undereating?

[carrie721]

hey paula, i'm starting another food thread!

ok, it's almost laughable that i would start a thread entitled "undereating." but here's the sitch: i'm losing weight. i'm eating about 1500 calories a day and burning around 500 a day at the gym. is 1500 too low, even if i'm trying to lose weight? i'm losing between 2 and 3 pounds a week, which doesn't seem like an unhealthy amount to lose. but i never find myself feeling satisfied (food-wise) for a long period of time, even thought my diet is high in lean protein and veggies with a moderate amt. of whole grains, dairy, healthy oils (mostly from almonds, peanut butter, and coconut oil) and fruit. nothing i eat has a high glycemic index, so i don't feel a huge sugar crash, i just find myself getting hungry around 2 hours after every meal. does my body just need to get used to a new regimen? it's been three weeks that i've been really serious about it, so should i just wait it out? uhhh, i don't really know where i'm going with this. so yeah. thoughts?

[heyjupiter678]

hey paula, i'm starting another food thread!

ok, it's almost laughable that i would start a thread entitled "undereating." but here's the sitch: i'm losing weight. i'm eating about 1500 calories a day and burning around 500 a day at the gym. is 1500 too low, even if i'm trying to lose weight? i'm losing between 2 and 3 pounds a week, which doesn't seem like an unhealthy amount to lose. but i never find myself feeling satisfied (food-wise) for a long period of time, even thought my diet is high in lean protein and veggies with a moderate amt. of whole grains, dairy, healthy oils (mostly from almonds, peanut butter, and coconut oil) and fruit. nothing i eat has a high glycemic index, so i don't feel a huge sugar crash, i just find myself getting hungry around 2 hours after every meal. does my body just need to get used to a new regimen? it's been three weeks that i've been really serious about it, so should i just wait it out? uhhh, i don't really know where i'm going with this. so yeah. thoughts?

When I first began losing weight, I was eating between 1500-1800 calories, and still felt hungry most days. It took a few weeks for my body to adjust to the new way of eating, and then it wasn't long before it became a struggle to even get to 1500 calories/day. I stopped keeping track, though, because I'd become such a calorie nazi that I was constantly stressed out from counting the ****ing things.

Now, I just eat small meals multiple times a day (something at least every 2-3 hours) and drink only water, and I'm still losing about 2 lbs./week.

Yeah, this was probably no help at all. :-/ Sorry.

[catinthedark]

there are some great fitness and nutrition sites around where you can plug in all your information, and it gives good guidelines. how much you should be eating depends on your height, your age, your level of activity, etc. the sites will also give guidelines for protein, carbs, fat, etc.

here's a few - i googled body mass index and calories. there are literally thousands of sites; you could plug in your info on a few and see what kind of range you get. check the sources, etc. but it sounds like you are on the right track (though, i don't know your height or weight or age). what you're eating is certianly good - lots of lean protein and veggies. good luck!

http://www.wvda.org/calcs/

http://www.nutritiondata.com/calories-burned.html

http://www.self.com/fitness/body/calculators/bodymassindex

[irishgrl]

Girl, you just got a tapeworm is all. put the lime in the coconut and call me in the morning :thumbsup:

[goldustsongbird]

Girl, you just got a tapeworm is all. put the lime in the coconut and call me in the morning :thumbsup:

:lol: :lol:

[amber]

I eat every two hours anyway, usually. So, uh, I would just do that if I were you. I don't think you'd be too bad off adding 1-200 calories some days, but 1500 seems pretty right on target to me. I don't know if you already eat it, but raw broccoli is very filling.

This is a weird random note, but if you like black olives (or any kind, I suppose) A few of those a day is a good little snack.
Carrie, I'd get some fake meat snacks. They're pretty satisfying, too, and have more fiber than meat. The fake chicken patties of either Morningstar Farms or Boca are really tasty. You can fry or microwave them. They typically have 160 calories. Delish. About $4/box, four in a box.


Heyjupiter, good job. I didn't know you were doing that.

[irishgrl]

When I first began losing weight, I was eating between 1500-1800 calories, and still felt hungry most days. It took a few weeks for my body to adjust to the new way of eating, and then it wasn't long before it became a struggle to even get to 1500 calories/day. I stopped keeping track, though, because I'd become such a calorie nazi that I was constantly stressed out from counting the ****ing things.

Now, I just eat small meals multiple times a day (something at least every 2-3 hours) and drink only water, and I'm still losing about 2 lbs./week.

Yeah, this was probably no help at all. :-/ Sorry.
Mikki. I love you. are you looking forward to your "birthday present"?

Isnt it AWESOME to be a Libra? (sorry, gratuitous Libra promotion there!)

[carrie721]

When I first began losing weight, I was eating between 1500-1800 calories, and still felt hungry most days. It took a few weeks for my body to adjust to the new way of eating, and then it wasn't long before it became a struggle to even get to 1500 calories/day. I stopped keeping track, though, because I'd become such a calorie nazi that I was constantly stressed out from counting the ****ing things.

Now, I just eat small meals multiple times a day (something at least every 2-3 hours) and drink only water, and I'm still losing about 2 lbs./week.

Yeah, this was probably no help at all. :-/ Sorry.

no, that was totally helpful! i'm glad to know it's possible to get used to it. thanks.

there are some great fitness and nutrition sites around where you can plug in all your information, and it gives good guidelines. how much you should be eating depends on your height, your age, your level of activity, etc. the sites will also give guidelines for protein, carbs, fat, etc.

here's a few - i googled body mass index and calories. there are literally thousands of sites; you could plug in your info on a few and see what kind of range you get. check the sources, etc. but it sounds like you are on the right track (though, i don't know your height or weight or age). what you're eating is certianly good - lots of lean protein and veggies. good luck!

http://www.wvda.org/calcs/

http://www.nutritiondata.com/calories-burned.html

http://www.self.com/fitness/body/calculators/bodymassindex

thanks for the links :)

Girl, you just got a tapeworm is all. put the lime in the coconut and call me in the morning :thumbsup:

:laugh:

I eat every two hours anyway, usually. So, uh, I would just do that if I were you. I don't think you'd be too bad off adding 1-200 calories some days, but 1500 seems pretty right on target to me. I don't know if you already eat it, but raw broccoli is very filling.

This is a weird random note, but if you like black olives (or any kind, I suppose) A few of those a day is a good little snack.
Carrie, I'd get some fake meat snacks. They're pretty satisfying, too, and have more fiber than meat. The fake chicken patties of either Morningstar Farms or Boca are really tasty. You can fry or microwave them. They typically have 160 calories. Delish. About $4/box, four in a box.


Heyjupiter, good job. I didn't know you were doing that.

ok. i've been eating every 3 hours, maybe i should just change it to every 2. is raw broccoli more filling than steamed? i've been eating a lot of steamed veggies lately. oh, and i'm definitely planning on doing the fake meat thing. next time i go to the grocery store, i'll pick some up.

[amber]

no, that was totally helpful! i'm glad to know it's possible to get used to it. thanks.



thanks for the links :)



:laugh:



ok. i've been eating every 3 hours, maybe i should just change it to every 2. is raw broccoli more filling than steamed? i've been eating a lot of steamed veggies lately. oh, and i'm definitely planning on doing the fake meat thing. next time i go to the grocery store, i'll pick some up.

Yeah, it is more filling. It's hard to eat, kinda. I can usually only do a few good size florets. Naturally it is better if you dip it in a smidge of dressing. I can only recommend vinegar and oil in good conscience. *coughranchcough* :D
But if you can get in a snack of that most days, it will help a lot as far as being full. Also, that much broccoli only has about 25 calories, but 60% of your days vitamin C. It's a wonder food.
If you really don't like it, though, it's no big, lots of people don't. If you are eating a good amount of steamed broccoli. Again, soooo low in calories.
Raw cauliflower is much more palatable IMO, and filling as well. Not as much vitamin C, but still a great snack. :nod:

Thanks for the sites, Catinthedark!

[carrie721]

Yeah, it is more filling. It's hard to eat, kinda. I can usually only do a few good size florets. Naturally it is better if you dip it in a smidge of dressing. I can only recommend vinegar and oil in good conscience. *coughranchcough* :D
But if you can get in a snack of that most days, it will help a lot as far as being full. Also, that much broccoli only has about 25 calories, but 60% of your days vitamin C. It's a wonder food.
If you really don't like it, though, it's no big, lots of people don't. If you are eating a good amount of steamed broccoli. Again, soooo low in calories.
Raw cauliflower is much more palatable IMO, and filling as well. Not as much vitamin C, but still a great snack. :nod:

Thanks for the sites, Catinthedark!

more filling? ok. i'll start buying raw. i know it has more nutrients than steamed, also.

so ... i was lax with my diet today, and skipped the gym, and now i feel icky. and i didn't even enjoy being lazy & eating poorly. who am i???? :laugh: it's encouraging, actually.

[amber]

more filling? ok. i'll start buying raw. i know it has more nutrients than steamed, also.

so ... i was lax with my diet today, and skipped the gym, and now i feel icky. and i didn't even enjoy being lazy & eating poorly. who am i???? :laugh: it's encouraging, actually.

Isn't that weird how you notice that? That is good you don't like it. Just because you give yourself a free day doesn't mean you have to eat crappily. :laugh: But you could also eat nutritiously but with some naughty aspects - ie, caramel apple, guac and chips and salsa, brie and crackers with your vegetable soup...mmm...okay.
Anyway, I'm glad you're doing well with that.

[goldustsongbird]

I dunno how many calories I've been eating or not eating, but I managed to drop six lbs. Of course, I did just stuff my face with popcorn... Bet I gained it all back! :p

[carrie721]

Isn't that weird how you notice that? That is good you don't like it. Just because you give yourself a free day doesn't mean you have to eat crappily. :laugh: But you could also eat nutritiously but with some naughty aspects - ie, caramel apple, guac and chips and salsa, brie and crackers with your vegetable soup...mmm...okay.
Anyway, I'm glad you're doing well with that.

yeah, i actually found myself craving fruit more than anything.

I dunno how many calories I've been eating or not eating, but I managed to drop six lbs. Of course, I did just stuff my face with popcorn... Bet I gained it all back! :p

good job, ni ... er ... good buddy!

[goldustsongbird]

yeah, i actually found myself craving fruit more than anything.



good job, ni ... er ... good buddy!

Good restraint. :thumbsup:

[amber]

yeah, i actually found myself craving fruit more than anything.





Excellente! Food should control your cravings, that is the kind of food you should eat. That is why I was pushing fiber so much, it takes a long time to digest, which is what stabilizes your blood sugar.

What've you lost now, 6 lbs or something? That is so great. Be sure and stick with it. I mean, why shouldn't you? It's fun to exercise and stuff. And to be honest - your pic you posted was really cute, but at your weight I was a little concerned about your health (remember you told us your weight).
You will be really happy if you lose weight. I was, just losing a few pounds. Okay, like 10. :shrug:

Physical freedom is your birthright - don't ignore it, especially in your 20's when your joints don't hurt yet and stuff. :laugh: Your twenties are the time to feel good, play outside, have sex, and be hot. Also, if you are athletic like it seems you are, you are missing tons of cool **** by not playing outside in some form.
I mean, don't you want and deserve to make yourself feel good? To make your body and brain run at it's optimal capability? You will be so happy.
I'm not saying this because I think it is important for you to look hot, I'm saying it because I think you'll regret if you don't lose a bit, and eat brain healthy foods. Especially throughout your twenties.

Also, I think you might miss some joy if you don't exercise. *P.S. - Look and see if your town has recreational softball - it's totally fun. I was on a mixed gender team once, and a lesbian team once. The lesbian team was funner because I was relatively better. Also, the lesbians were nicer. *

Okay, end of lecture. I just want you to keep up with everything. Seriously, you will be way happier.

*I hope no one thinks this is rude, I just care about Carrie and say these same things to everyone anyways.* :laugh:
I really have a thing about people not exercising, in some way. I really find so much joy there, and sometimes in eating well (:p ) that I want everyone else to do it. To me it seems sad to have a life without fun exercise. Pretty often.
I don't really believe people who say they hate to exercise (I do somewhat, sometimes I hate to exercise, too. Dmuh.)
But what I would say is that they just haven't found their exercises of choice, yet. :woohoo:

Anyone who does/has done something physical that they enjoy really can't deny how good it feels. Sometimes it takes a few sessions, a few months. But if you practice, and find something you like, there is absolutely no chance you won't feel the benefits (feeling good) of exercise.
Some people like the gym, or a mix, or some like to exercise at home, or some like to do activities that aren't typically classified as "exercise" (Gardening, walking the dog, those 2 sets of sit ups you do while you're watching TV. Then maybe you do some calf raises while watching TV.

There are a lot of exercise DVD's available, I think by Netflix and others. My friend just told me that she loves them, because she can do them in between kid things, or when she has insomnia, for a few minutes at a time or longer if she has the time.

I was really happy for her - she doesn't like to exercise as much outside, she was a gymnast. She says something about how her ankles and wrists get sore easily (you need those for walking/running/skating/). I've asked her to go hiking numerous times, but she really won't.
But she likes the DVD's. She says the stretching one is harder - I agree - but she is already really flexible in her joints and stuff, from being a gymnast, so probably needs to find more challenging stretching/yoga. I have to force myself to stretch, too, but mostly because it's not only difficult, but a bit dull, for me. But I just do it, and I feel so much better. The thing I tell myself is: "Just 20 minutes" or "Just 10 minutes" or "just 3 sets" or "Just a few stretching moves while breathing deeply"
And that totally works - it makes everything seem worth it, because you realize that in the grand scheme of your time, 5,10,15,15,1 hour minutes isn't really that much compared to the time you could waste. And if you just start doing something, within a few minutes you won't feel as lethargic, or as antsy, as you did, and you may want to do more.
It's like, all you have to do is start doing something for 5-10-20 minutes.
Sometimes you won't do that long, but that isn't failing, maybe the next time you'll do 40 minutes or something - the point is to keep starting. Also, maybe you'll eat a King Sized Snickers, and some chips, but you just keep exercising when you can, and buy some other healthy stuff, and try to eat it - eventually you'll accomplish something if you keep attempting.

If anyone read that, I would count that as exercise. :laugh:

[skcin]

Excellente! Food should control your cravings, that is the kind of food you should eat. That is why I was pushing fiber so much, it takes a long time to digest, which is what stabilizes your blood sugar.

What've you lost now, 6 lbs or something? That is so great. Be sure and stick with it. I mean, why shouldn't you? It's fun to exercise and stuff. And to be honest - your pic you posted was really cute, but at your weight I was a little concerned about your health (remember you told us your weight).
You will be really happy if you lose weight. I was, just losing a few pounds. Okay, like 10. :shrug:

Physical freedom is your birthright - don't ignore it, especially in your 20's when your joints don't hurt yet and stuff. :laugh: Your twenties are the time to feel good, play outside, have sex, and be hot. Also, if you are athletic like it seems you are, you are missing tons of cool **** by not playing outside in some form.
I mean, don't you want and deserve to make yourself feel good? To make your body and brain run at it's optimal capability? You will be so happy.
I'm not saying this because I think it is important for you to look hot, I'm saying it because I think you'll regret if you don't lose a bit, and eat brain healthy foods. Especially throughout your twenties.

Also, I think you might miss some joy if you don't exercise. *P.S. - Look and see if your town has recreational softball - it's totally fun. I was on a mixed gender team once, and a lesbian team once. The lesbian team was funner because I was relatively better. Also, the lesbians were nicer. *

Okay, end of lecture. I just want you to keep up with everything. Seriously, you will be way happier.

*I hope no one thinks this is rude, I just care about Carrie and say these same things to everyone anyways.* :laugh:
I really have a thing about people not exercising, in some way. I really find so much joy there, and sometimes in eating well (:p ) that I want everyone else to do it. To me it seems sad to have a life without fun exercise. Pretty often.
I don't really believe people who say they hate to exercise (I do somewhat, sometimes I hate to exercise, too. Dmuh.)
But what I would say is that they just haven't found their exercises of choice, yet. :woohoo:

Anyone who does/has done something physical that they enjoy really can't deny how good it feels. Sometimes it takes a few sessions, a few months. But if you practice, and find something you like, there is absolutely no chance you won't feel the benefits (feeling good) of exercise.
Some people like the gym, or a mix, or some like to exercise at home, or some like to do activities that aren't typically classified as "exercise" (Gardening, walking the dog, those 2 sets of sit ups you do while you're watching TV. Then maybe you do some calf raises while watching TV.

There are a lot of exercise DVD's available, I think by Netflix and others. My friend just told me that she loves them, because she can do them in between kid things, or when she has insomnia, for a few minutes at a time or longer if she has the time.

I was really happy for her - she doesn't like to exercise as much outside, she was a gymnast. She says something about how her ankles and wrists get sore easily (you need those for walking/running/skating/). I've asked her to go hiking numerous times, but she really won't.
But she likes the DVD's. She says the stretching one is harder - I agree - but she is already really flexible in her joints and stuff, from being a gymnast, so probably needs to find more challenging stretching/yoga. I have to force myself to stretch, too, but mostly because it's not only difficult, but a bit dull, for me. But I just do it, and I feel so much better. The thing I tell myself is: "Just 20 minutes" or "Just 10 minutes" or "just 3 sets" or "Just a few stretching moves while breathing deeply"
And that totally works - it makes everything seem worth it, because you realize that in the grand scheme of your time, 5,10,15,15,1 hour minutes isn't really that much compared to the time you could waste. And if you just start doing something, within a few minutes you won't feel as lethargic, or as antsy, as you did, and you may want to do more.
It's like, all you have to do is start doing something for 5-10-20 minutes.
Sometimes you won't do that long, but that isn't failing, maybe the next time you'll do 40 minutes or something - the point is to keep starting. Also, maybe you'll eat a King Sized Snickers, and some chips, but you just keep exercising when you can, and buy some other healthy stuff, and try to eat it - eventually you'll accomplish something if you keep attempting.

If anyone read that, I would count that as exercise. :laugh:


I read it. :nod: The whole thing. I didn't even skim over anything. Swear.


I cannot agree with you more about finding activities that you like to do. If you think of it as a chore, it's not fun & you won't do it, no matter how good it makes you feel afterwards.

I also tend to tell myself that if I don't have at least 30 minutes, then it's not worth it so why bother. That's obviously not true. I really need to just get my ass up & moving (like you said) and not worry about specific times periods. Yesterday, I was able to take a 20 min. walk during lunch, then I walked to dog after work. Tonight will be the elliptical & weights/stretching.

OH! I almost forgot the most exciting thing! They're having a FREE morning yoga class once a week where I work, so I'm going to start that next month. I'm very excited. :blob1:

[amber]

I read it. :nod: The whole thing. I didn't even skim over anything. Swear.


I cannot agree with you more about finding activities that you like to do. If you think of it as a chore, it's not fun & you won't do it, no matter how good it makes you feel afterwards.

I also tend to tell myself that if I don't have at least 30 minutes, then it's not worth it so why bother. That's obviously not true. I really need to just get my ass up & moving (like you said) and not worry about specific times periods. Yesterday, I was able to take a 20 min. walk during lunch, then I walked to dog after work. Tonight will be the elliptical & weights/stretching.

OH! I almost forgot the most exciting thing! They're having a FREE morning yoga class once a week where I work, so I'm going to start that next month. I'm very excited. :blob1:

:blob1: :blob1: :blob1:
You will love it. It will be more difficult if you drink coffee in the morning. I can't remember if you do.

[carrie721]

Excellente! Food should control your cravings, that is the kind of food you should eat. That is why I was pushing fiber so much, it takes a long time to digest, which is what stabilizes your blood sugar.

What've you lost now, 6 lbs or something? That is so great. Be sure and stick with it. I mean, why shouldn't you? It's fun to exercise and stuff. And to be honest - your pic you posted was really cute, but at your weight I was a little concerned about your health (remember you told us your weight).
You will be really happy if you lose weight. I was, just losing a few pounds. Okay, like 10. :shrug:

Physical freedom is your birthright - don't ignore it, especially in your 20's when your joints don't hurt yet and stuff. :laugh: Your twenties are the time to feel good, play outside, have sex, and be hot. Also, if you are athletic like it seems you are, you are missing tons of cool **** by not playing outside in some form.
I mean, don't you want and deserve to make yourself feel good? To make your body and brain run at it's optimal capability? You will be so happy.
I'm not saying this because I think it is important for you to look hot, I'm saying it because I think you'll regret if you don't lose a bit, and eat brain healthy foods. Especially throughout your twenties.

Also, I think you might miss some joy if you don't exercise. *P.S. - Look and see if your town has recreational softball - it's totally fun. I was on a mixed gender team once, and a lesbian team once. The lesbian team was funner because I was relatively better. Also, the lesbians were nicer. *

Okay, end of lecture. I just want you to keep up with everything. Seriously, you will be way happier.

*I hope no one thinks this is rude, I just care about Carrie and say these same things to everyone anyways.* :laugh:
I really have a thing about people not exercising, in some way. I really find so much joy there, and sometimes in eating well (:p ) that I want everyone else to do it. To me it seems sad to have a life without fun exercise. Pretty often.
I don't really believe people who say they hate to exercise (I do somewhat, sometimes I hate to exercise, too. Dmuh.)
But what I would say is that they just haven't found their exercises of choice, yet. :woohoo:

Anyone who does/has done something physical that they enjoy really can't deny how good it feels. Sometimes it takes a few sessions, a few months. But if you practice, and find something you like, there is absolutely no chance you won't feel the benefits (feeling good) of exercise.
Some people like the gym, or a mix, or some like to exercise at home, or some like to do activities that aren't typically classified as "exercise" (Gardening, walking the dog, those 2 sets of sit ups you do while you're watching TV. Then maybe you do some calf raises while watching TV.

There are a lot of exercise DVD's available, I think by Netflix and others. My friend just told me that she loves them, because she can do them in between kid things, or when she has insomnia, for a few minutes at a time or longer if she has the time.

I was really happy for her - she doesn't like to exercise as much outside, she was a gymnast. She says something about how her ankles and wrists get sore easily (you need those for walking/running/skating/). I've asked her to go hiking numerous times, but she really won't.
But she likes the DVD's. She says the stretching one is harder - I agree - but she is already really flexible in her joints and stuff, from being a gymnast, so probably needs to find more challenging stretching/yoga. I have to force myself to stretch, too, but mostly because it's not only difficult, but a bit dull, for me. But I just do it, and I feel so much better. The thing I tell myself is: "Just 20 minutes" or "Just 10 minutes" or "just 3 sets" or "Just a few stretching moves while breathing deeply"
And that totally works - it makes everything seem worth it, because you realize that in the grand scheme of your time, 5,10,15,15,1 hour minutes isn't really that much compared to the time you could waste. And if you just start doing something, within a few minutes you won't feel as lethargic, or as antsy, as you did, and you may want to do more.
It's like, all you have to do is start doing something for 5-10-20 minutes.
Sometimes you won't do that long, but that isn't failing, maybe the next time you'll do 40 minutes or something - the point is to keep starting. Also, maybe you'll eat a King Sized Snickers, and some chips, but you just keep exercising when you can, and buy some other healthy stuff, and try to eat it - eventually you'll accomplish something if you keep attempting.

If anyone read that, I would count that as exercise. :laugh:

i read it too! i agree with everything you said. really, the advice & support i get here are invaluable to me. who knew i would learn more about nutrition at a FM message board than i've learned about FM? :laugh:

anyway, yes, 6 lbs. is the official number. i weighed myself yesterday and i had gained a pound, but i got my period today, so it doesn't count. i totally plan on sticking with it because really, i feel 1000 times better than i felt at the beginning of the summer. i feel energized during the day and tired at night, and i haven't been on any normal sleep schedule in years. who knew i could wake up at 7 when i didn't have to? who knew i could do the elliptical for 45 minutes? who knew? anyway, that was a totally awesome post, amber. thanks.

[amber]

i read it too! i agree with everything you said. really, the advice & support i get here are invaluable to me. who knew i would learn more about nutrition at a FM message board than i've learned about FM? :laugh:

anyway, yes, 6 lbs. is the official number. i weighed myself yesterday and i had gained a pound, but i got my period today, so it doesn't count. i totally plan on sticking with it because really, i feel 1000 times better than i felt at the beginning of the summer. i feel energized during the day and tired at night, and i haven't been on any normal sleep schedule in years. who knew i could wake up at 7 when i didn't have to? who knew i could do the elliptical for 45 minutes? who knew? anyway, that was a totally awesome post, amber. thanks.

Woooow, I'm totally happy you are doing so well! Actually, if you think you gained one pound, and it's your period, you will probably have lost 2 lbs by the end. You know. :D

Have you gotten to the "not as hungry with fewer calories" point yet?

[skcin]

:blob1: :blob1: :blob1:
You will love it. It will be more difficult if you drink coffee in the morning. I can't remember if you do.


Nope, just 1 cup of vanilla chai tea.

I'm really psyched about this class. :nod:


anyway, yes, 6 lbs. is the official number. i weighed myself yesterday and i had gained a pound, but i got my period today, so it doesn't count. i totally plan on sticking with it because really, i feel 1000 times better than i felt at the beginning of the summer. i feel energized during the day and tired at night, and i haven't been on any normal sleep schedule in years. who knew i could wake up at 7 when i didn't have to? who knew i could do the elliptical for 45 minutes? who knew? anyway, that was a totally awesome post, amber. thanks.

That's awesome! I can barely manage 30 on the elliptical even though I love it. I'm exhausted! And you can easily put on 2-3 pounds during your period, so no worries. Sounds like you're more focused on how you feel than specific numbers anyway, which is how it should be. Not that you shouldn't weigh youself, but if you lose 10 pounds & still feel like ****, that's no good. :D On the other hand, if you lose 5 but feel more energetic & happy - much better. :nod:

[carrie721]

Woooow, I'm totally happy you are doing so well! Actually, if you think you gained one pound, and it's your period, you will probably have lost 2 lbs by the end. You know. :D

Have you gotten to the "not as hungry with fewer calories" point yet?

i better lose 2 more pounds by the end of this! grr. :laugh:

yeah, i've been eating more often & more fiber, so i've not been getting hungry as often. and i've been eating less bread. before, i was having a sandwich a day on 9-grain bread, and now the only bread i eat is a 50-cal wheat wrap/tortilla thing, and i don't eat those very often. so i think that's helped.

oh, and i got some morningstar fake chicken. good stuff. my friend abbie & my mom are both intrigued by my new diet choices, and have been asking a lot of questions. my mom wants me to help her start planning dinners and stuff. :D

[DrummerDeanna]

Hey! Congrats on the weight loss! I'll have to go read through this whole thing when I don't want to kill everyone :laugh:

I'm so excited about starting with my weight stuff....your doing so well - I hope I can do as well :nod:

[carrie721]

That's awesome! I can barely manage 30 on the elliptical even though I love it. I'm exhausted! And you can easily put on 2-3 pounds during your period, so no worries. Sounds like you're more focused on how you feel than specific numbers anyway, which is how it should be. Not that you shouldn't weigh youself, but if you lose 10 pounds & still feel like ****, that's no good. :D On the other hand, if you lose 5 but feel more energetic & happy - much better. :nod:

yeah, i'm not too concerned about the numbers. really, where i am physically, i can't NOT lose weight right now. i thought about only weighing myself every once in a while, but i decided to do it more often b/c i'm kind of interested in seeing how different activities/routines affect my weight loss.

i'm so jealous of your class! i was planning on taking a yoga class at my gym this fall, but they've changed everything around, and now instead of offering beginning & advanced yoga & pilates classes, they've combined all of them and they just offer one "yogalates" class. wtf.

[SuzeQuze]

i read it too! i agree with everything you said. really, the advice & support i get here are invaluable to me. who knew i would learn more about nutrition at a FM message board than i've learned about FM? :laugh:

anyway, yes, 6 lbs. is the official number. i weighed myself yesterday and i had gained a pound, but i got my period today, so it doesn't count. i totally plan on sticking with it because really, i feel 1000 times better than i felt at the beginning of the summer. i feel energized during the day and tired at night, and i haven't been on any normal sleep schedule in years. who knew i could wake up at 7 when i didn't have to? who knew i could do the elliptical for 45 minutes? who knew? anyway, that was a totally awesome post, amber. thanks.

It really is amazing how much exercise can change your state of mind and everything. I've lost 2 more pounds for a total of 10 and now people are constantly telling me I've lost weight. It took so long for it to be noticable! But that's the kind of weight loss that is sustainable, slow and steady. I think what they say about weight training is totally true too. Now that I have some muscle mass my metabolism is higher, I'm always amazed on Monday that the crap I ate over the weekend has no effect on the scale!

Congrats to everyone who is working at eating well and exercising. At first it seems so hard but then it just becomes your lifestyle.

[amber]

i better lose 2 more pounds by the end of this! grr. :laugh:

yeah, i've been eating more often & more fiber, so i've not been getting hungry as often. and i've been eating less bread. before, i was having a sandwich a day on 9-grain bread, and now the only bread i eat is a 50-cal wheat wrap/tortilla thing, and i don't eat those very often. so i think that's helped.

oh, and i got some morningstar fake chicken. good stuff. my friend abbie & my mom are both intrigued by my new diet choices, and have been asking a lot of questions. my mom wants me to help her start planning dinners and stuff. :D

Wow, really? Your mom did that? My mom/parents were pretty resistant to my desired diet changes. Course, I was being vegan. And I didn't live with them, just lectured them. :laugh:
That is really great! It helps a lot when you live with people who may want to eat similarly.
I love those chix patties sooo much, it's ridiculous. I only really get them sometimes, b/c of the cost, but I totally love them. Also, just so you know - the Boca fake ground beef is pretty tasty, too. I cook it with salsa and some green onions, smidge of oil, then use it for burritos. I guess you don't eat many burritos, but if you wanted to, it kicks ass.
Did you ever find that Teryiaki stir fry with just chick and veggies that comes in a bag? Look again, that sh*t is tasty. Expensive kinda, again, though. It's like 7.99, then I buy it on sale when it's 4.99. Still.


It really is amazing how much exercise can change your state of mind and everything. I've lost 2 more pounds for a total of 10 and now people are constantly telling me I've lost weight. It took so long for it to be noticable! But that's the kind of weight loss that is sustainable, slow and steady. I think what they say about weight training is totally true too. Now that I have some muscle mass my metabolism is higher, I'm always amazed on Monday that the crap I ate over the weekend has no effect on the scale!

Congrats to everyone who is working at eating well and exercising. At first it seems so hard but then it just becomes your lifestyle.

I didn't know you lost 10 lbs! That is great. You looked really cute in your recent pics, but you looked pretty slim to me when I saw you in Vegas. :shrug: I can see how a 10 lb weight loss would look pretty dramatic on you. I'm glad you're getting nice muscles from weight training.
How're your calves? ;) :laugh: :xoxo:

After I lost the 10 lbs, random people just kept saying "you look great!" without saying I lost weight. Well, my boss asked if I lost weight. My best friend pinned it on the bangs when someone else commented on how great I look. I promptly said "no, it's not the bangs, it's the weight!" :p It may be that thing where I'm still the same shape, but thinner (or fatter) is why people don't totally notice the weight loss. Muscles, ya know. I think they mainly notice because my head gets less fat.

Anyway, I'm so happy for everyone, and Paula - I meant to tell you - you looked great in your camping jeans. :nod: Toned yet moderately slim. :D

[JazmenFlowers]

Congrats Carrie! my official loss is 12 since beginning of June. I'm hoping to be at least halfway to my goal by Christmas.

[skcin]

Anyway, I'm so happy for everyone, and Paula - I meant to tell you - you looked great in your camping jeans. :nod: Toned yet moderately slim. :D

Aw, thanks! You're the 3rd person that told me I looked good in those jeans, which is odd because they're a few years old & I didn't think they were looking so good anymore. :shrug: Good. I will wear them contstantly now. :D

[JazmenFlowers]

Aw, thanks! You're the 3rd person that told me I looked good in those jeans, which is odd because they're a few years old & I didn't think they were looking so good anymore. :shrug: Good. I will wear them contstantly now. :D
add me as the 4th. you look ab fab. I think you have a cute figure.

black strappy sandals - $45*
green dress with black lace overlay - $50*
the expression on Paula's face on NYE - priceless

*prices are guesstimated

[skcin]

add me as the 4th. you look ab fab. I think you have a cute figure.

black strappy sandals - $45*
green dress with black lace overlay - $50*
the expression on Paula's face on NYE - priceless

*prices are guesstimated

Now, being a bargain whore, I must point out that the dress was marked down to $28 & the shoes were around $20. :D

[carrie721]

Wow, really? Your mom did that? My mom/parents were pretty resistant to my desired diet changes. Course, I was being vegan. And I didn't live with them, just lectured them. :laugh:
That is really great! It helps a lot when you live with people who may want to eat similarly.
I love those chix patties sooo much, it's ridiculous. I only really get them sometimes, b/c of the cost, but I totally love them. Also, just so you know - the Boca fake ground beef is pretty tasty, too. I cook it with salsa and some green onions, smidge of oil, then use it for burritos. I guess you don't eat many burritos, but if you wanted to, it kicks ass.
Did you ever find that Teryiaki stir fry with just chick and veggies that comes in a bag? Look again, that sh*t is tasty. Expensive kinda, again, though. It's like 7.99, then I buy it on sale when it's 4.99. Still.

yeah, we'll see how long my mom stays interested in the idea ... she eats horribly. she has fast food almost every day, drinks a ton of coke, etc. she's going to get diabetes. she's just never had to eat well and exercise to stay thin ... she and both of her sisters were skinnnnnnny growing up. the difference is, her sisters started eating healthfully & exercising after they had kids. so anyway ... i haven't found that teryiaki chicken stuff yet, and i've been looking. could be we just don't have it here. i bought some morningstar spicy blackbean burgers today. i was turned off to the idea of veggie burgers for a long time because the ones we have at work are nass. tee. but now that i know fake meat can be good ... well, y'know.

oh, also, i emailed the parks & rec guy here about the fall softball league. yay! and i bought a soccer ball. now i just need to find someone who likes playing as much as i do ... my dogs like playing, b ut they're not much competition. :laugh:

ok, this post has taken me forever to write because i'm watching misery on tv, and i've been up since 5:45. and i went to the gym. and i went hiking.

[DrummerDeanna]

^^

GardenBurger has these amazing barbecue Riblets..I LOVE them...I eat them on a light roll or bread...make a sandwich out of one...they are sooo good.

Otherwise I don't like the meatless products. I like real meat. Are you veggie? There's no way in hell I'd go veggie :laugh: I did, however, read about grass-fed cow meat - it's more expensive but I'm going to go that routhe next time I buy meat. mmmm meat.

[carrie721]

^^

GardenBurger has these amazing barbecue Riblets..I LOVE them...I eat them on a light roll or bread...make a sandwich out of one...they are sooo good.

Otherwise I don't like the meatless products. I like real meat. Are you veggie? There's no way in hell I'd go veggie :laugh: I did, however, read about grass-fed cow meat - it's more expensive but I'm going to go that routhe next time I buy meat. mmmm meat.

ooh, that sounds good! i'm not veggie, but i've been thinking about it. i stopped eating red meat at the beginning of summer because it's so fatty, and except for tuna (occasionally), i don't eat fish because of a) the overfishing problem and b) i don't like most seafood. so like today, the only meat i've had is 2 slices of deli turkey. so am i mostly veggie? :laugh: is that an option? :lol: i think i could handle going fully veggie, but i'm not sure about vegan. i don't eat a ton of dairy, but soy milk products are really icky to me.

speaking of food, i'm kinda hungry ... :laugh:

[DrummerDeanna]

ooh, that sounds good! i'm not veggie, but i've been thinking about it. i stopped eating red meat at the beginning of summer because it's so fatty, and except for tuna (occasionally), i don't eat fish because of a) the overfishing problem and b) i don't like most seafood. so like today, the only meat i've had is 2 slices of deli turkey. so am i mostly veggie? :laugh: is that an option? :lol: i think i could handle going fully veggie, but i'm not sure about vegan. i don't eat a ton of dairy, but soy milk products are really icky to me.

speaking of food, i'm kinda hungry ... :laugh:


Red meat isn't always fatty - if you get ultra lean it's pretty good :nod: I still don't eat a ton of it, I much prefer chicken and fish (I've never had a problem with seafood.)

I agree about Soy Milk products - I've tried to switch I just don't like the taste or texture. Blech.

Only three more days until I start hitting the ground running with Weight Watchers. In the meantime I've been horrible heh.

[carrie721]

Red meat isn't always fatty - if you get ultra lean it's pretty good :nod: I still don't eat a ton of it, I much prefer chicken and fish (I've never had a problem with seafood.)

I agree about Soy Milk products - I've tried to switch I just don't like the taste or texture. Blech.

Only three more days until I start hitting the ground running with Weight Watchers. In the meantime I've been horrible heh.

good luck with WW. you're an active person, right? like, you ride your bike and stuff? you'll do great.

maybe my problem with soy is a brand problem ... maybe a different brand would taste better. or maybe i could try rice milk. or maybe i'm deliriously tired and should go to bed ... :laugh:

[DrummerDeanna]

good luck with WW. you're an active person, right? like, you ride your bike and stuff? you'll do great.

maybe my problem with soy is a brand problem ... maybe a different brand would taste better. or maybe i could try rice milk. or maybe i'm deliriously tired and should go to bed ... :laugh:


Ha - I was deliriously tired last night, so I understand. I am semi-active. I used to be way more - and I'm trying to get back to where I once was (going to the gym or riding the bike EVERYday).

Yeah - I've tried pretty much every brand of soy available at big grocery stores - nothing does it for me....but good luck with that. Do you not like milk? Why not just stick with that...if you're worried about the hormones and such organic milk is really good :nod:

[carrie721]

Ha - I was deliriously tired last night, so I understand. I am semi-active. I used to be way more - and I'm trying to get back to where I once was (going to the gym or riding the bike EVERYday).

Yeah - I've tried pretty much every brand of soy available at big grocery stores - nothing does it for me....but good luck with that. Do you not like milk? Why not just stick with that...if you're worried about the hormones and such organic milk is really good :nod:

i've been drinking organic milk for a couple years now - much tastier than regular and much better for my conscience. :laugh: i was hoping i would like soy milk just because it has a better protein to carb ratio. also, drinking too much milk makes me sick. umm, i dunno where i'm going with this.

anyway, once you start ww, you can join the cel-ledge-brity fit club! :lol:

[DrummerDeanna]

i've been drinking organic milk for a couple years now - much tastier than regular and much better for my conscience. :laugh: i was hoping i would like soy milk just because it has a better protein to carb ratio. also, drinking too much milk makes me sick. umm, i dunno where i'm going with this.

anyway, once you start ww, you can join the cel-ledge-brity fit club! :lol:

Yep = I'm looking forward to joining that club!!

yeah - nutritionally soy milk is better - but I don't care - I like real milk :laugh: I am going to do this thing by eating things I enjoy and are healthful - I get into trouble when I start trying to implement crap I hate into my diet.

Anyway - it seems like you're doing really well...keep up the good work!

[amber]

yeah, we'll see how long my mom stays interested in the idea ... she eats horribly. she has fast food almost every day, drinks a ton of coke, etc. she's going to get diabetes. she's just never had to eat well and exercise to stay thin ... she and both of her sisters were skinnnnnnny growing up. the difference is, her sisters started eating healthfully & exercising after they had kids. so anyway ... i haven't found that teryiaki chicken stuff yet, and i've been looking. could be we just don't have it here. i bought some morningstar spicy blackbean burgers today. i was turned off to the idea of veggie burgers for a long time because the ones we have at work are nass. tee. but now that i know fake meat can be good ... well, y'know.

oh, also, i emailed the parks & rec guy here about the fall softball league. yay! and i bought a soccer ball. now i just need to find someone who likes playing as much as i do ... my dogs like playing, b ut they're not much competition. :laugh:

ok, this post has taken me forever to write because i'm watching misery on tv, and i've been up since 5:45. and i went to the gym. and i went hiking.

Wow, you're on fire! :blob2: Great. If you want to eat red meat occasionally (you know, when you need iron, or have a craving), get free range, or buffalo meat and venison are both extremely lean. I don't know if regular stores carry the buffalo burgers, maybe just the natural food store.
That is cool you drink organic milk. So, what brands of soymilk have you tried? Anyone who tells you milk is healthy is a moron. :laugh: I have it occasionally.
I only like Vitasoy. Rice milk is okay, but high in carbs.
Anyhoo, good job!
Nice sig pic, by the way. :laugh:

[skcin]

A really good snack I've been eating recently is edamame. They're those soybeans you get at Japanese restaurants. Very high in protein, some fiber, and obviously soy. You can eat a whole bunch & there's not that many calories. I finally found them in the frozen section of the good grocery store here. I can have 1/2 a bag for 2 WW points. :thumbsup:

I like them because it takes a while to eat them (you have to take them out of the pods) so I can pick at them for a while & keep my fingers busy. Sometimes when I have a 1 piece snack (like a piece of fruit) I'm not satisfied cuz it's gone so fast. These are like popcorn - you can take time to savor them. :nod:

[JazmenFlowers]

A really good snack I've been eating recently is edamame. They're those soybeans you get at Japanese restaurants. Very high in protein, some fiber, and obviously soy. You can eat a whole bunch & there's not that many calories. I finally found them in the frozen section of the good grocery store here. I can have 1/2 a bag for 2 WW points. :thumbsup:

I like them because it takes a while to eat them (you have to take them out of the pods) so I can pick at them for a while & keep my fingers busy. Sometimes when I have a 1 piece snack (like a piece of fruit) I'm not satisfied cuz it's gone so fast. These are like popcorn - you can take time to savor them. :nod:
omg...we ARE soulmates after all. I could live off of edamame...and age dofu...and gyoza...and cucumber rolls with lots of wasabi.

when I found them in my frozen section I actually squeeled. who? me?

[DrummerDeanna]

Anyone who tells you milk is healthy is a moron.

Nice passive agressive jab. Thanks.

And I'm apt to believe Yale professors and the like before you - Milk definitely has health benefits....it's withstood the test of oh...thousands of years - so...anyone who says milk is healthy is NOT a moron. But thanks.


I'm not looking for an argument - because basically it's fruitless - I'll stick with mega educated people who have dedicated their lives to studying this stuff. That's all.

[skcin]

I'll be a moron too. :shrug: I don't think we should all start chugging gallons of whole milk every day (I don't even like it much), but I doubt a bit of 1% every day is gonna kill me.

[DrummerDeanna]

I'll be a moron too. :shrug: I don't think we should all start chugging gallons of whole milk every day (I don't even like it much), but I doubt a bit of 1% every day is gonna kill me.

No of course not, but a serving or two has a lot of health and nutrient benefits. Is it the BEST source? Probably not - but the benefits and healthfulness can't be denied.

Whole Milk is actually bad though - there is no reason any person over age say 5 should drink whole milk...but I enjoy 1% or Skim - and guess I am one of seemingly few who actually like the taste and enjoy milk :nod: yum.

[SuzeQuze]

I didn't know you lost 10 lbs! That is great. You looked really cute in your recent pics, but you looked pretty slim to me when I saw you in Vegas. :shrug: I can see how a 10 lb weight loss would look pretty dramatic on you. I'm glad you're getting nice muscles from weight training.
How're your calves? ;) :laugh: :xoxo:

The calves look more toned but are same size but thighs are smaller. I just started working calves though so we'll see how they change. I will keep u posted.

Well, I wasn't slim in Vegas, I just know how to dress myself. Back in Jan I was a size 12 and 162 lbs and am now a 10 and 151 lbs (I lost another pound). You know, I am not sure what I weighed in Vegas, 162 was my heaviest and I think I was about 155 in Vegas. So I guess I'm not that much smaller. Although I'm more muscular and muscle weighs more than fat. I too can really tell in my face. No more double chin and I can kind of see cheekbones!

After I lost the 10 lbs, random people just kept saying "you look great!" without saying I lost weight. Well, my boss asked if I lost weight. My best friend pinned it on the bangs when someone else commented on how great I look. I promptly said "no, it's not the bangs, it's the weight!" :p It may be that thing where I'm still the same shape, but thinner (or fatter) is why people don't totally notice the weight loss. Muscles, ya know. I think they mainly notice because my head gets less fat.

You do look great. And I can tell you are feeling better too.

People just started saying that to me a couple of months ago too but now they are noticing it's the weight. I heard my roommate's friend ask in her stage whisper "Has she lost weight?" I haven't seen her in like a year. Then everyone at my cookout asked. Except my aunt who is heavy and hates skinny or thin people. Why would she compliment me? No biggie though, I wouldn't expect it.

People ask how and I just tell them I kick my ass in the gym. Of course I watch what I eat too. I guess it isn't rocket surgery but it is just hard to get started.

My Mom does NOT take care of herself and whines about her weight. I just tell her like a drill sergeant, "Get moving!" She's very sedentary. I worry about her. :distress:

[amber]

I'll be a moron too. :shrug: I don't think we should all start chugging gallons of whole milk every day (I don't even like it much), but I doubt a bit of 1% every day is gonna kill me.

I didn't say it would kill anyone. I said if someone tells you milk is healthy they are a moron. :D Big difference from someone drinking to someone trying to say it's healthy.
So, Paula, tell me - do you think milk is healthy? Hmm? Do you? Would you tell someone, say "Try to eat at least five servings of fruits, veggies, and milk per day for optimum health"?
Don't make me gather evidence and stuff. You know I hate that. :laugh: But I can. Many, many studies show cow milk just really isn't great for humans to drink. I've been reading about that fact since about 1996 or so. From various sources. No, it won't kill you.

[DrummerDeanna]

I didn't say it would kill anyone. I said if someone tells you milk is healthy they are a moron. :D So, Paula, tell me - do you think milk is healthy? Hmm? Do you? Would you tell someone, say "Try to eat at least five servings of fruits, veggies, and milk per day for optimum health"?
Don't make me gather evidence and stuff. You know I hate that. :laugh:

There is evidence that it IS healthy. I will find Yale and other legit sources on this. Ever heard of calcium? Potasium?

Is it the BEST source of these? No.

Is milk UNhealthy? No. Any evidence you can find that it isn't- there is an equal amount of evidence that it is.

[SuzeQuze]

Milk has healthy vitamins and minerals. But the hormones, even that natural ones, aren't very good for people. There is also evidence that dairy products exacerbate and perhaps cause allergies and asthma. I wouldn't call anyone a moron for saying it's healthy though. I just happen to follow Dr. Weil's advice, or try to, and he says to avoid it for the reasons above.

[DrummerDeanna]

Milk has healthy vitamins and minerals. But the hormones, even that natural ones, aren't very good for people. There is also evidence that dairy products exacerbate and perhaps cause allergies and asthma. I wouldn't call anyone a moron for saying it's healthy though. I just happen to follow Dr. Weil's advice, or try to, and he says to avoid it for the reasons above.


The hormone thing is a bit better with organic milk - and organic milk tastes much better. I'm not lactose intolerant, and milk remains a good source of calcium and vitamin D in my life..and I like it...

I just read a study this morning from Yale on the benefits - so it's fresh in my mind. Again - I'm aware it's not the best - but it's also not the worst.

[carrie721]

Wow, you're on fire! :blob2: Great. If you want to eat red meat occasionally (you know, when you need iron, or have a craving), get free range, or buffalo meat and venison are both extremely lean. I don't know if regular stores carry the buffalo burgers, maybe just the natural food store.
That is cool you drink organic milk. So, what brands of soymilk have you tried? Anyone who tells you milk is healthy is a moron. :laugh: I have it occasionally.
I only like Vitasoy. Rice milk is okay, but high in carbs.
Anyhoo, good job!
Nice sig pic, by the way. :laugh:

:lol: yeah, i don't even remember why that pic was taken, but there it is ...

i've only had silk, and i think i had the sweetened stuff. i actually like the vanilla kind, but that's cheating. :laugh:

A really good snack I've been eating recently is edamame. They're those soybeans you get at Japanese restaurants. Very high in protein, some fiber, and obviously soy. You can eat a whole bunch & there's not that many calories. I finally found them in the frozen section of the good grocery store here. I can have 1/2 a bag for 2 WW points. :thumbsup:

I like them because it takes a while to eat them (you have to take them out of the pods) so I can pick at them for a while & keep my fingers busy. Sometimes when I have a 1 piece snack (like a piece of fruit) I'm not satisfied cuz it's gone so fast. These are like popcorn - you can take time to savor them. :nod:

yum! i was reading a fitness mag at the gym earlier, and it had recipes with edamame. i should pick some up at the grocery store later.

when I found them in my frozen section I actually squeeled. who? me?

i believe it. :p

[amber]

^^^^

Most regular people do not have all the info on what milk really does. Since I've been studying this for so long, I do. I choose to believe the sources that say it's not really good for you, because the evidence is scientifically sound, and also comes from sources who have no interest in the beef industry. People say it has this or that nutrients - but that comes in a form that because of the nature of cows milk is difficult for humans to absorb. Calcium from milk is a common misconception - it has calcium, but we can't absorb it, because of the high protein content, which causes leaching of calcium from the bones.



Cow's Milk
Updated: March 16, 2005

Milk and other dairy products are included in many vegetarian diets. Dairy is a rich source of calcium, vitamin B12, vitamin D, and other nutrients. It has been a part of many cultures for centuries, especially in Northern Europe. For religious Hindus, milk is considered sacred.

Yet the majority of the world's peoples do not come from cultures that have a history of dairy consumption. These people often have problems digesting it. And with the advent of modern mechanized dairy production, milk may not be as pure as it once was.

What follows is an in depth overview of some of the potential problems associated with dairy, and a look at the alternatives.

Sections below:
Lactose Intolerance
Milk fat
Allergies
Osteoporosis
Yogurt
Iron deficiency in infants
Ovarian cancer
Diabetes in children
Women & dairy
Stress, antibiotics, mastitis, and pus
Non-dairy calcium sources
Soy milk as a healthy alternative

Is drinking milk natural?

Human beings are the only species (other than house cats) to consume milk past childhood. We are also the only species to consume the milk of another species. Yet, at about the age of four, most people around the world begin to lose the ability to digest lactose, the carbohydrate found in milk. This results in a condition known as lactose intolerance that causes a range of unpleasant abdominal symptoms, including stomach cramps, flatulence and diarrhea.

Lactose intolerance is a reality for 75% of the world's population. In Canada, while many adult Caucasians have the ability to digest lactose, a large number of First Nations People, Asians, Africans and people of Jewish ancestry are lactose deficient.1

Even though consuming dairy is unnatural and problematic for many people, Canada's Food Guide recommends 2–4 servings per day, and the US Food Guide Pyramid recommends 2-3 servings. One serving is defined as 1 cup of milk, 2 slices of cheese or 3/4 cup of yogurt.

Milk fat

Whole cow's milk is a high-fat fluid, designed by nature to turn a 60–70 lb (27–30 kg) calf into a 300–600 lb (135–275 kg) cow in one year.

High-fat dairy products such as cheese, butter and cream contain saturated fat. Saturated fat is the most important dietary factor involved in raising blood cholesterol levels. The consumption of high-fat dairy products has also been found to cause atherosclerosis, heart disease and stroke. Finland which has a death rate from heart disease that is among the highest in the world, also has one of the highest rates of dairy product consumption.2

Low-fat milk and cheese products are still significantly high in total fat, saturated fat and cholesterol. For example, 2% milk has become much more popular than homogenized milk, yet it still derives one third of its total calories from fat. Skim milk mozzarella with approximately 15% milk-fat is considered a low-fat cheese, yet a 1-ounce slice contains 5 grams of fat, totaling 56% calories from fat! So don't be fooled by the "skim milk" label.

The wide range of skimmed milk products available in grocery stores reflects health concerns over high-fat dairy products. But for many people, low-fat dairy products may still be an unacceptable alternative.

Low-fat dairy products linked to heightened allergies

The high protein content of low-fat dairy products is actually more allergenic than dairy products with a high-fat content.3 Dairy products are one of the leading causes of food allergies and food sensitivities causing allergic responses in people of all ages, especially infants and young children. It is estimated that 1–7% of infants are allergic to cow's milk protein. Infants who react to milk also have a greater likelihood of developing allergies to other foods.4

Allergies to dairy products can cause a wide range of symptoms including irritability, restlessness, hyperactivity, depression, abdominal pain, cramps or bloating, gas, diarrhea, bad breath, headaches, lack of energy, constipation, poor appetite, mal-absorption of nutrients, nasal stuffiness, runny nose sinusitis, asthma, shortness of breath, rashes, and eczema.5

Osteoporosis & the milk connection

North America has one of the highest consumptions of dairy products, and also the highest incidence of osteoporosis – a disease of brittle bones formed through the loss of calcium. The dairy lobby has many campaigns and advertisements encouraging people to consume large quantities of dairy products to ward off this dreaded disease later in life. But that's not the whole story.

Regardless of how much calcium you take in, the amount your body can actually absorb and retain matters more.

The high animal protein intake typical of North American diets can make it difficult to retain calcium. Digesting animal protein creates an acidic environment in the body. To neutralize the acid, the body may rob calcium from the bones. Years of this pattern can contribute in osteoporosis later in life.6

A study published in 2001, found that "elderly women with a high dietary ratio of animal to vegetable protein intake have more rapid neck bone loss and a greater risk of hip fracture than do those with a low ratio. This suggests that an increase in vegetable protein intake and a decrease in animal protein intake may decrease bone loss..." Several studies have found that "in comparison with animal protein, soy protein decreases calcium excretion, a result of the lower sulfur amino acid content of soy protein."7

To prevent osteoporosis it is also important to get enough Vitamin D, avoid smoking and limit coffee and alcohol. Weight-bearing exercise such as running, dancing and walking is especially helpful. (see Key Nutrients for more information on vitamin D).

Yogurt

Yogurt is the healthiest dairy product because of its live bacterial enzyme cultures that foster a healthy colon, and even may lower the risk of colon cancer. The culturing process makes yogurt more digestible than milk. The live active cultures create lactase, the enzyme lactose-intolerant people lack. Some yogurts are pasteurized again after the fermentation process. This kills the beneficial bacteria cultures and decreases many of the health benefits. Check the label, and look for the brands with the simplest ingredients. It is best to avoid frozen yogurt – most brands have no live cultures, are high in fat (some as fatty as ice cream), and the low-fat versions are usually high in sugar. An average non-fat serving of frozen yogurt contains approximately seven teaspoons of sugar.

Note: all yogurts have the high protein content and related problems mentioned above. Non-dairy soy yogurts containing live cultures are available.

Iron deficiency in infants

According to Frank Oski, the late Chairman of Pediatrics at Johns Hopkins Medical School, "Drinking large quantities of cow's milk has long been recognized to produce iron-deficiency anemia in infants... Cow's milk contains less than 1 mg of iron per quart. Very little of this iron is absorbed from the intestinal tract because other constituents of the milk bind with the iron... Many infants drink 1-2 quarts of milk per day. This tends to satisfy their hunger and they are left with very little appetite for the necessary iron-containing foods."8 Breast milk is the best source of iron for infants.

Ovarian cancer

Ovarian cancer is more common in Northern Europe than in Asian populations and the consumption of milk products may be the reason. Studies have found that there is a higher risk of ovarian cancer in women who consume lactose (sugar in milk). This was the conclusion of a study published in 2004, that tracked 80,326 participants in the Nurses' Health Study. A Swedish study of 61,084 women found that high intakes of lactose and dairy products, particularly milk, are associated with an increased risk of serious ovarian cancer but not other subtypes of ovarian cancer.9

Cow's milk & diabetes in children

Several studies have linked cow's milk to diabetes in children. Something in milk (possibly bovine serum albumin) may cause an immune reaction in diabetic children leading to the destruction of the body's insulin-producing cells. Breast-fed infants who are not fed cow's milk seem to have a measure of protection against diabetes. Avoiding cow's milk may delay or prevent diabetes in susceptible individuals. A 2003 study of 4,701 ten to sixteen year-old adolescents from 11 European countries found that cow's milk and animal product consumption were associated with higher rates of type 1 diabetes when Icelandic data was excluded.10

Women & dairy

According to gynecologist, Christiane Northrum, "Stopping dairy food often improves menstrual cramps, endometriosis pain, allergies, sinusitis and even recurrent vaginitis." Other problems associated with dairy food may include: benign breast conditions, chronic vaginal discharge, acne, fibroids, and chronic intestinal upset. "I can't help but think that there might be some correlation between over stimulation of the cow's mammary glands and subsequent over stimulation of our own, resulting in benign breast conditions."13

Stress, antibiotics, mastitis, and pus

People who regard milk as "the perfect food" rarely think about milk as a commercial product – prone to the hazards of mass-production. John Robbins, author of May All Be Fed, puts it well; "The modern-day Bessie is now bred, fed, medicated, inseminated, and manipulated for a single purpose – maximum milk production at a minimum cost."

In order to produce milk, a dairy cow must give birth. To maximize their milk supply they are artificially inseminated every year, meaning they are pregnant for a physically demanding 9 months out of every 12. Their calves are traumatically taken from them shortly after birth. The resulting surplus of calves feeds the veal industry.

With genetic manipulation and intensive production technologies, Canadian cows produce an average of 9,519 kg of milk per year (2003) — seven times more than they would produce naturally. When their milk production wanes after about four years, dairy cows are sent to slaughter where their worn out bodies are ground up into hamburger.

These unnatural conditions make the modern dairy cow highly prone to stress and disease.

The most damaging stress-related disease is mastitis (an inflammation of the udders). It reduces milk yield and directly affects milk quality by altering composition and increasing the somatic cell count (pus). The National Mastitis Council estimates that it costs about $200 per cow per year on the average dairy farm. In Quebec, mastitis is the second-leading cause of culling.11

Antibiotics, mostly common penicillin, are given to cows for treatment of mastitis. Cows are not supposed to be milked for 48 hours after receiving penicillin. When this precaution is not followed the penicillin appears in the milk in small amounts.12

In 1993, Food and Drug Administration in the United States approved the use of a synthetic growth hormone, rBGH (also known as rBST). This genetically engineered hormone, so far banned in Canada and Europe, has no therapeutic value but to boost milk production. This can cause additional stress, and more frequent bouts of mastitis.

[amber]

DOES MILK CAUSE PROSTATE CANCER?

Gabe Mirkin, M.D.

A provocative study from Harvard Medical School shows that men who eat diary products regularly have a 30 percent greater chance of suffering prostate cancer than those who eat less than half a serving per day.

How can this be? Isn't milk a health food? Many of you will be shocked by these findings, but this study is the largest done yet, it is done by arguably the most respected epidemiology teams in the world and there is a physiologic explanation for the results. Milk is loaded with calcium and taking large amounts of calcium lowers blood levels of the body's form of vitamin D called 1,24 dihydroxyvitamin D that prevents cancers (2). Of course, milk is usually fortified with vitamin D, but there is so much more calcium than vitamin D in milk that the extra calcium drains vitamin D from the body.

This study shows that men who take in more than six glasses of vitamin D fortified milk per week have lower levels of vitamin D than those who take in fewer than two glasses. This tells you that you shouldn't believe everything that you hear, even if it comes from scientific studies. These studies imply that you don't need to drink milk and that taking calcium supplements may harm you. Lack of vitamin D is usually caused by lack of sunlight as very few people get the vitamin D that they need from food. Vitamin D deficiency is common in winter, particularly in people who live in the northern parts of the globe and people with dark skin.

1) Results of the Physicians Study presented at the American Association for Cancer Research in San Francisco April 4, 2000. 2) AM Barreto, GG Schwartz, R Woodruff, SC Cramer. 5-hydroxyvitamin D-3, the prohormone of 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D-3, inhibits the proliferation of primary prostatic epithelial cells.Cancer Epidemiology Biomarkers & Prevention, 2000, Vol 9, Iss 3, pp 265-270. these findings support a potential role for vitamin D in the chemoprevention of prostate cancer.

[amber]

With all the evidence available about the detriments of dairy, once you know that info, it is foolish to ignore it or try to refute it. So many studies from many parts of the world, many respected Colleges and Institutions, scientists, doctors, etc. I really don't give two squirts of a cow's udder if people drink milk, but I do care about misinformation being spread.



Breast Cancer and Dairy
A Chat With Author, Scientist Jane Plant
ABCNEWS.com

Jan. 18 —
chat
"Drink milk — it will prevent osteoporosis." Women have heard that line for years. But scientist Jane Plant, author of Your Life in Your Hands, says you should put your glass down.

Plant has faced breast cancer five times since 1987. Today her body is cancer-free and she attributes her recovery to a strict dairy-free diet.

Plant claims there's a link between Western diets with high dairy consumption and high rates of breast cancer, though there is no medical proof of this. She joined us in a live chat following her appearance on Good Morning America. A transcript appears below.
Moderator at 12:00pm ET
We're joined by Jane Plant, a scientist and author of Your Life in Your Hands, a book chronicling her battle with breast cancer and her belief that a dairy-free diet saved her life.

Despite having no family history of breast cancer, Jane had five recurrences of the disease. On her fifth diagnosis, given just three months to live, she turned to her training as a scientist and decided to cut dairy out of her diet. Seven years later, she is cancer-free. Jane, thanks for joining us.

How did you arrive at the conclusion that the dairy products in your diet might be affecting your health?

Jane Plant at 12:03pm ET
Well, I had worked a lot in China on links between the environment and human health — for example, the relationship between selenium deficiency and heart disease — and the Chinese had given me, at that time, an atlas of cancer mortality in their country.

Suddenly, when I was given a diagnosis of three months to live, I remembered that the atlas showed an incredibly low rate of breast cancer in China, and I tried to think what was behind that difference between the incidence China and the West.

I wondered whether it was the low fat diet, but I'd had a low fat diet. I knew of the theory that the soya was protective, but I'd been having a lot of soya. And, suddenly, I remembered that all the Chinese people I knew wouldn't touch dairy products, because they often lack the enzyme needed to digest it. So I thought that that was worth a try.

Moderator at 12:04pm ET
Martha Waters asks: "Did you give up calcium supplements as well as dairy
products?"

Jane Plant at 12:05pm ET
I don't take any calcium supplements, because the diet that I follow has lots of healthy sources of calcium in it. For example, certain vegetables are very rich in calcium and, indeed, some fruits are, too. Also, spreads such as tahini, which is a sesame spread, are very rich in calcium. So I have lived on a dairy-free diet now for seven and a half years, and I have no signs of osteoporosis. I have long, strong nails, and my health is better than it ever was. I believe that "calcium equals dairy" is a myth. Moderator at 12:05pm ET
Tracey Newhall wonders: "What, specifically, is in dairy foods that contributes to the growth of cancer?" Jane Plant at 12:08pm ET
Dairy products contain certain hormones, for example, estrogen and prolactin, which are contained in dairy milk, and oxytocin, and, in addition, they contain growth factors. These growth factors are designed to keep young cattle developing once they're out of the mother's womb and they can eat grass.

One of these growth factors, called IGF-1, has been strongly implicated in both breast and prostate cancer by many researchers, and I've given the references to that research in the book. Also, milk can contain concentrations of artificial chemicals which the body cannot distinguish from hormones such as estrogen and these are thought to disrupt the body's hormone system.

So dairy contains hormones, growth factors, and these stranger estrogens, all implicated in breast cancer.

Chris from pm1.ezlink.com at 12:08pm ET
Does it make a difference if the dairy product is organic? Is organic dairy OK to consume?

Jane Plant at 12:09pm ET
No, I don't think it is. It might be marginally safer, but not fundamentally. I only ate organic dairy products before I gave it all up.

Georgina Nash, RN from proxy.aol.com at 12:09pm ET
Jane, are you familiar with Dr. John McDougal and the "McDougal Plan"? His books have concrete evidence that dairy products are directly linked to breast cancer, and many other cancers!

Jane Plant at 12:10pm ET
That's very interesting, and I'd be very pleased to look at that, but, no, I'm not familiar with his work.

Moderator at 12:11pm ET
Neal writes: "I am a scientist working on cancer. Your theory linking milk and breast cancer is quite interesting. Milk [cow or goat] has been a regular staple of most people's diets for thousands of years. Yet, there has been absolutely no evidence over the millennia that milk and dairy products cause anything more than a lactose reaction. How do you rule out everything else in your life as the culprit (environmental carcinogens, mutations of cancer regulating genes, etc)?"

Jane Plant at 12:13pm ET
I think there are two types of carcinogens: those that cause cancer, and those that promote it. I believe that dairy promotes cancer, because of the substances in it. The statistics on breast cancer in countries like Thailand, Japan, China, and Korea, which never adopted a dairy diet, contrast very markedly with statistics in the West, where, as you say, people adopted the dairy diet from about eight thousand years ago.

Studies between different populations, migrations studies, show that when Chinese people emigrate and live on a Western diet, their likelihood of developing these cancers increases. Studies done on breast cancer cultures are consistent with dairy products causing both breast cancer in women and prostate cancer in men.

I've given all the references in my book, including one by three doctors from Princeton University in which they reviewed the findings of 135 research papers, and reached conclusions almost identical to those I've written about.

Moderator at 12:14pm ET
A question from Michael Manchester: "Dr. Frank Oski, pediatrician, former director of the Children's Center at John Hopkin's University and prolific author and lecturer wrote the book Don't Drink Your Milk in 1983 in which he questioned the presumed nutritional benefits of dairy products.

Yet Dr. Oski also died of prostate cancer. Having not read this book, can you comment as to whether cancer issues are raised in it, and how it would be that an opponent of dairy would die of cancer. Would dairy contribute to breast cancer in a way that it wouldn't influence prostate cancer?"

Jane Plant at 12:15pm ET
I haven't read his book. I think dairy is associated with prostate cancer, but one of the problems with dairy is that it is hidden in other foods, and you don't always know when you're consuming dairy products.

Meat can also contain levels of chemicals like IGF-1 and so I've described in the book how to cook meat safely to cut down the risk of IGF-1 and other hormones from meat getting into your diet.


mary pf. from ncn.com at 12:15pm ET
Could goat's milk [and derivative products] be any safer?

Jane Plant at 12:16pm ET
I don't know. But I decided to cut out all dairy products, because I just don't think they're necessary, and I don't want to take any risks.

Kay Sanders at 12:16pm ET
I am allergic to milk and milk products. I am a breast cancer survivor since 1985. Do you think stress or diet has the bigger impact on cancer patients?

Jane Plant at 12:20pm ET
I think it's diet, mainly, but, as I said, some other animal products have levels of IGF-1 in them, and it's important to check that you're not inadvertently consuming dairy. Sometimes you think you're buying a spread that has olive oil and it contains significant quantities of dairy. In the U.K., many prescription drugs are in a lactose matrix, and whey from milk can be the basis of many commercial soups, so people may be unaware that they're actually having dairy products.

I would also like to add that the diet isn't just simply "cut out dairy." There are several food factors discussed in it. The book recommends changing from dairy to soya, provides information on which fruits and vegetables are protective against breast cancer, gives advice on getting your fat profile right, and it tells you which drinks are best to drink, and how to deal with recycled water that can contain hormones.

So it isn't just as simple as cutting out dairy foods; it's a whole integrated program for tackling breast and prostate cancer.

Moderator at 12:20pm ET
Maria Aebi writes: "I am a one-year survivor or breast cancer. Previously, cheese played heavily in my diet. I wondered about its effect, but on the other hand, have you researched countries like Switzerland, for example, whose consumption of cheese per capita is high?"

Jane Plant at 12:21pm ET
Yes, and their breast cancer rates are very high. Most countries that follow a Western diet have very high rates of breast cancer, but the East coast of the USA. is actually the highest I've found.

Gary from algx.iadfw.net at 12:21pm ET
Do you find the highest incidence of breast cancer in those countries consuming greater amounts of dairy products such as the Netherlands, or does the U.S. lead in this disease?

Jane Plant at 12:22pm ET
As far as I can see, the U.S. leads in these diseases, and the U.S. has one of the highest consumptions of dairy products in the world. According to the U.S. statistical department, about 40 percent of the American diet can be made of dairy products. Think of all the dips, ice creams, yogurts, milk, cheese, spreads, and all the hidden dairy ingredients and you can see how this is possible.

Moderator at 12:23pm ET
Leslyn writes: "How can one eliminate dairy products from their diet and not risk osteoporosis?" Jane Plant at 12:24pm ET
This comes up many times, but calcium is available in lots of other foods, especially vegetables and some fruits, and there are many other rich sources, such as tahini. I've been totally dairy-free for seven and a half years, I take no calcium supplements. I follow the diet in my book, and I've got very good bone density, very long, strong, fingernails, and no health problems. I have never felt better in my life!

Fred Falkson from dialup.mindspring.com at 12:24pm ET
Countries like China, Korea, and Thailand also have less red meat and animal fat consumption than the U.S. Do you think this is a factor in the cancer rates?

Jane Plant at 12:26pm ET
Yes, I think it could be, because they have a much higher proportion of their calories from vegetable sources, particularly vegetables and fruits, and that could be an important factor.

The book isn't simply cut out dairy; it's a whole integrated lifestyle program designed to eliminate everything that's been implicated in causing breast cancer and increasing everything that has been shown to be protective against breast cancer.

In the case of China, they have meat cut into tiny little portions, and cooked through very thoroughly. They don't tend to eat big slabs of meat, as we do in the West.

Julie from proxy.aol.com at 12:31pm ET
Do you avoid other food items such as gluten (wheat products)?

Jane Plant at 12:31pm ET
I don't avoid wheat products. I've explained why not in the book. I don't think it's a factor in breast cancer.

Marilyn from proxy.aol.com at 12:32pm ET
I was wondering of you had Type A or Type O blood? Because, according to the work of Dr. Peter D'Adamo, dairy is basically bad for those blood types.

Jane Plant at 12:33pm ET
I have type AB blood, and I'm aware of the idea that dairy can be eaten by only one blood group, but I'm not sure whether the breast cancer statistics are such that it relates to blood type.

Moderator at 12:34pm ET
Chris asks: "What kind of medical therapies did you use in the way of chemotherapy and radiation? Do you agree with conventional medicine along with alternative medicine?"

Jane Plant at 12:35pm ET
Yes, I agree — it is essential to have your conventional medical treatment, and the diet and lifestyle book I've put together is aimed at complementing traditional medicine, not replacing it.

In my own case, I had a radical mastectomy, three further operations, thirty five radiotherapy treatments to the chest wall, I had my ovaries irradiated to induce menopause, and the cancer just kept coming back.

I was into my chemotherapy treatment, which was having no measurable effect on the tumor in my neck, when I decided to try to live like a Chinese person, and it was at that point that my cancer started to go. It disappeared in five weeks.

I had helped 63 other women by the time I wrote the book. They followed my diet, which is no dairy, but as I said, it's more complicated than that.


Moderator at 12:36pm ET
Carol Rowzie asks: "How do we get the food industry to understand the damage that over-consumption of dairy products does to our bodies? Dairy products are in almost all pre-packaged foods and in most fresh prepared recipes. We need to be "over- whelmed" with good alternatives, i.e., soy/other plant based foods.

Given the power of the dairy industry (lobbying, relationship with medical community, etc.), how do we re-educate the public to this very serious issue? Speaking from personal experience, this is a great drain of resources on our health care system and personal lives."

Jane Plant at 12:37pm ET
Well, I've tried to do it by publishing my book and by publicizing the issue as, indeed, have other people. Ultimately, the main weapon we have is our buying power.

If we just stop buying products with dairy in them, and replace them with healthy alternatives, people will start moving out of an industry if nobody wants to buy the products.

I would like to say, I didn't set out to damage the dairy industry, and I would hope they could find some alternative ways to make their products.

[skcin]

No time now, so I skimmed (teehee.) I promise I will read all of it when I actually have time to read & study it, and do a bit of research myself. I will say this - there is no study that definitively absolutely positively links milk to increased rates of cancer or diabetes. Is it possible? Of course. Is it definite? No. And is it the only cause? Probably not - in conjunction with other factors, possibly. Plenty of other things linked to the increase in allergies too.

Who the hell recommends 5-6 servings of dairy a day? :eek: That's ridiculous. I believe the food guide recommends 2 or 3. :shrug:

Yogurt is GOOD for maintaining normal vaginal flora. FYI.

There are several studies showing that soy increases your risk for breast cancer. Am I going to tell someone they're an idiot because they think soy is healthy? Nope. Because it's a theory, not a proven fact. :shrug: I'm not going to stop eating soy, but I'm not going to start eating soy everything either. Just like I don't ingest more than 2 or 3 servings of dairy per day. Everything in moderation. :shrug:

[amber]

No time now, so I skimmed (teehee.) I promise I will read all of it when I actually have time to read & study it, and do a bit of research myself. I will say this - there is no study that definitively absolutely positively links milk to increased rates of cancer or diabetes. Is it possible? Of course. Is it definite? No. And is it the only cause? Probably not - in conjunction with other factors, possibly. Plenty of other things linked to the increase in allergies too.

Who the hell recommends 5-6 servings of dairy a day? :eek: That's ridiculous. I believe the food guide recommends 2 or 3. :shrug:

Yogurt is GOOD for maintaining normal vaginal flora. FYI.

There are several studies showing that soy increases your risk for breast cancer. Am I going to tell someone they're an idiot because they think soy is healthy? Nope. Because it's a theory, not a proven fact. :shrug: I'm not going to stop eating soy, but I'm not going to start eating soy everything either. Just like I don't ingest more than 2 or 3 servings of dairy per day. Everything in moderation. :shrug:

If you ignore all this, remaining willfully uninformed because of what you want to believe, fine. Those studies are pretty conclusive, BTW. If tons of people who don't have dairy have low instances of Cancer and Osteoperosis(among other things), and people who consume lots of dairy have the highest instances...well, to me, ignoring that is like how people ignored global warming for decades "oh, there's no conclusive study to say burning of fossil fuels is causing global warming" :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Seriously. It only makes sense, especially having read about the studies for about 10 years like I have been.
Also, have you considered the fact that the new information available is right, even though it's different then your old information?
Again, I don't care how much dairy you eat, I'm trying to pass the information that it isn't really good for you. People who ignore the overwhelming data of the past few decades that says the same, or try to refute it - I don't get it. I don't want to be right, I want to be the best informed. And, clearly, I am. If something new comes out that goes against what I thought before, and there is a lot of good data to support it, I don't care that I was wrong before, I don't cling to my old ideas because I'm stubborn and that's what I always learned. Or because the new data is contrary to my lifestyle choices.
There are no health benefits to drinking cow's milk, according to my years of research, which is based on scientists and doctor's years of research.
I'm sad that some people actually believe it is good for you. And I want them to know the real story, because lots of people actually want to make the most healthful choice possible. "Moderation" is fine, but not even close to optimal.
And you just admittedly made an uninformed conclusion, you did not read the scientific evidence that I posted. Yet, you stuck to your opinion, intimating that it was informed. How can you know if what I say isn't true, if you haven't seen the data? Just because you learned what you think is true before, and you already knew it? Is that what makes it right? People learn new things every day, things change constantly.
Oh, and BTW, one of the things I posted said yogurt cultures are good for you, but that you should get non dairy yogurt, which is widely available - because it is better for you.

I don't know for how long you have been studying nutrition, or how regularly, but the other day you didn't even know that the meals you were fixing for yourself were too carb heavy, and you needed to add some protein and fiber. But suddenly you are an up to the minute info expert on milk? It's possible, and bless you, but it doesn't logically jibe that you would be. Especially not comparitively.
I'm not saying a small amount of milk/dairy in someone's diet will necessarily cause harm. I'm saying no matter what amount you eat/drink, it doesn't have nutritional value to your body. Will everyone get breast cancer from it? No. But it isn't a healthful choice. Just like eating candybars, or hamburgers, isn't a healthful choice. At best, I would call it neutral. Well, I wouldn't, really, but that's the best I can call it.
I love you and all, I just think the studies are right, and that when people cut dairy from their diet, their bodies significantly benefit in myriad ways. I'm also a person who was vegan once, so I do have some first hand experience.

[carrie721]

interesting stuff, amber. i actually wouldn't terribly mind cutting out dairy. i only get about half a serving a day now (i usually have half a cup of yogurt), so i wouldn't be missing a lot.

also, weight loss count is 8 pounds now. and it's definitely visually noticeable. :thumbsup:

oh, and i am such a dork. i lost my gym card, and had to get it replaced (for $10!). then, i misplaced the replacement, and found my card, only it's the original lost card, and i can't use it! and i can't find my replacement! goddddddd.

[amber]

interesting stuff, amber. i actually wouldn't terribly mind cutting out dairy. i only get about half a serving a day now (i usually have half a cup of yogurt), so i wouldn't be missing a lot.

also, weight loss count is 8 pounds now. and it's definitely visually noticeable. :thumbsup:

oh, and i am such a dork. i lost my gym card, and had to get it replaced (for $10!). then, i misplaced the replacement, and found my card, only it's the original lost card, and i can't use it! and i can't find my replacement! goddddddd.

That is weird. What are you, a jetsetter now, can't keep her cards in place? :p

Congrats on the two more lbs! It's noticeable already? That is great, I'm sure it's very motivating, too.

Yeah, dairy doesn't really have nutrients that are beneficial. I mean, they have nutrients, but are loaded with fat, and also your body may not be able to absorb the nutrients, and the nutrients are those that you can get much betterly from other foods, and they simultaneously contain things that harm your body. Yogurt is the best, but can be way better if you get non dairy yogurt.
I'm suprised you've cut your dairy so much, because I know you've cut your meat as well. But you can really get enough protein without those things. I'm sooo happy for you! :xoxo: (I know, it's dorky to be that happy for you, but still).

I'm glad you said something. I didn't mean to be a biatch, but I've just been reading so much for so long about the detriments of dairy that it frustrates me when people discount that. I've seen so much that it just seems irrefutible. :(
I mean, I been knowing it and reading it and keeping track of the studies since ...1994? About that.

[carrie721]

That is weird. What are you, a jetsetter now, can't keep her cards in place? :p

Congrats on the two more lbs! It's noticeable already? That is great, I'm sure it's very motivating, too.

Yeah, dairy doesn't really have nutrients that are beneficial. I mean, they have nutrients, but are loaded with fat, and also your body may not be able to absorb the nutrients, and the nutrients are those that you can get much betterly from other foods, and they simultaneously contain things that harm your body. Yogurt is the best, but can be way better if you get non dairy yogurt.
I'm suprised you've cut your dairy so much, because I know you've cut your meat as well. But you can really get enough protein without those things. I'm sooo happy for you! :xoxo: (I know, it's dorky to be that happy for you, but still).

I'm glad you said something. I didn't mean to be a biatch, but I've just been reading so much for so long about the detriments of dairy that it frustrates me when people discount that. I've seen so much that it just seems irrefutible. :(
I mean, I been knowing it and reading it and keeping track of the studies since ...1994? About that.

i am such a fool about keeping my **** together ... seriously, i once lost my keys for 4 months. FOUR MONTHS!!!! who does that? someone finally called me because i had my jump drive on my keys, and i cleverly wrote my number on there. i lose things like it's my job. like, the other day, i i couldn't find the keys at work, and i needed to take the trash out. i thought my boss took them home with him, so i just threw the trash over the fence and wrote a note that the keys were missing. then the next day, i went to do laundry, and i checked in the pockets of my work pants, and there were the keys. imagine how sheepish i felt taking those back into work ... not that they don't expect it from me. They Know. :laugh:

yeah, i used to get around 3 servings of dairy, but i decided cheese was too fatty, and i stopped eating cold cereal. i'm still getting enough protein, because my cereal is high in p, i eat a lot of almonds, and i eat an apple & pb every day. oh, and fake meat. i've been eating a lot of that.

[amber]

i am such a fool about keeping my **** together ... seriously, i once lost my keys for 4 months. FOUR MONTHS!!!! who does that? someone finally called me because i had my jump drive on my keys, and i cleverly wrote my number on there. i lose things like it's my job. like, the other day, i i couldn't find the keys at work, and i needed to take the trash out. i thought my boss took them home with him, so i just threw the trash over the fence and wrote a note that the keys were missing. then the next day, i went to do laundry, and i checked in the pockets of my work pants, and there were the keys. imagine how sheepish i felt taking those back into work ... not that they don't expect it from me. They Know. :laugh:

yeah, i used to get around 3 servings of dairy, but i decided cheese was too fatty, and i stopped eating cold cereal. i'm still getting enough protein, because my cereal is high in p, i eat a lot of almonds, and i eat an apple & pb every day. oh, and fake meat. i've been eating a lot of that.

:shocked: :shocked: :shocked: <=== that is in response to your rate of losage. That is kind of weird considering the limited amounts of space you occupy.

:blob2: :blob2: :blob2: <==== That is in response to your excellent dietary choices! I couldn't have done it better myself. And haven't recently, really. :laugh:
Now I totally crave those fake chix patties. Have you tried the spicy ones? I think they are morningstar. Mmmmmmm. Delectable.

[carrie721]

:shocked: :shocked: :shocked: <=== that is in response to your rate of losage. That is kind of weird considering the limited amounts of space you occupy.

:blob2: :blob2: :blob2: <==== That is in response to your excellent dietary choices! I couldn't have done it better myself. And haven't recently, really. :laugh:
Now I totally crave those fake chix patties. Have you tried the spicy ones? I think they are morningstar. Mmmmmmm. Delectable.

the buffalo chix stuff? no, i haven't tried that. but i did get blackbean burgers, and i ate one today with guac. (no bun or anything, just burger & guac). it was delicious. unfortunately, i ran out of guac and salsa all in one day, so i need to go to the organic groc. store tomorrow.

[amber]

the buffalo chix stuff? no, i haven't tried that. but i did get blackbean burgers, and i ate one today with guac. (no bun or anything, just burger & guac). it was delicious. unfortunately, i ran out of guac and salsa all in one day, so i need to go to the organic groc. store tomorrow.

Man, I always run out of guac and salsa. I'm glad you liked the burger. I eat "burgers" occasionally, but am not a huge fan. I'm a medium fan. I mean, I would totally recommend them, I just don't like them as much as other stuff. I have to admit, though, I've never eaten them with just guac. In reality, if I was being more responsible, I would eat more of them. i certainly have eaten my share in the past.
Never tried the black bean. But, I don't order black beans on my burritos, either. Not a favorite. That is one area where I'm kinda bad - lots of beans are on the "most antioxidental" list, but I don't like to eat beans that much. Lentils are my favorite. I don't like rice much, either. I order my burritos with no, or light, beans and rice. And then, I never want the black beans. Only pinto. Which are better for you, but not when refried. It's all very complex, dont'cha know. :laugh:

Anyhoo, blah blah, you rock, etc. :blob2: :blob1:

I'm sorry to be so effervescent, but you are kicking so much ass that it is inspiring.

[bikerchic]

There is no way I could possibly read all those studies you posted Amber but I did read some of the highlites on milk and cancer. It just makes me wonder though, if cows milk and meat (and I'm not saying "you" said anything about their meat) is not meant to be consumed by humans then why the hell were they put on this earth? To look pretty in the fields?

IMO, I believe cancer can mainly be blamed from the carcinogens in everything from hair products and makeup to cleaning products to some foods that we eat (including milk and meat and that is why organic is the way to go).

[carrie721]

There is no way I could possibly read all those studies you posted Amber but I did read some of the highlites on milk and cancer. It just makes me wonder though, if cows milk and meat (and I'm not saying "you" said anything about their meat) is not meant to be consumed by humans then why the hell were they put on this earth? To look pretty in the fields?

IMO, I believe cancer can mainly be blamed from the carcinogens in everything from hair products and makeup to cleaning products to some foods that we eat (including milk and meat and that is why organic is the way to go).

well, there are plenty of animals that it's not safe/feasible for us to use for food purposes. that doesn't mean they have no purpose on earth. we don't drink chipmunk milk, or eat chipmunk meat, but i don't really question their existence because of it. :shrug: cow's milk is meant to be consumed by baby cows, and their meat is supposed to be consumed by other natural predators - including humans, just not in the vast quantities we're consuming them now.

cancer can definitely be linked to the carcinogens in those things you listed, and organic is definitely better, but i find the stories of people who cut out dairy & became healthier to be very compelling.

[carrie721]

Man, I always run out of guac and salsa. I'm glad you liked the burger. I eat "burgers" occasionally, but am not a huge fan. I'm a medium fan. I mean, I would totally recommend them, I just don't like them as much as other stuff. I have to admit, though, I've never eaten them with just guac. In reality, if I was being more responsible, I would eat more of them. i certainly have eaten my share in the past.
Never tried the black bean. But, I don't order black beans on my burritos, either. Not a favorite. That is one area where I'm kinda bad - lots of beans are on the "most antioxidental" list, but I don't like to eat beans that much. Lentils are my favorite. I don't like rice much, either. I order my burritos with no, or light, beans and rice. And then, I never want the black beans. Only pinto. Which are better for you, but not when refried. It's all very complex, dont'cha know. :laugh:

Anyhoo, blah blah, you rock, etc. :blob2: :blob1:

I'm sorry to be so effervescent, but you are kicking so much ass that it is inspiring.

aw shucks. :xoxo:

[skcin]

If you ignore all this, remaining willfully uninformed because of what you want to believe, fine. Those studies are pretty conclusive, BTW. If tons of people who don't have dairy have low instances of Cancer and Osteoperosis(among other things), and people who consume lots of dairy have the highest instances...well, to me, ignoring that is like how people ignored global warming for decades "oh, there's no conclusive study to say burning of fossil fuels is causing global warming" :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Seriously. It only makes sense, especially having read about the studies for about 10 years like I have been.
Also, have you considered the fact that the new information available is right, even though it's different then your old information?
Again, I don't care how much dairy you eat, I'm trying to pass the information that it isn't really good for you. People who ignore the overwhelming data of the past few decades that says the same, or try to refute it - I don't get it. I don't want to be right, I want to be the best informed. And, clearly, I am. If something new comes out that goes against what I thought before, and there is a lot of good data to support it, I don't care that I was wrong before, I don't cling to my old ideas because I'm stubborn and that's what I always learned. Or because the new data is contrary to my lifestyle choices.
There are no health benefits to drinking cow's milk, according to my years of research, which is based on scientists and doctor's years of research.
I'm sad that some people actually believe it is good for you. And I want them to know the real story, because lots of people actually want to make the most healthful choice possible. "Moderation" is fine, but not even close to optimal.
And you just admittedly made an uninformed conclusion, you did not read the scientific evidence that I posted. Yet, you stuck to your opinion, intimating that it was informed. How can you know if what I say isn't true, if you haven't seen the data? Just because you learned what you think is true before, and you already knew it? Is that what makes it right? People learn new things every day, things change constantly.
Oh, and BTW, one of the things I posted said yogurt cultures are good for you, but that you should get non dairy yogurt, which is widely available - because it is better for you.

I don't know for how long you have been studying nutrition, or how regularly, but the other day you didn't even know that the meals you were fixing for yourself were too carb heavy, and you needed to add some protein and fiber. But suddenly you are an up to the minute info expert on milk? It's possible, and bless you, but it doesn't logically jibe that you would be. Especially not comparitively.
I'm not saying a small amount of milk/dairy in someone's diet will necessarily cause harm. I'm saying no matter what amount you eat/drink, it doesn't have nutritional value to your body. Will everyone get breast cancer from it? No. But it isn't a healthful choice. Just like eating candybars, or hamburgers, isn't a healthful choice. At best, I would call it neutral. Well, I wouldn't, really, but that's the best I can call it.
I love you and all, I just think the studies are right, and that when people cut dairy from their diet, their bodies significantly benefit in myriad ways. I'm also a person who was vegan once, so I do have some first hand experience.


Dude. :shocked: Relax. Where in my post did I tell you that the studies you posted were untrue? I told you that I didn't read through them completely yet, and that I need to look into it further. I never said I'm not open to learning new or different things. After I'm done reading everything thoroughly and do some research of my own, I'll post again.

And remind me never to ask you for any dietary advice again, since apparently you're going to bring it up later & imply that I'm ignorant. You're awfully arrogant about it all considering you've been overweight a time or two yourself & continue to make some bad health choices at times. :shrug: We're all only human.

[JazmenFlowers]

I'm also a person who was vegan once, so I do have some first hand experience.
I had a whole group of friends in college who were vegan and lived the whole lifestyle too. it was really, really hard. they were all overweight too...really overweight. I never quite understood that myself, but I guess maybe it's all the pasta and bread they ate :shrug:. in any event, I've got some really funny memories of trying to go out to eat with them.

oh, and every single one of them would eat an animal product at least once in a while and tell me not to tell anyone...:rolleyes:

[bikerchic]

well, there are plenty of animals that it's not safe/feasible for us to use for food purposes. that doesn't mean they have no purpose on earth. we don't drink chipmunk milk, or eat chipmunk meat, but i don't really question their existence because of it. :shrug: cow's milk is meant to be consumed by baby cows, and their meat is supposed to be consumed by other natural predators - including humans, just not in the vast quantities we're consuming them now.

cancer can definitely be linked to the carcinogens in those things you listed, and organic is definitely better, but i find the stories of people who cut out dairy & became healthier to be very compelling.

In some countries they do eat chipmunk and if we didn't eat cows and other animals the world would be over run with them. If a cow's milk is only for their (one) calf, then why do they have 4 teats? For mass production perhaps?

[carrie721]

In some countries they do eat chipmunk and if we didn't eat cows and other animals the world would be over run with them. If a cow's milk is only for their (one) calf, then why do they have 4 teats? For mass production perhaps?

i'm sure there are some people in this world who have eaten chipmunk. i'm talking about on a large scale. also, if you could provide info on where they are eaten, i'd appreciate it, since a quick google search turned up nothing for me.

it's really odd to me to think that something may have evolved a certain way for the express purpose of mass-production, so i don't really know what to say to that. humans have two breasts, but our milk is not mass-produced. and if milk is so good for us to drink, then shouldn't we be drinking human milk our whole lives?

i think you contradict yourself - you say if we didn't hunt animals, we would be overrun by them, but then you say it's okay (and even, nature intended for us) to mass-produce them.

[SuzeQuze]

For those interested in a summary of research, here are a couple of good Q & As from drweil.com. He doesn't seem to have a radical opinion against all dairy, just that you should avoid it if you have a family history of eczema, asthma, bronchitis, sinusitis, or autoimmune disorders.

Q: Why not drink milk?

A: Updated on 3/30/2005

The notion that milk is good for all of us throughout life has been fostered by the dairy industry. Except for people of northern European origin, most adults worldwide can't digest lactose, the natural sugar in milk. This is because as we mature, our bodies stop making the enzyme that breaks it down. As a result, many may develop gas, cramps and/or diarrhea whenever milk is consumed.

But lactose intolerance isn't the only problem with milk and milk products. The milk protein, casein, can irritate the immune system and stimulate mucus production, worsening allergy symptoms. This is why milk consumption is associated with recurrent childhood ear infections, eczema, chronic bronchitis, asthma, and sinus conditions. Even those who are not allergic to milk, like people who have autoimmune diseases or digestive problems, may find that their symptoms improve when they eliminate milk and milk products.

Substituting soy or rice milk for cow's milk isn't as simple as it sounds. Rice milk contains little protein and for that reason is not a good milk substitute for children, unless you add other protein sources to their diets. Soy milk is protein-rich and can work well as a milk substitute, but you may have to experiment with different brands to find one with a taste you like. Although soy milk is high in calcium, it doesn't provide as much as cow's milk so look for a calcium-fortified brand. I also recommend that you buy organic soy products and look for soy milk brands that do not contain the thickening agent carrageenan, a seaweed derivative, which I do not view as safe. If you're watching your weight, choose from among the many available low-fat products.

Andrew Weil, M.D.

http://www.drweil.com/u/QA/QA182741/

Q: Does drinking milk lead to breast cancer?

A: (Published 03/25/2005)

Evidence connecting milk consumption to breast cancer is contradictory, but results of a recent study from Denmark suggest that it may play a role in the increasing incidence of the disease during the past 50 years. In a study involving more than 117,000 women, researchers from the Statens Serum Institut found that height is a risk factor for breast cancer, particularly when it stems from a growth spurt between the ages of eight and 14. In Japan, an increase in women’s average heights over the last 50 years may be related to milk consumption. During that time breast cancer incidence doubled from 40 to 80 cases per 100,000 women. The findings were published in the October 14, 2004, issue of the New England Journal of Medicine. Commenting on the results in the same issue, two experts from Harvard Medical School noted that milk consumption increases circulating levels of insulin-like growth factor 1, a growth hormone associated with higher stature. It isn’t known yet exactly how this might contribute to childhood growth and breast cancer risk. But if milk drinking is to blame for the increased incidence of breast cancer, the amount consumed during childhood could be the key, not the amount adult women are drinking today. To confuse matters, an earlier study had suggested that the vitamin D and calcium women get by consuming low-fat dairy products, including skim or low-fat milk lower the risk of breast cancer before menopause but not afterward. These findings came from data drawn from the famed Nurses Health Study, which began in 1976 and includes more than 120,000 nurses in 11 states. In 2002 Harvard researchers published an analysis of information from more than 88,600 of the women showing that consumption of dairy products - either before or after menopause - had no effect one way or the other on the breast cancer risk among postmenopausal women. The study was published in the September 4, 2002, issue of the Journal of the National Cancer Institute.

Another study, from Norway, published in 2001 also suggested that milk consumption was protective. Data from more than 48,000 premenopausal women researchers showed that childhood milk consumption (regardless of the type of milk and its fat content) was associated with a lower breast cancer risk among women aged 34 to 39 but not among women in their forties. Adult milk consumption also seemed to lower the risk. Among women who drank more than three glasses of milk per day, risk was lowered by about half. The study was published in the Sept. 15, 2001 issue of the International Journal of Cancer.

I recommend against using cow's milk and products made from milk if you have a personal or family history of eczema, asthma, bronchitis, sinusitis, or autoimmunity. If you do drink milk, I urge you to buy only organic brands without the residues of antibiotics and hormones found in conventional brands. In my opinion, those hormone residues may be the factor responsible for increased risks of cancer, especially hormonally driven cancers.

Andrew Weil, M.D.

http://www.drweil.com/u/QA/QA352296/

[hayley]

Dude. :shocked: Relax. Where in my post did I tell you that the studies you posted were untrue? I told you that I didn't read through them completely yet, and that I need to look into it further. I never said I'm not open to learning new or different things. After I'm done reading everything thoroughly and do some research of my own, I'll post again.

And remind me never to ask you for any dietary advice again, since apparently you're going to bring it up later & imply that I'm ignorant. You're awfully arrogant about it all considering you've been overweight a time or two yourself & continue to make some bad health choices at times. :shrug: We're all only human.

:eek: :thumbsup: :blob2:

[JazmenFlowers]

all this talk of milk. I hate milk really unless it's in cereal. I drink 1% if possible, but I prefer soy milk...and even then I'm not a huge teater eater.

[carrie721]

I'm not a huge teater eater.

:rolleyes: trust me, we know ... :lol:

[bikerchic]

i'm sure there are some people in this world who have eaten chipmunk. i'm talking about on a large scale. also, if you could provide info on where they are eaten, i'd appreciate it, since a quick google search turned up nothing for me.

it's really odd to me to think that something may have evolved a certain way for the express purpose of mass-production, so i don't really know what to say to that. humans have two breasts, but our milk is not mass-produced. and if milk is so good for us to drink, then shouldn't we be drinking human milk our whole lives?

i think you contradict yourself - you say if we didn't hunt animals, we would be overrun by them, but then you say it's okay (and even, nature intended for us) to mass-produce them.

I'm just saying that anyone who believes that animals were not put on this earth to eat is absurd? It's just part of the food chain. Women have two breasts for when they do have more then one child to feed and its absolutely ridiculous to think that we could live off human milk all of our life. and when I say mass production, I mean milking more then one teat at a time, that's all.

[carrie721]

I'm just saying that anyone who believes that animals were not put on this earth to eat is absurd? It's just part of the food chain. Women have two breasts for when they do have more then one child to feed and its absolutely ridiculous to think that we could live off human milk all of our life. and when I say mass production, I mean milking more then one teat at a time, that's all.

i never said that animals weren't here to eat! but the food chain doesn't say that every animal is here for humans to eat. yes, we're at the top of the food chain, but that doesn't mean that everything else nature produces is good for us.

[amber]

Dude. :shocked: Relax. Where in my post did I tell you that the studies you posted were untrue? I told you that I didn't read through them completely yet, and that I need to look into it further. I never said I'm not open to learning new or different things. After I'm done reading everything thoroughly and do some research of my own, I'll post again.

And remind me never to ask you for any dietary advice again, since apparently you're going to bring it up later & imply that I'm ignorant. You're awfully arrogant about it all considering you've been overweight a time or two yourself & continue to make some bad health choices at times. :shrug: We're all only human.

What I objected to was you saying I was wrong without reading what I posted. Simple as that. Why would you do that with no basis?

Yeah, because I make bad choices doesn't mean I don't know what choices I should be making. It also doesn't lessen the amount of research and education I have about it. All it says is that I don't have as much willpower as I should.

And, I brought up the nutritional advice because you suddenly seemingly knew that milk was "nutritious", and I was questioning the basis for your knowledge. I wasn't throwing it in your face, I was logically questioning whether you could know so much about milk, considering what you didn't know before.

So maybe you should have "relaxed" before you jumped to the conclusion that I was wrong about milk, on the basis of your limited knowledge.

Theresa - there are millions of things on the earth that weren't "put here" for human consumption. We're just another mammal here, in fact, nothing was "put here" specifically for us. We can, like other animals, plants, bugs, fish, etc. eat certain things on the earth. Also, cows were not domesticated by humans until well after original evolvement - ie, not part of the diet we originally evolved to eat. Also, I think it's absurd to say that humans have to eat animals. Or that anything at all was put here "for humans". We just happened to evolve eating certain things that were here - most of them way, way, way, before humans. After babies don't drink human milk anymore, they are supposed to be on increasingly solid foods, not cow milk. And, way back, humans often breastfed for 3 or more years. So, they didn't need milk from another animal.

[skcin]

OK, I've thoroughly read all the info Amber provided. Definitely interesting, and something to think about when making dietary choices. Is this article from a Vegan website? Just wondering, I didn't see the source. I am not going to ignore the things I've just read, and I will be sure to not eat too much dairy after reading all of these theories. Considering my usual intake is a splash of 1% milk 4-5 days a week & some cheese/yogurt every day, I rarely eat even the recommended 2-3 servings anyway, so I'm not really that worried.

I think it's great that people are doing research to find out exactly what's good for us & what's not, and question older outdated info. I personally take it with a grain of salt. So may studies say the opposite of other studies - hard to decide for sure which study is the best or most accurate. Apparently, the only thing we can honestly eat without fear are completely organic raw fresh veggies. Too much of anything else can be unhealthy, and this obviously includes dairy. Point taken.

I'd like to comment on a few things. Not trying to dispute any of the info presented, just some thoughts:

Cow's Milk
Updated: March 16, 2005

Milk and other dairy products are included in many vegetarian diets. Dairy is a rich source of calcium, vitamin B12, vitamin D, and other nutrients. It has been a part of many cultures for centuries, especially in Northern Europe. For religious Hindus, milk is considered sacred.

Yet the majority of the world's peoples do not come from cultures that have a history of dairy consumption. These people often have problems digesting it. And with the advent of modern mechanized dairy production, milk may not be as pure as it once was.

What follows is an in depth overview of some of the potential problems associated with dairy, and a look at the alternatives.

Sections below:
Lactose Intolerance
Milk fat
Allergies
Osteoporosis
Yogurt
Iron deficiency in infants
Ovarian cancer
Diabetes in children
Women & dairy
Stress, antibiotics, mastitis, and pus
Non-dairy calcium sources
Soy milk as a healthy alternative

Is drinking milk natural?

Human beings are the only species (other than house cats) to consume milk past childhood. We are also the only species to consume the milk of another species. Yet, at about the age of four, most people around the world begin to lose the ability to digest lactose, the carbohydrate found in milk. This results in a condition known as lactose intolerance that causes a range of unpleasant abdominal symptoms, including stomach cramps, flatulence and diarrhea.

Lactose intolerance is a reality for 75% of the world's population. In Canada, while many adult Caucasians have the ability to digest lactose, a large number of First Nations People, Asians, Africans and people of Jewish ancestry are lactose deficient.1

Even though consuming dairy is unnatural and problematic for many people, Canada's Food Guide recommends 2–4 servings per day, and the US Food Guide Pyramid recommends 2-3 servings. One serving is defined as 1 cup of milk, 2 slices of cheese or 3/4 cup of yogurt.



Humans are the only species to do a bunch of things. Eating cooked food comes to mind, but I'm not going to stop doing that.

And yes, the majority of the world's pop. is at least mildly lactose intolerant. That's not because it's bad necessarily, it's because it may not be available to them, therefore their bodies can't process it properly. The people that I know who are medically diagnosed as lactose intolerant simply don't eat dairy, or they eat only what they can tolerate. Of course if something makes you sick to your stomach, then don't eat it - seems like common sense to me. Only about 15% of the Caucasian pop. is lactose intolerant, btw.


Whole cow's milk is a high-fat fluid, designed by nature to turn a 60–70 lb (27–30 kg) calf into a 300–600 lb (135–275 kg) cow in one year.

High-fat dairy products such as cheese, butter and cream contain saturated fat. Saturated fat is the most important dietary factor involved in raising blood cholesterol levels. The consumption of high-fat dairy products has also been found to cause atherosclerosis, heart disease and stroke. Finland which has a death rate from heart disease that is among the highest in the world, also has one of the highest rates of dairy product consumption.2

Low-fat milk and cheese products are still significantly high in total fat, saturated fat and cholesterol. For example, 2% milk has become much more popular than homogenized milk, yet it still derives one third of its total calories from fat. Skim milk mozzarella with approximately 15% milk-fat is considered a low-fat cheese, yet a 1-ounce slice contains 5 grams of fat, totaling 56% calories from fat! So don't be fooled by the "skim milk" label.

The wide range of skimmed milk products available in grocery stores reflects health concerns over high-fat dairy products. But for many people, low-fat dairy products may still be an unacceptable alternative.



Aren't diets in Finland higher in fat in general? High fat dairy, cheeses, meats, etc. How about the availability of fresh veggies? And perhaps people are less physically active than in other parts of the world? I'm not in any way saying that the intake of high fat dairy has nothing to do with the increased rates, I just think there may be other factors involved as well. And I noticed that although this article explains that low fat/skim products aren't that low in fat, they stop short of saying they've been shown to cause heart disease, etc.


Low-fat dairy products linked to heightened allergies

The high protein content of low-fat dairy products is actually more allergenic than dairy products with a high-fat content.3 Dairy products are one of the leading causes of food allergies and food sensitivities causing allergic responses in people of all ages, especially infants and young children. It is estimated that 1–7% of infants are allergic to cow's milk protein. Infants who react to milk also have a greater likelihood of developing allergies to other foods.4

Allergies to dairy products can cause a wide range of symptoms including irritability, restlessness, hyperactivity, depression, abdominal pain, cramps or bloating, gas, diarrhea, bad breath, headaches, lack of energy, constipation, poor appetite, mal-absorption of nutrients, nasal stuffiness, runny nose sinusitis, asthma, shortness of breath, rashes, and eczema.5



I would like to know who the hell is recommending cow's milk for infants?!?! Certainly not pediatricians, at least not for the past 15-20 years. They can't tolerate it, and breast milk is much better. Formula fortified with iron is the second choice. In my professional & personal experience I've never heard anyone tell a mother to give her baby cow's milk.

The allergy link in kids is concerning, although this article isn't very clear to me. I know from my research that there are several possible reasons for the increased incidence of allergies (esp. to foods) but nobody has determined any one cause. Obviously, milk is a possible contributing factor & I hope this is investigated further.


Osteoporosis & the milk connection

North America has one of the highest consumptions of dairy products, and also the highest incidence of osteoporosis – a disease of brittle bones formed through the loss of calcium. The dairy lobby has many campaigns and advertisements encouraging people to consume large quantities of dairy products to ward off this dreaded disease later in life. But that's not the whole story.

Regardless of how much calcium you take in, the amount your body can actually absorb and retain matters more.

The high animal protein intake typical of North American diets can make it difficult to retain calcium. Digesting animal protein creates an acidic environment in the body. To neutralize the acid, the body may rob calcium from the bones. Years of this pattern can contribute in osteoporosis later in life.6

A study published in 2001, found that "elderly women with a high dietary ratio of animal to vegetable protein intake have more rapid neck bone loss and a greater risk of hip fracture than do those with a low ratio. This suggests that an increase in vegetable protein intake and a decrease in animal protein intake may decrease bone loss..." Several studies have found that "in comparison with animal protein, soy protein decreases calcium excretion, a result of the lower sulfur amino acid content of soy protein."7

To prevent osteoporosis it is also important to get enough Vitamin D, avoid smoking and limit coffee and alcohol. Weight-bearing exercise such as running, dancing and walking is especially helpful. (see Key Nutrients for more information on vitamin D).



I do agree that too much focus has been put on "milk builds strong bones" over the years. Evidence shows that it is beneficial in children as far as preventing osteoporosis later in life, but when you're older it doesn't really do squat. Many people aren't aware of this & think that if they suddenly start chugging milk when they're 40, they'll be fine. Uh-uh.

But just because the body can only absorb so much doesn't mean they should cut out all dairy, IMO. And did the study look at the fact that we drink much more soda & eat much more fast food here in North America? Studies also show that soda can severely deplete calcium stores as well as decrease bone density and more fast food seems to = obesity which seems to = decreased activity/exercise, all of which contribute to the development of osteoporosis.

Again, I'm not disputing or trying to minimize the information, just pointing out that there may be more to it than just drinking milk alone. In other words, woman shouldn't completely cut dairy out of their diet because they heard it might not be great for their bones, but continue to lead a sedentary lifestyle & chug pop. They need to look at their life & their diet as a whole - there's no quick fix.


Yogurt

Yogurt is the healthiest dairy product because of its live bacterial enzyme cultures that foster a healthy colon, and even may lower the risk of colon cancer. The culturing process makes yogurt more digestible than milk. The live active cultures create lactase, the enzyme lactose-intolerant people lack. Some yogurts are pasteurized again after the fermentation process. This kills the beneficial bacteria cultures and decreases many of the health benefits. Check the label, and look for the brands with the simplest ingredients. It is best to avoid frozen yogurt – most brands have no live cultures, are high in fat (some as fatty as ice cream), and the low-fat versions are usually high in sugar. An average non-fat serving of frozen yogurt contains approximately seven teaspoons of sugar.

Note: all yogurts have the high protein content and related problems mentioned above. Non-dairy soy yogurts containing live cultures are available.



I understand some people may think that frozen yogurt is good for them just because it says "yogurt." I am not one of them. :D Read labels, people. I'm surprised to see that this article isn't really that hard on yogurt, since someone once told me I may as well eat a bunch of sugar instead. :shrug: It is important to eat ygurt that contains active cultures (esp. acidophyllus.) Also - ladies - if you're put on antibiotics for any infection, eating a cup of yogurt every day while you're taking them usually prevents yeast infections from developing.


Iron deficiency in infants

According to Frank Oski, the late Chairman of Pediatrics at Johns Hopkins Medical School, "Drinking large quantities of cow's milk has long been recognized to produce iron-deficiency anemia in infants... Cow's milk contains less than 1 mg of iron per quart. Very little of this iron is absorbed from the intestinal tract because other constituents of the milk bind with the iron... Many infants drink 1-2 quarts of milk per day. This tends to satisfy their hunger and they are left with very little appetite for the necessary iron-containing foods."8 Breast milk is the best source of iron for infants.



Again with the infants. Doctors do not recommend cow's milk for infants. Neither does the cow/dairy industry or the USDA or any other agency in the U.S.


Ovarian cancer

Ovarian cancer is more common in Northern Europe than in Asian populations and the consumption of milk products may be the reason. Studies have found that there is a higher risk of ovarian cancer in women who consume lactose (sugar in milk). This was the conclusion of a study published in 2004, that tracked 80,326 participants in the Nurses' Health Study. A Swedish study of 61,084 women found that high intakes of lactose and dairy products, particularly milk, are associated with an increased risk of serious ovarian cancer but not other subtypes of ovarian cancer.9



I'm trying to find the portion of the Nurse's Health Study that shows this, but I'm having a hard time finding it. As far as the study in Sweden, I'm curious to know if other factors were looked at (other dietary factors, esp. fat, smoking, hormone levels, never having kids vs. having several, etc.) Very interesting, though, I hadn't heard that before. The incidence of ovarian Ca is pretty low in relation to other cancers, but obviously if you have other risk factors you may want to limit dairy.


Cow's milk & diabetes in children

Several studies have linked cow's milk to diabetes in children. Something in milk (possibly bovine serum albumin) may cause an immune reaction in diabetic children leading to the destruction of the body's insulin-producing cells. Breast-fed infants who are not fed cow's milk seem to have a measure of protection against diabetes. Avoiding cow's milk may delay or prevent diabetes in susceptible individuals. A 2003 study of 4,701 ten to sixteen year-old adolescents from 11 European countries found that cow's milk and animal product consumption were associated with higher rates of type 1 diabetes when Icelandic data was excluded.10



I'd like to try & find more info on the specifics of the study. I notice it says "were associated with" not "causes." By "animal product" does that mean only dairy, or meat as well? If it includes meat, then theoretically the diet would be higher in fat than non-meat eaters, and they may be overweight because of that, which has long been thought to increase the risk for development of IDDM (Insulin Dependent Diabetes, used to be called Juvenile Diabetes.) If the correlation between dairy and IDDM is strong enough, this is HUGE. It could help in the diagnosis or even prevention of diabetes. :nod:

*Theresa - you force fed Dean 20 servings of milk every day, didn't you?!?!*


Women & dairy

According to gynecologist, Christiane Northrum, "Stopping dairy food often improves menstrual cramps, endometriosis pain, allergies, sinusitis and even recurrent vaginitis." Other problems associated with dairy food may include: benign breast conditions, chronic vaginal discharge, acne, fibroids, and chronic intestinal upset. "I can't help but think that there might be some correlation between over stimulation of the cow's mammary glands and subsequent over stimulation of our own, resulting in benign breast conditions."13



I'd like to know this 1 GYN's sources. Is this just her opinion? I'll be posting a study shortly that seems to dispute some of her claims.


Stress, antibiotics, mastitis, and pus

People who regard milk as "the perfect food" rarely think about milk as a commercial product – prone to the hazards of mass-production. John Robbins, author of May All Be Fed, puts it well; "The modern-day Bessie is now bred, fed, medicated, inseminated, and manipulated for a single purpose – maximum milk production at a minimum cost."

In order to produce milk, a dairy cow must give birth. To maximize their milk supply they are artificially inseminated every year, meaning they are pregnant for a physically demanding 9 months out of every 12. Their calves are traumatically taken from them shortly after birth. The resulting surplus of calves feeds the veal industry.

With genetic manipulation and intensive production technologies, Canadian cows produce an average of 9,519 kg of milk per year (2003) — seven times more than they would produce naturally. When their milk production wanes after about four years, dairy cows are sent to slaughter where their worn out bodies are ground up into hamburger.

These unnatural conditions make the modern dairy cow highly prone to stress and disease.

The most damaging stress-related disease is mastitis (an inflammation of the udders). It reduces milk yield and directly affects milk quality by altering composition and increasing the somatic cell count (pus). The National Mastitis Council estimates that it costs about $200 per cow per year on the average dairy farm. In Quebec, mastitis is the second-leading cause of culling.11

Antibiotics, mostly common penicillin, are given to cows for treatment of mastitis. Cows are not supposed to be milked for 48 hours after receiving penicillin. When this precaution is not followed the penicillin appears in the milk in small amounts.12

In 1993, Food and Drug Administration in the United States approved the use of a synthetic growth hormone, rBGH (also known as rBST). This genetically engineered hormone, so far banned in Canada and Europe, has no therapeutic value but to boost milk production. This can cause additional stress, and more frequent bouts of mastitis.

Please see the article I'll post shortly on the "organic" and "free range" controversy.

[amber]

I give up. :shrug: I see now it's no use. But at least you read those articles.

[skcin]

So maybe you should have "relaxed" before you jumped to the conclusion that I was wrong about milk, on the basis of your limited knowledge.



Please show me where exactly I said you were wrong about milk. Because I never said that. Maybe you thought I did, but I did't.

[skcin]

I give up. :shrug: I see now it's no use.

Why? I'm just throwing out some other info, so people can make non-biased judgements. What's the problem? Why can you question things, but I can't? If I posted a bunch of one sided info about milk being the best food ever, I certainly would expect people to disagree, and welcome differences of opinion & more information & arguments against my opinion.

[hayley]

I give up. :shrug: I see now it's no use. But at least you read those articles.

You give up what? She read your articles and is forming her own opinion about it. Which is all your loud mouth is giving- your opinion. What more can one ask?

[amber]

Why? I'm just throwing out some other info, so people can make non-biased judgements. What's the problem? Why can you question things, but I can't? If I posted a bunch of one sided info about milk being the best food ever, I certainly would expect people to disagree, and welcome differences of opinion & more information & arguments against my opinion.

"I will say this - there is no study that definitively absolutely positively links milk to increased rates of cancer or diabetes. Is it possible? Of course. Is it definite? No."

This is your opinion that I disagree with, and also the part where you said you though milk was "fine in moderation." Also, I don't think 2-3 servings of dairy a day is 'moderation'. The food pyramid does, but the food pyramid is lame.
Again, ignoring so much data, to me, is remiss. Just previously with my articles, you didn't believe them, questioned them, etc. I have read about 1000 more studies that have the same, or similar conclusions. But I see now that that would not sway you either. So, if you don't believe all the data, for years and years, by scientists and doctors and nutritionists, then I really can't say much more - I think, judging by your responses to what I posted, that it is somewhat futile. :shrug: So, that's fine. I really can't do much more than provide massive amounts of data to convince you, and it hasn't, so whatever. I give up.

I still maintain that milk is never a healthy food choice. It may not kill you if you don't drink much, but it might, and if you cut out dairy, your body would be much more healthy.

[amber]

You give up what? She read your articles and is forming her own opinion about it. Which is all your loud mouth is giving- your opinion. What more can one ask?

I give up thinking that any data I provide will sway her opinion. I wasn't giving my opinion, I was giving data from other people's studies.
Once again you pop in to upbraid me in a conversation you had no interest in before. Funny how that works. :woohoo: Ooo, and you called me a name, too! It must be my birthday.

[skcin]

I guess I shouldn't post these now, since these studies show a differing opinion. But I took the time to find out some info so dammit, I'm posting them. Ignore them, if you wish. :shrug: Some parts of these agree with portions of the information Amber posted, btw.

I'm not out to attack her or her information, just providing some different information. I think people should be aware of all factors - positive and negative, proven and theorized, old and new - so they can make informed decisions about what they want to eat. If you never want to eat dairy again, that's great. I hope you make it a point to get calcium for another source. If you decide to eat more dairy after reading all of this, I'm a bit perplexed, to be honest. But hey, your decision.

Calcium and vitamin D could help prevent PMS
By Betsy Querna
6/14/05
Nearly every woman dreads that time of the month, just before her period, when her insides cramp up, her head hurts, and the smallest misstep can incite anger or tears. Studies have shown that calcium supplements can sometimes make PMS symptoms go away quicker, but researchers from the University of Massachusetts, Harvard University, and the University of Iowa looked to see if calcium and vitamin D might stop PMS altogether.
What the researchers wanted to know: Do calcium and vitamin D prevent PMS?
What they did: Women who were enrolled in the Nurse's Health Study II, a large study of female registered nurses that has been going on since 1989, were eligible for this study. These women periodically completed food surveys that asked, in addition to other things, how often they ate calcium-rich foods like spinach and dairy, and how often they took calcium or vitamin D supplements. The researchers mailed some of the women a two-page questionnaire asking whether they had PMS symptoms. After they got the questionnaires back, they looked at the dietary habits of the 1,057 women who reported symptoms and the 1,068 who did not.
What they found: Women who had more vitamin D and calcium in their diets had less of a risk of PMS than other women. Women who got the vitamin D equivalent of at least seven cups of milk (nearly twice the recommended daily allowance) were 40 percent less likely to have symptoms of PMS than women who got the vitamin D equivalent of one cup of milk or less each day. Similarly, women who got the amount of calcium from food that was equal to at least 4 1/2 cups of milk (about 1 1/2 times the recommended daily allowance) were 30 percent less likely to suffer from PMS than women who took in less than half a cup of milk (or that equivalent in calcium) per day. Calcium intake from supplements was not associated with the risk of having PMS symptoms, though there may have been too few people in this group to adequately evaluate that risk.
What it means to you: When it's that time of the month, drink your milk, eat your spinach, and pack a yogurt in your lunch. Eating foods rich in calcium and vitamin D could help prevent PMS. Researchers say they're not sure exactly why, but it probably has something to do with how those nutrients fluctuate with changing levels of hormones. While there's no guarantee that you're not going to need a hot water bottle, some ibuprofen, or a bar of chocolate, drinking milk could help keep those monthly pains away.
Caveats: This study relied completely on women's self-reporting of their PMS symptoms and food intake habits. They asked the women to think back over several years; it's likely that some of the women did not remember accurately. But there's no reason to think that the women in either group would be less likely to remember than the other.

Organic milk health claims not supported by science
Tuesday, August 15th, 2006

Guest contributor: Karen Collins, M.S., R.D., C.D.N.
Karen Collins holds a B.S. degree from Purdue and an M.S. degree from Cornell, both in nutrition. When she’s not writing or speaking, she conducts a private nutrition practice in Jamestown, New York.
Demand for organic milk, which can sell for up to double the cost of other milk, is booming. Deciding whether to spend the extra money is not as clear-cut a decision as some suggest. People may turn to organic milk for health benefits, or environmental and animal rights’ issues. When evaluating the health claims, thus far, research does not support a health advantage of organic over conventional milk for any segment of the population.
The U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) requires four characteristics to define milk as organic, and confusion abounds about each.
Bovine growth hormone. Milk that is labeled “USDA Organic” must come from cows that have not been treated with bovine growth hormone (BGH) to increase milk production. People who focus on this goal express concern that hormones in milk could raise the risk of hormone-related cancers, or lead to higher levels of an insulin-like growth factor (IGF-1) linked with cancer.
However, BGH is a protein hormone, which means that if any does appear in milk, enzymes and acid in our digestive tract destroy it. Dale Bauman, a professor of animal science at Cornell University, emphasizes that if IGF-1 is slightly higher in milk from BGH-treated cows, it represents a tiny fraction of the IGF we all produce each day. Bauman reports that we would have to drink 95 quarts of milk to equal the IGF-1 we make daily in our saliva and other digestive tract secretions.
We need to differentiate between levels of IGF in our blood, which some studies link to a possible increase in cancer risk, and levels of IGF in our food. Several organic-related web sites refer to a study in which vegans (who eat no animal products) showed 13 percent lower IGF than non-vegans.
However, a closer look at that study shows that milk consumption was not related to blood levels of IGF. Research shows high blood levels of IGF are linked with overweight, lack of exercise, and diets too high in saturated fat, refined carbohydrates or total calories.
Antibiotics. A second characteristic of organic milk is that these cows are not treated with antibiotics. If a cow in an organic herd does need to be treated with antibiotics, she is not returned to the herd for a period of 12 months. Yet in conventional herds, milk from cows that receive antibiotics is not used until tests show it is antibiotic-free. Tanks of milk are routinely tested to ensure no antibiotic content.
Pesticides. A third requirement of organic milk is that cows’ feed is grown without pesticides, whether the feed is grass or grain. Recent USDA reports show that nonorganic milk may contain low levels of certain pesticides, but these are far below established tolerance levels. Using organic feed may support sustainable farming practices, yet research has not found it affects the nutritional value of the cows’ milk.
Access to pasture. The final requirement for organic milk is that cows must have “access to pasture.” Many consumers assume this means cows graze in fields most of the year. However, the current standard does not require a specific length of time in pasture. A cow can graze in pasture only a limited time and still produce milk that is certified organic.
On the question of grain- versus grass-fed cows, some suggest that pasture-fed cows may produce milk that contains more conjugated linoleic acid (CLA), a special type of fat that may protect against cancer and other health problems. But Michael Pariza, professor of food microbiology and toxicology at the University of Wisconsin, and a leading expert on CLA in dairy products, says grass feeding by itself does not assure increased CLA.
He and Bauman both note that cows fed mixed grains with soybeans or other additions can produce milk that has higher CLA levels than milk from grass-fed cows. This may lead you to spend less on milk and more on fruits, vegetables, whole grains, fish and other healthful foods.
(This article was provided by the American Institute for Cancer Research in Washington, D.C. A registered dietician is available to respond to questions about diet, nutrition, and cancer at the free AICR Hotline at 1 (800) 843-8114 during business hours.)

High dairy consumption reduces risk of type 2 diabetes in men
By John Roberts Ph.D.
Jul 28, 2005, 09:00


It's known that dairy consumption is linked to the insulin resistance syndrome among young obese adults. But a new study conducted by Hyon K. Choi and colleagues at Harvard University found that dairy intake may reduce the risk of type 2 diabetes in men.

The study, published recently in the journal Archives of Internal Medicine, followed 41,254 male participants who had no history of diabetes, cardiovascular disease or cancer when entering the Health Professionals Follow-up Study. During a 12-year follow-up, the study documented 1243 cases of type 2 diabetes.

The study found that dairy intake was associated with a lower risk of type 2 diabetes. After adjusting for other possible factors such as body mass index, physical activity, and other dietary factors, those in the top quintile, who consumed the highest amount of dairy products, were 23 percent less likely to have type 2 diabetes compared with those in the lowest quintile of diary intake.

Each serving of dairy per day is associated with a 9 percent lower risk of type 2 diabetes. Low-fat diary intake lowered the risk by 11 percent while high fat diary intake did not seem to lower the risk for type 2 diabetes.

JOURNAL OF EPIDEMIOLOGY AND COMMUNITY HEALTH
[Milk consumption, stroke, and heart attack risk: evidence from the Caerphilly cohort of older men J Epidemiol Community Health 2005; 59: 502-5]
Newswise — A diet rich in milk does not increase the risk of heart disease and stroke, and may even be protective, concludes research in the Journal of Epidemiology and Community Health.
The research team asked a representative sample of 764 men to weigh and record every item of food and drink they consumed for seven consecutive days. Just under 90% of the sample (665) produced complete and detailed diaries.
The men, who were all aged between 45 and 59, were taking part in the Caerphilly Cohort Study, which was set up between 1979 and 1983.
They were given comprehensive health check-ups, including a heart tracing (ECG) at the start of the study and subsequently every five years for a period of 20 years. Hospital and family doctor records were also checked.
During the study period, 54 men had a stroke and 139 developed symptomatic ischaemic heart disease (heart attack or angina), and 225 died.
At the start of the study, virtually all milk consumption was whole (full fat) milk, but a random sample of the surviving men in 2000, showed that almost all of them had switched to skimmed or semi skimmed milk within the preceding eight years.
Men who consumed the most milk every day (a pint or more) had a higher energy intake, suggesting that they were more active. Cholesterol levels and blood pressure readings were similar in high and low milk consumers (less than half a pint), and men who drank the least milk tended to drink the most alcohol.
Men who drank the most milk had a lower risk of ischaemic heart disease or stroke than those who drank the least, and in the case of stroke this risk was significantly lower. The findings held true even for those men who had started out drinking full fat milk.
The authors suggest that milk has had something of a bad press in respect of its impact on cholesterol, and they conclude: "The present perception of milk as harmful, in increasing cardiovascular risk, should be challenged, and every effort should be made to restore it to its rightful place in a healthy diet."

Bone-density study
The guidelines' advisory committee report came to the opposite conclusion, and cited five of eight studies that found "milk product consumption significantly associated with reduced fracture risk" -- but didn't provide information on actual fractures. The studies measured bone density, "a strong predictor of fracture."
There are other reasons that Americans might have weaker bones even though they consume more calcium and dairy -- high consumption of protein as well as phosphates from carbonated soft drinks, both of which leach calcium from bones. Plus, Americans don't get enough bone-building exercise.
Marion Nestle, the NYU nutritionist who has documented industry's influence on food policy, says the typical American diet contributes to calcium losses, compared to countries where people eat more fruits, vegetables and grains.
"What is clear is that the reason the calcium level is set so high is to compensate," Nestle says.
It's a chicken-and-egg thing, with experts like Nestle and Willett saying it would be better to change our diet than to keep ratcheting up the dairy and calcium.


“A Prospective Study of Dairy Intake and the Risk of Type 2 Diabetes in Women” – was published in the July 2006 issue of Diabetes Care (the journal of the American Diabetes Association), and provides further support that low-fat dairy may be associated with reduced risk of type 2 diabetes.

The epidemiological study included more than 37,000 middle-aged (48-62 years old) health professional women over a 10 year period (from the Women’s Health Study) and found that "each serving-per-day increase in dairy intake was associated with a 4% lower risk of type 2 diabetes."

Study participants who were in the highest quintile of daily dairy intake (>2.9 servings) had a 21 percent reduced risk of developing type 2 diabetes than those in the lowest quintile of daily dairy intake(<0.85 servings); providing further support for the Dietary Guideline’s recommendation for three daily servings of dairy. Although the results were self reported, researchers note that the health professional characteristic of this study cohort may suggest the results are more valid.

The researchers conclude that "a dietary pattern that incorporates higher low-fat dairy products may lower the risk of type 2 diabetes in middle-aged or older women.” Additional findings to note:

Researchers initially found women with higher intake of lower-fat dairy generally had healthier lifestyle patterns. Inversely, women with higher intake of higher-fat dairy foods had less healthy lifestyle patterns. However, among those consuming more low-fat dairy, when researchers adjusted for these improved lifestyle factors, low-fat dairy was still associated with reduced risk of type 2 diabetes.

Findings suggest that dairy has an effect on the incidence of type 2 diabetes, independent of individual dietary factors of calcium, vitamin D, magnesium, fat, fiber and glycemic load. Researchers also found dairy consumption’s effect on incidence of type 2 diabetes to be independent of BMI.

Authors noted that exact mechanisms are unclear, but suggest there are favorable effects of dairy foods in the diet beyond type 2 diabetes, such as improved BMI, blood pressure, cardiovascular health and reduced risk of insulin resistance syndrome.


Los Angeles Times, March 21, 2006
For decades, biochemists and physiologists in the dog-eat-dog world of sports-drink technology have struggled to find the perfect elixir -- the right balance of carbohydrates, electrolytes, protein and fluid to keep athletes in peak form after various types of exercise.
So it was big news when exercise-kinesiology professor Joel Stager and co-workers at Indiana University in Bloomington declared they had stumbled upon the perfect drink for elite cyclists recovering their energy after strenuous exercise.
That beverage was chocolate milk.
In three trials administered at one-week intervals, nine male cyclists performed a strenuous workout, then drank one of three drinks. One group got standard 2-percent chocolate milk, another drank fluid- and electrolyte-replenishing Gatorade, and a third group drank Endurox R4, a specially formulated beverage with a "patented 4 to 1 ratio of carbohydrates to protein" and other ingredients aimed at replenishing muscle glycogen stores and helping rebuild muscle. Then, after a rest, the cyclists exercised again, this time to exhaustion.
The study, published in the February issue of the International Journal of Sports Nutrition and Exercise Metabolism, and funded in part by the dairy industry, reported that cyclists who drank chocolate milk at the break were able to continue cycling about 50 percent longer than those who drank Endurox R4 and about equally as long as those who drank Gatorade.
Some sports nutritionists weren't surprised by the results. "I've been touting chocolate milk for years," says Felice Kurtzman, sports nutritionist for UCLA's athletic department.
"Chocolate milk provides carbohydrates, calcium, other trace minerals," she says. "And the important thing is that the kids drink it. I can tell you from our training table that football drinks it, swimming drinks it, track drinks it."

February 15, 2006 – The Women’s Health Initiative study (as reported by the New England Journal of Medicine press release, Feb. 16, 2006), found that calcium and vitamin D supplements in healthy, postmenopausal women provide a modest benefit in preserving bone mass and prevention of hip fractures in certain groups of older women but did not prevent other types of fractures. While these findings are important, they don’t diminish the recognized value of milk and milk products in helping people build strong bones over the course of a lifetime.
Key Facts:
Most of the women in the study had adequate calcium intake before the intervention. There is a threshold effect with calcium as with most nutrients: once you're consuming an adequate amount, more doesn’t mean additional health benefits.
The new study examined the impact of supplements, not food.
The 2004 Surgeon General’s Report on Bone Health and Osteoporosis emphasizes the importance of including calcium and vitamin D-rich foods like milk, cheese and yogurt in the diet to help prevent osteoporosis.
Research published in the Journal of the American College of Nutrition in 2000 by prominent calcium and bone expert Robert P. Heaney, MD, of Creighton University in Omaha suggests that a diet devoid of milk and milk products could lead to bone fractures.
The U.S. Dietary Guidelines recommend 3 servings of fat-free and low-fat milk and milk products each day to help provide adequate calcium – a vital mineral that was identified as a “nutrient of concern” because of widespread under-consumption

[mikeschmike]

Well good, now that that's settled, both of you get your asses over to my thread and suggest some music for me. I would have thought Paula would have spoken up, given our short but passionate history together. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[skcin]

"I will say this - there is no study that definitively absolutely positively links milk to increased rates of cancer or diabetes. Is it possible? Of course. Is it definite? No."

This is your opinion that I disagree with, and also the part where you said you though milk was "fine in moderation." Also, I don't think 2-3 servings of dairy a day is 'moderation'. The food pyramid does, but the food pyramid is lame.
Again, ignoring so much data, to me, is remiss. Just previously with my articles, you didn't believe them, questioned them, etc. I have read about 1000 more studies that have the same, or similar conclusions. But I see now that that would not sway you either. So, if you don't believe all the data, for years and years, by scientists and doctors and nutritionists, then I really can't say much more - I think, judging by your responses to what I posted, that it is somewhat futile. :shrug: So, that's fine. I really can't do much more than provide massive amounts of data to convince you, and it hasn't, so whatever. I give up.

I still maintain that milk is never a healthy food choice. It may not kill you if you don't drink much, but it might, and if you cut out dairy, your body would be much more healthy.


When did I ever say I didn't believe your articles? Show me. I want to see. Seriously. I don't want to fight with you, but sheebus. All I'm doing is questioning what they're saying - don't you question things? You don't automaticaly believe everything the NIH says even though they have studies & evidence to support their ideas, do you?

Everyone SHOULD question information given to them, and not believe everything they read. Nor should they blow off things they read that may not support what they know or believe. Did you read my replies to your article? There was more than one instance where I agreed, or said that's an interesting connection. I did not ignore, I did not say they're untrue.


Your opinion about milk is OK by me - just like you don't give a **** if I drink it, I really don't give a **** that you don't. But it's your opinion that you're healthier because of it, not a proven fact. I'm glad you feel better since you stopped drinking it. Maybe I'll try & see if I feel awesome too. :shrug:

[skcin]

Well good, now that that's settled, both of you get your asses over to my thread and suggest some music for me. I would have thought Paula would have spoken up, given our short but passionate history together. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


I know, I know. I've been thinking hard about music to recommend. And you are my newest gay boyfriend, it seems, so I really shouldn't let our relationship suffer just because I'm so busy with milk. I'm sorry. Please don't break up with me. :o

[DrummerDeanna]

http://www.milknewsroom.com/images/ad_crow.jpg

[skcin]

^ You are going to be in so much trouble for posting that! :laugh:

Seriously, several groups are trying to get them (FDA? ****, I can't recall) to prevent the milk people from telling everyone that dairy consumption helps people lose weight, cuz apparently there's not enough scientific evidence to prove it & it may be false asvertising. Lemme see if I can find the article....

[DrummerDeanna]

^ You are going to be in so much trouble for posting that! :laugh:

Seriously, several groups are trying to get them (FDA? ****, I can't recall) to prevent the milk people from telling everyone that dairy consumption helps people lose weight, cuz apparently there's not enough scientific evidence to prove it & it may be false asvertising. Lemme see if I can find the article....

Yeah - it's the CALCIUM that helps I believe - not the actual Milk - and the yogurt promoting good tummy health - that's can help in the weight loss thing...

But yeah - Whole Milk? wilL NEVER help anyone lose weight.

[skcin]

Yeah - it's the CALCIUM that helps I believe - not the actual Milk - and the yogurt promoting good tummy health - that's can help in the weight loss thing...

But yeah - Whole Milk? wilL NEVER help anyone lose weight.

The issue is that there are other ways of obtaining calcium than from milk (I know you know this, btw)- in other words, it's just as beneficial to get it from spinach, or fortified OJ, or supplements than from milk. That's what they don't like about the ad campaign, it seems to imply milk is the only way.

[amber]

Why? I'm just throwing out some other info, so people can make non-biased judgements. What's the problem? Why can you question things, but I can't? If I posted a bunch of one sided info about milk being the best food ever, I certainly would expect people to disagree, and welcome differences of opinion & more information & arguments against my opinion.

You refuted almost every single point there. I think everything you said is wrong, or at best a specious argument. (based on my years of study). Except that doctors don't recommend milk for infants, that was right. But people still feed their infants milk.
Also, it appears to me from your responses that your info may be dated, or that you haven't seen the huge amount of studies I have. I say that because when you say "it doesn't say if they included other factors" and points like that - I've seen all the info where they did take all factors into account. And when scientist and doctors do population studies of that nature, they use control factors/groups, and do the studies in the way of "all other things being equal". I figured you knew that.

But it doesn't matter, because what you said indicates to me that I could post info until I was blue in the face and you still wouldn't be convinced.
So, that's fine. I've done all I can do to warn people of the massive health benefits attained by cutting dairy. Or, not all I can, but all anyone will accept.
Even some of the things you guys are posting above I know are wrong. Hahahaha. I guess I should stop looking, or trying. Milk is a terrible, non absorbing way to get calcium and vitamin D, totally counterproductive.

[skcin]

^OK, if you have more info, maybe you can send me the links? I'd like to see more details, I know there's not enough room on here.

And questioning info doesn't automatically mean I'm refuting it. I never said any of the info was wrong, incorrect, or anything like that. My responses pretty much just say I need more information than you gave to make a sound judgement IMO.

I'm curious if you read anything I posted? I'm interested to hear your comments on that research.

[skcin]

Even some of the things you guys are posting above I know are wrong. Hahahaha. I guess I should stop looking, or trying. Milk is a terrible, non absorbing way to get calcium and vitamin D, totally counterproductive.


We never said milk was a great way to get calcium - that's what I just pointed out to Dee, it's the reason why they want the campaign stopped. :confused:

Milk is not the best way to get calcium. I tried to find other articles supporting your articles that theorize it's actually harmful as far as blocking calcium absorption, but I couldn't. If you have more, please send me links.

[amber]

We never said milk was a great way to get calcium - that's what I just pointed out to Dee, it's the reason why they want the campaign stopped. :confused:

Milk is not the best way to get calcium. I tried to find other articles supporting your articles that theorize it's actually harmful as far as blocking calcium absorption, but I couldn't. If you have more, please send me links.

Yeah, I have entire books. Shall I send them to your home?

[sparky]

This is one of the best girlfights I have seen in ages.

And no, I don't drink milk. I put rice milk on my meusli and fruit and in my tea. Real milk began to wreak havoc on my intestines years ago, as did Soy milk after a few years. But I do have a bit of cheese now and then, and the odd bit of yogurt.

[DrummerDeanna]

This is one of the best girlfights I have seen in ages.

And no, I don't drink milk. I put rice milk on my meusli and fruit and in my tea. Real milk began to wreak havoc on my intestines years ago, as did Soy milk after a few years. But I do have a bit of cheese now and then, and the odd bit of yogurt.


OMG! I forgot about milk in tea - that seals it - I will NEVER give up milk. Tea is no good without milk in it...mmm...I'd love some tea and scones right about now.

Interestingly my great-grandmother drank loads of milk and was a cheese hound til the day she died - at 101 years old w/ no health problems. My poor moron of a great grandma :( :p

[bikerchic]

*Theresa - you force fed Dean 20 servings of milk every day, didn't you?!?!*

To be honest with you, this is the first time I have ever heard of any possible link between milk and diabetes :shrug: Keep in mind, I tried not to read to much about the disease as I become overwhelmed and depressed. I've been going to the diabetes clinic every 3 months for 3 years now and I have never heard of this. I don't know what to believe :shrug: Studies contradict each other all the time. They don't know what causes diabetes, so I think doctors and researchers hang on to any little glimmer of hope of finding a cause and a cure. What I do know is that I breast fed Dean for 4 months then switched to cow's milk based formula and then to cow's whole milk at about 12 months. There's no diabetes in either of my husband's family or mine but I was "borerline" diabetic when pregnant with Dean, meaning, I had to see a nutritionist and change my diet for the remainder of my pregnancy and then I was fine after his birth. Oh, ya, Dean is skinny, and there are no obese people in either of our families :shrug: so who knows. You can't believe every study you read. They say the air we breath is bad for us but are we going to stop going outside? I don't think so.

[irishgrl]

Nice passive agressive jab. Thanks.

And I'm apt to believe Yale professors and the like before you - Milk definitely has health benefits....it's withstood the test of oh...thousands of years - so...anyone who says milk is healthy is NOT a moron. But thanks.


I'm not looking for an argument - because basically it's fruitless - I'll stick with mega educated people who have dedicated their lives to studying this stuff. That's all.


oh. my. GAWD! Thank you for not falling into the Abyss......I could say more, but Im at work. Just Thanks :thumbsup:

[amber]

This is one of the best girlfights I have seen in ages.

And no, I don't drink milk. I put rice milk on my meusli and fruit and in my tea. Real milk began to wreak havoc on my intestines years ago, as did Soy milk after a few years. But I do have a bit of cheese now and then, and the odd bit of yogurt.

I'm sooo going to punch you when you drive up here. In your big ol' muscly arm. Then Paula will kick your shin.
:laugh: :wavey:

I found it easy to give up milk back in the day. My will easily won over my taste buds. But I only really had milk in coffee, anyway. I'm not a picky eater, and the pull of good health was much more important to me than a little milk and sugar in my coffee (I gave up refined sugar, too.). I find that it is much more easy to get used to dietary changes than people think it is, you just have to actually try.

[irishgrl]

Here is an article from WebMD, where the collective credentials Im sure are more valid than say PETA activists......among others........
first, the link (http://www.webmd.com/content/article/42/1671_52393)

Does Milk Do a Body Good?

Is It True That Drinking Milk Is Bad for You? By Elizabeth Somer, MA,RD
WebMD Medical News


July 2, 2001 -- The hullabaloo over milk is more smoke than fire. Except for infants or those who are intolerant to even small dollops of yogurt, most people would improve their diets by consuming more, not less, milk. Until people are willing to triple their current intakes of green leafy vegetables or drink three glasses daily of calcium- and vitamin D-fortified soymilk, their best bet is to drink milk -- but make it low- or nonfat.


Besides, most of the claims your friend has heard about milk being unhealthy are unfounded. Check out the evidence:


Heart Disease: Opponents of milk claim it causes heart disease. However, the only harm to your heart is with milk fat. A cup of whole milk supplies 8 grams of fat, the equivalent of almost 2 teaspoons of grease; 1 teaspoon of that is the type of saturated fat that makes a beeline for your arteries. But with an abundance of nonfat milk, yogurt products, and cheeses on the market, there is no reason for anyone over 2 years old to drink whole milk.
Diabetes: The outcry that milk causes diabetes is a case where a little information was taken too far. A few preliminary studies found a link between a series of amino acids in cow's milk, called ABBOS, and type 1diabetes in young children with a genetic predisposition to the disease. However, the only real proof is that breastfeeding is protective against the development of diabetes, not that cow's milk or formulas made with cows' milk are necessarily harmful. It's not earth-shaking news to hear babies shouldn't drink milk; since 1976, the American Academy of Pediatrics has warned against feeding cow's milk to infants. There is no solid evidence yet that anyone other than the under-1 set, even children and adults genetically at risk for diabetes, is harmed by drinking milk -- that is, unless they are milk intolerant.
Intolerance: Lactose intolerance, caused by insufficient amounts of the digestive enzyme lactase, is relatively common; the incidence ranges from as low as 10% of people of northern European decent to as high as 90% of African Americans, Asians, Jews, Native Americans, and Arabs. Even then, many who are lactose intolerant can drink small amounts of milk at meals with no problems. For those who can't, there are lactose-free milk products, such as Lactaid.
Allergies: While milk allergy receives a lot of attention, in reality few people are truly allergic to milk. The 1% to 2% of young children who develop allergic symptoms -- bronchitis, eczema, and asthma -- usually outgrow the problem by the time they are 2 years old; milk allergy is rarely diagnosed in adults.
Cancer: The FDA recently approved the use of a hormone called bovine somatotropin (BST), a laboratory-produced hormone that, when injected into cows, increases milk production by up to 25%. Opponents of the drug say it might also increase the consumer's risk for cancer and other health concerns. But the FDA contends that milk from treated cows is safe. At this point, there appears to be no difference in milk from treated and untreated cows.

Granted, no one needs to drink milk, but people in Western countries are hard pressed to meet their nutrient needs without it. For example, milk supplies up to 75% of an adult's calcium intake. Of course, you can take several calcium pills each day instead of drinking milk, but this goes against all dietary recommendations to turn first to food and only to supplements as a last resort. Milk also contains other factors that enhance calcium absorption and help prevent osteoporosis, such as vitamin D.


Most people fall short of optimal when it comes to calcium and would benefit from two to three servings of fat-free milk products every day. So don't give up your milk, and for those who are lactose intolerant, make sure you get the calcium-equivalent of three glasses of milk every day.


Elizabeth Somer is a registered dietitian and author of several books, including Food & Mood and The Essential Guide to Vitamins and Minerals. She frequently writes for national health magazines and makes regular appearances on The Today Show and other national shows.



© 2001 WebMD Corporation. All rights reserved.


for starters.

[irishgrl]

From Wikipedia (excerpt)
Nutritional benefits
Cow milk (whole)
Nutritional value per 100 g
Energy 60 kcal 250 kJ
Carbohydrates 5.2 g
- Sugars 5.2 g
- Lactose 5.2 g
Fat 3.25 g
- saturated 1.9 g
- monounsaturated 0.8 g
- polyunsaturated 0.2 g
Protein 3.2 g
Water 88 g
Vitamin A 28 μg 3%
Thiamin (Vit. B1) 0.04 mg 3%
Riboflavin (Vit. B2) 0.18 mg 12%
Vitamin B12 0.44 μg 18%
Vitamin D 40 IU 20%
Calcium 113 mg 11%
Magnesium 10 mg 3%
Potassium 143 mg 3%

100 g corresponds to 103 ml.
Percentages are relative to US RDI
values for adults.
Source: USDA Nutrient database
Milk began containing differing amounts of fat during the 1950's. A serving (1 cup or 250 ml) of 2%-fat milk contains 285 mg of calcium, which represents 22% to 29% of the daily recommended intake (DRI) of calcium for an adult. Depending on the age, 8 grams of protein, and a number of other nutrients (either naturally or through fortification):

Vitamins D and K are essential for bone health.
Iodine is a mineral essential for thyroid function.
Vitamin B12 and riboflavin are necessary for cardiovascular health and energy production.
Biotin and pantothenic acid are B vitamins important for energy production.
Vitamin A is critical for immune function.
Potassium and magnesium are for cardiovascular health.
Selenium is a cancer-preventive trace mineral.
Thiamine is a B-vitamin important for cognitive function, especially memory
Conjugated linoleic acid is a beneficial fatty acid that inhibits several types of cancer in mice, it has been shown to kill human skin cancer, colorectal cancer and breast cancer cells in vitro studies, and may help lower cholesterol and prevent atherosclerosis; only available in milk from grass-fed cows.
Studies show possible links between low-fat milk consumption and reduced risk of arterial hypertension, coronary heart disease, and obesity. Overweight individuals who drink milk may benefit from decreased risk of insulin resistance and type 2 diabetes. [8]

[irishgrl]

OK, I've thoroughly read all the info Amber provided. Definitely interesting, and something to think about when making dietary choices. Is this article from a Vegan website? Just wondering, I didn't see the source. I am not going to ignore the things I've just read, and I will be sure to not eat too much dairy after reading all of these theories. Considering my usual intake is a splash of 1% milk 4-5 days a week & some cheese/yogurt every day, I rarely eat even the recommended 2-3 servings anyway, so I'm not really that worried.

I think it's great that people are doing research to find out exactly what's good for us & what's not, and question older outdated info. I personally take it with a grain of salt. So may studies say the opposite of other studies - hard to decide for sure which study is the best or most accurate. Apparently, the only thing we can honestly eat without fear are completely organic raw fresh veggies. Too much of anything else can be unhealthy, and this obviously includes dairy. Point taken.

I'd like to comment on a few things. Not trying to dispute any of the info presented, just some thoughts:



Humans are the only species to do a bunch of things. Eating cooked food comes to mind, but I'm not going to stop doing that.

And yes, the majority of the world's pop. is at least mildly lactose intolerant. That's not because it's bad necessarily, it's because it may not be available to them, therefore their bodies can't process it properly. The people that I know who are medically diagnosed as lactose intolerant simply don't eat dairy, or they eat only what they can tolerate. Of course if something makes you sick to your stomach, then don't eat it - seems like common sense to me. Only about 15% of the Caucasian pop. is lactose intolerant, btw.



Aren't diets in Finland higher in fat in general? High fat dairy, cheeses, meats, etc. How about the availability of fresh veggies? And perhaps people are less physically active than in other parts of the world? I'm not in any way saying that the intake of high fat dairy has nothing to do with the increased rates, I just think there may be other factors involved as well. And I noticed that although this article explains that low fat/skim products aren't that low in fat, they stop short of saying they've been shown to cause heart disease, etc.



I would like to know who the hell is recommending cow's milk for infants?!?! Certainly not pediatricians, at least not for the past 15-20 years. They can't tolerate it, and breast milk is much better. Formula fortified with iron is the second choice. In my professional & personal experience I've never heard anyone tell a mother to give her baby cow's milk.

The allergy link in kids is concerning, although this article isn't very clear to me. I know from my research that there are several possible reasons for the increased incidence of allergies (esp. to foods) but nobody has determined any one cause. Obviously, milk is a possible contributing factor & I hope this is investigated further.



I do agree that too much focus has been put on "milk builds strong bones" over the years. Evidence shows that it is beneficial in children as far as preventing osteoporosis later in life, but when you're older it doesn't really do squat. Many people aren't aware of this & think that if they suddenly start chugging milk when they're 40, they'll be fine. Uh-uh.

But just because the body can only absorb so much doesn't mean they should cut out all dairy, IMO. And did the study look at the fact that we drink much more soda & eat much more fast food here in North America? Studies also show that soda can severely deplete calcium stores as well as decrease bone density and more fast food seems to = obesity which seems to = decreased activity/exercise, all of which contribute to the development of osteoporosis.

Again, I'm not disputing or trying to minimize the information, just pointing out that there may be more to it than just drinking milk alone. In other words, woman shouldn't completely cut dairy out of their diet because they heard it might not be great for their bones, but continue to lead a sedentary lifestyle & chug pop. They need to look at their life & their diet as a whole - there's no quick fix.



I understand some people may think that frozen yogurt is good for them just because it says "yogurt." I am not one of them. :D Read labels, people. I'm surprised to see that this article isn't really that hard on yogurt, since someone once told me I may as well eat a bunch of sugar instead. :shrug: It is important to eat ygurt that contains active cultures (esp. acidophyllus.) Also - ladies - if you're put on antibiotics for any infection, eating a cup of yogurt every day while you're taking them usually prevents yeast infections from developing.



Again with the infants. Doctors do not recommend cow's milk for infants. Neither does the cow/dairy industry or the USDA or any other agency in the U.S.



I'm trying to find the portion of the Nurse's Health Study that shows this, but I'm having a hard time finding it. As far as the study in Sweden, I'm curious to know if other factors were looked at (other dietary factors, esp. fat, smoking, hormone levels, never having kids vs. having several, etc.) Very interesting, though, I hadn't heard that before. The incidence of ovarian Ca is pretty low in relation to other cancers, but obviously if you have other risk factors you may want to limit dairy.



I'd like to try & find more info on the specifics of the study. I notice it says "were associated with" not "causes." By "animal product" does that mean only dairy, or meat as well? If it includes meat, then theoretically the diet would be higher in fat than non-meat eaters, and they may be overweight because of that, which has long been thought to increase the risk for development of IDDM (Insulin Dependent Diabetes, used to be called Juvenile Diabetes.) If the correlation between dairy and IDDM is strong enough, this is HUGE. It could help in the diagnosis or even prevention of diabetes. :nod:

*Theresa - you force fed Dean 20 servings of milk every day, didn't you?!?!*



I'd like to know this 1 GYN's sources. Is this just her opinion? I'll be posting a study shortly that seems to dispute some of her claims.



Please see the article I'll post shortly on the "organic" and "free range" controversy.

I for one appreciate your level-headed treatment of this whole discussion. Ive only actually read the first 5 or 6 pages (up to your post I quoted) but it appears to me that articles posted by Amber are either OPINIONS or without citation. Of course, there are two sides to every issue and everyone is going to lean one way or another for various reasons. Apparently Amber has bought into the whole "Milk is BAD!" propaganda. Whatever. What is chuckle-worthy however is her position that only HER sources and HER research are valid. PUH-LEEZ. Obviously, as has been mentioned, whole milk is unnecessary beyond the age of 5 for several reasons, chiefly a need to control cholesterols and fats. Some milks contain the Bovine Growth Hormone but many do NOT.

I question studies that make conclusions such as "men who drink 5+ glasses of Vitamin D milk are more likely to get prostate Cancer than men who only drink 2 glasses" I'd have to see the actual methodology and whether this was a double blind test and what other dietary/lifestyle choice factors could also be impacting the results. Ive never heard anywhere other than Amber's article that Vitamin D inhibits calcium absorbtion. I know about the Vitamin C and IRON connection but Vitamin D and Calcium? :shrug:

At any rate, just because people disagree with Amber, doesnt make them morons or deliberately uninformed. It only means they disagree with her. And, these studies contradict themselves every decade or so. One year coffee is a bad thing, the next year its the new miracle food/drink, and on and on. You're free to practice whatever dietary guidelines you want but no one has the right to think that their way is the only way, or that their information (out of all the information available) is infallible.
Thats just plain FOOLISH and ILLOGICAL. :nod: :nod: :nod:

[skcin]

This is one of the best girlfights I have seen in ages.



We're turning you on, I just know it. :nod:


Yeah, I have entire books. Shall I send them to your home?


No, it's OK. I can peruse them next month while I'm in your tub taking a milk bath & you're in the kitchen frying up my bacon. :cool:

[irishgrl]

We're turning you on, I just know it. :nod:





No, it's OK. I can peruse them next month while I'm in your tub taking a milk bath & you're in the kitchen frying up my bacon. :cool:

oh to be a fly on the wall.........

[irishgrl]

ok, here is an article by the HARVARD school of Public Health:

Calcium & Milk

What's Best For Your Bones?

Those advertisements pushing milk as the answer to strong bones are almost inescapable. But does "got milk" really translate into "got strong bones?"

The pro-milk faction believes that increased calcium intake - particularly in the form of the currently recommended three glasses of milk per day - will help prevent osteoporosis, the weakening of bones. Each year, osteoporosis leads to more than 1.5 million fractures, including 300,000 broken hips.

On the other side are those who believe that consuming a lot of milk and other dairy products will have little effect on the rate of fractures but may contribute to problems such as heart disease or prostate cancer.

Which view is right? The final answers aren't in. But here is a summary of what's currently known about calcium and its effects on the body.

What is calcium?

Calcium is a mineral that the body needs for numerous functions, including building and maintaining bones and teeth, blood clotting, the transmission of nerve impulses, and the regulation of the heart's rhythm. Ninety-nine percent of the calcium in the human body is stored in the bones and teeth. The remaining 1 percent is found in the blood and other tissues.

Where do we get calcium?

The body gets the calcium it needs in two ways. One is by eating foods that contain calcium. good sources include dairy products, which have the highest concentration per serving of highly absorbable calcium, and dark leafy greens or dried beans, which have varying amounts of absorbable calcium.

The other way the body gets calcium is by pulling it from bones. This happens when blood levels of calcium drop too low, usually when it's been a while since having eaten a meal containing calcium. Ideally, the calcium that is "borrowed" from the bones will be replaced at a later point. But, this doesn't always happen. Most important, this payback can't be accomplished simply by eating more calcium.

Growing healthy bones

Bone is living tissue that is always in flux. Throughout the lifespan, bones are constantly being broken down and built up in a process known as remodeling. Bone cells called osteoblasts build bone, while other bone cells called osteoclasts break down bone.

In healthy individuals who get enough calcium and physical activity, bone production exceeds bone destruction up to about age 30. After that, destruction typically exceeds production.

What is osteoporosis?

Osteoporosis, or "porous bones," is the weakening of bones caused by an imbalance between bone building and bone destruction. People typically lose bone as they age, despite consuming the recommended intake of calcium necessary to maintain optimal bone health. An estimated 10 million Americans - 8 million women and 2 million men - have osteoporosis. Another 34 million have low bone mass, placing them at increased risk for osteoporosis.(1)

Achieving adequate calcium intake and maximizing bone stores during the time when bone is rapidly deposited (up to age 30) provides an important foundation for the future. But it will not prevent bone loss later in life. The loss of bone with aging is due to several reasons, including genetic factors, physical inactivity, and lower levels of circulating hormones (estrogen in women and testosterone in men).

Postmenopausal women account for 80 percent of all cases of osteoporosis because estrogen production declines rapidly at menopause. Of course, men are also at risk of developing osteoporosis, but they tend to do so 5-10 years later than women, since testosterone levels do not fall abruptly the way estrogen does in women. It is estimated that osteoporosis will cause half of all women over age 50 to suffer a fracture of the hip, wrist, or vertebra.

How can osteoporosis be slowed down?

Preventing osteoporosis depends on two things: making the strongest, densest bones possible during the first 30 years of life and limiting the amount of bone loss in adulthood.

There are a number of lifestyle factors that can help with the latter:

* Getting regular exercise, especially weight-bearing and muscle strengthening exercise.
* Getting adequate vitamin D, whether through diet, exposure to sunshine, or supplements.
* Consuming enough calcium to reduce the amount the body has to borrow from bone.
* Consuming adequate vitamin K, found in green-leafy vegetables.
* Not getting too much preformed vitamin A.

Preventing bone loss in adulthood

Several complementary strategies can help prevent or minimize bone loss during adulthood and old age. These include:

Getting regular exercise

Physical activity that puts some strain or stress on bones causes the bones to retain and possibly even gain density throughout life. Cells within the bone sense this stress and respond by making the bone stronger and denser. Such "weight-bearing" exercises include walking, dancing, jogging, weightlifting, stair-climbing, racquet sports, and hiking.

Swimming is a useful form of exercise for the heart and cardiovascular system. But because water supports the bones, rather than putting stress on them, it's not considered a good "weight-bearing" exercise for bone strength. In addition, physical activity doesn't strengthen all bones, just those that are stressed, so you need a variety of exercises or activities to keep all your bones healthy.

Another function of physical activity, probably at least as important as its direct effect on bone mass, is its role in increasing muscle strength and coordination. With greater muscle strength, one can often avoid falls and situations that cause fractures. Making physical activity a habit can help maintain balance and avoid falls.

Getting enough calcium

Despite the debates surrounding milk and calcium, one thing is clear: adequate calcium - both for bone development and for non-bone functions - is key to reducing the risk of osteoporosis. However, the healthiest or safest amount of dietary calcium hasn't yet been established. Different scientific approaches have yielded different estimates, so it's important to consider all the evidence.

Balance studies - which examine the point at which the amount of calcium consumed equals the amount of calcium excreted - suggest that an adequate intake is 550 mg/day. To ensure that 95 percent of the population gets this much calcium, the National Academy of Sciences established the following recommended intake levels:

* 1,000 mg/day for those age 19-50
* 1,200 mg/day for those age 50 or over
* 1,000 mg/day for pregnant or lactating adult women

But most balance studies are short-term and therefore have important limitations. To detect how the body adapts to different calcium intakes over a long period of time - and to get the big picture of overall bone strength - requires studies of longer duration.

The results from such long-term studies may be surprising to some. While they do not question the importance of calcium in maximizing bone strength, they cast doubt on the value of consuming the large amounts currently recommended for adults.

In particular, these studies suggest that high calcium intake doesn't actually appear to lower a person's risk for osteoporosis. For example, in the large Harvard studies of male health professionals and female nurses, individuals who drank one glass of milk (or less) per week were at no greater risk of breaking a hip or forearm than were those who drank two or more glasses per week.(2, 3) Other studies have found similar results.

Additional evidence also supports the idea that American adults may not need as much calcium as is currently recommended. For example, in countries such as India, Japan, and Peru where average daily calcium intake is as low as 300 mg/day (less than a third of the US recommendation for adults, ages 19-50), the incidence of bone fractures is quite low. Of course, these countries differ in other important bone-health factors as well - such as level of physical activity and amount of sunlight - which could account for their low fracture rates.

Ideally, these issues might be resolved by randomizing a large group of adults to get different amounts of calcium and following them to see how many would eventually break a bone. In fact, a few such studies have been conducted, but they have not provided clear results because they were small or of short duration, or they provided calcium in combination with vitamins, which could obscure the true effects of calcium.

To illustrate the different conclusions drawn from examining the same body of data, a British committee that is comparable to the U.S. group that established calcium requirements here concluded that 700 mg/day was enough for individuals aged 19 and older.

Getting enough vitamin D

Vitamin D plays a critical role in maintaining bone health. When blood levels of calcium begin to drop, the body responds in several ways. It promotes the conversion of vitamin D into its active form, which then travels to the intestines (to encourage greater calcium absorption (THUS REFUTING AMBYSS' oh so accurate and massive information...) into the blood) and to the kidneys (to minimize calcium loss in the urine).

For bone health, an adequate intake of vitamin D is no less important than calcium. Vitamin D is found in milk and vitamin supplements, and it can be made by the skin when it is exposed to sunlight in the summertime. But not all sunlight is created equal. Above 40 degrees latitude (north of San Francisco, Denver, Indianapolis, and Philadelphia), the winter sunlight isn't strong enough to promote vitamin D formation. Sunscreens also prevent the formation of vitamin D, although they are still recommended to reduce risk of sun-induced skin cancer and skin damage.

An examination of clinical trials of vitamin D for the prevention of osteoporosis found that the vitamin decreases vertebral fractures and may decrease nonvertebral fractures.(4) A similar analysis of the effect of vitamin D on falls indicated that supplementation with vitamin D reduces the risk of falls among ambulatory or institutionalized older individuals with stable health by more than 20%.(5)

Getting enough vitamin K

Vitamin K, which is found mainly in green, leafy vegetables, likely plays one or more important roles in calcium regulation and bone formation.(6) Low intake of the vitamin has been associated with low bone mineral density in women, but not men.(7) Getting one or more servings per day of broccoli, Brussels spouts, dark green lettuce, collard greens, or kale should be enough to meet the daily recommended target of 120 micrograms/day for men and 90 micrograms/day for women.

Some other factors may also help lower the risk of osteoporosis:

* Take care with caffeine. Although the votes aren't all in, there is some evidence that drinking a lot of coffee - about four or more cups per day - can increase the risk of fracture. Caffeine tends to promote calcium excretion in urine.
* Avoid too much protein. Getting too much protein can leach calcium from your bones. As your body digests protein, it releases acids into the bloodstream, which the body neutralizes by drawing calcium from the bones. Animal protein seems to cause more of this calcium leaching than vegetable protein does.(3) Just how important protein is as a risk factor for osteoporosis is still up in the air.
* Get enough vitamin A, but not too much. Long-associated with good vision, vitamin A has also been found to direct the process of borrowing and redepositing calcium in bone. However, too much preformed vitamin A can promote fractures. Avoid vitamin supplements that have a full RDA (5,000 IU) of vitamin A as preformed vitamin A, unless prescribed by your doctor. Vitamin A in the form of beta-carotene does not increase one's fracture risk.

Postmenopausal women may also want to talk to a health care provider about taking a medication that can strengthen bones. The estrogen in postmenopausal hormones can compensate for the drop in estrogen levels after menopause, helping to prevent - and perhaps even partially reverse - bone loss. However, hormone replacement therapy has fallen from grace as the mainstay for preventing osteoporosis after results from several studies showed that it increased the risk of heart disease, stroke, and blood clots.(8) Other medications such as alendronate (Fosamax), risedronate (Actonel), calcitonin (Miacalcin), raloxifene (Evista), and parathyroid hormone (Fortéo) have been approved for the prevention or treatment of osteoporosis.

Should you get calcium from milk?

When most people in the United States think of calcium, they immediately think of milk. But should this be so? Milk is actually only one of many sources of calcium, and there are some important reasons why milk may not be the best source for everyone. These include:

* Lactose intolerance
Many people have some degree of lactose intolerance. For them, eating or drinking dairy products causes problems like cramping, bloating, gas, and diarrhea. These symptoms can range from mild to severe. Certain groups are much more likely to have lactose intolerance. For example, 90 percent of Asians, 70 percent of blacks and Native Americans, and 50 percent of Hispanics are lactose-intolerant, compared to only about 15 percent of people of Northern European descent.

One alternative for those who are lactose intolerant but who still enjoy consuming dairy products is to take a pill containing enzymes that digest milk sugar along with the dairy product, or to consume milk that has the lactase enzyme added to it.
* High saturated fat content
Many dairy products are high in saturated fats, and a high saturated fat intake is a risk factor for heart disease. And while it's true that most dairy products are now available in fat-reduced or nonfat options, the saturated fat that's removed from dairy products is inevitably consumed by someone, often in the form of premium ice cream, butter, or baked goods.

Strangely, it's often the same people who purchase these higher-fat products who also purchase the low-fat dairy products, so it's not clear that they're making great strides in cutting back on their saturated fat consumption. For more information on dietary fats, click here.
* Possible increased risk of ovarian cancer
High levels of galactose, a sugar released by the digestion of lactose in milk, have been studied as possibly damaging to the ovaries and leading to ovarian cancer. Although such associations have not been reported in all studies, there may be potential harm in consuming high amounts of dairy products.(9, 10)

* Possible increased risk of prostate cancer
A diet high in calcium has been implicated as a potential risk factor for prostate cancer. In a Harvard study of male health professionals, men who drank two or more glasses of milk a day were almost twice as likely to develop advanced prostate cancer as those who didn't drink milk at all.(11) Moreover, the association appears to be with calcium itself, rather than with dairy products in general.
Clearly, more research is needed.

The bottom line-recommendations for calcium intake and bone health

Adequate, lifelong dietary calcium intake is necessary to reduce the risk of osteoporosis. Consuming adequate calcium and vitamin D and performing regular, weight-bearing exercise are also important to build maximum bone density and strength. After age 30, these factors help slow bone loss, although they cannot completely prevent bone loss due to aging.

Milk and dairy products are a convenient source of calcium for many people. They are also a good source of protein and are fortified with vitamins D and A. At this time, however, the optimal intake of calcium as well as the optimal sources of calcium, are not clear. As noted earlier, the National Academy of Sciences currently recommends that people ages 19-50 consume 1,000 mg of calcium per day, and that those age 50 or over get 1,200 mg per day. Reaching 1200 mg per day would usually require drinking two to three glasses of milk per day over and above an overall healthy diet.

However, these recommendations are based on very short-term studies, and are likely to be higher than what people really need. Currently, there's no good evidence that consuming more than one serving of milk per day in addition to a reasonable diet (which typically provides about 300 milligrams of calcium per day from nondairy sources) will reduce fracture risk. Because of unresolved concerns about the risk of ovarian and prostate cancer, it may be prudent to avoid higher intakes of dairy products.

At moderate levels, though, consumption of calcium and dairy products has benefits beyond bone health, including possibly lowering the risk of high blood pressure and colon cancer.(12-14) While the blood pressure benefits appear fairly small, the protection against colon cancer seems somewhat larger, and most of the latter benefit comes from having just one glass of milk per day. Getting more than this doesn't seem to lower risk any further.

For individuals who are unable to digest - or who dislike - dairy products and for those who simply prefer not to consume large amounts of such foods, other options are available. Calcium can also be found in dark green leafy vegetables, such as kale and collard greens, and in dried beans and legumes.

Calcium is also found in spinach and chard, but these vegetables contain oxalic acid, which combines with the calcium to form calcium oxalate, a chemical salt that makes the calcium less available to the body. A variety of calcium-fortified foods, such as orange juice, are now on the market.

Calcium (and vitamin D) can also be ingested as a supplement. Antacids contain calcium as well. However, men may want to avoid calcium supplements for men because of questions about possible risks of prostate cancer.

An extensive list of the calcium content of foods is available online from the U.S. Department of Agriculture. These foods are good sources of calcium:
Food Amount Calcium
Yogurt, plain, low fat 8 oz
415
Collards, frozen, boiled 1 cup
357
Skim milk 1 cup
306
Spinach, frozen, boiled 1 cup
291
Yogurt, plain, whole milk 8 oz
275
Cheese food, pasteurized American 1 oz
162
Cottage cheese, 1% milk fat 1 cup
138
Baked beans, canned 1 cup
154
Iceberg lettuce 1 head
97
Canned salmon 3 oz
181
Oranges 1 cup
72
Trail mix (nuts, seeds, chocolate chips) 1 cup
159
Almonds 1 oz (24 nuts)
70
Blackeye peas, boiled 1 cup
211
Green peas, boiled 1 cup
94





References

1. Osteoporosis facts. National Osteoporosis Foundation.
2. Owusu W, Willett WC, Feskanich D, Ascherio A, Spiegelman D, Colditz GA. Calcium intake and the incidence of forearm and hip fractures among men. J Nutr 1997; 127:1782-7.
3. Feskanich D, Willett WC, Stampfer MJ, Colditz GA. Milk, dietary calcium, and bone fractures in women: a 12-year prospective study. Am J Public Health 1997; 87:992-7.
4. Papadimitropoulos E, Wells G, Shea B, et al. Meta-analyses of therapies for postmenopausal osteoporosis. VIII: Meta-analysis of the efficacy of vitamin D treatment in preventing osteoporosis in postmenopausal women. Endocr Rev 2002; 23:560-9.
5. Bischoff-Ferrari HA, Dawson-Hughes B, Willett WC, et al. Effect of Vitamin D on falls: a meta-analysis. JAMA 2004; 291:1999-2006.
6. Weber P. Vitamin K and bone health. Nutrition 2001; 17:880-7.
7. Booth SL, Broe KE, Gagnon DR, et al. Vitamin K intake and bone mineral density in women and men. Am J Clin Nutr 2003; 77:512-6.
8. Manson JE, Hsia J, Johnson KC, et al. Estrogen plus progestin and the risk of coronary heart disease. N Engl J Med 2003; 349:523-34.
9. Cramer DW. Lactase persistence and milk consumption as determinants of ovarian cancer risk. Am J Epidemiol 1989; 130:904-10.
10. Cramer DW, Harlow BL, Willett WC, et al. Galactose consumption and metabolism in relation to the risk of ovarian cancer. Lancet 1989; 2:66-71.
11. Giovannucci E, Rimm EB, Wolk A, et al. Calcium and fructose intake in relation to risk of prostate cancer. Cancer Res 1998; 58:442-447.
12. Martinez ME, Willett WC. Calcium, vitamin D, and colorectal cancer: a review of the epidemiologic evidence. Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev 1998; 7:163-8.
13. Hyman J, Baron JA, Dain BJ, et al. Dietary and supplemental calcium and the recurrence of colorectal adenomas. Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev 1998; 7:291-5.
14. Cappuccio FP, Elliott P, Allender PS, Pryer J, Follman DA, Cutler JA. Epidemiologic association between dietary calcium intake and blood pressure: a meta-analysis of published data. Am J Epidemiol 1995; 142:935-45.


The aim of the Harvard School of Public Health Nutrition Source is to provide timely information on diet and nutrition for clinicians, allied health professionals, and the public. The contents of this Web site are not intended to offer personal medical advice, which should be obtained from a health-care provider. The information does not mention brand names, nor does it endorse any particular products.

©2006 President and Fellows of Harvard College.

HARVARD SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH

Clearly, QUALITY is more important than QUANTITY ("massive research" notwithstanding) when it comes to the sources we need to rely on.

[carrie721]

^^ what's the pub. date on this?

since people are ****ting themselves over research from brand-name institutions like harvard and yale, here is what i found in eat, drink, and be healthy: the harvard medical school guide to healthy eating (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0743266420/sr=8-1/qid=1156558026/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-1334696-3188140?ie=UTF8), by walter c. willett, m.d., CHAIRMAN OF THE DEPARTMENT OF NUTRITION AT THE HARVARD SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH (is that clear enough? sometimes i worry that people can't read what i'm writing unless i TYPE ALL SALIENT POINTS IN CAPS). the original pub. date is 2001, and it was just revised following the USDA's "revamping" of the food pyramid.

how much calcium or milk is safe?

nutrition experts have long assumed that calcium is a lot like vitamin c - your body merely excretes what it can't use. but its' beginning to look as though too much calcium might be a bad thing. for men, a high calcium intake seems to increase the odds of developing fatal prostate cancer. for women, drinking a lot of milk has been linked with higher rates of ovarian cancer. in both cases the evidence isn't conclusive, but it is enough to sound a warning about the possible negative effects of getting too much calcium and drinking too much milk.

is milk, or are dairy products in general, the best source of calcium?

milk is clearly a highly efficient way to get calcium from food, since it delivers almost 300 mg. per eight-ounce glass. but milk delivers more than just calcium, and some of its other components - like extra calories, saturated fat, and the sugar known as galactose - aren't necessarily good for you. what's more, as many as fifty million adults in the united states can't completely digest the milk sugar known as lactose. nor can most of the world's population.

[...]

dairy products shoudn't occupy a prominent place in our diet, nor should they be the centerpiece of the national strategy to prevent osteoporosis. instead, the evidence shows that dietary calcium should come from a variety of sources and, if more calcium is really needed, from cheap, no-calorie, easy-to-take supplements. then you can look at dairy products as an optional part of a healthy diet and take them in moderation, if at all.

[DrummerDeanna]

^^ what's the pub. date on this?

since people are ****ting themselves over research from brand-name institutions like harvard and yale, here is what i found in eat, drink, and be healthy: the harvard medical school guide to healthy eating (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0743266420/sr=8-1/qid=1156558026/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-1334696-3188140?ie=UTF8), by walter c. willett, m.d., CHAIRMAN OF THE DEPARTMENT OF NUTRITION AT THE HARVARD SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH (is that clear enough? sometimes i worry that people can't read what i'm writing unless i TYPE ALL SALIENT POINTS IN CAPS). the original pub. date is 2001, and it was just revised following the USDA's "revamping" of the food pyramid.


Ok - but those things have already been addressed! No one is saying Milk should be the main source of anything...and we've all already agreed that NO ONE over age five should drink whole milk - so the fats and sugars thing goes right out the window...:shrug:

[JazmenFlowers]

http://www.milknewsroom.com/images/ad_crow.jpg
have you seen the one with David Beckham? va va vavoom!
frying up my bacon. :cool:
bacon. there's another topic. I'm not a big bacon person either. if I eat bacon it has to be undercooked...most people I know like it crispy, but I like it cooked just enough, but not crunchy. I wonder what that means :shrug: actually, I'm quite picky with my food.

[Miss Vicky]

NO ONE over age five should drink whole milk

But damn it, it tastes so good!
:D

[irishgrl]

^^ what's the pub. date on this?

since people are ****ting themselves over research from brand-name institutions like harvard and yale, here is what i found in eat, drink, and be healthy: the harvard medical school guide to healthy eating (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0743266420/sr=8-1/qid=1156558026/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-1334696-3188140?ie=UTF8), by walter c. willett, m.d., CHAIRMAN OF THE DEPARTMENT OF NUTRITION AT THE HARVARD SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH (is that clear enough? sometimes i worry that people can't read what i'm writing unless i TYPE ALL SALIENT POINTS IN CAPS). the original pub. date is 2001, and it was just revised following the USDA's "revamping" of the food pyramid.

the copyright says 2006. nuff said.


©2006 President and Fellows of Harvard College. I guess that comes after your 2001 info yes?

[carrie721]

from the same book:

the dark side of calcium and dairy products

if no one really knows the best daily calcium target, then why not play it safe and boost your calcium by drinking three glasses of milk a day? here are six good reasons: lactose intolerance, saturated fat, extra calories, unneeded hormones, a possible increased risk of prostate cancer, and a possible increased risk of ovarian cancer.

lactose intolerance. all babies are born with the ability to digest milk. some, especially those of northern european ancestry, keep this trait for life. most children, though, gradually lose it as their bodies stop making an enzyme called lactase that breaks down milk sugar (lactose). in fact, only about a quarter of the world's adults can fully digest milk. in the united states, as many as fifty million americans aren't equipped to digest milk. half of the hispanic americans, 75 percent of african americans, and more than 90 percent of asian americans can't tolerate a lot of lactose. for them, drinking a glass of milk can have unpleasant consequences, such as nausea, bloating, cramps, and diarrhea. [...]

saturated fat. an eight-ounce glass of whole milk contains almost 5 grams of saturated fat, or about 20 percent of the recommended 20-gram daily limit. drinking three glasses a day would be the equivalent of eating twelve strips of bacon or a big mac and an order of fries. [...]

extra calories. three glasses of whole milk a day add 450 calories to your diet - about one-quarter of your daily intake allowance. low-fat milk, at just 330 calories, adds a bit fewer, but that is still a lot if the main goal is just to get more calcium.

extra hormones. cows make most of the same hormones that humans make. before farming turned into agribusiness, the hormone leves in milk weren't an issue. today, though, they may well be a cause for concern.

over the years, dairy cattle have been bred to produce more milk. since 1960, american holstein cows' genetic potential for milk production has increased nearly seven thousand pounds for each period of lactation. cows are also routinely milked while they are pregnant, which also keeps milk production high. this is great for cattle farmers andmilk producers, and it helps keep the price of milk relatively low. but it also means that today's milk contains a more concentrated hormonal stew than it did years ago. naturally occurrring hormones in milk include estrogens and progestins, androgens, and insulinlike growth factors, to name just a few. estrogens and progestins can stimulate breast cancer, andtrogens promote prostate cancer, and elevated levels of insulin-like growth factor have been linked with breast, prostate, and colon cancer.

almost ten years ago, my colleagues and i started the growing up today study among children of women in the nurses' health study. the more than sixteen thousand volunteers complete forms on diet, exercise, lifestyle factors, and health much as their mothers do. in this group, the largely hormone-driven condition of teenage acne is more common among milok drinkers. this is important because it suggests that the hormones in milk are strong enough or abundant enough to stimulate glandular tissue such as the sebaceous glands in the skin - and possibly the mammary glands in the breast.

prostate cancer. a diet high in dairy products has been implicated as a risk factor for prostate cancer. in nine separate studies, the strongest and most consistent dietary factor linked with prostate cancer was high consumption of milk or dairy products. in the largest of these, the health professionals follow-up study, men who drank two of more glasses of milk a day were almost twice as likely to develop advanced or metastatic (spreading) prostate cancer as those who didn't drink milk at all.

at first, researchers thought that the connection between dairy products and prostate cancer was due to the saturated fat in dairy products. but results from the health professionals follow-up study, as well as more careful analyses of other data, suggest that calcium might be the main culprit. [...]

breast cancer. early-onset breast cancer (cancer that appears before menopause) seems to be associated with high intake of full-fat dairy products. this is especially the case for estrogen-receptor positive (er+) breast cancer, in which estrogen stimulates cancer cells to grow and divide.

ovarian cancer. about fifteen years ago, harvard medical school researches suggested that high levels of galactose, a simple sugar released by the digestion of lactose in milk, could damage the ovary and possibly lead to ovarian cancer. since then a number of studies have tested this hypothesis. while the evidence isn't conclusive (some studies have supported this notion and other haven't), a positive link between galactose and ovarian cancer shows up too many times to ignore the possibility that it may be harmful.

*please forgive any typos ... a) my broken screen is hard to read and b) i typed all of this out by hand.

[carrie721]

the copyright says 2006. nuff said.

I guess that comes after your 2001 info yes?

which, as i said, was revised just last year (june 28th, 2005, to be exact, according to amazon). so your info is at MOST a year younger than mine, so you're going to ignore it? okay.

[DrummerDeanna]

Okay - but again - this is nothing new :shrug:

And we've already determined that Whole Milk is bad!!!!

The prostate and ovarian cancers links are possible links - still nothing concrete and conclusive....

And the hormones...well that issue is greatly lessened in organic milk.

Regardless of what some people think and even do studies on - Milk is a form on nutrients that isn't going to go away. In fact the organic milk industry is GROWING. In a recent story they said they could triple production and STILL not have enough milk for consumption....

That's really here nor there - just sayin'

[irishgrl]

which, as i said, was revised just last year (june 28th, 2005, to be exact, according to amazon). so your info is at MOST a year younger than mine, so you're going to ignore it? okay.

last time I checked, 2006 came AFTER 2005. therefore, Im assuming its taking your info into account and dealing with it accordingly. If you want to be the LONE RAT that STAYS on Ambyss' sinking ship, more power to you. Yo HO.

[DrummerDeanna]

so you're going to ignore it? okay.

Uh oh..you're starting to sound like someone else.....:eek:

And no one is ignoring it - but there is SO MUCH conflicting info - what do you believe? Apparently people will believe what they want to believe. I think that's the bottom line.

[carrie721]

also, since other people have difficulty with the fact that what amber posted is a "theory" and not "scientific fact," let's take a look at other scientific theories:

*quantum theory
*evolutionary theory
*atomic theory
*cell theory
*theory of special relativity
*theory of general relativity

etc ...

the word "theory" doesn't automatically imply that a concept is built upon shaky ground.

[irishgrl]

Well then, it comes down to AGENDAS. People do what they are comfortable with. They make choices based upon the sacrifices they have to make. The easier the sacrifice, the more virtuous the choice (ya know?) ie: I never smoked so I feel really good about the fact I can tell my Dr. that I dont have a nicotine problem......I never had to pinch pennies so I can feel good about the fact I shop at an organic co-op (and on and on)

[carrie721]

Okay - but again - this is nothing new :shrug:

And we've already determined that Whole Milk is bad!!!!

The prostate and ovarian cancers links are possible links - still nothing concrete and conclusive....

And the hormones...well that issue is greatly lessened in organic milk.

Regardless of what some people think and even do studies on - Milk is a form on nutrients that isn't going to go away. In fact the organic milk industry is GROWING. In a recent story they said they could triple production and STILL not have enough milk for consumption....

That's really here nor there - just sayin'

my point is just that the harvard school of public health isn't promoting milk consumption, is all.

last time I checked, 2006 came AFTER 2005. therefore, Im assuming its taking your info into account and dealing with it accordingly. If you want to be the LONE RAT that STAYS on Ambyss' sinking ship, more power to you. Yo HO.

oh please. the idea that my agreeing with amber makes me a follower is juvenile. agreeing doesn't mean that i didn't question data or that i'm stupid.

[irishgrl]

also, since other people have difficulty with the fact that what amber posted is a "theory" and not "scientific fact," let's take a look at other scientific theories:

*quantum theory
*evolutionary theory
*atomic theory
*cell theory
*theory of special relativity
*theory of general relativity

etc ...

the word "theory" doesn't automatically imply that a concept is built upon shaky ground.

um....go back and RE-READ Ambyss' posts. She acts as if HER research and HER opinions are the only rational ones to be had. Give me a BREAK!
She has CONSISTENTLY ATTACKED anyone who disagreed with her, even former (or current) friends. If what Ambyss posts is actually "THEORY" then somebody needs to INFORM her of that SALIENT POINT. ASAP.

[DrummerDeanna]

also, since other people have difficulty with the fact that what amber posted is a "theory" and not "scientific fact," let's take a look at other scientific theories:

*quantum theory
*evolutionary theory
*atomic theory
*cell theory
*theory of special relativity
*theory of general relativity

etc ...

the word "theory" doesn't automatically imply that a concept is built upon shaky ground.


So you're comparing a theory on why milk is bad to Quantum and Atomic theory?? Come on now Carrie!

And heh evolution is actually still considered a theory isn't it? They've not found the ever elusive "missing link" :p I'm kidding - but still....

Don't accuse the pro-milkers or not listening to anything when the anti-milkers are doing the same thing.

Also it IS about agenda...and opinion....

I will read until I'm blind the ways milk MIGHT be bad - but I'm drinkin' it because it's done ma body good :laugh:

[carrie721]

Uh oh..you're starting to sound like someone else.....:eek:

:rolleyes:

And no one is ignoring it - but there is SO MUCH conflicting info - what do you believe? Apparently people will believe what they want to believe. I think that's the bottom line.

i guess i want to believe that dairy isn't good for you because of my own personal experience and because what i've read makes scientific sense to me. :shrug:

[irishgrl]

my point is just that the harvard school of public health isn't promoting milk consumption, is all.



oh please. the idea that my agreeing with amber makes me a follower is juvenile. agreeing doesn't mean that i didn't question data or that i'm stupid.
btw: The Harvard School of Public Health is most certainly advocating Milk as a wonderful source of Calcium etc. you need to go back and re-read.

well, please explain to me what other purpose your support has? Because the FACTS prove you BOTH wrong. you may have an OPINION on the matter, but it doesnt change the FACTS.

and just to help you along, please go here (http://ledge.fleetwoodmac.net/showpost.php?p=564849&postcount=104)

[carrie721]

So you're comparing a theory on why milk is bad to Quantum and Atomic theory?? Come on now Carrie!

And heh evolution is actually still considered a theory isn't it? They've not found the ever elusive "missing link" :p I'm kidding - but still....

Don't accuse the pro-milkers or not listening to anything when the anti-milkers are doing the same thing.

Also it IS about agenda...and opinion....

I will read until I'm blind the ways milk MIGHT be bad - but I'm drinkin' it because it's done ma body good :laugh:

no ... no, i'm not comparing the two theories. i'm just saying that all of these things are still just "theories," but it doesn't mean we discount them. :shrug:

[irishgrl]

:rolleyes:



i guess i want to believe that dairy isn't good for you because of my own personal experience and because what i've read makes scientific sense to me. :shrug:

The only conclusion you can REASONABLY come to is that Dairy isnt good for YOU. PERIOD. You cant make judgements on how it affects the rest of society because (a) the supply isnt absolutely monitored and (2) even amongst ourselves, our bodies change and our symptoms change. Therefore, any blanket evaluation is STOOPID. SESLY. (does anyone besides me find that "phrase" tiresome?)

[carrie721]

The only conclusion you can REASONABLY come to is that Dairy isnt good for YOU. PERIOD. You cant make judgements on how it affects the rest of society because (a) the supply isnt absolutely monitored and (2) even amongst ourselves, our bodies change and our symptoms change. Therefore, any blanket evaluation is STOOPID. SESLY. (does anyone besides mem find that "phrase" tiresome?)

wow. you're obnoxious.

[JazmenFlowers]

wow. you're obnoxious.
wow. that was funny.

[irishgrl]

wow. you're obnoxious.

really? I wonder what your frame of reference is....because if you can overlook the myriad insults that your idol emits, then how can you even address the idea of "obnoxious?"

[bikerchic]

wow. that was funny.

Will you stop it with the fabulous banners already! I can't take it anymore :laugh: and I can't keep up!

[irishgrl]

wow. that was funny.

Yeah? well, Im not a sheep. whatever ELSE you might think I am. Personally, given the tendancy of most of the posters here to play "follow the leader," All I can say is, Im glad Im NOT in YOUR league.

[carrie721]

wow. that was funny.

:wavey:

really? I wonder what your frame of reference is....because if you can overlook the myriad insults that your idol emits, then how can you even address the idea of "obnoxious?"

whatever, dude. if you can't see that i can agree with someone without idolizing him/her, then i'm done.

[irishgrl]

whatever, dude. if you can't see that i can agree with someone without idolizing him/her, then i'm done.
well, something to be thankful for at least......

[JazmenFlowers]

Yeah? well, Im not a sheep. whatever ELSE you might think I am. Personally, given the tendancy of most of the posters here to play "follow the leader," All I can say is, Im glad Im NOT in YOUR league.
hey now. simmer down. I wasn't instigating or saying I agree; since I don't even know what you all are even discussing. I was browsing the thread and caught Carrie's comment. I just found it funny the way Carrie said it. she could have said "wow. eat ****." and I would have thought that was funny. that's what I was commenting on. so, don't go there.

and if by "YOUR league" you mean that I am Queen Bee...it's nice of you to take notice.

[JazmenFlowers]

Will you stop it with the fabulous banners already! I can't take it anymore :laugh: and I can't keep up!
don't you just love me! I'm trying to put myself in Guinness Book of World Records.

[irishgrl]

hey now. simmer down. I wasn't instigating or saying I agree; since I don't even know what you all are even discussing. I was browsing the thread and caught Carrie's comment. I just found it funny the way Carrie said it. she could have said "wow. eat ****." and I would have thought that was funny. that's what I was commenting on. so, don't go there.

and if by "YOUR league" you mean that I am Queen Bee...it's nice of you to take notice.

sweetie, you need to filter your 'browsing' a bit more. oh well.........as for Queen Bee? hasnt raised its ugly head yet. But if you hang in there Im sure you'll succeed.

[bikerchic]

don't you just love me! I'm trying to put myself in Guinness Book of World Records.

I think this current one is the best! Do you design them and think them up yourself? They are brilliant :thumbsup:

[JazmenFlowers]

sweetie, you need to filter your 'browsing' a bit more.
why? it's a message board...read what's interesting and comment.

I reply, therefore, I am.
oh well.........as for Queen Bee? hasnt raised its ugly head yet. But if you hang in there Im sure you'll succeed.
don't test my authority. :lol:

[JazmenFlowers]

I think this current one is the best! Do you design them and think them up yourself? They are brilliant :thumbsup:
mostly, yeah. I'm inspired...yeah, that's more like it. I kinda explained it in the Jim Carrey thread.

[SteveMacD]

I don't know if this helps, but I have managed to lose at least 85 pounds since March, 2005, 65 pounds of that since November, 2005.

My diet has been alternating between oatmeal and rice Chex in the morning and typically a Spinach leaf salad topped with prechopped chicken, and maybe other veggies (broccoli, onion, cauliflower, celery, carrots and cucumbers). No bread (unless it was soy free and wheat free), no snacks, no carbonated beverages of any kind, and no lunch (save for maybe a small can of V8). Meat kept to a minimum. Ingredients of products kept to a minimum (i.e. natural peanut butter, and even real butter). Lots of apple juice, orange juice, and especially water. Occasionally, I've added eggs, nuts, and other fruit, and have done "traditional" dinners (i.e. chicken breast or pork chop, a small serving of brown rice, and veggies) every so often. I've also learned to keep proportions much more balanced.

The big secret, though, was to avoid products that contain any soy in them, and that's about 80% of everything found in grocery stores. Since my diet has been mostly salad, it's been a bit of challenge finding dressings. Annie's has a nice selection (their Cow Girl Ranch is really good), and there a few other off-brands. But, be prepared to spend time looking at labels.

To be fair, I was on a medication called Isoniazid, which was for treatment of TB exposure. The "foods to avoid" list includes most cheeses, canned or smoked meats, caffeine, beer, red wine, chocolate, sour cream, soy sauce, bananas, overly ripe fruit, and yogurt, to name but a few. It was brutal early on, but now I couldn't imagine eating some of the things that were a part of my regular diet. I've lost weight, I haven't been sick for reasons not related to that medication, I have little to no joint pain (which means no more diet of two Lodine and six Advil a day...now just one Advil every three days at most), a lot more energy, and my skin is clearer.

While I wouldn't say I exercise on a frequent basis, I do things like take the stairs instead of the elevator, and I go up and down the stairs -two to three flights- at least five times a day, four days a week. However, I do try to do a four mile walk once a week. It's not easy in extreme weather, but I still try. Whenever I get a hunger pain, I usually drink water, get up, and move around for a minute or two to take the edge off.

Bottom line: As of today, I'm able to wear a size 31W-32L jean and size medium-to-large shirt, my lowest sizes as an adult. For perspective, in November, I was a size 38W-34L and 2XLT, and in 2000, I was a size 40W-34L, 2XLT (and sometimes 3XLT). All that, and I recently had eye surgery. I ran into some friends I hadn't seen in over a year, and they barely recognized me.

[amber]

^^^ That's awesome! Congrats! Why couldn't you eat soy? I have a similar problem avoiding hidden dairy ingredients in food, it is in everything.

[skcin]

^ Like in ranch dip? :cool:




I'M TEASING! :p Nobody freak out, nobody "take sides", nobody post any articles about the pros & cons of eating ranch - NOBODY PANIC!!! Sesly. Let's get back on track with the undereating thread & keep talking about food & calories - just not milk. 'kay?


OK, I just wanted to tell Steve that that's AWESOME! And I'm also curious about the soy thing. Oh, and if you don't mind me asking - how the hell were you exposed to TB? :shrug:

[DavidMn]

^ Like in ranch dip? :cool:




I'M TEASING! :p Nobody freak out, nobody "take sides", nobody post any articles about the pros & cons of eating ranch - NOBODY PANIC!!! Sesly. Let's get back on track with the undereating thread & keep talking about food & calories - just not milk. 'kay?


OK, I just wanted to tell Steve that that's AWESOME! And I'm also curious about the soy thing. Oh, and if you don't mind me asking - how the hell were you exposed to TB? :shrug:I had a friend taht was exposed to that once. He was really sick for awhile.:distress:

[BlackWidow]

never eat to get full and do lots of cardio...

[SteveMacD]

Why couldn't you eat soy? I have a similar problem avoiding hidden dairy ingredients in food, it is in everything.

For some reason, soy sauce was on the list of stuff to avoid. So, I decided to play it safe that I'd avoid soy altogether. That's when I noticed it was in everything, including bread. At first, my diet consisted mostly of turkey sandwhices. But I kept having skin problems, namely my skin was getting oily and breaking out. Then I went with the salad thing, and the skin got better. After a few weeks, I went out for Spaghetti, and I got sick and my skin got bad, probably from the bread sticks. It turns out I may have had a soy allergy, and maybe a wheat allergy, all along, but didn't know about it. I've had to learn not to eat on autopiolot.

Oh, and if you don't mind me asking - how the hell were you exposed to TB? :shrug:

I don't know for sure, but I have a few theories. It may have happened when I went to China in 1993. I worked for Adult Protective Services for about 3.5 years. Then I worked at a nursing home for about 4.5 months. After that, I worked for a rural Hospice for six months, and had to go into a few shadey nursing homes. Finally, I've been working at a daytime homeless shelter for about a year now. (To be fair, I was the only employee at this shelter to test positive, so it's not likely that I was exposed there.) When you live on the edge...:lol:

[skcin]

I don't know for sure, but I have a few theories. It may have happened when I went to China in 1993. I worked for Adult Protective Services for about 3.5 years. Then I worked at a nursing home for about 4.5 months. After that, I worked for a rural Hospice for six months, and had to go into a few shadey nursing homes. Finally, I've been working at a daytime homeless shelter for about a year now. (To be fair, I was the only employee at this shelter to test positive, so it's not likely that I was exposed there.) When you live on the edge...:lol:

Wow. I guess I should have asked "where have you worked that you weren't possibly exposed to TB?" :shocked: I'd bet on China too.

We get a lot of positive PPD tests here, mainly the international students. They do the chest Xray & recommend the INH, but most don't take it. Personally, I'd take it if I ever converted to +. But we haven't had an active TB case at the college in years.


Back on topic - I made egg drop soup the other day - very filling, lots of protein, low cal. You can use only egg whites if you want. :)

[UnwindedDreams]

Wow. I guess I should have asked "where have you worked that you weren't possibly exposed to TB?" :shocked: I'd bet on China too.

We get a lot of positive PPD tests here, mainly the international students. They do the chest Xray & recommend the INH, but most don't take it. Personally, I'd take it if I ever converted to +. But we haven't had an active TB case at the college in years.


Back on topic - I made egg drop soup the other day - very filling, lots of protein, low cal. You can use only egg whites if you want. :) Paula, with all these dishes that you tell us that you're making, you really should really be a gourmet/pro chef...I'm salivating thinking about all these dishes:lol:

[DrummerDeanna]

Back on topic - I made egg drop soup the other day - very filling, lots of protein, low cal. You can use only egg whites if you want. :)

You can make egg drop soup?? Is it hard? I LOVE egg drop soup - a recipe or recipe source would be very much appreciated :o

[skcin]

You can buy a mix at the store & add water & an egg. But I got a recipe from my Simple & Delicious magazine (which I highly recommend to anyone, regardless of whether you're dieting or not. Great simple recipes, most sent in by readers.) You get a new issue every 2 months, I think it's like $15 a year.

Here it is:

Egg Drop Soup
From Taste of Home's Simple & Delicious

INGREDIENTS


3 cups chicken broth

1 tablespoon cornstarch

2 tablespoons cold water

1 egg, lightly beaten

1 green onion, sliced


DIRECTIONS



In a large saucepan, bring broth to a boil over medium heat. Combine cornstarch and water until smooth; gradually stir into broth. Bring to a boil; cook and stir for 2 minutes or until thickened.
Reduce heat. Drizzle beaten egg into hot broth, stirring constantly. Remove from the heat; stir in onion. Yield: 4 servings.



1 WW point per serving. :D

Here's a link to the site. Best magazine subscription I've ever purchased.

http://www.bestsimplerecipes.com/default.aspx

[DrummerDeanna]

You can buy a mix at the store & add water & an egg. But I got a recipe from my Simple & Delicious magazine (which I highly recommend to anyone, regardless of whether you're dieting or not. Great simple recipes, most sent in by readers.) You get a new issue every 2 months, I think it's like $15 a year.

Anyway, I believe it was 2 cans chicken broth (you could use veggie broth if you wanted to) Bring it to a boil. Remove from heat. Beat 1 egg lightly (or 2-3 egg whites) and slowly drizzle into broth, stirring occasionally. The egg will clump up - just don't dump it all in at once or you'll have one giant scrambled egg in the soup. :p Add some salt & pepper to taste, and green onions if you like them.

Makes 3-4 servings, 1 WW point each. :D

Ooh 1 point!! That's amazing - I'm going to try this - thanks!!

[skcin]

Ooh 1 point!! That's amazing - I'm going to try this - thanks!!

Re-check my post - I got the actual recipe (without errors - I initially forgot the cornstarch to thicken) & edited.

[JazmenFlowers]

Re-check my post - I got the actual recipe (without errors - I initially forgot the cornstarch to thicken) & edited.
are you "officially" doing WW?

[DrummerDeanna]

Well I don't know about Paula - but I'm "officially" doing WW :)

Paula - I just plopped that Egg Drop Soup recipe into WW e-tools - you put in a recipe it gives you the point values - and even with the cornstarch it's 1 point per serving...I'm SOOO making this this weekend :blob1:

[SuzeQuze]

Well I don't know about Paula - but I'm "officially" doing WW :)

Paula - I just plopped that Egg Drop Soup recipe into WW e-tools - you put in a recipe it gives you the point values - and even with the cornstarch it's 1 point per serving...I'm SOOO making this this weekend :blob1:

Cool, that stuff sounds really good and so easy!

[DrummerDeanna]

Cool, that stuff sounds really good and so easy!

:nod: I've never attempted egg drop soup - but I LOVE it. So making it myself (thereby knowing what goes into it) is really appealing to me! I'm excited...

[SuzeQuze]

:nod: I've never attempted egg drop soup - but I LOVE it. So making it myself (thereby knowing what goes into it) is really appealing to me! I'm excited...

I want to make that now too, along with miso soup. Do you like that?

[DrummerDeanna]

I want to make that now too, along with miso soup. Do you like that?

I don't think I've ever had Miso Soup...what is it? What's a Miso? :laugh:

I'm always up for trying new soup!

[SuzeQuze]

I don't think I've ever had Miso Soup...what is it? What's a Miso? :laugh:

I'm always up for trying new soup!

It's Japanese, it's also got scallions but it has bits of tofu too. I don't know what miso means though! :lol:

[DrummerDeanna]

It's Japanese, it's also got scallions but it has bits of tofu too. I don't know what miso means though! :lol:

Ooh the bits of Tofu turns me off - the texture really bothers me :distress:

[irishgrl]

you may not want to eat it now:

Miso (Japanese: 味噌) is a thick paste, made by fermenting soybeans with sea salt and kōji. It is the product of fermenting rice, barley or soybeans with a mold culture, kōji-kin.[1] Often, grains such as barley or rice, and sometimes other ingredients, are added. Miso primarily tastes salty although the exact flavour is determined by the grains and procedures used in the fermentation process. Because of this variation, some types of miso can also be sweet.

[DrummerDeanna]

you may not want to eat it now:

[QUOTE]Miso (Japanese: 味噌) is a thick paste, made by fermenting soybeans with sea salt and kōji. It is the product of fermenting rice, barley or soybeans with a mold culture, kōji-kin.[1] Often, grains such as barley or rice, and sometimes other ingredients, are added. Miso primarily tastes salty although the exact flavour is determined by the grains and procedures used in the fermentation process. Because of this variation, some types of miso can also be sweet.QUOTE]

:laugh: You're right. There's no way I'm eating it now...:eek:

[irishgrl]

Geez! ya coulda cleaned up my quote at least! I didnt know it was messed up but I fixed it finally :nod:

[skcin]

are you "officially" doing WW?

Nah, I'm too cheap. :lol: I have an old book, and a points calculator that I copied from a friend.

BTW - I don't like miso soup, but I love egg drop.