations of the United Methodist Church sponsor Scout troops. They sponsor a total of 421,579 boys. Methodist churches currently sponsor about 12% of all of the BSA troops in the U.S. A drive has been organized to have a troop in every church. But the denomination has a ban on discrimination based on sexual orientation. Jane Hall Harvey, UMC assistant general secretary said: "We believe non-discrimination is the order of the day." The denomination will shortly be asked if its ban on discrimination based on sexual orientation applies to Scouting. If they pull out of the BSA the possibility exists for UMC Scout troops to form the nucleus of a parallel Boy Scouts organization -- one that does not discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation or religion.
bullet 1999-AUG-11 - Providence, RI decision: The Narragansett Council of the BSA in Providence RI announced a new policy on gays that was approved by the BSA head office in Irving TX. The council acknowledge publicly that a Scout can be a homosexual, as long as he doesn't advertise it. This is, in effect, the same don't ask, don't tell policy as is used by the U.S. military. This may signal the path for the BSA in the future: to adopt a type of local option concerning discrimination. Mary Bonauto, a spokesperson for the Gay and Lesbian Advocates and Defenders in Boston MA commented: "It sounds to me like the Boy Scouts are in retreat...They acknowledge the sexual orientation of their members is none of their business." The Westboro Baptist Church, owner of the homophobic www.godhatesfags.com web site, announced that they will be picketing both Irving and Providence on 1999-SEP.
bullet 1999-AUG-17 - BSA Study: The executive committee of the BSA had received a resolution which would authorize a study by a 12-member panel to review "the scientific and medical basis for the determination of sexual orientation." They would also review "The moral and religious basis for defining homosexuality as a moral issue." The panel would call for input from medical experts and religious leaders. Part of the mandate of the panel would be to consider changes to the BSA membership policies. Gregg Shields, a BSA spokesperson, was keen to point out that "This is a resolution. It's not a study, and it's not a policy" The resolution was referred to the "relationships committee...The nation [sic] executive committee is dedicated to the polices that we have in place, and we don't foresee those changing"
bullet Ongoing - San Diego CA: The American Civil Liberties Union and the Tom Homann Law Association have asked the city of San Diego to end its financial subsidies to the Boy Scouts until the BSA ends its discrimination based on sexual orientation and religion. The legal groups are also asking that the city council end its $1.00 annual lease to the Boy Scouts council for their headquarters office in Balboa Park. An end to the rent-free use of city-owned property on Fiesta Island was also sought. The city and ACLU settled the case in 2004. The city will pay almost $1 million in legal fees and court costs; the Boy Scouts will be evicted.
bullet 1999-SEP: The Commission on United Methodist Men of the United Methodist Church criticized the New Jersey court ruling.
bullet 1999-SEP-16: Presidential candidates: A newsletter that opposes equal rights for gays and lesbians, "Straight from the Heart," asked various Republican presidential candidates for their opinions on homosexuals in the Boy Scouts. A spokesperson for Governor George Bush wrote "He believes the Boy Scouts is a private organization and they should be able to set their own standards." He added that the New Jersey Supreme Court erred when it struck down the Scouts' ban on homosexuals serving as scoutmasters. A spokesperson for Elizabeth Dole's campaign said that she "supports the right of private organizations to set their own membership rules."
bullet 1999-OCT-10 - United Methodist Church troop sponsorship (continued): The United Methodist board of Church and Society approved a statement on homosexuals within the Boy Scouts by a two-thirds vote. The statement said, in part: "While the General Board of Church and Society would like to enthusiastically affirm and encourage this continuing partnership of the church and scouting, we cannot due to the Boy Scouts of America's discrimination against gays...The United Methodist Church ... strongly condemns discrimination based on sexual orientation." The Boy Scouts' policy "conflicts with our [church's] Social Principles." According to the Washington Times, the board will support the Lambda Legal Defense Fund during the appeal of the New Jersey decision to the U.S. Supreme Court. The LLDF is a homosexual support group seeking equal rights under law for gays and lesbians. Any decision to disengage the UMC from the BSA would have to be made at the UMC General Conference.
bullet 1999-OCT - New Jersey court case (cont'd): The BSA filed an appeal of the New Jersey Supreme Court decision with the U.S. Supreme Court. Spokesperson Attorney Steve Crampton, of the American Family Association's Law Center, was pleased with the appeal. He commented: "As we understood it, there was some discussion and debate internally as to whether they would pursue the case on appeal."
bullet 1999-OCT - New Jersey court case (cont'd): The Family Research Council discussed the New Jersey decision in its October issue of Washington Watch. Author and Senior Director of Cultural Studies, Robert H. Knight, raised some interesting points:
bullet Knight described an incident in his childhood when he was a Scout. Another Scout in his troop tried to sexually molest a fellow scout. The perpetrator was expelled by the Scoutmaster. Knight wrote that: "Under an August 5 unanimous New Jersey Supreme Court ruling...my scoutmaster would be in hot water." [Author's note: This appears to be a non sequitur. The court ruling dealt with BSA membership entry rules. It did not touch in any way on the conditions under which a Scout could be expelled.]
bullet Justice Allan B. Handler's mentioned in his ruling that a homosexual "is no more or less likely to be moral that a person who is heterosexual." Knight commented "This means that homosexual behavior must be inherently moral..." [Author's note: This also appears to be a non sequitur. The judge's seems to imply that some heterosexuals engage in moral acts, that some homosexuals do as well, and that the rate of moral acts is the same for gays and straights. Knight's interpretation of the ruling seems to imply that all homosexual behavior is inherently moral. It is not. Homosexuals can engage in coercive, manipulative, non-consensual and unsafe sex, just as heterosexuals can.]
bullet Knight commented that "In declaring the BSA to be a 'public accommodation,' Chief Justice] Poritz and her colleagues couldn't find any distinction between a Scout troop and, say, a bus station." [Author's note: This appears to be a misrepresentation of the facts. Some youth groups are private clubs; others are public accommodations. The court decided that the BSA was one of the latter. But anyone can see that the BSA does not resemble a bus station. Just about the only thing that they share in common is that they are both public accommodations.]
bullet Knight concluded by saying that "Judaism, Christianity and Islam all teach that homosexuality is wrong. If the judges are right...then religious people should expect their congregations to come under severe legal attack." He is apparently implying that if a minister teaches that homosexual behavior is immoral that they can expect to be sued by the state on civil rights charges. [Author's note: Again, this does not make sense. Ministers' free speech is protected under the 1st Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. In the past, some ministers have promoted slavery, opposed racial integration, opposed inter-racial marriage, promoted the unequal treatment of women, etc. without having been charged by the state. They will certainly be able to safely to include homophobia in their sermons if they wish.]


The Supreme Court decision:

The U.S. Supreme Court, in a close 5 - 4 decision, overturned an earlier New Jersey Supreme Court ruling that had found that the Boy Scouts were a public accommodation. The U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the BSA is a private organization and thus may set its own moral code. Forcing it to accept gays would violate its constitutional right to freedom of association.

Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist wrote for the majority. He said in part: "The Boy Scouts asserts that homosexual conduct is inconsistent with the values it seeks to instill. [Requiring the Scouts to accept homosexual scoutmasters] would significantly burden the organization's right to oppose or disfavor homosexual conduct." He did acknowledge that homosexuality had gained greater social acceptance. However, he wrote that "This is scarcely an argument for denying First Amendment protection to those who refuse to accept these views. The First Amendment protects expression, be it of the popular variety or not."

Thus the BSA can now legally discriminate on the basis of gender, age, sexual orientation, religious belief or any other basis. They do not have to follow local, state or federal anti-discrimination laws. One interesting implication of the court ruling is that the BSA will now have much more difficulty when they try to gain access to schools or government facilities, or when they try to tap into government resources. In the past, they had held scout jamborees on army bases; this may not be possible in the future.

The court decision only applies to gay scout leaders, "...and does not directly confront the question of whether the Scouts may ban gays from general membership..." 1

Conservative religious groups applauded the decision; civil rights groups were appalled. Two immediate reactions to the court decision were:
--Jan LaRue, spokesperson for the Family Research Council, wrote: "It is not the role of government to decide who should share a pup tent with the Scouts, who is fit to be a Scoutmaster, and what message the Scouts should deliver about homosexuality."
--Ralph G. Neas, spokesperson for People For the American Way Foundation wrote: "The court’s decision permits the Boy Scouts to hide their discrimination behind the First Amendment and rejects the right of New Jersey to create a just society for its citizens. The Court has allowed freedom of association to become a tool by which groups unfairly exclude a group of Americans."

[irishgrl]

Ive just found two alternatives:

Camp Fire USA (open to EVERYONE)

and possibly Spiral Scouts (a Wiccan Scout program, also open to EVERYONE)

I feel better now.

[Neb-Maat-Re]

Ive just found two alternatives:

Camp Fire USA (open to EVERYONE)

and possibly Spiral Scouts (a Wiccan Scout program, also open to EVERYONE)

I feel better now.


Most official Scouting organisations world wide include an oath to God:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scout_Promise

Ironically, one that doesn't is Israel.

There are other exceptions, such as Hong Kong which allows the word "faith" instead of God - that'd cover Wiccans.

Bizarrely, in Australia we dropped the Queen (from the oath, that is) but not God.

[strandinthewind]

I do not agree with the Boy Scouts' position and think it is assinine. But, they are a private organization and, therefore, can do what they want. And, though I disagree with them and will never give them any money (though I was one mind you) - I support their right to act as they want as a private group. For me not to support that right means to me that I lose the right to bitch about the govt. interfering in my private life.

Interestingly, I actually worked on this case (the private acts aspect) when this was a big topic.

[xxxmx]

i went to a private christian elementary school. it was just the best school in the district. i clearly remember that my mom talked with me about making decisions and that i was old enough to make some and stand up for myself. we had bible study every day and chapel every week. the bible study wasn't so bad. i still remember the books in order and the song that goes with them...

then there was chapel. i sang along sometimes. i never prayed. that was my silent decision. everyone knew we were atheists. we never went to any of the services and we were the people that never said the pledge of allegiance or mumbled along with the prayers. it was awkward.

even now i stand politely with hand to chest every morning when the kids say the pledge. one of the kids called me on it. i told her that i show my respect silently and that i thought it was not disrespectful. and that was that. why is it so hard to be an atheist?

[GODDESS6]

Ive just found two alternatives:

Camp Fire USA (open to EVERYONE)

and possibly Spiral Scouts (a Wiccan Scout program, also open to EVERYONE)

I feel better now.

i was a "camp fire girl" when i was young, i joined after being in 1 yr of the "girl scouts", "girl scouts" are the same way as "cub/boy scouts", it was awful how they tried to cram their beliefs down your throat~ the next yr i joined "camp fire girls" & so enjoyed it for many yrs~ i always thought they were a great organization~

[irishgrl]

I just want to clarify that I have no problem with believing in God/Goddess, and I went to Sunday School myself as a child and I wasnt ruined from it. I dont think it would necessarily ruin Brendan to go to Sunday School either. The problem for me is, I absolutely deplore organized religion anymore, and I object strongly to the notion that a person must attend some sort of church service or be denied membership in the Scouts. Then there is the problem of actually having to pick a Church that we could go to regularly....I frankly object IN PRINCIPLE to the requirement.

Jason, the Boy Scouts didnt used to style themselves a "private organization". When my brother went, they were considered "public access". See the post above from ReligiousTolerance.org that compares/contrasts the two positions. But there is no doubt now that they are operating as a private "club" and as such, can make their own rules (I posted quite a bit of material on this, I hope some of you read it!!!)

I know I went a bit crazy with all the info I posted but I like to research a thing pretty thoroughly and well, I was just incensed. :sorry:

[irishgrl]

Most official Scouting organisations world wide include an oath to God:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scout_Promise

Ironically, one that doesn't is Israel.

There are other exceptions, such as Hong Kong which allows the word "faith" instead of God - that'd cover Wiccans.

Bizarrely, in Australia we dropped the Queen (from the oath, that is) but not God.

Camp Fire USA does NOT.

[strandinthewind]

I did not see anything in the RT blurb about the BS ever maintaining they were anything but a private organization. Yes, they have taken public funds, used public things, etc. - but that is a tricky test. On the one hand, the BS do a great deal of public service. So, not to let them on public property or not to give them a ride would seem silly. But, if they take too much, then they are considered to fall under the public works.

[irishgrl]

I did not see anything in the RT blurb about the BS ever maintaining they were anything but a private organization. Yes, they have taken public funds, used public things, etc. - but that is a tricky test. On the one hand, the BS do a great deal of public service. So, not to let them on public property or not to give them a ride would seem silly. But, if they take too much, then they are considered to fall under the public works.

here is the specific part:
Is it a "place of public accommodation" which attempts to make scouting available to every boy who wants it. In favor of this argument:

--The BSA is the largest youth movement in the world. Between 1992 and 1996, the BSA total assets in the U.S. increased from 277 million to 441 million dollars.
--BSA's federal charter obligates them to serve all boys.
--Other than discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation and religious belief, BSA has no barriers to membership. It aggressively recruit new members.
--Many troops are sponsored by government agencies (e.g. public schools, military base, fire department) and thus cannot discriminate on the basis of religion.
--Federal laws have been passed to allow the military to provide transportation for Scouts and to loan them equipment without charge. Every national Boy Scout jamboree since 1981 has been held on a military base.
--All recent presidents of the U.S. have been honorary presidents of the BSA.
--Many local councils receive substantial funding from the United Way. Such United Ways have a national and local policy of not ordinarily funding any charitable organization which discriminates on a basis of religion or sexual orientation. Some United Ways have stopped funding the Boy Scouts. However, many still continue such funding.
--BSA operates and licenses retail stores to sell Scouting materials and literature to both BSA members and the general public.
--Groups that are much smaller and private than the Boy Scouts have been recognized as public accommodations. One example is Big Brothers of the National Capital Area.

As for the Scouts being on public property, no one is saying they cant merely that they not be given a preference over other groups based on their God-centered tenets. Unfortunately, High Schools cannot sponsor them because they discriminate, and Many United Way organizations wont fund them any longer for the same reason.

[skcin]

The Boy Scouts just built their local headquarters literally around the block from my house. Want me to go & egg it for you? :shrug:


:D

[SuzeQuze]

The Boy Scouts just built their local headquarters literally around the block from my house. Want me to go & egg it for you? :shrug:


:D

Sounds good, moon them too. Oh hell, flash them!

[JazmenFlowers]

all I have to say is I was a boy scout for, oh, about 2 weeks. we went on a camping trip and that's pretty much where my tenure ended. :lol:

[skcin]

all I have to say is I was a boy scout for, oh, about 2 weeks. we went on a camping trip and that's pretty much where my tenure ended. :lol:

Even back then, huh? :laugh:

[strandinthewind]

all I have to say is I was a boy scout for, oh, about 2 weeks. we went on a camping trip and that's pretty much where my tenure ended. :lol:

One of the guys in the grade ahead of me tried to have sex with me in our tent. I insisted on a dinner not consisting of pork and beans before I would give up the goods :laugh: Seriously, he really did drawl on over and proceed to go for the gold. I politely declined and we never talked about it again. There were many more like him in my troop and all are married with kids today. Go figure!

[bikerchic]

This is not even an issue in Canada. Both my kids have been in Scouts and Girl Guides for years and the word religion has never been mentioned. Of course there is the Guide promise "To be true to myself, my God/faith* and Canada;", which they all say each week in the closing, but that's it. I think there is a "Religion in Life" badge that the Boy Scouts can obtain, only if they wish to do so. It's all about the camping and helping others up here.

[irishgrl]

You're lucky...you dont have the Fundies taking over :mad:

I really wanted my son to get the basics of woodscraft and social skills, and I think the Scouts do an excellent job of that. If it werent for the emphasis on the other, I would go ahead and sign him up.

The nice thing is, I spoke with my son's dad (and if you know anything about our history you know that I dont do that willingly) and he surprised me by supporting my decision! :shocked:

[SuzeQuze]

You're lucky...you dont have the Fundies taking over :mad:

I really wanted my son to get the basics of woodscraft and social skills, and I think the Scouts do an excellent job of that. If it werent for the emphasis on the other, I would go ahead and sign him up.

The nice thing is, I spoke with my son's dad (and if you know anything about our history you know that I dont do that willingly) and he surprised me by supporting my decision! :shocked:

He agreed? Wow!

What about one of those other organizations you mentioned? They could be just as good. Or, he could fake the religion part. But I understand not wanting to do that. It's just pretty much what I did as a kid. We went to church sometimes but I was agnostic.

Now I am more spiritual but I had to come upon that myself since I had no guidance from my parents, in that regard and many others unfortunately. In hindsight though, I am glad I didn't do girlscouts if that was in it because I did feel incomfortable with the word "God" as a kid, very uncomfortable. Not so much anymore though. It definitely should be worded as "God of your understanding" or something like that. Friggin' fundies. :rolleyes:

I love Canada, ey!

[strandinthewind]

You're lucky...you dont have the Fundies taking over :mad: . . . .

I think the fundies have nothing to do with it because the BSA has always been religious :shrug:

Also - I had to chuckle when I read that the GSA had no such prohibition against homosexuals - hmmmm - girls camping, wonder why :eek: :laugh:

[carrie721]

Also - I had to chuckle when I read that the GSA had no such prohibition against homosexuals - hmmmm - girls camping, wonder why :eek: :laugh:

:lol: too funny. :lol:

[strandinthewind]

:lol: too funny. :lol:

Woodcrafting, forestry, canoeing . . . . HMMMMMMMMMMMM

[irishgrl]

I think the fundies have nothing to do with it because the BSA has always been religious :shrug:

Also - I had to chuckle when I read that the GSA had no such prohibition against homosexuals - hmmmm - girls camping, wonder why :eek: :laugh:

Au Contraire mon ami, the BSA was NOT always "religious", at least not in the sense that they are now (by that I mean, you didnt used to be REQUIRED to attend a Church, nor would you be denied membership for being agnostic)
The Scout Oath DID have the "G" word in it, and again, I dont have a problem with God. or Believing in God. My issue with Scouting is that they will deny a person membership for not having a regular religious component to their life.

The Girl Scout Oath will allow the girls to substitute "Goddess" or "Higher Power" (or the like) for "God" which I think is pretty enlightened of them! :lol:

[bikerchic]

Also - I had to chuckle when I read that the GSA had no such prohibition against homosexuals - hmmmm - girls camping, wonder why :eek: :laugh:

:laugh:

Well, they don't call them the Boy "scouts" and the Girl "guides" for nothing you know ;)

[strandinthewind]

Au Contraire mon ami, the BSA was NOT always "religious", at least not in the sense that they are now (by that I mean, you didnt used to be REQUIRED to attend a Church, nor would you be denied membership for being agnostic)
The Scout Oath DID have the "G" word in it, and again, I dont have a problem with God. or Believing in God. My issue with Scouting is that they will deny a person membership for not having a regular religious component to their life.

The Girl Scout Oath will allow the girls to substitute "Goddess" or "Higher Power" (or the like) for "God" which I think is pretty enlightened of them! :lol:

I think you always had to believe in God to be a BS. I read nothing to the contrary :shrug:

If you are talking about them being sued for it, well that probably did not happen until sometime in the last 30 years, but the religious aspect was always there :shrug:

[DestinyRules]

The Boy Scouts also discriminate against gays. They're definitely on my s--- list.

[Neb-Maat-Re]

Camp Fire USA does NOT.

And they are not an official Scouting organisation.

[Neb-Maat-Re]

Here in Aus you don't even need to be a boy to join the Scouts. They're unisex.

There are still Girl Guides, but I think they're struggling in relation to Scouts.

[irishgrl]

And they are not an official Scouting organisation.

maybe thats their saving grace :nod:

[irishgrl]

I think you always had to believe in God to be a BS. I read nothing to the contrary :shrug:

If you are talking about them being sued for it, well that probably did not happen until sometime in the last 30 years, but the religious aspect was always there :shrug:


Im aware the OATH has the "G" word in it as I said, but I dont think saying the word is the same thing as expecting a person to BELIEVE. A lot of people say the pledge of Allegiance that arent Christian and dont necessarily believe in our God :shrug:

No, what I am referring to is a relatively new phenomenon (within the last couple of decades) that has progressively emphasized a REQUIREMENT to go to church and have a regular religious component to your life. And if you went to the BSA site, you could see for yourself that the further along in rank you went, the more church-related activity you were expected to participate in. I think it begins with the Wolf Cubs but I'd have to look again...And now, you are asked if you believe in God and if by chance you dont, you are denied admittance. That didnt used to be the case, either with my Brother or my son's father. (like I said, Im still surprised he agreed with me :shocked: ) By the way, my brother was in scouting in the late 50's, and my son's father was in scouting in the late 60's early 70's, and no such emphasis was present at that time.

[irishgrl]

The following info was taken from the case James Dale v. Boy Scouts of America (1999)
here is the BSA mission statement and the language of the Federal Charter:

According to BSA's federal charter, BSA seeks "to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in Scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues." BSA's Mission Statement also describes BSA's purpose: "It is the mission of the Boy Scouts of America to serve others by helping to instill values in young people and, in other ways, to prepare them to make ethical choices over their lifetime in achieving their full potential.

In no way do I see a religious component described there. I DO see a committment to building character, instilling a sense of decency and ethics. You can be an Agnostic or an Athiest (or a Samaritan!!) and still exhibit those characteristics.

I will get down to the nitty gritty here: If the BSA bylaws require "respect [For the convictions of others in matters of custom and religion." and states in a training manual entitled Scoutmaster Fundamentals prepared "for Scoutmasters, Assistant Scoutmasters, Troop Committee members, and parents," BSA categorically states: "Religious instruction is the responsibility of the home and church."
how then can they reject ANY religion? (such as Wiccan?) Again and again I read that the Scouting organization urges respect for other people's beliefs, yet I read that Wiccans and Universal Unitarians (among others) have been denied acceptance.

Jason, this next bit is for you--it explains how the court in this case came to determine that the Boy Scouts was a PUBLIC accomodation organization:
b. Public Accommodation

Our case law identifies various factors that are helpful in determining whether Boy Scouts is a "public accommodation." We ask, generally, whether the entity before us engages in broad public solicitation, whether it maintains close relationships with the government or other public accommodations, or whether it is similar to enumerated or other previously recognized public accommodations.

Broad public solicitation has consistently been a principal characteristic of public accommodations. Our courts have repeatedly held that when an entity invites the public to join, attend, or participate in some way, that entity is a public accommodation within the meaning of the LAD. See, e.g., Clover Hill Swimming Club, Inc. v. Goldsboro, 47 N.J. 25, 33, 219 A.2d 161 (1966) (stating that "an establishment which by advertising or otherwise extends an invitation to the public generally is a place of public accommodation"); Sellers v. Philip's Barber Shop, 46 N.J. 340, 345, 217 A.2d 121 (1966) (stating that "an establishment which caters to the public or by advertising or other forms of invitation induces patronage generally is a place of public accommodation"); Fraser, supra, 44 N.J. at 488, 210 A.2d 208 (stating that "in light of the nature of the facilities and activities offered to the general public by respondent's day camp, we hold that it is a public accommodation"); Little League, supra, 127 N.J.Super. at 531, 318 A.2d 33 (stating that "Little League is a public accommodation because the invitation is open to children in the community at large"); Evans v. Ross, 57 N.J.Super. 223, 231, 154 A.2d 441 (App.Div.) (stating that LAD requires "an establishment which caters to the public, and by advertising or other forms of invitation induces patronage generally, not to refuse to deal with members of the public who have accepted the invitation"), certif. denied, 31 N.J. 292, 157 A.2d 362 (1959); see also Kiwanis Int'l v. Ridgewood Kiwanis Club, 806 F.2d 468, 475 (3d Cir.1986) (stating that LAD applies whenever "the organization or club ... invites an unrestricted and unselected public to join as members"); Brounstein v. American Cat Fanciers Ass'n, 839 F.Supp. 1100, 1107 (D.N.J.1993) (stating that " 'primary public accommodation consideration' " under LAD is " 'whether the invitation to gather is open to the public at large' ") (quoting Kiwanis Int'l, supra, 806 F.2d at 474).

BSA engages in broad public solicitation through various media. In 1989, for example, BSA spent more than $1 million on a national television advertising campaign. A New York Times article describes one of Boy Scouts' "hip" television ads, quoting a BSA spokesman as stating, "scouting is a product and we've got to get the product into the hands of as many consumers as we can." [FN6] Kim Foltz, TV Ad's Hip Pitch: It's 'Cool' to be a Boy Scout, N.Y. Times, Oct. 30, 1989. BSA has also advertised in widely distributed magazines, such as Sports Afield and Redbook. Local Boy Scout councils engage in substantial public solicitation. BSA frequently supplies the councils with recruiting materials, such as television and radio public service announcements, advertisements, and other promotional products. Monmouth Council, in particular, has expressly invited the public by conducting recruiting drives and by providing local troops with BSA-produced posters and promotions aimed at attracting new members.

FN6. Boy Scouts expresses concern that this article is not properly part of the record before us. Although the quoted statement has not been authenticated, we find it descriptive of material in the record respecting BSA's public solicitation and membership recruitment efforts.

Boy Scout troops also take part in perhaps the most powerful invitation of all, albeit an implied one: the symbolic invitation extended by a Boy Scout each time he wears his uniform in public. See Sellers, supra, 46 N.J. at 345, 217 A.2d 121 (finding that barber shop's pole extended implied invitation to public). A boy in a uniform may well be Boy Scouts' strongest recruiting tool. By encouraging scouts to wear their uniforms to school (WHAT?? :eek: ), and when participating in "School Nights" and public demonstrations, Boy Scouts invites the curiosity and awareness of others in the community. Boy Scouts admits that it encourages these displays in the hope of attracting new members.

On the facts before us, it cannot be controverted that Boy Scouts reaches out to the public in a myriad of ways designed to increase and sustain a broad membership base. Whether by advertising or active recruitment, or through the symbolism of a Boy Scout uniform, the intent is to send the invitation to as many members of the general public as possible. Once Boy Scouts has extended this invitation, the LAD requires that all members of the public must "have equal rights ... and not be subjected to the embarrassment and humiliation of being invited, ... only to find the doors barred to them." Evans, supra, 57 N.J.Super. at 231, 154 A.2d 441.

Boy Scouts is a "public accommodation," not simply because of its solicitation activities, but also because it maintains close relationships with federal and state governmental bodies and with other recognized public accommodations. Our cases have held that certain organizations that benefit from relationships with the government and other public accommodations are themselves places of public accommodation within the meaning of the LAD. In Little League, for example, the court concluded that Little League was "public in the added sense that local governmental bodies characteristically make the playing areas available to the local leagues, ordinarily without charge." 127 N.J.Super. at 531, 318 A.2d 33, aff'd, 67 N.J. 320, 338 A.2d 198 (1974). More recently, in Frank v. Ivy Club, 120 N.J. 73, 79, 110, 576 A.2d 241 (1990), a female student sought membership in the all-male eating clubs at Princeton University. Although they did not publicly solicit new members, we held that the clubs' close relationship to the University, a place of public accommodation, rendered them subject to the LAD. Id. at 110, 576 A.2d 241.

It is clear that Boy Scouts benefits from a close relationship with the federal government. Indeed, BSA was chartered by Congress in 1916, 36 U.S.C.A. § 30901, and has been the recipient of equipment, supplies, and services from the federal government, also by act of Congress, 10 U.S.C.A. § 2544. Thus, the Secretary of Defense, 10 U.S.C.A. § 2544(a), and other departments of the federal government, 10 U.S.C.A. § 2544(h), have been authorized to

lend to the Boy Scouts of America, for the use and accommodation of Scouts, Scouters, and officials who attend any national or world Boy Scout Jamboree, such cots, blankets, commissary equipment, flags, refrigerators, and other equipment and without reimbursement, furnish services and expendable medical supplies, as may be necessary or useful to the extent that items are in stock and items or services are available. 10 U.S.C.A. § 2544(a).

Since its inception, BSA has maintained a special association with each successive President of the United States. According to a BSA public relations fact sheet:

One of the causes contributing to the success of the Boy Scouts of America has been the thoughtful, wholehearted way in which each President of the United States since William Howard Taft in 1910 has taken an active part in the work of the movement. Each served as Honorary President during his term in office.

Another fact sheet states that seventy-eight percent of the members of the 100th Congress participated in scouting.

Boy Scouts also maintains a close relationship with the military. According to a BSA pamphlet entitled Organizations That Use Scouting, "military personnel serve Scouting in many capacities." "At many Army, Navy, Air Force, and National Coast Guard installations, facilities are available for Scouting shows, meetings, training activities," and other "similar Scouting events." Monmouth Council, in particular, has used the New Jersey military installation known as Fort Monmouth.

Likewise, state and local governments have contributed to Boy Scouts' success. [FN7] In New Jersey, the Legislature has authorized the Division of Fish, Game and Wildlife in the Department of Environmental Protection to "stock with fish any body of water in this state that is under the control of and for the use of ... Boy Scouts," N.J.S.A. 23:2-3, and has exempted Boy Scouts from having to pay motor vehicle registration fees, N.J.S.A. 39:3-27. Local governmental agencies, such as fire departments and law enforcement agencies, serve Boy Scouts by sponsoring scouting units. Nationally, over 50,000 youth members belong to units sponsored by fire departments, whereas in New Jersey alone over 130 units are sponsored by fire departments and over 100 units are sponsored by law enforcement agencies.

FN7. New Jersey governmental entities are, of course, bound by the LAD. Their sponsorship of, or conferring of special benefits on, an organization that practices discrimination would be prohibited.

Perhaps Boy Scouts' connection to public schools and school-affiliated groups constitutes its single most beneficial governmental relationship. Organizations That Use Scouting advises that "the education field holds our greatest potential." Boy Scouts currently recruits many of its members through its presence in and use of school facilities. A large percentage of scouting units nationally, as well as in New Jersey, are chartered by public schools and affiliated organizations. (BTW: I believe the ACLU put a stop to this because of the recent Supreme Court case which allowed religious and sexual orientation discrimination

Given Boy Scouts' public solicitation activities, and considering its close relationship with governmental entities, it is not surprising that Boy Scouts resembles many of the recognized and enumerated places of public accommodation. Similarity to the places of public accommodation listed in the LAD has been a benchmark for determining whether the unlisted entity should be included. Cf. Board of Chosen Freeholders v. New Jersey, 159 N.J. 565, 576, 732 A.2d 1053 (1999) (stating that "under the ejusdem generis principle of statutory construction, when specific words follow more general words in a statutory enumeration, we can consider what additional items might also be included by asking whether those items are similar to those enumerated"). In Fraser v. Robin Dee Day Camp, for example, this Court held that a "day camp is the type of accommodation which the Legislature intended to reach" because a "day camp offers accommodations which have many attributes in common with swimming pools, recreation and amusement parks, motion picture houses, theatres, music halls, gymnasiums, kindergarten and primary schools, all of which are specifically enumerated" in the LAD. 44 N.J. at 487, 210 A.2d 208. The Appellate Division in Little League identified Little League's " 'educational or recreational nature' " as a basis for the court's conclusion that Little League was similar to the types of public accommodations listed in the statute. 127 N.J.Super. at 531, 318 A.2d 33 (quoting Fraser, supra, 44 N.J. at 487, 210 A.2d 208). Similarly, Boy Scouts' educational and recreational nature, like the day camp in Fraser or the baseball teams in Little League, further supports our conclusion that Boy Scouts is a "place of public accommodation" under the LAD. See, e.g., Advancement Guidelines 4 (1992 ed.) (stating that "education and fun are functions of the scouting movement").

ps: here's the cite:
Boy Scouts of America v. Dale

734 A.2d 1196, 160 N.J. 562 (1999)
cert. granted
--S.Ct. -- 2000 WL 21144 (2000)

by the way here's the brief summary of the decision:
V. CONCLUSION

Today, we hold that Boy Scouts is a "place of public accommodation" and is, therefore, subject to the provisions of the LAD. As a "place of public accommodation" it cannot deny any person "accommodations, advantages, facilities, and privileges ... because of ... sexual orientation." N.J.S.A. 10:5-4. For the reasons set forth in this opinion, application of the LAD does not infringe on Boy Scouts' First Amendment rights.

The judgment of the Appellate Division is affirmed. We remand to the Chancery Division for further proceedings consistent with this opinion.

************************
so much for common sense. In 2000, the Supreme Court (peopled with a majority of conservatives) ruled that
Boy Scouts, and all private organizations, have the constitutionally protected right under the First Amendment of freedom of association to set membership standards. Furthermore, the Court ruled that:

* An association is entitled to protection if it "merely engage[s] in expressive activity that could be impaired."
* The presence of someone who may interfere is enough to impair First Amendment rights.
* Courts must defer to an association's expression
* State anti-discrimination laws may not interfere with expressive rights.

source: BSA legal issues section

Of course many fundamentalists are hopping with glee because this victory gave them the ability to start molding young minds a la Hitler's Youth example...

[irishgrl]

Whoa, this page is a GOLD MINE:
Scout's Honor (http://www.scouts-honor.com/community.html)


SCOUTS HONOR
Provided by the Lambda Legal Education and Defense Fund
Dissociating from Discrimination:
Public entities, organizations, and corporations choosing to teach respect for all kids

Ever since James Dale first challenged the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) for his expulsion, Americans have expressed their outrage at BSA's prejudiced policy. In the time since the U.S. Supreme Court narrowly ruled that the Scouts have a right to discriminate, the public reaction has only grown stronger. Scores of religious organizations, corporations, schools and others have stopped sponsoring, funding, and giving special treatment to BSA; many more have publicly called on BSA to end its discriminatory practices. The following is a list of some of those who have stood up and opposed the Scouts' policy, both before and since the Supreme Court decision.

Public Schools

* New York
* Chicago
* Santa Barbara
* Oakland
* San Diego
* San Francisco
* Minneapolis
* Tucson: Sunnyside Schools
* Sacramento: Davis Joint Unified Schools
* San Jose: Alum Rock Union Schools
* Ft. Lauderdale: Broward County Schools
* Oak Park, IL: Beye Elementary School
* Framingham, MA
* Taunton, MA: Edmund Hatch Bennett Elementary School (1 school)
* Burnsville, MN: Burnsville-Eagan-Savage Schools
* Chapel Hill, NC: Chapel Hill-Carrboro Schools
* Keene, NH
* East Hampton, NY
* Kimball Elementary School, Seattle, WA
* Barre Town, VT
* Jamestown, NY: Jamestown Community College

Public Entities

* Chicago
* Ft.Lauderdale
* Miami Beach
* Tucson
* San Diego, CA police department
* Santa Clara, CA sheriff's department
* West Palm Beach police department
* Wilton Manors, FL
* Los Angeles: City and police department are reviewing their ties to BSA
* Santa Barbara county: No longer gives preferential treatment to Scouts in the use of city facilities
* Princeton, NJ borough council: Denied local troop use of borough-owned space for a fundraising event

Corporate and Charitable Foundations

* Connecticut State Employee Campaign Committee
* CVS Corp.
* J. P. Morgan & Co., Inc.
* Klehr, Harrison, Harvey, Branzburg & Ellers
* Knight-Ridder, Inc.
* Levi Strauss & Co.
* Medtronic, Inc.
* The Philadelphia Foundation
* Portland General Electric
* The Providence Journal Co.
* Textron, Inc.
* Wells Fargo & Co.: Cut funding to BSA in 1992, although it altered policy in 1998 after a merger to allow individual bank presidents to make decisions regarding BSA contributions
* Novell, Inc.: No longer does dollar-for-dollar matching of employee donations to BSA; now only matches employees' donations to United Way

Religious Groups

* National: The Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism issued a statement calling on Jewish families and synagogues to sever ties with BSA, calling the Scout policy incompatible with the organization's beliefs.
* National: Board of Church and Society of the United Methodist Church stated that BSA's policy of denying membership based entirely on sexual orientation conflicts with the social principles of the denomination.
* National: The Episcopal General Convention passed a resolution encouraging BSA to allow adult leaders to serve regardless of their sexual orientation.
* National: Unitarian Universalist Association after the decision release: "We call upon the Boy Scouts of America to end their discrimination against gays...."
* Chapel Hill, NC: Olin T. Binkley Memorial Baptist Church ended its 39-year sponsorship of two BSA groups in protest of the BSAâs policy * Oak Park, IL: Cornerstone Church had its application to charter a Boy Scout troop rejected because the church stated that it refuses to comply with the BSAâs anti-gay policy
* Palm Beach, FL: Two Jewish Community Centers - the Kaplan JCC and the Adolph and Rose Levis JCC - ended sponsorship of BSA troops in protest of the anti-gay policy.
* Denver, CO: Temple Emanuel has informed BSA that troops may no longer meet in its synagogue, and the Temple's Rabbi Steven Foster returned his Boy Scout badges
* Denver, CO: Washington Park United Church of Christ ended its 60-year association with BSA with a "seperation ceremony" due to the anti-gay policy.
* Madison, WI: Orchard Ridge United Church of Christ ended its sponsorship of a troop because of the BSA's policy.
* East Brunswick, NJ: Temple B'nai Shalom ended its affiliation with two Boy Scout groups in protest of the BSA's policy.
* Coral Gables, FL: Temple Judea voted to sever ties with its 49-year-old Boy Scout troop because of the BSA's policy
* Taunton, MA: Union Congregational Church, a United Church of Christ congregation, announced that it will no longer sponsor a Scout troop or give them meeting space in protest of the BSA's policy.
* Golden Valley, MN: Breck School, an Episcopal institution in, said it would no longer sponsor a Cub Scout pack that includes its students, because "the Boy Scouts' policy of exclusion is in direct conflict with Breck's fundamental values of diversity and inclusion."
* Ocean Township, NJ: St. Anselm's Roman Catholic Church has drawn up a policy requiring groups that use its facilities must include everyone, regardless of sexual orientation or other distinctions.
* Norman, OK: St. Andrews United Methodist Church discontinued its charter relationship with Cub Scout Pack 70 in August.
* Squirrel Hill, NJ: St. Edmund's Academy, a nondenominational school with Episcopal roots, announced in January 2001 that it would no longer sponsor a Cub Scout pack unless the BSA changes its anti-gay policy.

United Way Chapters

* Valley of the Sun, AZ (Tempe)
* San Francisco, CA
* Santa Clara, CA
* Santa Cruz, CA
* Silicon Valley, CA (San Jose/Silicon Valley)
* Northern Fairfield County, CT (Danbury)
* Norwalk & Wilton, CT
* Westport-Weston, CT
* Orange, Osceola, and Seminole Counties, FL
* Evanston, IL
* Monroe County, IN (Bloomington)
* Massachusetts Bay, MA
* Fox Cities, WI
* Northern Berkshire, MA (five cities in northern Massachusetts and one in Vermont)
* Hampshire County, MA
* Portland, ME
* Allegan County, MI
* Greater Duluth, MN
* Monadnock, NH (Southwestern New Hampshire)
* Essex/West Hudson, NJ
* Somerset County, NJ
* Santa Fe, NM
* Tucson and Southern Arizona
* Palm Beach, FL
* Snohomish County, WA (Everett)
* Whatcom County, WA (Bellingham)
* Greater Winona, MN
* Jackson County, OR (Medford): Is cutting funding to BSA 15% every year until the discriminatory policy ends
* Westchester and Putnam Counties, NY: Restricting funding to the BSA's Learning for Life program
* Southeastern PA (Philadelphia): Restricting funding to the BSA's Learning for Life program
* New Haven, CT: Gives money to BSA if donors request it, but no longer gives unrestricted funds
* Heart of Florida (Orlando): No longer gives money automatically to BSA; donors must specifically request it
* Broward County, FL: No longer gives money automatically to BSA; donors must specifically request it
* Faribault, MN: Allows donors to exclude organizations like BSA from receiving their money
* Minneapolis/St. Paul, MN: Allows donors to exclude organizations like BSA from receiving their money
* California Capitol Region, CA (Sacramento): Requires all organizations being funded to adhere to a nondiscrimination policy
* Moscow-Latah County, WA: Requires all organizations being funded to adhere to a nondiscrimination policy
* Merrimack County, NH: Requires all organizations being funded to adhere to a nondiscrimination policy
* Seacoast, NH: Requires all organizations being funded to adhere to a nondiscrimination policy
* Southeastern New England (RI, parts of MA & CT): Requires all organizations being funded to adhere to a nondiscrimination policy * Bay County, MI (Bay City): Requires all organizations being funded to adhere to a nondiscrimination policy
* Southeastern New England (RI, parts of MA & CT): Requires all organizations being funded to adhere to a nondiscrimination policy
* King County, WA (Seattle and surrounding area): Restricting funding to the BSA's Learning for Life program
* Pierce County, WA (Tacoma): Has given BSA until June 2003 to come up with a plan to adhere to its nondiscrimination policy

Individual BSA Groups Opposing Anti-Gay Policy

* Leaders of the BSA councils of New York City; Los Angeles; Chicago; West Los Angeles; Orange County, California; San Francisco; Philadelphia; Minneapolis; and Boston: At the Scouts' national meeting, these leaders proposed that the Scouts allow churches, schools, and other chartering organizations to decide for themselves whether to have gay scout members and leaders.
* Greater New York Councils of the Boy Scouts of America: In a hearing of the New York City Council, council officials testified, "We firmly believe that anyone of any sexual orientation can live up to [Boy Scout] standards," vowing to try to convince the BSAâs national offices to change its policy.
* Oak Park, IL: Seven Cub Scout packs were expelled from Scouting in January after they informed BSA that they could not comply with the anti-gay policy because it conflicted with city ordinances and school policies that ban discrimination based on sexual orientation.
* Piedmont, CA, Piedmont Council: Has informed BSA that it intends to defy the BSA's policy
* Madison, WI, Cub Scout Pack 302: Has informed BSA of its opposition to the anti-gay policy; has been warned that its charter may be revoked
*Four Lakes Council (Wisconsin): Adopted resolution asking the national organization to change its anti-gay membership policy
* Richmond, CA, Sea Explorers: Has its own non-discrimination policy, in defiance of the BSA's stance
* San Jose, CA, Troop 260: Has its own non-discrimination policy, in defiance of the BSA's stance
* Westwood, CA Cub Scout Pack 34: Has vowed to defy the policy and is considering forming a new group separate from BSA
* Boston, MA, Minutemen Council: Has its own non-discrimination policy, in defiance of the BSA's stance
* Ann Arbor, MI, Cub Scout Pack 33: Adoped its own non-discrimination policy; when told by local BSA council they couldnât do that, the pack dis-affiliated and became a Camp Fire Boys and Girls group
* St. Paul, MN, Indian Head Council: Passed a resolution asking BSA to reconsider its policy
* Montclair, NJ, Cub Scout Pack 5: Parents protested the policy with a petition
* Binghamton, NY, Baden-Powell Council: Passed a resolution asking BSA to reconsider its policy
* Ashland, OR, Cub Scout Den 2 of Pack 320: Withdrew from BSA in protest of the policy
* Providence, RI, Narragansett Council: Has twice asked BSA to reconsider its policy
* Providence, RI, Cub Scout Pack 88: Den leaders announced that they will defy the BSA's policy
* Providence, RI, Boy Scout Troop 28: Sent a letter to its council announcing that it will defy the BSA's policy

Other Select Actions Being Taken

* Spurred by opposition to BSA's anti-gay policy, the American Medical Association adopted a resolution stating that youth groups should lift bans on membership for gay youth because these bans contribute to anxiety and depression among gay youth and are bad public health policy;
* The Rhode Island Medical Society adopted a resolution saying that the Boy Scouts' anti-gay membership policy increases the likeliness of gay youth to be depressed and to commit suicide. At the annual American Medical Association (AMA) meeting this year, the organization urged the AMA to adopt a similar resolution that would apply to all youth organizations.
* Oscar-winning filmmaker Steven Spielberg stepped down from an advisory board of the BSA in April of 2001, stating, "The last few years in Scouting have deeply saddened me to see the Boy Scouts of America actively and publicly participating in discrimination. Itâs a real shame."
* John Archer, longtime philanthropist and activist in Salem, MA, cut ties with the BSA over its discriminatory policy.
* Michael R. Bloomberg, founder and chief executive of Bloomberg, L.P., spoke out against the BSA's policy of discrimination while being inducted into the Eagle Scout Hall of Fame in November of 2000
* Justice James R. Lambden of the California State Court of Appeals has cut his ties with BSA, saying the group's policy is unacceptable and raises ethical questions for all California judges
* New York State Assemblyman Fred Thiele declined to accept the Boy Scouts' invitation to be honored at a dinner because of the BSA policy * Curtis Hainds, an Eagle Scout who was a member of the Order of the Arrow and was named American Legion Eagle Scout of the Year for the state of Missouri in 1992, resigned in 1999 because of the BSA policy
* Rabbi Paul Menitoff, Executive Director of the Central Conference of American Rabbis, esigned his Eagle Scout rank and Order of the Arrow status in protest of the policy
* Frank Edward Allen, head of the Institutes for Journalism and National Resources and an Eagle Scout since 1962, and his eldest son Zachary, an Eagle Scout since 1993, turned in their medals in protest of the policy
* Gary Levitz, a major donor to the United Way of Johnson County, IA, resigned as campaign chairman of the United Way because of the agency's support of BSA, stating that United Way promotes anti-gay discrimination by supporting the Scouts.
* National Education Association Representative Assembly adopted July 2000: "NEA will urge state and local affiliates to work with school boards to establish policies requiring that all private organizations using school facilities have non-discriminatory membership policies"
* Communications Workers of America cut off ties to BSA and issued an Executive Board Resolution stating, "Teaching intolerance is a very poor lesson for our youth... CWA calls upon its local unions and members to refrain from supporting or participating in activities of the Boy Scouts."
* Triangle Community Works, a nonprofit organization serving the gay and lesbian population in Chapel Hill, NC, refused to accept contributions from its local United Way because it continues to support the BSA.
* Charlotte HIV/AIDS People Support, an AIDS agency in Port Charlotte, FL, announced in November of 2000 that it will not accept contributions from a BSA food drive due to the Scouts' discrimination
* Evergreen AIDS Foundation in Bellingham, WA announced that it would no longer accept funds from its local United Way because it also funded BSA; shortly thereafter, the local United Way amended its anti-discrimination policy
* Parris N. Glendening, Governor of Maryland, voiced his opposition to BSA policy in a letter to the Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, and Transgender Community Center of Baltimore and Central Maryland
* Former President Bill Clinton, in an interview with The Advocate, publicly stated his feelings on the BSA's policy: "I think the policy is wrong... I believe they'll change, and I think we should keep working on them."
* Syracuse University no longer will allow the Boy Scouts' Boy Power fund-raiser to take place on the campus. The University's Chancellor said that he could not allow the Boy Scouts to raise money that would further BSA's policies, which include exclusion based on sexual orientation.

Alternatives to the Boy Scouts: Youth Organizations That Do Not Discriminate

* Boys and Girls Clubs of America, www.bgca.org
* National 4-H Council, www.fourhcouncil.edu
* Camp Fire Boys and Girls, www.campfire.org
* Center for Youth as Resources, www.yar.org
* Girl Scouts, www.gsusa.org
* Jewish Community Centers, www.jcca.org
* YMCA, www.ymca.net

Source: Various news reports

Last updated: 6/15/01

[irishgrl]

Alternatives to the Boy Scouts: Youth Organizations That Do Not Discriminate

* Boys and Girls Clubs of America, www.bgca.org
* National 4-H Council, www.fourhcouncil.edu
* Camp Fire Boys and Girls, www.campfire.org
* Center for Youth as Resources, www.yar.org
* Girl Scouts, www.gsusa.org
* Jewish Community Centers, www.jcca.org
* YMCA, www.ymca.net


needless to say, I bookmarked all of the above. NUFF SAID

[irishgrl]

Traditional ORIGINAL Boy Scout Oath:

link:
http://www.inquiry.net/ideals/b-p/law.htm

B-P Law & Promise
The Scout Law is based on the 1912 and original 1908 edition of Baden-Powell's Scouting for Boys. It contains the rules which apply to Pathfinders and Scouts the entire world over, and which you promise to obey when you are invested as an Pathfinder. Study it carefully so that you understand the meaning of every point.
Traditional Scout Law

1. A Scout’s honor is to be trusted.
2. A Scout is loyal.
3. A Scout’s duty is be useful and to help others.
4. A Scout is a friend to all, and a brother to every other Scout.
5. A Scout is courteous.
6. A Scout is a friend to animals.
7. A Scout obeys orders.
8. A Scout smiles and whistles under all difficulties.
9. A Scout is thrifty.
10. A Scout is clean in thought, word, and deed.

Ok Jason, tell me where the Scout CREED mandates or even HINTS at religion in the foregoing--which is the ORIGINAL SCOUT OATH....

At your investiture as an Pathfinder you will have to make the Scout Promise in front of the rest of the Troop.

This Promise is very difficult to keep, because it is a so serious and you can't be a Pathfinder unless you do your best to live up to this oath. Scouting is not only fun, but it also requires a lot from you. Your willingness to make the Scout Promise indicates to others that you can be trusted to do everything you possibly can to keep your Scout Promise.
Traditional Scout Promise

On my honor I promise that I will do my best:
To do my duty to God and my country;
To help other people at all times;
To obey the Scout Law.

According to tradition, Baden-Powell wrote an alternative oath called the “Outlander Promise” for Scouts who could not, for reasons of conscience, recognize a duty to a King (the norm in the USA), for individuals or members of religions (such as Buddhism, Taoism, and others) that do not worship a deity, and for members of orthodox religions that do not use the name of God in secular settings. Any Member, Patrol, Section, or Group in a Scouting Association like ours may make the Traditional Outlander’s Scout Promise as an alternative oath.

Traditional Outlander's Scout Promise

On my honor I promise to do my best:
To render service to my country;
To help other people at all times;
To obey the Scout Law



If my son were able to recite this instead, I'd go ahead with his enrollment.

[irishgrl]

by the way, if anyone doubts the pervasive influence of the fundies after the post regarding the Outlander's Promise.....please note the following:

Search www.BSAlegal.org

To perform a keyword search, please enter text in the appropriate box below and click "Search". If no results are found, try broadening your search by dropping plurals (s) and avoiding multi-word searches.
Enter keyword and click "search" "Outlanders Promise"


No search results found. Please try broadening your search.

oh yeah.....NUFF SAID here too. I think its pretty obvious the intent of this seemingly "harmless" and "useful" organization in their quest to brainwash our young. Along the way if they manage to bamboozle the grownups, so much the better...............

[carrie721]

Woodcrafting, forestry, canoeing . . . . HMMMMMMMMMMMM

:laugh: maybe i should mention here that i was in girl scouts for, l ike, 8 years? :lol:

also, my brother was in boy scouts for years, and my mother never took us to church, and it was never an issue. :shrug:

[irishgrl]

:laugh: maybe i should mention here that i was in girl scouts for, l ike, 8 years? :lol:

also, my brother was in boy scouts for years, and my mother never took us to church, and it was never an issue. :shrug:

too bad my son couldnt join THEN. Like I said, its CHANGED :shrug:

[SuzeQuze]

Novell is largely Mormon, they have their own brainwashing principles, so naturally they wouldn't support the Boy Scouts who probably won't recognize their religion.

[strandinthewind]

So, the next time you have a meeting at your house and use a public utility, the Fed. Gov. should require you to have klansmen :shrug:

[irishgrl]

So, the next time you have a meeting at your house and use a public utility, the Fed. Gov. should require you to have klansmen :shrug:

whats yer point?

[strandinthewind]

whats yer point?

:rolleyes:

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[irishgrl]

:rolleyes:

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

again, what's yer point?

the mere usage of a public utility is NOT a criteria for anything.

[strandinthewind]

again, what's yer point?

the mere usage of a public utility is NOT a criteria for anything.

Please invite the klan to your next meeting - you being PC and all.

That you are even suggesting a private organization should have the govt. dictate its members is insane.

[irishgrl]

Please invite the klan to your next meeting - you being PC and all.

That you are even suggesting a private organization should have the govt. dictate its members is insane.

nowhere did I even HINT at such a thing. But (Supreme Court ruling aside) the BSA clearly satisfied the Appellate Court's criteria for PUBLIC ACCOMODATION. I happen to think that the Appellate Court got it right, and the Supremes by virtue of the prevalence of pew packed persons managed (again) to score another victory for the Fundies.

And, in another case (Which the BSA lost) the court found that they arent entitled to special consideration over other groups merely because they put God first.

So, again, what's your point? As several Court cases plainly show, a PRIVATE group that discriminates is NOT entitled to preferential use of PUBLIC facilities (such as High Schools) or funds (such as come from United Way)

[irishgrl]

From Wikipedia:

Governmental sponsorship of Scouting units
ACLU logo
Enlarge
ACLU logo

The ACLU has taken legal action to stop governmental organizations from serving as the chartered organizations (sponsors) of Scouting units. The U.S. Department of Defense announced in 2004 that it would end direct sponsorship of Scouting units in response to a religious discrimination lawsuit brought by the ACLU.[40] The BSA agreed in 2005 to transfer all charters it had issued to governmental entities to private entities in response to a request from the ACLU.[41] Previously, about 400 Scouting units had been sponsored by U.S. military bases and over 10,000 by other governmental entities, primarily public schools.[42]
[edit]

Access to governmental resources

The conditions under which the Boy Scouts of America can access public and nonpublic governmental resources have become controversial.[43] Historically, the BSA has often been granted preferential access to governmental resources such as lands and facilities.

When a private organization such as the BSA receives access on terms more favorable than other private organizations, it is known as "special" or "preferential" access whereas "equal" access is access on the same terms. For example, state and local governments may lease property to nonprofit groups (such as the BSA) on terms that are preferential to or equal to the terms they offer to commercial groups, in other words they may give nonprofit groups either special or equal access. Special access includes access at a reduced fee (including no fee) or access to places off-limits to other groups.

The U.S. Army gives the BSA special access to a base, Fort A.P. Hill, for its national Scout jamboree and the U.S. Department of Defense spends funds to support it. There is a legal controversy surrounding this funding; see Funding controversy for more information.

Many local governments have enacted anti-discrimination ordinances, and because of the BSA's exclusionary membership policies, some have moved to change the terms under which the BSA is allowed to access its resources. Private individuals have filed lawsuits to prevent governmental entities from granting what they see as preferential access.[44] The BSA on the other hand has sued governmental entities for denying what it sees as equal access.[45] It is not always clear what constitutes "special access" versus "equal access" and this can be the source of a dispute.

In response to these changes and litigation, the federal government passed laws regarding the BSA's equal access to governmental resources. The Boy Scouts of America Equal Access Act, enacted in 2002(another victory for the FUNDIES), requires public elementary and secondary schools that receive U.S. Department of Education funding to provide BSA groups equal access to school facilities.[46] The Support our Scouts Act of 2005 (yet ANOTHER victory for the FUNDIES)requires state and local governments that receive HUD funding to provide BSA groups equal access to governmental forums (lands, facilities, etc.). State and local governments still have flexibility regarding the provision of special access to the BSA.[47]

Litigation is pending on the terms under which the City of San Diego is providing access to the BSA and whether the federal government's funding of the national Scout jamboree is constitutional (See Barnes-Wallace v. Boy Scouts of America and Winkler v. Rumsfeld, respectively).[48][49] In March 2006, the California Supreme Court ruled in Evans v. Berkeley that the City of Berkeley did not have to continue to subsidize a local BSA unit, the Sea Scouts.[50]

Apparently, if you subscribe to the Religion of the Far Right, you luck out, though I think these policies stink. And, I will not support such a group nor will I allow my innocent boy to be brainwashed by same.

by the way, this
That you are even suggesting a private organization should have the govt. dictate its members is insane. is ironic given that the Government seems to be bending over backwards to accomodate this particular private organization.

[carrie721]

too bad my son couldnt join THEN. Like I said, its CHANGED :shrug:

oh, i know. i was just relating my family's experience. i'm certainly not endorsing boy scouts or anything; i disagree with many of their positions.

[irishgrl]

oh, i know. i was just relating my family's experience. i'm certainly not endorsing boy scouts or anything; i disagree with many of their positions.


gotcha. I personally think its too bad because I really like the Scouts in many ways and I wish there was a way this could still work.

[skcin]

So no tot he egging then? :shrug: Oh well, I offered.

[irishgrl]

So no tot he egging then? :shrug: Oh well, I offered.

Well, Im not saying no..............in fact I think its a FULL MOON outside isnt it? :laugh: