Sources: Arrest made in JonBenet Ramsey case [Archive]

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gldstwmn

08-16-2006, 04:01 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/08/16/ramsey.arrest/index.html

Authorities have made an arrest in the JonBenet Ramsey case, law enforcement sources told CNN on Wedesday.

An investigator with the Boulder County, Colorado, District Attorney's office traveled to Bangkok, Thailand, and is bringing a suspect back to the United States, CNN's Denver affiliate KUSA reported.

The suspect was arrested Wednesday morning and has confessed to certain elements of the crime that are unknown to the general public, KUSA reported.

Prosecutors have not confirmed the identity of the suspect, but expect to hold a press conference later today.

JonBenet's beaten and strangled body was found in the basement of the family home in Boulder, Colorado, the day after Christmas in 1996. She was 6.

A grand jury investigation into the death of the child beauty pageant winner ended without charges in 1999.

The investigation focused a spotlight on the child's parents, John and Patsy Ramsey. Patsy Ramsey died in June.

The Ramseys said an intruder committed the crime, but they remained the subject of suspicion and speculation.

"The Ramseys left Colorado and had a house in Charlevoix, Michigan, where John Ramsey unsuccessfully ran for office in 2004, and in Atlanta, Georgia.

KarmaContestant

08-16-2006, 04:17 PM

skcin

08-16-2006, 04:19 PM

After all these years, to arrest someone so soon after Patsy's death? The whole thing's just weird & so tragic.

DrummerDeanna

08-16-2006, 04:25 PM

After all these years, to arrest someone so soon after Patsy's death? The whole thing's just weird & so tragic.

I was thinking the same thing. But this guy was apparently being held on unrelated sex charges in Bangkok - and according to authorities he has confessed to certain elements of the crime that are unkown to the general public. Should be interesting.

gldstwmn

08-16-2006, 04:28 PM

Isn't this amazing? I always was so convinced that Patsy had done it....guess I may have been wrong. Poor woman, to have died being accused of the crime, and to never know that the real criminal would be cought.

Though, I imagine she knows now. :angel:

Did you live here around the time of the murder? My god, every parent I knew was flipped out by this. And it was Christmas and that's all there was on the television. The cops I knew at the time swore that someone in the house committed the crime. I was never so sure. If this holds up, then I am glad they caught this monster. I feel such a sense of sadness for the family and everything they have been through.

SortaSavageLike

08-16-2006, 04:31 PM

If I ever get murdered I hope they spend just as long going after my killers. Unfortunately, I'm a guy, 20 years old, and not particuarly cute. :distress:

KarmaContestant

08-16-2006, 04:33 PM

Did you live here around the time of the murder? My god, every parent I knew was flipped out by this. And it was Christmas and that's all there was on the television. The cops I knew at the time swore that someone in the house committed the crime. I was never so sure. If this holds up, then I am glad they caught this monster. I feel such a sense of sadness for the family and everything they have been through.

I sure did. It was craziness!

I'll never forget seeing Patsy Ramsey at the Bluebird Theatre for a Nina Storey concert either. She was intriguing.

Livia

08-16-2006, 04:35 PM

Wild! It will be interesting to see how this unfolds. Who IS this guy? And who was he to the Ramsey family? Just some random intruder/pedophile stalker or someone they knew?

KarmaContestant

08-16-2006, 04:36 PM

Wild! It will be interesting to see how this unfolds. Who IS this guy? And who was he to the Ramsey family? Just some random intruder/pedophile stalker or someone they knew?

And to be arrested in Thailand, of all places. Hopefully there are more details tonight.

DrummerDeanna

08-16-2006, 04:41 PM

Well apparently Colorado authorities are on their way to bangkok..and John Ramsey (through his lawyer) issues a statement saying that Patsy knew about this particular investigation (of the arrested suspect) before her death.

mikeschmike

08-16-2006, 05:01 PM

If I ever get murdered I hope they spend just as long going after my killers. Unfortunately, I'm a guy, 20 years old, and not particuarly cute. :distress:

Your legacy of posting fabulous Stevie pictures will last forever. Far better then a pageant win and a zirconia clad tiara IMO.

jannieC

08-16-2006, 05:03 PM

After all these years, to arrest someone so soon after Patsy's death? The whole thing's just weird & so tragic.

My thoughts exactly.

I was so obssessed with this case for many years and I truly believed that if Patsy didn't committ the murder, that she knew what had happened. I was completely convinced of her guilt. Crazy.

Mad4stevie

08-16-2006, 05:05 PM

Wild! It will be interesting to see how this unfolds. Who IS this guy? And who was he to the Ramsey family? Just some random intruder/pedophile stalker or someone they knew?

They are saying he is from Conyers, Georgia, and that he is a 41 year old 2nd grade school teacher, who is a convicted sex offender.

This should be an example of how out of control things can get when the media and local police have a narrow view of things from the starting gate. This poor family has been through hell. I cannot imagine being accused of something so terrible and having the public totally think you are guilty no matter what you do or say. For gosh sakes, Patsy Ramsey took three separate polygraph tests by an independent examiner and they all came back that she was unequivocally not being deceptive.

There was NOTHING, except the fact that they could not exclude Patsy as the writer of the note, that connected them to the crime.

GODDESS6

08-16-2006, 05:22 PM

i too was so crazy about this story when it all happened, watching all the media reports & buying ANYYHING in print about it & i have to admit i was one of the guilty ones at 1st who thought becuz of what was being reported that patsy was guilty~ but as the yrs went on, & other things about the case were brought to light, including a t.v. special that said they thought a 19 yr old who commited suicide had done the crime, i just felt deep down the ramsey's were victims & not only lost their little girl, but there life there after & it breaks my heart, that even tho it is being reported that patsy knew of this investigation, she had to go to her grave never being fully exonerated publically, they so deserved that~ & on that note, may this be closure for them all & may jonbent & pasty rip!:angel: ~

irishgrl

08-16-2006, 05:24 PM

Patsy and John are vindicated but Patsy didnt live to appreciate it poor soul :distress:

I NEVER thought Patsy was behind it but I wondered about the dad....Im just glad the guilty party has been caught. now, hopefully JonBenet and Patsy can rest in peace :angel:

GODDESS6

08-16-2006, 05:40 PM

john mark karr...they just released his name~ they also just said his dna matches the dna on jonbent:distress: ~

gldstwmn

08-16-2006, 05:46 PM

I sure did. It was craziness!

I'll never forget seeing Patsy Ramsey at the Bluebird Theatre for a Nina Storey concert either. She was intriguing.

I feel like calling up that bastard detective, although I can't remember his name, that wrote that book about John and Patsy and went on national television and basically called them murderers. He should apologize to them in front of the whole world. If he had his way, they'd be in prison right now.
Nina Storey at the Bluebird? Haha...good times. The closest brush I ever had with the Ramsey case was Pasta Jay. Remember that dude? Turns out, he was right. This whole thing is kind of mindblowing.

gldstwmn

08-16-2006, 05:49 PM

Wild! It will be interesting to see how this unfolds. Who IS this guy? And who was he to the Ramsey family? Just some random intruder/pedophile stalker or someone they knew?

I don't know yet how he was connected to the family but the news is reporting that his DNA matches the DNA found in...I think it was her underwear? They are reporting him to be a second grade teacher from Conyers, GA byt the name of Jon (John?) Karr. :distress: Lord have mercy.

gldstwmn

08-16-2006, 08:02 PM

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=local&id=4468925

Ramsey Suspect's Bay Area TiesTaught In Petaluma School District
By Carolyn Tyler
Aug. 16 - KGO - An American citizen who once lived in the North Bay is now in custody in Thailand in connection with the murder of JonBenet Ramsey.

41-year-old John Karr and his then-wife, Laura, once lived in Petaluma. She told us they were married back in 1989 and lived in Alabama until the year 2000 when they moved to Petaluma.

Karr taught in the Petaluma School District as a substitute schoolteacher from December of 2000 until April of 2001. The district says they had no complaints about him. Karr also spent time as a teacher in Napa during the same period.

In the year 2001, Karr was charged with five counts of possessing child pornography. His teaching credential in Petaluma was suspended, then revoked for violating the education code.

He is still wanted in California. A warrant is still out for his arrest for failure to appear on those charges.

Laura Karr filed for divorce after her husband was charged in 2001. She says her husband did a lot of research on the JonBenet Ramsey case and also on Petaluma's own Polly Klaas.

She tells us she's devastated and embarassed by these murder charges, but she does not believe that her husband did it. She says that during Christmas season of 1996 when JonBenet Ramsey was strangled and beaten to death in Colorado, they were living in Alabama at the time and she was with him the entire Christmas season.

irishgrl

08-16-2006, 08:54 PM

and she was with him the entire Christmas season.

so they took a holiday trip to Colorado.....

arrgh...I feel sorry for that wife, but she may be in denial. I sure hope those two didnt have kids because if they did, chances are they are pretty messed up kids too...:distress:

SuzeQuze

08-16-2006, 09:20 PM

I was also consumed by this case and thought the parents might have had something to do with it but was never fully convinced. Although I was convinced they were really strange. But there was a detective pretty close to the case that insisted they were innocent and that things had been really botched up. I was leaning toward their guilt until I heard his side.

There were people in and out of that house during the initial stages of JonBenet's disappearance not really doing their job. They finally found her body in the basement after various officers had been in and out of the residence. No one had searched it. The whole thing was a mess. I hope the family can get closure now. What an awful tragedy. I guess Mr. Ramsey will never get over it but I hope he can get past it. :(

SteveMacD

08-16-2006, 10:28 PM

gldstwmn

08-16-2006, 11:02 PM

Personalized letter to John at the murder scene.

The suspect is in Thailand, and had connections with the sex trade.

The suspect was arrested shortly after Patsy's death.

Does it smell like obstruction of justice to anybody else?

We'll find out. At this point I'm leaning toward no involvement from the parents. This case has been something else.

David

08-16-2006, 11:04 PM

I was also consumed by this case and thought the parents might have had something to do with it but was never fully convinced. Although I was convinced they were really strange.I'm happy that innocent individuals may be cleared of these charges. I always like seeing genuine justice served. But I haven't changed my mind about these parents being rotten parents, dolling up their young daughter like that & parading her around in stupid, stressful pageants.

Gypsy-Rhiannon

08-17-2006, 03:11 AM

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/08/17/ramsey.arrest/index.html

(CNN) -- In a shocking twist to an already bizarre and riveting mystery, Thai police on Thursday said the man arrested in connection with the 1996 slaying of little JonBenet Ramsey has confessed to the crime.

Nearly a decade after the body of the child beauty queen was found in the basement of her family's sprawling Colorado home -- setting off a media sensation and years of speculation regarding her killer -- authorities on Wednesday had announced they had arrested a suspect halfway around the world.

A law enforcement official identified the suspect as John Mark Karr, 41, a former schoolteacher and an American citizen. A U.S. government source in Bangkok, Thailand, said Karr was arrested there Wednesday and was in Thai police custody.

Karr was arrested at his apartment in Bangkok, said Thai Immigration police Maj. Akkrapong Sunthornvipak. He spent Wednesday night at Bangkok's Immigration Detention Center.

Lt. Gen. Suwat Thamrongrisakul, chief of Thai immigration, said Thai police have a three-count U.S. arrest warrant charging Karr with first-degree murder, first-degree kidnapping and sexual child abuse. While not directly tying Karr's arrest to the Ramsey case, he said all of the alleged crimes took place in the United States in 1996 -- the same year JonBenet was killed.

Suwat said Thursday that Karr had confessed to killing JonBenet Ramsey.

According to Suwat, Karr's visa has been revoked and he is being interrogated by Thai and U.S. authorities. (Watch how DNA evidence could be key in the case -- 4:50)

The arrest was made after a tip from a U.S. agency working closely with Thai officials, Akkrapong said. Karr was undergoing questioning Thursday by Thai police "to find the ground for extraditing him," he said. There was no evidence Karr had committed a crime in Thailand, he said.

Mary Lacy, the district attorney in Boulder, Colorado, said in a written statement the suspect was arrested "following several months of a focused and complex investigation." Lacy's statement did not identify the suspect. (Watch how the investigation was a "complex" one -- 1:51)

Law enforcement officials said the suspect will be brought back to the United States. The investigation was being led by the Boulder County District Attorney's Office, along with U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, the officials said.

Two law enforcement sources told CNN the man was under investigation for an unrelated sex crime when information led to his arrest in the Ramsey case.

Law enforcement officials said the suspect was not known to investigators at the time. A warrant for his arrest was issued Tuesday night.
A horrific slaying

The arrest will likely dispel the cloud of suspicion that has hung over JonBenet's parents, John and Patsy Ramsey, ever since the girl's death on Dec. 26, 1996 in their Boulder home. (Watch John Ramsey react to news of the arrest -- 2:17)

It was John Ramsey who found his 6-year-old daughter's body. Earlier that morning, the girl had been reported missing, and Patsy Ramsey reported finding a three-page ransom letter demanding $118,000 on a staircase in the home.

Autopsy results showed JonBenet had received a massive blow to the head and was strangled with a rope that the killer tightened by twisting an attached paint brush handle.

The Ramseys maintained an intruder killed their daughter, but they remained the subject of suspicion and speculation in the case, which provided years of fodder for news networks and tabloids. Though no one was ever named as a suspect, at one point the Boulder police said the Ramseys were under "an umbrella of suspicion."
Officials: Online communications were key to probe

Karr confessed to some elements of the crime, law enforcement officials earlier told CNN, and had been communicating off and on with someone in Boulder who was working with law enforcement on the case. Earlier, CNN affiliate KUSA had reported that the elements the suspect had confessed to were unknown to the public.

Karr's online communications were a key part of the probe, the officials said.

The arrest came too late for Patsy Ramsey, who died in June of ovarian cancer at age 49. However, John Ramsey said he and his wife knew investigators were pursuing a suspect prior to her death.

"The investigation of the individual arrested today in connection with JonBenet's death was discussed with Patsy and me by the Boulder district attorney's office prior to Patsy's death in June," he said in a written statement. "So Patsy was aware that authorities were close to making an arrest in the case and had she lived to see this day, would no doubt have been as pleased as I am with today's development almost 10 years after our daughter's murder." (Read the full statement)

John Ramsey told KUSA on Wednesday, "I was notified this morning that an arrest had been made. I'm just absolutely impressed with the effort that went into accomplishing this by the Boulder DA's office and the other agencies that were involved. ... It's just beyond impressive what they accomplished."

But Ramsey also added a note of caution.

"Based on what happened to us, I don't think it's proper that we speculate or discuss the case," John Ramsey told KUSA. "It's important that justice be allowed to run its course and do its job."

"We have, in a sense, turned the justice process over to the media," he said. "I think it's gotten out of control."

Pam Paugh, Patsy Ramsey's sister, said, "I don't feel that I need to stand here and say to the world, 'I told you so.' We are a family that has lived on the truth, and the truth as we knew it was that neither John nor Patsy, Burke (JonBenet's older brother) nor any other family member had ever laid a hand on JonBenet." (Watch JonBenet's aunt react to the arrest -- 4:36)

Lacy's office has scheduled a news conference on Thursday.
Suspect's brother: 'Whole thing is ridiculous'

Ramsey attorney Lin Wood of Atlanta said Karr "has some background" in Conyers, Georgia, an Atlanta suburb, and at one point was a schoolteacher.

Karr's father and brother still live in metro Atlanta, in the suburb of Sandy Springs, but were not home Wednesday night. However, Karr's brother, Nate, told CNN: "This whole thing is ridiculous."

Asked by KUSA whether he knew the suspect, John Ramsey said, "I really can't comment on that. To my knowledge, no, I didn't, but I don't know enough yet (to say for sure)."

The Ramseys also lived in the Atlanta area before they moved to Boulder. The day after JonBenet was buried in the Atlanta suburb of Marietta, the Ramseys gave CNN an exclusive interview. "There is a killer on the loose," a tearful Patsy Ramsey said in that interview. "I don't know who it is. I don't know if it is a he or a she, but if I were a resident of Boulder, I would tell my friends to keep your babies close to you. There's someone out there."

Patsy Ramsey was laid to rest beside her daughter in Marietta. On Wednesday, a family friend taped a note to her grave. It read, "Dear Patsy, justice has come for you and John. Rest in peace."

Wood said he regretted "that Patsy's not here to be able to speak to you herself and express her feelings to you. I am confident she would urge the media to refrain from speculating about this individual, despite his arrest."

Speaking of John Ramsey, Wood said: "I know that he feels some sense of relief.

"I know that he feels that this is a major step, potentially, in the final resolution to the case. We may be, and I say may be, one step closer to the final resolution of the case. But again, I would urge that Mr. Karr be given the presumption of innocence."

A statement issued by another Ramsey attorney, Hal Haddon, said: "It is our hope that this arrest will bring some closure to the Ramsey family after a 10-year ordeal."

In 2003, a federal judge dismissed a libel-slander lawsuit against the Ramseys and said evidence suggested an intruder had killed JonBenet. The lawsuit had been filed by a freelance journalist whom the Ramseys had described as a suspect in a book they had written.

The Boulder County District Attorney's Office concurred with the judge's opinion the following month, saying there was little evidence against the couple.

Asked about the worst part of the whole ordeal, John Ramsey said, "The hardest part was losing a child, by far."

Kelly

08-17-2006, 08:01 AM

I hope there is truly a DNA match. I never thought Patsy was involved....esp after watching that retired homicide investigators story on Dateline. (I cannot remember his name but he showed how the intruder could have climbed in through the grated windows and stood on a suitcase etc)
Steve Thomas was the name of that creep investigator from Boulder who helped botch the case from day one. He was so unprofessional and had tunnel vision. His lack of experience did not help matters either. A bootprint found by the body, foreign DNA in her underpants, residue under her fingernails and the visciousness of the homicide all pointed away from the parents. I am so glad they finally have a suspect and Patsy was aware of this before she died. Poor woman suffered needlessly at the hands of the media and skeptics.

SuzeQuze

08-17-2006, 08:06 AM

I'm happy that innocent individuals may be cleared of these charges. I always like seeing genuine justice served. But I haven't changed my mind about these parents being rotten parents, dolling up their young daughter like that & parading her around in stupid, stressful pageants.

Oh me neither, those pageants are so inappropriate. I think the child enjoyed them though but she was so innocent not realizing she was being sexualized so young. :( It's just terrible.

SuzeQuze

08-17-2006, 08:15 AM

Livia

08-17-2006, 09:29 AM

This is wild...the sketch looks like him!

http://extras.denverpost.com/news/jon060400.htm

Ramseys post vision of killer

By Jeffrey Leib
Denver Post Staff Writer

June 4 - John and Patsy Ramsey have posted on their Web site a composite sketch based on a psychic's vision of their daughter's killer.

"Have you seen this man? This man may have been in the Boulder area in December 1996," reads a statement under the sketch at www.ramseyfamily.com.

The drawing shows a man with high cheekbones, tight lips and a receding hairline.

"We firmly believe that this most horrible of killers will be caught based on information provided by people who care about right and wrong," the Web site says.

"Please help, so another innocent child will not be a victim and another family will not suffer unbearable grief."

Their 6-year-old daughter, JonBene�t, was found beaten and strangled in the basement of her parents' Boulder home Dec. 26, 1996.

On Saturday, Boulder police chief Mark Beckner declined to comment on the composite sketch.

Psychic Dorothy Allison reportedly came up with her vision of a suspect in the Ramsey murder during a television appearance about two years ago.

For decades, she had offered her services to police departments around the country. Allison, who lived in New Jersey, died in December. She was 74.

In early 1992, Allison was contacted to assist in the search for Heather Dawn Church, a 13year-old who had been abducted from her home in Black Forest, near Colorado Springs, and murdered.

Even before Church's body was found, Allison called in with information that later proved to be accurate about the suspect who eventually was charged with the girl's murder, according to police investigators. But they said Allison's information was not used during the investigation.

"In 30 years, I've never had accurate information from a psychic," a veteran law enforcement officer told The Denver Post in 1995. "But the information by Dorothy Allison was right on the money." Neither the Ramseys nor their publicists could be reached for comment. Ironically, lawyers for the couple criticized former Boulder police detective Linda Arndt last year for substituting her "psychic impressions" for solid evidence during an appearance on a network television show, after Arndt had left the police force.

Arndt was the first Boulder detective at the Ramsey house on Dec. 26, 1996.

That day, Arndt told John Ramsey and a family friend to search the house. In her television interview last September, Arndt said when she saw Ramsey carrying the body of his daughter up from the basement, "my mind exploded. saw black with thousands of lights and everything I noted that morning that stuck out instantly made sense."

Attorneys for the Ramseys reacted quickly to Arndt's comments. "Her psychic impressions and "thousands of lights' are no substitute for evidence and do nothing to advance the search for JonBene�t Ramsey's killer," they said.

Gypsy-Rhiannon

08-17-2006, 10:44 AM

Gypsy-Rhiannon

08-17-2006, 10:49 AM

gldstwmn

08-17-2006, 10:51 AM

so they took a holiday trip to Colorado.....

arrgh...I feel sorry for that wife, but she may be in denial.

Agreed. I'm tempted to disbelieve her for some reason.

gldstwmn

08-17-2006, 10:58 AM

I wondered why no-one was replying to the thread I started! Didn't know there was another thread

I'm sorry dear. I didn't see it. :o I'll combine them. :)

Gypsy-Rhiannon

08-17-2006, 11:00 AM

I'm sorry dear. I didn't see it. :o I'll combine them. :)
No worries... yours was first anyway. Just me being blind! LOL!:thumbsup:

amber

08-17-2006, 02:48 PM

Livia - that is pretty creepy!

I just read the article on MSN, and has everyone already seen how creepy looking this guy is? :shocked:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y12/antisnark/jon060400.jpghttp://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y12/antisnark/2FBDFEB4A7B41CC1987D9C2E4D5599.jpghttp://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y12/antisnark/060817_karr_hmed_1250a.jpg

He is creepy looking, right? It's not just me? He looks like a mix of James Mason and the guy who played the pedophile in the movie "Happiness". I mean literally, if you mixed James Mason with that actor, you would get a guy that looks like this.

skcin

08-17-2006, 03:02 PM

^ Yes. Creepy. Head's too big & long for his body too.

DrummerDeanna

08-17-2006, 03:03 PM

skcin

08-17-2006, 03:08 PM

He IS creepy - but now all sorts of skeptics are creeping up - and there are some weird holes in his story...

So they're trying to determine if he's some sick wack-job obsessive - or if he's those things plus a murderer. I think it's already been determined 100% that he's a pedophile.

This whole thing is just crazy!

Like he's some freak who was completely obsessed with the case (like his ex said) but might not have anything to do with it? Wants notoriety? I guess it's possible (and very, very sick) but the cops have said he knew things tehre was no way he could have known unless he was involved.

DrummerDeanna

08-17-2006, 03:12 PM

Exactly, because he was oddly obsessed with this and Polly Klauss case. And now they're pointing out the inconsistencies. The one that I just read is that he claims he picked Jon Benet up from school the day he killed her, but it was Christmas - no school.

Also he said he drugged her, but the authorities claim there were no traces of drugs in her system :shrug:

I'm not sure what he confessed to that the public doesn't know - so who knows. Either way he's obviously a sicko.

amber

08-17-2006, 03:17 PM

wondergirl9847

08-17-2006, 03:39 PM

James Mason...I love him! He looks great in that photo too!

That guy is super creepy looking. Even if he didn't kill JonBenet...at least he's off the street. Sicko. :mad:

amber

08-17-2006, 03:52 PM

James Mason...I love him! He looks great in that photo too!

That guy is super creepy looking. Even if he didn't kill JonBenet...at least he's off the street. Sicko. :mad:

I love James Mason too. But seriously, no one can see how if you mix them together you get creepy jonbenet weirdo? Seriously?

estranged4life

08-17-2006, 04:22 PM

^ Yes. Creepy. Head's too big & long for his body too.

only other person I recall with such a mellon is Sen.John Kerry, whose mellon is so huge that it makes him appear to be Herman Munster's long-lost twin brother.

Brian "Sicko's head/neck looks like a watermelon on a toothpick" j.

BTFLCHLD

08-17-2006, 04:34 PM

Brian j. I was having a chitty day til I saw your siggy. :D Thanks!

estranged4life

08-17-2006, 10:37 PM

I don't know yet how he was connected to the family but the news is reporting that his DNA matches the DNA found in...I think it was her underwear? They are reporting him to be a second grade teacher from Conyers, GA byt the name of Jon (John?) Karr. :distress: Lord have mercy.

was used, and there's a match then they have their person...But according to what I just saw on my local news (From a reporter from Boulder) is that the officials are now starting to question if this admitance of guilt may be a sick hoax, this guy cannot be placed in Boulder at the time of her death and he skits the questions about his involvement, if at all, with the Ramsey family.

He said he drugged her, then raped her, but according to the autopsy reports she had no traces of any drugs in her system and the autopsy was inconclusive if a rape did happen.

Interesting stuff...

gldstwmn

08-18-2006, 10:49 AM

was used, and there's a match then they have their person...But according to what I just saw on my local news (From a reporter from Boulder) is that the officials are now starting to question if this admitance of guilt may be a sick hoax, this guy cannot be placed in Boulder at the time of her death and he skits the questions about his involvement, if at all, with the Ramsey family.

He said he drugged her, then raped her, but according to the autopsy reports she had no traces of any drugs in her system and the autopsy was inconclusive if a rape did happen.

Interesting stuff...

I know. There are a lot of questions. I'd like to know what the probable cause is for the arrest warrant. Hopefully it's not just his confession.

gldstwmn

08-19-2006, 10:42 AM

http://www.powerwurks.com/

estranged4life

08-19-2006, 11:10 AM

http://www.powerwurks.com/

is a full blown "whack-a-loon". I checked out the info provided on the above link and that is all the proof I need.

Btw, Am I the only one who thinks he looks somewhat like Lee Harvey Oswald?

Rickypt

08-19-2006, 01:11 PM

No question he's a nut and a pedophile. Question is did he really kill JB. So much doesn't make sense. He says it was all an accident, he was just having sex with her and she died. I thought she was strangled by something from some kind of hobby kit of her mom's.

I think the guy might be so crazy he has convinced himself he killed her.

It's certainly keeping the cable news shows busy, it's pretty much 24 hours of JB mania lately.

irishgrl

08-19-2006, 03:59 PM

that poor family....

goldustsongbird

08-19-2006, 05:42 PM

irishgrl

08-19-2006, 06:32 PM

I'm not saying he did it, but where is the brother in all of this? Has he ever spoken about it? If they were both sleeping in the basement that night (which is weird to me, considering they had this big, beautiful house; they had to have more than two bedrooms!), how is it that he wasn't awakened by whomever murdered her? I know he was only 9 at the time, but he's 19 now... and in everything I have ever seen re: this case, I've never seen him issue any kind of statement or anything. It's almost as if he doesn't exist!

:shrug:

as I recall, the brother DID hear stuff and was apparently talking about it but soon afterward, he sorta disappeared offa the radar screen. As for the kids sleeping in the basement, thats news to me, I thought JonBenet was taken to the basement?

goldustsongbird

08-19-2006, 06:49 PM

As for the kids sleeping in the basement, thats news to me, I thought JonBenet was taken to the basement?

I just found that out today; I saw a thing about it this afternoon on A&E. Apparently, when they returned home from that party, Jonbenet and her brother were taken downstairs to go to sleep. ???? If that is true, it makes no sense to me why their bedrooms would be down there, considering they're clearly not wanting for extra rooms (it was a 15 rm house, I believe).

Karlie

08-19-2006, 07:36 PM

I just found that out today; I saw a thing about it this afternoon on A&E. Apparently, when they returned home from that party, Jonbenet and her brother were taken downstairs to go to sleep. ???? If that is true, it makes no sense to me why their bedrooms would be down there, considering they're clearly not wanting for extra rooms (it was a 15 rm house, I believe).

Yeah, I think the kids' bedrooms were downstairs.

irishgrl

08-19-2006, 08:29 PM

Im posting a link to the timeline of the murder, to refresh the memories of the curious:
Ramsey Timeline (http://crimeshots.com/RamseyTimeline.html)
an excerpt:
June 26, 1998: An investigator at the district attorney's office questions Burke Ramsey for some six hours.

here is a transcription of an Enquirer article (yeah, I know I know, but they were RIGHT about OJ!!!) that talks about Burke's involvement...

RAMSEYS CHANGE THEIR STORY ABOUT MURDER NIGHT

By David Wright & Don Gentile

John and Patsy Ramsey have changed the story they told cops about their daughter JonBenet's murder -- they now admit their son Burke was awake during that Christmas 1996 nightmare!

In an exclusive ENQUIRER interview, the nation's most infamous murder suspects say Burke was jolted awake by screams in their Boulder, Colo. home.

"Burke knew something horrible had happened. He heard us screaming. He heard Patsy...a woman in terror," John confessed. "We thought he was asleep but he wasn't. Burke was awake.

"Burke was frightened. He had tears in his eyes. He knew something very, very wrong was going on."

Until being questioned by The ENQUIRER, the Ramseys had always insisted that Burke was still sleeping when police arrived at their home after Patsy's 911 call.

But now John has admitted to The ENQUIRER that Burke woke up before the 911 call was placed at 5:52 a.m. to summon police.

In the Ramsey's face-to-face, in-depth interview with The ENQUIRER:

* The Ramseys - who still staunchly proclaim their innocence - broke their silence about what Burke knows of the murder and revealed fears their son will explode emotionally from keeping "a lot inside."

* Even though it's almost inconceivable that John and Patsy wouldn't talk to Burke about the murder, they say they didn't find out Burke was awake the morning of the tragedy until he testified before a grand jury nearly two and a half years later!

* In chilling detail, the couple described the haunting nightmares and dreams they have about their murdered daughter.

* Patsy recently asked her dying mother to come back after her death and reveal JonBenet's murderer.

* John admits he saw the movie "Speed," which contains a key line found in the ransom note -- but claims he saw it on an airplane and didn't wear the headphones!

When the Ramseys arrived for the interview in Atlanta, oddly enough, Patsy gave an ENQUIRER reporter a hug -- then served up a dish of shamrock shaped St. Patrick's Day cookies.

In opening up about Burke for the first time, the Ramseys insisted they never once sat down with him to discuss the murder, but just said his sister "was gone...and was in heaven."

They also never told him they'd signed papers to make John's brother Burke's guardian if they were arrested.

The Ramseys were asked whether Burke, now 14, ever asked for details of JonBenet's death.

"He has never...we have never talked about anything," said Patsy, who wore a purple suit and white blouse.

John, looking weary in shirtsleeves, said they also never told Burke that they are suspects in the murder. But he revealed that an attorney he hired to represent Burke told the boy before he testified at a grand jury proceeding in May 1999.

"His attorney sat him down and said, 'Understand, they are suspicious of your parents. Do you have any questions?'"

Surprisingly, Burke said he didn't.

"He's a pretty quiet kid," said John.

John and Patsy worry that Burke is keeping things inside and they fear it will lead to an emotional blowup as an adult.

"Yeah, I worry, you betcha we do," John said with a sigh. "In fact that's one of the risks you have with a child with a traumatic experience like that.

"They keep a lot inside and they don't really start thinking about it until they get to be 40 years old and that's when it hurts."

Burke has been strangely quiet about his sister's murder, the Ramseys reveal. They say it wasn't until Burke's 1999 grand jury testimony that they found out he was awake before police arrived -- but was pretending to be asleep.

"Yeah, he testified to that. We thought he was asleep but he wasn't," said John, who had told police their son slept through the tragedy.

A source close to the case declared: "It's hard to believe that John and Patsy didn't find out until tow and a half years after the murder that Burke was awake.

"I know the reaction of the cops will be: 'Why didn't Burke tell them? Why couldn't he discuss his sister's death with them? Was it because Burke knew more than he dared to say about his parents' involvement?'

"Whatever the reason, John and Patsy have changed their story."

When asked when Burke woke up, John said it was after Patsy discovered the ransom note shortly after 5:30 a.m. Then he quickly changed his answer to say Burke woke up after the 911 call.

But then John changed his story again, calling The ENQUIRER as we went to press to say that Burke was awake BEFORE the 911 call. John told us:

"Burke recalled his mother screaming, 'Where's my baby?' and me saying, 'Calm down, calm down, we need to call the police.'"

John's admission that Burke was awake came after The ENQUIRER revealed to him and Patsy the details of our earlier exclusive report that Burke's voice is heard on an enhancement made of the 911 call. The youngster says, "What did you find?" and "What do you want me to do?"

John Ramsey tells his son, "We're not talking to you."

But Patsy still insists: "When I made that phone call, burke Ramsey was nowhere in the vicinity of the telephone."

Asked what goes through her mind when she recalls the events of JonBenet's death, Patsy gave a bizarre childlike answer.

"It kind of makes my heart go pitty-pat. I mean right now, I'm feeling like, gosh, this happened to my child."

During The ENQUIRER interview, Patsy admitted she considered and rejected the possibility that John was sexually abusing JonBenet. She openly admitted that during her struggle to defeat ovarian cancer between 1993 and 1994, John and Patsy's sex life suffered. She totally rejects the notion of John abusing JonBenet, but her reasoning is odd.

She said her mother "came to take care of the kids (when I had cancer). She slept in the other bed in JonBenet's room. I mean, if John was coming in to molest JonBenet, you know that's not going to happen 'cause Grandma was right there every night."

The Ramseys maintain that JonBenet's bed-wetting was not a problem.

"This bed-wetting is nonsense stuff...a red herring," said John.

Patsy added, her voice rising: "When children are really tired and they don't go potty before they go to bed, sometimes they have accidents."

But the close source declared: "The investigators will never buy Patsy's claim that JonBenet's bedwetting wasn't significant.

"Right after the murder, the Ramseys' housekeeper Linda Hoffmann-Pugh told police the bed-wetting was a big problem within the family."

In discussing the ransom note, the Ramseys were reminded of an ENQUIRER exclusive that revealed police believe it was written by a killer using their opposite hand.

Patsy, who is naturally right-handed, was asked if she can write with her left hand.

"Can I write with my left hand?" she said, pondering the question. A smile crossed her face and she replied: "I can-- but not very well."

She confirmed that to get a sample of her handwriting, police made her write the ransom note "every which way."

The ENQUIRER asked if her left-handed writing was legible.

"Oh, I don't know," she said, then changed her answer, saying it wasn't legible.

That contradicts a source close to the investigation who said her left-handed printing of the note was legible.

Both John and Patsy expressed a stunning ignorance about the most notable line in the ransom note, which reads, "Don't try to grow a brain, John."

Even though references to the line have appeared in published reports many times since JonBenet's murder, they said they were totally unaware that the words are nearly an exact repeat of a line from the movie "Speed."

"Oh, is that from that movie?" asked Patsy, her eyes opening wide.

John admitted he had seen the film but insisted there's no way he could have remembered the line.

"I watched part of 'Speed' on an airline one day -- without the headphones. All I see is this bus."

In the years since the murder, Patsy said she has been haunted by a recurring nightmare about that tragic Christmas night.

"I am in Boulder and walking the alleyways, the alleys behind our home -- and just searching and searching and searching. And you know I'll come upon a group of people standing there. And I'll say be careful, be careful, there's someone around here that's killing people. I have that dream over and over.

"I kind of picture myself sitting up kind of toward the Flatirons (part of the Rocky Mountains overlooking Boulder) and just wondering in which house the murderer resides."

John also has recurring dreams involving JonBenet -- but not as a 6-year-old, her age at the time of her death.

"She's usually about 2 or 3 years old and I'm holding her," John said, describing the dreams as "very comforting. I wake up with a very close feeling."

Patsy revealed she talked about her daughter -- whom she called Jonnie B. -- in her last conversation with her mother Nedra Paugh, who died recently.

"You know you're going to be with Jonnie B. soon and you're gonna know everything soon," Patsy said she told Nedra. Then she added: "If anybody can come back and tell me, I know she will."

Patsy was the last person to see JonBenet alive, sleeping in her bed -- "zonked," as she put it.

She said she kissed her daughter and recited the prayer, "Now I lay me down to sleep." But she can't remember if there was a blanket on the bed, or if it was the one JonBenet was wrapped in when her body was found in a windowless basement room the next day.

Pressed for further details of that night, Patsy responded like a woman who has had lawyers in her life for too many years: "It was 4 1/2 years ago. I have not rehearsed or reread my previous statements."

In closing, Patsy said she "would love nothing more from The National ENQUIRER than to say "The ENQUIRER finds the killer.'" And if that happened, she added "I'll be your poster for for the rest of my life."

Boulder Police Chief Mark Beckner would not comment on the Ramsey interview.

But in a gloomy assessment of where the case stands, he told The ENQUIRER: "there's really not much happening right now."

The Ramseys remain under an umbrella of suspicion.

here is another article:
The JonBenet Ramsey Case
JonBenet's brother questioned for 6 hours

Investigators reveal little about interviews but say Burke Ramsey answered all questions

By Lisa Levitt Ryckman
Rocky Mountain News Staff Writer

Burke Ramsey spent six hours answering questions earlier this month from an investigator working with the Boulder District Attorney's office, the 11-year-old's lawyer said Thursday.

The interviews were conducted with the consent and cooperation of Burke's parents, John and Patsy Ramsey, who have spent the past three days being questioned themselves by the district attorney's office in Boulder.

"There were no conditions," Atlanta attorney Jim Jenkins said of the interviews with Burke, which took place in two-hour sessions June 10-12 at a district attorney's office in the Atlanta area.

"Burke answered every question to the best of his memory and ability," Jenkins said.

Neither Boulder police nor District Attorney Alex Hunter consider Burke a suspect in the death of his 6-year-old sister, JonBenet, whose battered body was found in the basement of the family's Boulder home on Christmas night 1996.

John and Patsy Ramsey have been under suspicion in the killing but have insisted they are innocent. They have had a troubled relationship with the police, who they believe have failed to properly investigate the case. They last talked to police more than a year ago.

But the Ramseys have kept in touch with Hunter's office through investigator Lou Smit, with whom they have spoken on a number of occasions during the past 18 months. The police turned the case over to Hunter earlier this month, but he has yet to decide whether he will grant their request to convene a grand jury in the matter.

Burke, who has been interviewed twice before, was alone when questioned by district attorney's investigator Dan Schuler, a 24-year veteran of the Broomfield Police Department who holds master's degrees in psychology and counseling and specializes in juvenile cases. His mother brought him to the interviews but neither parent was present during the interviews.

Jenkins, who also represents John Ramsey's ex-wife, Cindy Ramsey, and their children, Melinda and John Andrew, watched Burke's interviews from an observation room with Deputy District Attorney Peter Hofstrom.

Videotapes of the first day's interview were sent overnight to Boulder police detectives, district attorney staff and their consultants to prepare for the next day's interviews.

"I feel that everybody involved in the interviews from both sides worked in a cooperative and conscientious manner to make this important step forward a reality," Jenkins said.

"Burke's position is, if there's any other way he can help, he stands ready."

Defense attorney Jeralyn Merritt said the extensive interviews with the Ramseys and son Burke could well preclude the need for a grand jury.

"If the Ramseys and their son have now given lengthy interviews and answered every question of the authorities as if they had been in front of a grand jury, then there would be no need to call a grand jury," Merritt said.

The interviews help everyone, she said. The district attorney gets to ask his questions, the police get to feed their questions to the DA and the Ramseys get to state their case to the DA, Merritt said.

"Everyone is accommodated."

June 26, 1998

it bears noting that Burke has sued certain media for their involvement in sullying his name. link (http://crimeshots.com/Burke.html)

David

08-19-2006, 08:39 PM

It's certainly keeping the cable news shows busy, it's pretty much 24 hours of JB mania lately.Particularly Greta van whatshername. Her yearround programming fodder is virtually all unsolved crimes or being-solved crimes. She must have spent four months alone on that damn cruise ship story. I get reaaaaaaally sick of the johnny-one-note news coverage. Vary it! Shake it up a little. Instead, if one story "works," they run it into the ground--just what Lindsey said about the record industry.

gldstwmn

08-19-2006, 11:46 PM

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/man-who-says-he-killed-jonbenet-was-set-for-sex-change/2006/08/20/1156012401025.html

Karr was eyeing sex change

The man who confessed to killing JonBenet Ramsey had another bizarre secret up his sleeve in the months before his arrest - he was visiting a surgical centre that specialises in sex-change operations.

Staff at the Pratunam Clinic, Thailand's top transgender centre, told the New York Daily News yesterday that 41-year-old John Mark Karr was a patient of theirs - but wouldn't say how close he was to getting "sexual reassignment" surgery.

"Yes, he had treatment here," a representative said. "He was our patient. He came a number of times. But we cannot give out details on his treatment as we are ethically bound to keep these things private."

The disclosure came a day after The News reported that Karr sought cosmetic surgeons' help changing his face in Bangkok. In his nine months there, he made 12 phone calls from his hotel room - nine of them to plastic surgeons.

Full article at the link.

desertangel

08-20-2006, 01:51 AM

Exercising my right to free speech:

My opinion of this guy is that he's a wacked-out-sick-psycho-freak in need of attention and he's getting off on this big-time. I think he needs to be thrown in a cave and have a big stone rolled in front of the opening so he doesn't get any attention of any kind. I also think he's lucky somebody in that throng of people didn't try to off him. If he gets sent to prison they better segretate him.

And why is it this song comes to mind... ?

Can I touch you to see if you're real?
Cause in nothing there's something I feel,
Can my heart take the strain?
Or will it break down again?

In your lips I sense a danger
And you've got the eyes of a stranger.

Have I been sleeping for all these years?
Is it magic that makes you appear?
When I stepped in the room I felt my heart race
But you acted rude when I looked at your face

In your lips I sense a danger
You've got the eyes of a stranger
In your lips I see a danger
You've got the eyes of a stranger

You've got that look in your eyes
Your eyes, You've got that look in your eyes
In your eyes

In your lips I sense a danger
And you've got the eyes of a stranger
In your lips I see a danger
And you've got the eyes of a stranger
you've got the eyes of a stranger
and you've got the eyes of a stranger
you've got the eyes of a stranger
you've got the eyes of a stranger

gldstwmn

08-20-2006, 01:24 PM

http://www.forbes.com/entrepreneurs/feeds/ap/2006/08/20/ap2960912.html

JonBenet Ramsey Suspect En Route to U.S.
By JOCEYLN GECKER , 08.20.2006, 12:19 PM

John Mark Karr, the suspect in the murder of 6-year-old JonBenet Ramsey, sipped champagne and ate king fried prawns in business class Sunday after being put aboard a flight to Los Angeles to face charges in the United States.

As Karr dined like a tycoon and chatted with the U.S. officials escorting him, Thailand was abuzz with reports that Karr sought treatment at a Thai sex-change clinic.

Karr, who was not charged with any crime in Thailand, was being expelled because he is regarded as an undesirable person. He was not being extradited.

He and three U.S. officials boarded a Thai Airways International flight that took off about 8 p.m. (9 a.m. EDT) for the 15-hour flight to Los Angeles. Karr's journey will eventually end in Boulder, Colo., where he is expected to face charges of first-degree murder, kidnapping and child sexual assault in connection with the young beauty queen's 1996 killing.

Thai police whisked Karr into the immigration and customs zone at Don Muang International Airport from an immigration jail in Bangkok. At the departure gate, he chatted amiably with fellow passengers.

On the plane, the 41-year-old teacher sat in a business class window seat next to Mark Spray, an investigator with the Boulder District Attorney's office. He was not handcuffed. A U.S. Embassy official and an agent with "Homeland Security" emblazoned on his T-shirt were also part of the escort party.

Before takeoff, Karr took a glass of champagne from a cabin attendant and clinked glasses with Spray, who had orange juice.

Dinner was served on a starched white tablecloth. Karr started with a pate, then had a green salad with walnut dressing. The main course was fried king prawn with steamed rice and broccoli. Karr drank a beer, crushing the can with his hands when it was empty, then moved on to a glass of French chardonnay with his main course.

Karr was relaxed, smiling and chatting nonstop with the U.S. officials next to him - until television news crews on the flight turned their cameras on. Then he stopped smiling, clutched the armrests of his seat and stared at his lap.

Karr did not speak to reporters, but at one point summoned an AP reporter over to his seat. He mentioned an interview she had given, recalling that someone asked her what he was like.

"You said I looked you straight in the eye when I talked to you and I want to tell you I appreciate that, I thought it was nice," Karr told the AP reporter.

gldstwmn

08-20-2006, 05:05 PM

http://denver.yourhub.com/Blog.aspx?contentid=115686

Ramsey arrest: Rolling the dice?

Contributed by: Travis Henry/YourHub.com on 8/19/2006

Many of the talking heads and former prosecutors discussing John Karr's arrest insist that there must be some evidence we aren't seeing.

District Attorney Mary Lacy must have an ace up her sleeve, they claim. There is no chance this man would be a legitimate suspect based just on his bizarre conversations to a University of Colorado professor who makes movies about JonBenet Ramsey.

The public certainly hopes that's true.

And then I remember back to June 2002. Boulder police arrested sex offender Jason Kalami Mook on suspicion of sexually assaulting an autistic boy at a Boulder YMCA.

The district attorney's office took the case and did everything they could to prosecute despite the fact the accuser claimed his attacker was taller than him, when in reality Mook was 5 feet 8 inches tall and the boy was 6 foot 2.

The district attorney's office took the case to a preliminary hearing despite the fact the boy said there were no tattoos on his attacker, but Mook had a large tattoo on his left arm and tattoos on his hands.

They kept trying the case despite the boy's claim his attacker was hairy and Mook was not.

The district attorney's office refused to drop the case even after learning the boy falsely accused a schoolmate of sexual assault.

Here's the kicker. They wanted to try the case even though DNA evidence gathered in the case didn't match Mook.

I sat there bewildered in hearing after hearing while this case progressed. At one point I went to District Attorney Mary Lacy and showed her the stories I had written about the case and expressed my concern. I was hoping she knew something that I didn't.

To her credit, she seemed to listen to me and didn't dismiss my observations.

After Mook spent nearly eightmonths in jail on the alleged assault, the district attorney's office finally dismissed the charges after the boy said he couldn't be certain Mook assaulted him.

Prosecutor Rob Shapiro blamed losing the case on bad luck.

"We just had no evidentiary luck in this case," Shapiro said. "The luck that was needed in this case didn't exist through no fault of anybody. It just wasn't there."

Luck?

Mook's attorney, Public Defender Steve Jacobson was incensed.

"I believe prosecutors are supposed to make their decisions based on the quality of evidence they have and not on the roll of the dice as to the hope of what they may find," Jacobson said.

The JonBenet Ramsey case is much more high profile than the Mook case, and it would be foolish to think they are relying on luck to catch her killer.

But then I am reminded about the so-called CU recruiting scandal which was a high profile case.

They actually charged CU wide receiver Ron Monteilh with supplying marijuana to high school recruits during a party where a woman claimed she was gang raped by players and recruits.

Charges were later dismissed the case saying that Monteilh was "misidentified." He wasn't even there.

Is that just bad luck for the Boulder County District Attorney's Office?

Maybe luck will turn around in the Ramsey case.

But I wouldn't bet on it.

amber

08-20-2006, 05:15 PM

But he still has to deal with the old warrant for his arrest in Petaluma (?) even if he didn't kill Jonbenet.

irishgrl

08-20-2006, 06:04 PM

This guy seems awfully nonchalant for a man about to go thru Hell :shrug: Champagne and King Prawns? clinking glasses?
chatting affably? hmmmm its a head scratcher alright...

gldstwmn

08-20-2006, 06:27 PM

This guy seems awfully nonchalant for a man about to go thru Hell :shrug: Champagne and King Prawns? clinking glasses?
chatting affably? hmmmm its a head scratcher alright...

I've never seen anything like it. :distress:

SuzeQuze

08-21-2006, 10:27 AM

I've never seen anything like it. :distress:

It's because he's insane. I'm not optimistic they actually have any hard evidence in this case. Hopefully I am wrong. I am highly anticipating the disclosure of the evidence they do have. It will probably be a while.

Regarding that Enquirer article, I am suspect that the Ramseys ever did an interview with them. Why would they give that rag an interview? It doesn't seem to fit their behavior pattern with the media. They seemed very careful of what and how they would disclose.

irishgrl

08-21-2006, 11:28 AM

Its been too long for me to vouch for but I do remember that all the tabloids were VERY interested in solving this case. And the Enquirer actually gained some credibility when it verified that OJ Simpson actually DID own a pair of Bruno Magli shoes (remember? he claimed he wouldnt "wear those ugly ass shoes" and then the Enquirer had that photo to prove him wrong). Ever since the Enquirer lost that lawsuit to Carol Burnett, they've tried to clean up their reporting and have been careful to attribute their sources and to be more accurate in their wording :shrug:

Possibly (again, its too long for me to say for sure) the Ramseys felt that the Enquirer was the most persistent in their coverage and decided to give an interview? I dont know....

estranged4life

08-21-2006, 12:45 PM

a thousand words:

<div align=center><img src="http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/features/breen/archive/20060819_breen.gif"></div>

Rickypt

08-21-2006, 01:37 PM

SuzeQuze

08-21-2006, 02:10 PM

I'm trying to figure out why Entertainment Tonight's website and show is so focused on this case. What does any of this have to do with entertainment?

The nation's obsession with this one case is unhealthy, imo.

Yes it's sick but I find myself just as obsessed. It incites a visceral response and you just feel like you have to pay attention. It is extra sick that it is on an entertainment show, I agree, because it is hardly that. :(

irishgrl

08-21-2006, 02:34 PM

wouldnt it be fair to say that Americans are incredulous that this crime hasnt been solved after all this time? :shocked:

Rickypt

08-21-2006, 02:40 PM

wouldnt it be fair to say that Americans are incredulous that this crime hasnt been solved after all this time? :shocked:

I don't really buy into that. Americans don't care about the zillion other crimes that haven't been solved. She is hardly the only little girl found dead by her parents with no killer found.

I'm not saying I don't care about what happened or catching the killer. And I'm not saying people here are obsessed.

Americans are obsessed with this because the media became obsessed with it. And that happened because of the whole beauty pageant component and JB's looks.

Rickypt

08-21-2006, 02:41 PM

It incites a visceral response and you just feel like you have to pay attention. (

I get that. I'm paying attention also.

SuzeQuze

08-21-2006, 02:59 PM

I don't really buy into that. Americans don't care about the zillion other crimes that haven't been solved. She is hardly the only little girl found dead by her parents with no killer found.

I'm not saying I don't care about what happened or catching the killer. And I'm not saying people here are obsessed.

Americans are obsessed with this because the media became obsessed with it. And that happened because of the whole beauty pageant component and JB's looks.

Yes, it's partly the pageants because most of us weren't even aware of them. Those images have been emblazoned in our minds. But I think the fascination also has to do with a well-off family having something so awful happen to them. It gives you the feeling that everyone is vulnerable. Also, I think there is something in the collective unconscious of "regular" people that gets satisfaction out of seeing wealthier people suffer. Perhaps it isn't even statisfaction so much as awe since most people think more money would solve their problems. How could this happen? It is baffling.

strandinthewind

08-21-2006, 03:10 PM

. . . Also, I think there is something in the collective unconscious of "regular" people that gets satisfaction out of seeing wealthier people suffer. Perhaps it isn't even statisfaction so much as awe since most people think more money would solve their problems. How could this happen? It is baffling.

I think this as well. I also think it morphs into the rich somehow deserve it argument and we love to see them fall, on all levels, not just the murder of an innocent girl. I think many Americans were digusted by the whole pageant idea and the odd images of that little girl looking so adult. I think that image made them think Patsy was wholly to blame for the murder because Patsy's vehemence in putting her daughter in those shows (which are not cheap) somehow made her responsible for the girl's death. I think the two are unrelated, but people seem keen of making a connection of some kind. I do get that the murderer could have been enticed by seeing her in a show, but he could just as easily have seen her in the park, grocery store, etc. - which sadly happens often.

As for this guy, he seems way too content right now and until we see the evidence (which is all that is important in this case) we will not know for sure. Given that this creep has stalked anyone and everyone even remotely related to this case, I get the feeling that he obtained some non-public information and is using that to accept blame for a crime he did not commit. I mean how was putting a rope around her neck an accidental killing?

It just does not add up. But, there was DNA under her nails. So, maybe that will be dispositive.

gldstwmn

08-21-2006, 03:10 PM

I'm trying to figure out why Entertainment Tonight's website and show is so focused on this case. What does any of this have to do with entertainment?

The nation's obsession with this one case is unhealthy, imo.

To a certain extent, it is. As a parent, it plays on our worst possible fears. It's unconscionable that someone could sneak into your home on Christmas and do this to your child.

gldstwmn

08-21-2006, 03:12 PM

wouldnt it be fair to say that Americans are incredulous that this crime hasnt been solved after all this time? :shocked:

The whole thing has been a train wreck. I am not holding out much hope for this guy as a suspect at this point.

Livia

08-21-2006, 04:03 PM

I'm so glad he enjoyed his prawns and champagne in business class. Compliments of the taxpayers. That disgusted me.

Yeah, at this point, I'm torn. Either he did it or he's a media whore.

irishgrl

08-21-2006, 04:05 PM

I think this as well. I also think it morphs into the rich somehow deserve it argument and we love to see them fall, on all levels, not just the murder of an innocent girl. I think many Americans were digusted by the whole pageant idea and the odd images of that little girl looking so adult. I think that image made them think Patsy was wholly to blame for the murder because Patsy's vehemence in putting her daughter in those shows (which are not cheap) somehow made her responsible for the girl's death. I think the two are unrelated, but people seem keen of making a connection of some kind. I do get that the murderer could have been enticed by seeing her in a show, but he could just as easily have seen her in the park, grocery store, etc. - which sadly happens often.

As for this guy, he seems way too content right now and until we see the evidence (which is all that is important in this case) we will not know for sure. Given that this creep has stalked anyone and everyone even remotely related to this case, I get the feeling that he obtained some non-public information and is using that to accept blame for a crime he did not commit. I mean how was putting a rope around her neck an accidental killing?

It just does not add up. But, there was DNA under her nails. So, maybe that will be dispositive.

oh GEEZ Suze, you got him going :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :p

SuzeQuze

08-21-2006, 04:38 PM

oh GEEZ Suze, you got him going :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :p

:lol: I like getting Jason going, VROOM! ;)

strandinthewind

08-21-2006, 04:50 PM

So neither of you prejudged the mother just a little because of the pag. stuff :shrug:

irishgrl

08-21-2006, 04:51 PM

The whole thing has been a train wreck. I am not holding out much hope for this guy as a suspect at this point.

ya know, I think you're right, sad to say. I was really hoping this was a done deal but alas, I just dont think so any more...

irishgrl

08-21-2006, 04:53 PM

So neither of you prejudged the mother just a little because of the pag. stuff :shrug:

not ME, I always felt Patsy was innocent herself. I did wonder about John and that maybe he had her covering for him, but I didnt fault Patsy for being a "showbiz mom" nosir.

Rickypt

08-21-2006, 04:58 PM

So neither of you prejudged the mother just a little because of the pag. stuff :shrug:

I did. :wavey: Totally guilty of that.

Rickypt

08-21-2006, 05:00 PM

Yeah, at this point, I'm torn. Either he did it or he's a media whore.

Or completely psycho, which I think is the case.

estranged4life

08-21-2006, 05:10 PM

I did wonder about John and that maybe he had her covering for him, but I didnt fault Patsy for being a "showbiz mom" nosir.

because of recent reports saying he is very much considering leaving the US due to the media invading his home in Michigan.

Seems kinda strange to me.

Kinda interesting that the news just reported that authorities found something coincidental written in Karr's high school year book, The saying "Shall Be The Conqueror", which is similar to the "S.B.T.C." that was signed on the ransom note :shrug:

irishgrl

08-21-2006, 05:15 PM

I hadnt heard that bit about John thinking about leaving....hmmmmmm
makes me wonder about him even more ya know?

Livia

08-21-2006, 05:17 PM

There were other wild things in the ransom note: one of Dennis Hopper's lines from the movie, "Speed," and other movie lines from kidnapping films.

I watched a LOT of coverage this weekend. I love that one investigator, the older, bald guy. The one who figured out that JB was stun-gunned by an intruder and then brought down to the basement. He also had an explanation as to why a neighbor heard a child screaming, yet no one in the house woke up. A vent that ran from the basement to the outdoors, acted as a megaphone, although no one inside the house could hear anything. I remember this same guy piecing everything together - and I also believed it was an intruder. But I used to believe that the parents were covering for someone (like the brother, or another male relative). I don't believe that anymore.

estranged4life

08-21-2006, 05:20 PM

I hadnt heard that bit about John thinking about leaving....hmmmmmm
makes me wonder about him even more ya know?

seems fishy to me.

As for people being entralled with the coverage of an unsolved murder, there's a motion picture soon to be released about another unsolved murder from January 1947, "The Black Dahlia Murder", which shows that people find the unsolved somewhat 'entertaining'.

Livia

08-21-2006, 05:20 PM

Or completely psycho, which I think is the case.

I think it's clear he IS a pyscho, to some degree. He's already got the pedophile history.

estranged4life

08-21-2006, 05:25 PM

I think it's clear he IS a pyscho, to some degree. He's already got the pedophile history.

wonder if he admitted to this crime to escape possible child sex crimes in Thailand. If memory serves me right I thought I once read that the sentences are extremely harsh in those cases in Thailand (ie-Death and/or dismemberment of digits.)

irishgrl

08-21-2006, 05:31 PM

wonder if he admitted to this crime to escape possible child sex crimes in Thailand. If memory serves me right I thought I once read that the sentences are extremely harsh in those cases in Thailand (ie-Death and/or dismemberment of digits.)

but, all of the stuff I've read so far says he HASNT been accused of any sex crime in Thailand ??? if you know different, would you post the info?

estranged4life

08-21-2006, 05:42 PM

but, all of the stuff I've read so far says he HASNT been accused of any sex crime in Thailand ??? if you know different, would you post the info?

about how those in the world can find unsolved murders as 'entertaining'.

One minute the media said he had been arrested for child sex crimes in Thailand (Like you I havent heard anything about any arrest, He was never in custody until he stepped on US soil...But there was talk on national news he may have been close to being arrested, that's if that was actually a fact or more spectulation-That's what we discussed initially about why he may have admitted to this crime), that he was there for a possible sex change operation (According to the chief surgeon at this facility for sex change operations, he doesnt know anything of Karr or recall him even being a patient).

This is one weird case with one strange individual in the middle being a 'glory seeker' who has made it even weirder.

Rickypt

08-21-2006, 05:52 PM

not ME, I always felt Patsy was innocent herself. I did wonder about John and that maybe he had her covering for him

And covering for John would make her innocent.....how? :shrug:

Livia

08-21-2006, 11:34 PM

http://www.perezhilton.com/topics/legal_matters/snake_on_a_plane_20060821.php

macfanken

08-22-2006, 01:08 AM

I just want to know... has Nancy Grace's head exploded yet?

irishgrl

08-22-2006, 06:27 AM

And covering for John would make her innocent.....how? :shrug:

What I meant was, I dont think (and never did) that Patsy was guilty of murdering her own daughter. I wondered if John had done something and forced Patsy to cover for him. This of course wouldnt make her innocent if she cooperated with him (assuming he was guilty) but if anything she would be an accessory AFTER the fact and she would have a defense to that. Of course, this is all speculation and in Patsy's case a moot point.

GODDESS6

08-22-2006, 06:50 AM

about how those in the world can find unsolved murders as 'entertaining'.

One minute the media said he had been arrested for child sex crimes in Thailand (Like you I havent heard anything about any arrest, He was never in custody until he stepped on US soil...But there was talk on national news he may have been close to being arrested, that's if that was actually a fact or more spectulation-That's what we discussed initially about why he may have admitted to this crime), that he was there for a possible sex change operation (According to the chief surgeon at this facility for sex change operations, he doesnt know anything of Karr or recall him even being a patient).

This is one weird case with one strange individual in the middle being a 'glory seeker' who has made it even weirder.

brian i heard all of this too about this freak, they thought he might of confessed to the jonbenet killing becuz he might of done something over in thailand & thought he was about to be arrested there~ they say he was weighing which would be better thailand prison vs US prisons~ they also talked about him in signing up for sex re-assignement, where so far all he had completed was laser hair removal of some sort~ i think this was all on msnbc~
i'm not so sure of his guilt now, his hearing is today for extradition & maybe it'll shed more lite~ i was hoping that tho the authorities haven't said, that they do have more than just a few emails & statements from this loon, i mean to bring all the media attention back & to have this guy be lying would be so tragic:distress: ~ i remember last week the media was talking to patsy ramsey's sister & she said authorities said they had a dna match~ then when the boulder police hold their press conference they say no such thing has happened as of yet~ it is all so sketchy, do i hope it's the guy?, yeah, so the family can have some closure, even tho the heartache will always remain for the loss of jonbenet:angel: ~ it is all just so sad:( ~

MacMan

08-22-2006, 06:57 AM

I just want to know... has Nancy Grace's head exploded yet?

:laugh: That woman kills me! She's fun to watch actually.

SuzeQuze

08-22-2006, 06:58 AM

because of recent reports saying he is very much considering leaving the US due to the media invading his home in Michigan.

Seems kinda strange to me.

Kinda interesting that the news just reported that authorities found something coincidental written in Karr's high school year book, The saying "Shall Be The Conqueror", which is similar to the "S.B.T.C." that was signed on the ransom note :shrug:

You know, I don't know much about the content of that note, but it sounds like it was pretty disjointed and crazy. This seems to match the suspect quite well so maybe there is hope that there will finally be a conviction in this case.

gldstwmn

08-22-2006, 02:58 PM

http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/view.php?StoryID=20060822-114012-8079r

Ramsey suspect's mother tried to kill him
ATLANTA, Aug. 22 (UPI) -- The mother of a man who claims to have killed JonBenet Ramsey tried to kill him when he was very young, a friend of the family said in Georgia.

George McCrary, who says he has known Wexford Karr, father of suspect John Karr, for 40 years, said the suspect's mother, Patricia Elaine Adcock, "made a big round donut (of kindling) and put him in the middle of it" when he was a baby, ABC News reported Tuesday.

"She just boxed the little baby in and tried to light it," McCrary said, but John's older brother Michael "came running in just before she got the flame to the flammable material."

Adcock was committed to a mental institution and the marriage broke up. She died in 2000.

McCray told ABC the event had lasting effects on John Karr.

"From the time his mother tried to kill him -- he's been out-and-out paranoid that someone's going to try and kill him or take advantage of him," McCrary told ABC News. "He needs a psychiatrist worse than anyone I've ever met in my life."

gldstwmn

08-22-2006, 03:00 PM

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_4934911,00.html

Handwriting expert points finger at Karr
'At least a dozen traits' link ransom note and yearbook, he says

By Lou Kilzer, Rocky Mountain News
August 22, 2006
A well-known national handwriting expert said Monday he is 99.9 percent certain John Mark Karr wrote the ransom note found near the scene of JonBenet Ramsey's murder.
"Most guys are riding the fence," said Curt Baggett, the Texas-based co-founder of the School of Forensic Document Examination. "But there are at least a dozen traits that match up perfectly, when comparing a (high school) yearbook signed by Karr and the ransom note."

Some of those traits are fairly common, while others are rare, he said. That there are so many similarities pushes the odds up into the seven digits.

To put it another way, Baggett said, the "chances are a million-to- one" that someone other than Karr wrote the ransom note.

The issue of handwriting could be critical. If DNA evidence in the 10-year-old case proves inconclusive, what might most connect a killer to the scene is the ransom note found on a stairway in the Ramseys' Boulder home on Dec. 26, 1996.

Other experts are less certain than Baggett about the note's origin, and they expect competing testimony should the case ever go to trial.

Handwriting expert Peggy Walla, also from Texas, said the issue is burning up the Internet as experts write back and forth.

"There are groups of us that are working on this internationally," she said. "We have little arguments, like 'no, I don't see this and I see that.' "

Walla said she studied under Baggett and that he is regarded as one of the nation's top handwriting authorities. Baggett said he has provided expert testimony in court cases in all 50 states.

Boulder police almost immediately suspected John and Patsy Ramsey in the death of their 6-year-old daughter, placing them under an "umbrella of suspicion."

Experts later ruled out John Ramsey as the writer of the note, but some questions remained concerning Patsy Ramsey.

Last week, police in Thailand said Karr confessed to the slaying. He was expelled from the country, arriving in California late Sunday night, and he is now in a Los Angeles jail awaiting extradition to Colorado.

Lining up behind Baggett in his assessment is his son, Bart, who is president of Handwriting University, an organization that trains and certifies handwriting experts.

"There are a lot of similarities," Bart Baggett said from his offices in Los Angeles. "Quite a few, actually. Significant similarities."

"When I saw the yearbook, it was just shocking. It was wow! (The similarities) are more than just chance. I would definitely lean toward Karr being the author of this note."

Still, he said he would like to see originals and a lot more samples from Karr before sticking his head out too far.

"We do most of our business by fax," he said. "Usually you can tell. But this case has so much weighing on it. It would be great to get more samples."

He said he is withholding a final verdict until he gets the writing under a microscope.

Document examiner Don Lehew also is staking part of his reputation on saying Karr is the likely writer of the Ramsey ransom note, based on samples from the yearbook.

"And that's not something you go off half-cocked about because it will come back and bite you," Lehew said.

One person who could find himself on the other side from the Baggetts and Lehew is Honolulu document examiner Reed Hayes, author of a textbook on forensic handwriting analysis.

"I do see a few similarities between the writing in the yearbook and the so-called ransom note, but not enough that I would identify him as the writer.

"In fact, I would lean more toward him not being the writer."

Hayes said he is very conservative in making handwriting matches.

Ronald Morris, a Virginia-based expert who spent 23 years as a document examiner with the Secret Service, said everyone is getting ahead of themselves. He said making conclusions without seeing the actual document is "absolute BS."

He said faxes or newspaper reproductions are two-dimensional, and that actual documents are in 3-D - meaning the amount of pressure a person applies to the pen and the actual dimensions of the lettering are critical in forming an opinion.

Lehew said he, too, would like to see the originals, but "I don't think the FBI is going to give them to me."

What seems clear, Texas expert Walla and others said, is that there are more similarities between Karr's yearbook and the ransom note than any that supposedly linked JonBenet's mother to the case.

Is there a match with Karr?

Said Walla: "I would say this guy is pretty damn close."

But even those who are leaning hard toward the conclusion that Karr's yearbook writing is quite similar to the ransom note, say his later writing on a job application bore almost no similarities.

"His handwriting has changed considerably since the yearbook," said Walla.

Curt Baggett agreed.

"We did not find similarities on the application," he said.

The 12 points of similarity that Curt Baggett notes included the writing of the small letters "a" and "f" - which he said included "a very unusual trait."

The letter "t" was crossed in the same place and the majority were crossed on the right.

Curt Baggett said he isn't concerned that he has taken the lead on the identification of Karr as the ransom note's author.

"It takes guts to make a decision," he said. "Most people want to wait and see."

estranged4life

08-22-2006, 04:47 PM

But even those who are leaning hard toward the conclusion that Karr's yearbook writing is quite similar to the ransom note, say his later writing on a job application bore almost no similarities.

"His handwriting has changed considerably since the yearbook," said Walla.

Curt Baggett agreed.

"We did not find similarities on the application," he said.

The 12 points of similarity that Curt Baggett notes included the writing of the small letters "a" and "f" - which he said included "a very unusual trait."

The letter "t" was crossed in the same place and the majority were crossed on the right.

a report that some handwriting expert said Karr's handwriting wasnt a match, then another said it was.

Another news-talking-head wondered it Karr may have changed his handwriting to emulate that of the person who wrote the ransom note.

The one thing that always puzzled me about the ransom note:

The ransom amount of $118,000

Seems more than coincidental that the $118,000 figure is the exact amount that Jon Ramsey would make as a bonus through his business.

Who exactly knew that amount besides Jon Ramsey?

Rickypt

08-22-2006, 06:18 PM

a report that some handwriting expert said Karr's handwriting wasnt a match, then another said it was.

Another news-talking-head wondered it Karr may have changed his handwriting to emulate that of the person who wrote the ransom note.

I'm sorry, but they are all basically pulling stuff out of their rears at this point. Meaning the news folks.

Rickypt

08-22-2006, 06:22 PM

:laugh: That woman kills me! She's fun to watch actually.

She is in small doses. I love how she asks her guest a question, he/she gets about three words out, Grace interrupts to say why they are wrong, and they she screams "and I don't see anything funny about this either".

irishgrl

08-22-2006, 06:46 PM

irishgrl

08-22-2006, 06:47 PM

a report that some handwriting expert said Karr's handwriting wasnt a match, then another said it was.

Another news-talking-head wondered it Karr may have changed his handwriting to emulate that of the person who wrote the ransom note.

The one thing that always puzzled me about the ransom note:

The ransom amount of $118,000

Seems more than coincidental that the $118,000 figure is the exact amount that Jon Ramsey would make as a bonus through his business.

Who exactly knew that amount besides Jon Ramsey?

sounds like Im not the only person who suspects there is more to John Ramsey than meets the eye....:distress:

Rickypt

08-22-2006, 07:31 PM

The one thing that always puzzled me about the ransom note:

The ransom amount of $118,000

Seems more than coincidental that the $118,000 figure is the exact amount that Jon Ramsey would make as a bonus through his business.

Who exactly knew that amount besides Jon Ramsey?

This is why the Karr thing doesn't make sense. How would he know about that amount? Yet, if John Ramsey were involved, why would he be so stupid as to use the same amount as his bonus?

The whole thing is seriously bizarre. If Karr is indeed guilty, I wouldn't be surprised if it is revealed there is a link between him and John Ramsey.

estranged4life

08-22-2006, 07:50 PM

sounds like Im not the only person who suspects there is more to John Ramsey than meets the eye....:distress:

I have always believed Jon Ramsey has had some type of involvement...Don't know why, but I follow my hunches.

amber

08-23-2006, 12:04 AM

So neither of you prejudged the mother just a little because of the pag. stuff :shrug:

I didn't. I think the Dad looks creepy, but I never really thought they did it. I didn't see much of a motive. And least of all I thought Patsy did it. I mean, spending so much time on your daughter, putting her in pageants, etc. - it may not be the best thing, but to me it still is an expression of love. You don't spend that much time/effort on something that is disposable to you.
Although this new 118,00 dollar thing with the dad is odd.

Anyway, I've been following this thread, and I just skimmed it again - but maybe someone can help me - didn't the DNA not match Karr? :confused:

I still think it's that weird guy who committed suicide, and had childgirl porn, and who's boot mark was outside the house, by the window. But what do I know, I just saw that on TV.

BTW, to address why people are fascinated - I'd be just as fascinated if I saw the same story about a poor dark cute girl - but the likelihood of me seeing that in the media seems slim to none. Also, I hate pedophiles, and so am always interested, wanting to know the why of it, and how to stop it.

I think the facts that Jonbenet was a very cute little girl, and it happened on Xmas, made the media pay attention. Did the media also pay attention not just because of attractiveness of the victim (I think the media will always put the most attractive person possible in the spotlight), but also because of the neighborhood it happened in? Undoubtedly. Did I care about that? No. I didn't even really follow the case when it happened. And I wasn't more fascinated b/c she was in pageants, or white, or rich. I duly noted that the pageants may not be the best idea, but again, if I saw a like story in the media about a different kind of girl, I would be as interested.

I certainly wasn't fascinated by it, as far as I can tell when I gather news, the same thing happens every day, every where. Sad, but true.

gldstwmn

08-23-2006, 12:51 PM

skcin

08-23-2006, 01:01 PM

http://www.denverpost.com/jonbenet/ci_4225178

Officials mum about Karr transfer

snip

Today, Quientana Ray, who married Karr when she was 13, told ABC's "Good Morning America" in a pre-recorded interview that Karr was controlling and used to tell her about fantasies he had about little girls.
"I was drugged and things were done to me without me having any idea," said Ray, who is now married with a 4-month old child.

Her parents, Melissa and Larry Shotts, said they also discovered letters Karr wrote to their daughter that were signed "S.B.T.C." - the same initials found on a ransom note left in the Ramseys' home. They did not show the letters during the interview and it wasn't clear if they still had them.

My mom told me about his marriage to the 13 year old (I think he was 17 or 19 at the time?) Did the parents consent? Was this a legal marriage? Whether he killed JonBenet or not, he's a sicko. Did I hear correctly that he married his other wife (the one who's insisting he has an alibi) when she was 15 or 16?

SuzeQuze

08-23-2006, 01:15 PM

My mom told me about his marriage to the 13 year old (I think he was 17 or 19 at the time?) Did the parents consent? Was this a legal marriage? Whether he killed JonBenet or not, he's a sicko. Did I hear correctly that he married his other wife (the one who's insisting he has an alibi) when she was 15 or 16?

If the source was correct, I heard this on AAR, he would not allow that wife to birth her twins in a hospital because he didn't want a doctor "ogling" her. So their twins died at birth.

DavidMn

08-23-2006, 02:25 PM

If the source was correct, I heard this on AAR, he would not allow that wife to birth her twins in a hospital because he didn't want a doctor "ogling" her. So their twins died at birth.EWW, that's creepy!:eek:

irishgrl

08-23-2006, 02:29 PM

how was it he escaped criminal charges? sounds to me like he was potentially responsible for the twins' death?

strandinthewind

08-23-2006, 02:29 PM

If the source was correct, I heard this on AAR, he would not allow that wife to birth her twins in a hospital because he didn't want a doctor "ogling" her. So their twins died at birth.

I knew several guys in college who could not stand it when their girlfriends went to the doctor for this very reason. I could not believe they were that idiotic - because, and ladies please back me up here, it is oh so sexy to be in the stirrups :rolleyes:

skcin

08-23-2006, 03:48 PM

I knew several guys in college who could not stand it when their girlfriends went to the doctor for this very reason. I could not believe they were that idiotic - because, and ladies please back me up here, it is oh so sexy to be in the stirrups :rolleyes:

Makes me hot. :shrug:

strandinthewind

08-23-2006, 03:49 PM

Makes me hot. :shrug:

To quote my last geriatric partner - this may feel a little cold :cool:

That's what happens when they are on an iron lung and you have the power turned off :wavey:

skcin

08-23-2006, 03:51 PM

To quote my last geriatric partner - this may feel a little cold :cool:

SHUT. UP. :shocked:

strandinthewind

08-23-2006, 03:52 PM

SHUT. UP. :shocked:

GOTCHA - BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

strandinthewind

08-28-2006, 02:56 PM

skcin

08-28-2006, 02:58 PM

fron cnn.com

DNA found on JonBenet Ramsey's body does not match sample DNA from suspect John Mark Karr, Denver, Colorado's KUSA television station reports.

As I have always thought - there is something not right here.

I'm not surprised, it all seemed too odd. But WTF were they (and by "they", I'm not sure who I mean) thinking by getting the media involved so early? Before they really knew anything? And the police here in the U.S. (Boulder, CO?) seemed to think they had enough to charge him, yet the DNA wasn't in yet AND they apparently didn't bother to check where he was that day she died? I mean, wtf?!?!

As soon as I saw him, the thing that struck me as odd was his comment: "I was with Jon Benet when she died." He never said he killed her to the media (that I know of.) It was as if he were implying they had some sort of "connection" - does that make sense? Like, he never knew her or met her or anything, but with his obsession in the case, he felt like he did? Blergh, he makes me sick.

DrummerDeanna

08-28-2006, 03:00 PM

I'm not surprised, it all seemed too odd. But WTF were they (and by "they", I'm not sure who I mean) thinking by getting the media involved so early? Before they really knew anything?

Well they're falling back on the fact that Karr supposedly knows details that are not known to the public, including info that was only known to the medical examiner about JonBenet's body....

So they're apparently looking into other things - he's appearing in court this afternoon - but still hasn't been charged!

estranged4life

08-28-2006, 03:02 PM

NBC affiliate KUSA in Denver cites two sources for its report

BREAKING NEWS
MSNBC News Services

BOULDER, Colo. - KUSA, a television station in Denver, reported Monday that two sources said the DNA sample taken from John Mark Karr is not a match with the DNA found on JonBenet Ramsey's body when she was slain in 1996.

Samples of Karr's saliva and hair were taken in Boulder after his arrival on Thursday, KUSA, an NBC affiliate, reported. Those samples were tested over the weekend at the Denver Police Department's Crime lab, KUSA reported.

Earlier Monday, an attorney for Karr demanded that the state turn over all evidence related to DNA in the case.

Among other things, Seth Temin's court filing asked for a clear description of any biological evidence, including how much is left and how it is being stored.

"Eventually in this case, a court will have to analyze the admissibility of DNA evidence and its alleged statistical results," the public defender wrote. "It appears that more than one laboratory handled or had custody of samples subjected to testing in this case and more than one expert has evaluated the samples and testing results."

Karr was scheduled to be in court Monday afternoon for a hearing expected to last only a few minutes - long enough for the judge to advise him of his rights and charges against him.

Temin has already challenged the results of any DNA testing involving his client, saying it was illegally obtained. Prosecutors have not confirmed if they performed DNA testing on Karr.

Aggressive defense
Temin and Steve Jacobson, a retired public defender, spent about three hours at the jail Sunday and declined to answer questions as they left. Temin has been aggressive in his short time on the case, winning approval of a gag order and making sure prosecutors and anyone else comes through him before talking with Karr.

He also joined prosecutors in opposing media requests to unseal the arrest affidavit, using capital letters to spell out his contention that releasing the details would violate Karr's right to a fair trial.

Jacobson is considered a DNA specialist, and DNA could be one of the major issues should Karr go to trial. Jacobson's name wasn't listed on Monday's court filing, but it focused on the rules and procedures of DNA testing, right down to definitions of false positives and "multi-probe genotypes."

DNA key, experts say
The best-case scenario for prosecutors would be slam-dunk DNA evidence linking Karr to the Ramsey's former home, where JonBenet's beaten and strangled body was found by her father on Dec. 26, 1996.

Without it, experts say, it's much more difficult to build a strong murder case against the 41-year-old Karr, who has said he was there when the girl died but stopped short of an outright confession.

"In this day and age of shows like 'CSI' jurors not only want forensic evidence before they will convict a person, they demand it," said Robert Hirschhorn, a jury consultant based in Dallas.

Forensics expert Henry Lee and former prosecutor Bob Grant, both involved in the Ramsey investigation, have said some of the DNA collected at the scene was mixed or contaminated.

Investigators have said DNA was found in blood spots on JonBenet's underwear, but a Ramsey family attorney said two years ago it didn't match any of the 1.5 million samples in an FBI database at the time. Other DNA recovered under the girl's fingernails is degraded, Grant said.

Evidence includes garrote, ransom note
Other physical evidence includes a ransom note, the garrote used to strangle the girl, a boot print found outside the Ramsey house and some indications an intruder could have entered through a basement window.

JonBenet's parents, John and Patsy Ramsey, were initial targets of a grand jury investigation that ended with no indictments. Patsy Ramsey died in June after learning authorities had turned their attention to Karr, who was living in Thailand when he was detained earlier this month.

Scott Robinson, a Denver attorney familiar with the case, said prosecutors may end up attacking the police investigation for the alleged contamination of the DNA evidence.

Prosecutors can overcome police mistakes with solid work, said Grant, a former Adams County district attorney who served as an adviser on the case in the 1990s.

"I've never seen a case in trial where the defense didn't find something to attack the investigation about in terms of technical investigative techniques, and I've never seen an investigation that was perfect," Grant said. "If there's DNA able to be matched to him, then the mistakes are of little or no consequence."

NBC News affiliate KUSA in Denver and The Associated Press contributed to this report.

DrummerDeanna

08-28-2006, 03:07 PM

I just saw this while putting together my first newscast:

9NEWS has confirmed from two sources that the DNA sample taken from John Mark Karr is not a match with the foreign DNA found on JonBenet Ramsey's body when she was murdered in 1996. 9NEWS has also learned the Boulder County District Attorney's office will not file charges against Karr in connection with the Ramsey case.

gldstwmn

08-28-2006, 03:10 PM

Jesus Christ. No one will ever believe the DA's office about this case again.

mikeschmike

08-28-2006, 03:13 PM

So if you're ever in a dire need to off someone, CO is apparently the place to do it. :laugh: Seriously though, what a bunch of morons. Could they possibly mess this case up any more?

gldstwmn

08-28-2006, 03:14 PM

So if you're ever in a dire need to off someone, CO is apparently the place to do it. :laugh: Seriously though, what a bunch of morons. Could they possibly mess this case up any more?

We'll see. :laugh:

Livia

08-28-2006, 04:15 PM

Did he just want a free trip back to America? :shrug:

irishgrl

08-28-2006, 04:24 PM

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Colorado prosecutors will not charge schoolteacher John Mark Karr with the murder of 6-year-old JonBenet Ramsey after tests showed his DNA does not match DNA found in her underwear, Karr's attorney said on CNN.

"The warrant on Mr Karr has been dropped by the district attorney. They're not proceeding with this case," Karr's lawyer, Seth Temin, said on CNN.

So now, he gets extradited to CA for charges pending against him in Petaluma presumably.......

strandinthewind

08-28-2006, 04:31 PM

So now, he gets extradited to CA for charges pending against him in Petaluma presumably.......

Perhaps - but note he never commented on that case, so where is the evidence? I think that is correct, but have not read anything. Again, I think he is conniving and planned this from the get go -- I also think he knows who killed that poor little girl.

DrummerDeanna

08-28-2006, 05:39 PM

^^

There is only one article I've found saying that he is now awaiting extradition to California - it was I think Rocky Mountain News....I've looked as so many sites I can't remember....

estranged4life

08-28-2006, 05:49 PM

^^

There is only one article I've found saying that he is now awaiting extradition to California - it was I think Rocky Mountain News....I've looked as so many sites I can't remember....

just reported that extradition papers from Petaluma have been sent and should be received/processed within 24 hours:

Karr cleared in JonBenet Ramsey case

DNA of suspect in murder no match, but he faces child porn charges in Calif.

BOULDER, Colo. - Prosecutors abruptly dropped their case against John Mark Karr in the slaying of JonBenet Ramsey on Monday, saying DNA tests failed to put him at the crime scene despite his repeated insistence he killed the 6-year-old beauty queen.

The move came just a week and a half after the 41-year-old schoolteacher was arrested in Thailand and put on a plane to the U.S. in what was regarded as a remarkable break in the decade-old murder mystery that had cast suspicion on JonBenet's parents.

Karr, 41, will be held in custody by the Boulder County sheriff's office pending extradition to Sonoma County, Calif., to face child pornography charges dating to 2001. Earlier in the day, the sheriff's department announced Karr had been released.

Sheriff Joe Pelle said Karr will be held in the same jail cell where he's been since last week. He described Karr as "polite and cooperative."

Boulder County District Attorney Mary Lacy's office did not return repeated calls from The Associated Press. A news conference was scheduled for 10 a.m. MT Tuesday.

Defense 'deeply distressed'
"The warrant on Mr. Karr has been dropped by the district attorney," public defender Seth Temin said outside the jail, a few hours before he was cleared in the Ramsey case. "They are not proceeding with the case."

"We're deeply distressed by the fact that they took this man and dragged him here from Bangkok, Thailand, with no forensic evidence confirming the allegations against him and no independent factors leading to a presumption that he did anything wrong," Temin said.

Earlier in the day, Denver's KUSA, citing two sources close to the investigation, said that hair and saliva taken from Karr in Boulder after his arrival last week were tested over the weekend at the Denver police crime lab and that he was ruled out as the source of the DNA taken from the crime scene. Prosecutors later confirmed that.

The schoolteacher's arrest in Thailand a week and a half ago was seen as a surprise break in the decade-old murder mystery that had cast suspicion over JonBenet's parents. But inconsistencies in Karr's account immediately raised suspicions that he might be an obsessed follower of the case who confessed to a crime he didn't commit.

Christmas whereabouts
Among other things, Karr's relatives insisted that he was with them, celebrating Christmas in Georgia and Alabama, around the time the child beauty queen was found strangled and beaten at her Boulder home on Dec. 26, 1996. They said that if Karr had not been with his family at Christmas, they would have certainly remembered it.

In an interview with the media in Thailand, Karr said that he was with JonBenet when she died and that her death was an accident. Asked if he was innocent, he said no.

In an interview Monday with MSNBC's Rita Cosby, Gary Harris, who had been spokesman for the Karr family, said of the DNA: "I knew it wouldn't match."

Karr has been "obsessed with this case for a long time. He may have some personality problems, but he's not a killer," Harris said. "He obsesses. He wanted to be a rock star one time. ... He's a dreamer. He's the kind of guy who wants to be famous."

Ramsey family attorney Lin Wood had no immediate comment.

© 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

gldstwmn

08-28-2006, 07:09 PM

So now, he gets extradited to CA for charges pending against him in Petaluma presumably.......

Someone else was saying that those charges were dropped.

gldstwmn

08-28-2006, 07:09 PM

I also think he knows who killed that poor little girl.

I think that is entirely possible.:nod:

strandinthewind

08-28-2006, 07:15 PM

I think that is entirely possible.:nod:

The emails about the death scene are very graphic - and very almost staged - as if he was appeasing someone, likely the murderer.

Then, they were unable to get the DNA in Thailand (convenient wasn't it :shrug: ) - then, they don't take the DNA in California - he must go to Col. - that makes no sense.

This case is just so bizarre.

irishgrl

08-28-2006, 09:19 PM

Someone else was saying that those charges were dropped.

I dont think so :shrug: Unless its past the statute of limitations? I haven't heard anything about charges being dropped, and Brian's article says he's being held pending extradition?

gldstwmn

08-28-2006, 10:04 PM

I dont think so :shrug: Unless its past the statute of limitations? I haven't heard anything about charges being dropped, and Brian's article says he's being held pending extradition?

Yep, it looks like he will be extradited:

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2006/08/28/state/n171148D84.DTL

Sonoma County seeks extradition of former Ramsey suspect
By MARCUS WOHLSEN, Associated Press Writer

Monday, August 28, 2006

Sonoma County prosecutors took the highly unusual step Monday of seeking the extradition of John Mark Karr on child pornography charges after the case against him for JonBenet Ramsey's murder collapsed.

Karr was arrested in Petaluma in 2001 and pleaded not guilty to five misdemeanor counts of possession of child pornography. But he fled before he could be tried and still faces an outstanding warrant here.

"We filed this case against Mr. Karr in 2001 and the same merits in proceeding with the case then, still exist today," Sonoma County District Attorney Stephan Passalacqua said in a statement Monday. "Defendants convicted of possessing child pornography are required to register with local authorities as sex offenders; Mr. Karr should be no exception."

An extradition hearing was scheduled for 3 p.m. PDT Tuesday in Boulder, Colo., but the DA said Karr's appearance in Sonoma County was not expected until the first or second week in September.

The DA's office and the Sonoma County Sheriff's Department did not return calls seeking further comment.

Prosecutors in Colorado abruptly dropped their case against Karr in the slaying of JonBenet Ramsey, saying DNA tests failed to put him at the crime scene despite his insistence he sexually assaulted and strangled the 6-year-old beauty queen.

The 41-year-old schoolteacher will be kept in jail in Colorado until he can be sent to California to face the child pornography charges.

Don Steier, a defense attorney who has been involved in high-profile sex crimes cases, said states may seek extradition of suspects from other states in both misdemeanor and felony cases, but extradition is seldom invoked for misdemeanors.

"I've never seen extradition on a misdemeanor," said Steier, who has represented priests in a molestation case involving the Los Angeles Catholic Archdiocese.

"I've got clients in other states, even other countries, (prosecutors) know where they are, and I've never seen anybody make an effort," he said. "Under the law, you can do that, but it's rarely, rarely done."

If convicted in Sonoma County, Karr could face a maximum of one year in prison and $2,500 on each count, Steier said.

Karr's flight before trial would also be a misdemeanor, because the underlying charge of child-pornography is a misdemeanor, Steier said.

And there is no statute of limitations because Sonoma County charged him, essentially freezing the clock, he said.

Marie Case, a criminal defense lawyer who briefly represented Karr in the California case, said Sonoma County probably had two motivations: to convict Karr and thereby get him on a state list of sex offenders; and to avoid the appearance of dropping the ball on the case.

"The man has garnered worldwide attention," Case said. "If Sonoma County doesn't step up to the plate, this man vanishes into thin air."

The enormous publicity surrounding Karr is likely to be a factor in prosecutors' handling of the child porn case, said Pete Kossoris, a former Ventura County prosecutor.

"They'll certainly be more inclined to give the case special attention and put one of their best attorneys on the case," Kossoris said. "They will want to seek the maximum sentence or something close to it."

SuzeQuze

08-29-2006, 07:46 AM

Possessing child-pornography is a misdemeanor? That seems wrong to me and it should be categorized as a more serious crime IMO.

Rickypt

08-29-2006, 09:04 AM

Did he just want a free trip back to America? :shrug:

That's one very clever way of getting a free trip, complete with business class, prawns, and champagne!

As for the California charges, they said they were going to drop them in favor of the more serious murder charge, but they obviously held out and waited.

Rickypt

08-29-2006, 09:06 AM

JazmenFlowers

08-29-2006, 09:32 AM

Isn't it a crime to make a false confession and impede an investigation? I thought there would be charges on that. Although I'm sure Boulder DA would like to get him as far away from her as possible and hope that people forget all this.
I could be wrong, but I think his emails were what lead the DA to him and they claimed they couldn't have gotten an untainted DNA sample from him in Thailand. why? I don't know, but that's what I've read.

when did he actually confess to murdering her? I can't remember if it was before or after he was taken into custody.

strandinthewind

08-29-2006, 09:54 AM

He sent a bunch of emails to Wendy Hutchens at first about a book Karr said he was writing about another famous murder in 1993 - that of Polly Klass, a friend of Hutchens. But, Hutchens said the emails eventually would up talking about his "perfect love" for little girls and then on to details of the Ramsey murder - though he never confessed. She also has recorded phone conversations. She turned all this over to the police. So, IMO, the police had nol choice but to arrest Karr and test the DNA :shrug:

SuzeQuze

08-29-2006, 10:14 AM

JazmenFlowers

08-29-2006, 10:50 AM

SuzeQuze

08-29-2006, 11:15 AM

this is true. I know they've been ridiculed for doing all this, at the expense of the case, but they had no real choice. it was a very possible conclusion to all this and they did what they pretty much had to.

Couldn't he have been flown home in Coach and been fed chicken?

JazmenFlowers

08-29-2006, 11:47 AM

Couldn't he have been flown home in Coach and been fed chicken?
come again? :lol:

SuzeQuze

08-29-2006, 11:49 AM

come again? :lol:

I can't believe I capitalized Coach! Speaking of posh. :lol: