Quiet World Of White & Gold?

[BlackWidow]

Curious what everyone thinks that lyric means?
"You'll become his legacy,
His quiet world of white & gold?"

[wheart]

Before I ponder this, I have to ask a question and please forgive my ignorance: did Stevie or Tom write "Insider" or both? I know, I'm a bad Stevie fan!!:shrug:

[BlackWidow]

Before I ponder this, I have to ask a question and please forgive my ignorance: did Stevie or Tom write "Insider" or both? I know, I'm a bad Stevie fan!!:shrug:
Tom wrote it for Stevie.

[sparky]

Curious what everyone thinks that lyric means?
"You'll become his legacy,
His quiet world of white & gold?"

Reference to someone's badly decorated house in the Hollywood Hills circa 1980.:thumbsup:

[amber]

I always think of quiet world of white and gold as indicating purity of some kind, perfection, also something a untouchable and away from the fray, a kind of emotional refuge. I dunno, in the context of the verse and song, I feel like I really understand what it means, but obviously white and gold isn't something literal, it's what white and gold connotes to me. Especially with the preceding "I bet you're his masterpiece. I bet you're his self control."
The lyrics are fantastic. That isn't part of my interpretation, I am just constantly amazed by this song. :p

[michelle2677]

ok. I have my own speculation about this song (which is probably totally wrong, but here goes :) )

I think it's def about stevie, but I also think it is about Liddy too.
It's mostly from the first verse-
"yeah you're the dark angel" (of course...stevie, in black..whatever *L*)
"it don't show when you break up" Stevie was the one that broke off the relationship, but she was the one that got all of the support from fans. oh..poor stevie. Look-she's writing all these sad songs, she's so depressed...blah blah.

Anyway..back to the question at hand *L*

"yeah-you'll become his legacy"
Lindsey is remembered largely to his relationship with stevie. People will remember his music, but they will also remember the legacy of the two of them

"His quiet world of white and gold" maybe the white is the love-the relationship, and the gold is the stardom..?? the money??

yeah-that's about all I have..which isn't much:shrug:

[amber]

^^^

Has anyone ever said it was about Stevie? I hadn't heard that, only that he wanted her to sing on it right away. :shrug: I can see how it could be about her, especially since it was slated to go on her album...but I don't know, it doesn't quite fit, in my mind.

[EnchantedSLN]

I imagine it meaning something along the lines of what Amber was saying. I can't really put it into words, but I think it's more about the big picture imagery of that verse than the specific lines... "he" wants to put "her" up on a shelf, i.e. to be this passive lover/supporter, and in return he'll dote on her and give her material things, but she'll still be miserable. The connotation is calm and sort of regal - "silent," "quiet," "legacy," "white and gold," - but in a melancholy way. Like she's some gorgeous exotic bird that will sit in a gilded cage and waste away.

[amber]

I imagine it meaning something along the lines of what Amber was saying. I can't really put it into words, but I think it's more about the big picture imagery of that verse than the specific lines... "he" wants to put "her" up on a shelf, i.e. to be this passive lover/supporter, and in return he'll dote on her and give her material things, but she'll still be miserable. The connotation is calm and sort of regal - "silent," "quiet," "legacy," "white and gold," - but in a melancholy way. Like she's some gorgeous exotic bird that will sit in a gilded cage and waste away.

i was thinking about that, but I can't gel how it fits with the rest of the lyrics, which seem to me to say the girl is the "dangerous" one. Is there a transfer in the middle verse? By that I mean - the first verse seems to describe the girl...then "it's a circle of deception...it's a hall of strangers...it's a cage without a key..you can feel the danger" - does that describe what the girl is getting into, or again describing being involved with the girl? And of course (depending) then the last verse seems to switch it up and describe the girl like you said...in a more passive way...

Do you think the last verse described what she became because of the effect of whoever/whatever the "circle of deception, hall of strangers, cage without a key" is?
This is hard, I prefer my vague emotional understanding, rather than trying this literal interpretation...:laugh:

The middle verse always connotes the nature of fame and money and coke (hee) to me. Not that that is what he meant, but it seems still a good description of the nature of fame...

[EnchantedSLN]

i was thinking about that, but I can't gel how it fits with the rest of the lyrics, which seem to me to say the girl is the "dangerous" one. Is there a transfer in the middle verse? By that I mean - the first verse seems to describe the girl...then "it's a circle of deception...it's a hall of strangers...it's a cage without a key..you can feel the danger" - does that describe what the girl is getting into, or again describing being involved with the girl? And of course (depending) then the last verse seems to switch it up and describe the girl like you said...in a more passive way...

Do you think the last verse described what she became because of the effect of whoever/whatever the "circle of deception, hall of strangers, cage without a key" is?
This is hard, I prefer my vague emotional understanding, rather than trying this literal interpretation...:laugh:

The middle verse always connotes the nature of fame and money and coke (hee) to me. Not that that is what he meant, but it seems still a good description of the nature of fame...

In some weird way it still fits to me. I think of the "circle of deception" verse as describing what she's getting into. It's a warning, and the speaker says he's "the one who ought to know" because he's the friend/spectator/Insider (a role he's not happy with) and can see things clearly where she cannot. The whole song is kind of bitter though, because she spurned him or at least led him on in some way when she really only wanted him to be her friend/confidant ("I've been burned by the fire/crawled trough the briars/yadda yadda"), hence the reason she is also the dangerous one. So he gives her this warning and says "fine, go with him, but I'm the one who cares and I can see it coming that this is what'll happen to you..." God, this sounds really stupid :laugh:. I don't mean to make it so literal because I don't think it is, but I don't know how else to communicate the feeling I get from it. Whatever, it's a great song, the end!

[BlackWidow]

i was thinking about that, but I can't gel how it fits with the rest of the lyrics, which seem to me to say the girl is the "dangerous" one. Is there a transfer in the middle verse? By that I mean - the first verse seems to describe the girl...then "it's a circle of deception...it's a hall of strangers...it's a cage without a key..you can feel the danger" - does that describe what the girl is getting into, or again describing being involved with the girl? And of course (depending) then the last verse seems to switch it up and describe the girl like you said...in a more passive way...

Do you think the last verse described what she became because of the effect of whoever/whatever the "circle of deception, hall of strangers, cage without a key" is?
This is hard, I prefer my vague emotional understanding, rather than trying this literal interpretation...:laugh:

The middle verse always connotes the nature of fame and money and coke (hee) to me. Not that that is what he meant, but it seems still a good description of the nature of fame...
Hi Amber!
Loved reading your thoughts on Insider.
It is just such a perfect song! Love those Lyrics!!!
I dont think it is about Stevie necessarily. Just a song he wanted to record
with her. I think it about the man's point of view (Tom). It is the ol' Love's A Hard Game To Play Theory. I think "his quiet world of white & gold"..is his secret way of coping in the aftermath of his loss..white (coke) & gold (booze)....hmmmm. You know numbing out to escape the pain.

[ELIUD]

Reference to someone's badly decorated house in the Hollywood Hills circa 1980.:thumbsup:
Yeah, what he said.

...I think "his quiet world of white & gold"..is his secret way of coping in the aftermath of his loss..white (coke) & gold (booze)....hmmmm.
But I love the symbolism in this!

[amber]

In some weird way it still fits to me. I think of the "circle of deception" verse as describing what she's getting into. It's a warning, and the speaker says he's "the one who ought to know" because he's the friend/spectator/Insider (a role he's not happy with) and can see things clearly where she cannot. The whole song is kind of bitter though, because she spurned him or at least led him on in some way when she really only wanted him to be her friend/confidant ("I've been burned by the fire/crawled trough the briars/yadda yadda"), hence the reason she is also the dangerous one. So he gives her this warning and says "fine, go with him, but I'm the one who cares and I can see it coming that this is what'll happen to you..." God, this sounds really stupid :laugh:. I don't mean to make it so literal because I don't think it is, but I don't know how else to communicate the feeling I get from it. Whatever, it's a great song, the end!

Yes, that is what I meant about the second verse...or rather, one of the two interps I was asking your opinion about. I think that friend/confidant thing is good - especially as the friend is always the Insider - they know the real story of how it would be that lovers don't - ...wait - exactly what you said in your second sentence is what I was going to say. :p But also in addition to your reason of why she's the dangerous one (she spurned him), I think the first verse connotes that she's dangerous in general for any lover - that she's very desireable but they won't know what they're getting into - she gets everything she wants, and...well, essentially the meaning of the phrase Dark Angel (something beautiful and therefore the danger (dark) is hidden).
I also always thought "It don't show when you break up" meant the girl has a certain emotional freedom (heartlessness is not right, but along those lines), she can let go of lovers easily and come out unscathed, whereas her lovers will be very scathed (:laugh: )
Along with the "Insider" view of the danger she is in that you spoke of, he also knows the dangers the lover could be in, or someone who desires her.
Now then - do you think it is about Stevie? I never got the sense that Tom wanted to date her, but I definitely think the lyrics could be an apt description of her. :shrug: But I'm sure lots of women are like that. And as far as I can tell, he would definitely be an Insider in her life. It's also hard for me to imagine that anyone wouldn't want to date Stevie - but that is bias, and wasn't he happily married?

[BlackWidow]

Yeah, what he said.


But I love the symbolism in this!
Hey Kiddo!
Thanks for the PM a few weeks ago..I tried to respond but it said your box was full (pun intended)!
I like my "white & gold" theory too!:nod: :D

[amber]

Hi Amber!
I think "his quiet world of white & gold"..is his secret way of coping in the aftermath of his loss..white (coke) & gold (booze)....hmmmm. You know numbing out to escape the pain.

Hi!
But then how would that interpretation go with the lyrics before it? If she was his masterpiece, his self control, and was going to become his legacy - he wouldn't really need "white" and "gold" as drugs. Quite the opposite, I would say.

[BlackWidow]

Hi!
But then how would that interpretation go with the lyrics before it? If she was his masterpiece, his self control, and was going to become his legacy - he wouldn't really need "white" and "gold" as drugs. Quite the opposite, I would say.
Legacy annd masterpeice go hand & hand. doesn't necessarily mean perfection or success...just that big love that mattered! the one that got away. we all have them..we choose people in life sometimes that are our biggest teachers. if you give someone your power or "self control" - that means you are weak and powerless to that person. so..not a healthy situation. the girl is dangerous..the prices paid were enormous..
"Ive been burned by the fire / crawled through the briars" people in control dont crawl. hence my "white & gold theory".....:shrug:

[amber]

^^^

Those are good points, about legacy et al, but I think the grammar of white and gold is written in a way that groups it with masterpiece, self control, and legacy - not as something different than those things. "You'll become his legacy, his quiet world of white and gold" - it's basically one sentence, one theme, with two descriptions of said theme.
I appreciate your interp, though - I agree about the big love and the effects.

[BlackWidow]

^^^

Those are good points, about legacy et al, but I think the grammar of white and gold is written in a way that groups it with masterpiece, self control, and legacy - not as something different than those things. "You'll become his legacy, his quiet world of white and gold" - it's basically one sentence, one theme, with two descriptions of said theme.
I appreciate your interp, though - I agree about the big love and the effects.
Yea..I'm open to hear everyone's interpretations!
Of course mine is dramatic...:lol: The line is gorgeous!!!!!!:rolleyes:

[EnchantedSLN]

I think the first verse connotes that she's dangerous in general for any lover - that she's very desireable but they won't know what they're getting into - she gets everything she wants, and...well, essentially the meaning of the phrase Dark Angel (something beautiful and therefore the danger (dark) is hidden). I also always thought "It don't show when you break up" meant the girl has a certain emotional freedom (heartlessness is not right, but along those lines), she can let go of lovers easily and come out unscathed, whereas her lovers will be very scathed...


That's good, I'd agree with all of that. Nice reading of the "Dark Angel/break up" part.

Now then - do you think it is about Stevie? I never got the sense that Tom wanted to date her, but I definitely think the lyrics could be an apt description of her. But I'm sure lots of women are like that. And as far as I can tell, he would definitely be an Insider in her life. It's also hard for me to imagine that anyone wouldn't want to date Stevie - but that is bias, and wasn't he happily married?

I wouldn't rule it out. At the same time I don't think it definitely is. Stevie fans are too quick to assume any song she's associated with that was written by a guy is about her. Case in point Life In The Fast Lane, which I don't think has anything to do with Stevie. I don't know what Tom has said about it, if anything. I've never heard that he wrote it for her as someone else noted, although that could mean he wrote it about her, or just as a song for her to sing. And even if it was about her, it could still just be a story. Like how Rick Vito commented in the lyric index on BuckinghamNicks.net that "Desiree" was sort of based on Stevie, but not really (http://www.buckinghamnicks.net/sn/guest/desiree.html). I don't know, the whole issue of whether Stevie & Tom had a thing has always been a curious one and a magnet for speculation. I'm not sure what my opinion is. I'm waiting for her to spill all in her autobiog (hee, fat chance.) I can see how it could fit though... do you think it's about her?

[sparky]

I think it's def about stevie, but I also think it is about Liddy too.

If I ever hear this idea coming out of Tom Petty's mouth, I will instantly climb to the top of the nearest building and toss myself off of it. On the way down, I will puke. If the fall doesn't kill me, I will hope to have choked to death on my own vomit before I hit the ground.

AMber, where have you been ?

[amber]

That's good, I'd agree with all of that. Nice reading of the "Dark Angel/break up" part.



I wouldn't rule it out. At the same time I don't think it definitely is. I don't know what Tom has said about it, if anything. I've never heard that he wrote it for her as someone else noted, although that could mean he wrote it about her, or just as a song for her to sing. And even if it was about her, it could still just be a story. Like how Rick Vito commented in the lyric index on BuckinghamNicks.net that "Desiree" was sort of based on Stevie, but not really (http://www.buckinghamnicks.net/sn/guest/desiree.html). I don't know, the whole issue of whether Stevie & Tom had a thing has always been a curious one and a magnet for speculation. I'm not sure what my opinion is, I'm waiting for her to spill all in her autobiog (hee, fat chance.) I can see how it could fit though... do you think it's about her?

Thanks. I recently saw an interview with Stevie (although it wasn't a recent interview) where she said something like "It was easy for me to break up. I always had to leave on a tour, and I could use that as an excuse." That kind of added weight in my mind to what I thought "don't show when you break up" meant, even if the song isn't about Stevie.

I can't decide. I guess if pinned down, I would have to say...nope, I don't know. Tom is so very circumspect, and no one, including Stevie or anyone else, has never even hinted they had anything other than a musical relationship. (right? You know more stuff). It sure does remind me of Stevie, though. Maybe it is based on her, but he wrote the "I'm the one you couldn't love" and all those parts not from his own perspective? you know, just to make the song more evocative and personal sounding? That doesn't really jibe, though.
But, if it was about her, who would the other guy be? :confused: Were they both working with Iovine right then? That doesn't make sense. I was thinking maybe the other guy wasn't a specific guy, just a general guy - but the language seems more specific to me.
My feelings about Tom and his personality lead me to believe it isn't about her. Only just. I never even started thinking about it in connection to Stevie until recently.
Also, do you think Stevie wouldn't have dated Petty if he wanted her too? Doesn't it seem like she would have? It appears she was attached to his hip for a few years there. :laugh: I think he was married at the time?

[David]

If I ever hear this idea coming out of Tom Petty's mouth, I will instantly climb to the top of the nearest building and toss myself off of it. On the way down, I will puke. If the fall doesn't kill me, I will hope to have choked to death on my own vomit before I hit the ground.What do we know for certain? We know from that old documentary on the Heartbreakers that Stevie asked Tom to write her a song for her first solo album & so he wrote "Insider." She decided for some reason not to sing the melody but to sing a harmony to Tom's lead vocal. Tom & Jimmy both loved the track with the harmony so much that Tom gave off a very forlorn vibe about giving the song away. Stevie noticed this vibe & told Tom, "You keep it. I can tell you love it. Just write me another song." Tom thought how cool it was for her to give it back to him.

Stevie said that she wanted to meet Tom Petty in 1979. I guess he went backstage at the Forum when the Mac played there in December. Stevie talked to Jimmy at that point about wanting him to produce her solo album if she ever started working on it. Stevie later said she didn't necessarily want Tom to write her a ballad for her album because she had plenty of ballads--she wanted him to write her more of a rocker, so she was glad to get "Stop Dragging My Heart Around." Stevie & Heartbreakers recorded some stuff during tour breaks in 1980 & again in 1981.

If Tom wrote "Insider" in 1980 or so, he & Stevie were still fairly new to each other. I don't think he knew Lindsey at all at that point. In fact, he admits to having had an anti-Fleetwood Mac bias at the time, agreeing with the newer acts & the punks that Fleetwood Mac was corporate & bland. The Heartbreakers were on the fringes in 1979 & 1980, despite having had a big hit with "Damn the Torpedoes," so it makes sense they wouldn't have thought much of Fleetwood Mac. In fact, I can see that anti-Mac bias spilling over into his tentative relationship with Stevie: she wanting a closer friendship & working relationship, & he & his Heartbreakers essentially wanting to distance themselves from this wacky, spacy woman.

I think the Heartbreakers grew to like Stevie a lot, but I bet it took awhile. And I doubt Tom Petty was writing songs about the Buckingham/Nicks relationship. I figure he probably didn't care at all about that.

[amber]

If I ever hear this idea coming out of Tom Petty's mouth, I will instantly climb to the top of the nearest building and toss myself off of it. On the way down, I will puke. If the fall doesn't kill me, I will hope to have choked to death on my own vomit before I hit the ground.

AMber, where have you been ?

:lol: I honestly never connected the lyrics with Stevie until very recently, as well.

Around. :shrug: I've been reading. I noticed I would post, and no one would answer me or say anything. Also, someone called me names. So I didn't feel like posting. It's really not as fun to post in a void, with no response. Although it is more fun than if the response is someone calling you a name. :laugh:
Hey, you should go to Chico next weekend and hang out at the river with me! And the bars. :woohoo: Bring your bike, 'kay? You know the old movie Robin Hood with Errol Flynn? That was filmed in bidwell park, the biggest park west of the mississippi in Chico. You can ride your bike way, way far. The park is two blocks from my friends house. So, see you there, right? :wavey: :p

But seriously, do you have any fabulous fun planned for the holiday weekend? (The holiday being my birthday, of course! :laugh: )

[BlackWidow]

Thanks. I recently saw an interview with Stevie (although it wasn't a recent interview) where she said something like "It was easy for me to break up. I always had to leave on a tour, and I could use that as an excuse." That kind of added weight in my mind to what I thought "don't show when you break up" meant.

I can't decide. I guess if pinned down, I would have to say...nope, I don't know. Tom is so very circumspect, and no one, including Stevie or anyone else, has never even hinted they had anything other than a musical relationship. (right? You know more stuff). It sure does remind me of Stevie, though. Maybe it is based on her, but he wrote the "I'm the one you couldn't love" and all those parts not from his own perspective? you know, just to make the song more evocative and personal sounding? That doesn't really jibe, though.
But, if it was about her, who would the other guy be? :confused: Were they both working with Iovine right then? That doesn't make sense. I was thinking maybe the other guy wasn't a specific guy, just a general guy - but the language seems more specific to me.
My feelings about Tom and his personality lead me to believe it isn't about her. Only just. I never even started thinking about it in connection to Stevie until recently.
Also, do you think Stevie wouldn't have dated Petty if he wanted her too? Doesn't it seem like she would have? It appears she was attached to his hip for a few years there. :laugh: I think he was married at the time?
Yes..he was/is married.
I think she just took the high road and kept it a professional friendship!
Plus Jimmy Iovine was so there too....she was with Jimmy and he was producing both of them..too complicated. If they had both been single...MOST DEFINITELY!!!:cool:

[BlackWidow]

What do we know for certain? We know from that old documentary on the Heartbreakers that Stevie asked Tom to write her a song for her first solo album & so he wrote "Insider." She decided for some reason not to sing the melody but to sing a harmony to Tom's lead vocal. Tom & Jimmy both loved the track with the harmony so much that Tom gave off a very forlorn vibe about giving the song away. Stevie noticed this vibe & told Tom, "You keep it. I can tell you love it. Just write me another song." Tom thought how cool it was for her to give it back to him.

Stevie said that she wanted to meet Tom Petty in 1979. I guess he went backstage at the Forum when the Mac played there in December. Stevie talked to Jimmy at that point about wanting him to produce her solo album if she ever started working on it. Stevie later said she didn't necessarily want Tom to write her a ballad for her album because she had plenty of ballads--she wanted him to write her more of a rocker, so she was glad to get "Stop Dragging My Heart Around." Stevie & Heartbreakers recorded some stuff during tour breaks in 1980 & again in 1981.

If Tom wrote "Insider" in 1980 or so, he & Stevie were still fairly new to each other. I don't think he knew Lindsey at all at that point. In fact, he admits to having had an anti-Fleetwood Mac bias at the time, agreeing with the newer acts & the punks that Fleetwood Mac was corporate & bland. The Heartbreakers were on the fringes in 1979 & 1980, despite having had a big hit with "Damn the Torpedoes," so it makes sense they wouldn't have thought much of Fleetwood Mac. In fact, I can see that anti-Mac bias spilling over into his tentative relationship with Stevie: she wanting a closer friendship & working relationship, & he & his Heartbreakers essentially wanting to distance themselves from this wacky, spacy woman.

I think the Heartbreakers grew to like Stevie a lot, but I bet it took awhile. And I doubt Tom Petty was writing songs about the Buckingham/Nicks relationship. I figure he probably didn't care at all about that.
DAVID:
You are spot on! 100%

[amber]

Yes..he was/is married.
I think she just took the high road and kept it a professional friendship!
Plus Jimmy Iovine was so there too....she was with Jimmy and he was producing both of them..too complicated. If they had both been single...MOST DEFINITELY!!!:cool:

Especially now that David clarified the time line. Whew, I'm back to my original opinion, with no conflicting doubts! :woohoo: Thanks David! :cool:

[BlackWidow]

Especially now that David clarified the time line. Whew, I'm back to my original opinion, with no conflicting doubts! :woohoo: Thanks David! :cool:
Amber,
Ignore the jerks!
Who gave you a hard time???

[amber]

Amber,
Ignore the jerks!
Who gave you a hard time???

Doesn't matter, he knows what he did. And, like someone said on another thread, or millions of times here, everyone is allowed their own opinion. After, I gave him my opinion on why he was wrong...:laugh:

[BlackWidow]

Doesn't matter, he knows what he did. And, like someone said on another thread, or millions of times here, everyone is allowed their own opinion. After, I gave him my opinion on why he was wrong...:laugh:
I got your back......:xoxo:

[amber]

I got your back......:xoxo:

Oh, thanks. No need, though, I have my own back. :laugh:

[David]

Doesn't matter, he knows what he did. And, like someone said on another thread, or millions of times here, everyone is allowed their own opinion. After, I gave him my opinion on why he was wrong...:laugh:
If I ever find out who that was, I'll shoot that bastard.

[amber]

If I ever find out who that was, I'll shoot that bastard.

:laugh: How sweet.

[BlackWidow]

If I ever find out who that was, I'll shoot that bastard.
..and I will load the gun!

[sparky]

:lol: I honestly never connected the lyrics with Stevie until very recently, as well.

Around. :shrug: I've been reading. I noticed I would post, and no one would answer me or say anything. Also, someone called me names. So I didn't feel like posting. It's really not as fun to post in a void, with no response. Although it is more fun than if the response is someone calling you a name. :laugh:

I have been reading too. I seem to recall some spat you got into on chit chat.
Don't be self conscious, people ignore my posts all the time. Though I rarely get called names. That can actually be kind of fun.

Hey, you should go to Chico next weekend and hang out at the river with me! And the bars. :woohoo: Bring your bike, 'kay? You know the old movie Robin Hood with Errol Flynn? That was filmed in bidwell park, the biggest park west of the mississippi in Chico. You can ride your bike way, way far. The park is two blocks from my friends house. So, see you there, right? :wavey: :p

Great idea, and thanks, but my job is killing me 6 days a week. And I certainly don't need any more sun. You will love this - two people on another forum thought I was black because of that armpit picture !:laugh

But seriously, do you have any fabulous fun planned for the holiday weekend? (The holiday being my birthday, of course! :laugh: )

No plans at all. Maybe the pool.

[amber]

I have been reading too. I seem to recall some spat you got into on chit chat.
Don't be self conscious, people ignore my posts all the time. Though I rarely get called names. That can actually be kind of fun.
I'm not sure I'm self conscious, it just isn't fun.
Who ignores your posts? not me.



Great idea, and thanks, but my job is killing me 6 days a week. And I certainly don't need any more sun. You will love this - two people on another forum thought I was black because of that armpit picture !:laugh
:laugh: :laugh:
Yes!!! I've been vindicated!! Told you, RaShawn. :cool:
yeah, but it's a holiday. C'mon, it's a short flight! And, even better, the temp is going down from the 107 that it was this week to only the mid/high nineties!!!! On second thought, can I just come to your pool? That way I can avoid all the other PWT river rats and their annoying children. :laugh:

I have to see my friend's tummy tuck, though. I'm probably as excited as she is.



No plans at all. Maybe the pool.
See you there! :p
Having no plans on holidays when everyone else is running around being crowded is awesome. It's like having a quiet world of white and gold. :nod: I'm only going somewhere so I can go swimming in the sun, and if you already have that...:shrug:
You have to have a drink (margarita) Friday night and lift your glass and say, to no one, "Happy Birthday, Amber! I hope you're getting laid as I speak!" And use good tequila, I'll probably be ordering well drinks.
:wavey: :wavey:
Good to see you. :xoxo:

[amber]

Keep on posting Amber, who gives a toss about the name-callers. I've noticed only about three people (you being one of them) ever respond to my posts, maybe you're catching what I have :laugh: The worst is when people think I'm being serious when I'm kidding. I still can't believe how uptight people got when I said they were all jealous of Paris Hilton's talent in that thread about her new video :laugh: People can be weird.

:laugh: :laugh:
Oh yeah, that was hilarious.

Well, but it's just not as fun. I might as well bop around my house talking to myself, like usual. :laugh:
Obviously, I'm still posting though.
I think some of the new people just don't know some people, or understand what they are talking about. Especially if it's dry humour, like what you were doing. :laugh: (that was so funny).
Which is fine, but when even my friends don't say anything, then it is really boring. :D
Well, also there aren't as many threads I have something to say about.

[heyjupiter678]

Curious what everyone thinks that lyric means?
"You'll become his legacy,
His quiet world of white & gold?"

I've always thought that particular line was a reference to marriage. :shrug:

[Marlene 03]

"It don't show when you break up" reminds me of someone that has a lot of internal emotion----turmoil or passion on the inside, contained behavior to the rest of the world, with just a hint of what's going on beneath the exterior. Maybe that fits w/ the later lyrics about being kept apart or idealized. TP's persona seems to have that insight into her character, whereas the other guy is apparently clueless.

[amber]

^^^^

Those are both good, too! I hadn't thought of either thing. Wow, this song is deep. :laugh: That is totally what "It don't show when you break up" could mean, even though it is the opposite of what I thought before. And duh, white and gold - marriage. Even if that isn't the intent, the connection is spot on, white and gold have long been images representing marriage...

I sure wish Tower would weigh in on this one...he's good at interpretation.

[BlackWidow]

^^^^

Those are both good, too! I hadn't thought of either thing. Wow, this song is deep. :laugh: That is totally what "It don't show when you break up" could mean, even though it is the opposite of what I thought before. And duh, white and gold - marriage. Even if that isn't the intent, the connection is spot on, white and gold have long been images representing marriage...

I sure wish Tower would weigh in on this one...he's good at interpretation.
uh oh!
Could be his marriage..hmmm.....????
I like it.

[crystal baller]

I've always thought that particular line was a reference to marriage. :shrug:
that's what i've always thought that line meant too. i guess we'll never really know.

[strandinthewind]

I think the lyrics must be taken in context to wit:

I'll bet you're his masterpiece
I'll bet you're his self-control
Yeah you'll become his legacy
His quiet world of white and gold

And I'm the one who oughta know
I'm the one you left to rust
Not one of your twisted friends
I'm the one you couldn't love
________________________________________________

I think it is about a very controlling man and a woman he used. But, then I think she thinks the man never loved her no matter how perfect she was as evidenced by the second part, which is from her perspective.

This is one of the most moving lyrics to me because in a very real way, I lived it. I was the masterpiece in another quiet world of white and gold - I take that to mean a beautiful place both physically as in a nice house and mentally as in that place in your head where only you can find peace of mind. So, maybe that taints my view a little.

[michelle2677]

:lol: I honestly never connected the lyrics with Stevie until very recently, as well.

Around. :shrug: I've been reading. I noticed I would post, and no one would answer me or say anything. Also, someone called me names. So I didn't feel like posting. It's really not as fun to post in a void, with no response. Although it is more fun than if the response is someone calling you a name. :laugh:
Hey, you should go to Chico next weekend and hang out at the river with me! And the bars. :woohoo: Bring your bike, 'kay? You know the old movie Robin Hood with Errol Flynn? That was filmed in bidwell park, the biggest park west of the mississippi in Chico. You can ride your bike way, way far. The park is two blocks from my friends house. So, see you there, right? :wavey: :p

But seriously, do you have any fabulous fun planned for the holiday weekend? (The holiday being my birthday, of course! :laugh: )

ha...try having your birthday come along and you have to call your friend to start a birthday thread for you!!!! :o
Glad your back tho. Even tho I don't have a lot of time to read many posts.
No longer have the net..grrr...:)

and I do somewhat agree with everyone's posts re: insider not being about stevie/liddy, or poss even stevie at all. I just can't think of anything else that fits, so I'll just cruise on along thinking this way unless something better pops up :D

[SapphireSister]

I think the lyrics must be taken in context to wit:

I'll bet you're his masterpiece
I'll bet you're his self-control
Yeah you'll become his legacy
His quiet world of white and gold

And I'm the one who oughta know
I'm the one you left to rust
Not one of your twisted friends
I'm the one you couldn't love


Before I analyze these lyrics and put in my 2 cents I'm wondering if there is a third person in this story? There is obviously the woman, the man whose "masterpiece" she is, and then the I, as in "I'm the one who oughta know". Is the "I" person reflecting on her effect on someone else? Does anybody understand my question? Is it the man whose telling the story, the woman, and another man she's affected or is it just one man? It changes tenses from "his" to "I'm" so I'm confused...

[amber]

Before I analyze these lyrics and put in my 2 cents I'm wondering if there is a third person in this story? There is obviously the woman, the man whose "masterpiece" she is, and then the I, as in "I'm the one who oughta know". Is the "I" person reflecting on her effect on someone else? Does anybody understand my question? Is it the man whose telling the story, the woman, and another man she's affected or is it just one man? It changes tenses from "his" to "I'm" so I'm confused...

:nod:

I think we all assumed it was three people, I, him, and her. :shrug: Am I mistaken? Does anyone think otherwise?

[amber]

ha...try having your birthday come along and you have to call your friend to start a birthday thread for you!!!! :o
Glad your back tho. Even tho I don't have a lot of time to read many posts.
No longer have the net..grrr...:)

and I do somewhat agree with everyone's posts re: insider not being about stevie/liddy, or poss even stevie at all. I just can't think of anything else that fits, so I'll just cruise on along thinking this way unless something better pops up :D

That's the spirit!! :laugh:

Happy late birthday. I thought Paula started your bday thread. :confused:

[cliffdweller]

I imagine it meaning something along the lines of what Amber was saying. I can't really put it into words, but I think it's more about the big picture imagery of that verse than the specific lines... "he" wants to put "her" up on a shelf, i.e. to be this passive lover/supporter, and in return he'll dote on her and give her material things, but she'll still be miserable. The connotation is calm and sort of regal - "silent," "quiet," "legacy," "white and gold," - but in a melancholy way. Like she's some gorgeous exotic bird that will sit in a gilded cage and waste away.

I agree with this interp. I'd also like to add that it's a really sad song about a man's unrequited love for a woman who chooses a dull life of safety and security with one guy over passion and emotional fulfillment with another. And sure, she's the dark angel with a dangerous background but she's now opting for a "safe" life with another guy, she's abandoning her old life (whatever that was) for something safe and quiet ("his quiet world of white and gold"). The narrator is in love with someone who could never love him back because she wants all these other things that he can't or won't provide. You know, it kind of reminds me (thematically) of that Elvis Costello song, "Allison" in a weird way--you know that whole "I was in love with you but you just ended up being a silly girl with silly values and no passion" kind of thing.

Oh, and I don't think this song is about Stevie.

[SapphireSister]

:nod:

I think we all assumed it was three people, I, him, and her. :shrug: Am I mistaken? Does anyone think otherwise?

I never really analyzed the song that much before so it's my first time noticing it was about 3 people...

[strandinthewind]

Before I analyze these lyrics and put in my 2 cents I'm wondering if there is a third person in this story? There is obviously the woman, the man whose "masterpiece" she is, and then the I, as in "I'm the one who oughta know". Is the "I" person reflecting on her effect on someone else? Does anybody understand my question? Is it the man whose telling the story, the woman, and another man she's affected or is it just one man? It changes tenses from "his" to "I'm" so I'm confused...

I never thought of it that way. I always assumed it was two and one made a choice. I always thought though that one of them made a choice and it left the woman to rust - she's the one he couldn't love for whatever reason. So, she's the insider who has been burned by the fire.

What a song - sheebus!

[amber]

I never thought of it that way. I always assumed it was two and one made a choice. I always thought though that one of them made a choice and it left the woman to rust - she's the one he couldn't love for whatever reason. So, she's the insider who has been burned by the fire.

What a song - sheebus!
But TP is singing "I'm the Insider" and "I'm the one you couldn't love" :confused: Your interp baffles me. I always assumed it was the personal viewpoint that the grammar suggests. (Ie, Tom's)

[SapphireSister]

But TP is singing "I'm the Insider" and "I'm the one you couldn't love" :confused: Your interp baffles me. I always assumed it was the personal viewpoint that the grammar suggests. (Ie, Tom's)
I always assumed Tom was the Insider too but until today I hadn't realized there was a third person involved and I'm still not convinced that there is a third person...perhaps he is just switching pronouns but referring to the same person so "I'm the one you oughta know" is the same person as "I bet your his masterpiece". It wasn't until today I thought maybe there was another man involved. Anybody else have an opinion on if there is more than one man in this story? I haven't come to any conclusions.

We should ask some peeps in the Tom forum who analyze his writing since we're all Stevie analyzers here! Maybe they can give us some insight into his writing style.

[Marlene 03]

I think there have to be three people: a narrator, the woman, and the man spoken of in the third person, in the "his" lines. I do think that the "I'm an insider" parts could be from the woman's perspective, switching tenses or something like that. For example, "I bet you're his masterpiece" could be the narrator speaking to the woman, or about the woman, in reference to the man. But then there has to be a third to be the "him" person. So then the line could switch to the woman singing the refrain "I'm an insider," etc. In other words, maybe the narrator's not involved in the story, but is just telling it. Does that make sense at all?

[SapphireSister]

I never thought of it that way. I always assumed it was two and one made a choice. I always thought though that one of them made a choice and it left the woman to rust - she's the one he couldn't love for whatever reason. So, she's the insider who has been burned by the fire.

What a song - sheebus!

You know I never thought that maybe Stevie is the insider! Think about it, Tom initially wrote this song for Stevie (and then after recording it decided to keep it for himself) so when he wrote the lyrics "I'm an insider" he may have been talking about it from HER point of view since he was writing the song for Stevie and that never occurred to me until just now! I think you're on to something that it may be written from Stevie's (or the girl's) perspective and that totally makes sense up until the verse

"I'll bet you're his masterpiece
I'll bet you're his self-control
Yeah you'll become his legacy
His quiet world of white and gold"

because if that were the case it should be I'm his masterpiece..hmmm now I'm more conufused.

[amber]

I think there have to be three people: a narrator, the woman, and the man spoken of in the third person, in the "his" lines. I do think that the "I'm an insider" parts could be from the woman's perspective, switching tenses or something like that. For example, "I bet you're his masterpiece" could be the narrator speaking to the woman, or about the woman, in reference to the man. But then there has to be a third to be the "him" person. So then the line could switch to the woman singing the refrain "I'm an insider," etc. In other words, maybe the narrator's not involved in the story, but is just telling it. Does that make sense at all?

I understand what you mean, but I don't think it's logical. To me the grammar along with the intent of the words clearly indicate 3 people. The Insider who loves the girl and knows her well, but she won't love him, and she does go be with another guy (the third person) and that is what the whole song is lamenting. Yeah, that's why it seems so clear, because the entire song is lamenting that she won't be with him (the Insider).
But hey, rock on. :laugh:

Oh, also Sapphire, the pronouns don't support your theory of it being written from Stevie's perspective with her as the first person. Why would Stevie be telling someone "You'll become his legacy"? She would only really be able to say "You'll become her legacy", because Stevie, being a girl (ostensibly a straight one), would be lamenting the loss of a man. However, the way Stevie plays fast and loose with pronouns might support your point - except that Tom wrote it, and he doesn't play fast and loose with pronouns.

[SapphireSister]

I think there have to be three people: a narrator, the woman, and the man spoken of in the third person, in the "his" lines. I do think that the "I'm an insider" parts could be from the woman's perspective, switching tenses or something like that. For example, "I bet you're his masterpiece" could be the narrator speaking to the woman, or about the woman, in reference to the man. But then there has to be a third to be the "him" person. So then the line could switch to the woman singing the refrain "I'm an insider," etc. In other words, maybe the narrator's not involved in the story, but is just telling it. Does that make sense at all?
That makes sense that there is a narrator and that the insider lines are from the woman's perspective except that at one point the narrator says:

"And I'm the one who oughta know
I'm the one you couldn't trust
Yeah I'm the lonely silent one
I'm the one left in the dust"

So that makes him directly involved in the story, not just telling it even if the I from "I'm an insider" is the woman because the I in the verse above is different from the I in "I'm an insider".

Wow, I'm way over analyzing this! I must have something more productive to do :o

[SapphireSister]

I understand what you mean, but I don't think it's logical. To me the grammar along with the intent of the words clearly indicate 3 people. The Insider who loves the girl and knows her well, but she won't love him, and she does go be with another guy (the third person) and that is what the whole song is lamenting. Yeah, that's why it seems so clear, because the entire song is lamenting that she won't be with him (the Insider).
But hey, rock on. :laugh:
I'm open to this interpretation but are you open to the fact that Stevie could be the insider, at least on the chorus considering he wrote this song for her and initially thought she'd be singing it? Why would he write her a song from a man's perspective knowing a girl would be singing it? Just a theory...

Oh, also Sapphire, the pronouns don't support your theory of it being written from Stevie's perspective with her as the first person. Why would Stevie be telling someone "You'll become his legacy"? She would only really be able to say "You'll become her legacy", because Stevie, being a girl, would be talking about a man. However, the way Stevie plays fast and loose with pronouns might support your point - except that Tom wrote it, and he doesn't play fast and loose with pronouns.

I addressed that at 3:50 my love, here it is again:
You know I never thought that maybe Stevie is the insider! Think about it, Tom initially wrote this song for Stevie (and then after recording it decided to keep it for himself) so when he wrote the lyrics "I'm an insider" he may have been talking about it from HER point of view since he was writing the song for Stevie and that never occurred to me until just now! I think you're on to something that it may be written from Stevie's (or the girl's) perspective and that totally makes sense up until the verse

"I'll bet you're his masterpiece
I'll bet you're his self-control
Yeah you'll become his legacy
His quiet world of white and gold"

because if that were the case it should be I'm his masterpiece..hmmm now I'm more conufused.

Perhaps he wrote it changing perspecitves from the chorus to the verses?

[David]

Do you guys think it might have something to do with insider trading?

[amber]

I'm open to this interpretation but are you open to the fact that Stevie could be the insider, at least on the chorus considering he wrote this song for her and initially thought she'd be singing it? Why would he write her a song from a man's perspective knowing a girl would be singing it? Just a theory...



I addressed that at 3:50 my love, here it is again:


Perhaps he wrote it changing perspecitves from the chorus to the verses?
I understand what you wrote - the way the song ended up, the pronoun use still doesn't support that. Yes, Tom could have switched the pronouns back when he decided to sing it, but in it's final form I believe it is sung/written as a boy who loves a girl, who loves a different boy. :shrug: But if you switched all the hes to shes and vice versa, of course it would work as Stevie singing it from her perspective. Until then, I would say no. But it also seems weird for him to write a song for Stevie that has her loving a boy, who loves another girl. I mean, Stevie doesn't really write about anyone or loving someone else instead of her, and I don't think she would want to, either. :p He could have written it changing perspectives, but that kind of pronounial sloppiness doesn't remind me of any of Tom's other songs at all.
I mean, obviously in the realm of the entire universe, anything is possible, I just think some things are more likely and logical than others.

[Stephanie]

I didn't have time to ready all the relplies--I am on dial up at my parents house--but I was actually thinking about this the other day.

I think white and gold is a reference to a marriage or wedding. White dress, symbol of purity; gold band, symbol of commitment. Just my two cents. Also the part about legacy--where you take someone else's name maybe.

[BlackWidow]

I agree with this interp. I'd also like to add that it's a really sad song about a man's unrequited love for a woman who chooses a dull life of safety and security with one guy over passion and emotional fulfillment with another. And sure, she's the dark angel with a dangerous background but she's now opting for a "safe" life with another guy, she's abandoning her old life (whatever that was) for something safe and quiet ("his quiet world of white and gold"). The narrator is in love with someone who could never love him back because she wants all these other things that he can't or won't provide. You know, it kind of reminds me (thematically) of that Elvis Costello song, "Allison" in a weird way--you know that whole "I was in love with you but you just ended up being a silly girl with silly values and no passion" kind of thing.

Oh, and I don't think this song is about Stevie.
THANK YOU CLIFFDWELLER!!!! THAT MAKES SENSE NOW!!!! DUH! LOL
So..Tom is The Insider! She married a safe guy..so she remains (his legacy)..(his masterpeice)..(his self control). COOL! So.."his quiet world of white & gold" is her life now being married to the other guy!!!! MAKES TOTAL SENSE NOW WOO-HOO!!!!! THANK YOU!!!!:xoxo: :D :thumbsup:

[The Tower]

Well, Amber, I wish I knew what to say about this song- but, it's kinda like in The Wild Heart press kit when Stevie tried to explain "Gate and Garden".

The first verses and the chorus are pretty straightforward. The circle of deception and legacy verses don't really connect/make much sense to me. If some dude had Tom's Dark Angel as a prize, why would the prize then be a legacy? Especially if the Dark Angel is part of the quiet world of white and gold?

Did Tom ever talk about this song in the recently released book???

I think the clue to this song is what exactly are the hard promises he's had to live with? I think that's the key. The fact that out of all those songs on the album that phrase- "hard promises"- is picked to be the title of the album says a lot. Or maybe not. Sometimes people just pick whatever sounds good- however, I think it's odd that Stevie's level of participation in the album and the whole Insider story wouldn't have something to do with that phrase being the title. One would think it would possess more to it than just catchiness.

What are those hard promises??? The song is pretty much an enigma to me.

[strandinthewind]

I agree it is enigmatic. I also think though that the lyrics are very feminine - at least to me.

As for three people - I don't know - but a strict interpretation of it seems to indicate that.

Also - just what exactly does it mean to be an insider whose been burned by the fire?

[gldstwmn]

Do you guys think it might have something to do with insider trading?

I think it's about Michael Milken and junk bonds.

[BlackWidow]

Well, Amber, I wish I knew what to say about this song- but, it's kinda like in The Wild Heart press kit when Stevie tried to explain "Gate and Garden".

The first verses and the chorus are pretty straightforward. The circle of deception and legacy verses don't really connect/make much sense to me. If some dude had Tom's Dark Angel as a prize, why would the prize then be a legacy? Especially if the Dark Angel is part of the quiet world of white and gold?

Did Tom ever talk about this song in the recently released book???

I think the clue to this song is what exactly are the hard promises he's had to live with? I think that's the key. The fact that out of all those songs on the album that phrase- "hard promises"- is picked to be the title of the album says a lot. Or maybe not. Sometimes people just pick whatever sounds good- however, I think it's odd that Stevie's level of participation in the album and the whole Insider story wouldn't have something to do with that phrase being the title. One would think it would possess more to it than just catchiness.

What are those hard promises??? The song is pretty much an enigma to me.
Hard Promises..they made to eachother and broke..makes sense to me.
She also made a promise to the other man.
"Now I've had to live with some hard promises". It's all there.:nod:
The circle of deception is she doesn't really love the other man.:D

[BlackWidow]

I agree it is enigmatic. I also think though that the lyrics are very feminine - at least to me.

As for three people - I don't know - but a strict interpretation of it seems to indicate that.

Also - just what exactly does it mean to be an insider whose been burned by the fire?
Insider means he has learned from the inside..firsthand experience!:nod:

[strandinthewind]

Insider means he has learned from the inside..firsthand experience!:nod:

I kind of think that as well. But, I also think it has to do with being inside someone's heart and being burned there.

What a brilliant song.

[BlackWidow]

I kind of think that as well. But, I also think it has to do with being inside someone's heart and being burned there.

What a brilliant song.
Oh, I know!
Very beautiful & HAUNTING!!!!!:o

[David]

What a brilliant song.How come no one is talkinag about the chords?

I think that a hard promise is either a promise that is hard to keep (like assisted suicide or something) or a promise made in a hard & fast manner: i.e., a promise you stick to (or someone holds you to) to the letter, no matter what circumstances alter the situation. So both situations challenge our mettle.

[SapphireSister]

Do you guys think it might have something to do with insider trading?
Sure, if the trading is referring to Stevie's vagina...after all, her walls are flaming and he's been burned by the fire. :laugh: :sorry:

[SapphireSister]

I understand what you wrote - the way the song ended up, the pronoun use still doesn't support that. Yes, Tom could have switched the pronouns back when he decided to sing it, but in it's final form I believe it is sung/written as a boy who loves a girl, who loves a different boy. :shrug: But if you switched all the hes to shes and vice versa, of course it would work as Stevie singing it from her perspective. Until then, I would say no. But it also seems weird for him to write a song for Stevie that has her loving a boy, who loves another girl. I mean, Stevie doesn't really write about anyone or loving someone else instead of her, and I don't think she would want to, either. :p He could have written it changing perspectives, but that kind of pronounial sloppiness doesn't remind me of any of Tom's other songs at all.
I mean, obviously in the realm of the entire universe, anything is possible, I just think some things are more likely and logical than others.
I agree with this, I was just throwing out some other possibilites.

[miriamswell]

I think TP wrote the entire song from Stevie's perspective -- getting inside her head and imagining her life. I think the narrative voice, that is the “I,” is the narrator/Stevie talking ABOUT the dark angel, but only addressing him elliptically – she could be talking to herself, absorbed in recalling what is past, torn between sorrow and regret for herself and a sense of resentment and responsibility to whomever she is addressing. I think she is ADDRESSING whatever woman the dark angel has turned his attention to after leaving the narrator/Stevie. Thus it is the dark angel who is impervious to break up, whose world is a hall of strangers, who has a cage without a key, who left the narrator/Stevie in the dust, for whom she is not enough. The narrator/Stevie is the insider -- she has been involved with the dark angel and is somewhat the worse for wear -- a little ragged around the edges, a whole lot weary, a great deal more cynical than she ever thought herself capable. No more than one could expect after crawling through briars and fire and living those hard promises all covered in dust.
In the final stanza the narrator/Stevie addresses the next woman directly, rather than just relating her own (the narrator/Stevie’s) experience. The narrator/Stevie is saying to this woman, “I have been where you are, I have BEEN you and it never ends well:”
And I'm the one who ought to know
I'm the one you left to rust
Not one of your twisted friends
I'm the one you couldn't love
Again, there is the device of talking about the dark angel by seeming to talk TO him. When the narrator/Stevie finally addresses the next woman directly the tone is somewhere between sarcasm, mockery and pity – as though she herself had once been promised the same things about which she is now warning this next woman:
I'll bet you're his masterpiece
I'll bet you're his self-control
Yeah you'll become his legacy
His quiet world of white and gold
I think the reference to “masterpiece” and “self-control” hints at the idea of a very intense, all-consuming and ultimately destructive relationship where the female partner essentially becomes not only the center of the dark angel’s world but also his creation and to some degree his conscience – i.e. his self control. In the process of the relationship the dark angel attempts to remake the narrator/ /Stevie into an ideal – not just an ideal woman but an ideal work of art and ultimately an object which is at once both more and less than a human woman. But because she is only human, she will always fail him somehow and be discarded. There is also the implication that the dark angel will only find his own peace in creating this ideal woman. It is this very humanness that is the flaw – the dark angel is searching for an ideal; a fantasy made flesh – his quiet world of white and gold. I think in this context white and gold are metaphors for the ethereal and unattainable. For me, the imagery in this last stanza calls up the hushed, cavernous hall of some great museum filled with marble statues of impossibly beautiful woman who are forever silent and still, thousands of years after the men who made them are dust but for the evocation of greatness associated with their names.
And now I am dashing quickly back to lurking.

[SapphireSister]

I think TP wrote the entire song from Stevie's perspective -- getting inside her head and imagining her life. I think the narrative voice, that is the “I,” is the narrator/Stevie talking ABOUT the dark angel, but only addressing him elliptically – she could be talking to herself, absorbed in recalling what is past, torn between sorrow and regret for herself and a sense of resentment and responsibility to whomever she is addressing. I think she is ADDRESSING whatever woman the dark angel has turned his attention to after leaving the narrator/Stevie. Thus it is the dark angel who is impervious to break up, whose world is a hall of strangers, who has a cage without a key, who left the narrator/Stevie in the dust, for whom she is not enough. The narrator/Stevie is the insider -- she has been involved with the dark angel and is somewhat the worse for wear -- a little ragged around the edges, a whole lot weary, a great deal more cynical than she ever thought herself capable. No more than one could expect after crawling through briars and fire and living those hard promises all covered in dust.
In the final stanza the narrator/Stevie addresses the next woman directly, rather than just relating her own (the narrator/Stevie’s) experience. The narrator/Stevie is saying to this woman, “I have been where you are, I have BEEN you and it never ends well:”
And I'm the one who ought to know
I'm the one you left to rust
Not one of your twisted friends
I'm the one you couldn't love
Again, there is the device of talking about the dark angel by seeming to talk TO him. When the narrator/Stevie finally addresses the next woman directly the tone is somewhere between sarcasm, mockery and pity – as though she herself had once been promised the same things about which she is now warning this next woman:
I'll bet you're his masterpiece
I'll bet you're his self-control
Yeah you'll become his legacy
His quiet world of white and gold
I think the reference to “masterpiece” and “self-control” hints at the idea of a very intense, all-consuming and ultimately destructive relationship where the female partner essentially becomes not only the center of the dark angel’s world but also his creation and to some degree his conscience – i.e. his self control. In the process of the relationship the dark angel attempts to remake the narrator/ /Stevie into an ideal – not just an ideal woman but an ideal work of art and ultimately an object which is at once both more and less than a human woman. But because she is only human, she will always fail him somehow and be discarded. There is also the implication that the dark angel will only find his own peace in creating this ideal woman. It is this very humanness that is the flaw – the dark angel is searching for an ideal; a fantasy made flesh – his quiet world of white and gold. I think in this context white and gold are metaphors for the ethereal and unattainable. For me, the imagery in this last stanza calls up the hushed, cavernous hall of some great museum filled with marble statues of impossibly beautiful woman who are forever silent and still, thousands of years after the men who made them are dust but for the evocation of greatness associated with their names.
And now I am dashing quickly back to lurking.
Wow, that was so beautifully stated, your writing totally blew my mind (I almost got teary eyed reading the interpretation). I'm not quite sure I agree entirely with your theory but you stated it so eloquently and articulated your thoughts and feelings so well, I'm beyond impressed! Please come out of lurkdum more often, you rock! I'm still torn to be honest if the Insider is a man or a woman but you've almost swayed me back to the female side which is the idea I've been entertaining since Tom wrote this song for Stevie.

Edit: And how interesting, in your theory there are 2 women and a man as opposed to some of us thinking it was 2 men and a woman...the saga continues, I love it! I went back and read the lyrics according to your interpretation and I must admit, it's a bit far-fetched but it fits!

[amber]

I think TP wrote the entire song from Stevie's perspective -- getting inside her head and imagining her life. I think the narrative voice, that is the “I,” is the narrator/Stevie talking ABOUT the dark angel, but only addressing him elliptically – she could be talking to herself, absorbed in recalling what is past, torn between sorrow and regret for herself and a sense of resentment and responsibility to whomever she is addressing. I think she is ADDRESSING whatever woman the dark angel has turned his attention to after leaving the narrator/Stevie. Thus it is the dark angel who is impervious to break up, whose world is a hall of strangers, who has a cage without a key, who left the narrator/Stevie in the dust, for whom she is not enough. The narrator/Stevie is the insider -- she has been involved with the dark angel and is somewhat the worse for wear -- a little ragged around the edges, a whole lot weary, a great deal more cynical than she ever thought herself capable. No more than one could expect after crawling through briars and fire and living those hard promises all covered in dust.
In the final stanza the narrator/Stevie addresses the next woman directly, rather than just relating her own (the narrator/Stevie’s) experience. The narrator/Stevie is saying to this woman, “I have been where you are, I have BEEN you and it never ends well:”
And I'm the one who ought to know
I'm the one you left to rust
Not one of your twisted friends
I'm the one you couldn't love
Again, there is the device of talking about the dark angel by seeming to talk TO him. When the narrator/Stevie finally addresses the next woman directly the tone is somewhere between sarcasm, mockery and pity – as though she herself had once been promised the same things about which she is now warning this next woman:
I'll bet you're his masterpiece
I'll bet you're his self-control
Yeah you'll become his legacy
His quiet world of white and gold
I think the reference to “masterpiece” and “self-control” hints at the idea of a very intense, all-consuming and ultimately destructive relationship where the female partner essentially becomes not only the center of the dark angel’s world but also his creation and to some degree his conscience – i.e. his self control. In the process of the relationship the dark angel attempts to remake the narrator/ /Stevie into an ideal – not just an ideal woman but an ideal work of art and ultimately an object which is at once both more and less than a human woman. But because she is only human, she will always fail him somehow and be discarded. There is also the implication that the dark angel will only find his own peace in creating this ideal woman. It is this very humanness that is the flaw – the dark angel is searching for an ideal; a fantasy made flesh – his quiet world of white and gold. I think in this context white and gold are metaphors for the ethereal and unattainable. For me, the imagery in this last stanza calls up the hushed, cavernous hall of some great museum filled with marble statues of impossibly beautiful woman who are forever silent and still, thousands of years after the men who made them are dust but for the evocation of greatness associated with their names.
And now I am dashing quickly back to lurking.

I have to say, that was explained very logically. It works - though I'm not sure it's true. Compelling argument, though. :thumbsup:

[BlackWidow]

I think TP wrote the entire song from Stevie's perspective -- getting inside her head and imagining her life. I think the narrative voice, that is the “I,” is the narrator/Stevie talking ABOUT the dark angel, but only addressing him elliptically – she could be talking to herself, absorbed in recalling what is past, torn between sorrow and regret for herself and a sense of resentment and responsibility to whomever she is addressing. I think she is ADDRESSING whatever woman the dark angel has turned his attention to after leaving the narrator/Stevie. Thus it is the dark angel who is impervious to break up, whose world is a hall of strangers, who has a cage without a key, who left the narrator/Stevie in the dust, for whom she is not enough. The narrator/Stevie is the insider -- she has been involved with the dark angel and is somewhat the worse for wear -- a little ragged around the edges, a whole lot weary, a great deal more cynical than she ever thought herself capable. No more than one could expect after crawling through briars and fire and living those hard promises all covered in dust.
In the final stanza the narrator/Stevie addresses the next woman directly, rather than just relating her own (the narrator/Stevie’s) experience. The narrator/Stevie is saying to this woman, “I have been where you are, I have BEEN you and it never ends well:”
And I'm the one who ought to know
I'm the one you left to rust
Not one of your twisted friends
I'm the one you couldn't love
Again, there is the device of talking about the dark angel by seeming to talk TO him. When the narrator/Stevie finally addresses the next woman directly the tone is somewhere between sarcasm, mockery and pity – as though she herself had once been promised the same things about which she is now warning this next woman:
I'll bet you're his masterpiece
I'll bet you're his self-control
Yeah you'll become his legacy
His quiet world of white and gold
I think the reference to “masterpiece” and “self-control” hints at the idea of a very intense, all-consuming and ultimately destructive relationship where the female partner essentially becomes not only the center of the dark angel’s world but also his creation and to some degree his conscience – i.e. his self control. In the process of the relationship the dark angel attempts to remake the narrator/ /Stevie into an ideal – not just an ideal woman but an ideal work of art and ultimately an object which is at once both more and less than a human woman. But because she is only human, she will always fail him somehow and be discarded. There is also the implication that the dark angel will only find his own peace in creating this ideal woman. It is this very humanness that is the flaw – the dark angel is searching for an ideal; a fantasy made flesh – his quiet world of white and gold. I think in this context white and gold are metaphors for the ethereal and unattainable. For me, the imagery in this last stanza calls up the hushed, cavernous hall of some great museum filled with marble statues of impossibly beautiful woman who are forever silent and still, thousands of years after the men who made them are dust but for the evocation of greatness associated with their names.
And now I am dashing quickly back to lurking.
WOW..Thats a real "Long Way To Go!" :confused: :lol:

[BlackWidow]

I have to say, that was explained very logically. It works - though I'm not sure it's true. Compelling argument, though. :thumbsup:
It makes NO SENSE LOGICALLY!
Tom wrote the song and kept it for himself!
It is a Man's perspective....:thumbsup: :cool:

[BlackWidow]

Sure, if the trading is referring to Stevie's vagina...after all, her walls are flaming and he's been burned by the fire. :laugh: :sorry:
BURNIIIIINNNGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!:thumbsup: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[BlackWidow]

How come no one is talkinag about the chords?

I think that a hard promise is either a promise that is hard to keep (like assisted suicide or something) or a promise made in a hard & fast manner: i.e., a promise you stick to (or someone holds you to) to the letter, no matter what circumstances alter the situation. So both situations challenge our mettle.
good points there....

[amber]

It just occurred to me (I was reading Der Magazine) that even if Tom originally started writing it for Stevie's album, wasn't he always going to sing it with her? No matter who's album it ended up on? So, if you go with that, it is probably written from his perspective.

We're not talking about the chords because the thread title didn't say "what is the meaning of the chords in Insider" and also because chord talk is mind numbingly boring to all but a select few. Sparky is one of those select few. See below.

[sparky]

How come no one is talkinag about the chords?


Speaking of which, oh wise musical font, what the hell are they ?

Having a musical knowledge that extends only to my own noodling and songwriting I am calling it an A E and D progression in the main intro and I suspect there is an F# thrown in there somewhere in the chorus. But my guitar may be out of tune. I don't think it is, but who knows?
Who knows ?
If anyone knows, David knows.

[BlackWidow]

It just occurred to me (I was reading Der Magazine) that even if Tom originally started writing it for Stevie's album, wasn't he always going to sing it with her? No matter who's album it ended up on? So, if you go with that, it is probably written from his perspective.

We're not talking about the chords because the thread title didn't say "what is the meaning of the chords in Insider" and also because chord talk is mind numbingly boring to all but a select few. Sparky is one of those select few. See below.
That is spot on Amber!:nod:

[skcin]

I agree it is enigmatic. I also think though that the lyrics are very feminine - at least to me.




I agree. Some of Tom's most poetic, heartbreaking lyrics ever.

I don't know if I have anything to add. :shrug: I think everyone here has great theories about what this song is about (and those lines in particular.) It's like the song is too much for me to try & figure out.

[cliffdweller]

I think it's about Michael Milken and junk bonds.

:laugh: Exactly.

Now I'm sitting here laughing at the thought of Tom Petty writing a heartfelt, bittersweet song about insider trading. Love it :thumbsup:.

[SapphireSister]

It just occurred to me (I was reading Der Magazine) that even if Tom originally started writing it for Stevie's album, wasn't he always going to sing it with her? No matter who's album it ended up on? So, if you go with that, it is probably written from his perspective.
I'm not sure that he was always going to sing it with her. Does anyone know if when he wrote this song he intended for it to be a duet? It's possible but it's also possible he wrote it for her to sing solo right? If you have some evidence to support that he was always going to sing it with her please share...

We're not talking about the chords because the thread title didn't say "what is the meaning of the chords in Insider" and also because chord talk is mind numbingly boring to all but a select few. Sparky is one of those select few. See below.
Hee hee, that was cute Amber! We're also not talking about the chords because most of us are not musicians.

[SapphireSister]

I agree. Some of Tom's most poetic, heartbreaking lyrics ever.

Totally! And after this thread and trying to make sense of these Insider lyrics I have so much more respect for Tom Petty as a songwriter, he really ****ing rocks.

[amber]

I'm not sure that he was always going to sing it with her. Does anyone know if when he wrote this song he intended for it to be a duet? It's possible but it's also possible he wrote it for her to sing solo right? If you have some evidence to support that he was always going to sing it with her please share...


Hee hee, that was cute Amber! We're also not talking about the chords because most of us are not musicians.
Um... well...when he was introducing it on a recent boot, he said "I wrote this song..what around 1980, 1981? And I wanted to sing it with Stevie right away..."
:shrug:
It's more likely he wrote it for himself to sing with her. The others he wrote on her albums, SDHMA, and I Will Run to You are both duets.

[SapphireSister]

Um... well...when he was introducing it on a recent boot, he said "I wrote this song..what around 1980, 1981? And I wanted to sing it with Stevie right away..."
:shrug:
It's more likely he wrote it for himself to sing with her. The others he wrote on her albums, SDHMA, and I Will Run to You are both duets.
Yes, that makes sense. Well if he does a show in Los Angeles I will get a press pass and if I have a chance to talk to him I'll ask him for us Amber!

[amber]

Yes, that makes sense. Well if he does a show in Los Angeles I will get a press pass and if I have a chance to talk to him I'll ask him for us Amber!
Um, why don't you get two press passes, and I'll ask him? :D :woohoo: :wavey:

[BlackWidow]

Wow, that was so beautifully stated, your writing totally blew my mind (I almost got teary eyed reading the interpretation). I'm not quite sure I agree entirely with your theory but you stated it so eloquently and articulated your thoughts and feelings so well, I'm beyond impressed! Please come out of lurkdum more often, you rock! I'm still torn to be honest if the Insider is a man or a woman but you've almost swayed me back to the female side which is the idea I've been entertaining since Tom wrote this song for Stevie.

Edit: And how interesting, in your theory there are 2 women and a man as opposed to some of us thinking it was 2 men and a woman...the saga continues, I love it! I went back and read the lyrics according to your interpretation and I must admit, it's a bit far-fetched but it fits!
VERY FAR FETCHED!!!:lol:

[PenguinHead]

:laugh: :laugh: Reference to someone's badly decorated house in the Hollywood Hills circa 1980.:thumbsup:

[michelle2677]

How come no one is talkinag about the chords?

I think that a hard promise is either a promise that is hard to keep (like assisted suicide or something) or a promise made in a hard & fast manner: i.e., a promise you stick to (or someone holds you to) to the letter, no matter what circumstances alter the situation. So both situations challenge our mettle.


I always thought of "hard promises" to mean-hard to deal with. Harsh, and inflexible.

for example: A woman being in love with a man but he tells her "I will never love you"

for some reason-Meatloaf's "two out of three aint bad" comes to mind" ha ha..
whatever-that's off the topic.

also-david. I remember you saying Tom wrote this for Stevie.

this may have been discussed (sorry...still don't have time to read the whole thread-dang library!!!)

This definately COULD be from Stevie's vantage point. She could have asked him to write a song under a certain criteria. That doesn't mean that Tom necessarily knew it was about Mick, Lindsey, Fleetwood Mac, the water boy, mailman or the aliens on Mars. Artists do this all the time for movies. They are given a premise and then expand on it. O.k. this thread is causing me to lose sleep. Ha. Must....stop.....reading!!! :)

[amber]

I always thought of "hard promises" to mean-hard to deal with. Harsh, and inflexible.

for example: A woman being in love with a man but he tells her "I will never love you"

for some reason-Meatloaf's "two out of three aint bad" comes to mind" ha ha..
whatever-that's off the topic.

also-david. I remember you saying Tom wrote this for Stevie.

this may have been discussed (sorry...still don't have time to read the whole thread-dang library!!!)

This definately COULD be from Stevie's vantage point. She could have asked him to write a song under a certain criteria. That doesn't mean that Tom necessarily knew it was about Mick, Lindsey, Fleetwood Mac, the water boy, mailman or the aliens on Mars. Artists do this all the time for movies. They are given a premise and then expand on it. O.k. this thread is causing me to lose sleep. Ha. Must....stop.....reading!!! :)
I don't think Stevie tells Tom what kind of songs to write, or what they should be about. I highly doubt it.

[BlackWidow]

I don't think Stevie tells Tom what kind of songs to write, or what they should be about. I highly doubt it.
Yea...don't work that way...:distress:

[michelle2677]

I don't think Stevie tells Tom what kind of songs to write, or what they should be about. I highly doubt it.

why wouldn't he?? I have to admit I don't know that much about Tom, so if it's just not in his nature to do that, then I understand. But Stevie wrote Leather and Lace for Mr. Jennings. And I'm sure it happens every day. Was just trying to think of as many ideas as possible because in actuality-I'm totally clueless when it comes to this song. :laugh: but I still love it just the same. I think that's what makes it brilliant as well. It leaves a little mystery there. Ah-who am I kidding. If Tom AND Stevie came out and gave the meaning to every single syllable-I'd still love it:nod:

[amber]

why wouldn't he?? I have to admit I don't know that much about Tom, so if it's just not in his nature to do that, then I understand. But Stevie wrote Leather and Lace for Mr. Jennings. And I'm sure it happens every day. Was just trying to think of as many ideas as possible because in actuality-I'm totally clueless when it comes to this song. :laugh: but I still love it just the same. I think that's what makes it brilliant as well. It leaves a little mystery there. Ah-who am I kidding. If Tom AND Stevie came out and gave the meaning to every single syllable-I'd still love it:nod:

He just wouldn't. :wavey: I mean, he told her "No you write your songs yourself!" I just don't think Stevie would do that, and Tom wouldn't want her to, especially at that time. Yep.

[BlackWidow]

He just wouldn't. :wavey: I mean, he told her "No you write your songs yourself!" I just don't think Stevie would do that, and Tom wouldn't want her to, especially at that time. Yep.
AMEN SISTER!:angel:

[BlackWidow]

why wouldn't he?? I have to admit I don't know that much about Tom, so if it's just not in his nature to do that, then I understand. But Stevie wrote Leather and Lace for Mr. Jennings. And I'm sure it happens every day. Was just trying to think of as many ideas as possible because in actuality-I'm totally clueless when it comes to this song. :laugh: but I still love it just the same. I think that's what makes it brilliant as well. It leaves a little mystery there. Ah-who am I kidding. If Tom AND Stevie came out and gave the meaning to every single syllable-I'd still love it:nod:
He writes what he wants..Insider is a Man's Perspective.:nod: :D

[BlackWidow]

If I ever hear this idea coming out of Tom Petty's mouth, I will instantly climb to the top of the nearest building and toss myself off of it. On the way down, I will puke. If the fall doesn't kill me, I will hope to have choked to death on my own vomit before I hit the ground.

AMber, where have you been ?
LMFAO!!!:laugh:

[jwd]

Curious what everyone thinks that lyric means?
"You'll become his legacy,
His quiet world of white & gold?"

I always thought it was in relation to marriage or "settling down".

[BlackWidow]

I always thought it was in relation to marriage or "settling down".
Yea,
I think so too....:wavey:

[BlackWidow]

why wouldn't he?? I have to admit I don't know that much about Tom, so if it's just not in his nature to do that, then I understand. But Stevie wrote Leather and Lace for Mr. Jennings. And I'm sure it happens every day. Was just trying to think of as many ideas as possible because in actuality-I'm totally clueless when it comes to this song. :laugh: but I still love it just the same. I think that's what makes it brilliant as well. It leaves a little mystery there. Ah-who am I kidding. If Tom AND Stevie came out and gave the meaning to every single syllable-I'd still love it:nod:
That would be cool!:thumbsup:

[michelle2677]

so the big mystery is settled

He couldn't find anything else that sounded fabulous to rhyme with "self-control"

[BlackWidow]

so the big mystery is settled

He couldn't find anything else that sounded fabulous to rhyme with "self-control"
'His quiet world of white(coke) & gold(booze)":lol: :lol: :lol: